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BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?

Little Hawk 24 Sep 04 - 07:59 PM
Bill D 24 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Larry K 24 Sep 04 - 04:23 PM
Nerd 24 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM
Nerd 24 Sep 04 - 10:48 AM
beardedbruce 24 Sep 04 - 04:21 AM
beardedbruce 24 Sep 04 - 04:20 AM
beardedbruce 24 Sep 04 - 01:30 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Sep 04 - 12:33 AM
Nerd 24 Sep 04 - 12:09 AM
beardedbruce 23 Sep 04 - 10:02 PM
Bill D 23 Sep 04 - 07:06 PM
beardedbruce 23 Sep 04 - 07:04 PM
Nerd 23 Sep 04 - 04:02 PM
Nerd 23 Sep 04 - 11:52 AM
artbrooks 23 Sep 04 - 09:29 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 04 - 08:17 AM
beardedbruce 23 Sep 04 - 04:18 AM
beardedbruce 23 Sep 04 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 23 Sep 04 - 04:01 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 04 - 02:50 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 04 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 23 Sep 04 - 01:05 AM
GUEST,Sledge 23 Sep 04 - 12:48 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 04 - 12:45 AM
Bill D 23 Sep 04 - 12:39 AM
Bill D 23 Sep 04 - 12:27 AM
beardedbruce 23 Sep 04 - 12:24 AM
Bill D 23 Sep 04 - 12:20 AM
beardedbruce 23 Sep 04 - 12:19 AM
beardedbruce 23 Sep 04 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 23 Sep 04 - 12:12 AM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 11:49 PM
Bill D 22 Sep 04 - 11:48 PM
Bill D 22 Sep 04 - 11:45 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 11:44 PM
Bill D 22 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM
Bobert 22 Sep 04 - 11:34 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 22 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 10:42 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 10:34 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 10:33 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM
Peace 22 Sep 04 - 10:23 PM
Nerd 22 Sep 04 - 10:23 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 10:22 PM
Jeri 22 Sep 04 - 10:09 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 04 - 10:08 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:59 PM

Thank God...at last a cure for my insomnia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:10 PM

CBS did not forge any documents...they were careless. The facts were true---it is just sad that someone cheated and tried to 'enhance' already true information WITH forged documents.

CBS oughta have more sense than to bite, but they ain't criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM

"Democrats have lower standards than republicans"

Damn right. Spiro Agnew was a Democrat. So was Nixon. And John Mitchell. And all those administration guys convicted when Reagan was president. And all the Enron guys are Democrats; you can tell by looking at where their campaign contributions went. And that twit who won his election by claiming that Max Cleland -- who left two legs and an arm in Vietnam -- was disloyal, he was a Democrat.

Why has nobody but LarryK pointed this out? We've been blind fools! Fools!

clint

(for Larry's benefit: this is actually what they call sarcasm. Look it up.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:23 PM

All politicians lie to some degree.    Lets separate campaign promises from lies however.    When Kerry promises 10 million new jobs will anyone consider that a lie if it doesn't happen?   All politicians make campaign promises which should be ignored.

As for Kerry lying:

This week he said he has only had one position on Iraq- can anyone say with a straight face that is not a lie?
He said he was in Cambodia Christmas 1968 when Nixon was president- two lies for the price of one-
He said he was co chair of the intelligence committee when it was actually Bob Kerry
When he said that 1 million african americans were deprived there right to vote when all the investigations proved that was blantantly untrue.   (In detroit the democrats register dead african americans and non existant people to vote per the Detroit Free Press- Chicago has nothing on us)

I could go on and on.   Why bother.   I don't think it matters.   Democrats have lower standards than republicans.   You will vote for a Torecelli, Condit, McGreevy, or any other fellon you think can win.
When Republican Ryan has a scandal he drops out of the race because he knows republicans won't support him.

Could you imagine the reaction if it was Fox news that had forged documents instead of CBS.   Their license would have been revoked the following day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM

Also, bb, here is your initial claim:

In a recent speech, Kerry said that not renewing the "assault weapons ban" would put military assult rifle on the street.

