Origins: Cadgwith Anthem

Subject: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Bates from Birregurra
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM

I've been trying to find out more about the origins of the Cadgwith Anthem, so far I've found out that Cadgwith is in Cornwall, but the reference to the beauty of Cashmir seems incongruous, can anyone help please.

Cheers

Keith Maxwell

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:48 PM

See, in the DT:

CADGWITH ANTHEM  Text and tune. No source specified for either.

BEAUTY OF KASHMIR  Much shorter text from a Steeleye Span record. No tune given or previous source named.

COME FILL UP YOUR GLASSES (Robbers)  The same short text, this time a bit oddly spelled, from the same Steeleye Span record. No tune given or previous source named.

In the Forum:

Lyr req: Caves/Beauty of Kashmir  -includes some speculation on "the beauty of kashmir / cashmere".

Peter Kennedy recorded the song from the Cadgwith Fishermen's Choir in 1953; Steeleye Span appear to have recorded an arrangement based on that, though they don't seem to have bothered to credit their source. Whether it's a particularly old song I don't know, but on the whole I doubt it.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 04:23 AM

I believe that it is considered a traditional song but was devised by a group of Cadgwith residents who got together to produce a Folk Song for the town. The first record of it being performed was in 1953 by the Cornish Fishermans choir. Whether it was composed before then seems to be a matter of conjecture. It's history is rather vague. The beauty of Kashmir, refers to a flower.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:52 AM

A variety of rose I'm told.
Giok

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Marion in Cornwall
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:54 AM

In Canow Kernow, edited by Inglis Gundry, it's under the title "The Robbers' Retreat - The Cadgwith Anthem". It says it was 'Sung by a group of local fishermen at Cadgwith, 1956 and recorded by Peter Kennedy. The foot-note says:
'The singers described this song as "just given to us by the old friends gone by." There was "no music attached to it", but John Henry Jane was said to be "the first man who sang it in this bar".'

It is still sung in Cadgwith and there are still members of the Jane family living there.

Best Wishes
Marion

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:29 AM

Yet another version in the DT as THE CANDLEFORD ANTHEM, but I have failed to find a Candleford in Britain.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Cats
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM

The original song only has 2 verses. Most of the others were written in the Stable Bar of the Ring of Bells at St Issey may day 1979. The challemnge was you could not go to bed until you had written another verse. Many of the verses stil sung come from the pens of John Purdy, Jon Heslop and Dick Goddard.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM

the midi file appears to be missing

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:45 PM

Look under Lark Rise to Candleford or try this, Albion Band
Giok

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:35 PM

This too Old thread
Giok

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: 8_Pints
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

We attended a benefit night for two lifeboat men lost at sea some six years ago.

All the lifeboat fraternity from around the Cornish coast seemed to be there and of course sang this wonderful song.

My good friend Brian Pengelly of Redruth predicted that the verses would be sung at a cracking pace but the chorus would be slowed right down to luxuriate in the harmonies.

"Just like an organ!" he would say.

The Steeleye recordings don't capture this Chapel style of performance.

Pity!!!

Bob vG

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:22 PM

Given how recent the song is, the Steeleye recording may well predate that chapel style of performance...

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM

Had a girlfriend who used to say Cadgwith Anthem should be called "Botanists Gone Bad".

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM

No "History"; just a folk tale.
It was being sung in Melbourne in the late 60s, much the same as recorded later by Steeleye Span and, possibly, brought from the same source as theirs. When Steeleye Span performed in Canberra in '76 they sang it as their 'unaccompanied' item; I hadn't heard it for some years and was so carried away I joined in. Their mixer, stationed about 8m away, got rather agitated searching his desk for the channel he couldn't control but nobody else seemed to notice.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Wotcha
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:03 AM

Hi Marion!

Send regards to John.

Time to visit The Cove Inn for a Friday night session with the Cadgwith "fishermen." I highly commend this venue: folk tradition at its best. A bit of a drive since Cadgwith is one of the last stops before you get to the Lizard.

Cheers,

Brian

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Bates from Birregurra
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:37 AM

G'day all

Thanks very much for your help, the day after I posted this request, I couldn't get on to Mudcat and I've been away from home since.

I appreciate the effort you've all put in, I've now dispelled the incongruity.

Cheers folks

Keith

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:02 PM

To John 'Giok' MacKenzie;
I would take the "Beauty of Kashmir" to be a rhodedendron (sp???) as that plant originates in the Himalayas.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: BB
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM

I have always understood the 'Beauty of Kashmir' to be a rose, a characteristic of that particular variety being that the flowers hang down, i.e. 'drooping its head'.

Barbara

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Glos Bill
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:10 AM

thought the beauty of kashmir was a poppy

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Dead Horse
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 04:10 PM

Ah! The booty of cash. Mere lies! (Snoopy, in bed)

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Dick Goddard
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:24 PM

Yes, I remember writing two extra verses to the anthem - and those nights in the Ringers were quite something! Charlie, Joan, Purdy, we miss you!

