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BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
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Subject: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,old guy Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:15 AM I watched Alawi, one of our few allies in the middle east speak to congress today and it was heartening. Within a half hour I watched Kerry saying that he was not telling the truth. Kerry is the one who constantly accuses Bush of being arrogant and alienating our allies. What a load of bullshit. I briefly entertained the thought of obtaining the domain kerryisanarrogantasshole.com Instead I am going to make my statement here. Bush is far from perfect but we know where he stands. Kerry is a total disaster who thinks the knows everything. He paints a picture of gloom and doom for the US and wants us to believe he can fix it if he is elected. Then if by some accident he is elected, he will proclaim he has fixed everything that was not broken to begin with. He is so transparent that only an idiot would vote for him. Also his wife is an even more arrogant bigger asshole. She is supported by a "big greedy corporation" that has most of it's operations offshore. The very thing that Kerry vows to fight. As for Mr Edwards, he is a "medical liability" lawyer of the type that is driving doctors out of practice and health care costs through the roof. Something else that Kerry vows to fight against. Maybe instead of going to war with North Korea, Syria or Iran we can just "sue the bastards" I have never seen such a conflicted mess in my life. The Democratic party has lost all professionalism and anybody that votes Democratic is a blind fool. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Boab Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:13 AM Well, well, Old Guy---so every body who disagrees with your convoluted reasoning is either an idiot, a blind fool, or both? To be perfectly frank, I'm amazed that such utter garbage can be seriously shed upon the public by someone who has actually learned English spelling! You are one up on your favoured candidate in that respect, I'd say. Why, by the way, [and you do have truth on your side here] do you think that Alawi is "one of your few allies in the middle east"? Mr Bush said plainly the other day that a "handful" of people were opposing the "democratisation' of Iraq. So why say "one of "our FEW allies"? Surely you contradict your "president"? I can confidently state that Mr Bush and cohorts have been responsible for the elimination of many "handfuls" of Iraqis---and by no means all of them resistance fighters, or of either the age or sex usually associated with such. You want to see another couple of "conflicted messes"? Look first at the bedlam in Iraq; then re-read your posting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:30 AM It isn't all that long since Saddam Hussein was "one of your few allies in the middle east", at the very time when he was committing some of his worst atrocities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: freda underhill Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:07 AM Allawi becomes Iraq's interim Prime Minister The outgoing Iraqi Governing Council (IGC) – a creation of the U.S. –announced Allawi's appointment as interim Prime Minister on May 29, 2004. Allawi's appointment was viewed as a move to pre-empt moves by the U.N and U.S. to draft someone seen as independent of the occupation forces. Since the handover of power to Allawi in late June, he has announced that a new internal intelligence agency would be created to undermine those behind the string of attacks on U.S and Iraqi forces. "We are determined to bring down all the hurdles that stand in the way of our democracy," Allawi told journalists announcing the new agency. [22] In mid-July, the Bagdad correspondent for the Sydney Morning Herald, Paul McGeogh, reported that two eye-witnesses stated that the week prior to the handover of power that Allawi had drawn a pistol and executed up to six people detained for suspected attacks on Iraqi and U.S forces. Allawi's office has denied that he had visited the Al-Amariyah security centre in Bagdad's suburbs or that he carried a gaun. U.S Ambassador to Iraq, John Negroponte, dismissed the claims without investigating them. [23] After the statements by the witnesses, McGeogh wrote of Allawi that his "every response to the Iraq mess is that of a hard man: he threatens martial law; he warns he might shut down sections of the media; he suggests he might delay elections. His Justice Minister is bringing back the death penalty; his Defence Minister warns he'll chop off insurgents' hands and heads." [24] http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Ayad_Allawi Paul McGeogh, a respected conservative Australian journalist, had to flee Iraq after publishing the witnesses statements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:28 AM Good point, McG! Tuirn the clock back 20 years and Alawi is Saddam... Just who elected either of them anyway, Old Guy? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Wesley S Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:16 AM Old Guy - What makes you think that ranting here will change anyones opinion about anything ? Insulting Kerry supporters is a waste of time. Stand up, walk away from the computer and get out of the house so you can campain for Bush. Then you might get something done. Of course that's just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:26 AM Old Guy is trolling for fish. Don't bite. Nice use of the word "conflicted" though. Ya need help across the street, fellow? Another old guy who thinks you are right about Kerry not being 'the second coming' but still twenty times better than Bush. Oooooooooo, that's gotta hurt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM "Bush is far from perfect but we know where he stands" yep, "waist deep in the Big Muddy" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:38 AM BBlush stands with both feet firmly planted in midair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:38 AM Bush . . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 04 - 09:43 AM The best part of Bush ran down his daddy's leg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:37 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 24 Sep 04 - 10:54 AM Kerry supporters can obviously dish it out but can't take it. How about some cheese with all your whine? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:10 AM Martin: What on earth are you referring to? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Midchuck Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:30 AM This list is crowded with people who have one belief in common: That one of the presidential candidates is an arrogant idiot, so we should vote for the other one. All of said people are right on the first point and wrong on the second. (IMO, obviously). Can't we get someone on the ticket running as a classical anarchist? Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:35 AM I haven't seen any response to the faults of Kerry, his wife or Edwards. All I see is rocks being thrown at Bush in the same manner as the rocks being thrown by Palestinian refugees in defense if Yassar Arafat. Bush has known faults. Kerry and his crew have unknown faults which are indicated by his back and forth statements, his gloom and doom outlook. his wifes interests and Edwards profession. Why the hell do people pick someone apart when they are trying to do their difficult job? Abe Lincoln said "don't change horses in the middle of the stream" We are in the middle of the stream where the water is rough but we are still moving. We should not try to change horses. I say put down the rocks for a minute and examine the Kerry ticket a little closer. You will find that he has many more faults already showing than Bush does. If you would study the actions and statements of John Kerry you will see that he changes his platform as required to get more votes. He has done sneaky things like negotiating to the an enemy that we are at war with in a foreign country without the knowledge or permission of his government. He publishes a book downing his country and his military and then makes statements that conflict with the book. This guy is one big smokescreen. Examine the list of corporations below that will influence the "Kerry administration" Do we want this Enron like conglomeration to be associated with the US government? Old Guy HEINZ-UFE LTD. Guangzhou, People's Republic of China Factory: Guangzhou Major Product Lines: cereals for infants. HEINZ COSCO Qingdao, People's Republic of China Factory: Qingdao HEINZ KOREA LTD. Established 1986 Inchon, South Korea Factory: Inchon HEINZ WIN CHANCE LTD. Bangkok, Thailand Factory: Bangplee HEINZ INDIA PRIVATE LIMITED Mumbai, India Factory: Aligarh/Bangalore PT HEINZ ABC INDONESIA Jakarta, Indonesia Factories: Daan Mogot, Jakarta; Karawang Timur; Pasuruan PT HEINZ SUPRAMA Surabaya, Indonesia Factory: Sidoarjo HEINZ UFC PHILIPPINES Manila, the Philippines Factories: Cabuyao Laguna; Davao City HEINZ HONG KONG LIMITED Wanchai, Hong Kong H.J. HEINZ COMPANY OF CANADA LTD North York, Ontario, Canada Factory: Leamington, Ontario OMSTEAD FOODS LIMITED Wheatley, Ontario, Canada Factory: Wheatley, Ontario ALIMENTOS HEINZ C.A. Caracas, Venezuela Factory: San JoaquÃn DISTRIBUIDORA BANQUETE, S.A. San José, Costa Rica Factory: San José H. J. HEINZ COMPANY LIMITED Middlesex, England JOHN WEST FOODS LIMITED Liverpool, England H. J. HEINZ FROZEN & CHILLED FOODS LIMITED Dublin, Ireland and Hayes, Middlesex, England H. J. HEINZ COMPANY (IRELAND) LIMITED Dublin, Ireland ETS. PAULET S.A.Douarnenez, France H. J. HEINZ FROZEN S.A.R.L. Paris, France HEINZ IBERICA S.A. Madrid, Spain IDAL Lisbon, Portugal HEINZ ITALIA S.r.l. Milan, Italy FATTORIA SCALDASOLE, S.p.a. Monguzzo, Italy COPAIS FOOD AND BEVERAGE COMPANY, S.A. Athens, Greece HEINZ POLSKA Sp. Z.O.O. Warsaw, Poland Factories: Poland: Miedzychód, Pudliszki, Wodzislaw; Russia: Georgievsk PUDLISZKI S.A. Pudliszki, Poland WODZISLAW, S.A. Wodzislaw, Poland MIEDZYCHOD S.A. Miedzychod, Poland HEINZ C.I.S. Moscow, Russia HEINZ GEORGIEVSK Georgievsk, Russia CAIRO FOOD INDUSTRIES SAE Cairo, Egypt HEINZ REMEDIA LIMITED Tel Aviv, Israel STAR-KIST FOOD D'OR LIMITED Haifa, Israel Factories: Germany: Seesen; Netherlands: Baarn, Elst, Giessen, Koog aan de Zaan, Nijmegen, Rijssen, Utrecht, Wormerveer H. J. HEINZ B.V. Elst, The Netherlands H. J. HEINZ BELGIUM S.A. Brussels, Belgium H. J. HEINZ GMBH Düsseldorf, Germany SONNEN BASSERMANN Seesen, Germany KONINKLIJKE DE RUIJTER BV The Netherlands HAK BV The Netherlands FOODMARK The Netherlands HONIG MERKARTIKELEN BV The Netherlands DRUKKERIJ DE GROENBOER The Netherlands EUROPEAN FOODSERVICE H. J. HEINZ COMPANY LIMITED Hayes Park, Hayes, Middlesex, England Factories: Rovereto, Italy; Telford, England HEINZ SINGLE SERVE LIMITED Hayes Park, Hayes, Middlesex, England SERV-A-PORTION Turnhout, Belgium Arimpex Industrie Alimentari S.R.L. Rovereto, Italy Comexo S.A. Chateaurenard, France H. J. HEINZ Southern Africa Johannesburg, South Africa H. J. HEINZ Gaborone, Botswana KGALAGADI SOAP INDUSTRIES Gaborone, Botswana Factory: Gaborone REFINED OIL PRODUCTS Gaborone, Botswana OLIVINE INDUSTRIES Harare, Zimbabwe CHEGUTU CANNERS (Pvt) LTD. Chegutu, Zimbabwe HEINZ SOUTH AFRICA (PTY) LTD. Johannesburg, South Africa HEINZ WELLINGTON'S (PTY) LTD. Wellington, South Africa Barvale; Benoni; Wellington HEINZ WATTIE'S AUSTRALASIA H. J. HEINZ COMPANY AUSTRALIA LTD. Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Factories: Dandenong; Northern Victoria (Echuca, Girgarre); Port Moresby, Papua, New Guinea; Wagga Wagga HEINZ SINGAPORE PTE. LTD. Republic of Singapore HEINZ WATTIE'S LIMITED Auckland, New Zealand Factories: Christchurch; Hastings TEGEL FOODS LTD. Newmarket, Auckland, New Zealand Factories: Processing, feedmilling and livestock operations at Christchurch, Auckland and New Plymouth/Feedmills at Levin, Mataura and Nelson/Value-adding plants at Chefs Boutique (Auckland) and Coq au Van (Wellington) HEINZ JAPAN LTD. Tokyo, Japan Last and least: HEINZ U.S.A. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Factories: Atlanta, Georgia; Cedar Rapids, Iowa; Chatsworth, California; Dallas, Texas; Escalon, California; Fremont, Ohio; Holland, Michigan; Irvine, California; Jacksonville, Florida; King of Prussia, Pennsylvania; Mason, Ohio; Muscatine, Iowa; Northbrook, Illinois; Pennsauken, New Jersey; Phoenix, Arizona; Stockton, California; Westburyport, Massachusetts THERMO PAC, INC. Stone Mountain, Georgia Factory: Stone Mountain, Georgia PORTION PAC, INC. Mason, Ohio Factories: Atlanta, Georgia; Chatsworth, California; Dallas, Texas; Jacksonville, Florida; Mason, Ohio QUALITY CHEF FOODS, INC. Cedar Rapids, Iowa Factory: Cedar Rapids, Iowa CHEF FRANCISCO, INC. PennsylvaniaFactory: King of Prussia, Pennsylvania ESCALON PREMIER BRANDS, INC.Escalon, California Factory: Escalon, California ALDEN MERRELL DESSERTS West Newburyport, Massachusetts Factory: West Newburyport, Massachusetts TODDS Factory: Irvine, California; Phoeniz, Arizona HEINZ FROZEN FOOD COMPANY Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Factories: Ft. Myers, Florida; Massillon, Ohio; Ontario, Oregon; Pocatello, Idaho; West Chester, Pennsylvania |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Don Firth Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:24 PM So? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:29 PM I haven't seen any response to the faults of Kerry, his wife or Edwards. You perceive faults. Supporters of Kerry and Edwards see strengths. Heinz the company has nothing to do with Mrs. Heinz, she's not part of the management or operation. Get your head out of the dark place you've shoved it, Old Guy. You only hear yourself from in there, and your source of information is incorrect. And think about it: Heinz catsup a rival for the power position of Haliburton? Give me a break! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:34 PM You're full of it, old guy. Teresa has nothing to do with those companies. She controls the philanthropic foundations established by her late husband, a Republican senator from Pennsylvania. Or as factcheck.org puts it: As the H.J. Heinz Company reports in its most recent proxy statement on file with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Heinz Kerry is not on the company's board of directors, nor is she listed among the principal shareholders (those who control 5% or more of the outstanding shares). The Heinz Endowments do own Heinz stock -- less than 4% of the company -- but income from that stock goes to charity, not to the Kerrys personally. The Heinz company also said it is "nonpartisan." Worth noting, however, is that the company's Political Action Committee has given nearly all its donations to Republican candidates, including $5,000 to the Bush campaign and nothing to Kerry's as of the most recent reports available. The TRUE merger of corporate and Executive power is going on the BUSH administration, the richest administration with the most former CEOs in history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:43 PM So what's wrong with having CEOs? They have experience at being leaders. do you think we should have folksingers instead? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:49 PM Only that it encourages corporate giveaways, MG. I don't have anything against having SOME CEOs, but too many CEOs, like too many generals, is an ominous sign that one sector of our society has too much influence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 24 Sep 04 - 01:02 PM Alawi is not our ally. He's our puppet. going to war with North Korea, Syria (and) Iran The Republican platform in a nutshell? But to be fair and balanced, I suspect the Democratic platform is probably not much different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 04 - 01:58 PM As to knowing where Bush stands, it falls along this wise: He stands for deception at his own convenience; he stands for unilateral exercise of force on commercial grounds, a form of bullying and banditry; he stands for arrogant failure to acknowledge error and the manipulation of any person or group in order to get his way, no matter what principle or which truths need to be trampled. He is an amoral, illiterate, pretentious, dissembling bullyragger. He might make a good dog-catcher. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:57 PM Carol C, I'd rather have a puppet instead of an enemy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,guest from NW Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:04 PM maybe it is better to have a puppet than an enemy, but it certainly is disingenuous to pretend that the puppet is an "ally" or leader of a "soverign government" wouldn't you say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: kendall Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:04 PM Opinions are like assholes, we all have one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:22 PM I can understand that sentiment, Martin. My point about his being a puppet is to address the idea expressed in the opening post of this thread, of the US being able to piss him off. Since he's our puppet, I don't think we really need to worry about that. He'll kiss our ass pretty much no matter what we do. Allies, on the other hand, are a different matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:59 PM Can somebody provide any facts on whether Alawi is a "puppet" or an "ally" or an "enemy". My understanding is that he was not our choice for interim prime minister, but was chosen by the interim coucil. The only gallup polling I have seen said that he was supported by 80% of the Iraq public- far higher than that of Kerry, Bush, Nader, Schroeder, or Chirac. Does anybody have any information to base your opinions on? It appears to me that the Kerry gloom and doom has spread throughout the democratic party. You can only hope for pessimism and defeat to gain power. What an uplifting message to win an election. PS: The exact same comments were made about Germany after wwII. Probably the same people writing them. PSS: The same people said there would never be an interim govt by June 30. As usual they were wrong. OH- it doesn't really count because they are puppets and not really an interim govt recognized by the arab community and UN. Or in the words of John Kerry- I actually voted for the interim govt before I voted against the interim govt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:16 PM Who appointed the interim council, the US government or the Iraqi people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:32 PM Who cares? Saddam is history and they are all better off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:04 PM some of 'them' are better off. Others of 'them' are dead and have little electricity and no jobs.....and 'we' have destabilized Iraq and have them vieing for the job Saddam held, despite the efforts of a few to hold elections. We shall see how THAT works. The world as a whole is NOT better off, due to the bass-akward way Bush went about ridding it of Saddam.... If he wins, I wonder what naughty regimé is next on his list? N. Korea?....naawww, those boys are scary--they HAVE WMDs! