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BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?

beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM
Bobert 15 Sep 04 - 09:52 AM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 09:56 AM
Peace 15 Sep 04 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Casual Observer 15 Sep 04 - 09:58 AM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 09:58 AM
Jim Dixon 15 Sep 04 - 10:09 AM
Bill D 15 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,la-la 15 Sep 04 - 10:38 AM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM
Bill D 15 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 15 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 10:45 AM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,la-la 15 Sep 04 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,GI Joe 15 Sep 04 - 10:57 AM
CarolC 15 Sep 04 - 11:01 AM
Bill D 15 Sep 04 - 11:07 AM
M.Ted 15 Sep 04 - 11:15 AM
Charley Noble 15 Sep 04 - 11:29 AM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 11:29 AM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM
katlaughing 15 Sep 04 - 12:19 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Sep 04 - 12:26 PM
katlaughing 15 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM
sledge 15 Sep 04 - 12:40 PM
Don Firth 15 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM
artbrooks 15 Sep 04 - 12:53 PM
Ringer 15 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM
Joe Offer 15 Sep 04 - 01:32 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 01:54 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 02:00 PM
Bill D 15 Sep 04 - 04:49 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 05:18 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 05:20 PM
Bobert 15 Sep 04 - 05:26 PM
Nerd 15 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM
Nerd 15 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM
Kim C 15 Sep 04 - 05:39 PM
katlaughing 15 Sep 04 - 05:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 15 Sep 04 - 05:47 PM
beardedbruce 15 Sep 04 - 05:49 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 04 - 07:07 PM
freightdawg 15 Sep 04 - 07:34 PM
artbrooks 15 Sep 04 - 08:30 PM
Bill D 15 Sep 04 - 09:02 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 04 - 09:09 PM

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Subject: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

In a recent speech, Kerry said that not renewing the "assault weapons ban" would put military assult rifle on the street.

Kerry claims to be a gun owner.

Military assult rifles, since the mid 1940's, have been automatic weapons.

The Ban was against semi-automatic rifles that LOOKED like military ones.


But I guess it is ok for the "right" candidate to lie, without anyone screaming.



I quess if we outlaw plastic swords, that will keep people from getting hurt....


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:52 AM

Ask yer cop buddies how happy they are that the ban is over...

While I don't think much of Kerry, he isn't in the same league when it comes to lieing as Bush, who possesses olympic quality skills...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:56 AM

my cop buddies knew the ban had no effect at all.

And I just think that this supposedly superior candidate could do better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:57 AM

Big lies from Bush; little lies from Kerry.

It's a no-brainer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:58 AM

Big or little, a lie is still a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:58 AM

Yes, but Kerry has not even been elected yet, and is already lying. I guess he needs the practice?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:09 AM

I don't know whether Kerry lied, or made a mistake, or was absolutely right about this. I don't much care. He was not my first choice. I would rather have had Kucinich or Dean. But since Kerry is our only hope of defeating Bush, I'm supporting him. Bush led us into an unnecessary and unjust war. That's about the worst thing a president can do--way worse than any lie. We've got to get rid of him. End of story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM

crap, bruce! There is a huge difference between lying and disagreeing over interpretation of facts!

I, also, think that more dangerous weapons (that's 'more dangerous' AND 'more weapons') will now be on the streets, no matter WHAT hairs you split over the exact details of what constitutes 'automatic' and how big a magazine is..........am **I** lying?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,la-la
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:38 AM

From the quote above, bearded Bruce mentions automatic weapons, not Kerry, Kerry mentions assault weapons which depending on how they are made can be either. BB puts words in Kerrys mouth, what a dick.

We can now expect a convoluted display of semantics and nit picking as BB attempts to ensure that his view point becomes the universal truth, regardless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM

They are hardly "more" dangerous- except in superficial appearance.

Functionally, they are the same as those allowed under the ban.

"automatic" IS precisly defined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM

that has NOTHING to do with what I asked. You are the authority on guns (at least more than I) I asked about the use of the term lying


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM

I'll give a little gold star who can name any politician, of any political stripe, who has risen above the rank of dog catcher without lying.