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 05:17 PM

I seem to remember a singer from they parts called Mervyn?

Did he not make up the odd verse?

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Hawker
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:01 PM

Just looked on Larkrise to Candleford album, not on there. (The Holmfirth Anthem - also known as Abroad For Pleasure is on the LP sung by Bill Caddick.)
Have found this song on "Cornish Folk Songs" Vol II by Sue White, "Pass Around The Grog" sung by Tommy Morrissey (Veteran) and on "21 Sopngs Of Cornwall" by Ian Marshall.
The story my husband who is a Cornishman has known since he was a teenager (many years ago!) was that a Cornish regiment which became the Duke Of Cornwall's Light Infantry (DCLI)was stationed on the NW Frontier of India. Some members of the regiment were falsely accused of pilfering. They were so indignant that the song was written in protest of their false accusation. It was also suspected that they utilised or modified a tune local to this region which has since been "Chapelised" (as all good Cornish tunes are) May be able to shed more light on this tomorrow! need to speak to another mine of useless information!!!!!!
It is not in Cornish and dialect Folk songs by Ralph Dunstan in 1932 - so it either slipped through the net then, was not popular then or was not written then!
will look into this more..... watch this space.
It is also not in Peter Kennedy's Folk Songs Of Britan and Ireland
It is in Mike O'Connors book "Songs The Cornish Love to sing - This song I'll sing to you" He attributes it to the singing of Tommy Morrisey who used to sing beautiful Kashmir rather than beauty of Kashmir.
Someone once told my old man that 'Beauty Of Kashmir' was a ship that ran aground on the 'Mannacles' just off St Keverne, and went down bows first known locally as 'by the head' don't believe this explaination to be true, but if it were it would certainly be documented somewhere!
Hope this adds to the confusion!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Hawker
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:18 PM

Me again, just been on the DCLI website history pages and found this

"This regiment was first raised in 1702 as Fox's Regiment of Marines, then numbered as the 32nd Foot in 1751. In 1782 it was designated the 32nd, or Cornwall, Regiment then in 1858 it was named the 32nd, or Cornwall, Light Infantry. In 1881 it was renamed as the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry.

During 1884, the D.C.L.I. was stationed at Dublin, where its men would be sent after four months training at the newly-built depot at Bodmin, Cornwall. The Regimental Museum has photographs of all the recruits of the time, but unfortunately, they are not named. In 1885, the First Battalion moved to Malta, and three years later, on 18th February 1888, they moved to India, arriving in Madras on 7th March.

In 1890, rebellion broke out in Burma, led by a tribe known as the Tsawbaws. The First Battalion were moved to Mandalay, and the following year took part in what became known as the Wunthoo Expedition which successfully quelled the revolt.

They then returned to India, doing garrison duty successively at Pur and Roorkee (1893), Chakrata and Meerut (1894) and Lucknow (1896). In 1897 a campaign was fought on the North-West Frontier in which the Battalion took part in the Tirrah expedition, seeing active service in Tirrah and the Bara Valley.

During the next two years they were stationed at Peshawar, Rawal Pindi and Lucknow (1898-1899) and Calcutta and Dum-Dum (1900).

In 1901, prisoners of war from South Africa were shipped over to Ceylon to hastily constructed camps, and the First Battalion was given the task of guarding them. The following year they sailed for South Africa as part of the army of occupation, and were stationed at Stellenbosch (1902), Middleburg and Cape Colony (1903) and Wynberg (1904-05).

In 1906, the Battalion returned to England where they were initially quartered at Crownhill Barracks, Plymouth. From there they moved to Woolwich (1907), Gravesend (1908-1910) and Tidworth (1911). In 1913 they were back in Ireland in Curragh and they mobilised for war on 5th August, 1914. They took part in every major battle on the Western Front."

Which ties in with them being stationed out there so who klnows........ (somebody MUST!)
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Tradsinger
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:19 PM

Just to add to the debate on "The beauty of Kashmire" - in Cadgwith they sing "the beautiful Kashmire". What's all that about, then? The Roud index indicates that this is the only collected version of the song, which he calls "The Robber's Retreat".

