Origins: Spanish Ladies

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 04:03 PM

So far I've checked the broadsides and the weirdest thing is the further you go back in time the more corrupt the versions become!! All I can suggest so far is that the later broadsides, even though corrupt to some degree, have gone back to more accurate versions from oral tradition. All earlier printed versions and the 1769 show strong evidence of oral tradition. My guess is that there was a readily available to Naval personnel original version on the go that spawned all of these oral versions that then found their way onto broadsides. We really must be talking about c1750 at the latest, so to our Naval experts, what would the British Navy be doing in Spain in the early 18th century, and presumably under friendly circumstances?

BTW in my previous post, where I put 'much earlier', that was a senior moment on my part, of course Phil Sumaurez (not James) could easily have written it, the Nottingham and Mars incident was 1746.

BTW2, the sloop Nellie in 1769 was on a merchant voyage from Dartmouth to London and the journal was Captain Peter Pease's, so passing though the Channel.

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 08:29 AM

A few more observations having compared all of the earlier versions.

The chorus is just given as the second stanza in most early versions, but Huntington 1769 gives it as the chorus. Could this just be Huntington bowing to modern versions? Chappell and the broadsides and Dixon just have it as the second verse. Anyone got access to the original 1769 manuscript?

The theme of the song is not that exciting in terms of folksong. One can understand it being sung by RN officers aboard along with Dibdin songs, but it tells of no Naval engagement, is a bit jingoistic, but generally just describes a pretty uneventful passage.

The actual text is quite stable apart from the obvious mondegreens.

There is an important difference in the 1769 version. It lacks the second stanza and expands the last stanza into 2 stanzas. One could easily imagine that being the case with the original and because this is so repetitive it was shunted into one stanza by later singers/printers. I'll post this version shortly.

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:07 AM

Adieu to you, you ladies of Lisbon
Adieu to you, you ladies of Spain
For we've received orders to sail to old England
We hope on a short time to be with you again.

Chorus:
We'll rant and we'll roar, boys, like brave English heroes
We'll rant and we'll roar upon the salt seas
Until we strike soundings in the channel of Old England
From Nohant to Scully is thirty-five leagues.

The first land we made it was called the deadman
The ramhead of Plymouth doth start London white
Sailed east beachy ship past folly and Underneys
Until we roused the Forlan light.

The signal being made our grand fleet to anchor
All in the down that night for to sleep
It was stand by your stoppers let go your shank painters
Haul up your clew garnets stick out your fore sheets.

Let every man loft of his full bumper
Let every man taste of his full bowl
It will furnish the blood it will drive away all sorrow
So here is a health to all seamen so bold.

It will drive away all of your sorrows
it will drive away all melancholy
So here's a good health to all brave hearted and bold
Here's a health to each jovial and true hearted soul.

Sloop Nellie, 1769, Captain Peter Pease, on passage from Dartmouth to London.

Another interesting point is that he uses correct terminology for the ship's furniture, but gets just about all of the geographical names wrong, which is what you might expect from a sailor not familiar with the geography.

In answer to a query in Mariner's Mirror November 1919 there ensued a series of replies going up to October 2021 which at one point provoked a short study of comparing different versions. An interesting response came in February 1920 from one L. G. C. Laughton, whose father, Sir John Laughton, told him 'that it was written and sung in the Grand Fleet under Russell when it first wintered on the coast of Spain (at Cadiz) in 1694/5. from internal evidence it seems fairly certain that it must have belonged to that war, when you had the use of Spanish ports, and when the Grand Fleet had not been split up, as happened soon afterwards, by the need of sending fleets and squadrons all over the world. And the song being so old, it is quite certain that 'spankers' ought never to be introduced into the last verse but one to rhyme with 'anchors' for the spanker was not introduced till the very end of the 18th century.'

This would fit in nicely with the garbled 1769 version, the song being about 70 years old then.

There are some responses on the history of the tune which I will collate later, with some suggestion of an Irish influence.

NB: st1 'on', and chorus 'Nohant' and 'Scully' are quite likely misinterpretations of the ms.

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM

Well we know it was popular amongst officers in the RN, but I'm not so sure how popular it was amongst merchant seamen. 'Good song'. Well, it has a great tune, and it has been adapted to other circumstances. I'll know more when I've looked at all of the sources.

The tune has similarities with the old 'Derry Down' (King John and the Abbot of Canterbury) probably of the same vintage. This tune is arguably the most used tune ever in the western world, but you hardly ever hear it nowadays. Fashions come and go I suppose.

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:30 AM

Thanks, Gibb
The first line of that last verse is definitely in our song. Being such a popular song in the RN and probably a century old by then, it was probably revised several times, that is if the writer wasn't using his own creative abilities there. However, the first verse is almost verbatim the regular versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 02:52 PM

Thanks, Jon
Just about everything we've written here was in Stuart Frank's book 'Jolly Sailors Bold'. Never Mind. I've got all of the versions together now. A hypothetical ur version shouldn't be too difficult as versions are mostly very stable.

The minor tune. Anyone else noted similarities with the tune for Corpus Christi Carol (Bells of Paradise) and the early tune for Hunting the Wren (Milder to Malder)?

The 'I've been a seacook' line is in the whaleman's rewrite.

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 02:44 PM

I love the modal tune but I have sung it to both.

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:22 AM

Sorry if you already have this one...

“The Man-of-War’s Man.” [chapter] Blackwood’s Edinburgh Magazine 11.60 (Jan. 1822).


Song verses smatter the narrative. On page 20, there is

//
Farewell, and adieu to your grand Spanish ladies,
Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain,
For we've received orders to sail for Old England,
But we hope in short time for to see you again.
//

After a few other fragments, there's this, which may belong to the same song

//
Then we'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy,
Our spirits to cherish, our hopes, and our lives,
And we'll pay all our debts with a flying foretop-sail,
And so bid adieu to our sweethearts and wives.
//

Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 04:38 PM

As a point of interest only, Herman Melville's poem "Tom Deadlight" (1888) is founded on this song.