MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc

Subject: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:43 AM

This is one time where I really need mudcatters help and advice.

As some people know, I am in the middle of bringing out a CD for charity for Lincolnshire artists.

The question is, if the artists have given their permission to use their song on the CD, do we really need to go down the MCPS route and if so why.

Are there legal implications?

Who gets the money that is paid to MCPS?

Don't have much time left, but I have been informed from relaible sources that MCPS have no legal hold, if the artists has given permission, and therefore we do not need to go down the MCPS route.

Incidentally we are not trying to cut corners or break any laws.

Many thanks for any authoritive help given

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Sooz
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:49 AM

As I understand it, by registering with MCPS an artist has transferred their rights and in return they get payment for the use of their song. They cannot over-ride this.
The MCPS licence charge is based on the number of sales, the cost and the number of tracks by registered artists. It costs a small percentage of the total value and is not difficult to get.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: treewind
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:02 PM

Try emailing [e-mail] Gordon Potts, in the folk music department of MCPS. He's very knowledgeable and will tell you exactly what the implications are. You could try phoning too, if you can find the number.

I suspect you don't need to bother with them if you are sure that the artists recorded are not bothered about royalty payments, but what do I know?

Anahata

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: pavane
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:37 PM

You need to ensure that the songs, tunes and performance rights all belong to the artists concerned.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:11 PM

The cost is 8.5% of the Dealer Price (not the retail price, but the one you charge the record shop owner). This is usually £5 to £6. In your position, I suggest you fix that as £5.

You also have a promotion allowance (250 CDs out of the first 1,000 you make, or a proportionate amount for a smaller production quantity). These CDs don't attract the MCPS charge. Of course, should the taxman inquire, you gace them all to radio stations, folk club organisers etc etc - didn't you? ;-)

So, to recap: For a production quantity Q, assuming Q is no more than 1,000 CDs, the cost should be Q x 0.75 x £5 x 0.0085. This is roughly 32 pence for every CD you make. But that is the maximum, if all the songs on your CD are licenced by MCPS. In all likelihood, many (most?) will be "anon", or "trad", or the copyright owner has simply not registered with MCPS. In this case, MCPS will declare an inability to licence these and will charge only for the songs for which it manages the licencing. For the remainder, if they are not "trad" or "anon", the permission of the copyright holders to use the songs is enough - ideally you should have it in writing (an email will do).

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:25 PM

This is as I see it.

13 of the numbers have been written by artists who have agreed to the songs going on the CD for charity. We plan to send out a form for the artists to give permission and hoprfully forego any royalties etc. To my knowledge that permission has been given verbally.

The 3 remaining numbers are traditional.

If it turns out this way and all artists sign to give their permission, then the MCPS do not need to be involved as I see it.

We do not intend to sell these CD's to any retail outlets. It will all be done through folk clubs etc.

We will be producing CD's purely on demand as the CD company have allowed us to produce as little or as many as needed, which of course is a very nice gesture on their part.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 03:43 PM

Provided the 13 artist-written songs have not been registered with MCPS, you are OK. If they are registered with MCPS, you could still be liable (for the 15% of the royalties that MCPS charge for admin fee). Or rather, the CD manufacturer would be. But if he's making small quantities, that means he is not pressing from a glass master (i.e. he's copying to CD-R using a computer) and so operates outside the scheme. Theoretically, MCPS could "do" him, but we're talking peanuts now, something like 5p per CD, and it wouldn't be worth their while, even if someone "shopped" the manufacturer to MCPS

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 04:09 PM

George
That is very interesting. Now I know why I posted this thread.

I am going to follow through on Anahata's contact person and see what he has to say.

Please keep on posting everybody, this is all, very useful information and is probably very helpful for other people thinking of doing the same.

Aren't mudcatters brilliant :-)

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Sooz
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 04:21 PM

Villan, most of the artists are registered - its really in their best interests.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 07:53 PM

I think George has it right. I hope all Mudcatters notice that roughly 32pence per cd of the cost paid (generally about £12.00)to buy it goes to the person who's work it is.And that's divided by the number of tracks on the album. 12 tracks equals a royalty of 2.66 pence per song.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 01:31 AM

Anyway there is enough evidence from what you have all posted, that says we need to go down the MCPS route.