What's hypocritical to me is that Bush, whose lies led to a war in which more than a thousand Americans and ten thousand Iraqis have been killed, is being uncritically supported by the same folks who were so upset about Bill Clinton lying about getting a blow job from Monica Lewinsky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:45 AM

GUEST, la-la:

Try reading my first post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:49 AM

BillD:


"I, also, think that more dangerous weapons (that's 'more dangerous' AND 'more weapons') will now be on the streets, no matter WHAT hairs you split over the exact details of what constitutes 'automatic' and how big a magazine is..........am **I** lying? "

Kerry stated, for his own political gain, that MILITARY ASSULT WEAPONS would be out on the streets. THAT is a lie.

You stated your opinion that more dangerous weapons would be there- which I believe to be incorrect, but can be argued ( if the bayonet would make a difference...)

Now, which logical flaw have you committed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,la-la
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:50 AM

Whats the point, you have already determined what the truth is, as against Kerrys "LIE". Any debate with you is futile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,GI Joe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:57 AM

Not so long ago, one of the most popular weapons being imported to the US was the Chinese SKS, this was a semi automatic weapon that had seen service around the globe as an assault rifle, but it sure as shit wasn't fully automatic.

So there you have it, an assault rifle that is not full auto!

Will this count as nit-picking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:01 AM

Yes they all lie (except maybe Kucinich). Yes, I do care, and I wish they would stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:07 AM

"THAT is a lie." ...you simply do not know that. John Kerry may just be disagreeing with you, and agreeing with me. Running for office does NOT necessarily make a man a liar.

For all practical purposes, the guns that HAVE been on the street and the guns that WILL now be allowed are 'assult weapons'. If you want to win the point, just claim that 'fully automatic' weapons will still be be 'officially' be banned. But if a criminal has a weapon that can use a larger clip, and can be fired 30 times in 5-10 seconds, then I don't wish to be around him. The MILITARY does not give fully automatic weapons to absolutely every soldier, if I understand it correctly. And....if I remember my news, most of those SEMI-automatic weapons which are now allowed can be modified reasonably easily to become fully automatic.

It gets kinda tedious to have disputes over minutae being propelled to the top of the Conservative agenda in order to distract and water down the real point. "Kerry wasn't wounded 'badly'" "Kerry voted for, then voted against..." red herrings should not decide an election........


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:15 AM

>Yes, but Kerry has not even been elected yet, and is already lying. I guess he needs the practice?

Does this mean that you think Kerry will be elected, BB?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:29 AM

The real question, BB, is why you would be supporting the re-election of GWB. His invasion of Iraq while militarily successfulis now mired in a country-wide insurrection which ties down our armed forces, bankrupts our economy, alienates major allies, and mobilizes radical Moslems all over the world against us. The Bush administration has made a gross miscalulation in their planning and implementation of this discretionary war.

But do you care or even realize what a disastor this misadventure is?

Or would you prefer to nitpick?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:29 AM

" The MILITARY does not give fully automatic weapons to absolutely every soldier, if I understand it correctly."

You mean like M16s?


And I HOPE he is not elected- but it could happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM

And I guess the answer from the any one but Bush group is no, it does not matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:19 PM

When Bush lied, Americans died, as has been said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:26 PM

BB does not discuss what the ban entailed - the ban prohibited flash guards, bayonet mounts and the rifle's stock had to be fixed - it was not allowed to fold.   The magazine could only hold up to 10 bullets.

Even with the ban lifted, semi-automatic or automatic weapons are still banned.   The guns that were banned are no longer being manufactured.

The 19 weapons that were specifically banned were military-style weapons.

Whether you agree or disagree with Kerry, it is hard to call him a liar for his stance. That is using semantics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM

FWIW, here's what Kerry actually said," "So, tomorrow for the first time in 10 years when a killer walks into a gun shop, when a terrorist goes to a gun show somewhere in America, when they want to purchase an AK-47 or some other military assault weapon, they're going to hear one word: 'sure,"' he added."

BUT, NOT in California, which has its own ban on these types of weapons; has ahd since 1990. Wonder what Arnold thinks of that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: sledge
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:40 PM

We probably don't want to know What Arnie thinks, some advice I heard from Vienna, Voting for a right wing Austrian is not a good idea, look what happened last time we tried it".

