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Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?

The Shambles 18 Sep 04 - 05:48 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 18 Sep 04 - 05:52 AM
The Shambles 18 Sep 04 - 06:01 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 18 Sep 04 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Jon 18 Sep 04 - 06:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Sep 04 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 18 Sep 04 - 06:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Sep 04 - 06:57 AM
nutty 18 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM
Amos 18 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM
Clinton Hammond 18 Sep 04 - 12:16 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 18 Sep 04 - 12:26 PM
Clinton Hammond 18 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM
The Shambles 18 Sep 04 - 07:36 PM
Joe Offer 18 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Jon 18 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM
The Shambles 18 Sep 04 - 08:07 PM
Joe Offer 18 Sep 04 - 08:11 PM
The Shambles 18 Sep 04 - 08:31 PM
Peace 18 Sep 04 - 08:35 PM
The Shambles 18 Sep 04 - 08:45 PM
The Shambles 18 Sep 04 - 09:08 PM
Joe Offer 18 Sep 04 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 19 Sep 04 - 05:28 AM
The Shambles 19 Sep 04 - 06:12 AM
catspaw49 19 Sep 04 - 06:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Sep 04 - 06:37 AM
catspaw49 19 Sep 04 - 06:47 AM
The Shambles 19 Sep 04 - 06:52 AM
catspaw49 19 Sep 04 - 09:22 AM
Jeri 19 Sep 04 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,Jon 19 Sep 04 - 10:51 AM
catspaw49 19 Sep 04 - 10:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM
Bill D 19 Sep 04 - 11:25 AM
The Shambles 19 Sep 04 - 01:59 PM
wysiwyg 19 Sep 04 - 02:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Sep 04 - 02:08 PM
GUEST 19 Sep 04 - 02:17 PM
The Shambles 19 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 04 - 02:46 PM
The Shambles 19 Sep 04 - 02:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Sep 04 - 02:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Sep 04 - 02:55 PM
GUEST 19 Sep 04 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Martian Gibbon 19 Sep 04 - 03:03 PM
wysiwyg 19 Sep 04 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Don Filth 19 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM
Little Hawk 19 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Sep 04 - 09:49 PM
Big Mick 19 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Sep 04 - 01:17 AM
Wolfgang 20 Sep 04 - 03:12 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Sep 04 - 03:32 AM
Sttaw Legend 20 Sep 04 - 03:38 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Sep 04 - 03:41 AM
Paco Rabanne 20 Sep 04 - 04:17 AM
Sttaw Legend 20 Sep 04 - 04:25 AM
Sttaw Legend 20 Sep 04 - 04:27 AM
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Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Sep 04 - 04:32 AM
Sttaw Legend 20 Sep 04 - 04:53 AM
The Shambles 20 Sep 04 - 07:12 AM
greg stephens 20 Sep 04 - 07:25 AM
The Shambles 20 Sep 04 - 07:41 AM
Wolfgang 20 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM
The Shambles 20 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM
Little Hawk 20 Sep 04 - 04:54 PM
wysiwyg 20 Sep 04 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 20 Sep 04 - 05:29 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Sep 04 - 10:13 PM
The Shambles 21 Sep 04 - 02:14 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 21 Sep 04 - 03:38 AM
The Shambles 21 Sep 04 - 05:28 AM
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Micca 21 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM
The Shambles 21 Sep 04 - 07:49 PM
The Shambles 09 Feb 05 - 03:05 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 09 Feb 05 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Jon 09 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM
wysiwyg 09 Feb 05 - 09:29 PM
Bill D 09 Feb 05 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 10 Feb 05 - 05:18 AM
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wysiwyg 10 Feb 05 - 09:08 AM
JennyO 10 Feb 05 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 10 Feb 05 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,Jon 10 Feb 05 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Jon 10 Feb 05 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Jon 10 Feb 05 - 10:01 AM
wysiwyg 10 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM
The Shambles 10 Feb 05 - 01:44 PM
Big Mick 10 Feb 05 - 02:12 PM
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Bill D 10 Feb 05 - 10:46 PM
Davetnova 11 Feb 05 - 07:24 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Feb 05 - 07:59 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Feb 05 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 Feb 05 - 08:12 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Feb 05 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 12 Feb 05 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Jon 12 Feb 05 - 06:44 AM
Wolfgang 12 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM
The Shambles 13 Feb 05 - 03:11 AM
GUEST, Jeri 13 Feb 05 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 13 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM
Jeri 13 Feb 05 - 05:33 PM
Bill D 13 Feb 05 - 08:02 PM
The Shambles 15 Feb 05 - 03:34 AM
GUEST,Jon 15 Feb 05 - 07:44 AM
The Shambles 15 Feb 05 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Jon 15 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM
Jeri 15 Feb 05 - 12:28 PM
The Shambles 15 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Feb 05 - 01:25 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 05 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Feb 05 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,MMario 15 Feb 05 - 03:14 PM
Jeri 15 Feb 05 - 03:54 PM
The Shambles 15 Feb 05 - 06:16 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 16 Feb 05 - 02:15 AM
GUEST 16 Feb 05 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 05 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Jeri 16 Feb 05 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 16 Feb 05 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 16 Feb 05 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 05 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 16 Feb 05 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,Jeri 16 Feb 05 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,~S~ 16 Feb 05 - 12:35 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 16 Feb 05 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 16 Feb 05 - 02:31 PM
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Bill D 16 Feb 05 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,Jon 16 Feb 05 - 04:48 PM
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Jeri 16 Feb 05 - 06:19 PM
Jeri 16 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM
Big Mick 16 Feb 05 - 08:17 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 05 - 08:31 PM
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harpgirl 17 Feb 05 - 12:19 AM
The Shambles 17 Feb 05 - 03:13 AM
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GUEST,The Shambles 18 Feb 05 - 06:03 AM
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Subject: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 05:48 AM

Just because a thread is closed it doesn't mean it can't be opened.
MacGrath of Harlow stated this on the main forum and in the following HELP forum thread – I asked if it was possible to re-open one.

Why was my thread closed twice?

Is it possible and if it is - how does one set about getting a perfectly non-offensive thread re-opened - like the one in question here, that perhaps should never have been closed in the first place?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 05:52 AM

Yes, I've had a few threads opened, just PM Joe stating which thread you would like opened.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 06:01 AM

What is the procedure if one is not a member and one cannot send a personal message and why would one receive a different answer in a PM to the same question asked on the HELP forum?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 06:05 AM

Dunno, ask Joe.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 06:30 AM

John has confirmed it here but as a general principle anywhere, it is most likely possible. A simple way, and the way I use is just to have a status flag together with the other info for the thread. If the status is marked "open", a text box allowing a user to post is given. If closed, no box appears and a message is displayed. Like much of this suff, it is quite trivial.

Although it hasn't been really used, I extend my use of flags for status for something similar to a permathread here. Every thread has an owner, normally 0 meaning general thread but when I change that for a memberID, that member becomes the owner and has the rights to edit it for the purpose of maintaing a reference. Again, it's a no-brainer to apply.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 06:47 AM

"Can"

"May"

"Will"

Three different concepts.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 06:50 AM

LOL Foolstroupe. You are quite right of course.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 06:57 AM

Why would anyone who didn't want to be a member want to send a PM anyway? No, please don't answer, that's a rhetorical question.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: nutty
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM

Shambles ... I would be happy to support you in getting the "Goodbye" thread reopened if it meant you were actually going to go.

If you intend staying then please stop clogging this forum with totally useless threads.

You are so aptly named and are starting to get on my nerves and I am sure I am not alone.

You are acting like an unwelcome guest at a party where the hosts are trying to be polite.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM

Roger,

If you take responsibility for your individual communications with Joe, it will create an effect. If you do not, continuing to pump out sulfurous spiels of rococo blame and shame, then that too will create an effect. You will lives with the results of your choices. Frankly, you do not seem happy, in spite of the Herculean efforts you have made. Perhaps a reassessment is in order of how to effectively relate to others in this community.

A


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:16 PM

I'm with Nutty...

Shambles... get a life


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:26 PM

or a hamster.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM

I wouldn't wish that on the hamster


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 07:36 PM

Please leave the bearer of the message alone. If you don't like the message then please ignore it.

Perhaps a reassessment is in order of how to effectively relate to others in this community.

Perhaps a reassessment is in order of what this strange (and small) community you refer to is and how it treats those whose views may differ?

This is a discussion forum - we post our views - these views differ - you can't control the views of others - live with it.

Lets get it straight: A perfectly acceptable thread is closed by a volunteer and folk are warned publicly that it is closed - and that any further contributions to it will be deleted. Not too sure why or what possible damage this thread can do. Sometime later and for less than positive reasons it IS refreshed but some additional posts are added. It is closed again and I why on the HELP forum and if it can be re-opened.

Now I have to send a Personal Message to a fellow member - who I really have no desire contact at all - to ask if the thread can be re-opened?

Perhaps someone would care to discuss address why this thread in particular (and others)had to be closed at all?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM

Of course, threads can be reopened. There are some old threads that we closed for a number of noncontroversial reasons, usually because the topic is no longer current, or because there were a number of threads open on the subject, and that made things confusing. If there's a good reason in that sort of situation, we'll generally be glad to reopen a thread. Only Max, Jeff, and Joe have the authority to reopen a thread, so I suggest that you contact one of them directly.

Other threads were closed because they were personal attacks or because they became an all-out brawl. It's not really in the best interest of Mudcat for us to re-open old wounds. Besides, it's easy enough for people to start a new thread and link to the closed one. As for deleted threads, it is very unlikely that we would wish to undelete them. We generally think long and hard before we make a decision to delete or close a thread - it's not a decision we make lightly, and it's not a decision that we're likely to reverse.

You can appeal a thread-closing or deletion decision to Max, if you like. The best way to contact him is by e-mail. It is unlikely that anyone would consider a thread reopening request that is posted in the Forum.

Joe Offer, joe@mudcat.org

(max is max@mudcat.org jeff is jeff@mudcat.org)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM

Perhaps Shambles, you will demonstrate the ability to state your objections in a matter of one or two sentances. Others may have a better clue as to what you rabbit on about given that simple help..

A list of long winded posts and quotes does not help to enable your point to be read. I found the same with the PEL threads here and those were something I cared about. Much of my life involves playing in sessions but a load of waffle/ twaffle does not do me any good.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:07 PM

We seem to have been thrown - down in the BS?

Rather than bother Max - it would be a nice friendly gesture if you could just re-open it please?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:11 PM

OK, so I heard your request, Shambles.
Request denied.
Next step in the appeal process is to e-mail Max, max@mudcat.org.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:31 PM

It is unlikely that anyone would consider a thread reopening request that is posted in the Forum.