So, where did he say "Military assult rifle," or even "military assault rifles?" He didn't.

He said two things: that cops wanted the ban renewed because they felt it would help keep machine guns off the streets. Even though machine guns were not specifically covered by the ban, this is an arguable position in many ways. For example, shipments of now-legal semi-automatics could be used to hide and therefore assist in the smuggling of still-illegal automatics, since they look essentially similar.   In any case, Kerry was making claims about police officers' beliefs, not the actual effects of the ban.

Second, he argued that if you tried to buy an "AK 47 or some other military assault weapon" you could do so. We have learned on this thread that the AK 47 can probably be modified into a now-legal gun that only fired in semi-automatic mode. Whether it would still be an AK-47 is a technicality that I don't think Kerry knows. The rest of his statement, that semi-automatic military assault weapons are now legal, is true.

So nothing Kerry said is necessarily false. If you want to prove it's false you have to prove that

1) No police officers believed that the ban was helping to keep machine guns off the streets.

2) There are no semi-automatic military assault weapons.

We have dealt ad nasaeum with the latter; everyone from the US Government to the Gun Lobby agrees they exist.

So what about the former, bb?

I also think it's interesting that you began claiming he was lying by

1) lying yourself, by claiming he said "assault rifles"

2) not quoting him directly.

And that you then blamed ME for not knowing which part of what you didn't quote you were claiming was a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:48 AM

Beardedbruce,

My point is that you have reduced this to niggling arguments over technicalities of guns. If that's what you're claiming Kerry lied about, you have to prove he knows all these technicalities that you had to laboriously extract from fifteen different biased web sites in order to argue. Do you REALLY think that, or are you just deperate to claim he was lying? And don't fall back on your deeply stupid repeated claim that Kerry "claims he is a gun owner" so he must know this shit. Unlike Kerry, that dog won't hunt!

You also have to show, by the way, that his actual statements are not true, not the statements you claim he made. This is the same argument conservatives use to argue that Bush did not lie about yellowcake Uranium, for example: his actual statement was that "The British Government has learned" that Saddam tried to get the yellowcake; he omitted to mention that then the CIA rejected that learning as probably false. But his actual statement was not false, so he didn't lie, right?

So, bb, in your quote, Kerry claimed that police officers are asking for this ban to remain in place because they believe the number of machine guns on the street will increase without it. So disprove THAT, not what you want to claim Kerry said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:21 AM

(by the way, you might be more credible on this topic if you got your facts right more than half the time).


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:20 AM

btw, Nerd:

"Kerry never mentioned the word "machinegun." So what the BATF considers a "machinegun" is irrelevant to the question of whether he lied."

You have made another false statement. He did mention machine gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 01:30 AM

"Police officers -- police officers -- begging the president all across our country: Keep this ban in place so we don't have to walk into a drug bust staring the down the barrel of a military machine gun, of an Uzi or an AK-47." - John Kerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:33 AM

Look, I bitch about Bush's lies because he used them to get us into a stupid unwinnable vanity war. Kerry's presumed lies about assault weapons didn't do that.

But It ain't the lies that hurt my body; it's the getting us into the stupid unwinnable vanity war when he should have and could have known better. Christ, the Canadians knew better. Most of the world knew better except for Tony Blair. Evn the Turks had to be bribed.

And I wouldn't care if he lied about the environment as long as he didn't damage it. But he's damaging it.

Same way I wouldn't care about Clinton's lies unless I was Hillary.

But he used those lies to hurt the people in my country, and I care about that.

And as soon as Kerry uses lies to hurt the people in my country I'll care.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:09 AM

Okay, bb.

You've gotten this down to the difference between Assault RIFLE, which you claim on the basis of some random websites like "your encyclopedia," is always fully automatic (although several posters here have disagreed with you on this) and assault WEAPON, which can be all sorts of things according to these same sites, including semi-automatic rifles and handguns.

So Kerry lied because he spoke of assault RIFLES, not assault WEAPONS.

Here is the quote from katlaughing's earlier post:

FWIW, here's what Kerry actually said," "So, tomorrow for the first time in 10 years when a killer walks into a gun shop, when a terrorist goes to a gun show somewhere in America, when they want to purchase an AK-47 or some other military assault weapon, they're going to hear one word: 'sure,"' he added."