Cheers

Sledge


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM

Why would a sport shooter want or need a rifle with a folding stock (one of the characteristics of formerly banned weapons)? Of course, it might be more convenient to carry (like under a topcoat). Why would a sport shooter want or need a rifle with a flash suppressor (another characteristic of the formerly banned weapons)? Unless he wanted to shoot at something (or someone) without giving his own position away (like the Washington. D.C. snipers hiding in the trunk of a car). And pistol grips fore and aft. They make it easier to hold the weapon steady if one is using it fully automatic, or rapid fire as a semi-automatic. And it only takes a modicum of gunsmithing skill to convert a semi-automatic to fully automatic. In most cases, all you have to do is file down the sear-pin. And why in the world would a sport shooter want a thirty-round magazine?

I have done a lot of sport shooting, mostly target-shooting with handguns. I own several firearms, so I can hardly be accused of being "anti-gun." I see no rational reason why anyone without criminal intent, or a childish urge to "play war," or paranoia of the "fear of black helicopters" sort would even want a weapon of this kind.

And as far a Kerry lying is concerned, what he said was hardly a lie. Not all military assault weapons are fully automatic. And although Kerry was not my first choice. The best reason I can think of for voting for Kerry (or SpongeBob SquarePants for that matter) is the thought of four more years of George W. Bush.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:53 PM

The US Army's standard issue rifle from shortly after the Korean War until well into the Vietnam War was the M-14. We carried them in Korea in 1969. The M-14 was 7.62 NATO caliber, about the same as the Soviet 7.65 that the Kalashnikov (AK-47/AKM/AK-74) fires. It is semi-automatic but anyone could empty its 20-round magazine in somewhat less than 10 seconds, and it certainly fits anyone's definition of an "assult weapon." The AK, in its various military configurations, includes a selector switch that allows fully automatic fire. The military version of the M-16, while not otherwise similar, also has automatic fire capability. However, both the M-16 and AK are made in a "sporting" model that lacks the selector; any skilled machinist can make a switch and do the internal modifications required to convert the semi-automatic version back to the automatic version.

The assault weapon ban did not cover all semi-automatic weapons. This term includes all weapons (including automatic pistols) that don't have to be recocked after every shot. The ban only covered weapons that met a specific definition. All automatic weapons are still banned in the US unless the owner has a special license.

All that being said, its a damn shame that the Republican-controlled Congress wouldn't send a renewal forward for signature. Mr. Bush did say he'd sign it if he got it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Ringer
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM

To this dispassionate (well, almost) observer from the UK, it seems that most posters here have a visceral hatred of Mr Bush, and that Mr Kerry gets an easy ride, on the basis, I presume, that "any enemy of someone I hate is my ally".

Or have I missed the threads about Mr Kerry's adventures in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, Swift Boat Veterans, and fake CBS memos?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:32 PM

The "assault weapons ban" is certainly not as far-reaching as I'd like to see. In fact, it's completely unsatisfactory - but it's the best compromise that could get through Congress, and it does make it a little harder for people to get guns that can kill a lot of people quickly. I'll admit it's a complicated, bureaucratic thing that makes a lot of gun owners unhappy - but maybe the gun owners should support this law because it's a lot less that gun control supporters want.

So, Bruce, I don't think it's honest to say that Kerry lied. He used verbal shortcuts and failed to give a three-page legal definition when he spoke against the repeal of the ban, but who can blame him? Give the guy a break. Disagree with him on issues - but don't call him a liar, just because he didn't split the hairs quite properly. The issue is that he supports gun control and you don't. It's not a matter of dishonesty, at least not on his part.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:54 PM

Ands if Bush told what he thought was true, but it turns out was not, HE is a liar?

The M-14 was a fully automatic weapon. ONLY the civilian versions did not have the mode select- and they were NOT military assult weapons....


So, If you come in with a Martin D45, you would not correct me if I called it a Vega Banjo?
And claimed that outlawing the future manufacture of it would stop blugrass from being played?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 02:00 PM

BillD:

"There is a huge difference between lying and disagreeing over interpretation of facts!"

So, you agree that Bush DID NOT lie about the WMD in Iraq?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 04:49 PM

sure, bruce...I will stipulate that he didn't lie. I will just believe that he was careless in his choice of intelligence data, and used INCREDIBLY bad judgement about what he did. Claiming that "The world is safer with Saddam gone" is hollow posturing to defend a bad decision.

I will continue to suspect that he fully intended to invade Iraq no matter what the intelligence showed Can I prove this? Of course not, but he spent months preparing the way for that decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM

When Dick Cheney said that we have proof of the existance of WMD, and then find that there was no proof - does that make Cheney:
a) a liar
b) a poor judge of character in the information gathering personnel
c) quick to rush to judgement
d) all of the above


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM

I can live with that...

one down, .....