Is this not a bit of a double standard? As there appears to be no end of forum requests for judgement and for editing action to be imposed upon the contributions of other posters. The entire HELP forum is full of such requests and I have never seen any suggestion there that these requests are unlikely to be granted - volunteers appear to be falling over themselves in order to grant these requests.

These request are not discouraged even now but are now requested to be made secretly.

All that I am asking is for a thread to be opened that I started and that many people people were kind enough to say nice things about me in. It would show respect to those posters and make a pleasant change to most of the current threads which seem to be saying not very nice things about me - many of these do not seem to be closed.......


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:35 PM

Hell is the impossibility of reason.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:45 PM

The latest from the HELP forum.

Subject: RE: Please delete thread (s)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18-Sep-04 - 07:20 PM

Public discussions of thread deletions are problematic, so we'd ask that you contact us privately if you have objections to a thread. We don't encourage thread deletion requests, and we deny many (maybe most) requests for deletion. However, we're certainly open to pruivate discussion. Public discussion of objectionable things only serves to call attention to them.
The Martin Gibson thread in question was deleted.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:08 PM

Personal attack thead - please delete

The above link is to just one HELP forum thread where these requests were then encouraged. There is some satisfaction that these requests are seemingly not now to be encouraged to be made publicly on the forum.

Not too sure if encouraging them to be made in secret is any better - but it IS a change and perhaps it is the start of a few more changes?

Public discussion of objectionable things only serves to call attention to them.

This IS a public discussion forum and calling attention to things for discussion is surely one of its main purposes? Whether the things you may be bringing attention to are considered 'objectionable' is a matter of opinion - the expression of which - is also what a public discussion forum is for...........But perhaps I have gotten this wrong?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:20 PM

Sorry, Shambles. I don't want to do battle with you. I will do my job, and do my very best to ignore your badgering. I will provide information when requested, but I see no reason to defend my decisions to anybody but Max. If you wish to question my decision, talk to Max.

As for me, I need a little help with the Russian on the Proshchai thread. Can anybody help? I'm here for music, not for battle.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 05:28 AM

"Please leave the bearer of the message alone. If you don't like the message then please ignore it."

Please leave the Joe(clones) do their job alone. If you don't like what they do then please ignore it.

Shambles, you explain twice daily that we should not interfere with something about which we have no control, when will you listen to your own advice?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:12 AM

This is what Wesley S came up with. I don't think that it has appeared in the FAQ yet......?

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others

We have control over many things - starting with our own actions.

The starting point here is to accept that we do not have any control over the posting of others. That is what I accept and what I think is wise to first accept. It is not wise to stand in front of a stampeding herd of elephants whilst under the illusion that you have any control over them.

However, this simple fact is not accepted by many members who seem to think that not only that they do have some control over the postings of others but that they have every right to judge and impose editing action on everyone else and shape our forum by this.

Whilst these people believe and are supported in this stupid illusion and encourage everyone else to be just as judgemental - and to exert control only for the greater good of the cause - it is rather difficult for me (or any other poster) to ignore.....For these well-intentioned folk keep closing and deleting entire threads - because they can't take the time just to edit the offending posts.

I have no idea why this thread was closed the first time and I have no idea why it was closed a second time or what possible harm it could or can do to anyone if it were to be re-opened, as I politely request.

Wolfgang instead of just keep posting to criticise me you could just control yourself and ignore all of my postings? - Or you could actually address the issue and tell me what harm this thread could do - if it were to be re-opened?

Is it just the fear that the act of re-opening it may possibly be seen to challenge the authority of the original decision? And of those who feel they must be seen to make the attempt to continue control the postings of others for the sake only of exerting that control - whatever the long-term effect of all this judgement and imposition may be.....?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:31 AM

,Waffle-Twaffle

I love that one Jon!!!!!!!!!!! It has such a wonderfully British sound about it. Is there some department of state that specializes in this? Like "spin doctors" who put whjatever face on a subject that's needed or supply voluminous rhetoric loaded heavily in double talk. Shambles could be the Minister Waffle-Twaffle!

Oh, I dunno'..........Maybe the boy has a point. I have no idea what it might be but it seems he keeps himself together becasue he has a cause. Maybe I need a cause too.................hmmmm.....okay........

JOE OFFER: I would like to formally petition that you (or Max or Jeff) close every thread where The Shambles has showered us in Waffle-Twaffle regarding the closing of threads. Those not closed will be subject to additional waffle-twaffle by myself and others and will also be permitted to carry my personal tag line, "Have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up."

Sincerely Yours in Better Waffle-Twaffle,

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:37 AM

Is there a limit on the number of times you are going to post that, Shables? Without, it wold seem, even for a moment recognising that, as Wolfgang just pointed out, it applies to yourself.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:47 AM

Apparently not Mac!!! Shambles seems to prefer the rhetorical equivalent of sticking a lit firecracker up his ass several times a day and complaining that it is not helping his 'roids!

Also, I must say that the last paragraph in that particular missive......

"Is it just the fear that the act of re-opening it may possibly be seen to challenge the authority of the original decision? And of those who feel they must be seen to make the attempt to continue control the postings of others for the sake only of exerting that control - whatever the long-term effect of all this judgement and imposition may be.....?"

......is complete gibberish and the epitome of the Waffle-Twaffling art. Truly masterful Shambles!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:52 AM

Fair enough and thanks friends for putting this thread back to the top again.

If whilst going to all the trouble to do this and simply judge my worth - you could you please at least address the issue? What harm would re-opening this thread do?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:22 AM

Always happy to bring this back to the top for you as many of us look forward to your super human ability to plumb new depths of waffle-twaffling. Sadly though, no more of it is needed here. The problem in answering your question is that it isn't the question at all. Once upon a time it perhaps was the question but through all the ramblings and after slaughtering several horses unmercifully beaten into gelatinous masses, there is no question left. You are now simply engaged with Joe in a No-Win power struggle and the rest of us are getting either bored to tears or a lot of laughs at your expense.

As to what your original question may have been......"What is wrong with re-opening the thread?".......Hell, I don't know. But then again, I'm not the one who has to answer you as I can't re-open the thread. At some point in the distant past, Joe gave an answer to that but I neither recall what it was nor do I have the passion and inclination you posess in such ponderous quantities to go back and find it. There have been a bezillion postings on this shit and I ain't bustin' my chops to find Joe's original answer.

It wouldn't matter a rat's ass anyway as you didn't like his answer then and I doubt if you would now. In any case, the real issue has become this: You say A, Joe says B. You say only Max can say B. Joe agrees with you about talking to Max and tells you to talk to Max. In the simplest of terms, that's it in a nutshell. My question is simple as well. If Max responds by saying B, will you drop this?

It should be wholly obvious to you that almost no one cares about this besides you. If there are a few that do, I would hope that they would have the sense to accept any answer Max might give as being definitive. For my part, should Max say A or B or "Fuck you Spaw," I will accept the answer.

So write to Max. Let us know how it comes out. No more waffle-twaffle is needed here.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:21 AM

You asked the question in the Help forum and got an answer you didn't like. You then asked the same question here in the main forum as if it had never been asked. I ask myself why you would do such a thing.

You already received an answer from Joe, so you're not asking him. In fact, since he IS the authority, you're not even really asking. You're disingenuously trying to drum up support in your personal anti-Joe campaign, which includes complaining about every little thing you see him or any other admin type doing - and I mean LITTLE. It seems more like what a disgruntled control-freak wannabe-authority figure on a mission to 'get' anyone who has any authority does.

You've chosen some particularly insignificant molehills to turn into mountains, you've picked an adversary that doesn't want to fight, you've at least implied that people here are poor stupid sheep who are too afraid to speak for themselves and need some white knight to come to their rescue. In short, it's time to think about your real reasons for doing all this Joe-stalking stuff. It looks like nothing more than a rather one-sided pissing contest to me, Maybe you need the attention, but I can't even say for sure that's what I think your motive is because you've never ONCE stated what you want. In any case, what's actually happening is that you're alienating more and more fellow posters with each nit picked. People aren't as stupid as you'd like to believe.

On the other hand, perhaps you should just keep going. I'll admit I enjoy watching the occasional train wreck, and this 'descent into madness' thing is a whole lot more entertaining than most of the political threads. You might be a fairly decent guy in real life, but that isn't the message you're getting accross here, and it's you who've made 'the messenger' the issue. Clue: What IS 'the message'?

[aside to Spaw: I just thought of a new word to describe one of the Layabouts at Large community outreach activities: 'inactivism'.]


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:51 AM

I don't know spaw. Perhaps all I can comment on with relation to the UK (and I don't claim to be good at it myself) is the skill of concise writing seems sadly lacking. It's one that has got to me in education later in life. You get maybe an assignemt to contian 1000 words. Some people can say more in 500 than others can in maybe 20,000.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:58 AM

I like that one Jeri!!!

And Jon......The skill seems to be lacking here in the US as well. Frankly though, the general ability to write anything seems to have gone the way of the woolly mammoth in this country. The internet isn't helping.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM

It helps and it harms at the same time. It provides the opportunity to write concisely and well, and the temptation to drone on for ever. We get both sorts here, sometimes from the same people.

It's always been the case that it takes far more time and effort to write a good short piece than a mediocre long piece. "Sorry this is so long - I didn't have time to write it shorter" is a time-honoured writers' excuse.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 11:25 AM

In a former life, I had two step-kids...boys about 13-14 at the time, who considered themselves 'free spitits'....one day they decided they wanted to go downtown and 'swim in the new fountain at the civic center'...I said "no".....they whined and pleaded and started asking "why?". I tried to give reasoned answers, but soon, after about the 10th "why?", I said something like "Because 3 legged elephants can't dance on stairways"
      ...they said "huh?. what's that got to do with it?"....I said "nothing, but you are not interested in reason, or my authority, or ANY answer except the one you want, so what difference does it make whether I give the right answer or a totally silly one...the answer is still "no! I GET to decide, and the answer is NO!"

but when "tilting at windmills" is someone's major hobby, I guess ALL answers just spur them on to greater efforts.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 01:59 PM

The message is clearly coming through that the authority is Max and not our volunteers. If Max is to have the final say in re-opening threads - perhaps it would be far better for him to also have the final say in closing and deleting entire threads?

Then the thread in question would not have been closed even once, let alone twice, for there were never any grounds to do so.

And Jon......The skill seems to be lacking here in the US as well. Frankly though, the general ability to write anything seems to have gone the way of the woolly mammoth in this country. The internet isn't helping.

This is the valued opinion of one whose posts here (or rather personal attacks) seem unable to resist scatological references and display all the symptoms of Tourettes in their inabilty to leave out the F word. And the pedants who consider that correcting the spelling, grammar and writing style etc of other posters and who were discouraged from doing this here for so long - would appear to have taken over completly.