Here is one of your earlier postings:

Kerry stated, for his own political gain, that MILITARY ASSULT WEAPONS would be out on the streets.

So you yourself have previously admitted that he said "weapons," not "rifles," but NOW the lie he supposedly told hinges on his having used the word "rifle."

bb, this is getting embarrassing, man. You need to move on from this point.

(by the way, you might be more credible on this topic if you spelled "assault" correctly more than half the time).


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 10:02 PM

definition of assult rifle

discussion of difference between assault rifles and assault weapons.

And Kerry stated that not renewing the "assault weapons ban" would put military assault rifles on the street.

1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2. To convey a false image or impression.

Kerry lied.

Bush has lied.

... I think my new motto will be " No blood for ketchup!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 07:06 PM

*Bill D looks in...rolls his eyes at the irrelevant repetition, and sneaks out again*


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 07:04 PM

by definition, an automatic weapon is a machine gun- see an earlier post.


"In addition, any weapon that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot automatically, more than one shot at a time by a single trigger pull, is legally considered to be a machine gun."


You are obviously grasping at straws now, Nerd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 04:02 PM

Ha! That huge document bb points out from the BATF turns out to be totally irrelevant. It does not define automatic or semi-automatic weapons. He points to a paragraph that defines what the rest of the document means by "machinegun."

Guess what, bb? Kerry never mentioned the word "machinegun." So what the BATF considers a "machinegun" is irrelevant to the question of whether he lied.

You are obviously grasping at straws now, bb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:52 AM

Sorry, bb. We actually cross-posted there (10:22/10:23 PM yesterday). My reference to the "Looney Gun Site" was the one from your PREVIOUS post (Guardian Angel), not the BATF. Your BATF posting was made while I was typing that up.

But my point is that the BATF, on other of its sites, DOES recognize the existence of semi-automatic military assault weapons. I have posted the URL, now way down in the thread, and I assume you never looked at it or you would have given up this line of argument. Also, the Canadian Government and several state governments. Remember them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 09:29 AM

Actually, Title 26 of the US Code has nothing to do with the BATF. Title 26 covers the IRS. BATF is under Title 27. Title 27 does not define "assault weapons," or if it does I could not find it, but it does discuss "semiautomatic assault weapons" at length. The link is here, but you will have to scroll down to the Ss in definitions for semiautomatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 08:17 AM

Picture of bb in late-thread form here....


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 04:18 AM

and here is Iran...


Since Iran just announced that they will launch a satellite in April of 2005.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 04:12 AM

page of reports, including British, on Iraqi WMD


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 04:01 AM

Guest 23 Sep 04 - 02:45 AM

I don't know if I've read "the British Report" or not. If you would kindly post a link, I will. However I am basing my opinions on Bush's actions rather than on what information he had, since that is unknown to me. And ultimately unknowable, since he may not have read every bit of information existing. (I use "Bush's" as shorthand for the whole bloody crew; Cheney, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft, etc..)

I am supposing that Colin Powell presented the administration's best case -- why would he not? -- and it wasn't convincing at the time. I had expected it to be proof, as was promised, but it was only the assertions that Powell disclaimed.

And Bush was obviously intending war with Iraq no matter what the inspectors found, no matter if Hussein were deposed (he admitted that). Well, I'm too tired tonight to go into it.

Guest 23 Sep 04 - 02:50 AM

I understand there is an upsurge in the sale of "assault rifles" whatever they may be. I don't think it's cause for alarm, the assault rifle ban was mostly a cosmetic ban as far as I can tell. I don't know at what point the typical political bullshit overstatement becomes a lie; you may call what Kerry said a lie if you like, as long as you apply the same standards to everyone, including Republicans. As in "If you're not with us you're aiding the terrorists," which we have heard in many forms, notably from Mr Ashcroft.

And all lies are not created equal; lying to compliment a lady is obviously not as sinful as lying to start a war. I hope it's obvious anyway. Like I said, I'm tired, and I can't go any farther tonight.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:50 AM

—lie2 v. lied, lying, lies.
—intr.
1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2. To convey a false image or impression.



