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Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th

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John Routledge 21 Sep 04 - 04:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 04 - 07:09 PM
Joe Offer 21 Sep 04 - 07:24 PM
katlaughing 21 Sep 04 - 07:25 PM
Leadfingers 21 Sep 04 - 08:10 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 04 - 04:06 AM
Zany Mouse 22 Sep 04 - 06:38 AM
s&r 22 Sep 04 - 06:52 AM
alanabit 22 Sep 04 - 07:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 04 - 04:26 PM
Grab 23 Sep 04 - 04:01 AM
alanabit 23 Sep 04 - 09:12 AM
s&r 23 Sep 04 - 06:10 PM
Lanfranc 23 Sep 04 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,Spot the Dog 24 Sep 04 - 12:08 PM
John MacKenzie 24 Sep 04 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Guest, 8_Pints@work 24 Sep 04 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,Jon 24 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM
Dave Wynn 24 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM
Lanfranc 24 Sep 04 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,Chong Chee Ming 13 Mar 07 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,JTT 14 Mar 07 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,FreddyHeadey (19Jan2015) 21 Feb 15 - 11:22 PM
GUEST,michaelr (19 Jan 2015) 21 Feb 15 - 11:22 PM
GUEST,Teribus (19 Jan 2015) 21 Feb 15 - 11:24 PM
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Subject: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 04:08 PM

At 10pm Friday 24th Sept. BBC 4 is screening a documentary about the life and death of Kirsty MacColl.

FWIW the programme is recommended viewing according to a review in the Sunday Times.


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 07:09 PM

I picked up a cassette of Kirsty's "Kite" album" last week, and I've been playing it in the car. She really did have an remarkable voice - the words would cut through even an overdone accompaniment, and the noise of the engine and the traffic. And she had a great way with words, maybe even as good as her father - and remember, by the age Kirsty was killed, Ewan was far from reaching his full statute as a songwriter.

But driving along, there was one verse from her song "Free World" which really raised the hairs on my neck, in the light of the way she died:

Going down
You've got to get into the water
Like a lamb to the slaughter
In this free world baby,
Going Down...


Here is an article in The Observer which tells the same stiry that this programme looks as if it going to focus on -Singer Kirsty's family see hope for justice.

"Since her death, relatives of the singer led by her mother, Jean MacColl, have battled to find out who really killed Kirsty. They have long suspected a cover-up and despite two investigations believe the real culprit - the son of a millionaire retail tycoon - has never been brought to justice."


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 07:24 PM

I think we'd better post the text of that article, in case it disappears.
-Joe Offer-

Observer | Singer Kirsty's family see hope for justice



Singer Kirsty's family see hope for justice

Antony Barnett and Vanessa Thorpe
Sunday September 19, 2004

The Observer

When Kirsty MacColl died in 2000 after being hit by a speedboat while scuba-diving in Mexico, her many friends in the musical world from Bono to Billy Bragg were shocked by what seemed then like a tragic accident.

One the most admired female singer-songer writers of her generation, MacColl came from a musical dynasty that helped to shape British popular music.

Since her death, relatives of the singer led by her mother, Jean MacColl, have battled to find out who really killed Kirsty. They have long suspected a cover-up and despite two investigations believe the real culprit - the son of a millionaire retail tycoon - has never been brought to justice.

Last week the family secured an important breakthrough when the Mexican Foreign Secretary, Luis Ernesto Debez, visited the House of Commons. At a meeting of the All Parliamentary Group on Mexico he told politicians he would review the case and act if the proper processes had not been followed or if there was any evidence of corruption.

Jean MacColl welcomed this development as 'excellent news'. She said: 'We thank the Mexican government for their help and now hope these words are followed up by action and we can finally get justice for Kirsty.'

Baroness Miller, vice-chair of the parliamentary group, said: 'He was very well briefed on the case and promised to look at it again. I came away very optimistic.'

Last year, an illiterate deckhand, Jose Cen Yam, was found guilty of culpable homicide after he was alleged to have been driving the powerboat at the time it tore into Kirsty. Although he was sentenced to two years and 10 months in prison he was allowed to pay a £61 fine and walk free. Yet the family's own investigation, which involved hiring private investigators, unearthed a range of witnesses suggesting a cover-up.

The powerboat in question, the 31ft Percalito was registered offshore in Guernsey and belonged to Guillermo Gonzalez Nova, the 67-year-old boss of one of Mexico's largest companies, Comercial Mexicana, which owns a chain of stores and restaurants. It emerged that Nova was on the boat with his family including his two sons and granddaughter. MacColl's family believe that one of the tycoon's sons was at the helm.

MacColl was diving with her two teenage sons at the Chankanaab Reef, about 300m offshore, a popular site where boats were prohibited from travelling more than four knots. The twin-engined Percalito was travelling more than five times that.

The initial police investigation revealed that Cen Yam's main job was to carry out maintenance on the Percalito and he had no licence to drive the boat, nor had he ever taken the Percalito's helm before. At the trial he was unable to answer basic questions and was confused between left and right.