But please don't waste your time just posting to blindly defend something by calling me names, questioning my parentage, sanity or motives. It has had no effect on me for many years except to make you look silly to the majority of posters who have no idea why you are all jumping up and down. It only brings the thread right back up. This is simply my view - agree, disagree or ignore it.

Perhaps if you do post again - you could address why the thread in question is so bad it needed to be closed twice and why simply re-opening it, as I request, would really be so terrible?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:01 PM

The message is clearly coming through that the authority is Max and not our volunteers. If Max is to have the final say in re-opening threads - perhaps it would be far better for him to also have the final say in closing and deleting entire threads?

Max DID have the final say. He delegated it to Joe.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:08 PM

I wrote this on a thread on the Help forum, but then thought I'd bring it over. A song that goes round in a circle amd gets nowhere...

I said it once and I said it twice,
And then I said it once again.
And then in case you hadn't heard,
I said it twice times over.
But don't do thinking that I'm done,
I'm very far from finished,
From dawn to setting of the sun,
My stamina's undimished.

I said it once and I said it twice,
And then I said it once again.
And then in case you hadn't heard,
I said it twice times over.
And though you think you've heard it all,
And try to change the topic,
I still persist to vent my gall -
There's no way you can stop it.

I said it once and I said it twice,
And then I said it once again.
And then in case you hadn't heard,
I said it twice times over.
And little fleas have little fleas
Upon their backs to bite em,
And smaller fleas have smaller fleas,
And so ad infinitum.

I said it once and I said it twice,
And then I said it once again.
And then in case you hadn't heard,
I said it twice times over.
But don't do thinking that I'm done,
I'm very far from finished,
From dawn to setting of the sun,
My stamina's undimished...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:17 PM

... repeat, ad nauseum...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM

The Driving Seat

Don't care where we're going
Or if we get there alive
Don't care who comes with me
Just as long as I can drive

Don't mind how cold it gets
And I can stand the heat
Don't care what falls off the car
For I'm in the diving seat

It's my ass in the driving seat –and it's my hand on the wheel
It's my foot on the pedal - control – is what I feel


Up to me to choose the route
And if then, I should stray
Don't matter how bad the road
We'll go down it any way

If I'm driving round in circles
Going fast or slow
Or disappearing up my own ass
That's where I want to go

It's my ass in the driving seat –and it's my hand on the wheel
It's my foot on the pedal - control – is what I feel


What counts is, I'm in control
Come along for the ride
Don't suggest that I slow down
That's up to me to decide

This car that I am driving
Well it's not mine, you say
You keep the registration
Won't give my seat away

It's my ass in the driving seat –and it's my hand on the wheel
It's my foot on the pedal - control – is what I feel


I give you fair warning
Don't try to take the keys
For as we head toward the desert
Remember Thelma and Louise

For I know what you are up to
Just get off my case
Rather crash into the canyon
Than let you take my place

It's my ass in the driving seat –and it's my hand on the wheel
It's my foot on the pedal - control – is what I feel


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:46 PM

"Don't care what falls off the car
For I'm in the diving seat"


A tribute to Senator Kennedy ?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:51 PM

Keven said: - and posted it here for at least the third time....

Is there a limit on the number of times you are going to post that, Shables? Without, it wold seem, even for a moment recognising that, as Wolfgang just pointed out, it applies to yourself.

Susan said:
Max DID have the final say. He delegated it to Joe.

Joe Offer says:
You can appeal a thread-closing or deletion decision to Max, if you like. The best way to contact him is by e-mail. It is unlikely that anyone would consider a thread reopening request that is posted in the Forum.

Joe Offer,


Joe seems to have delegated it right back.........


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:54 PM

There were ten in the bed,
and the little one said, roll over, roll over.
So they all rolled over, and one fell out.

There were ten in the bed,
and the little one said, roll over, roll over
So they all rolled over, and one fell out...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:55 PM

There were ten in the bed,
and the little one said, roll over, roll over.
So they all rolled over, and one fell out.

There were nine in the bed,
and the little one said, roll over, roll over
So they all rolled over, and one fell out...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 03:01 PM

The wheels on the bus go round and round.....


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 03:03 PM

round and round, round and round, the.....


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 03:04 PM

No, he's telling you one can always appeal a decision made by him to the one who delegated it to him.    In Joe's case, as far as Mudcat is concerned, that would be Max.

In the US, this would be standard, chain-of-command procedure. If one doesn't like what someone can do for one, one asks for their supervisor. I dunno how it is in the UK on that score-- but since the people involved are in the US, it would be logical to expect it to work like this.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Don Filth
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM

Guest, Martian Gibbon, does your pink behind glow in the dark?

I will explain to you how that happens in 500 words or more.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM

Can someone here provide me with a good, concise definition of folk music?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:49 PM

Mr Shambles-Shut up and go away.

john


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM

Why do you feed this creature?? I just read the whole thing and find 99% of it just fodder for this poor guy to continue to feel relevant with his waffle twaffle approach. I am going to suggest that all of us shun this and all of his posts, with two exceptions. I would suggest that only Sir john9 and Catspaw answer him from here on out. Let's give it try, eh? This ought to be fun.

Pat, I won't charge any of your responses here against you for purposes of calculating your I.R. (inactivism rate) for profit sharing purposes at dear old LFPS.

"inactivism" .......... LOL. Shit, I like that Jeri.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:17 AM

Ok, I'll answer him.
Shambles, your'e complaints with Mudcat seem to be about cencorship, as has been explained to you countless times, in many threads both here and in the Help Forum, the only threads that get deleted or closed are troublesome ones, ie arguments that get out of hand, personal attacks and long off topic cut and paste jobs.

Nobody else here seems to have a problem with this policy, recently a policy was introduced wherby old BS threads that had run there course were closed [I think the age limit for automatic closing was set at 1 year], though if a subject becomes current again ie, the BS thread subject is in the news or wahtever, any member can ask that the thread in question be re-opened.

Multiple threads on the same subject may be combined, these "rules" are for the benefit of Mudcat as a whole.

Imagine if you will, that Mudcat is a shop with an out of town owner, Joe is the manager and has been given the owners authority to run it as he sees fit, you have no right to demand that the shop owner intervenes in any disputes, the managers word is final.

Your current complaint seems to be that your "Goodbye" thread is closed, well as your'e not leaving/left and came back, there seems little point it been open.

However, if you are leaving, simply start a new thread to say your goodbyes in.


Though if you carry on moaning and complaining like this, I doubt many people would miss you.




jOhn


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:12 AM

we do not have any control over the posting of others. That is what I accept and what I think is wise to first accept (Shambles)

Wolfgang... you could just control yourself and ignore all of my postings.... - Or you could actually address the issue(Shambles, a few lines later in the same post)

Why do you try to control others' posts and tell them what they should post or read, Shambles? Just for a change you could try to live up to the standards you post.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:32 AM

You just said that!
Your'e getting like him!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:38 AM

Good morning jOhn


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:41 AM

morning Straw Legend!
Are you the Guitar Bloke, or are you the Fiddling Bloke?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:17 AM

Morning chaps. He is the short fiddle bloke jOhn, he is also the balder of the two.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:25 AM

AND exceedingly handsome - it's a tough job but someone had to do it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:27 AM

AND exceedingly handsome - it's a tough job but someone had to do it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:28 AM

AND exceedingly handsome - it's a tough job but someone had to do it.

I've said it three times cos I thought that was the rule on this thread.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:32 AM

you have to qoute some obscure stuff that Joe [or Max] said 2 years ago and have a good old moan about censorship as well.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:53 AM

I don't know Censor, and I certainly wasn't aware he had a ship.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 07:12 AM

One of our (known) volunteers posted to this thread to bring it to the top and sets the example to follow by saying:

Why do you feed this creature?? I just read the whole thing and find 99% of it just fodder for this poor guy to continue to feel relevant with his waffle twaffle approach. I am going to suggest that all of us shun this and all of his posts, with two exceptions. I would suggest that only Sir john9 and Catspaw answer him from here on out. Let's give it try, eh? This ought to be fun.

Thanks to those who do post and make at least some attempt to address the issue and the view that I am entitled to express. And to those who simply already just decide to ignore the thread.

Yes I am a very bad person who has not made any positive contribution to our dicussion forum in over 5 years - but despite the abuse posted - shouting me down will not change anything, except to bring the thread back up (until this one is closed too). - I still await any convincing opinion as to why the thread I am asking to be re-opened was felt necessary to close in the first place and what harm or damage could possibly do to anyone if it were re-opened?

This issue is considered by many of my fellow posters here (who still post and repeat themselves) to be an important matter. Or not as important as many of the BS titles like on aimpit hair or 3000 posts about nothing at all. If a thread is important enough to post to and bring back to the top - it is surely worth addressing the issue when you do? If it is not important - just ignore it.........


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 07:25 AM

Goes on a bit, that Shambles, doesn't he?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 07:41 AM

Fair enough and thanks for setting the thread back to the top.

Anyone else wishing to post just to judge my worth? Please go ahead if you really must but some contribution to the discussion would be perhaps a little more positive......


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM

Your worth, Shambles? Never. Never should the worth of a person be judged from their behaviour and argumentation in one particular situation.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM

Fair enough.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:54 PM

Well said, Wolfgang.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:55 PM

Anyone else wishing to post just to judge my worth?

Is that what this is really about?

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:29 PM

Shambles? I peg your worth somewheres between an overripe banana that's just been run over by a truck and a Sicilian shoeshine. That's a guess, based on what I've read so far. I'd have to meet you personally to assess it any closer than that. I am willin' to do that as soon as I get some time off here, and if you will pay the travel expenses (from Chicago and back) and provide free drinks for the duration. Whisky, rum, or banana dacquiris preferred.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:13 PM

"Can"

"May"

"Will"

Three different concepts.


It seems the answer to the correct question is "Won't"


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 02:14 AM

Just for the record: This is why it was closed for the first time in 1999........

Subject: This thread is closed. Thanks.
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 24 Jul 99 - 02:47 PM

I dunno. I guess I'd say that Art is the quintessential Mudcatter, the one we all should emulate.

That being said, I would also like to say that many of us are licking our wounds from a fairly serious flame war - more serious because we thought that the 'Cat was immune from such unpleasantry. Well, I guess we weren't. I know we all have a lot more to say on this subject, but maybe it's better if we just don't say it. Please don't post any more messages to this or any of the other threads that were part of this whole mess. Try to discuss things privately if you must. If there is a compelling need to analyze all this in public, please wait a few days until the air clears, and then start a new thread. I think it's better to just let the matter die.
Now, Art, will you go out into the other threads and tell us some jokes and stories? We've had a nice, toasty campfire going for 24 yours already.

This thread is closed. Any messages posted to it after this will be deleted.

