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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Brian Peters Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM Thanks, Steve, that shines a bit of light on it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 09:09 AM Ah but, This is the statement of the girl left in England who very likely had no concept of what New Holland was really like. Here are the appropriate stanzas from an early version. (c1776) New Holland is a barren place, In it there grows no GRAIN, Nor yet no habitation, Within for to remain. The sugar canes are plenty, the wine drops from the tree, And the lowlands of Holland Hath twin'd my love and me. New Holland is a bonny place, But it is scant of men, Yet to conquer New-England, Is what they do intend: For there is none can win them, So well they know the sea, And the lowlands of Holland, Hath etc. I hardly think she can be talking about Holland and New Holland in the same breath so we probably assume she is referring to merchant ships going to Australia and America. The older song seems to have nothing to do with being pressed or whaling. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Brian Peters Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:01 AM Thanks Lighter. I used to sing that version of 'Lowlands of Holland', and always wondered where the 'cold place where grows no green' came from. Not very accurate whether the song refers to the Netherlands, the Dutch East Indies or Australia! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM No, Brian. There isn't. Nor does there seem to be a traditional source for MacColl's version (on the Lloyd-MacColl album "There She Blows!") of "The Lowlands of Holland" that's about the "cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery." Pity. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Brian Peters Date: 19 Feb 17 - 11:31 AM Is there any source apart from Bert Lloyd for the 'Talcahuano Girls' version of this song? The lyrics (posted above) look in places suspiciously similar to the Newfoundland version 'The Ryans and the Pittmans' Readers of the 'Bertsongs' thread will know where I'm going with this! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: ChanteyLass Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:36 PM My two cents! In Chapter 40, Midnight, Forecastle, of Moby Dick, Herman Melville wrote "Farewell and adieu to you, Spanish ladies! Farewell and adieu to you, ladies of Spain! Our captain's commanded! - " At that point the singing is interrupted by the First Nantucket Sailor's request that they join him in singing something cheerier. He then leads a version of The Bold Harpooneer. At Mystic Seaport, members of the chantey staff often sing Talcahuano Girls. Why say Farewell and Adieu to Spanish ladies? Maybe the songwriter knew English and French but not Spanish. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: davidkiddnet Date: 30 Jan 17 - 07:47 PM A ballad by the name "Spanish Ladies" was registered in the English Stationer's Company on December 14, 1624, however the song with its present lyrics was more likely of the Napoleonic era, probably created during the First Coalition (1793–96) when the British navy carried supplies to Spain to aid its resistance to revolutionary France. Also perhaps in the later Peninsular War when British soldiers were transported to Spain to assist fighting against French occupation but after victory forbidden to bring home with them any Spanish wives, lovers or children. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Mr Happy Date: 04 Nov 05 - 02:58 PM I didn't know where the places mentioned in Talcahuano Girls were. For anyone else who also didn't know, they're in Chile. See here http://portfocus.com/chile/talcahuano/ & Huasco here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atacama_Region |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Tattie Bogle Date: 09 Mar 03 - 07:54 AM Thanks for the historical info re the John Tams version: I agree, a must-listen! |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM No one picked me up on John Tam's Spanish Lady. Of course he did not use the chorus, but the first verse which he uses as his last. And very pleasing it is. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Mad Maudlin Date: 07 Mar 03 - 03:49 AM Hi Susanne, Thanks for the hint, I heard the name Dungeness before, though :) My postcode is 54595, and yours? (Please feel free to PM me, and then I can give you my e-mail address) |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: greg stephens Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:08 AM I watched them moving the Belle Tout lighthouse back from the cliff edge on Beachy head. Fascinating bit of engineering. It went very...........very........sloooooow....ly |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Teribus Date: 06 Mar 03 - 05:22 AM The chorus I learned in the Navy went something like: "We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors We'll rant and we'll roam across the salt main For Hawkes to command in the Channel of old England So farewell Spanish Ladies 'til we see you again." I think at the time Minorca was occupied by the British The reference to "Ushant to Scilly" in the better known and more commonly sung chorus has nothing to do with the direction the ship was sailing in. In most conflicts with France the main task of the Channel Fleet was to blockade the French ports - a prolonged and extremely boring task. At times the weather caused the blockading squadrons off station. The distance between Ushant and Scilly was burned into the minds of Royal Navy sailors as the ships ran for shelter in Torbay only to beat back to regain their blockade stations. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford,working Date: 06 Mar 03 - 02:54 AM The John Tams song I know Is a diferrent song and story, but borrowing the tune and chorus. He sings of a soldier leaving his love behind after the Peninsular War. Farewell and adieu, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Susanne (skw) Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:16 PM Mad Maudlin, as you are German like me, may I add that Dungeness has nothing to do with 'dung' but the g is pronounced as in 'danger'? BTW, what's your post code? |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Tattie Bogle Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM For a "different" version listen to John Tams: different tune and great arrangement. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Penny S. Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:34 PM The Beachy Head lighthouse is below the cliff at sea level (well, its base is). The first lighthouse was to the west of the main cliff, called Belle Tout, on the top of a lower cliff, but it had to be abandoned, and the remaining structure was, last year, hydraulically shifted away from the cliff edge to prevent its loss into the sea. You may have to wait a bit for an answer from Pete M, as he hasn't posted for some time, but I think he has been sailing larger than yachty things off New Zealand. He used to sail a dinghy in Dover Harbour. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 05 Mar 03 - 12:29 AM Mudcat's very own Riggy Rackin has a fine version of this song (and many more) on his new CD Nautical, Pastoral & Pub Song. It's well worth getting. You can contact him at riggy@riggy.com, or I think you can get it from Camsco. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: CRANKY YANKEE Date: 04 Mar 03 - 07:42 PM The "Shank painter" secures the anchor's shank outside of the foremast rigging (shrouds and backstays) letting the shank painter go lets the anchor swing from the cathead I sing the "New Bedford "version. I used to use this for a theme song. Hopefully the anchor chain or cable is attached to the anchor when one does these things. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: SINSULL Date: 03 Mar 03 - 07:24 PM Most basic problem: why would anyone say farewell or adieu to a Spanish lady? Wouldn't "Hasta la vista, baby"(spelling?) be more appropriate? Or "Buenos noches"? |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Raedwulf Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM ?? Not sure what you're getting at here? The chorus is "From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues". It doesn't say which way you're going. It would not be unreasonable, surely, to heave to in order to get an accurate sounding. After which you start beating up the Channel. The song is a song, with a loosely accurate progression of landmarks that a mariner of the time would recognise. That's it. Where's the problem? |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Micca Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:14 PM As given above all of these are headlands or prominent features on the english channel coast, the bit of this song that has ALWAYS puzzled me is this, " We hove our ship to with the wind from South west boys" but the Ushant to Scilly and the list above suggests that they are Beating up the Channel against a Nor'Easterly as with a Fair South Westerly you would run before the wind and miss out some of the headlands! After rounding Ushant you certainly Would NOT head for the Scillies far to the West, but with the wind free run for Start Point in Devon or either Portland Bill or the Isle of Wight. The sequence of headlands as written only makes sense if you are beating in broad tacks against a NE wind and making a fresh landfall at the end of each tack!! |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Mad Maudlin Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM Hmm, sounds like a bad place for a lighthouse indeed! I know a similar place in northern Spain, soft red rock, and at night you'd hear those big chunks falling off and dropping into the sea as you drift off to sleep. (The fun part is, though, that this soft red rock is rich in small but pretty amethysts...) Thanks for the info! |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Schantieman Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:52 PM Well, hush my mouth. There is a light there, either down on the foreshore below the cliff or right on the edge. Difficult to tell from the 1:10000 OS map via Multimap.com and I haven't got a proper chart handy. I don't remember whether I saw it when we sailed that way! Let's hope that bit doesn't collapse! |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Schantieman Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM Start Point is in east Cornwall (and has a light). Beachy Head in Sussex is a big white(ish) cliff but since big chunks fall off it from time to time (last year, for instance) there's not much point building a lighthouse there! (pause to check a chart....) S |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Mad Maudlin Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM Thanks for the correction! I guess this kind of corruption of place names often happens when a song is heard rather than read on broadsheet etc. Those names would mean nothing to someone who doesn't know them, so he might mishear or remember them wrongly...Are the others (I mean the probably lesser known ones, like Start and Beachie) correct, though? Interesting story, that one about the "Spanish Ladies" - no matter if it is true or not... |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 03 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM Fairlight and Dodman are correct - but "Deadman" appears in many versions. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Schantieman Date: 03 Mar 03 - 03:25 PM Apparently (someone told me this, so I can't vouch for its authenticity) the Spanish ladies were the wives that British sailors had married while stationed in Spain for several years. They were forced to leave them (and the resultant children) behind when they sailed, without any means of support. Apparently the wailing from the harbour could be heard miles out at sea. I think 'Fairley' is actually 'Fairlight' is it not? And 'Deadman' is surely Dodman Point in Cornwall. You obviously have extensive experience of sailing in the Channel, Pete - are you a yachtie or do you do it for a living? Steve |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Mad Maudlin Date: 03 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM Thanks, GUEST and Martin! I *knew* there was a catch somewhere :) |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM You're right on Beachy, Fairley and Dungeness .... but Scilly is Silly! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM Scilly = Silly |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies - pron. of place names? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:21 PM Hi all, I've just learned this great song with the help of a MIDI file and the lyrics from the Digitrad, but I'm not sure about the pronunciation of some of the place names. Don't want to show that I'm only an ignorant German right away :), so could you please help me with them? Deadman, Ramshead, Plymouth, Start, Portland and Wight are no problem, as is Ushant, but what about Beachie, Fairlee, Dungness and Scilly? My guess is that Beachie and Fairlee are pronounced as one would expect (like "beachy" and "fairly"), but what about Dungness? Does the first syllable rhyme with "plunge"? And is "Scilly" pronounced as "skilly"? (Please feel free at my stupid questions, but to my experience the pronunciation of place names doesn't always follow the rules. It's the same in Germany, too!) |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: MARINER Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:59 AM The song also appears in the collection "Songs of the Wexford Coast". It was collected from an old sailor in 1943 and is similar to the English versions mentioned above except for the last verse, which goes. We ran up a signal for the grand fleet to anchor The signal was made for the grand fleet to moor Stand by your ring stopper, clear off your shank painter If we've trouble at sea, we'll be happy ashore. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Snuffy Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:40 AM Bernard and Suzanne, many thanks for the lyrics. Jan L - I never got to see Hughie. We were in the Mariners Sunday night when he was at the Wagon. And we were in the Wagon Monday lunchtime when he was in the Mariners. But I did buy one of Hughies CDs and have been playing it on the way to and from work this week. Wassail! V
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:56 PM "Spanish Ladies" (We'll rant and we'll roar) versions are still pouring into rec.music.folk. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:58 PM We just finished this on rec.music.folk, where I pointed out that it was on the Bodley Ballads website, and (6 verses) with music in Wm. Chappell's PMOT. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Scuttlebutt Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:00 PM To respond to various points raisd here Snuffy - if you were in the Wagon and Horses on sunday evening you would have heard Hughie Jones singin spanish ladies (to the audience and down the phone line to New Zealand) as per Dans version above. If anyone is interested go to www.chanteycabin.co.uk stan Hugills book is available - i also have theUffa Fox version available - send me a private email if you are interested Some years ago The Spinners gor the admiralty to check the charted distane fron Ushant to Scilly and the official version is 34 leagues - not 35 as is more usual May you always run before the wind Jan L |
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Subject: Lyr Add: TALCAHUANO GIRLS From: Susanne (skw) Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:33 PM Snuffy, you mean Talcahuano Girls. It seems to be neither in the DT nor in the Forum, so here you are. The tune is 'Spanish Ladies', of course. TALCAHUANO GIRLS (Trad) Chorus: We'll rant and we'll roar like true-born young whalermen We'll rant and we'll roar on deck and below Until we see bottom inside the two sinkers And straight up the channel to Huasco we'll go I was in Talcahuano last year in a whaler I bought some gold brooches for the girls in the Bay I bought me a pipe and they called it a meerscum And it melted like butter on a hot shiny day I went to a dance one night in old Tumbez There was plenty of girls there as fine as you'd wish There was one pretty maiden a-chewing tobacco Just like a young kitten a-chewing fresh fish Here's a health to the girls of old Talcahuano A health to the maidens of far-off Maui And let you be merry, don't be melancholy I can't marry youse all, or in chokey I'd be Oh I've been a sea-cook, and I've been a clipperman I can sing, I can dance, I can walk the jib-boom I can handle a harpoon and cut a fine figure Whenever I get in a boat's standing room [1967:] Chase of sperm and right whales, Pacific, early 19th century. By no means all the oldtime whaling was done in northern waters. In the 1820s, for example, more than a hundred British ships, mostly out of Hull or London, were fishing in the spermwhale grounds round the Horn off the coast of Chile and Peru and taking the long, long run across the Pacific by way of Galapagos Island and the Marquesas, to Timor. The trip would last three years. The song called Spanish Ladies was on the go among seamen in Samuel Pepys' day, but by the 1840s, Captain Marryat (author of 'Midshipman Easy') reported it as 'now almost forgotten'. Nevertheless it survived well in countless parodies (one of them associated with Australian drovers, as it happens). The present version belongs to the rowdy South- Seamen [...]. Talcahuano lies south of Valparaiso in Chile; Huasco is about midway between 'Vallypo' and Antofagasta; Tumbez is on the Gulf of Guayaquil, near the Equator: odorous ports, all three. (Notes A. L. Lloyd, 'Leviathan!') |
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Subject: Lyr Add: TALCAHUANO GIRLS From: Bernard Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:32 PM Is this the one you mean?