Dive-master, Ivan Diaz, who was with the singer when she was hit, said in a statement to the authorities: 'After they ran over us, I saw Cen Yam jump forwards from the back of the boat, to the controls. I couldn't see who was at the wheel because the bow was so high out of the water.' Although he did not see who was at the wheel, Diaz said Nova's two sons were in the front, nearest the controls.

In March, Mexican federal authorities agreed to reconsider the case after Kirsty's mother visited the island of Cozumel where the accident took place. Yet hopes of a breakthrough were dashed when the federal prosecutor abandoned the investigation.

The MacColl family were outraged by the decision particularly after they found that the key witness, the supermarket tycoon, was never interviewed. Jean MacColl hopes to appeal directly to Mexico's attorney-general. She also intends to stage a fundraising concert for the Justice For Kirsty Campaign.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 07:25 PM

Good to hear they may see justice after all. Thanks.

kat


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:10 PM

There is a report in todays Torygraph of a case where a loon racing a sand yacht killed a mother in front of her children - Its NOT just the idiots in fast boats - there are clowns everywhere there are people !!


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 04:06 AM

Unfortunately the real culprit will never be convicted for this sad death. What I'm expecting now is an offer of money from the owner of the boat, and an expression of deep regret, but no admission of guilt. What good is cash when you've lost a child, especially so needlessly as this?
Giok


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:38 AM

As an ex-diver I can tell you that most divers have a tale of boat-stupidity. When I used to dive with Les Sullivan he was hit by our own dive boat (albeit gently, thank goodness). Although he wasn't hurt his camera equipment was damaged (I think he lost a light metre, but that might be my bad memory).

So, if you want a light metre, there should be one lurking at the bottom of Swanage Bay!

Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:52 AM

The sand yacht death is not quite as clear cut as some 'loon racing a sand yacht'. There was an organised race along the beach at St Annes, and the driver of the sand yacht was one of twelve competitors. He has been charged with manslaughter, and the trial is proceeding. Perhaps the question here is 'why was a race held on a public beach with no fenced off track?'

Stu


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 07:02 AM

In Germany a few weeks ago, a driver who had killed a mother and her daughter, by tailgating at high speed, was given a suspended sentence and a fine. It emerged during his trial, that he had regularly driven at speeds in excess of 200kph. The most shocking aspect of the case, is that this worthless piece of dirt will get his licence back in a year's time. At least in Britain he would have gone to prison for causing death by dangerous driving. Different cultures...
Justice won't bring back Kirsty McColl, but it may help to prevent other innocent mothers being killed so callously.


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 04:26 PM

The important thing with dangerous drivers like that - on land or sea - isn't so much jaiing them, it should be to ensure that they never again get a chance to get behind a wheel for the rest of their lives. I can't understand the logic behind these short-term bans.

It always strikes me as strange that so often the very people who get fiercely punitive about theft suddenly turn incredibly tolerant of car-driving crime. (Except when it's a stolen car, of course.)


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: Grab
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 04:01 AM

Off-topic here. Leadfingers and s&r, I was brought up in St. Annes. Every now and again, there's always some nutter who thinks he could succeed where Canute failed. The course was marked out with signs and roped off at the time, but this woman thought they didn't apply to her. Imagine someone deciding they were within their rights to cross the road at Monaco during the Grand Prix, and you'll understand the stupidity of arresting the sandyacht pilot. St. Annes is to sandyachting what Monaco is to F1, but now they're banned from racing there until this case is over. If the pilot is convicted then sandyachting in the UK will be over forever, because you cannot buy a beach in the UK (the area between high and low water marks is Crown property) and this would set a precedent that no amount of safety precautions can make you immune to prosecution. There could also be a knock-on effect on other sports such as motor racing.

Very different to Kirsty McColl's case, where the boat was clearly being driven dangerously. I agree, there *are* loons everywhere, but the person who sustains the injury is not always the victim.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 09:12 AM

I think we have unearthed another topic for a four pint debate there Kevin. Part of my outrage stems from the frequency with which I have seen these selfish, arrogant people endanger others with complete, cavalier indifference. I don't like theft either, but I am with you in spirit on the issue of car crime. Deliberate, dangerous driving is despicable behaviour, which, in my view, needs criminalising. I am fed up of people being cavalier about it.


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: s&r
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:10 PM

Graham - I wasn't aware the beach was roped off - this just strengthens my belief that the driver did nothing 'wrong' - a tragic occurrence nontheless.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: Lanfranc
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 09:22 PM

The reef that Kirsty was killed on wasn't roped off, but it is subject to a speed limit and is a known diving location.

To drive a car without a licence or any form of training is a crime, to drive a powerboat with a similar lack of qualification isn't (at least in the UK and Mexico). Any imbecile can acquire a powerboat or personal watercraft one minute, and take to the water the next.

Didn't see the programme, but will catch a rerun if I can.

Alan


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: GUEST,Spot the Dog
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:08 PM

Just note that the hour preceeding the documentary is devoted to Kirsty's life and songs. So for me (a dyed in the wool Kirsty fan) it's a superb two hours of TV.

Her father was well liked and was reputed to be a brilliant songwriter. He never rattled my cage but his daughter starts where he left off for lyrics. She was one of the best.