-Joe Offer-

And this is how it was re-opened in 2004

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Sir jOhn from Hull - PM
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:43 AM

bye bye.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 03:38 AM

Shambles-are you leaving or not?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 05:28 AM

Welcome home Shambles


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 05:50 AM

Go Away Shambles


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Micca
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM

Can The closed thread be reopened?B
Tune CAN THE CIRCLE BE UNBROKEN?

There are people in the Forum
Who are out to make us p***ed
Who should mix themselves a jorum
And bog off and not be missed

Chorus
Can the closed threads be re-opened?
By and by, lord bye and bye
Can its opening be appealed, Lord?
To the great Max in the sky?


So Appeal to Max, please Shambles
And Finally maybe see
That you may appeal to Max mate
But you don't appeal to Me

So appeal it to Max Spiegel
Who has nominated Joe
To be Policeman on the Mudcat
What don't you understand of "NO"


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 07:49 PM

We're alright Jack, so don't bother us
It may affect us too, if you go kicking up a fuss
I can see you are wounded
Not in the best of health
But we all agree, you must have brought it on yourself


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 03:05 AM

Perhaps if the permission of all the posters needed to be given first - before entire threads containing their invited contributions were judged and deleted or closed by unknown volunteers - the argument (judgement and name-calling) about whether these threads could or should be re-opened and who should be asked - would not be necesssary?

The argument is sometimes given that as divoice is so messy (but easy)- that getting married in the first place should be made more difficult.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 03:09 PM

Don't compromise, Shambles. Why only all posters? Everybody who has read that thread, of course.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

The most curious thing in all this is not that Wolfgang, it is why Shambles persists in picking on the lower levels of authority.

I can not convince myself whether he hasn't the bollocks to aim his blows higher when satisfaction at a lower level has not worked or whether he believes (sorta) "there ain't no rules" bit he quotes and believes that volunteers somehow run riot over the forum and Max has no control over them.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 09:29 PM

Joe and the Clones buried Max under a basement in West Chester years ago. That Schemm Team thing is a red herring. You'd have to live in PA to know any of this..... Now that I've blabbed they'll kill me, too..... But not before I tell you WHY they did it...... psssspssspss ssspspsss.....

For a price.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 11:32 PM

"3 legged elephants can't dance on stairways"



(see WAY above)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:18 AM

Why only all posters? Everybody who has read that thread, of course.

That is a useful suggestion - I am glad we two are in agreement. For surely and at least, those who have been invited to contribute to a thread should really be asked before their (non-offending) contribution is deleted along with the entire thread or the entire thread closed?

Or if our volunteers do not want to be bothered with first obtaining all this advanced permission - perhaps our volunteers could explain to us - (if such imposed action is ever judged by them to be required) - why it is not possible to confine this to the offending post(s) only and and editorial comment left in its place to explain why the imposed action was taken?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

"Or if our volunteers do not want to be bothered with first obtaining all this advanced permission"

Here we go again... Shambles picking on the volunteers. I reckon he is the type of coward who would break a young barmaid into tears if he didn't like the price set by management for a pint of beer.

Shambles volunteers do what they are asked to do. A policy change such as that could not possibly be made at that level.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:08 AM

Logically, then.... From now on if one logs onto Mudcat for a peek, one will be tracked down and harassed to vote on thread closures and deletions. (This will require the hiring of paid site staff.) That should ensure the site's prompt demise, so it will certainly solve the "problem."

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:22 AM

Why wait until we log on? They can send us all emails every time there is a problem with a thread. Too bad if we've gone away for a couple of days. And then they will have to track down all those anonymous GUESTS and ask their permission too, and while they're at it, maybe they had better find all the people who might some time in the future decide to look at Mudcat and ask them too!

Just trying to make a "useful suggestion" ;-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:49 AM

Look - how about ALL contributions being automatically deleted by our volunteers BEFORE anyone has a chance to read and be offended by them and BEFORE anyone asks that the entire thread to be deleted or closed?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:53 AM

Shambles you are so fucking brain dead as to be incapable of even working out that system wouldn't even need volunteers. It could be done automatically.

What is your obsession with dragging volunteers into everything?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:56 AM

I'm out of it now BTW. I don't care whether shambles is right or wrong with his views over censorship policies. I have however done a spell as a volunteer hear and got sick and tired of him laying into them for things beyond thier control.

Sorry.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:01 AM

Better clarify my last statement in fairness to Shambles. I was refferring to this current set of threads and don't want to leave the impression that I for example was getting constant stick from shambles. That would be quite untrue.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM

No no no-- they should be auto-deleted BEFORE anyone posts the threads at all!

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 01:44 PM

That's the idea - only just as long as there still remains something for our volunteers to do....


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:12 PM

Well, Shambles, you certainly are getting your share of attention, eh? Good for the old psychoses.

Jon, I just listened to the banjo CD. I sure am grateful you sent that to me.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:20 PM

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick - PM
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM

Why do you feed this creature?? I just read the whole thing and find 99% of it just fodder for this poor guy to continue to feel relevant with his waffle twaffle approach. I am going to suggest that all of us shun this and all of his posts, with two exceptions. I would suggest that only Sir john9 and Catspaw answer him from here on out. Let's give it try, eh? This ought to be fun.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:46 PM

wow..what an amazing memory, filing system and complex set of thread tracings, Shambles!

a fellow's gotta have a hobby, I guess...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Davetnova
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:24 AM

I'd like to post an offensive thread next Tuesday. If some kind Mudelf, Gobblin, or nasty monster under a bridge could delete for me now I would be ever so grateful as it will save me time on tuesday.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:59 AM

"Can"

"May"

"Will"

"Not"

Four different concepts.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:01 AM

100!!!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:12 AM

Thus perhaps illustrating an argument for a thread being closed (something I'm not saying is right or wrong - that's Mudcat policy and I don't wan't to get involved there!)

The last post by Shambles which could have baited me further was another one mentioning volunteers. Something I ignored. And there have been other conversations since (BTW Mick, I'm glad you enjoy that CD. I thought they did a good job in that collection.) I could have posted to.

Some people here do seem insistant on refreshing threads that have got unpleasant back in the faces of people who have even agreed to drop out of them despite further provocation. With posts as inane as 97 and 100.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:18 AM

Thank you! I always enjoy being called inane by a Master.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 02:55 AM

If you take responsibility for your individual communications with Joe, it will create an effect. If you do not, continuing to pump out sulfurous spiels of rococo blame and shame, then that too will create an effect. You will lives with the results of your choices. Frankly, you do not seem happy, in spite of the Herculean efforts you have made. Perhaps a reassessment is in order of how to effectively relate to others in this community.

It is a question of us all taking responsibility for our individual communications with everyone else and recognising the effect. Like others things here that some folk would like to forget - it is a simple fact that everything posted is recorded. So if the forum is a community that I or others need to relate to - it is a very strange community with a photographic memory and instant recall. That is the reality of this discussion forum. When Joe sets an example of posting personal abuse at me and encourages others to do the same and later 'spins' and excuses all of his actions - this is also creates an effect.

Unless our volunteers decide to delete it - no contribution that any poster makes here on the forum dies. Everything you say in a post remains here and can be retrieved after a simple search - looking as fresh as the day you made it.

If volunteers and other posters wish (and are encouraged) to ignore the issue and continue to post here only to make abusive personal attacks upon me for simply expressing a view - This fact is perhaps a point for them to remember? Especially as every post - including the ones telling others what they should do and what a 'wheeze' this would be - are making no contribution to the debate and are simply   refreshing the thread.

If only some of our community would finally face these kind of basic realities - offensive posting would end (without any imposed action from our volunteers) as if no one responded to offending posts and were encouraged by the example set not to - the threads would fall off the page.

I may not like folk posting or being encouraged to post to call me names or question my sanity but I hope that I can at least be given some credit for demonstrating and setting an example - that it is more than possible not to respond in kind - or at all to this provocation.

There is nothing offensive in honest debate about the best way to tackle an ongoing problem. So perhaps any future posts could at least address or hopfully contribute to this debate?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:44 AM

OK Shambles, nothing wrong with a debate.

The basic reality is that the close button can only have come into being with Max's consent an wishes. The basic reality is that there is a chain of authority here Max - Joe/Jeff - other volunteers.

If you could explain why you question POLICY by frequently questioning the lowest end of the chain who have no power whatsoever to set any policy but act under instructions, yet despite dissatisfaction with the Policy (or application of) fail to question the person who ultimately has both control over all policies and over who is enpowered to apply these policies, I may begin to understand you.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM

Shambles,

With your filing system, wouldn't it be possible not only to quote the arguments from others but also to quote your own arguments. That could save you a lot of typing. You're repeating with slightly different words the same well known arguments. Search for any pet phrase from you like 'setting an example' and you'll see that. That really could be a contribution to the surreality of this discourse, you doing the talking for both sides in quotes only.

So perhaps any future posts could at least address or hopfully contribute to this debate (Shambles)

Full of hop? That's a thinly disguised invitation for John from Hull to join the discussion once more.

But on the more serious side, I have the impression that you never read or understand what you claim to respond to. To talk to you about this theme beyond making fun of your contributions seems to me as meaningful as talking back to a hung record.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 03:11 AM

To talk to you about this theme beyond making fun of your contributions seems to me as meaningful as talking back to a hung record.

Wolfgang you could perhaps at least be prepared to give it a try and just talk to me about this theme?

For rather than simply ignore it - you choose to go to all the bother of refresing a thread on a discussion forum - simply it would appear -to again shoot a messenger that has already been well-shot.

Perhaps a forum where the object is to debate or a discuss is not for you? But finding or starting a site where 'making fun of the contributions of others' and playing to the mob - was the sole object - would be more to your current tastes?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST, Jeri
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 09:40 AM

Wolfgang has probably come to the conclusion that the 'subject' is 'what or who Shambles wants to complain about today'. The opposite viewpoint would then logically be to complain about Shambles. Makes sense to me.

If you want people to take you seriously, please state what your purpose is. State what you'd like to happen. State the way you think this 'debate' will cause it to happen. What's the logical chain of events, starting with this 'debate' needed to make it real? I'd like to see this opening statement free of negatives. Try saying "I'd like it if ___" and NOT "I'd like it if ___ would NOT..." or "would it NOT be better if ___"

Shambles, I doubt you'll be able to make a simple, honest statement. You have no dream, no ideal, and your entire side of the 'debate' requires that you attack others. The subject HAS NEVER BEEN deletion of threads or posts, the volunteers and Joe leaving messages within posts, Joe indicating he believes you display idiot-like qualities and therefor 'setting a bad example', nor the rest of the clones 'setting a bad example', nor ferreting out the identites of the clones, nor your calling Joe 'Witchfinder General' [which for some reason doesn't fit your definition of a personal attack or name-calling], and probably a few others I can't think of at the moment. This is not A subject. This is many subjects, which again, depend on attacking what someone else does or says and what you think is likely to get you some attention. If there's a purpose other than trolling, I can't see it.