Thank you all for your help, it is most appreciated and it has certainly helped me to understand a bit more of what is going on in the music world. I hope it has also helped other people that might be attempting to do something similar.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: GUEST,RIchard Bridge with no cookie
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 04:21 PM

The PRS is a rightsowner. The MCPS is an agent of the rightsowner so the permission of the rightsowner suffices. But it will be cheaper and easier to have that discussion with the MCPS before, not after!

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM

This is what appears on the PRS website.

The PRS collects licence fees for the public performance and broadcast of musical works.

The MCPS collects and distributes 'mechanical' royalties generated from the recording of music onto many different formats. This income is distributed to their members - writers and publishers of music.

The MCPS-PRS Alliance manages common activities, services both societies and is jointly owned by them.

From the above, I would summise that because we are creating a CD then MCPS is the correct route to go.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: pavane
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:49 AM

We have already been told that the PRS pays everything to just the few highest paid performers and most people get nothing. Does the MCPS work in the same way?

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 04:08 AM

Thats what I understood from a specific source.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:09 AM

It's quite complex, but effectively it works out as Pavane says. Vin Garbutt, Roy Bailey, Andy Irvine, Johnny Collins, Graeme Knights have been singing a different song of mine now for over a year, in festivals and clubs, and I know for a fact that they do fill in the PRS forms stating the song and copyright owner. Yet I have seen not a penny from PRS. The reason is that PRS works by sampling (they don't examine the forms from all festivals and venues), so my songs have fallen through the net to date.

With MCPS it's a little more clear-cut. Whatever royalties are collected, are indeed paid to the copyright owner (after a 15% cut has been kept by MCPS for admin). So I just received this month my first ever royalties, for Cloudstreet's recording of "The Mill". We're not talking big money, as Harvey says - I could only buy a very small round with my earnings, and no shorts!

I'll frame it anyway though...

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:07 AM

George - I hope You are filling in PRS forms when YOU perform your own songs. Not every club and festival bothers with the returns but when they do you should see a worthwhile return.

Just for arrangement royalties of trad songs, Mary got more than her PRS membership fee back after two Sidmouth returns. You have to be a dedicated form filler!

Anahata

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:46 AM

Thanks, Anahata. I'm going to the wrong festivals so far ;-), they're not in the sample. But I do fill the forms, when I get the chance. I am also thinking of filling in the new form where the performer names 10 venues he/she has been performing regularly over the last 12 months.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 09:38 AM

The PRS has a list of the venues around the country that they use for their royalty calculations. If your songs come up at least twice(in twelve months)in the returns from these venues you will be paid. Of course you have to be registered with them first.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM

I am registered. But do you know the list of venues? I believe Cropredy and Sidmouth are on it - which other ones?

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:18 PM

I have just been told by MCPS, that if you sell no more than 500 CD's and it is not commercial, then there is a very simple form to fill in that costs £70.50 (oN e off) and the artist names do not have to be mentioned. I have told them the circumstances in full.
What should I make of that.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:30 PM

I know they have such schemes for non-commercial CDs, but I have not studied them. But if MCPS say that, it is legit - go ahead.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 06:26 AM

The artist, or writer of the song, cannot give permission if the song is published as the publisher's permission is required. If the song has been recorded before then no permission is required to record it. The MCPS pay all monies to the publisher who then pays the composer/author a share depending on a pre arranged agreement, usually 50%. PRS will also pay the publisher for broadcast or concert use of the work in question and the composer/author will only get his/her share directly if he/she is a member of the PRS.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:52 AM

I have all the details.

its called Limited Availability Product Licence (LAPL).

It says the following.

MCPS has recently intoduced a licensing scheme, which allows easy access to it's members' repertoire, within certain types of low exploitation productions without the need for obtaining permission from each individual copyrigt owner.

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Oaklet
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:10 PM

Was he from Hull, Les? :)

Subject: RE: MCPS Mechanical Copyright Protection Soc
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

Had to be cause it smells a bit fishy :-)