Gwilym

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Hawker
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM

Hi Tradsinger I also made that comment in my first bit where it states that Tommy Morrisey used to sing The beautiful Kashmir - as you have spelt it differently are you saying that the pronounciation is different too? There is always the possibility that it could be an abomination of another maybe old Cornish word - or it could be a songwriter of old just having a laugh at out expense as we years on try to make sense of it!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Tradsinger
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM

Hi Lucy,

No. Kashmire was just a typo. The pronunciation is the same. I don't think we're any nearer finding the origin of this song. There seems to be no trace of it before 1953, and it could be a local composition that didn't travel out of the village. The pub used to sell a wonderful cassette of the singing there. I don't know if they still do.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:26 PM

Brought up as a Devon Dumpling (next door to Cornwall for the uninitiated) I understood that the Cadgwith Anthem was written by a group of Fishermen in Cadgwith who decided they needed a Folk song of their own and it was written in 1956.....why did a group of Fisherman...who could have written about the sea...about fishing...about smuggling even....write about highway robbery?
Whatever it is a wonderful song with great harmony.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Jeanie
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 03:31 AM

Les in Chorlton: you are right in remembering "a singer from they parts called Mervyn". You are likely to be thinking of Mervyn Davey (who, I believe, is still in they parts, a Cornish bard and piper, and who published a collection of songs in Cornish). I was part of the resident folk group at Falmouth Folk Club, with Mervyn in it, in the mid to late 1970s, and at that time we were certainly only singing the shorter version. It really is a wonderful, roof-raising song !

Let us be merry :)
- jeanie

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Cats
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 01:34 PM

It wasn't Mervyn Davey, it was Merv Vincent who was in the Ringers that night, making up verses with the rest of us. Mervyn Davey is still singing, playing, etc but Merv Vincent died some years ago.

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 03:41 PM

I'd always understood that the "Beauty of Kashmir" was a race horse??

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 08:23 AM

Mervyn Vincent sounds right. We lived in Bath in the 70's and Mervyn was a guest at the Hat and Feather Folk Club. We also saw him at the Waidbridge Club around 1976.He was good fun and had some great songs

Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:50 PM

For some strange reason this song was the Watchet Football club anthem. I'm afraid I don't know from what date, or if it still is. Watchet is in Somerset on the Bristol channel coast.

Having dropped in at the folk club in Cadgwith, it was nice to find a Jeffreys concertina being played.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Richard Goddard
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 03:17 PM

Mervyn (Vincent) and I were friends for years, but I don't remember him singing the Cadgwith Anthem (except in the chorus). He was generally banned from the Ringers in St Issey (except over May Day) where the extra verses emerged. My vague recollection is that I got the song from Vic Legge of Bodmin, but I may be wrong.

Anybody remember the early days when Martin Winsor and myself worked behind the bar and all those wonderful songs just went on all night? Port and Brandy in the morning to recover!

Sorry this gets nowhere nearer the origins but it's nice to reminisce!

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Richard Goddard
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 03:23 PM

By the way, also as far as I remember, the Beauty of Kashmir is a daffodil grown in Cornwall for many years.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:10 AM

I dropped in on the Cadgwith Cove Inn singaround (Tuesdays) a couple of weeks back and was made very welcome; I wrote about it on this thread. Nobody did the Anthem, though. It was about half-and-half trad and non- (as it often is), with some very familiar songs cropping up (as they often do). The fishermen still sing on a Friday, but I was full of a cold on the night & regretfully gave them a miss.

I had no idea Martin Winsor had had local connections; as it happens I'm listening to the Transports as I write this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:16 AM

I googled 'beauty of Kashmir' and didn't find a flower. However, Google provided 23 pages of references with the exact phrase 'beauty of Kashmir.' There might be more than 23 pages if I had kept clicking.

It is clear that 'beauty of Kashmir' has become a set phrase, rather like 'gay Paree' or 'golden Prague.'

It still might be a flower, but if so, nobody seems to be selling it at present.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Marje
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 12:39 PM

I once talked to someone who claimed that he'd seen, in a china shop, a floral patterned design that was called "Beauty of Kashmir", and that the flower depicted on the china was montbretia (crocosmus). This orange flower grows like a weed in Cornwall.

I can't vouch for this directly, I merely pass it on for your conisderation.

Marje

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Little Robyn
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM

I googled montbretia, just to see what it looked like. There are lots of photos on different sites including this one.
Is this what grows where the robbers retreat?
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Scorpio
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:26 PM

The simplest explanation is usually the most likely, I think. Two things stuck in my head when I first heard the song - that the reference to lawlessness and Kashmir placed the song on the NW frontier, and that the Beauty of Kasmir was botanical. Being the area it was, and the robbers they were, the opium poppy or the mariajuana plant are strong candidates, but the first thing I thought of was the drooping, curling fern design brought back from Kashmir by the soldiers and familiar to many as Paisley pattern.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JeffB
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM

I have always assumed (no evidence, just a hunch) that the Anthem was originally composed for a pageant. These were very popular as village or town celebrations in the 1920s and 30s, with everyone dressing up in costume and re-enacting bits of local history or legend. I imagine that there would be appropriate music, dance or song wherever there was enough talent to provide it.

A march-past of a squad of DCLI players would probably not be out of place in Cadgwith, especially if local men had served on the NW frontier (and told their stories endlessly at the pub for years after), and a short song with a highly singable chorus would be just the thing as they took the salute.