None of this whatever-you-call-it will change one thing. Max makes the decisions, no matter who the Shambles is trolling this week. One can only speculate about what Max thinks.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM

If there's a purpose other than trolling, I can't see it.

Then why pay any attention or respond to it and refresh the thread?

What this thread has established is that closing (and deleting) an entire thread - containing many perfectly acceptable postings that Max has invited - without any of the posters permission and knowledge - is easy. For any of our unknown number of nameless volunteers can impose this action - if or when they judge the need for this meets their guidelines.

That is technically possible to re-open a closed thread if rather unlikely ever to happen. And that the procedure is to first ask for this via a Personal Message - a course of action that would not be open to any 'guest' poster.

Now as this may seem to be a little OTT - perhaps the policy could now be reviewed - in order that if there is real need for any imposed action to take place at all - this is confined only to the offending posts?
    If there is a compelling need for a thread to be reopened, you can also send your request to me by e-mail, joe@mudcat.org
    If you're not satisfied by my decision, you can appeal to Mudcat owner Max Spiegel, max@mudcat.org
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:33 PM

Why do you admit Max is in charge but continue to pretend this sort of thread will have any effect? That it has any purpose? How do you think this will change Max's mind?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 08:02 PM

why did the two kids I mentioned in the '3 legged-elephant' comment keep nagging me to let them go swim in the fountain?...Because they didn't like my answer, no matter how reasonable and final it was. They wanted to debate it endlessly, hoping I'd get tired and give in.

We've been at this tedious bit for what...3-4 years now? PELS was at least about something..........


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:34 AM

Warm Goodbye From The Shambles

The above thread is the one that was closed twice and I have requested be re-opened. The following are a few contributions which I hope show the tone of this thread and why there was no reason for its double closure and no reason why my request for it to be re-opened, shouldn't be met. I will leave you to judge.

Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Wolfgang - PM
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:27 AM

Roger, I'm sorry you leave too. I dearly hope when you sneak back in a couple of days, weeks, months, Mudcat'll be in such spirit that you'll come back gladly.
There have been too many partings lately: Bruce O., Martin Ryan, Roger Gall. And if you read closely you'll see that others are contemplating this move as well (I remember Alice writing something to that effect). And there are others who just have left without saying a word (I don't mention names for they might have had different reasons). People they are who have helped to make Mudcat what it once was with a sound musical knowledge. If we do not rethink (and act accordingly) others will go too. Let's make Mudcat a place Roger would like to rejoin then we'll get Martin and Bruce back too, I hope.
Wolfgang



Subject: RE: A warm goodbye, from The Shambles.
From: Jeri - PM
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 09:55 AM

Shambles/Roger, I haven't been here at Mudcat very long, and I was just getting to know you. I've seen you around Usenet and have always respected your gentlemanly words. I'm sorry you find it too uncomfortable to remain here (for now, I hope) because I'll miss you and your voice of calm reason and conscience. I'm sorry that the the friendships you've made and the fun you've had don't outweigh the negativity.
Perhaps some of us (yeah, me too) are guilty of being a bit defensive when it comes to Mudcat. It's a wonderful place, but I think we want to see it as perfect. When someone says something negative, we sometimes see it as a threat rather than constructive criticism. We jump right in and to defend our "homeland" and ideals instead of allowing the critics to help us make it better. We take sides. We make mountains out of molehills.
Jeri


I am not placing these post here to embarrass anyone. I have great respect for many of the contributions of these and other posters. Despite the provocation demonstrated in this thread - I have no personal animosity with anyone who posts here – as this would be foolish - for I only know one or two posters personally. This does show that it is foolish to build-up a picture of a poster's entire personality and judge this only from their postings. None of us are saints or sinners but folk with different views who I like to think -do their best. I just wish to see the best of us encouraged and all of this personal judgement of individuals, secrecy and imposed action based on this – not to be tolerated or encouraged as it is divisive.

When Joe did set a good example – I was a great supporter of this. Since he has chosen to set a different example – this is not one I can support and I have been consistent in this (and consistently ignored and abused). Setting a good example and listening to one's children and their demands – is always far better than nagging them, beating them, locking them in or threatening to kick them out of the house. But the comparison to the forum is less than perfect. Ignoring one's own children is not really an option. Ignoring posts that are not to your taste on this discussion forum – is so very easy.

But not – it seems for some of those who would feel qualified to judge us. Who can't resist setting the example of posting only to make personal comments – refresh the threads they do not like and to instruct others not to respond – 'as this will only refresh the thread'. Or incite others to post 'witty' responses – that again will only refresh the thread. This thread is the perfect example of this………There is another way.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:44 AM

Shambles, you persist in side stepping certain questions.

You single out Joe again. I don't care whether you like Joe's methods or not any more than I care whether you like the way censorship here is applied. That is not to say I don't think you should not question policy here or express dissisatisfation - it is your rights to feel how you feel about the forum but I certainly do not want another personal round of what I think Mudcat should/could be, how things should/could be applied so I stay out of that side.

What I don't understand and you constantly fail to explain is this:

You know full well that Joe has a manager called Max. Complaining to Joe in the first instance is fine but having had dissatisfaction at that level, most people I know would either take the matter higher, eg. Complain to Max about Joe and act on that response or simply let the matter drop.

Quite why, even if you believe Joe's actions are wrong, you persist in frequent attacks on Joe when you have the option to question/complain to his manager is completely and utterly beyond me.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:28 AM

I have made no attacks - frequent or otherwise upon barmaids or anybody. I am also trying very hard here not use the generic and impersonal term 'volunteer' as this term (or any other) is thought to be an attack upon these unknown individuals. But when I politely address or reply to the individual who chooses to defend all these actions and uses the term 'we' when doing this - I am accused of personally attacking Joe. I can think of worse terms - but i will stick with 'volunteers'.

The facts simply do not support this accusation. If Joe chooses to 'single me out' and personlly attack me (not perhaps in this thread)) and to incite others to do this - because we are not in agreement or Joe may not feel that he should be judged himself as he judges others - the wisdom of that reaction and the example it sets - is a matter for the rest of the forum to judge.

I feel that there can be no justification for setting this public example (especially from those who feel qualified to sit in judgement upon others) - no matter what the provocation may be - but there would appear to be a double standard - as there is no punishment for volunteers who transgress and indulge in personal attacks.

If anyone here has a personal problem with Max - it is a matter for them to sort out - I am not fighting their battle for them. The facts are all here and I am not complaining to or about anyone - especially Max. It is my view that it is Max's view, that the forum has been provided for the public's views - and that it is the public's responsiblity to do this and make of the forum as they wish.

Joe used to set a good example and I fully supported this. Then using the stick was thought to be preferable example to the use of the carrot. I would simply like to see less of the divisive use of the stick and for folk who volunteer for positions of responsibilty to accept that the example they set for others to follow - must always be above question.

No matter how well-intentioned - the idea that unknown numbers of anonymous volunteers are now required to impose their reactive judgement on the invited contributions of fellow posters in order to protect us from offending ourselves - is plainly too silly for serious consideration. But that is what is defended as being necessary.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:09 PM

Nice try Shambles. But if I wanted a go at Max, I would do the job myself.

The question still stands. This time I see:

"No matter how well-intentioned - the idea that unknown numbers of anonymous volunteers are now required to impose their reactive judgement on the invited contributions of fellow posters in order to protect us from offending ourselves - is plainly too silly for serious consideration. But that is what is defended as being necessary."

Who in God's name do you think invites the volunteers to operate here.

Please give a straight answer and name that person.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:28 PM

Jon, I'm just trying to figure out if he's actually unaware of how obvious the lack of logic is, or it's just a game. I don't think he can possibly be that oblivious, so I'm guessing 'game'. It's possible he thinks no one else will notice, even though that would require an unrealistic underestimate of people in general.

I can't understand his true purpose in this, or any possible intended logical result, and he's incapable of telling me, so I figure this ever-shifting, unresolvable crusade can result in: 1) irritating people, 2) becoming 'background noise', or 3) entertaining them. I don't like being irritated, and the background noice thing is a real future possibility, but I decided I preferred being entertained.

Now this is perfectly reasonable, as long as one understands it's a road that shifts constantly, but always circles back to itself and has absolutely no chance of going anywhere else. It's 'Groundhog Day', but the variations each time around can be interesting.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM

Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

Jeri in this thread. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=72778&messages=102&page=1&desc=yes

As I am only invited to contribute and not invited to the recruitment process - my knowledge of this is limited and it would appear to be a closely guarded secret known only to a favoured few entrusted with the code. I think that it may involve the rolling-up of trouser legs and the swearing of oaths - in meetings held in Jeri's treehouse.

However, I do know that without willing anonymous volunteers - there would not ever be any to impose their judgement upon the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:25 PM

"As I am only invited to contribute and not invited to the recruitment process - my knowledge of this is limited and it would appear to be a closely guarded secret known only to a favoured few entrusted with the code. I think that it may involve the rolling-up of trouser legs and the swearing of oaths - in meetings held in Jeri's treehouse."

Maybe you are right Jeri and that it is a game.

On the other hand, do remember the sad case of ghost who was convinced that messers H&P ran a business enterprise and got angry with Mr P who had a band that weren't traditional (a fact Mr P openly admitted). She wound up in such a state where if she was to pass comment on any festival, she couldn't without informing us it was not ran by the "evil empire" or if traditional music was described, she couldn't pass comment without telling us "it's traditional - not like Mr P's band".

I fear Shambles is heading down that road. I sympathise for him but will no longer take any of his posts seriously.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:45 PM

I do not think it's a game, and I do not think 10,000 replies explaining things to Shambles would change his feelings one whit. He is simply a person with an excess of "righteous indignation" and tenacity. This can be put to good use, or it can become merely an irritating hobby.

I once knew a boy who joined the army --and eventually got discharged because he didn't LIKE the way it was run. At every turn, he saw what seemed to him like injustice and unfairness, and he continuously argued with them...a bad case of tilting at windmills if I ever saw one. He finally got information on illegal practices in the Quartermaster Corps in Korea, and was 'bought off' with an early discharge.

My minds runs in several ways as to what we ought to do in the face of this .....If Shambles continues to bring it up, I suppose some combination of us who disagree will continue to post the contrary views for the sake of readers who are new to the notions of our very own Don Quixote.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:10 PM

Bill, it's not that he might want a crusade or change that gets me. It is what he builds his arguments on that does. The type of situation we would need for the logic used to support his arguments to make sense is:

Max is in control but isn't in control.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed minds be re-opened?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:14 PM

2 cents.

mine.