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Chicken Charlie Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM Omigod--That song was used in episode V ("Mutiny") of the Hornblower saga. The cuckoo captain sang it after they put him in a straight jacket. That was just on A&E last two weekends; I'm sure it will return seven or eight more times before the year is out. CC |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Snuffy Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:06 PM Does anyone have the lyrics of the Pacific whalermen version? It seemed to be the only version sung at the Lancaster Maritime Festival last weekend? |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Jon W. Date: 05 Nov 98 - 05:39 PM A fine song, adapted all over - I've got recordings of versions from New Bedford, Conneticut; the Pacific Ocean whalers with placenames from Mexico and Hawaii; and the Australian version which has to do with cattle drovers (not rovers) in Queensland - and each version has it's own charm. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Pete M Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:16 PM Hi Bert, well actually there are two lighthouses at Dungeness, one decommissioned and open to the public, the other operational. The nuclear power station also has two reactors (A) and (B) From memory the large blob that's visible from sea is Dungeness B. I believe there was to have been a C reactor - possibly a fast breeder, but this was never implemented. Output of the stations is in the GigaWatt range, so they power it bit more than the lighthouse. It does seem a bit incongrous that a lighthouse two or three hundred yards from a power station has its own diesel generator for when the power fails! Anyone from that area with more up to date info? My point was really that when the song was originally in common shipboard use, there was no naviational beacon on Dungeness and everyone would want to avoid it like the plague, especially as coming up Channel it would be a lee shore nine times out of ten; and that you would not, nor want to, "sight" it. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Bert Date: 05 Nov 98 - 02:49 PM Pete, There's a lighthouse at Dungeness. Last I heard it was powered by it's own small nuclear reactor. But that's beside the point, they probably use it in the song because it's such a nice sounding name, It's got more resonance to it than Dover. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: dick greenhaus Date: 05 Nov 98 - 12:10 PM Please. Please. Please. Before you post lyrics, check to see if we already have them. The Newfoundland version (Ryans and Pittmans) IS already in the databas |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Catfeet Date: 05 Nov 98 - 12:01 AM There are also about 10 verses from Nelson's era. They are detailed in a book I believe is called Men'O War. It is a compendium to a fictional series about Nelson's era by Patrick O'Brian. Catfeet |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Jack Hickman Date: 05 Nov 98 - 12:00 AM It's also a Newfoundland favourite. The chorus goes: We'll Rant and we'll Roar like True Newfoundlanders We'll Rant and Roar on deck and below Until we see bottom between two sunkers Then straight up the channel to Toslow we'll go I'm sure there's somewhere out there who can post the NFLD version of the lyrics. Jack Hickman |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Barry Finn Date: 04 Nov 98 - 09:31 PM Originally sung in the Royal Navy as a homeward bounder from the Mediterranean, then adopted by merchantmen as a capstan shanty, then by whalers out of New England, Australians, Newfoundlanders, etc. It appears in print as far back as 1769 from the logbook of the Nellie. From the"Oxford Book Of Folksongs" Roy Palmer. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Pete M Date: 04 Nov 98 - 09:16 PM Just re-read the version(s) in the DT, and as posted by Dan above. They both mention Dungeness rather than Dover. To my mind this doesn't make sense, Dungeness and Romney Marsh are about 10 feet above sea level and would not be visible until you were about to run ashore. (Its different now of course with the lighthouse and the Nuclear power station - can't miss it!) You need to stand well out into the Channel after sighting Fairlight to avoid Dungeness, and the cliffs of Dover are the next obvious mark that you are clear of the hazard and can bear away for South Foreland to take you into the Downs. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies From: Alice Date: 04 Nov 98 - 07:41 PM I've liked this song ever since I discovered it in the old songbook I mentioned before. In spite of having a high voice, which is out of character for a sea song like this, I still like to sing it and think it is a fun one for sing-along with a group.
Pete, I'm glad you could clarify the details. alice |
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