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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 14 Feb 24 - 04:38 PM As a point of interest only, Herman Melville's poem "Tom Deadlight" (1888) is founded on this song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Gibb Sahib Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:22 AM Sorry if you already have this one... “The Man-of-War’s Man.” [chapter] Blackwood’s Edinburgh Magazine 11.60 (Jan. 1822). Song verses smatter the narrative. On page 20, there is // Farewell, and adieu to your grand Spanish ladies, Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain, For we've received orders to sail for Old England, But we hope in short time for to see you again. // After a few other fragments, there's this, which may belong to the same song // Then we'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy, Our spirits to cherish, our hopes, and our lives, And we'll pay all our debts with a flying foretop-sail, And so bid adieu to our sweethearts and wives. // |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Oct 23 - 02:44 PM I love the modal tune but I have sung it to both. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 23 - 02:52 PM Thanks, Jon Just about everything we've written here was in Stuart Frank's book 'Jolly Sailors Bold'. Never Mind. I've got all of the versions together now. A hypothetical ur version shouldn't be too difficult as versions are mostly very stable. The minor tune. Anyone else noted similarities with the tune for Corpus Christi Carol (Bells of Paradise) and the early tune for Hunting the Wren (Milder to Malder)? The 'I've been a seacook' line is in the whaleman's rewrite. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:30 AM Thanks, Gibb The first line of that last verse is definitely in our song. Being such a popular song in the RN and probably a century old by then, it was probably revised several times, that is if the writer wasn't using his own creative abilities there. However, the first verse is almost verbatim the regular versions. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM Well we know it was popular amongst officers in the RN, but I'm not so sure how popular it was amongst merchant seamen. 'Good song'. Well, it has a great tune, and it has been adapted to other circumstances. I'll know more when I've looked at all of the sources. The tune has similarities with the old 'Derry Down' (King John and the Abbot of Canterbury) probably of the same vintage. This tune is arguably the most used tune ever in the western world, but you hardly ever hear it nowadays. Fashions come and go I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:07 AM Adieu to you, you ladies of Lisbon Adieu to you, you ladies of Spain For we've received orders to sail to old England We hope on a short time to be with you again. Chorus: We'll rant and we'll roar, boys, like brave English heroes We'll rant and we'll roar upon the salt seas Until we strike soundings in the channel of Old England From Nohant to Scully is thirty-five leagues. The first land we made it was called the deadman The ramhead of Plymouth doth start London white Sailed east beachy ship past folly and Underneys Until we roused the Forlan light. The signal being made our grand fleet to anchor All in the down that night for to sleep It was stand by your stoppers let go your shank painters Haul up your clew garnets stick out your fore sheets. Let every man loft of his full bumper Let every man taste of his full bowl It will furnish the blood it will drive away all sorrow So here is a health to all seamen so bold. It will drive away all of your sorrows it will drive away all melancholy So here's a good health to all brave hearted and bold Here's a health to each jovial and true hearted soul. Sloop Nellie, 1769, Captain Peter Pease, on passage from Dartmouth to London. Another interesting point is that he uses correct terminology for the ship's furniture, but gets just about all of the geographical names wrong, which is what you might expect from a sailor not familiar with the geography. In answer to a query in Mariner's Mirror November 1919 there ensued a series of replies going up to October 2021 which at one point provoked a short study of comparing different versions. An interesting response came in February 1920 from one L. G. C. Laughton, whose father, Sir John Laughton, told him 'that it was written and sung in the Grand Fleet under Russell when it first wintered on the coast of Spain (at Cadiz) in 1694/5. from internal evidence it seems fairly certain that it must have belonged to that war, when you had the use of Spanish ports, and when the Grand Fleet had not been split up, as happened soon afterwards, by the need of sending fleets and squadrons all over the world. And the song being so old, it is quite certain that 'spankers' ought never to be introduced into the last verse but one to rhyme with 'anchors' for the spanker was not introduced till the very end of the 18th century.' This would fit in nicely with the garbled 1769 version, the song being about 70 years old then. There are some responses on the history of the tune which I will collate later, with some suggestion of an Irish influence. NB: st1 'on', and chorus 'Nohant' and 'Scully' are quite likely misinterpretations of the ms. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 23 - 08:29 AM A few more observations having compared all of the earlier versions. The chorus is just given as the second stanza in most early versions, but Huntington 1769 gives it as the chorus. Could this just be Huntington bowing to modern versions? Chappell and the broadsides and Dixon just have it as the second verse. Anyone got access to the original 1769 manuscript? The theme of the song is not that exciting in terms of folksong. One can understand it being sung by RN officers aboard along with Dibdin songs, but it tells of no Naval engagement, is a bit jingoistic, but generally just describes a pretty uneventful passage. The actual text is quite stable apart from the obvious mondegreens. There is an important difference in the 1769 version. It lacks the second stanza and expands the last stanza into 2 stanzas. One could easily imagine that being the case with the original and because this is so repetitive it was shunted into one stanza by later singers/printers. I'll post this version shortly. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 23 - 04:03 PM So far I've checked the broadsides and the weirdest thing is the further you go back in time the more corrupt the versions become!! All I can suggest so far is that the later broadsides, even though corrupt to some degree, have gone back to more accurate versions from oral tradition. All earlier printed versions and the 1769 show strong evidence of oral tradition. My guess is that there was a readily available to Naval personnel original version on the go that spawned all of these oral versions that then found their way onto broadsides. We really must be talking about c1750 at the latest, so to our Naval experts, what would the British Navy be doing in Spain in the early 18th century, and presumably under friendly circumstances? BTW in my previous post, where I put 'much earlier', that was a senior moment on my part, of course Phil Sumaurez (not James) could easily have written it, the Nottingham and Mars incident was 1746. BTW2, the sloop Nellie in 1769 was on a merchant voyage from Dartmouth to London and the journal was Captain Peter Pease's, so passing though the Channel. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 23 - 10:44 AM I see from my indexes I haven't made a detailed study of different versions, so unless someone else has already done this, I'll make a start this week. Jon, I agree the Newcastle Journal must surely be a rewrite. I am hazarding a guess that the original would have been written by a Naval officer such as Capt. James Sumaurez who wrote the Nottingham and Mars ballad, but much earlier of course. I will start with the Pitts broadside and the Gam version. Flagging up anything else earlier than 1800 would be useful. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 15 Oct 23 - 07:51 AM Steve, thanks for reminding me about "Jolly Sailors Bold"! I actually forgot that I have it. Somewhere. I've also canvassed ECCO for key phrases like "Spanish ladies," "rant an we'll roar/ rove," and "Ushant to Scilly" without finding another 18th century text. Nothing in the 17th either (EEBO) but Deloney's 1695 ballad "The Spanish Ladies Love," which bears no relationship beyond the title and a "Captain." GUEST, it's certainly one my favorites. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM Sung by an actual Spanish lady. Very nice! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HApnGBRjVmU |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:53 AM A presumably ersatz Yankee version can be heard in the background of the "Moby Dick" episode of the cable series "Great Books" (1996): Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain. Our ship’s received orders, we sail for New England— But we hope in a short time to see you again. We’ll rant and we’ll roar, like true Yankee sailormen. We’ll rant and we’ll roar on deck and below. Until we sight Gay Head and old Martha’s Vineyard, Then straight up the channel to New Bedford we’ll go. I’ve been a sea cook and I’ve been a clipper man... [more inaudible] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:45 AM Bell & Dixon's text appeared earlier and similarly without provenance in the Percy Society's "Early English Poetry. Ballads" Vol. XVII (1846), which was edited by Dixon. This printing includes the note about the "plaintive tune" and "Poor Jack" (1840). Captain Marryat (1792-1848) gives the whole song (with one or two slightly variant lines). "Poor Jack" is set around 1800. According to the narrator, "[T]his song was very popular at that time among the seamen, and is now almost forgotten." Therefore "I shall, by inserting it here, for a short time rescue it from oblivion." Chappell's "Collection of English National Airs" (1838) includes the minor/modal tune, the first stanza (with "fine Spanish ladies"), and the note: "A popular old Sea Song, contributed by Lord Vernon. It is to be regretted that his Lordship could only recollect a portion of the words." Presumably the fifth Baron Vernon (1803-1866) is meant; otherwise Chappell should have written "the late Lord Vernon" (1779-1835). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM Great work, Steve. But even if the song refers to the 17th century, it may not have been written or at least in circulation till much later. (That would explain "anchor/ spanker.") In any case it's surprising that such a good song should have existed from at least 1769 and have left so little trace for so long. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 12 Oct 23 - 12:27 PM The rhyming of "Plymouth" with "south" smacks of conscious archaism, but I'm no expert on this. Oddly, the Newcastle Journal credits Bell & Dixon, which had recently been published. In Lloyd's note on "Talcahuana Girls," "countless" means one or two, and "belongs to" means "should have been sung by but wasn't." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 11 Oct 23 - 08:41 PM A uniquely technical and elaborate text, from the Newcastle Journal (July 11, 1857): Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies! Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain! For we've received orders for to sail from Gibraltar, But we hope in due time for to see you again. We cleared the Straits with both sheets a-flowing The wind keeping aft, for St. Vincent's we lay; We bowled along by the bluff Rock of Lisbon, And Finisterre showed when we'd got to Biscay. We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors, We'll rant and we'll roar all on the salt seas, Until we strike soundings in the Channel of Old England; From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues. We hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys; We hove our ship to, deep soundings to clear; We struck ninety fathom, then filled our main topsail, And smack through the chops of the Channel did steer. The first land we made it was called the Dodmon, From Ram-head it bears about west and by south; The botttom is reg'lar on hake's teeth and gravel And the lead is the guide when you're bound to Plymouth. So the Start Point we passed, and the steep Bill of Portland Swanage Bay, and back of the Island of Wight; We sailed by Beechey, by Fairlee, and Dungeness, And then we bore up to the South Foreland light. Then the signal 'twas made for the grand fleet to anchor, All in the Downs, that night for to meet; So stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters, Haul up your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets. We let go our best bower in eight fathoms water, In eight fathoms water our anchor we dropped, Straightway from the tier they paid out with a good will, We veered half a cable, then bitted and stopped. Now let every man enjoy his full bumper, To wives and to sweethearts let us finish the bowl; For we will be jolly, and drown melancholy: So here's to the health of each true-hearted soul. (I suspect this is a rewrite, but it's a good one.) "Hakes's teeth," acc. to Oxford, refers to the "long tubular or tusk-shaped shell of a scaphopod mollusc, esp. that of a mollusc belonging to the genus Dentalium.... The appearance of these shells on the sounding-lead was formerly an aid to navigation in British waters." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 07 Oct 23 - 11:31 AM Robert Bell & James Henry Dixon, eds. "Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England" (1857): THE SPANISH LADIES. THIS song is ancient , but we have no means of ascertaining at what period it was written. Captain Marryat, in his novel of Poor Jack, introduces it, and says it is old. It is a general favourite. The air is plaintive, and in the minor key. See [Chappell's] Popular Music. FAREWELL, and adieu to you Spanish ladies, Farewell, and adieu to you ladies of Spain! For we've received orders for to sail for old England, But we hope in a short time to see you again. We'll rant and we'll roar* like true British heroes, We'll rant and we'll roar across the salt seas, Until we strike soundings in the channel of old England; From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues. Then we hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys, We hove our ship to , for to strike soundings clear; We got soundings in ninety-five fathom, and boldly Up the channel of old England our course we did steer. The first land we made it was called the Deadman, Next, Ram's head off Plymouth, Start, Portland, and Wigh ; We passed by Beachy, by Fairleigh, and Dungeness, And hove our ship to, off the South Foreland light. Then a signal was made for the grand fleet to anchor All in the Downs, that night for to sleep; Then stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters, Haul all your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets. So let every man toss off a full bumper, Let every man toss off his full bowl; We'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy, So here's a good health to all true-hearted souls! "*Corrupted in modern copies into ‘we'll range and we'll rove.’ The reading in the text is the old reading. The phrase occurs in several old songs." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 23 - 03:14 AM Was it not the favourite song of Cecil Sharp? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST Date: 14 Oct 23 - 03:56 AM It is in the island of Ireland,hence the Orange Order,and green is associated with catholici FROM WIK Ihe Loyal Orange Institution, commonly known as the Orange Order, is an international Protestant fraternal order based in Northern Ireland and primarily associated with Ulster Protestants. It also has lodges in England, Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, as well as in parts of the Commonwealth of Nations and the United States.