Your Mileage May vary


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:54 PM

Why do anything?<Nobody's really being hurt by this. Pissed off, maybe, but not hurt, and the forum keeps going on. There isn't much point in explaining anything to someone who won't listen to the answers. I keep asking him what he wants and he can't tell me.

Shambles, why does that quote of mine have anything to do with anything? I appreciate the attention, but<you might want to explain why you pasted it in there because it looks random to me.

Jon, I think he's well on his way down that road, but if he were, I'd feel like I was being cruel by continuing this. I might be wrong about the level of true paranoia though.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:16 PM

If you don't agree or can't understand the message - there is never any need to shoot the messenger and encourage others to do so. Sadly that is the example being set by many of those who feel qualified to volunteer to judge the rest of us. This is the reality behind the 'spin'........

Subject: RE: Personal attack thread - please delete
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11-Jun-04 - 12:01 AM
Max, Jeff, and Joe were off doing other things today, and missed this one. It's a personal attack, and it isn't allowed. Since so many have posted to it, I guess I won't delete it - but I will close it. This is one of the "no-brainers" that the Clones should have deleted early on, no matter what Shambles thinks. Clones, don't let Shambles care you off - you're doing a good job, but you should have deleted this and told us about it.
Bob, I'm sorry this happened.
Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Personal attack thread - please delete
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11-Jun-04 - 12:29 AM
I could delete Bob's name, but I doubt that would do any good. the damage has been done. The thread should have been deleted as soon as it appeared, and I'm sorry that didn't happen.
But Shambles believes in this sort of thing, so I think that maybe this would be a good opportunity to smear his reputation.
Shambles, I'm sick of you and your shit.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Personal attack thread - please delete
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12-Jun-04 - 03:23 AM
Ah, Shambles - we make an exception for you, since you seem to think it's a good thing to have personal attacks. We want to keep you happy, after all. Your whining is so annoying.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

Max is always 'in control'. Some jobs are delegated, like Generals delegate to Colonels and so on down the line. We have 4 levels- 1)Max, 2)Jeff & Joe, 3)the volunteers/elves, and 4) the rest of the members....and guests are sort of the same as members, only different.      
   These levels were set for a reason, but are sort of automatic. If editing abilities were given to everyone, I can barely imagine the mischief that would go on....if NO ONE but Max or Joe could edit, it wouldn't get done, as there's just too much to read since Max has a *JOB* now, and Jeff has a lot to do with the programming aspects and other projects.

The volunteer system just grew from Max's decision to have 'some' control, and HE decided how far it should go.

If I read Shambles complex series of complaints correctly, he would rather have NO editing...even of nastiness and personal attacks. That has been rejected to avoid the hell some newsgroups experience.
But especially he hates not having a list of volunteers posted and seems to want anyone who does edit anything sign it. Jeff & Joe have noted several times that they do not WANT elves to get into personal debates, but have also said that important deletions must be cleared with them!!!!!! So, if I understand it right, ALL serious deletions or thread closings MUST be approved by either Joe or Jeff....or Max, if it comes to that.

I have talked to both Joe & Jeff...face-to-face...and I am content that they are truly doing the best, most reasonable job possible to keep this forum as free as makes sense and still not allow unchecked anarchy.

It's too bad you don't see the point of it, Shambles...but "3 legged elephants CAN'T dance on stairs"


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:15 AM

Thanks Bill for eventually addressing the issue. But I note you have carefully avoided the rather crucial issue of the example set of volunteers mounting and inciting personal attacks upom other posters or how those who are seen to have chosen to indulge in this can remain to have any credibilty.

Again this is the 'spin' you accept and wish everyone to accept. I am pointing out the reality of this 'spin' and asking for this reality to be addressed - before it is blindly defended.

You state - But especially he hates not having a list of volunteers posted and seems to want anyone who does edit anything sign it. Jeff & Joe have noted several times that they do not WANT elves to get into personal debates, but have also said that important deletions must be cleared with them!!!!!! So, if I understand it right, ALL serious deletions or thread closings MUST be approved by either Joe or Jeff....or Max, if it comes to that.

---

Subject: RE: BS: This Thread Is Closed!
From: GUEST,The Shambles - PM
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 07:47 PM

I question whether 'we' have routinely deleted anything. Joe Offer may well have decided to. I suspect also that that Joe's routine deletions and judgement can only increase.

Joe if YOU don't like what the public place on this discussion forum - after they have been invited by Max to do so - and without any rules being set by him - can YOU please leave the rest of us (who do like the forum) - alone?


[Editing comment in brown] Actually, "I" didn't delete the thread in question. Somebody else did, and I approved the deletion. When I'm speaking, "I" means Joe Offer. "We" means that somebody else did it, and I agreed; or it was a joint action or decision.
-Joe Offer-


[Editing comment in green] That's right. I deleted the thread using the general guidelines. When a thread starts out as an attack, there is not much chance of it being civil. Joe is but one of us, and he is the senior admin person. His if generally the last word, but there are several of us that serve this function. There was another thread I asked Joe to review. I felt like it should be closed, but I had participated in it. Hence I felt as though someone else should make the decision. Mudelf

---

Bill is it not clear from the evidence here - that in this case - the 'serious deletions or thread closings WERE NOT be approved by either Joe or Jeff....or Max, if it comes to that'?

Should not any imposed judgement and editing action taken against any poster's wishes or knowledge be thought to be 'serious'?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:03 AM

I approved the deletion (Joe Offer)

is it not clear from the evidence here - that in this case - the 'serious deletions or thread closings WERE NOT be approved by ... Joe (Shambles)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:17 AM

I wouldn't worry about it. It's all spin and when shambles talks of spin, I'm reminded of something a friend had me puzzled over for months. It went.

Q: Why is a mouse when it spins?
A: The higher the fewer.

It took me ages to work out that the humour in it was that the answer was as nonsensical as the question.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:03 AM

Yeah, Jon. Rick loved stuff like that. He'd crack up over stuff he thought was funny because... it wasn't funny. He once accused me of 'not getting it'. I told him I understood why he thought it was funny - I just didn't think it was funny. My sense of the absurd is growing keener these days, and I'm much more appreciative of absurdity, due in no small part to Shambles 'War on Whatever'.

Some days it's funny, and some days it's boring. It was amusing to see him write tons of stuff while avoiding writing even one simple answer to any question I asked. It's amusing to see how many different variations he can come up with on what's basically one theme. It's like people who tell the same joke over and over. The joke stops being funny, but the absurdity in the repetition can be hilarious. Theater of the absurd, several light years past 'too far'. Mudcat's own Andy Kaufman.

Check out Is Discomfort Comedy Really Comedy (at 'isfullofcrap.com'):
"Is discomfort comedy really comedy? Yes and no. It depends on what you think is funnmy [sic]. It's a matter of comedy-faith and your frame of reference, and whether you are in the audience or an audience watching the audience suffer."


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:11 AM

There was another thread I asked Joe to review. I felt like it should be closed, but I had participated in it. Hence I felt as though someone else should make the decision. Mudelf

The imposed deletion referred to by our anonymous volunteer judge was done as they state - by using the general guidelines. However it follows that for anyone else to have approved the decision to delete - the deletion must have first been made.

The other thread referred to was different - the decision to impose deletion appears here to have been made by Joe. Perhaps our nameless volunteer is setting a better and more sensible example than their 'senior admin person' - in not imposing any editing action upon threads they themselves have contributed to?

Under these general guidelines (whatever they are) - I would assume that Joe's personal attacks and incitement for others to do this - should also have qualified for imposed editing action?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:35 AM

Bill despite what you understand and publicly defend - it looks to be pretty clear from the following that our vounteers are encouraged by their 'chief admin person' to judge and impose editing action - BEFORE any approval is sought. Perhaps this is simply because any imposed action taken by any anonymous volunteer under any circumstances - will be automatically approved?

Or perhaps there are some examples where this imposed editing action has NOT been approved and the thread re-opened or the post put back?

Subject: RE: Personal attack thread - please delete
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11-Jun-04 - 12:01 AM
Max, Jeff, and Joe were off doing other things today, and missed this one. It's a personal attack, and it isn't allowed. Since so many have posted to it, I guess I won't delete it - but I will close it. This is one of the "no-brainers" that the Clones should have deleted early on, no matter what Shambles thinks. Clones, don't let Shambles care you off - you're doing a good job, but you should have deleted this and told us about it.
Bob, I'm sorry this happened.
Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:50 AM

From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:16 PM

[part of post snipped]
Subject: RE: Personal attack thread - please delete
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11-Jun-04 - 12:01 AM
Max, Jeff, and Joe were off doing other things today, and missed this one. It's a personal attack, and it isn't allowed. Since so many have posted to it, I guess I won't delete it - but I will close it. This is one of the "no-brainers" that the Clones should have deleted early on, no matter what Shambles thinks. Clones, don't let Shambles care you off - you're doing a good job, but you should have deleted this and told us about it.
Bob, I'm sorry this happened.
Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something.
-Joe Offer-


From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:35 AM
[part of post snipped]

Subject: RE: Personal attack thread - please delete
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11-Jun-04 - 12:01 AM
Max, Jeff, and Joe were off doing other things today, and missed this one. It's a personal attack, and it isn't allowed. Since so many have posted to it, I guess I won't delete it - but I will close it. This is one of the "no-brainers" that the Clones should have deleted early on, no matter what Shambles thinks. Clones, don't let Shambles care you off - you're doing a good job, but you should have deleted this and told us about it.
Bob, I'm sorry this happened.
Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:58 AM

Subject: RE: Personal attack thread - please delete
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11-Jun-04 - 11:09 AM

On second thought, I decided to delete the thread. It serves no purpose.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:55 AM

Jon, his Joe-pasting (Joe-bait) doesn't come close (number-wise) to his Max-pasting. You know, that message from 1999 about "Don't sweat the rules":

#1
#2
#3
#4
#4.5 (Just one line, so I'm not counting it as a full pt. See #7, later in thread.)
#5
#6
#7 (In the same thread Max originally posted it.)
#8
#9
#10
#11
#12
#13

This9is9over9an98-month9period9starting9in9Jun9'04.9I9might9have9missed9some. 9Max9said9it9way9back9in 91999. 9Joe's9probably 9in92ndplace9and 9I9think9I'm9pretty 9far9back. <That9one9line I wrote about gung-ho volunteer9wannabes is probably<the most quoted. (And the one that really has me baffled as to why he quotes it.<


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,~S~
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:35 PM

Was there a special sale on Troll-Food TV dinners????? Cuz ya'll are nuking it and serving it on up!