And isn't this EXACTLY what I have stated that Kerry has done re the Assult Weapons Ban? YOU are agreeing that he lied.

The IMPRESSION that he tried to make was that automatic weapons would flood the streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:45 AM

Sledge:

"a qoute from a pro-gun website " You are talking about the BATF site, I guess...

Clint:

Have you read the British report?
It is too long to post here- and I have put a blue clickey on previous threads. Do you need it again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 01:05 AM

"And did you read the last paragraph- "the U.S. position was that some analysts thought that the trailers could possibly have been used for menufacturing weapons."

They could "possibly" been used for a hell of a lot of things. Hauling milk cans. "Possibly" doesn't justify killing people and you know it.

And the whole damn presentation was a lie. It *was* assertions, not fact.

—lie2 v. lied, lying, lies.
—intr.
1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2. To convey a false image or impression.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:48 AM

And still bb fails to answer the question posed by the title to his own thread, do we see the proof that Kerry lied, no we don't. What we do get is innuendo, obfuscation and evasion, we get nitpicking over the M14 and what agency says what, a qoute from a pro-gun website and a bit of "but your lot said this about Bush" the only thing missing from the last bit is where he sticks his tongue out and goes "Nyeeeer" while making faces.

Still we have nothing to back up the assertion that Kerry lied, so thread drift aside, put up or shut up, wheres the proof?

And yes I have read all your posts bb.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:45 AM

BillD:

"I saw videos of those trailers!,,,they were almost empty shells with almost no way to decide what they once were.....Colin Powell was putting on a brave face and hoping! "

You saw these videos BEFORE the attack on Iraq? Or was this more hind-sight?

"so? If he was in technical violation in some way, that is grounds for sanctions and more investigations..NOT, as I have said, full scale war, when there was NO concrete evidence he had any serious weapons!!!!!! "

There were already sanctions ( being violated by France) and more investigations- Don't you remember the resolution in October, with an attack in, what, March? And did you read the British report?

Have a good night. Sleep well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:39 AM

"The Russian government has stated that they gave Bush warnings of a planned terrorist attack on the US by Iraqi-supported terrorists."

buried in that sentence are 4 (four) ambiguous 'maybes'...you do NOT declare a major war on that kind of slippery evidence...

"Saddam refused to comply with the cease-fire terms..."

so? If he was in technical violation in some way, that is grounds for sanctions and more investigations..NOT, as I have said, full scale war, when there was NO concrete evidence he had any serious weapons!!!!!!

The pre-emptive strike business is on really thin ice.....aren't there 5-6 or 10 MORE countries that could qualify under Bush's formula? Wanta see what happen if we do?

(I'm going to bed)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:27 AM

"... the trailers could possibly have been used for..." "possibly"??? and for THAT we bombed and killed and turned our reputation inside out?

I saw videos of those trailers!,,,they were almost empty shells with almost no way to decide what they once were.....Colin Powell was putting on a brave face and hoping!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:24 AM

The Russian government has stated that they gave Bush warnings of a planned terrorist attack on the US by Iraqi-supported terrorists.

Have you read the British report? And is the FACT that Saddam refused to comply with the cease-fire terms of no interest to you? We yelled "stop, or I'll shoot!" a lot more than three times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:20 AM

"Which ones did you read?"...which ones did YOU read saying they were? You made that claim that there was evidence Iraq was 'planning' attacks.....(I have no doubt that 'ol Saddam would cheerfully have done us damage if he could, but NO one had real evidence he could and/OR was planning any)

sorry...but the inspectors had tried off & on for years to find serious weapons. If the report was "thought to be valid", it was careless thinking, considering other evidence and NON-evidence. That report justified further investigation, not an $87 billion Vietnam style quagmire and 1000 dead soldiers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:19 AM

Hardly a lie, Clint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:17 AM

Clint:

"Trailers Of Mass Destruction..."You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons....They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two.* And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them." (italics ours) --WP, May 31, 2003
more lies

*At the time of this statement, the U.S. position was that some analysts thought that the trailers could possibly have been used for menufacturing weapons. --Politex, 06.09.03


And did you read the last paragraph- "the U.S. position was that some analysts thought that the trailers could possibly have been used for menufacturing weapons." Have your read the (now discredited) British report? After you have, tell me that a competent President would NOT have attacked Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:12 AM

bb:

1. you said "So, when, before the invasion, did Bush LIE about Iraq? Show me some proof." I gave you an example, and cited sources. Proof as good as your info about Kerry. You ignore it.