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:18 PM

WFDU - Ron Olesko:

Have you read the british report that was given the Bush Administration? Did you notice the russian statement to them that Iraq was planning further terrorosm against the US? What would you have done, after the failure to act before 9/11?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:20 PM

But let us get back to the idea that you are holding Bush to a different standard of truth than you are holding Kerry to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:26 PM

The problem is than when it comes down to it it is very difficult to *prove* that Bush lies, even though there are millions of folks who have strong feelings thsat he is and continues to do so. But if he actually doesn't make an effort to keep up with facts then, while he may not be lieing, he certainly is not qualified to lead the world's remaininf super power.

(Oh, but those facts are so hard to get, Bobert.)

Oh? Let's take "No Child Left Behind" for instance. Bush pumps out his chest and talkes about this great achievement on the part of his administartion. Problem is is that the money he asked for and got, he ain't spending? And a visit to just about any inner city school in the bad part of town should be ampl proof that lots kids are being left behind. But if Bush doesn't know this then when he pumps out his chest boasting about "No Child Left Behind", then it's not really a lie. Just ignorance of the facts...

During the build up to war there were lots of folks trying to present fact and opinions that differed from the set of facts and opinions held by the folks within the Bush administration. But since Bush made no effort to hear anything except his own "office-speak" he limited himself to just the part of the story that was convient and supported his thirst for arracking Iraq. Did he lie. Well, again, hard to prove. But if he didn't then there can be no other arguement except that he was ignorant of the facts. Looking back at the very reasons for going to war being unraveled almost daily by experts not in the Bush inner circle, Scott Ritter being one, it seems that Bush wanted to be kept ignorant. To me that may not consitute leing but it certainly isn't exactly honest either.

So, I'll grant BB the possibility that Bush doesn't lie if he will in turn asmit that if that is the case than Bush is one ignorance feller to have gotten as far as he's gotten...

One or the other...

And, BTW, BB, I predicted on another thread that someone would jump in say "Well, my cop friends disagree with you, Bobert.." Is BB lieing? Probably not. He just may not know many cops or those he knows are folks who just happen to agree with his point of view. Again, BB may not be lieing. Only he knows. But if he isn't then maybe he's just ignorant on this issue?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM

ArtBrooks:

The US Army's standard issue rifle from shortly after the Korean War until well into the Vietnam War was the M-14. We carried them in Korea in 1969. The M-14 was 7.62 NATO caliber, about the same as the Soviet 7.65 that the Kalashnikov (AK-47/AKM/AK-74) fires. It is semi-automatic but anyone could empty its 20-round magazine in somewhat less than 10 seconds, and it certainly fits anyone's definition of an "assult weapon."

BeardedBruce:

The M-14 was a fully automatic weapon. ONLY the civilian versions did not have the mode select- and they were NOT military assult weapons....

So now you are saying that Art is a liar about the kind of weapon he carried in Korea, too? Or could it be that he was mistaken?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM

Or could it be that Bruce is a Liar? Or is HE mistaken?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

Or maybe I know different police officers than you do.


It actually depends on what you ask. If you ask " Do you want to be faced with criminals having automatic weapons?" ALL the people responding will say no- but that has no relationship to the Ban. Automatic weapons have been controlled since the 1930's. If you ask them if the strap swivel makes them worry, ALL of them will say no.

Maybe you are just ignorant on the issue, Bobert. My point is that Kerry, who claims to be a gun owner, is distorting the truth (lieing) for his own political gain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:39 PM

"So, tomorrow for the first time in 10 years when a killer walks into a gun shop, when a terrorist goes to a gun show somewhere in America, when they want to purchase an AK-47 or some other military assault weapon, they're going to hear one word: 'sure,"' he added."

Not if they already have a criminal record.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:46 PM

If ya'll are going to split such hairs, it is spelt lying, fwiw.

KimC, I think the assumption was most people would understand he meant would-be killers?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:47 PM

BB - I am not holding anyone to a different standard, no matter what you may think.   Any president that would have relied on the British report and ignored our own intelligence gathering (well, maybe that is a good thing) or UNSCOM's report that there was no evidence of existing WMD's and that they had evidence that the nerve gas lost lethality as late as 1991, yes, he should have given it second thought.   Lie?   In this case, yes.