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

" However it follows that for anyone else to have approved the decision to delete - the deletion must have first been made."

yep, Shambles...that's the way I read it....and heartily approve! It has been made clear that deletions can be UN-deleted if not approved...but IF they were truly deserving of deletion (as most of them are) it were better to have the offending remarks removed THEN, instead of waiting for PM or email exchanges that might take days if Joe & Jeff were not right there 24/7.

If they decide to Undelete a thread or remark, it is a small inconvenience, and the mudelf will have gotten some guidance.

You don't like this procedure...*shrug*....if you read the totality of comments for the last few years, you are outvoted by about 50-1 by members who approve of management decisions over your kibitzing.

...but the mark of a dedicated gadfly is the refusal to give up when he is told NO! I guess you get a medal for perseverance, if not for perspective.....

would it help if I said "pretty please...drop it?"


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:19 PM

would it help if I said "pretty please...drop it?

Bill - one of the points arising from all of this - that should be slowy dawning upon you by now is that - if this thread or subject on this public disussion forum is not to your or anyone elses tastes - no one is forcing you to even open it. Why would you wish to impose your judgement upon what I choose to do?

You don't need all these layers of management or any anonymous volunteer to close or delete my views for you -if you don't open these threads - as far you are concerned - it is dropped.

It is really that simple. So you can stop trampling over the body of the long-dead messenger - calm down and leave me to it.....

If I plough on - what does it matter to you or anyone else? If I am outvoted - (which I actually doubt) this matters not either. For as I think you have pointed out (probably more than once) this is not a democracy. But this is my view - it is as valid as anyone elses and if I wish to express it - that is a matter for me.

Whether you respond or not - is a matter for you.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 02:31 PM

As to me being outvoted - this (also closed) thread does contain some votes.

POLL - stop flaming and abusive postings


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:06 PM

Interesting Jeri. I hadn't been that observant.

It's quite sad really but you picked on a good example. Much of Shamble's reality is based around a statement that I doubt was ever intended to be taken quite as literaly as Shambles does even back in 1999, let alone now when needs might have changed.

Tell me something: I think the quoted post was just that bit before my time and you go back here a bit further than me... Would a direct personal attack on or threat towards another person have been tolerated even then?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:46 PM

well, Shambles...all I can say is that your argument works both ways.If I choose to respond to your responses, even if it's just to see my own opinions in print, I guess 'freedom' extends that far..*grin*

"Why would you wish to impose your judgement upon what I choose to do?"

Because you have chosen to impose YOUR judgement on what Mudcat management has chosen to do. It's an infinite loop.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:48 PM

And another question: When did gargoyle get banned as a member? Assuming that happened (I can only go by what I've read), my feeling is that it would predate the no-rules bit.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:58 PM

Because you have chosen to impose YOUR judgement on what Mudcat management has chosen to do. It's an infinite loop.

Max has chosen to open this part of his website for all the public's contributions - that includes us both.

I just post the view here I am invited to contribute. Expressing my wish that no one should ever feel qualified to impose their judgement and delete the contributions of others.

Bill I can't IMPOSE anything upon anyone - nor control anyone but my own posting - nor would I have any wish to. If this contribution is not to anyone else's taste - the very best judgement they can express here - is to sinply ignore it.....


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:19 PM

Jon, as near as I can tell, the post of Max's that Shambles keeps quoting was in 1999, and Garg got banned later that year or in early 2000. I don't know if this thread was the first one closed or not, but it was closed ("retired") in Jan 00 - by Max. He closed this thread later the same day.

At the very least, this shows that Max adapted when people got serious about being nasty. It shows the closing of threads began with Max. I don't think he believed that level of nastiness would ever happen here when he wrote the post Shambles keeps quoting.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM

So Shambles, why aren't you taking this up with Max?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:17 PM

Because it makes him feel important to post here, even if it is the same thing over and over.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:31 PM

-gargoyle was banned temporarily for general naughtiness...Max later offered to re-instate him, but he chose not to leave himself open to PMs, as I understand it...at least he posted some ambiguous remarks about being 'afraid'...as far as I know, gargoyle can be a member if he chooses.
it's not really relevant to THIS topic, I think... but here is Max, saying that he WANTS everyone to have their say, as longs as they stay within reasonable bounds.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

From: Max - PM
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 12:54 AM

OK, gargoyle, you got it. I tried to give your membership back months ago, but you apparently never got my message. Your tactics are crude, you are often inappropriate and rude, and I obviously cannot ever agree with you for the simple fear that anyone would think that your type of efforts could or should be effective, but you are undoubtedly a knowledgeable member of our community. My motive for your membership? People want to be able to talk to you… and as ambiguous as I may seem here, my sole function is to facilitate that… because that is what The Mudcat is all about.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:46 PM

Yes Bill. we know that. The only point in this is that Max took actions as extreme as banning people before (to our knowledge) even closed a thread was achieved by Joe.

It's not Max that is under question but I for one want to know why Shambles questions such a minor detail as closing a thread and has a go at the clones when it is perfectly clear that their manager has even banned someone as "punishment".


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:53 PM

*shrug*...because he feels like it, I guess...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:19 AM

Well, I remember this hullabaloo! But now Garg's remarks in the thread about unemployment are downright caring! And someone has put the screws to Lep...I mean Martin. (Silly me, my mistake)

So much change since then. I hate change. I hate to lose the people we have lost. I'm glad Shambles is still being Shambles. I wish Rick was still being Rick. and little john and WW and okthen and JulieB, LrMOLE, Giac....and god knows who else...

The rest of you are still being yourselves, too. Good, Consider the alternative...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:13 AM

It must be obvious that whatever Max's purpose or intention in opening this part of his website to the public - if our forum is mostly used in practice by some individuals to pass judgement on the sanity, motives and general worth of other individuals - based only on the words of their postings - rather than ignoring obvious provocation and this practice is encouraged - there is going to be a lot of public conflict.

If (as at present) all this personal judgement is encouraged by the example generally set - perhaps and before it is too late - a different example can NOW be set and encouraged? Especially by those who would feel themselves entitled to pass judgement on other posters and feel qualified to impose their personal judgement upon their fellow contributors?

People post what they will and it up to everyone else to accept this as a fact beyond their control. Encouraging folk to make a subsequent fuss and demanding that a contribution be later removed because it may not be to their taste - will not alter the fact that it first appears but will simply bring attention to something that many would have been unaware of in the first place and would have died a natual death.

But what the current censorship does is to devide us, bring attention to them, lose perfectly acceptable contributions along with the (possibly) offending one and in the case of thread closures - prevents any positive contributions from altering the course of the thread.

If this thread was thought to be an offending one - just look at how many times it has been refreshed by folk simply making judgements of the threads worth. If there is no valid contribution to the issue made in the post - could it simply not be ignored?

I am and feel - despite many pointless efforts to make me feel less so - just as important as any other contributor and perhaps - unlike others - have no need to be ever thought more important than others.

But when you are reading anyone's contribution - perhaps they are at that time - the most important one or at least the views being expressed in that post are the most important? The choice having read it is simple - to respond to those views or to ignore the thread.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:02 AM

Of course it is obvious that the forum was opened to allow contributions - there would not be any point in a forum otherwise would there?

What is not obvious is why Shambles words his posts the way he does. If he was to say something like

"I think the editing/censorship policy has got too heavy here and we would be better off with the rules being more relaxed" and opened up a debate on those terms, while I'd opt not to join in, I'd not really have a problem with him.

But Shambles does not do that he has to throw "that Max has invited" and to paraphrase "the actions of evil volunteers under the control of witchfinder Joe Offer" in.

When he does that, I only see what he doing is attacking people for doing no more than their job. His argument becomes nonsensical because a) If he credits Max for control, he should also credit Max for control of his "employees" and b) as has been shown the person he is blaming for the closure of threads was not even the first person to set such an example in the forum.

It remains a mystery to me why Shambles, having gone on here does not take the issue up with Max who has the control. It gets even weirder when Shambles illustrates total respect for Max - that to me would give even more reason to discuss the matter with him. Either he is completely tapped, or his real motives are nothing to do with what he says they are but a desire to attack someone - probably Joe.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:23 AM

Jon, in lieu of any ANSWERS from Shambles, I'd guess he's tried and failed to force (by a 'Shock and Awe' campaign of 'explanation' and 'debate') Max to jump through hoops. It was probably a much more one-sided variety of 'ineffective' than his crusade here.

The control stuff then comes out in the forum, aimed at secondary and tertiary targets, to no particular goal. Jon, you said, "...or his real motives are nothing to do with what he says they are", but if he's ever actually said what they are, I haven't seen it here. This leaves him free to change them whenever it suits.

Anyway, I'm just agreeing with you. This has turned into one of those things like when people go to a concert to see how drunk or stoned a performer is, or how bizarre he'll act, and don't really care about the music. At first, people will continue to go because there just<might still be an occasional flash of brilliance. But eventually the flashes stop and it's the spectacle, and only the spectacle, that draws.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:50 AM

Sorry to interupt - but OK

I think the editing/censorship policy has got too heavy here and we would be better off with the rules being more relaxed.

Censorship on Mudcat

The evidence for some of the personal attacks upon me and who they are from - are here. If I am to accused of attacking people - perhaps some evidence of this can be first provided? For I think even my harshest regular critics may at least give me a little credit for not responding (and in kind) to a lot of obvious provocation.

Folk may not agree with my views and I may well have upset some well-intentioned volunteer by refering to volunteers and some their actions - but this was not the intention and I have no way of knowing who these people may be. Apart from those who make no secret of the example they set by mounting personal attacks and encouraging others to do this - from their position of privilige.

Some of these anonymous volunteers may even be among those posting and refreshing this thread? Who knows?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 11:09 AM

Sometimes people are trying to joke with you and lighten up the heavy tone you set, Shambles-- not attacking you. I bet this is especially true of the volunteers whose posts you have quoted so many times.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:03 AM

Subject: Why was this thread closed twice?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24-Aug-04 - 09:15 AM

Why was it thought necessary for the following thread to be closed, not once but twice?


Now if this is stting a 'heavy' tone - perhaps a word can be found for the tone of some of the subsequent responses?

But the tone was set by the action taken. Imposing judgement on the perfectly acceptable and invited contributions of many posters by deleting or closing a thread without their knowledge or permission - I feel is - always far too heavy.

Joe used to set a good example and I fully supported this. Then using the stick was thought to be preferable example to the use of the carrot. I would simply like to see less of the divisive use of the stick and for folk who volunteer for positions of responsibilty to accept that the example they set for others to follow - must always be above question.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:20 AM

Lucky I caught this - it nearly slipped off the bottom of the list.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:21 AM

It should have been established through all the anti-guest nonsense that first of all people posting anonymously is not generally popular by other posters - even if when this is clearly thought OK by Max.

Thankfully we do seem to have moved-on a little from this one and generally recognise that what name is used - is matter for the poster.