2. You said 'Hindsight is 20/20- but he had to deal with what appeared to be a "clear and present danger"' I watched Powell's slideshow on tv. He kept saying "Facts, not assertions," as he showed his pictures. I said to my wife, "But all he's giving us IS assertions." I felt bad about that; I have a certain respect for Powell. But that's how it was. And this was supposed to be the justification for war; presumably the administration's *best* case.

Now if an elderly country boy from the Idaho Panhandle could see that there was no proof -- without benefit of hindsight --, why couldn't the president of our country?

Lying or incompetence, bruce. I see no third alternative.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:49 PM

"Those 'intelligence reports' from Russia hardly said they were 'planning' to attack us! "

Which ones did you read?


And the British report was flawed and based on weak information... "

I read the report. You are judgeing after the fact- at the time it was presented, it was thought to be valid- and that was what Bush based his decisions upon. Hindsight is 20/20- but he had to deal with what appeared to be a "clear and present danger", from a source that had USED WMD in the past, and refused to account for the stocks that it was supposed to have given up under the ceasefire terms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:48 PM

"Is that an "unnecessarily extreme characterization of Kerry's views?"

that is not a characterization at all, as quoted....calling him a liar IS unnesessarily extreme....which is what started this ...umm...discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:45 PM

Those 'intelligence reports' from Russia hardly said they were 'planning' to attack us! And the British report was flawed and based on weak information... Going to a full scale war without more SOLID evidence merely leads to the suspicion that Bush had **NO OTHER PLAN IN MIND** from the beginning, and was looking for any excuse, and thus gobbled up bad intelligence to justify his intentions....

Don't ask me to 'prove' that, but people who are in even better position to know than I have said essentially the same thing. Bush didn't have to 'ignore' those reports, he could have just checked them out better! Then he would have looked somewhat Presidential, not incompetent..


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:44 PM

BillD,
"In a recent speech, Kerry said that not renewing the "assault weapons ban" would put military assult rifle on the street."

Is that an "unnecessarily extreme characterization of Kerry's views. "?


Gee, I thought that an actual statement by a person might represent his view.




"we consider his actions and choices poorly planned and indefensible."

And that is the point that some would argue- The assumption seems to be that all must accept that as given- Some of us feel that the actions and choices were the best possible ones, given the information that was available, and the situation as it existed at the time. Not that they were good choices: just the best that could be made at that time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

bruce--give it up. You BEGAN this thread with an unnecessarily extreme characterization of Kerry's views. When you were called on it, you tried to change the issue to 1) a technical nit-pic over definition of gun types and 2) a hollow, vague claim that "your side did the same to Bush". I don't see anyone here claiming that they can prove Bush actually lied...I certainly didn't!
   What WE say is that whether Bush EVER actally lied or not, we consider his actions and choices poorly planned and indefensible.

We 'could' argue that, but you choose to argue by innuendo, just as you did about Theresa Heinz, saying that 'if a liberal had made that comment, you'd not be dismissing it' -- (I didn't do the search for you exact words, but that thread went on much like this one, with you claiming 'bias' and acting as if the mere assertion proved your point.)

It is not usually POSSIBLE to 'prove' a lie or claim about motivation in these situations, about either side...so it's best to stick to opinion and analysis that doesn't leave YOU open to easy pot-shots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:34 PM

Well gol danged, this ain't rocker surgery here... Let's examine the arguments...

The NRA: Hey, these rifles were allready available.

Bobert, et al: If so, then why are you all burning up so much energy fightin'?????