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:26 PM To the people defending Heinz: What is the connection between Haliburton and Cheney and how does it compare with the Heinz / Teresa Heinz Kerry connection? Does Heinz outsource? Is there another company that can do what Haliburton does? Why pick apart a company doing a difficult job. I never see Kerry supporters carrying there "shouldas" to the end. Should have let the inspectors do their job. Then what? Should not have gone to war in Iraq. Then what? What would be the current state of affairs in Iraq if the inspectors never found anything and we had never gone to war? Can any of you monday morning quarterbackers finish a chain of thought trough to a possible end outcome? The problem with Democratic supporters is that they don't think things through. They are too idealistic and not practical thinkers. A recently free press in Iraq publish a long list of names of people who received oil vouchers from Sadam during the oil for food program. They were like coupons that gave a discount on a certion amount of oil. They could be sold to oil traders in the lobby of the hotel where they were issued for millions of dollars. Officials of several US non coalition allies were on that list. One name was the UN administrator of the oil for food program. There were supporters of Al Qaeda on that list. Thus money that was skimmed from the Iraqui oil for food program ended and is still ending up in the hands of terrorists and in the pockets of officials of countries opposed to the war in Iraq. Does this make you think beyond the next rock you are about to hurl at Bush? Old Guy All |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 24 Sep 04 - 05:52 PM "Can any of you monday morning quarterbackers finish a chain of thought trough to a possible end outcome?" Yes, most can, Old Guy. However, it would likely not be the end you envision. It seems that for you Bush should be elected because the nation is on a horse in midstream and somehow Catsup and oil are equal in your mind. "What is the connection between Haliburton and Cheney and how does it compare with the Heinz / Teresa Heinz Kerry connection?" To answer this, it doesn't compare at all. The US did not invade Iraq to get strategic positioning for a tomato crop. And it's Mrs Kerry who has the Heinz connection. It is the VICE PRESIDENT who has the Haliburton connection. And he advises Bush, because Bush is too ill-informed to advise himself. See you Tuesday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:03 PM Tell ya what, Mertin, my friend: Given the complete clusterf**k that Bush has created in not only Iraq but the entire MiddleEast, I'd rather have the old puppet still in control than the new one who without a perminent US military presence can't prevent an all out civil war in Iraq. Yeah, Saddam mighta been a bad man but he was our bad man until the US demoted him from puppet/friend to puppet/bad man. All he ever wanted from the US was an occasional visit from a cabinet member and a pat on the back. Any US president since Gulf I could have picked up the phone and had Saddam in his back pocket but that wouldn't have played well to the neocons who would have turned on that president. Now we have a new puppet and an occupation which is looking more and more like Vietnam every day. As fir folks not hearing about the negatives of John Kerry? Give me a break. The Repub media and the Repubs themselves pound on Kerry on a dily basis. What I find funny is they start out sayin' that Kerry is the most consistent liberal in the Senate and then call him a flip-flopper??? Go figure??? Don't take the Wes Ginny Slide Rule to see that these two positions are opposite so one of them must be a lie. Hmmmmm? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM The difference is this: Cheyney's job before being vice president: CEO of Halliburton Teresa's connection to Heinz: she was married to a guy who was descended from the founder of the company, but never worked for the company or owned it. She has, essentially, NO connection to Heinz as a company, except that some of the foundations she runs have a tiny bit of stock in heinz among their portfolios. You're either ignorant or dishonest, old guy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:25 PM Who cares? If I were to guess about who cares, I would guess that the Iraqi people care. And I think I would let the Iraqi people be the ones to decide whether or not they consider themselves to be better off. Isn't that what "spreading democracy" is supposed to mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 24 Sep 04 - 06:30 PM "What would be the current state of affairs in Iraq if the inspectors never found anything and we had never gone to war?" well, what would be the state of Japan if we hadn't bombed them? What would be the state of Germany if it hadn't been so cold on the Russian front in '43?...who knows? We simply can't answer rhetorical question like that. EVERYONE knows by now that the way this war was planned and conducted was a mistake, but Bush totally refuses to do anything but blather about "staying the course"....like Vietnam, perhaps? Until he has to resort to a draft? Until we have offended the last ally and the last 3 Muslims who were supporting us? Until soldiers flatly refuse to go over there and be blown up, not by other soldiers, but by guys in old cars who simply don't LIKE us being in the country? "What if they gave a war, and nobody came?" I DO know that we'd have about $100,000,000,000 more in the bank and 10s of thousands fewer bodies (some ours, some theirs...some with heads, some without). Kerry has been in a war....I suspect he can answer some of my questions better than our fearless sometime National Guard member... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Sep 04 - 07:54 PM Hitler "stayed the course" in Russia too...have you ever yet heard any politician admit that a war he launched was a mistake? You never will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM . . . and once upon a time in the Sahara Forest . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:15 PM Giest 5:26 we have no reason to believe that anything would have changed in Iraq if it had not been invaded- Saddam would have continued on the way he'd been doing for 30 years and another couple hundred of Iraqis would have died through his whims. The difference is that 1,030 Amereicans would not have sprayed their life's blood on Iraqi soil, thousands of Americans would not be mourning the loss of their husbands, wives, children and parents, thousands more of Iraqis would still be alive, there still might not be reliable electricity and water but the buildings in Iraq would be intact and most Iraqi families would be able to ignore their leader's foibles in the mundane pursuit of their daily lives. And the USA would not be held in righteous contempt by most of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: kendall Date: 25 Sep 04 - 04:47 AM If there is a more arrogant asshole in this world than Bush, point him out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Sep 04 - 07:00 AM look I've been following this tedious argument of insidious intent for a few weeks now. Its quite obvious both sides can't argue without descending to the level of abuse. So heres a constructive idea. Choose the one with the longest willy to be president.. You could place bets on the outcome and do a telethon fundraiser from maddison square gardens. maddonna as the referee. If its a dead heat you could do an eliminator rounds , who can pee the highest, and who could do the longest turd, the loudest fart. Till you get a worthy winner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Al Prufrock Date: 25 Sep 04 - 07:43 AM Hey-a T S Elliot fan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:36 AM Like I said, Kerry supporters do not have the capability of following their proposed course of action through to the end. They cannot support Kerry except by attacking Bush. Where is the oil to be consumed going to come from 10 and 20 years from now? No one has denied that Kerry is an arrogant asshole that alienate US allies and snuggles up with our enemies and non allies. I assert that the Democratic Party's constant negativity on the war in Iraq is costing American lives, The Democrats know it but they do not care. They do not care if American casualties are higher if it helps them get elected. They want to win at any cost. If the American people would show a unified commitment to the war against terrorism the violence would abate sooner. No doubt the responses to his will be attack on Bush and not a defense of Kerry. Lets hear How Kerry will do the job. Something besides Kerry will do a better job. How will he do a better job. What will be the end results if Kerry is elected? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:55 AM Old Guy: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:03 PM No one has denied that Kerry is an arrogant asshole that alienate US allies and snuggles up with our enemies and non allies. I deny it. Those statements are false, distorted and misleading. In fact I would suspect arrogant assholery to be the nature of anyone who would forward such transparent and patently contrived propoganda. How desperate do you have to be to go to such immopral extremes. As for arrogance, I would suggest that overthrowing our commitments to our fellow nations (Tokyo), spiting and humiliating the United Nations, unilateral warfare and continuous deception of the American populace all qualify as extremely arrogant. I would say that attacking a genuine fighting man with a genuine war record on false and distorted grounds concerning his war record is extremely arrogant. I would say that to do so while one has, oneself, fled every physical confrontation and avoided military saervice to be not only arrogant but hypocritical and immoral. And you would vote for this? I wouldn't by a used car from this arrogant flaming Resident asshole. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Denny Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:14 PM The USA must examine carefully what it terms it's allies and not confuse the term with "friends". Countries such as Canada and Mexico are the closest friends that the USA has but stand apart from you in this conflict. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Remember Viet Nam.......... If Kerry is an asshole, and that may be so, remember that an asshole is necessary to control the flow of shit. At this time there is little flow control from the White House! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Chris Green Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:26 PM 1) "Kerry is a total disaster who thinks he knows everything." Bush, however, is a total disaster who patently knows nothing. If I were an American I know which one I'd vote for. 2) "If the American people would show a unified commitment to the war against terrorism the violence would abate sooner." With the greatest of respect to your advancing years, my dear sir, bollocks!I can't work out why people like you haven't learned by now THAT YOU CANNOT DECLARE WAR ON A NOUN! "The war on terrorism" is yet another soundbite put out by those in power to make us believe that they are doing something when in fact they are doing sweet effay. Witness "the war on drugs", "the war on poverty" etc. Look around you, man! Have they worked? It would appear not.... 3) "Who cares? Saddam is history and they are all better off." Apart from, presumably, the poor little sod who had both his arms blown off in the air raid at the start of the war and the thousands of Iraqi civilians who are now pushing up daisies. Oh, and the allied troops that have been killed. And the hostages who've been beheaded. I'd be interested to learn how you arrived at this asinine conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: kendall Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM So, we should all get behind Bush and loudly declare that he is doing the right thing even though most of us know he is dead wrong? What kind of lunacy is that? President Johnson kept sending our people to their deaths in Viet Nam even when he KNEW the war was lost! He admitted it to McNamara, and it was on tape. I will be damned if I will support this asshole in Iraq. He is DEAD FRIGGIN' WRONG. "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" is not just a tired old saying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:28 PM all together now, sing it |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:34 PM "Those who don't learn from old sayings are doomed to repeat them." :-) And they frequently do so in order to support an already spurious line of reasoning! The average tired old saying, in fact, can be trotted out with equal facility by people on EITHER side of a fierce debate...and frequently is. It's very silly, but that won't stop people from doing it. Example: "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." That saying can be used to justify invading Iraq (by referring to the onetime need to fight Nazi Germany)...OR...to support the idea of not invading Iraq (by referring to the debacles suffered in numerous unsuccessful wars of occupation, such as the Vietnam War or Britain's onetime occupation of Iraq, which failed miserably). Blah! Blah! Blah! That's about all these old sayings amount to when they issue from the mouth of a biased person with an ax to grind. They're like a gun. Anyone can pick it up and aim it in any direction he wants to. Doesn't prove a darned thing about who's right and who isn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Denny Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:51 PM I'll try then to explain this without the old cliche . If you take a polecat by the throat, holding him while you blast him away with a 12 guage shotgun, you will kill the polecat. However, you may also have blown off a few fingers and made one hell of a stinking mess. You then demand of your friends that they are expected to help clean up after your action. In retrospect, you have killed the damn polecat, but the cost was high in fingers and friends and the woods are still full of polecats. Now what do you do. To continue to kill polecats using this tried and proven method may not be the best plan. Anyone short of a total idiot would search for another way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:58 PM LOL! Agreed, Denny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:17 PM And, Little Hawk, I prefer jOhn's 'Blar Blar Blar'. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: DMcG Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:20 PM Like I said, Kerry supporters do not have the capability of following their proposed course of action through to the end. They cannot support Kerry except by attacking Bush. Where is the oil to be consumed going to come from 10 and 20 years from now? Are you saying, Old Guy, that you believe this war was about oil, then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:21 PM Dueling Bouzoukis, With all due respect, your profound insight about war has been obscured by a grammatical confusion of some importance. There is no reason you cannot declare war against a noun -- Germany, Japan, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics are all nouns. The Taliban is a noun. But to declare a war that can never be won, try declaring war on a condition such as drugs, badness, irritability, fanaticism, terrorism, left-handedness, or liberalism. No go. Conditions have no center. They have no concrete thing to define when a war begins or ends. Grammatically, these words are all nouns (or noun-like) but they cannot be the object of a meaningful declaration of hostilities. The reason, of course, is that the set is completely unbounded and could range from 1 to an infinite number of persons, animals, objects, etc. which subscribe to the condition. Attributes and conditions do not fight. Only a flatulent idiot would try to declare war on one!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:25 PM Old Guy, It may be that attacking Bush is very much part of their plan of action, since he deserves to be attacked. They may be following through perfectly well on a plan to bring down Bush by supporting Kerry, in the absence of anyone better. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:40 PM Standing right up to the tyranous twit Is a Kerry a-wearing his mask and a mit But fielding the liars' 'down the line' fouls Takes sequitor patience, not svinctorless bowels... For gone are the rules, the economy's wasted The courts are now stacked, the liberals... baisted Now nothing is sacred, but bullying means As the totallitarian tweeks what he gleans Neo-cons righteously plan dirty tricks While'st hiding immorals betwixt nervous ticks Their 'Christians' aslapping your studious cheeks Much prefer boneheads to farthinking geeks As sabotauge reigns 'or their 'mood for the day' 'sBeen week after week, Tis still no fair play Bankrupting the country is no more fair game Than what thugs in the thirties, did for their fame Kerry's got guts, to stand strong in this storming His backbone is sturdy, 'sresolve is heartwarming Liars don't flip-flop, they just escape doubt By 'staying the course', no reason's about 'Lowering the bar' is is a cultural flop Opening minds is our path to the top The Bush White House plunders wellbeing for gain While most of us want to start over again... The distigushing factors, their dubious gain From an impluse to hurt, and to cause others pain And this fine reward is for coveting riches You know the kind... the boylymen bitches... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 25 Sep 04 - 06:16 PM Saddam is history and they are all better off Particularly the thousands upon thousands of dead ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:05 PM Like I said, Kerry supporters do not have the capability of following their proposed course of action through to the end. They cannot support Kerry except by attacking Bush. (No rebuttal except attacks on Bush) Where is the oil to be consumed going to come from 10 and 20 years from now? (No answer except for a question) No one has denied that Kerry is an arrogant asshole that alienate US allies and snuggles up with our enemies and non allies. (one denial, one areement and a guess so) (no response on Kerrys friendlyness with non allies and enemys except for a question about the definition of same) I assert that the Democratic Party's constant negativity on the war in Iraq is costing American lives, The Democrats know it but they do not care. They do not care if American casualties are higher if it helps them get elected. They want to win at any cost. (absolutely no response to this so it must be true) If the American people would show a unified commitment to the war against terrorism the violence would abate sooner. (no rebuttal except for an english lesson. Call it anti-jihad or whatever but it is the act of eliminating terrorists) No doubt the responses to his will be attack on Bush and not a defense of Kerry. (The only support of Kerry was that bush is worse) Lets hear How Kerry will do the job. Something besides Kerry will do a better job. How will he do a better job. What will be the end results if Kerry is elected? (I didn't see a thing about what Kerry is going to do) What would be the current state of affairs in Iraq if the inspectors never found anything and we had never gone to war? (The only responses were that all the things that happened since then would not have happened. Very logical. Would the US and the UK still be flying over the north and south of Iraq and being shot at while trying to enforce a UN resolution? Would Sadam still be skimming money from the oid for food program, building palaces with bunkers while Iraqis suffer? Would there still be money skimmed from the oid for food program endin up in the hands terrorist groups? Would officials and businessmen from Russia, France Germany and the UN still be lining there pockets with money skimmed from the oil for food program? Would Sadam still be seeking nukes and other WMDs? Would Sadam still be torturing and murdering thousands of civilians every year?) This is all food for thought. People seem to have forgotten how it was before we toppled the Sadam regime. They seem to be redirecting their anger towards Bush. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: katlaughing Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM Thanks, BillD, for the great rendition of Big Muddy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Denny Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:22 AM Judging from the way that"Old Guy" analizes the response to his original post it would seem that he has about as much grey matter as his illustrious leader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM I think the communication problem between many posters on this thread and Old Guy is that Old Guy seems to think he gets to define all of the parameters of what's what. Since most of the posters to this thread don't seem to accept Old Guy's parameters, he thinks they haven't responded to his points or questions, when in fact, they have, only according to their own parameters (and definitions) of what's what. Old Guy, I am not a Kerry supporter, but I find that I do not accept any of your basic premises as you've stated them here in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM *grin*...and it gets deeper everyday. Old guy...I'm too sleepy to explain right now how your 'questions' are rhetorical devices which assume an answer in their very formulation....you sound like Joe Scarborough and Rush Limbaugh.... maybe tomorrow... (and the ex-ruler of Iraq is Saddam, with *2* Ds)....no, it is not that important in itself, but it is the kind of error often made by those who don't care for accuracy in other things) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:45 AM Here's a question I can answer: Where is the oil to be consumed going to come from 10 and 20 years from now? 20 years from now, petroleum will already be well on its way to becoming obsolete as a major source of energy for the US and the rest of the world, if it is not already completely obsolete by that time. So the question is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Plus, I can't really see what the question has to do with whether or not Kerry is an arrogant asshole anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:46 AM I reject your explicit and imp[licit assertions, Old Guy. I have already explained why. You have dismissed my explanation. I suggest you are projecting -- who aside from the administration did not care about the blood spilled in Iraq? I don't think there has ever been a war so widely protested against and undertaiken in spite of the protestations. Give me one feggin' break. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Denny Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:54 AM ................and in light of all that: I am sure that Old Guy will see my last comment as a compliment while others would see it as an insult. In truth I am a Canadian who knows dick all about Kerry, but I have seen enough of Bush to determine his spot in the lower anatomy. Not only is he an asshole but also a moron, and in such a powerfull position that is a danger to the whole damn world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:54 AM Old Guy: It's obvious you are a troll because you haven't been around long enough to know we have had several threads in the last few weeks of good things about Kerry and why his supporters want him to win, that have nothing to do with attacking Bush. Forgive us for not re-posting everything we wrote in those threads here, but your obnoxious way of asking the question makes us feel it's not worth the effort. When you come in to our forum here, saying "none of you ever address this issue," when we have in fact had whole threads on it, you show that you may in fact be an arrogant asshole yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:08 AM OK, old guy... I guess my 'fridge magnet' poetry doesn't do it for you then... ;^) I'll be more direct. Staying the course. If you remember, the wepons inspectors were 'the course' back before the war, and almost all of the world's industrial powers were wholly behind them... and Saddam was under the ire and scrutiny of the world. The US was the recipient of a declaration of war by Al Qaida, and we were attacked by Al Qaida. The US is at war with the terrorist network Al Qaida... George Bush did not stay the course in this war with Al Qaida. He changed the subject to Iraq, and diverted billions of dollars of taxpayer money (one billion a week, these days) and hundereds of thousands of military personel to a dangerous and angry Iraq. Many Countries around the world have since stopped giving us their ungrudging support, and the US is 'going it alone', for the most part... because of Bush's cavalier attitude towards the waging of an unprecidented (and unnecessary for the purpose of US national security) preemptive war. Contractors from all over the world submitted bids for the renovation and rebuilding of Iraq... but the overwhelming majority of them were turned away without any consideration. This did not encourage any multinational support either... and just flat out pissed off a lot of our allies. If we are to encourage Democracy in a country that has never know it, war is the least likely method to be successful. Punitive sanctions are also ineffective... and the rise of fascism in '30's Germany is arguably the result of such measures. Kerry understands these things, and this is why I support him wholeheartedly. In order to bring about a Democracy from the ashes of tyranny, the world must democratically be involved in the process, and the lasting relationships needed for a healthy Capitalist market system can begin their development.. A Democracy needs to be created from within the social structures of the country... and cannot be imposed by one isolated superpower... It just doesn't work that way. The only real chance Iraq has for Democracy, is through the honest and well intentioned efforts of a world wide coalition... The shared efforts of multinational cooperation can stimulate it's own reflection in the new Iraqi society base. Also, a broad well supported coalition... with shared initiatives, goals, and peacekeeping efforts... diffuses the hatred directed towards the US. Not only will the US have to play by the rules... thereby engendering less selfrighteous anger in Iraqis... but also, and moreso, the many powerful Democracies around the world are an awesome force when they band together... way more than the sum of their military mights. Kerry understands this. Bush seems to be allergic to it. ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:12 AM "in the absence of anyone better" Expalins my whole point. No one is questioning the suitability of Kerry as President. The Kerry supporters are ABBs anybody but Bush people. Examine Kerrys record. What is his kikely course of actions to run the US? You can't tell because he changes his position often. When he was up against Dean He was pro war because dean was anti war. Now he is pro war. He takes whateve4r position he thinks is necessary to get elected. Then what? WIll he win the support of the Russians, Chinese, French or Germans? Schoder has already said no. Please remember that these countrys an contractors from these countys were all benefiting from money skimmed off of the oil for food program by Saddam. Then After the invasion they wanted to profit from the rebuilding. Where is the oil going to come from in the near future before it becomes obsolete? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:30 AM Old Guy: The question of where oil is going to come from is no rationalization for the invasion of Iraq unless you believe that unilateral warmongering to grab desirable real estate is still a defensible policy among nations. Most people think it went out of fashion several hundred years ago, more or less. As for suitability, if the choice is really between George Bush and John Kerry, I would imagine that Kerry's leadership ability is as well proven as Bush's ever was, and more than it was before he bullied his way into the White House. Since that time Bush has demonstrated the leadership style of a bully. I think it only reasonable to see whether Kerry can do better and certainly see no reason to expect he cannot. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:00 PM If we make an effort to conserve our oil resources instead of wasting them irresponsibly as we are doing now, we won't need to send our sons and daughters to fight and die in countries like Iraq for our right to drive Hummers. That's one thing I think Kerry would do better than Bush. If I were the president, the first thing I would do would be to go out and buy a hybrid car and encourage all patriotic Americans to do the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:20 PM The question of where the oil is going to come from is purely that. Have you thought about it. I am worried about what will happen when terrorist regimes are in control of the majority of oil producing nations. Oil will be held as ransom and the world will suffer terribly, economically for however long it takes to switch to different energy sources. Bush wants to plant a seed of Democracy in the middle east in hopes that it will spread to the neighboring countrys. Syria and Iran are fueling the insurgency. Americans that are against the war are inadvertently helping them. This is also prolonging the war and causing more American casualties. Bush had the guts to do something about the Saddam problem. Most Americans were gung ho until the various Democratic candidates started picking bush's efforts apart. Somehow they have made Bush the villain and redirected our hatred from Saddam to him. If people would do a little searching on what has been uncovered so far in the investigation of the corruption in the oil for food program, it might open their eyes a little. It shows that the countries that were most involved in the corruption were the one that were most opposed to removing Saddam. It also shows how some of that money ended up in the hands of terrorist organizations. The reason I posted this topic to begin with is because I saw Kerry arrogantly saying that Alawi was not telling the truth. I pissed me off something fierce. Here is this person that is asking people to vote for him trying to drown any hope that democracy might succeed in Iraq and doing it solely for the purpose of being elected. He paints a picture of gloom and doom and that is what he will bring to the American people. I am not trying to repalce peoples thought with my own. I am trying to stimulate people into thinking deeper into the future and make sure they are drawing the right conclusions. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:32 PM I just wish Blair, Bush and Howard and all their followers/friends would just shut up, and leave the rest of us in peace. Because Blair/Bush and Howard don't want peace in the world. I know that bastard that ruled Iraq is gone, and that's a good thing, how could you vote for Blair for example and yet be members of the CND, or Bush or Howard and want world peace when all they want is war. It's either one or the other, you can't serve two masters. Go on Kerry I hope you win and get that shit Bush out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:39 PM "Go on Kerry I hope you win and get that shit Bush out." So what is Kerry going to do? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:57 PM Whatever he does, he will be a LOT more open than Bush was, a lot more honest, and a lot less owned by high-dollar corporate interests. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:18 PM "Whatever he does, he will be a LOT more open than Bush was, a lot more honest, and a lot less owned by high-dollar corporate interests." Can you be a little more specific? This underscores my point about Kerry supporters. Their main reason for voting for Kerry is Kerry is not Bush. Bush has a lot of faults. I don't like his support of illegal aliens. I don't like his tax cut for the top income earners and some other things but I do like his overall strategy on defeating terrorism. Terrorism is our most immediate problem right now. We should support him in this and raise hell with him to change his position on the others. Kerry does not comment on the illegal alien situation because he needs Hispanic votes. He vows to increase taxes on the wealthy which I am in favor of but I suspect with him and his wife being in that category that this is an election strategy that will not become reality. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:29 PM No Offense, Old Guy... but you sound a lot like a scratchy old 45 of Duke Ellington to me... ;^) Stand up and be counted... and don't let 'em spoon feed you anymore! Good Luck! ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:36 PM Old Guy, the idea is to eliminate our dependance on oil altogether. Then we won't have to worry about hostile countries using it as a weapon against our economy. We can drastically reduce our dependance on Middle Eastern oil right now if we start using common sense conservation measures. And that would be the truly 'conservative' thing to do. What Mr. Bush and his oil buddies are doing is to promote the most wasteful oil consumption practices possible because it makes them even more obscenely wealthy than they already are. They don't care whether or not my son gets sent to Iraq to get killed in the process of securing Iraqi oil resources, as long as they continue to get richer in the process. None of this is necessary. We are already in a position to be able to drastically reduce our dependance on foriegn sources of oil, right now. We have the technology. All we need to do is to do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 26 Sep 04 - 03:53 PM One of the things that electing John Kerry will do is bring a whole different crowd of people into government. Have you noticed that thinking people attract thinking people? Have you ever taken note of the fact that people who are willng to look outside their own prejudices and people who are action-oriented, quick-answer re-actors tend not to have much in common? Cowboy Bush, with his simplistic 'bring 'em on' mentality has been an excellent foil for mission-driven, power-mad people intent on re-making the world into the model they perceive as being the best platform for "their kind". To them, a great deal of money will never be enough; to them, a great deal of power will never be enough; to them, the only ones who really matter are their own kind. T'row da bums out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:14 PM Ketchup--Oil Ketchup--Oil I wonder which side has more personal investment to protect. And I wonder why the Old Guy confuses Mrs Kerry with Mr Kerry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,peedeecee Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:21 PM The old guy said upthread "why change horses in midstream?" Because the country is drowning, idiot, and your embarrassment-in-chief, with a big greedy grin on his face, rode his braying ass directly into that stream, where the current is fastest and the water is deepest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:37 PM Bush's approach to defeating terrorism was to attack a nation that was not engaged in the support of terrorism internationally, Iraq, and to fail to defeat the one network idfentified as having a key role in international terrorism, Al Quaeda. It was Bush and Company's arm-waving about Iraq, and not Iraq itself, that frightened Americans and got them to support war on false pretenses. See any thing treacherous about that? I do. In attacking Afghanistan we intelligently used local uprisings to overthrow the Taliban, and we did catch some al Quaeda members here ands there. But we SURE as hel didn't get no six billion dollars worth of damn results in attacking terrorism, no two ways about that. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:05 PM "Americans that are against the war are inadvertently helping them. This is also prolonging the war and causing more American casualties." That is a lie; it's a device to use fear to supress dissent. "Bush had the guts to do something about the Saddam problem. Most Americans were gung ho until the various Democratic candidates started picking bush's efforts apart. Somehow they have made Bush the villain and redirected our hatred from Saddam to him." Well, I thought "bait & switch" even before I heard any Democratic candidates remarks. And the Saddam problem was no more pressing than the Korea problem. Or the Iran problem. A preventative war -- attacking a country because of what they might possibly do -- is essentially lynch law. We were obviously more of a threat to Iraq than they were to us; would that have justified an Iraq attack on the US? Where's Osama? clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:53 PM But to say something positive: If Kerry doesn't do anything it'll be an improvement. Bush has done nothing but damage. If he can undo some of Bush's damage, that'll be fine, and if he can do some good it'll be superb. As the years go by I see more and more to admire in Eisenhower. There's a lot to be said for a president who doesn't do any damage. Cheated on his wife, of course. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:34 PM The story goes that in Europe during the war, Eisenhower had an affair and was serious enough about it to tell his superior that he was planning to get a divorce so he could marry her. It was his superior who told him he'd halt his career cold if he dis something so rash. Soldiers, prospectors, prisoners- I don't blame any of them if they don't stay 'true' to their loved one at home. That really is one time when it has nothing to do with her. IMO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 27 Sep 04 - 01:24 AM Okay, Old Guy. If you want to see why people like Kerry, see this thread. Like I said, we've done this before, and just because you come in here and say "you're not being specific enough," "you have nothing to say," etc., we aren't going to re-type everything we've already written. So here, read already! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 27 Sep 04 - 02:07 AM If Kerry does such and such is not enough to make me want to vote for him. Nobody can tell what he will do because he does not take a firm stand on anything. He is for and against everything. He kisses the ass of everybody just to get elected and then what? I know what bush will do so I am voting for him. He had the guts to do something about Afghanistan and Saddam. Kerry has the guts to put down his own country and his own military. He also has the guts to be for the war and against the war 6 months later. Again I ask about the corruption in the oil for food program. It put money in the hands of terrorist organizations. This corruption would still be channeling money to them if Saddam had not been removed from power. Therefore the invasion of Iraq was a necessary part of the war on terrorism. Now how about Iran an N Korea. Yes they are a threat. Should we have attacked all three Axis of Evil nations at once? Should Korea have been attacked before Iraq? Or maybe Iran first? If we should not attack any of them why are the antiwar people asking about attacking Iran and Korea? An attack on either or no attacks at all would have brought protests too so why try to play a popularity contest? Just blow the bastards that want to kill us away and the rest of the Arab world will show us respect like Qaddafi. Part of the war plan in Iraq was to use local uprisings to overthrow Saddam but it did not work out that way. It seems we left the people that were uprising in the last war with their ass hanging out and they did not trust us this time. Plus the war planners were mislead by one Mr Chalabi, a lying thief who is only after money. It was a total mistake to believe his line of bullshit. Is this transition to being independent on oil is supposed to happen overnight? I think the transition would be over a 20 year period at least. Are jetliners supposed to fly with rubber bands for engines? How about heating and electrical generation? Are we to burn wood for heat? Nobody wants nuclear power plants because of the risk and disposing of the waste. We can't drill for oil in Alaska. We can't cut down trees for firewood. What the hell is the answer except to try to stabilize the middle east? I don't think Kerry has a magic wand that will do the job and no plan that I have heard except "working with foreign leaders" that are dead set against working with the US and specifically him. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 27 Sep 04 - 02:28 AM "Kerry has the guts to put down his own country and his own military. He also has the guts to be for the war and against the war 6 months later." And this to a man who donned his country's uniform, repeatedly putting his life in danger. And you are FOR a man who stayed stateside and didn't even fulfill the commitment he had made in order to do so. As a man once said, 'At long last, Sir, have you no decency?' "This corruption would still be channeling money to them if Saddam had not been removed from power. Therefore the invasion of Iraq was a necessary part of the war on terrorism." Ah ha! One more reason for invading Iraq! "I know what bush will do so I am voting for him." I too know what he does so I am NOT voting for him. "Just blow the bastards that want to kill us away and the rest of the Arab world will show us respect like Qaddafi." You've watched too many movies. "Plus the war planners were mislead by one Mr Chalabi, a lying thief who is only after money. It was a total mistake to believe his line of bullshit." Chalabi was believed by your Mr. bush to the tune of $3000.00 plus per month. It was the bush who made the 'mistake'. "What the hell is the answer except to try to stabilize the middle east?" It isn't working too well, is it. One more time: you cannot force democracy upon ANYBODY. If it doesn't come from within, it's not democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:05 AM "Should we have attacked all three Axis of Evil nations at once? Should we have attacked all three Axis of Evil nations at once? Should Korea have been attacked before Iraq? Or maybe Iran first? "If we should not attack any of them why are the antiwar people asking about attacking Iran and Korea?" In my case, it is to point out that it's dumb to attack any of them. Our business is with Osama, who is behind 9/11. First things first. The other three nations have no connection with 9/11. Mr Bush, among others, said so. Osama is still running loose and we are militarily overextended. We should have hunted him out of his hole, dead or alive, as some bigmouth once said. But we got switched to a vanity war by an administration that played upon our fears and patriotism. And those three countries are not an Axis. That's propaganda. And this is a futile post. The Old Guy is not going to think outside the official line and too many of us have lost our tempers, including me and Old Guy. clint (probably an even Older Guy) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:00 AM Apparently UBL is in a hole in Pakistan. The US cannot hunt him in that country but thank God Musharif has the guts to try to find him like the other top Al Quaeda members they have found. So Bush is a failure because he hasn't found UBL? The majority of people in the military and in the white house believed Chalabi so Bush is a failure? Did anybody see the PBS documentary in July 11, 2002 called "Saddam's Ultimate Solution" about all of the evidence pointing to Saddam's support of Alquaeda and his WMDs? It was narrated by Clinton State Department spokesman James Rubin. Even Bill Clinton has said he believed Saddam had WMD's but everybody tries to put the sole responsibility on Bush. Let's admit it. We believed he had them. Many of us were saying "screw the slow bumbling UN inspectors, let's go in and get him now" The same congressmen that are calling bush a liar now had access to the same intelligence that Bush had. Now we need to use Bush as a scape goat. I still have not seen anything about what Kerry will do except something different from what Bush is doing. I for one do not need an asshole like Kerry telling me what to think. I can think independently of the lynch mob. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:10 AM I for one did not believe it and thought the inspections program should have been extended. So mind who you are lumping into "we all believed" crap. If Bush ever gets tried for war crimes, I will be on hand to collect my "Toljaso" points. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:11 AM On February 17, 1998, President Clinton, speaking at the Pentagon, warned of the "reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals." These "predators of the twenty-first century," he said, these enemies of America, "will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq." Later that spring, the Clinton Justice Department prepared an indictment of Osama bin Laden. The relevant passage, prominently placed in the fourth paragraph, reads: Al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 27 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM The operative clause, as you know, GUEST, is "will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen." We did not allow that to happen. Bush's surrogates told us it HAD happened, and we had to go to war over it. Now even THEY have admitted that it didn't happen. Your quote from the last paragraph really shows how weak the connection was. They reached an understanding that Al Qaeda would not overthrow Saddam...wow, they must have been bestest friends, GUEST! They also said that they might work together in the future on weapons development. The problem is that later intelligence shows thay did NOT work together, and that Al Qaeda's overtures to Saddam were essentially rebuffed. So all you have remaining from Clinton's indictment is that Al Qaeda didn't try to overthrow Saddam. Strong evidence, GUEST! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:29 PM Hey, Old Guy, my main worry is that if Kerry does get into office, he WON'T do anything substantially different from what Bush is doing! What the hell, they are both financed by the same basic interests (US banks and major corporations). Why would Kerry do anything much different from Bush? His backers wouldn't allow him to. Bush and Kerry are the latest two figureheads of the same gigantic snake. Your 2 party system is a farce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:40 PM I can't resist. Sorry. "Apparently UBL is in a hole in Pakistan. The US cannot hunt him in that country... So Bush is a failure because he hasn't found UBL?" Yes. UBL's the main man behind 9/11. Bush made a big brag about hunting him out of his hole. The US couldn't hunt him in Pakistan, but we could hunt him in Iraq? Come on. "The majority of people in the military and in the white house believed Chalabi so Bush is a failure?" Yes. Even here in the backwoods I read about Chalabi's history long before he crashed. "Let's admit it. We believed he had them. Many of us were saying "screw the slow bumbling UN inspectors, let's go in and get him now" " Many of us weren't. Check the posts in this forum, for example. "I still have not seen anything about what Kerry will do except something different from what Bush is doing." Sounds good to me. "I for one do not need an asshole like Kerry telling me what to think. I can think independently of the lynch mob." You don't need an asshole like Kerry OR an asshole like Bush telling you what to think. Nor an asshole like me. Nobody does. Find what facts you can & don't be afraid to change your mind. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 27 Sep 04 - 04:09 PM "... don't be afraid to change your mind." good advice, Clint. Situations change, and a mind that will not re-evaluate is a closed mind.---Yet Kerry is ridiculed for thinking and re-thinking, while Bush is PRAISED? for grabbing one position and concept and holding onto it for dear life while fluid situations swirl about him.... I'd much rather have a leader who will pay attention to what IS happening than one who tries to MAKE everything work according to his pre-concieved ideas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:00 PM "Kerry is ridiculed for thinking and re-thinking" He thought he was 5 miles into Cambodia on Christmas of 1968 then he rethought it and he was actually in Sa Dec, 50 miles away from Cambodia. Then after a third rethink he was near Cambodia. "I think we clearly have to keep the pressure on terrorism globally. This doesn't end with Afghanistan by any imagination. And I think the president has made that clear. I think we have made that clear. Terrorism is a global menace. It's a scourge. And it is absolutely vital that we continue, for instance, Saddam Hussein." "I agree completely with this administration's goal of a regime change in Iraq" "I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." "Democratic primary rival Howard Dean said the world was not safer with Saddam out of power. Kerry strongly disagreed. Anybody who believes that, Kerry said, doesn't "have the judgment to be president." It is nice to have a man that you can believe running for President. Would Osama vote for Kerry or Bush? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:28 PM Kerry is like any good Republican or Democrat...he says whatever he thinks is expedient at the time. They all do. Sometimes it comes back to haunt them. It amazes me that anyone still has faith in either one of those 2 parties. Just amazes me. Faith like that is impervious to experience and as solid and useless as a lead balloon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:49 PM The 9/11 Commission reports that in March 1998 two al Qaeda members visited Baghdad. And in July 1998, "an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with bin Laden." I am totally against this stupid two party system we have. It reminds me of the Bloods and the Crips. It should be eliminated so each congressman can vote for bills strictly on their merit and not owe anything to anyone except the American people that elected them. Also what the hell happened to the line item veto? We had it for a short time under Clinton but it went away. Please bring it back I am against lobbyists. I am against the money involved in politics. When our system of government was created we did not have the same set of circumstances that we have now. Adjustments should be made before we slip into anarchy and then a dictatorship. Now if someone has a magic wand please wave it. In the mean time I am going to vote for the best man, not for my party. Come to think about it I don't really belong to either party but I liked old man Bush, Reagan and Kennedy. I did not like Clinton, Carter or Nixon, The rest were OK but not great. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:10 PM I'm for that magic wand. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:36 PM Don't bother, Old Guy -- our votes will just cancel each othe rout! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Boab Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:37 AM If Kerry can't expose the monumental cack-handedness of Bush in Thursday's debate, then America really is in an abysmal quandary regarding an even half-decent president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 28 Sep 04 - 09:31 AM If Kerry can't expose the monumental cack-handedness of Bush Won't matter a fart in a high wind if he does. The moronic electorate has no need of facts, & would't know a fact if it reared up on its hind legs and bit them in their collective asses. Get used to the idea of "Four More Years". God Help America. Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 28 Sep 04 - 10:03 AM Oh. Greg F... There's no hope... we're all doomed... the American public is composed of idiots and talk radio preachers... Intelligence is just one of those civil liberties we've had to give up for our freedom... Throwing in the towel already, then... Snap out of it! Do something really good today. Don't fall for the mirage of meaninglessness that they've cast over the crowd... It can't last. Cherrio! ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 04 - 10:38 AM Give 'em hell, Thomas. Between the apathists and the assholists it is hard to find a niche for a decent conversation any more!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 28 Sep 04 - 10:57 AM Amos, I think the scientific term is assoholics... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:12 AM Who is this cowboy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:43 AM GUEST, that's obviously not a cowboy but a gangster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:32 PM Now you're talkin', Old Guy. It is just like the Bloods and the Crips. I can think of nothing that would do America more good right now than to totally abolish the Democratic and Republican parties, and all the other damned parties too, and just vote for individuals. Then those individuals would not owe their souls to a party machine, and would be free to vote their conscience in Congress. There would be NO party in power in Washington, just a group of freely elected representatives who would NOT be artificially divided into two warring power blocks intent on discrediting and ruining each other. And it would throw a monkey wrench into the damned lobbyists too, because they would not have a party bureacracy to control and bribe any longer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 28 Sep 04 - 02:55 PM the American public is composed of idiots Well, for example, last I heard a majority of U.S. citizens still believed Iraq was responsible for the planes hitting the twin towers on 11 Sept. If that's not idiocy- dunno what is. I don't say there's NO hope, just very little if that's any measure of the intelligence they're dealing with. God help America. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:11 PM Old Guy, I said this before. We can drastically reduce our dependence on foriegn oil with simple, common sense conservation measures. We already have the technology. If a person can afford a to buy large SUV, that same person can certainly afford to by a hybrid SUV. And there are many other ways this can be accomplished right now. We don't need to wait 20 years to be able to drastically reduce our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Another thing we could do fairly quickly would be to provide diesel fuel made from non petroleum plant oils for those vehicles that can burn diesel. The US uses way more petroleum per person than any other country. We do not have a right to expect to be able to just take oil from other countries against their will so that we can continue to waste it irresponsibly. Especially if it means waging war on those countries in order to do that. That way of doing things is about as anti-democracy as it is possible to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:26 PM How about if we don't take their oil, but we pay for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:35 PM Depends on whether or not we respect their right to set the price they are willing to accept for their oil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 04 - 04:12 PM OK stupid question time, but if you could just answer me I can follow this better...what's a SUV? Told you it was stupid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 28 Sep 04 - 04:58 PM Sport Utility Vehicle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:03 PM I say that we trade McDonald hamburgers for their oil. Or better yet, give their people an education. Like how to learn to read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Ronald McDonald Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM Thanks, Martin! Your check is in the mail. Don't believe the lies in that awful movie "Supersize Me". It was funded by Saddam and Al Queda. Our hamburgers are wonderful, and I think your idea is right on the money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:11 PM Good point, Ronald. Yeah, Martin. Best way to kill them is to make them eat our food. Then we won't have to bother teaching them to read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:51 PM Whatever it takes. At least they'll tie with a belly full of constipation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:21 PM Kerry's effort at independance on foreign oil: Kerry insisted, "I do NOT own an SUV" said John Kerry during an environmental speech, but when pressed about a Chevrolet Suburban, the mother of all SUVs, kept at the Heinz Kerry abode in Idaho, Kerry said: "The family has it. I don't have it." There are eight "family" cars and SUVs, including the 1995 Suburban (15 mpg highway, 12 mpg city), a 1993 Land Rover Defender (12 mpg highway, 10 mpg city), a 1989 Jeep Cherokee (20 mpg highway, 16 mpg city), a 1994 Jeep Grand Cherokee (20 mpg highway, 15 mpg city), a 2001 Audi Allroad (21 mpg highway, 15 mpg city), a 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser (25 mpg highway, 20 mpg city), a 1985 Dodge 600 Convertible (26 mpg highway, 23 mpg city), and a 2002 Chrysler 300M (26 mpg highway, 18 mpg city). Kerry, however, only owns up to the latter two. Then there's the 2002 Harley Davidson (his), two powerboats (one his, one hers), a power inflatable 2001 Novurania (his), and a Gulfstream II private jet (hers). Kerry's common man hypocrisy: While John Kerry, John Edwards and their families were having a "lite" lunch at Wendy's in the Town of Newburgh Friday, drumming up local support, their real lunches were waiting on their bus. A member of the Kerry advance team called the Newburgh Yacht Club the night before and ordered 19 five-star lunches to go. The gourmet meals to go included shrimp vindallo, grilled diver sea scallops, prosciutto, wrapped stuffed chicken, and steak salad. The meals came to about $200. Days later, after feigning a hankering for some "baby back ribs and a vanilla malted" from a famed Wisconsin diner, Senator Kerry was found dining on filet mignon at a nearby restaurant. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:30 PM anyone could compile an equally interesting list about Bush. I saw a pic of him in a BIG truck on his ranch...and HE is by profession an oil man,,,just not a very successful one. I doubt GW eats bologna sandwiches, either... Lists don't prove much. Oil is limited...we need to look beyond it, and in general, the Democrats are more likely to look than those Republicans who have a vested interest in keeping the wells pumping until every last drop has been wrenched from every last bit of shale and wildlife refuge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:49 PM The point here is Kerry pretends to be something he is not. Does bush deny he owns a big Ford pick up? Does he pretend to like Wendys food like the common man and the eat high on the hog when the public is not watching? Has he ever denied being an oil man? I don't see anything pretentious about Bush but I see Kerry as a fake that goes around pointing his finger at others and calling them a liar. John Kerry: "I'm fascinated by rap and by hip-hop. I think there's a lot of poetry in it. There's a lot of anger, a lot of social energy in it. And I think you'd better listen to it pretty carefully, 'cause it's important. I'm still listening because I know that it's a reflection of the street and it's a reflection of life." Is this or is this not a case of pandering, AKA sucking ass, to get more votes? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 29 Sep 04 - 12:01 AM sorry, but I am concerned with who, and which party, I think will make the best decisions about running the country, NOT in nit-picking about public image and trivial points of how many cars he 'admits' owning. As I said, lists of Bush's faults and personal flaws can be made, and as a matter of fact ARE available all over the internet.... and I wonder if 'pandering' to get votes is a worse fault than stealing them by having your party legislate opposing votes out of existence, as happened in Florida? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 29 Sep 04 - 02:49 AM Old Guy, Bush does the diner/ribs/fast food thing all the time, and you know that's not what he eats when he's not on the road at campaign stops. Honestly, you're simply taking the exact things all candidates do and blaming Kerry for them as though he made them up. I also don't see any source for your information about vehicles. And, depending on who you consider to be in my "family," you could claim "my family" has three million-dollar homes. In fact, I have none, but some of my relatives do. I do not live in them, and in fact rarely visit them. I myself live in a row house in a solid working-middle class neighborhood. So how are my relatives' homes a reflection on my lifestyle or my honesty? In short, Old Guy, You're just making shit up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:14 AM Man, I got a good laugh out of that list of Kerry family vehicles! Rich people run for President. Rich people can afford a lot of vehicles. While they run they try very hard to pretend that they empathize with poor people. After they're elected, well, that's a different story... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:30 AM Anyone who wants to be president is an arrogant asshole. I'm serious. It takes an immense ego and an immense desire for power. They're all creepy people. Judge them by their deeds, not their assholicism. There's a little paper in Crawford Texas (!) that put it this way: "Four items trouble us the most about the Bush administration: his initiatives to disable the Social Security system, the deteriorating state of the American economy, a dangerous shift away from the basic freedoms established by our founding fathers, and his continuous mistakes regarding Iraq." (Lone Star Iconoclast: www.iconoclast-texas.com) I'd say "continuous mistakes" regarding everything he's touched. Time to fire him and give a new asshole a chance to screw up. The new guy is long-jawed and stuffy, but he doesn't claim to channel God the way Bush & Osama do. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 29 Sep 04 - 10:52 AM My family owns a substantial percentage of the Island country of Bermuda (including the high-end real estate). Fat lot of good it does me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Don Firth Date: 29 Sep 04 - 12:26 PM I don't give a damn if Kerry drives the Starship Enterprise. I'll vote for him over Bush any day of the week and twice on Sunday. What a load of dingo's kidneys! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 29 Sep 04 - 02:16 PM The point is Kerry pretends to be something he is not. He is blowing smoke. He is sneaky. He met with the North vietnamese twice in Paris while we were at war. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 29 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM having your party legislate opposing votes out of existence, as happened in Florida? Even before polls closed on election night in Florida, Gore-paid telemarketers made thousands of phone calls to Palm Beach Democrats suggesting and encouraging complaints of voter confusion. Remember the outrage claimed about inadvertent votes for Pat Buchanan? This included both direct and reverse claims of racism: 1) blacks would never vote for Buchanan (except that his running mate was, in fact, black, and 2) Jewish voters would never vote for Buchanan; after all, they claimed, he's an anti-Semite! Only two people complained to their respective precincts about the ballots while the election was going on. It wasn't until the Gore campaign unleashed a massive telemarketing scheme asking, "Did you have a problem with voting and the ballot?" of thousands of Florida voters they called did people begin to complain. "If you did, then you must report it because it is crucial to the Gore campaign," the telemarketers told voters. Then Gore sought to recount the votes only in the counties where he might win. Also he sought to disenfranchise thousands people casting write in ballots. The poor looser lost anyway. PS: The current decline in the American economy began in the spring of 2000 on Clinton's watch and Bush inherited it. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 29 Sep 04 - 02:39 PM Old Guy, I would suggest the current decline began by an overdose of Reagonomics. Clinton's watch ended with the budget balanced for the first time since the Depression, I believe. 'Course that has now been shot to hell by your man's dramatizations of war and fiscal frivolities of one or another kind. The deficit has soared to the largest in history under his (bush's) watch. Hardly seems right toblame that on Bill. But you don't strike me as the kind to care for statistics or facts when your mind is made up. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:08 PM "budget balanced for the first time since the Depression, I believe." You believe wrong. The forecast budget surplus was only on paper. If the good financial times of 1999 had continued we would indeed have had a balanced budget. However that was a bubble spearheaded by the Internet bubble. The financial downturn that "Clinton allowed to happen" began in the spring of 2000 and wiped out any anticipated budget surplus. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 29 Sep 04 - 03:32 PM Old Guy, you are the sneaky liar. You are simply plagiarizing lies from all over the internet. For example: Only two people complained to their respective precincts about the ballots while the election was going on. It wasn't until the Gore campaign unleashed a massive telemarketing scheme asking, "Did you have a problem with voting and the ballot?" of thousands of Florida voters they called did people begin to complain. "If you did, then you must report it because it is crucial to the Gore campaign," the telemarketers told voters. Was written by Jonathan Cribbs, editor in chief of the Loony "Patriot Press." And "Even before polls closed on election night in Florida, Gore-paid telemarketers made thousands of phone calls to Palm Beach Democrats suggesting and encouraging ?complaints? of voter confusion. Remember the ?outrage? claimed about ?inadvertent? votes for Pat Buchanan? This included both direct and reverse claims of racism: 1) blacks would never vote for Buchanan (except that his running mate was, in fact, black, and 2) Jewish voters would never vote for Buchanan; after all, they claimed, he?s an anti-Semite!" Was writtn by Dan Frisa of NewsMax.com So where is your evidence for any of it? It isn't exactly from an impeccable source. Even if it WERE a reliable source, you ought to cite it, not just regurgitate it. Otherwise you are a just pretending to be something you're not, a sneaky no-good slime and perhaps even an arrogant asshole. Finally, the last bit is also irrelevant. Buchanan had little support in the Jewish or black communities, and polls showed that both before and after the election. The suspicious fact was that many more votes were cast for Buchanan in black and Jewish neighborhoods than either pre-election polling or exit polling suggested. People either thought they had voted for someone else, or systematically lied to the pollsters. Finally, of course, Buchanan's antipathy toward the black and jewish communities is well known. In his autobiography he supports segregation; he has publicly accused Carol Mosely-Braun of grandstanding on the confederate flag issue, saying that the flag has nothing to do with slavery and that the civil war didn't either; he was enthusiastically supported by David Duke and other famous white-supremacists; Zhiranovsky considered him a kindred spirit and wrote him a letter suggesting that Buchanan and he could deport the "troublesome tribe" of Jews to some unfortunate third country, etc., etc. Few Jews and even fewer Blacks would vote for him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:07 AM I need a list of impeccable sources approved by Mr. Nerd cause it hurts so much when he calls me a liar. On the night of the election I saw on a cable news channel, an elderly seemingly Jewish woman say that someone called her about the ballot. They asked her who she voted for she said she voted for "Al Lieberman I think". Later on it was reported that telemarketers were calling voters and alerting them that there was a problem with the ballot. (which was designed by a democrat, Theresa LePore and approved by another democrat.) "At a rally with Al Gore the night before the election, Democratic Rep. Lacy Clay told a crowd in St. Louis that he would 'get a court order' the next day to keep the polls open," the editorial states. "Then the next afternoon, lawsuits were filed in Kansas City and St. Louis claiming the polls should stay open because minorities were having trouble voting that day. The Gore-Lieberman campaign was the only plaintiff to appear in both suits. Within minutes of the filing for a problem presumably just discovered that day, pre-recorded phone calls from Jesse Jackson poured into St. Louis telling people they could vote late. Telemarketers are an important election tool for Democrats. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:32 AM Geeze, old Guy -- The theft in Florida 4 years back strikes me as pretty much old battles. I am sorry to tell you this but your candidate Bush is a dyed-in-the-wool liar, and a coward who never faced enemy fire. His statesmanship and management have made a mess. Anyone who cost this nation as much as he has from outside the WHite House would be locked up for treason. Why would you want to see a fumbling incompetent running around in the government for another four years? Do you think bullying and violence are diplomatic tools of choice? Or do you sympathize with his inability to think clearly? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:04 AM I would think telemarketers are an important tool for both of those miserable parties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:37 AM Amos: How did America come to be? All of this bellyaching about the war convinces the terrorists that America can be defeated. It is causing American casualties. So just keep jawing away about how terrible it is, find a scapegoat, and it will come to pass that the American people did not have the resolve to defeat terrorism and promote Democracy. Also keep picking past elections apart and no one will be satisfied with this election. There will always be dissatisfaction with the last election that will cause dissatisfaction with this election that will fan the flames of anarchy. I think the root of the discontent is the battle between the Democrats and the Republicans for power. Some things Bush does are bad and some things are good. Likewise for Clinton but due to a shitty all or nothing power struggle we have to take all the bad stuff with the good. A politician has a hard time being elected with out a party to support him. Then he owes that party and must vote with that party. Bullshit. There needs to be a way that campaining is funded equally with public money only. Air time and printed media must donate equally to all candidates. News organizations and Broadcast media are looking for things to present to people. Let it be the candidates. Get the money out of politics and we won't be having these pissing contests that appears as a weakness to other nations and enemies. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:41 AM All of this bellyaching about the war convinces the terrorists that America can be defeated. It is causing American casualties. That is pure-dee horse shit, Old Guy. Free speech does not cause casualties. My "bellyaching" is aprotest against premeditated destruction of human life with large blunt instruments. In my town this the definition of murder. You may not see it that way, because politics have gotten involved. I fail to see why you complain that I havebeen picking past elections apart -- I'm the one that said it is old news. INeptitude and arrogance of the kind that Bush has inflicted on this country should be rewarded, perhaps by a trial for war crimes, but at the very least by a dramatic loss at the polls. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM Get the money out of politics and we won't be having these pissing contests that appears as a weakness to other nations and enemies. Exactly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:17 PM Old Guy, First of all, these people are not telemarketers, because they are not engaged in marketing. They are campaign callers, and they are an important tool for BOTH parties and more or less all political campaigns today. I'm not denying that Gore had these calls made, I just don't think it's relevant. The Bush campaign had many of these callers, some of whom savaged John McCain during the primaries. I'm also never sure what foolish allegations you're trying to make, Old Guy. For example, what about: "Within minutes of the filing for a problem presumably just discovered that day, pre-recorded phone calls from Jesse Jackson poured into St. Louis telling people they could vote late." So you're saying, what? They were planning it all along and had Jackson record a message two weeks in advance because recording technology takes so long these days? How long do you think it takes to record a voicemail message, Old Guy? (Just how old ARE you anyway?) If you look at the companies that do this, such as http://www.notifyquick.com/get-out-the-vote.htm you'll find that they have 24/7 system readiness. All Jackson had to do was pick up his cell phone wherever he was, record a voicemail message, forward it to the campaign, and it was on the wires. If it was a thirty second message, it would take about 5 minutes. Finally, you haven't addressed the actual issue: WERE the voters voting for wrong person by mistake? If so, what difference does it make who designed the ballot? What difference does it make if there were telemarketers or not? Isn't it better to have an election in which people vote for the person they intend to vote for? The only possible rationale for preventing this from being investigated is...you want Bush to win, whether or not that reflects the desires of the voters. Fine, we can all tell that is your position. But don't blame us for not being convinced. Also, your sources are now one individual claim on "a cable news channel" and "the editorial." Well, NOW we know it must be true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:41 PM A: Are there inappropriate uses of free speech? Has there ever been an instance where free speech has caused someone to die unnecessarily? With freedom comes a responsibility to use that freedom responsibility. Why don't you protest against the premeditated destruction of human life perpetrated by terrorists? That is the reason to go declare war on them. Whatever the causes were for them to want to kill us can't be undone so If freedom is to survive we must defeat them in the only way they understand defeat. The bitching about the last election is causing contention in this election. It keeps being brought up by Democrats who won't let it rest. There are current campaign ads that state Bush stoled the last election. This is not a lecture but just my thoughts. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:50 PM Here it is, folks, your moment of Zen. Od Guy: "With freedom comes a responsibility to use that freedom responsibility." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:32 PM Old Guy: Free speech of the sort that criticizes an incompetent in office at worst will habve the effect of convincing the terrorists, whoever they are, that not ALL AMericans are as dumb as the President, and to proceed carefully with others. If we are to defeat terrorists, why the FUCK did we head off to invade a country which was not being terrorist, at least not externally? Isn't that a confusion of goals? Sure looks like a misassessment to me. As for contention about the past election causing contention in this one, that is why we HAVE elections -- to work through contentious situations and find an allegedly democratic path to the future. Elections have to be contentious by their nature, or they are mockeries. You want a mockery? You want to, what, BURY the polarization that has made this nation more divided than any time since Lincoln? Just suppress the voices of dissent? Screw that. Dissent is the FIRST sign of a healthy and free people at work, when it is tolerated under the law. When it is suppressed by political force, it is the first sign of fascism. WHich path do you prefer? If you think this is not a problem in this country, try wearing a Kerry t-shirt to the next Republican rally you go to. You may stand at risk of being arrested for your dissent. Just a few thoughts on the matter. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:53 PM Amos- Wear a Kerry t-shirt to a republican rally- You must have forgotten about the 5 year old girl and her dad who had the Bush sign torn down and were physically abused at the Kerry rally in Pittsburgh. The picture of her was photographed by an AP reporter. Lets stay with the current Kerry Lies (past two weeks) 1. I have only had one position on Iraq (in the past minute) 2. 90% of the casulties in Iraq were USA (if we don't count the 750 Iraq soldiers killed fighting side by side with us) 3. The USA is spending 200 billion on Iraq which could be used for healthcare (budget has 120 billion for Iraq and 80 billion for Afganastan- has not been spent yet) 4. The "I voted for line before I voted against it" was said late at night when I was tired- on katie couric yesterday (it was actually said at a luncheon between noon and 1) 5. I got this tan windsurfing. (ha ha ha- it is his new carrot diet or a delayed reaction to agent orange when he was in vietnam) Those pop into my head from the past week. If I spend more than 30 seconds on it, I can come up with 30 more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:02 PM LarryK: That scene with the little girl's sign appears to have been staged. Check ou tthis thread: thread.cfm?threadid=73575&messages=2 And then tell us about what happened to the Gold Star mother who wore an anti-Bush T-shirt to a Laura Bush speech... her arrest was definitly not staged. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:03 PM None of those seem particularly mendacious to me, Larry -- they could be off the mark one way or another -- but without the context in which they were offered, I can't assess how true they are. However there are a lot of dead bodies in Iraq today who got that way because of assertions about WMD, about nuclear capabilities or the threat thereof, about uranium from Nigeria, about delivery systems capable of reaching the United States, about AL Queda's operational ties to Saddam -- falsehood after falsehood after falsehood. Substantive, real, operationally significant falsehoods that cost human lives. Give me a f'ing break. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM Ha! I KNEW that Phil Parlock thread would come in handy. Sorry, LarryK, we didn't forget about that guy, he was just another lying liar! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:49 PM you'd think that being in the paper twice would make Parlock think....but all it did was make him think that "each try will get our side more votes than it loses"... and we ALL know that anything goes when God is on your side... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:56 PM LarryK: 1. I have only had one position on Iraq A recent study has shown that Kerry's position on Iraq has in fact been consistent all along. This position was the following: The president should have had the authorization to use force, so that he could use it as leverage to get other countries on our side and continue the weapons inspections. His vote for authorization was never a "vote for the war." It was a vote to give Bush leverage, which Bush claimed he would use in a certain way, and then didn't. Kerry's vote on the 87 billion dollars was also consistent. He voted for a version of the bill that took the money out of the tax cuts for people making more than $300,000 a year. The Republicans quashed that version of the bill in favor of one that just added to the deficit. Kerry voted against that. These are not contradictory positions. The Republicans have simply been twisting his words by claiming that his vote for authorization was a "vote for the war" and that his later criticism of the war contradicted that vote. 2. 90% of the casulties in Iraq were USA (if we don't count the 750 Iraq soldiers killed fighting side by side with us) Kerry was obviously referring here to Bush's claims to have put together a viable "coalition of the willing." Iraq does not count as a member of this "coalition," since it had no choice but to join. Of the members of this so-called coalition, 90% of the casualties have indeed been American. What this means is that Bush invaded Iraq essentially on his own, with very little support from other countries, a fact that the Bush administration has medaciously denied over and over. 3. The USA is spending 200 billion on Iraq which could be used for healthcare (budget has 120 billion for Iraq and 80 billion for Afganastan- has not been spent yet) Uh, so what? I do my department's budgets at work. If I say "we're spending 100,000 on artists' fees," this means in the current fiscal year, and depending on when we are in the year, most of that money may not be spent yet. This fiscal year just began in July, so most of my budget right now is not spent, but i would still express it by saying "we're spending...." This is simply the convention when talking about budgets. If I speak about last year, I say "we spent 100, 000 last year." As for the precise numbers, the budget does not tell the whole story. Obviously, we spent much more on Iraq than budgeted in the past few years. Kerry may be working with estimates of actual spending--remember, he is a Senator and has information you don't. More likely, he just made a mistake and combined the figures from Afghanistan and Iraq, hardly a damning lie! 4. The "I voted for line before I voted against it" was said late at night when I was tired- on katie couric yesterday (it was actually said at a luncheon between noon and 1) When did Kerry make this claim about it being late at night? What evidence do you have of the time at which it was actually said? Can you find any links to substantiate these claims? 5. I got this tan windsurfing. (ha ha ha- it is his new carrot diet or a delayed reaction to agent orange when he was in vietnam) I presume this is just a joke. Kerry is, in fact, an accomplished windsurfer and skier. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:07 PM George Bush is, in fact, an accomplished mendacious braggart and madman, who imagines himself Chosen by God, among other delusions. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:37 AM Mr Nerd: You still haven't given me a list of impeccable sources to research. I saw the woman on the cable news channel live so unless the cable news channel hired an actor I would assume it was for real. I searched around and found her name: Gertrude Bornstein. The point is that Gore fired the first shot which indicates to me that Bush was on the defensive, Not on the offensive as the sore losers claim. Regardless of who struck john, several news organizations went over and over the Florida ballots and all of then concluded that Bush got more votes than Gore. Now the only remaining legitimate beef would be that the electoral college system is unfair. It is the law and if it is unfair it can be changed. I haven't heard anything about anyone proposing a change except that the state of Colorado was going to split it's electoral votes which will still leave an inequity unless they have an electoral vote for every voter. I think the electoral college is arcane. It was designed for the days when it might take someone weeks to get to a voting place. I think it should be done away with along with an lot of other things that are pushing us toward anarchy. Now I hear all this bellyaching about how the new voting systems (insisted on by the sore losers) are not accurate. I agree. We should have stuck with the old ones and just run it correctly. This seems to be a set up for a big battle over the upcoming election complete with His Honor, Mike Moore making a subversive movie out of it for his own personal gain. This might not be from an impeccable source but I have heard it from enough different sources to believe it is true: In POW camps in Vietnam, our soldiers were being tormented with audio clips of an unknown soldier talking about how Americans devastated Vietnam in the fashion of Gengis Khan, pronounced Gin-giss Kan. Now, After hearing his words in the news, POWs are coming forward and realizing that it was Kerry's voice. The same thing is happening right now in Iraq. If cutting and pasting something from the net to a bulletin board is plagiarism then I am guilty as charged but I am not claiming that I wrote them. You are welcome to call me any name you want but this is what I believe. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Oct 04 - 02:15 AM I'll give you an impeccable source or two. Read "The Tao of Pooh". Follow it up with "The Teh of Piglet". Then try "Power versus Force". Then "The Holographic Universe" and "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight". And read "The Prophet", by Kahlil Gibran. None of them will tell you much about either Kerry or Bush, but they WILL tell you lots of other good stuff that is far better to read about in every way. :-) Yes, the electoral college should most certainly be done away with! It's extremely anti-democratic in both function and (in my opinion) intention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:48 AM Old Guy: I have never found out whether the torture stories were true or were not. But the soldiers in Viet COng camps were tortured in any case. Using Kerry's voice clips, if they actually did, was not an act of treason on Kerry's part. Speaking in a free nation, Kerry stood up and said the war in Vietnam was wrongful. Robert McNamara said the same thing but it took him twenty more years to realize it. Do you think, then, that it was a just war? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:21 AM " The point is that Gore fired the first shot which indicates to me that Bush was on the defensive, Not on the offensive as the sore losers claim..." This is ludicrous. Bush had his campaign director Kathryn Harris, back when she was the overseer of elections in Florida, scrub names of people who were still eligible to vote from the rolls. Most of them were black (big surprise!) They also routinely hire thuggish-looking people to "discourage" (intimidate) black people and prevent them from going into the polls. I am actually acting as a poll-watcher this election, to welcome minority voters who show up and are being accosted by these Republican-hired thugs. Bush had been firing shots, as you put it, for months, and he STILL probably lost Florida. As to your claim that "several news organizations went over and over the Florida ballots and all of then concluded that Bush got more votes than Gore." Which ones? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:20 PM ...but I have heard it from enough different sources to believe it is true... You are welcome to call me any name you want but this is what I believe. Tell a lie often enough & it becomes the truth? Then let me be the first to say you really ARE an idiot. By the way: The Americans *DID* devastate Vietnam. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Bill D Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:04 PM ....and if you are gonna cut & paste from the internet, cut & paste the address of the SOURCE, too! and keep them decently short... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Allawi Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:10 PM I knew George Bush. George Bush was a friend of mine while I was working for the CIA. George W Bush is no George Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:03 AM "This is ludicrous. Bush had his campaign director Kathryn Harris, back when she was the overseer of elections in Florida, scrub names of people who were still eligible to vote from the rolls. Most of them were black (big surprise!) They also routinely hire thuggish-looking people to "discourage" (intimidate) black people and prevent them from going into the polls. I am actually acting as a poll-watcher this election, to welcome minority voters who show up and are being accosted by these Republican-hired thugs." Where is the source for this? Was it impeccable? Did you check the Demographics in Florida to determine the percentage of fellons that are black? Do overseers of elections in other states remove fellons from the voter roles or only the ones in Florida? Do they only remove the black ones? We need more than generalizations. Here is a link to a long story about fake votes in St Louis: http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/pubs/reformmandate/reportpage4.asp It is from the Office of the Secretary of State, Missouri - Matt Blunt. Note the part where the lawsuit for the plaintifs Gore-Lieberman, was filed because Robert D. Odom, a deadman, was not allowed to vote. After it was discovered he was dead the plaintifs said they made a minor mistake. They meant to say Robert M. Odom. It was later revealed that Robert M. Odom was not allowed to vote. Then it was found that he had already voted and did not have any trouble voting. Here are some links about the news organizsation's recounts of Florida ballots: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-04-03-floridamain.