I have came across a couple of other pieces that I feel could have their origins in 20th cent pageants or civic ceremonies (might make an interesting thread). One is "William Rufus", another "Sir Sidney Smith's March".

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Ged
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 06:46 AM

"Sir Sidney Smith's March" was known (and written down) in C19th, and I'd guess it was at least contemporaneous with Sir Sidney, i.e. early C19th or even very late C18th, when Sir Sidney was the nation's most popular hero.

"The Robbers' Retreat" is included in the Naval Song Book, edited by Inglis Gundry circa 1945. It is included (as are a number of songs in the book) "by permission of Rev G. Goodenough M.A."
Rev G. Goodenough was a Chaplain to the Fleet. I suspect, (perhaps someone could confirm,) that Rev Goodenough compiled "The Naval Song Book" published circa 1906, and that Inglis Gundry incorporated songs from the earlier book (including, maybe, Robbers' Retreat) into the 1945 book.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 08:04 AM

The Cadgwith Anthem... was written in the 1950s by a group of fishermen in Cadgwith who decided they needed their own song for the village.......

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JeffB
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 10:33 AM

Thanks very much Ged. I wonder if the Rev actually composed the song, which you seem to say is the same as BoK. Do you happen to know how many verses were in the Naval Song Book and what they were?

Sir Sid's March was I suppose composed before his death in 1840.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: JeffB
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

PS I notice from Hawker's two posts on 26 Oct 05 that 1st Bn DCLI was transported back to England in 1906, about the same time that the Naval Song Book was printed. Would it be too fanciful to imagine a connection; could they have sang the song on the way home?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Ged
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:03 PM

The words in my copy of The Naval Song book are:

We come from yonder mountains, our pistols are loaded,
For to rob and to plunder it is our intent,
As we roam through the valleys where the lilies and the roses
And the beautiful cashmere lies drooping its head.
Then away, then away, then away, away,
To the caves in yonder mountain
To the robbers' retreat.

Hark, hark! In the distance there's footsteps approaching:
Stand, stand and deliver! Shall be our watchword – As we...

Your gold and your jewels, - Your life if resisted!
We shall laugh at your agony, and scorn at your threats – As we...

Come fill up your glasses, and let's be a-drinking,
For the moonbeams are shining all over our heads – As we...

* * *

Neither words nor music are ascribed to any person but, as I stated above, the "kind permission of the Rev. G. Goodenough M.A." was acknowledged.

I was slightly misleading in my earier post, as this acknowledgement was only given to 8 of the songs, all grouped together in the book. For one of the songs, "Plymouth Sound," Rev G. G. was given as the composer - Baring-Gould having written the words. (Yes - the words are the same as those in "Songs and Ballads of the west" but the tune is not.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Ged
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM

Well - I've been looking more closely at my copy of Naval Song Book. It is undated and I assumed it was the 1945 version.

Closer inspection, however, makes me think it is the earlier version.   
The previous owner was an officer in WW2 which is why I assumed the 1945 version. A little research, however, showed me that he was born in 1896 and worked his way up through the ranks.
He was in Malta (Warrant Engineer, HMS Warsprite) in 1928, and the book contains a concert programme that could relate to that period (it mentions the Bastion Club, which suggests Valetta)
Also, the contents of the book correlate well with the late-Victorian/Edwardian song books, (I'll post the index in the Victorian song indexes thread,) and the latest copyright acknowledged is 1902.
So - - I think I have a published copy of the Robbers' Retreat from the early part of the century.

I could be wrong, of course, but at least there's something that can be verified.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:53 AM

This looks a more coherent set of words and more verses!

I have in the back of my mind that the Watchet Footbal club were known as the "Robbers". If this is true it could explain their use of the song as an anthem.

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 08:52 AM

One point I have not seen raised: at what point in time was this song first labelled the Cadgwith Anthem, and thereby annexed as an "old Cornish folksong"? Was this Peter Kennedy in 53, or someone else at some other time?

Subject: RE: Origins: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ged Fox
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:44 PM

was "GUEST, Ged" but now registered.

I've now acquired 2 more copies of The Naval Songbook.

1) Contents identical to the one I already had. Inscription dates the book to 1913. So the Robbers' Retreat was definitely in the Naval Songbook before WW1.

2) The 1945 version, dated and stated to be compiled and edited by Inglis Gundry. Only 7 out of 66 songs made it from the old to the new book, and the Robbers' Retreat was not one of them.
The Gundry collection is much more folky (collected by Sharp, Karpeles etc) and more shanties (collected by Terry etc) than the earlier book. It is interesting that Gundry, who included Robbers' Retreat in Canow Kernow (1966) did not appear to recognize it as a Cornish folk song when he had it to hand in 1945.