Spot


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:41 PM

Ewan was a bit odd at times, but he is to British folk music, what Woodie Guthrie was to American. It is impossible to over emphasise his contribution to our folk culture. The Radio Ballads in particular will go down in history as a masterpiece. Kirsty inherited some of his talent, and without doubt would have gone on to greater things.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: GUEST,Guest, 8_Pints@work
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 01:18 PM

Totally agree with the sentiments expressed above.

Bob vG

PS see also Ewan MacColl thread.cfm?threadid=73432&messages=6


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

And I can't recieve the damn program. Maybe conditions will be better when they run the repeat later tonight. It's hard (beyond me) to know what to do here. When I got the 1st freeview box, I checked thier site and said OK but may need new/different ariel. I get a second one find we start having problems and on checking freeview find they have changed their minds and that our postcode area can't get it at all... At the moment, where the ariel wire is in the roof I have one amp and on each set with a digi-box (main tv and my pc) run a further amp... As I check while posting, I can get BBC1 at the moment quite clearly on the freeview box but I just can't get the signal strength for BBC4... Driving me nuts... If they were to give better strengths one way or other, I'd rather they gave things like BBC4 I can only get this way prefernce to say BBC1 which I can always get on analog without the freeview box.


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

Just watched two hours of excellent T.V. I don't DO heart on sleeve stuff and don't go in for hugs and things but I would have done antthing to have made everything better for her sons , partner and Mum. Don't hold this against me but I have just cried while watching something for the first time since seeing Bambi in 1958.

Getting soft and foolish in my dotage.

Spot (the desolate) Dog


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: Lanfranc
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:11 PM

Thought I'd missed it in a senior moment early yesterday.

Saw both programmes today. Did StD impressions when they went back to the reef where she died.

She must have felt something for her father, otherwise she could have disavowed him by being Kirsty Miller. Such a waste of a considerable talent and, by all accounts, a highly intelligent and much-loved woman.

Justice must be done, the wealth of the owner of the boat that killed her must not be allowed to buy his immunity.

Justice for Kirsty indeed.

Alan


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Subject: A Requiem for Mob Justice
From: GUEST,Chong Chee Ming
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:19 PM

The facts are - as others pointed out above - EVEN if he
was brought to the courts, EVEN if he was found guilty
of manslaughter, EVEN if he was given the heaviest
jail sentence and fine under their (probably kangaroo-type)
laws ...... he'd walk out a free man, with likely nothing
else than a simple light "probabation" or "house arrest" -
just with a flip of his check book.

As they say, money runs the world. That's the cruel facts
of "civilization". It's unfortunate this case hadn't happened
during the early "barbaric" times (2000 BC rather than AD)
when some mob would likely have dragged him out,
skinned or crucified him and left him hanging in the open to rot
for the wolves and vultures. That's the kind of justice which
is right and proper for these kind of bastards. One does
miss the "good old days".


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:10 AM

Perhaps people should write *polite, kind* letters to the tycoon's sons, asking them to find the truth of Kirsty McColl's tragic death, and enclosing some of her music? If they're adults, that is.


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: GUEST,FreddyHeadey (19Jan2015)
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 11:22 PM

2009 update :
Kirsty MacColl's mother ends campaign for justice after nine years


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: GUEST,michaelr (19 Jan 2015)
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 11:22 PM

So sad. It's a crying disgrace.


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Subject: RE: Who killed Kirsty MacColl-BBC4 Fri 24th
From: GUEST,Teribus (19 Jan 2015)
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 11:24 PM

"The reef that Kirsty was killed on wasn't roped off, but it is subject to a speed limit and is a known diving location."

300m off the shore, IIRC 100m is the area that is normally taken to the danger zone and the speed of boats, jet-skis is restricted or subject to exclusion rules. If the area is not clearly marked then the situation created by that omission is literally a disaster waiting to happen.

The reports say that the boat was a "Speed Boat" - a day boat with no enclosed cabin so it is highly unlikely that they had a chart table or indeed a chart. The speed restriction and the fact that it was an area used by divers may, or may not have been marked on any "local" chart but that would only be "known" if that chart was available and those in the boat had the means to identify their position on that chart. Generally people are extremely poor at estimating distances and speeds at sea.

A terrible tragedy but fault does not purely lie with those on the boat. For a speed boat to run any "diver" down means that the diver would have to be on or very close to the surface. Divers, whether diving with a dive-leader or not are responsible for surfacing safely, to do that they must:
- Look up at the surface to visually check that the surface is clear.
- Listen, any power boat, particularly one moving at speed makes one hell of a din.
- Monitor the size of your exhaled bubbles and keep pace and adjust rate of ascent to match the smallest bubbles you can see.
- Hold one arm straight up so that your hand breaks surface first and keep it above your head so that the crew of your dive boat can see you, to count all members of the dive party to surface THEN to go in and recover them.

Irrespective, on a known dive location the dive leader should always run the dive so that you enter the water and descend in a safe location and surface in a safe location (Best way of doing this to surface on a "Dan-Buoy" type marker clearly displaying the international code Alpha Flag)


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