Purdy danged simple...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:26 PM

And if, after 9-11, he had ignored the intelligence he had, the British report, and the warning from Russia that Iraq, a country we were already at war with, was planning to launch terrorist attacks on us, THAT would have made him competent????


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

bb: here's one--

BUSH LIES...Trailers Of Mass Destruction..."You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons....They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two.* And we'll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong. We found them." (italics ours) --WP, May 31, 2003
more lies

*At the time of this statement, the U.S. position was that some analysts thought that the trailers could possibly have been used for menufacturing weapons. --Politex, 06.09.03

But all this is a distraction. Read what Jeri said again--

"Bush, on the other hand, is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, including both Iraquis and Americans. It was either a lie or incompetence, neither of which anyone wants from a President."

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:42 PM

Sledge,

The information I present does not agree with what Nerd wants to believe, thus he invokes the SRS rule, and discards all facts that do not support his viewpoint. Hard for me to make any point at all, when I post a reference to the US Code, and it is dismissed as a "looney gun site ".


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:34 PM

Or do you only require proof for claims you DON'T already agree with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:33 PM

So, when, before the invasion, did Bush LIE about Iraq? Show me some proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM

Nerd,

Try actually READING a post before you make comments. That "looney gun site " was the BATF ( actually a copy of USC Title 26 posted there).

If your comments are the best that liberals can argue, no wonder they are planning to lose the election. Try taking your tin-foil hat off, sometime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:23 PM

When the sonuvabitch shooting at you is getting off a few shots per second, that is an assault rifle. Don't really give a rat's ass what the dictionary calls it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:23 PM

bb- still quoting the same lameass website?

You said Kerry lies because he refers to "semi-automatic military assault weapons."

I pointed out the the BATF recognizes the same category.

You keep bringing in some random person's interpretation.

Once again:

Federal Government (BATF)
State of California
State of Wisconsin
Government of Canada

disagree with your "voice in the wilderness" wehb site. I'm going with them...which means

KERRY DIDN'T LIE

So, do me a favor, quote another looney gun site at me to prove that Kerry Lied. Put on your tinfoil hat while you're at it. You'll convince a lot of folks that way!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:22 PM

Is this more acceptable? Look at 5845b

"It was either a lie or incompetence, neither of which anyone wants from a President. "

My question still stands- I have read many claims that Bush lied, with far less evidence than I have presented here. But no one seems to question THOSE claims. This seems to me to be indicative of a bias on the part of a number of posters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:09 PM

bb's quote is from this site. If you back up to the main page, you find it's Guardian Angel's Gun Site, which contains a link to What I [the site owner] Believe, including some lovely thoughts such as:
"We should repeal ALL national gun laws."
"The death penalty is the only effect and fair way to deal with murders. The Commandment is "Thou shall not murder" not "Thou shall not kill."
Citizens should be allowed to have the option of carrying firearms to ward off potential murderers. Failing this, murderers should be killed as soon as possible after the trial. None of this appeal after appeal nonsense that only benefits lawyers."
"The IRS is a rogue agency that needs to be completely overhauled, if not abolished. Our tax system is VOLUNTARY, but you'd never know it, as the IRS has been allowed to terrorize us, confiscate property, or even put us in jail for not paying this VOLUNTARY tax!"
Oh well. She has a definition of "assault weapon" that Bruce likes.

It's all a red herring anyway.

Whether one or both told untruths knowingly or not, Kerry made the repeal of the 'assault weapons' ban sound a bit more dire. Other than that, there was absolutely no harm that came from what he said. Bush, on the other hand, is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, including both Iraquis and Americans. It was either a lie or incompetence, neither of which anyone wants from a President. Nit-picking about what is or isn't an 'assault weapon', is just a teensy bit desperate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does anyone care when Kerry lies?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:08 PM

Artbrooks-

Which I stated ( actually, gave the clicky) in my original pose.


Nerd:

"In addition, any weapon that shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot automatically, more than one shot at a time by a single trigger pull, is legally considered to be a machine gun."

Thus, a machine gun ( automatic weapon) that has been converted to semi-automatic operation, say by removing the mode lever, but which can be converted back is STILL considered a machine gun ( automatic weapon)


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