Also it is clear that when posting as a guest - folk will receive a lot of criticism directed at guests that they may not have earned. For there are many reasons why folk do not choose to become members or use their real (or even a consistent) name.

The same is true of the word 'volunteer'. When I question the actions of one volunteer - this tends to be seen by them as questioning (or even a personal attackon) them all.

A defensive reaction to this may be understandable and for all I know - all of the posters to this thread could be one of our anonymous volunteers! If they were - their views expressed here may be seen in a different light?

I really think that anonymous volunteers who are able and encouraged to judge, delete and close entire threads - is over the top and as it is never going to be generally popular and the results of volunteers defending this practice is so devisive - perhaps a review can take place?

If it generally thought that posters should be prepared to own their views - is it really too much to expect that all volunteers are seen to own their own actions? Perhaps if they are not so prepared - the abilty to judge and impose editing action upon others should not be given?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:11 AM

"If it generally thought that posters should be prepared to own their views - is it really too much to expect that all volunteers are seen to own their own actions? Perhaps if they are not so prepared - the abilty to judge and impose editing action upon others should not be given?"

Shambles, let's try again very nicely:

Do volunteers set the rule that they can act anonymously or does Max set the rule?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:29 PM

If you follow the line of reasoning put forward by some posters in this thread - no one - except the person on overall charge of a nation is responsible for any of their actions. This idea is attractive to some and we have seen the end result of this too many times.

The excuse that folk were only following orders has been tried before and is now finally discredited. This excuse given - (even by those who volunteered and only when finally brought to account) - was that they had no choice to undertake the things they did. Under some circumstances - this excuse may have some weight - but Max is not threatening going to shoot his volunteers.

I think the editing/censorship policy has got too heavy here and we would be better off with the rules being more relaxed.

If indeed these are the hard-and-fast-set-forever forum rules (which I doubt) - they can always be subject to a review if they look like being counter-productive.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:20 PM

Of course the volunteers are responsible. TO MAX, not to any individual, and not about policies!

If your complaint boils down to the fact that you feel one or more individual volunteers has been rude to you, take it up with their boss!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:57 PM

Of course there is nothing stopping our anonymous volunteers from being doubly anonymous and posting as a guest. It has certainly happened...........

Or perhaps I am the only non-volunteer poster left on the forum?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:19 PM

Subject: RE: Deleted post
From: GUEST,unrepentant clone - PM
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 12:03 PM

Ad-I deleted it. It was only 15 minutes after it had been posted, and I was not sure anyone else had even seen it. It was posted in the music threads, was obviously copied and pasted, and not only had no commentary to explain why you posted it, it was offensive and inflammatory.

Still, I should have left a note saying what I had done and why. I had a phone call and totally forgot. Apologies for that.

We allow a lot of non-music discussion on lots of things, but it just struck me as an attempt to fan flames. That is only the 2nd post I have deleted in several months. Obviously, this volunteer moderator game is not an exact science.


http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=69253&messages=19


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:50 PM

"The excuse that folk were only following orders has been tried before and is now finally discredited. This excuse given - (even by those who volunteered and only when finally brought to account) - was that they had no choice to undertake the things they did. Under some circumstances - this excuse may have some weight - but Max is not threatening going to shoot his volunteers."

Bollocks Shambles. Max could stop the volunteers - your waffle can't.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:04 PM

Shambles continues to use the term "our website" as if he had ownership. He, nor any of us, have any ownership. Max owns the website. Period. Shambles, if he had any intention of really accomplishing something, would acknowledge that. But of course, he doesn't have any honorable intention. He simply likes to hear the sound of his own voice.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:51 AM

It matters little if I had said this - for it would just be my view - politely expressed. But if I an to be personally attacked (by a known volunteer) for expressing this view - perhaps some evidence of me saying that 'this is our website' can be provided?

This the part of Max's website that he has very kindly given over for all of the public's contributions. This is our forum and Max at least does appear to try his very best to always honour this. There must be serious question if this current forum arrangement (with its procupation with 'what 'we' allow') - as it works in practice - does honour this. Perhaps it could be reviewed and a lighter touch be applied?

And perhaps this adversarial defence - to any possible criticism of all this imposed judgement upon contributors by anonymous volunteers - be change to a more useful one?

Those that really need protection are the posters who find their perfectly acceptable contributions have been deleted - against their knowledge and wishes - along with an entire thread by someone who chooses to judge other posters - but remain unknown.

Volunteers appear to have many choices - I just suggest that choosing to remain anonymous whilst able to delete the invited contributions of others members of the public - is not one that is open to them. Or an honourable one in these circumstances. Nor is setting the example of undertaking personal attacks, inciting others to do this or of making it acceptable to 'make fun' of the invited contributions of others from this responsible position.

No - it is true that our volunteers are not on trial here. But it would seem that the rest of the public are. If personal attacks are to be thought not acceptable - perhaps our volunteers can be seen not to be indulging in them and the public can be set the example of how to post responsibly?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:08 AM

Rambles, I don't know what the rules are now but when I was one, I was one who preffered to be known as a volunteer. Jeri is another who has made herself known through choice.

It is possible that such choice does not even exist now - like it or not, volunteers don't set the rules, they operate under the rules that ultimately are set by Max. All we know is it appears that both Jeff and Joe prefer it that volunteers are not named.

Whatever, while Max has the rule that volunteers can be anonymous, I will consider you spineless for not taking the issue up with him, but instead trying to bully them into naming themselves.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:14 AM

Rambles ..... I like that Jon. It is a perfect fit.

Rambling Roger ..... I think I could write a song with a name like that. It would have the same inane verse repeated over and over 500 times.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:30 AM

Doubtless with the chorus.

I'm a rambler, I'm a rambler, in shambless' way....


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:37 AM

RE: Mudcat, Please organise these threads!         10 Feb 04

GUEST,Jon is right, there are many differing opinions here at the Mudcat. For instance, Jon's opinion is that his site is a "rival" to Mudcat. My opinion is that Jon is flattering himself with such status, and that he's an asshole. Yet despite our difference of opinion, the Mudcat clicks and hums on its merry way.>snip<

Cynically yours,

Max


I am still waiting for the evidence to be provided to demonstrate the accusation made that I claim any form of ownwership or refer to this as 'our website'. I make the very important distinction between Max's website and the public discussion forum that he has kindly provided for all of us on this website - and confine my invited views to this area of operation.

I will also leave others to judge who is attempting to bully who.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM

Wow famous at last. Rambles has got a quote in with my name.

My dearest Rambles, it is no secret that these days that my relationship with Max is one I think adequately described as tolerant but mutual contempt for each other.

I have no complaints about the current censorship policy and have no problems with the set up. You remain the one with the problems but fail to take them up at the level needed to do anything about them.

If I wanted to call Max an arsehole, I would and if he wanted to call me an asshole, he would. That would not however resolve what is your complaint.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:18 PM

If any one wishes to continue to make personal attacks upon, to call me names or conduct conversations with others about me - can they please do this in the Personal Messages that Max has provided? This would prevent them from keep refreshing a thread on a subject that they obviously do not wish to make any positive contribution to and which their posting will inflict upon everyone else?

Just for the record and if anyone should care - I don't think that Max is an arsehole.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:32 PM

Rambles, you just don't get it do you? I don't have a personal issue with Max on this a) because I like the current setup and b) I don't care enough to have a fallout over policy even if I did. and c) I prefer the situation where I can post peacfully and any feelings are left out of it.

A situation with Max and I was reached but it is not one that needs dirty linen ironing out here or one that needs you taking sides. Max is quite capable of arguing for himself as I am.

If you want a positive in all this: Here you go. I think Max did a good thing in introducing the close button here - I don't want fights anyway, but even if I did, I'm not about to criticise him or ask you to do so on my behalf over something I approve of.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:42 PM

That IS a good one-- asking for PMs instead of posts.

1. Volunteers who choose to be anonymous would be outed.

2. If you don't like the way this thread's going, Shambles, gee-- "just don't open it."

And no I am not a volunteer posting as a guest. I just don't care for you to drag my name into your habit of endless quotes upon quotes.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:53 PM

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:13 AM

It must be obvious that whatever Max's purpose or intention in opening this part of his website to the public - if our forum is mostly used in practice by some individuals


The bold, underline was added by me to so you wouldn't miss it.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

The whole quote as follows-

It must be obvious that whatever Max's purpose or intention in opening this part of his website to the public - if our forum is mostly used in practice by some individuals to pass judgement on the sanity, motives and general worth of other individuals - based only on the words of their postings - rather than ignoring obvious provocation and this practice is encouraged - there is going to be a lot of public conflict.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM

Well Rambles, most of my posts are either musical or tech related as I like tech but yes, sure I do question your sanity on this one.

One you may not have spotted is that Mick and I have different feelings towards Max. Yet we have the same conclusion about you.

My relationship with Mick is such that a CD can be exchanged without worrying about whether one or other of us like or dislike Max. In the grand scale of things, it is nothing. Mick may think there are errors in my jugdgement and has pointed out, even publicaly that he dissagrees with me on some issues but it doesn't get away from me holding some respect for him.

I've had dissagreements with Joe and with Jeri too but there is nothing in anything that has happened here that would cease to make either of them welcome visitors here should fate take them to N Norfolk. That is probably my biggest gripe with you BTW. When you implicate the Clones, you are attacking people I still consider as friends.

Even with Max, in spite of rows, If I was face to face with him, I'd probably buy him a pint, and maybe even try to see if there was a way of a better relationship that there is now. Probably unresolvable but there is nothing in my life that would make me want to attack him for your dislike of a system.

The only person with a problem on these issuses remains you and you are incapable of answering why you don't have a discussion with someone you respect on issues only he can control.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:47 PM

Just for a change, let me tell you a German joke, but I have to explain a bit before telling:
(1) In German, 'one' and 'a' are expressed by the same word, 'ein'. (2) I don't know how you call a driver driving on the wrong side of the motorway, we call him a 'ghost driver'. Now the joke:

Urgent traffic warning in the radio: "On the motorway M1 northbound between Exits 37 and 39 there's a/one ghost driver coming ahead. Please do not overtake and drive carefully in the left lane. We'll announce it if the incident is over."
One driver muttering to himself: "One??? Hundreds!"

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:44 PM

Thanks for refreshing this thread. The following is probably the same joke. It is about the same age.

There was the driver stopped for going the wrong way down a one-way-street. When this fact was pointed out - he replied - that he was only going one way!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:35 PM

Nice joke wolfgang.

It does remind me though of an incident that had me terrified, I was in a car travelling up the M6 (I think) heading for Leeds, We missed the turn of and our driver decided to reverse to the junction. Travelling backwards toward cars probalby doing 80mph (our limit is 70 but it tends to be excedeed) is scarey.


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