[1][2][3] The Orange Order was founded by Ulster Protestants in County Armagh in 1795, during a period of Protestant–Catholic sectarian conflict, as a fraternity sworn to maintain the Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. The all-island Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland was established in 1798. Its name is a tribute to the Dutch-born Protestant king William of Orange, who defeated Catholic king James II in the Williamite–Jacobite War (1689–1691). The Order is best known for its yearly marches, the biggest of which are held on or around 12 July (The Twelfth), a public holiday in Northern Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,groovy Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:45 AM An orangery a place in which oranges are grown. The 'appropriate' word would be Orangism (or Orangeism) but that term is not synonymous with Protestantism. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,rjm Date: 12 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM Thanks Lighter. I used to sing that version of 'Lowlands of Holland', and always wondered where the 'cold place where grows no green' came from. Not very accurate whether the song refers to the Netherlands, the Dutch East Indies or Australia! quote maybe it is allegorical a reference to ORANGERY[PROTESTANTISM] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST Date: 11 Oct 23 - 07:00 PM It was likely Melville's favorite. Chapter 40 of "Moby Dick" has the midnight watch singing this. It's mentioned again in “White Jacket,” and the poem “Tom Deadlight." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Oct 23 - 02:44 PM I love the modal tune but I have sung it to both. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 15 Oct 23 - 07:51 AM Steve, thanks for reminding me about "Jolly Sailors Bold"! I actually forgot that I have it. Somewhere. I've also canvassed ECCO for key phrases like "Spanish ladies," "rant an we'll roar/ rove," and "Ushant to Scilly" without finding another 18th century text. Nothing in the 17th either (EEBO) but Deloney's 1695 ballad "The Spanish Ladies Love," which bears no relationship beyond the title and a "Captain." GUEST, it's certainly one my favorites. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 23 - 03:14 AM Was it not the favourite song of Cecil Sharp? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM Sung by an actual Spanish lady. Very nice! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HApnGBRjVmU |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 23 - 02:52 PM Thanks, Jon Just about everything we've written here was in Stuart Frank's book 'Jolly Sailors Bold'. Never Mind. I've got all of the versions together now. A hypothetical ur version shouldn't be too difficult as versions are mostly very stable. The minor tune. Anyone else noted similarities with the tune for Corpus Christi Carol (Bells of Paradise) and the early tune for Hunting the Wren (Milder to Malder)? The 'I've been a seacook' line is in the whaleman's rewrite. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:53 AM A presumably ersatz Yankee version can be heard in the background of the "Moby Dick" episode of the cable series "Great Books" (1996): Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain. Our ship’s received orders, we sail for New England— But we hope in a short time to see you again. We’ll rant and we’ll roar, like true Yankee sailormen. We’ll rant and we’ll roar on deck and below. Until we sight Gay Head and old Martha’s Vineyard, Then straight up the channel to New Bedford we’ll go. I’ve been a sea cook and I’ve been a clipper man... [more inaudible] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:45 AM Bell & Dixon's text appeared earlier and similarly without provenance in the Percy Society's "Early English Poetry. Ballads" Vol. XVII (1846), which was edited by Dixon. This printing includes the note about the "plaintive tune" and "Poor Jack" (1840). Captain Marryat (1792-1848) gives the whole song (with one or two slightly variant lines). "Poor Jack" is set around 1800. According to the narrator, "[T]his song was very popular at that time among the seamen, and is now almost forgotten." Therefore "I shall, by inserting it here, for a short time rescue it from oblivion." Chappell's "Collection of English National Airs" (1838) includes the minor/modal tune, the first stanza (with "fine Spanish ladies"), and the note: "A popular old Sea Song, contributed by Lord Vernon. It is to be regretted that his Lordship could only recollect a portion of the words." Presumably the fifth Baron Vernon (1803-1866) is meant; otherwise Chappell should have written "the late Lord Vernon" (1779-1835). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:30 AM Thanks, Gibb The first line of that last verse is definitely in our song. Being such a popular song in the RN and probably a century old by then, it was probably revised several times, that is if the writer wasn't using his own creative abilities there. However, the first verse is almost verbatim the regular versions. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Gibb Sahib Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:22 AM Sorry if you already have this one... “The Man-of-War’s Man.” [chapter] Blackwood’s Edinburgh Magazine 11.60 (Jan. 1822). Song verses smatter the narrative. On page 20, there is // Farewell, and adieu to your grand Spanish ladies, Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain, For we've received orders to sail for Old England, But we hope in short time for to see you again. // After a few other fragments, there's this, which may belong to the same song // Then we'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy, Our spirits to cherish, our hopes, and our lives, And we'll pay all our debts with a flying foretop-sail, And so bid adieu to our sweethearts and wives. // |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST Date: 14 Oct 23 - 03:56 AM It is in the island of Ireland,hence the Orange Order,and green is associated with catholici FROM WIK Ihe Loyal Orange Institution, commonly known as the Orange Order, is an international Protestant fraternal order based in Northern Ireland and primarily associated with Ulster Protestants. It also has lodges in England, Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, as well as in parts of the Commonwealth of Nations and the United States.[1][2][3] The Orange Order was founded by Ulster Protestants in County Armagh in 1795, during a period of Protestant–Catholic sectarian conflict, as a fraternity sworn to maintain the Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. The all-island Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland was established in 1798. Its name is a tribute to the Dutch-born Protestant king William of Orange, who defeated Catholic king James II in the Williamite–Jacobite War (1689–1691). The Order is best known for its yearly marches, the biggest of which are held on or around 12 July (The Twelfth), a public holiday in Northern Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,groovy Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:45 AM An orangery a place in which oranges are grown. The 'appropriate' word would be Orangism (or Orangeism) but that term is not synonymous with Protestantism. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM Well we know it was popular amongst officers in the RN, but I'm not so sure how popular it was amongst merchant seamen. 'Good song'. Well, it has a great tune, and it has been adapted to other circumstances. I'll know more when I've looked at all of the sources. The tune has similarities with the old 'Derry Down' (King John and the Abbot of Canterbury) probably of the same vintage. This tune is arguably the most used tune ever in the western world, but you hardly ever hear it nowadays. Fashions come and go I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM Great work, Steve. But even if the song refers to the 17th century, it may not have been written or at least in circulation till much later. (That would explain "anchor/ spanker.") In any case it's surprising that such a good song should have existed from at least 1769 and have left so little trace for so long. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:07 AM Adieu to you, you ladies of Lisbon Adieu to you, you ladies of Spain For we've received orders to sail to old England We hope on a short time to be with you again. Chorus: We'll rant and we'll roar, boys, like brave English heroes We'll rant and we'll roar upon the salt seas Until we strike soundings in the channel of Old England From Nohant to Scully is thirty-five leagues. The first land we made it was called the deadman The ramhead of Plymouth doth start London white Sailed east beachy ship past folly and Underneys Until we roused the Forlan light. The signal being made our grand fleet to anchor All in the down that night for to sleep It was stand by your stoppers let go your shank painters Haul up your clew garnets stick out your fore sheets. Let every man loft of his full bumper Let every man taste of his full bowl It will furnish the blood it will drive away all sorrow So here is a health to all seamen so bold. It will drive away all of your sorrows it will drive away all melancholy So here's a good health to all brave hearted and bold Here's a health to each jovial and true hearted soul. Sloop Nellie, 1769, Captain Peter Pease, on passage from Dartmouth to London. Another interesting point is that he uses correct terminology for the ship's furniture, but gets just about all of the geographical names wrong, which is what you might expect from a sailor not familiar with the geography. In answer to a query in Mariner's Mirror November 1919 there ensued a series of replies going up to October 2021 which at one point provoked a short study of comparing different versions. An interesting response came in February 1920 from one L. G. C. Laughton, whose father, Sir John Laughton, told him 'that it was written and sung in the Grand Fleet under Russell when it first wintered on the coast of Spain (at Cadiz) in 1694/5. from internal evidence it seems fairly certain that it must have belonged to that war, when you had the use of Spanish ports, and when the Grand Fleet had not been split up, as happened soon afterwards, by the need of sending fleets and squadrons all over the world. And the song being so old, it is quite certain that 'spankers' ought never to be introduced into the last verse but one to rhyme with 'anchors' for the spanker was not introduced till the very end of the 18th century.' This would fit in nicely with the garbled 1769 version, the song being about 70 years old then. There are some responses on the history of the tune which I will collate later, with some suggestion of an Irish influence. NB: st1 'on', and chorus 'Nohant' and 'Scully' are quite likely misinterpretations of the ms. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 23 - 08:29 AM A few more observations having compared all of the earlier versions. The chorus is just given as the second stanza in most early versions, but Huntington 1769 gives it as the chorus. Could this just be Huntington bowing to modern versions? Chappell and the broadsides and Dixon just have it as the second verse. Anyone got access to the original 1769 manuscript? The theme of the song is not that exciting in terms of folksong. One can understand it being sung by RN officers aboard along with Dibdin songs, but it tells of no Naval engagement, is a bit jingoistic, but generally just describes a pretty uneventful passage. The actual text is quite stable apart from the obvious mondegreens. There is an important difference in the 1769 version. It lacks the second stanza and expands the last stanza into 2 stanzas. One could easily imagine that being the case with the original and because this is so repetitive it was shunted into one stanza by later singers/printers. I'll post this version shortly. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 23 - 04:03 PM So far I've checked the broadsides and the weirdest thing is the further you go back in time the more corrupt the versions become!! All I can suggest so far is that the later broadsides, even though corrupt to some degree, have gone back to more accurate versions from oral tradition. All earlier printed versions and the 1769 show strong evidence of oral tradition. My guess is that there was a readily available to Naval personnel original version on the go that spawned all of these oral versions that then found their way onto broadsides. We really must be talking about c1750 at the latest, so to our Naval experts, what would the British Navy be doing in Spain in the early 18th century, and presumably under friendly circumstances? BTW in my previous post, where I put 'much earlier', that was a senior moment on my part, of course Phil Sumaurez (not James) could easily have written it, the Nottingham and Mars incident was 1746. BTW2, the sloop Nellie in 1769 was on a merchant voyage from Dartmouth to London and the journal was Captain Peter Pease's, so passing though the Channel. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 12 Oct 23 - 12:27 PM The rhyming of "Plymouth" with "south" smacks of conscious archaism, but I'm no expert on this. Oddly, the Newcastle Journal credits Bell & Dixon, which had recently been published. In Lloyd's note on "Talcahuana Girls," "countless" means one or two, and "belongs to" means "should have been sung by but wasn't." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 23 - 10:44 AM I see from my indexes I haven't made a detailed study of different versions, so unless someone else has already done this, I'll make a start this week. Jon, I agree the Newcastle Journal must surely be a rewrite. I am hazarding a guess that the original would have been written by a Naval officer such as Capt. James Sumaurez who wrote the Nottingham and Mars ballad, but much earlier of course. I will start with the Pitts broadside and the Gam version. Flagging up anything else earlier than 1800 would be useful. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,rjm Date: 12 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM Thanks Lighter. I used to sing that version of 'Lowlands of Holland', and always wondered where the 'cold place where grows no green' came from. Not very accurate whether the song refers to the Netherlands, the Dutch East Indies or Australia! quote maybe it is allegorical a reference to ORANGERY[PROTESTANTISM] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 11 Oct 23 - 08:41 PM A uniquely technical and elaborate text, from the Newcastle Journal (July 11, 1857): Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies! Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain! For we've received orders for to sail from Gibraltar, But we hope in due time for to see you again. We cleared the Straits with both sheets a-flowing The wind keeping aft, for St. Vincent's we lay; We bowled along by the bluff Rock of Lisbon, And Finisterre showed when we'd got to Biscay. We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors, We'll rant and we'll roar all on the salt seas, Until we strike soundings in the Channel of Old England; From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues. We hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys; We hove our ship to, deep soundings to clear; We struck ninety fathom, then filled our main topsail, And smack through the chops of the Channel did steer. The first land we made it was called the Dodmon, From Ram-head it bears about west and by south; The botttom is reg'lar on hake's teeth and gravel And the lead is the guide when you're bound to Plymouth. So the Start Point we passed, and the steep Bill of Portland Swanage Bay, and back of the Island of Wight; We sailed by Beechey, by Fairlee, and Dungeness, And then we bore up to the South Foreland light. Then the signal 'twas made for the grand fleet to anchor, All in the Downs, that night for to meet; So stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters, Haul up your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets. We let go our best bower in eight fathoms water, In eight fathoms water our anchor we dropped, Straightway from the tier they paid out with a good will, We veered half a cable, then bitted and stopped. Now let every man enjoy his full bumper, To wives and to sweethearts let us finish the bowl; For we will be jolly, and drown melancholy: So here's to the health of each true-hearted soul. (I suspect this is a rewrite, but it's a good one.) "Hakes's teeth," acc. to Oxford, refers to the "long tubular or tusk-shaped shell of a scaphopod mollusc, esp. that of a mollusc belonging to the genus Dentalium.... The appearance of these shells on the sounding-lead was formerly an aid to navigation in British waters." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST Date: 11 Oct 23 - 07:00 PM It was likely Melville's favorite. Chapter 40 of "Moby Dick" has the midnight watch singing this. It's mentioned again in “White Jacket,” and the poem “Tom Deadlight." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 07 Oct 23 - 11:31 AM Robert Bell & James Henry Dixon, eds. "Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England" (1857): THE SPANISH LADIES. THIS song is ancient , but we have no means of ascertaining at what period it was written. Captain Marryat, in his novel of Poor Jack, introduces it, and says it is old. It is a general favourite. The air is plaintive, and in the minor key. See [Chappell's] Popular Music. FAREWELL, and adieu to you Spanish ladies, Farewell, and adieu to you ladies of Spain! For we've received orders for to sail for old England, But we hope in a short time to see you again. We'll rant and we'll roar* like true British heroes, We'll rant and we'll roar across the salt seas, Until we strike soundings in the channel of old England; From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues. Then we hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys, We hove our ship to , for to strike soundings clear; We got soundings in ninety-five fathom, and boldly Up the channel of old England our course we did steer. The first land we made it was called the Deadman, Next, Ram's head off Plymouth, Start, Portland, and Wigh ; We passed by Beachy, by Fairleigh, and Dungeness, And hove our ship to, off the South Foreland light. Then a signal was made for the grand fleet to anchor All in the Downs, that night for to sleep; Then stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters, Haul all your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets. So let every man toss off a full bumper, Let every man toss off his full bowl; We'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy, So here's a good health to all true-hearted souls! "*Corrupted in modern copies into ‘we'll range and we'll rove.’ The reading in the text is the old reading. The phrase occurs in several old songs." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Reinhard Date: 26 May 20 - 08:08 PM Navigation by depth sounding, see the thread Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,Hans Date: 26 May 20 - 04:10 PM Does anyone know where what the expression means "until we see bottom inside the two sinkers" in the Talcahuano version |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Steve Gardham Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM Just a little additional info to the earliest version we appear to have; the 1769 whaler's log version is in Huntington's second volume of whaling log songs The Gam, 2014, p144. The interesting thing about this version is that as one might expect almost all of the place names are garbled in some way but still recognisable. What this tells us is that the version comes from oral tradition and must have passed through several minds and mouths before reaching the source given here. I would hazard a guess that that passage of time and geographical space, taking into account the relatively poor communications of that era would give us a space of at least 10 years from its composition. One would expect that it would have appeared in some nautical collection soon after its composition, but this has not yet surfaced. Here's the appropriate stanza with the place names. Makes an interesting mondegreen study. The first land we made it was called the deadman the ramhead of Plymouth doth start London white Sailed east beachy ship past folly and Underneys Until we roused the Forlan light. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: Lighter Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM John, great research. I've always thought Dungeness was likely to be the older name, simply because it's more obscure than the world-famous "Dover" and thus harder to remember. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies From: GUEST,John Fannon Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM I have found this thread most useful when seeking some historical background notes for 'Spanish Ladies' which we intend to sing at a forthcoming event this month. Thanks to all. I have studied the geographical position of the landmarks mentioned in the song. 'Fairlight' has had many spellings over the years. The village is mentioned in records of 1220 as FARLEGH. Since then, many changes have occurred in the spelling, eg. in 1291 it was FARLEIGH; 1316, FEYRLEIGH; 1535, FARLEY; 1701,FAYRLIGHT; 1738, FARLEY and in 1823 the spelling is recorded as FAIRLIGHT. Dover and South Foreland are so close together that one seems superfluous. I think that 'We sailed on by Beachy and Fairlight and Dungeness' to be more logical. |
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