Waiting for the one report that justifies your position when other evidence points to alternate evidence is just wrong.   It is more than politics, it is logic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 05:49 PM

and not if it is a real AK47 ( they were fully automatic) and not if it is a real military assult weapon of the last 50 years.... Of course, they still need to fill out all the paperwork, prove they don't have a criminal record, are a resident of that state, etc....

and then they can get one that has a strap on it!


Unless the local laws prohibit it. Did you know that by the definition Massachusetts uses, the gun on the back of their quarter is prohibited? ..Bayonet, sling, and fires the entire magazine ( of one shot) in one pull of the trigger. Don't want to have any Minute men out there....


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:07 PM

To answer your question briefly, BB. Yes. People like yourself who are already opposed to Kerry care if he lies.

It works exactly the same way with George Bush. His supporters don't care if he lies. It's the people who are against him who care!

Look up any politician one could care to mention...and you will find that this simple and elegant analysis applies! :-) People care when those they are vehemently against lie! They are oblivious to the lies told by those they support. In fact, they generally believe the lies told by people they support...

You've just got those old partisan blues, my friend. It's a disease afflicting most people who've grown up in a partisan system involving party politics. Such systems are ludicrous and are highly unlikely to provide good government. A century from now people will look back on this political era the way we presently look back on the era when a royal family had "divine right" to govern. This era is dominated by big money lobbying which controls the parties, and the public has very little to do with influencing or controlling the process. They just rubber stamp it after the fact...after being lied to and given false promises by people who don't really represent them in the first place.

I'll tell you something bluntly obvious to a neutral observer: Kerry and Bush both lie, and so do most if not all of their underlings in the system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: freightdawg
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:34 PM

Ron, we knew that Hussein had the weapons (the gas, anyway) because he used it on the Khurdish people after the first Gulf war.

Bush was not the only leader of a nation saying that Hussein had the weapons and was more than willing to use them.

What is galling to me is not that we could not find any WMDs. That is disappointing to a point, and reassuring to a point. I do wonder where his stockpile went. Were they destroyed (and there is no evidence they were destroyed) or were they simply moved?

What is really galling to me is that Hussein brutally murdered thousands of his enemies with a vicious gas bomb and there is no, none, zip, nada, zero acceptance of that fact in the mainstream media. He did have the WMDs and he used the WMDs. But he won't again.

Anyway, sorry for the thread creep. For my two cents on the subject matter, we had better care if Kerry lies, just as we had better care if Bush lies, just as we should have cared when Clinton lied, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon,.......

The point is lying reveals a character flaw. It seems to be systemic among politicians, but we should make them pay for it. Will we? Nope. The utterances of our politicians are just our own whispers mic'd through a bullhorn.

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 08:30 PM

The M-14 was semi-automatic. In fact, if I recall the mantra correctly, it was a "magazine-fed, gas-operated, semi-automatic shoulder weapon." It had a varient, the M-14A1, with a selector switch and an automatic-fire option. I had one of these for a while in Vietnam, when I was riding convoys and wanted something that would accurately reach out more than 200 meters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:02 PM

I will try it one more time....there is a MAJOR difference between LYING and emphasizing those aspects of the facts that you want heard.

Most people, including politicians, try to point to things that will best support their position, but calling Kerry a liar ["is distorting the truth (lieing)"] over subtle points about the precise definition of 'assult weapons' is silly! Kerry, I assume, had weapons in Viet Nam that were quite similar to those he is now against being available in local gun shops. Did he or didn't he describe them precisely? I am not the expert, but his point is clear--that high powered weapons that can be fired very fast, with large magazines, do not need to be available to your average hunter or homeowner....or potential drug dealer, etc.**IF** they are purchased 'legally', some will eventually be sold, stolen, converted, etc. in ways which increase the overall danger.

I saw 2 interviews with Wayne de LaPierre, chief honcho of NRA, in the last couple days, and he kept insisting that the correct answer is that "existing gun laws should be enforced". Oh, great...sure...right...FINE idea. By whom? By the local police officers who LOVE the idea that the 'enforcment' of those laws just got harder and more dangerous because the wrong people will have the bigger guns! There have been petitions by police officers (who do know a bit about this) all over the country, pleading with Congress not to make their job harder....sorry guys, just hope the bad guys are bad shots....


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:09 PM

It's a poor rifle owner who can't turn his semi-auto to a full auto in a few minutes.


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