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/recountindex.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1190222.stm http://www.sptimes.com/News/111201/Lostvotes/Recount__Bush.shtml I didn't see any thuggish around when people when I voted. Paul Galanti is one of the veterans who recalls Kerry's voice being played to the POWs: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40114 Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:09 AM Ahhh, Old Guy. Here is where you are a misleader like your hero Bush. You say: "several news organizations went over and over the Florida ballots and all of then concluded that Bush got more votes than Gore." In fact, all the links you provide, except one, point to THE SAME STUDY. It was conducted by Miami Herald and USA Today, and they throw Knight Ridder in to make it look more authoritative although since the Miami Herald is part of Knight-Ridder this is meaningless. So we have a single study done by two organizations together. When you say several groups did studies and ALL OF THEM conclude something, you strongly suggest independent confirmation from more than two sources. But alas, there was none. The other study (sptimes) found that although there might have been more ballots for Bush, this was only because Floridians botched their votes due to the badly-designed ballot. They clearly found that more Floridians intended to vote for Gore. So Gore won Florida, Old Guy! As for documenting Katherine Harris's crimes, here is an article from Harper's which reveals what they did: They hired a company called DBT, which started with a list of everyone living in the United States who has ever been convicted of a felony. Then, if they found anyone on the Florida voter rolls who had a similar (not necessary to be identical) name, age, race and gender, they eliminated that person. Even if the ex-felon whose name was similar had been pardoned. Even if that ex-felon actually had the right to vote, which is true of most ex-felons (thirty-five states restore their voting rights when they serve their time, and it is unconstitutional for Florida to take the right to vote away from a person whose felony conviction was from another state and who had voting rights restored by that state). Even if there was no evidence that the felon had ever been to Florida, let alone was the same person listed on the Florida voter rolls, the Florida voter was purged. So if there was a convicted felon named "John Smith" anywhere in America, then any John Smith in Florida of a similar age and race would be purged. There article is here http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=1 I'll give you a nice sample. Note the hilarious parts in bold! Two of these "scrub lists," as officials called them, were distributed to counties in the months before the election with orders to remove the voters named. Together the lists comprised nearly 1 percent of Florida's electorate and nearly 3 percent of its African-American voters. Most of the voters (such as "David Butler," (1); a name that appears 77 times in Florida phone books) were selected because their name, gender, birthdate and race matched - or nearly matched - one of the tens of millions of ex-felons in the United States. Neither DBT nor the state conducted any further research to verify the matches. DBT, which frequently is hired by the F.B.I. to conduct manhunts, originally proposed using address histories and financial records to confirm the names, but the state declined the cross-checks. In Harris's elections office files, next to DBT's sophisticated verification plan, there is a hand-written note: "DON'T NEED." Thomas Alvin Cooper (2), twenty-eight, was flagged because of a crime for which he will be convicted in the year 2007. According to Florida's elections division, this intrepid time-traveler will cover his tracks by moving to Ohio, adding a middle name, and changing his race. Harper's found 325 names on the list with conviction dates in the future, a fact that did not escape Department of Elections workers, who, in June 2000 emails headed, "Future Conviction Dates," termed the discovery, "bad news." Rather than release this whacky data to skeptical counties, Janet Mudrow, state liaison to DBT, suggested that "blanks would be preferable in these cases." (Harper's counted 4,917 blank conviction dates.) The one county that checked each of the 694 names on its local list could verify only 34 as actual felony convicts. Some counties defied Harris' directives; Madison County's elections supervisor Linda Howell refused the purge list after she found her own name on it. Rev. Willie Dixon (3), seventy, was guilty of a crime in his youth; but one phone call would have told the state that it had already pardoned Dixon and restored his right to vote. On behalf of Dixon and other excluded voters, the NAACP in January 2001 sued Florida and Harris, after finding that African-Americans--who account for 13 percent of Florida's electorate and 46 percent of U.S. felony convictions--were four times as likely as whites to be incorrectly singled out under the state's methodology. After the election, Harris and her elections chief Clay Roberts, testified under oath that verifying the lists was solely the work of county supervisors. But the Florida-DBT contract (marked "Secret" and "Confidential") holds DBT responsible for "manual verification using telephone calls." in fact, with the state's blessing, DBT did not call a single felon. When I asked [Harris's Aide] Roberts about the contract during an interview for BBC television, Roberts ripped off his microphone, ran into his office, locked the door, and called in state troopers to remove us. Johnny Jackson Jr. (4), thirty-two, has never been to Texas, and his mother swears he never had the middle name "Fitzgerald." Neither is there evidence that John Fitzgerald Jackson, felon of Texas, has ever left the Lone Star State. But even if they were the same man, removing him from Florida's voter rolls is an unconstitutional act. Texas is among the thirty five states where ex-felons are permitted to vote, and the "full faith and credit" clause of the U.S. Constitution forbids states to revoke any civil rights that a citizen has been granted by another state; in fact, the Florida Supreme Court had twice ordered the state not to do so, just nine months before the voter purge. Nevertheless, at least 2,873 voters were wrongly removed, a purge authorized by a September 18, 2000 letter to counties from Governor Bush's clemency office. On February 23, 2001, days after the U.S. Commission of Civil Rights began investigating the matters, Bush's office issued a new letter allowing these persons to vote; no copies of the earlier letter could be found in the clemency office or on its computers. After this article, Harris wrote an angry letter to Harpers. But as the original author Palast pointed out in his response to the letter: "Katherine Harris does not deny the central allegations of my Annotation: that her office ordered 57,700 Florida citizens be removed from the voter rolls, despite the knowledge that many, if not most, of these citizens were innocent of all crimes." He also points out this doozy: " The Annotation's most damning accusation, from the view of civil rights lawyers, is that the state purged ex-convicts who had their right to vote restored by other states. Rather than deny the charge, Harris claims that she was required to do so by a letter from Governor Jeb Bush's Office of Executive Clemency. Oops! Harris has just blown Jeb's alibi. His office, as I mention in the Annotation, assured me that no such letter exists. Indeed, Bush's office produced a letter dated February 23, 2001, with a position opposite Harris's." So take your pick, Old Guy. Either Katherine Harris (now a congresswoman, then State Supervisor of elections, Florida secretary of state, and Bush campaign chair) lied and cheated and broke the law to get people off the voter rolls because Jeb Bush told her to, or because it was her own idea. Either she or Jeb is lying about it. By the way, if you want to keep claiming that Gore-Lieberman are the only plaintiffs in any of the lawsuits about voting rights, you've missed the most important one, outlined on the ACLU website: http://www.aclufl.org/legislature_courts/legal_department/briefs_complaints/naacp_v__harris.cfm It's a huge class-action suit spearheaded by the NAACP. Finally, if you didn't see any thuggish people around harrassing black people when you voted it's probably because you don't vote where there a lot of black people. I'm just guessing here. For over 10 years I lived in a black neighborhood of Philadelphia and I saw them during all three presidential elections I voted in there. Now I live in a mostly white neighborhood, and funnily enough they don't bother to come here. But I'm going out to another neighborhood as a volunteer to protect the rights of minorities to vote! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 02 Oct 04 - 06:33 AM Nerd: "In fact, all the links you provide, except one, point to THE SAME STUDY. It was conducted by Miami Herald and USA Today, and they throw Knight Ridder in to make it look more authoritative although since the Miami Herald is part of Knight-Ridder this is meaningless. So we have a single study done by two organizations together. When you say several groups did studies and ALL OF THEM conclude something, you strongly suggest independent confirmation from more than two sources. But alas, there was none." And your entire post was from one article in Harpers "here is an article from Harper's which reveals what they did:" Where is your independent confirmation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 02 Oct 04 - 09:12 AM Nerd: Thanks for getting it said. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 02 Oct 04 - 12:33 PM The difference GUEST, is that I didn't say "several studies show that this happened." You did. YOU are the one who set the terms under which your information will be judged, and you are incompetent at doing so. Secondly, the ACLU site featuring the NAACP suit IS independent confirmation, no? If you had bothered to look at it, you would have seen that it contains independant testimony from many plaintiffs involving voting irregularities in which they mysteriously disappeared from the voting lists. These are NOT the same people dealt with by Palast. Here are some more articles: http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/08/04/florida/index.html http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0510-10.htm http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/01/12/politics/main263685.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:18 PM "if you want to keep claiming that Gore-Lieberman are the only plaintiffs in any of the lawsuits about voting rights" Where did I claim this? If you want to claim Gore won the presidential election and or that Bush stold it just go ahead and claim it. I am just stating why I believe Bush won fair and square even though Gore tried to snatch it using such comptible resources as telemarketers. In the process he created a lot if hatred amongst the voters which will affect future elections. If you disagree with me so be it. I am also stating that Gore/Liberman pulled legal tricks such as the one in St Louis. They claimed that a dead guy was unable to vote and then changed him to a guy that had already voted. This was documented by the state of Misouri. That is all the proof I need. If you think I am stupid so what? If you think the state is wrong or something, Ok, say it. I am not trying to mislead anybody I am just saying what I beleive and why I believe it. If you want to call me names, go ahead. I saw the Washington Post, New York Times, Associated Press, Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, Palm Beach Post, St. Petersburg Times, and CNN mentioned in the ballot study which concluded Bush won. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 02 Oct 04 - 01:31 PM Old Guy, you must be built upside down. 1. The legitimate count was in favor of Gore. 2. The snatching and bullyragging was done by the Bush machine, who denied states' rights (where a real recount was being ordered) and cajoled the Supremes into esentially bypassing the rights of the State of FLordia to order that recount, and instead awarded the Presidency to their chosen son. Bush believes in aggressive falsification in order to acheive his goals, something he has demonstrated time and time again. He has done this to justify environmental abuse, manslaughter (or murder) and the ham-handed erosion of civil liberties. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 02 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM "if you want to keep claiming that Gore-Lieberman are the only plaintiffs in any of the lawsuits about voting rights" Where did I claim this? You cited several lawsuits in which "the Gore-Lieberman campaign was the only plaintiff." They're right in this thread and you can find them. I'm just pointing out that there are other, far more important, lawsuits, in which they are not the only plaintiff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:03 PM You believe what you think you heard and I will believe what I think I heard. I think I heard news people saying that no matter how the ballots were recounted, even using the most stringent pro Gore standards, Bush got more votes in Florida. When I search on the net I find the same thing over and over. I think there was one non-news entity saying otherwise. I guess if you search for Gore won you will find more evidence that Gore won. I tend to search for "florida ballot recount" and see if more sources say gore won than said bush won. Then I make a conclusion. As far as I can see, it is almost unanimous amongst the news sources involved that Bush won. Hell if Gore had keep his mouth shut, he may have won and there would not have been a problem. Then he would have had that 9/11 hot potato in his lap. What I am saying is all this bickering is hurting the country and making it dang nigh impossible to have a conclusive election. I would be happy with Kerry for pres if it would make all this democrat vs. republican bullshit go away. It ain't worth it. To have an effective government, people have to be behind it. Everybody was behind Bush on 9/11 but cry baby democrats have spun it the other way. I like Joe Lieberman. I think he is a man of conviction he would make a good president. I also like McCain. But I think Kerry is an arrogant asshole. During the debate he put Bush down about not building a coalition. Then he put him down about the coalition he built to deal with N. Korea. Let the arrogant asshole be president. He won't do a damned thing different from Bush except appease the crybaby Democrats and blame all of his shortcomings on Bush. At least all this partisan bickering might go away. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Alice Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:23 PM Florida quietly admitted election fraud in the 2000 election, blocking mostly African American voters from voting. They settled a lawsuit with the NAACP. If you haven't heard about it, then it is because the media largely ignored both the lawsuit and the settlement. Associated Press article here: http://www.truthout.com/docs_02/04.28A.Election.Fraud.p.htm Click here Some facts about how the Florida 2000 election illegally blocked voters from voting: http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=1 Click here THE GREAT FLORIDA EX-CON GAME How the 'felon' voter-purge was itself felonious Harper's Magazine Friday, March 1, 2002 by Greg Palast |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:34 PM "You cited several lawsuits in which "the Gore-Lieberman campaign was the only plaintiff." Gore-Lieberman and a dead guy were the plaintiffs. Then it was Gore-Lieberman and a guy that had already voted were the plaintiffs. It reads the only plaintiff that appears in both suits. Meaning Gore-Lieberman and the dead guy appeared in the first suit and Gore-Lieberman and the guy that already voted appeared in the second suit. I am not here to lead or mislead anybody. I am here to state my beliefs and I believe Kerry is an arrogant asshole but the discussion keeps coming back to what Bush did as if that proves that Kerry is not an arrogant asshole. It is pretty pitiful when someone's campaign consists of 90% what the opponent did and 10% what he did. The reason is he has done nothing but dishonor his country, vote against things he claims we need now like body armor and not vote on 89 percent of the Senate votes so far this year. Who do you believe told CBS about the forged documents? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:07 PM To me Kerry has always seemed less arrogant than Bush.. Bush said God speaks through him. That's arrogant; the same arrogance the radical Moslems show. When asked by a reporter Bush was unable to think of any mistakes he made. That's arrogant; only God could make no mistakes. It's generally known that there are more terrorists in Iraq than there were before the invasion; there are a number of places in Iraq where we don't go now, etc. etc. -- as the Newsweek article said, "It's Worse Than You Think." -- yet he defends his strategy. That's arrogant and stupid. He has said that what he likes about beng President is that he doesn't have to explain himself to anybody. That's arrogant; The President is a servant of the people and answerable to them. There's more, of course. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM "Bush said God speaks through him." I didn't know that. I am interested. When did he say that? OMA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,heric Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:43 PM He probably didn't say that But I wonder why junior has this "God and Country" crowd surrounding him in such stark contrast to his old man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 02 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM Old Guy, it is not "what I wanted to hear." This is from one of the articles that YOU posted, claiming that Bush would have won: "The unprecedented study of ballots that were cast but not counted offers Gore a frustrating point of consolation. More Florida voters clearly intended to vote for him than Bush. But their intentions were thwarted by imperfect voting machines, confusing ballots and fuzzy state law. How do we know? Nearly 3,690 ballots rejected as overvotes because of multiple marks revealed clear, unambiguous votes, according to the media analysis. But vague state law kept them from being counted -- and they favored Gore over Bush by a margin of more than 800. Florida now has new election rules for hand-counting such ballots. Had the new rules been in place last year, Gore probably would have won the election." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Oct 04 - 05:54 PM Are we talking about votes or are we talking about people who wanted to vote, screwed up and then someone had to devine how they wanted to vote? How many studies came to this conclusion? How many came to the opposite conclusion? How about trying this: I searched gore won on Google. Results 1 - 10 of about 1,180,000 for gore won. I searched "bush won" Results 1 - 10 of about 4,560,000 for bush won. I put it in quotation marks and I get: Results 1 - 10 of about 48,000 for "gore won" Results 1 - 10 of about 118,000 for "bush won" It looks to me like more people think Bush won. Obviously you believe Gore won. I don't. Does it prove whether Kerry is an arrogant asshole or not? What it does prove is that there is a lot of anger left over from that election to put the upcoming elections in question regardless of who wins and that is not good. How long are we going to carry it forward? Look at the assholes in Serbia and Kosovo. They are still killing each other about shit that they claim or think happened 1000 years ago. People have to learn to get along but this partisan bullshit has to end or we will be in another Kosovo vs Serbia or Palestinian vs Jew conflict complete with bombs. The main cause of it is the Democrat vs Republican conflict. In any event, I think Kerry is an arrogant asshole. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 02 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM ' "Bush said God speaks through him." I didn't know that. I am interested. When did he say that? OMA ' Last July. Reported in the Lancaster New Era "Bush quietly meets with Amish here; they offer their prayers "By Jack Brubaker "Lancaster New Era "LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - President Bush met privately with a group of Old Order Amish during his visit to Lancaster County last Friday. He discussed their farms and their hats and his religion." Howerver, "The complete text of this article is no longer available online. If you wish to view the entire story please visit our archive or if you wish to order a reprint please visit our Customer Care Center. " But it's quoted here: http://www.mennoweekly.org/AUGUST/08-02-04/BUSH08-02.html "'At the end of the session, Bush reportedly told the group, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job.' " It does say "reportedly," but I trust the Amish not to lie. There's a nice Whoopie Pie story there too. heric's talking about a different incident. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 02 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM Well, I looked a little farther, and found a columnist that says the White House denies that Bush said it. That may be true. But they would say that anyway, wouldn't they? On the other hand, pro-Bush people say that he believes God wants him as president, which amounts to the same thing. If he thinks God is guiding him, he must think God guides his speech as wel. Published on Wednesday, September 1, 2004 by the Free Press (Columbus, Ohio) President Bush told Texas evangelist James Robinson that "I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen . . . I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it." http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0901-03.htm Michael Gerson, Bush's chief speechwriter, tells colleagues that on September 20 2001, after Bush delivered his speech to the Congress declaring a war on terror, he called Gerson to thank him for writing it. "God wants you here," Gerson says he told the president. And he says that Bush replied: "God wants us here." There's lots of quotes about these statements. The Divine Right of GW Bush. Arrogance. "God wants me to do all this. If you're against me you're against God's will." clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 02 Oct 04 - 07:59 PM Your little google game just proves you're being foolish, Old Guy. I know you're smarter than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 02 Oct 04 - 08:13 PM "How many studies came to this conclusion? How many came to the opposite conclusion?" It was a unique study. Only one such study was done. As far as I know, only the one other study you cited came to the opposite conclusion, using a different methodology. So maybe NOW you don't want to take the SP TIMES study's word for it? Okay...but you cited the study yourself, while concealing this part of its conclusion. If you are now disputing the study, then you were clearly being dishonest to cite it in the first place; either you trust it or you don't. If you DO trust it, you must admit Gore would have won Florida if the ballots were counted reasonably. If you DON'T trust it, then you have shown us that there is one study supporting your contention, and one not supporting it. That's hardly conclusive evidence. Obviously, your answer will be "How do you know? And I STILL think Kerry is an arrogant asshole." But by repeating yourself in such an unpleasant way, you're only convincing people that you are one yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Oct 04 - 09:10 PM Sorry Nerd. Now I see what you mean about one study. Several News organizations got together and financed a big study of the Ballots. They all agreed that Bush won. So did Gore:"We are a nation of laws and the presidential election of 2000 is over" "Right now, our country faces a great challenge as we seek to successfully combat terrorism. I fully support President Bush's efforts to achieve that goal." http://www.greenvilledemocrats.com/apflorida.html http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html And I STILL think Kerry is an arrogant asshole and that is what this thread is about. I got pissed when I saw the great statesman and diplomat John Kerry on TV downing any progress we might have made in Iraq for his political and personal gain and arrogantly telling Alawi that he is not telling the truth and I am blowing off steam here. Anything positive might shatter his liberal elite charisma. He has one thing going for him. He won't have to put on a costume for Halloween. He can pass as Herman Munster. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 02 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM The only progress in Iraq was getting rid of Saddam, and that cost too much. I am not reckoning the cost in money. Since then Iraq has constantly deteriorated. Physically it's worse off, and Saddam has been replaced by a large number of fanatics, terrorists and idiots. And a lot of people are dead. Alawi is not telling the truth; he's repeating the Bushie's party line. And I still think that Bush is a more arrogant asshole, for reasons cited before, and also because that's what his body language says: the Banty Strut, the Smirk, the Cowboy Boots on a man that doesn't ride. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: katlaughing Date: 02 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM Just in case some may have missed this thread, read all about how Bush et alia really do believe he is the Second Coming. To read the whole article, click on the NYxs link then enter mudcat50 for user name and mudcat for the password. The arrogance surpasses anything Kerry might even think about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 03 Oct 04 - 12:39 AM Thank you for proving me right, Old Guy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 03 Oct 04 - 01:00 AM And by the way you're STILL distorting the truth: "Several News organizations got together and financed a big study of the Ballots. They all agreed that Bush won." First of all, everyone knows that Bush "won," whatever that means. It's his ass on the White House toilet, right? But did he get more votes? SHOULD he have won? That's the question these organizations were asking. As I pointed out, only TWO news organizations got together and did one study that found that Bush got more votes, while another group of an undetermined number of news organizations, including the St. Petersburg Times, found that Bush got fewer votes. But this doesn't matter to you. You'll happily claim that they both support your position, because you have been intellectually dishonest throughout this exchange. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Oct 04 - 06:08 AM Lets cut to the chase. Never mind the debate, lets get on with the abuse. Are you voting for the arrogant asshole, or the mentally defective crook? what's it going to be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:00 AM And U.S. voters are terrified of phantom "Radical Muslim Fundamentalists"? They'd be well advised to pay more attention to the very real & imminent threats posed by Radical Christian Fundamentalists of the Gott Mit Uns BuShite variety. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:42 AM I did not know that there are differenet kinds of dishonesty. Am I being intellectually dishonest when I say I am disgusted with the American system of politics as it stands right now? I am sick in the stomach. The majority of Americans do not have any respect for any body eles's beliefs unless it matches theirs. Seems to me that is also the cause if the problems in the middle east and that is where we are headed. Vote for Kerry. He is not an asshole. Gore won the last election and Iraq is a toal loss. Now my beliefs are the same as yours. Does this make you happy? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:49 AM Old Guy: CLoser to the truth, I would say. I am sure he is not an asshole. I am sure Iraq is a mess. Disrespect of others' beliefs is certainly behind the problems in the Middle East, no mistake. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 03 Oct 04 - 01:21 PM Am I being intellectually dishonest when I say I am disgusted with the American system of politics as it stands right now? This looks like a very healthy sort of honesty to me. And I am in complete agreement with you about the American system of politics right now. I, too, would like to see the big money removed from the equation, and also the political parties and their party machines, and partisan politics. Our system is broken and it needs to be fixed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Morticalia Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM Amen. He really is an asshole, a stupid, vacillating, ungodly asshole. Mark my words, he'll be excommunicated from the Catholic church if he gets elected and pulls that "abortion for every crack whore off the streets" shit. Bush isn't great, but with this year's election, its all about choosing the lesser of two evils. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 03 Oct 04 - 09:28 PM He really is an asshole, a stupid, vacillating, ungodly asshole. Too true. That's why it would be a better idea to vote for Kerry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:05 PM John Kerry has done nothing to qualify for the label asshole. He has been scandalously maligned with intentional false reports in the press, but no-one has come up with any hard facts that justify this label. Bush, on the other hand, has done plenty to earn the opprobrium and be labeled an asshole. For one thing he is only semi-literate, and is consciously anti-thought. For another thing he has needlessly sacrificed hundreds of human lives for no clear purpose and pretended it was all otherwise. If being murderous without need and being intentionally unreflective and unthoughtful does not qualify one for the label asshole, I just don't know. We need a new dictionary. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:09 PM Yup, the whole dang situation is pretty discouraging, all right, Old Guy. You know, I do NOT expect politicians to solve my problems. Not any more. Matter of fact, I expect them to CAUSE a goodly number of my problems, but I intend to have a good life anyway in spite of them. Modern elections have turned into a shameful process. The electoral college should be dissolved. Polling should not be allowed to be reported on at all in the media. The political parties should all be disbanded. Everyone who runs for office should be an independent. None of the above will happen, though, because there is too much money invested in maintaining things as they already are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:15 PM I have seen the light. I have been saved. I am going to vote for Kerry for 2 reasons. #1 This election is going to be so close that there is going to be a battle even worse than the one over the last presidential election. Fighting in the streets? Riots? Military Coups? Martial law? I would like to avoid that from happening. Both sides are assembling teams of lawyers to contest the results in any state. #2. I want Mr. non-asshole Kerry to fix everything he says is broke like he says he will. God and/or Allah help him if he does not. Something tells me the nastiest attacks from both rival gangs are being saved for the day before election day. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Cluin Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:21 PM You should have to be able to pass a basic civics exam before you get to cast a vote anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:27 PM He is a sure clone from the county he was named for |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM And by the way you're STILL distorting the truth: "Several News organizations got together and financed a big study of the Ballots. They all agreed that Bush won." First of all, everyone knows that Bush "won," whatever that means. It's his ass on the White House toilet, right? But did he get more votes? SHOULD he have won? That's the question these organizations were asking. As I pointed out, only TWO news organizations got together and did one study that found that Bush got more votes, while another group of an undetermined number of news organizations, including the St. Petersburg Times, found that Bush got fewer votes. SP Times: "If the recounts had proceeded, who would have won the presidency? The answer is Bush." http://www.sptimes.com/News/111201/Lostvotes/Recount__Bush.shtml CNN: "The National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago conducted the six-month study for a consortium of eight news media companies, including CNN... ...The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago study was commissioned by eight media companies -- The Associated Press, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, the St. Petersburg Times, The Palm Beach Post, The Washington Post and the Tribune Co., which includes the Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, the Orlando Sentinel and Baltimore Sun, as well as other papers. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html But this doesn't matter to you. You'll happily claim that they both support your position, because you have been intellectually dishonest throughout this exchange. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:48 PM Old Guy: I think it would be wise, and I appreciate the effort. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 03 Oct 04 - 11:30 PM Old Guy, Well, NOW you have found the evidence to back up some of your claims. That wasn't so hard, was it? However, if you actually READ the sp times article, rather than just the headline, it says that Bush would have won if the recounts had proceeded under the rules they were using, but that Gore actually got more votes. It essentially claims that the recount procedure was bad, not that Bush should be president. Anyway, good luck with your vote! You've STILL been an arrogant you-know what on this thread! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:12 AM Mr Nerd: You are absolutely right. If the screwed up overvotes had been counted, which were mostly for Gore, Gore would have won. It is my personal opinion (which is probably different from yours) is that it is even possible that if Gore had not initiated legal challenges he might have won. SP Times: "Both Gore and Bush lost votes because voters marked the ballot beside their favorite's name and then wrote Bush or Gore in elsewhere, crossed out all other candidates besides the one they wanted, or tried to correct a mistake and then vote again on the same ballot. Those overvotes were Gore's best hope, but in the wake of the butterfly ballot controversy, the Gore team barely discussed overvotes and its lawyers never argued in court to count them. "Nobody asked for a contest of the overvotes," Gore lawyer David Boies told the U.S. Supreme Court in the last hearing. The media analysis shows that among those 3,690 overvotes that could be considered legitimate votes, 6 out of 10 were cast for Gore. Instead of pursuing overvotes, the Gore team sought manual recounts of undervotes in four counties: Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach and Volusia counties. At the time, it sounded like a good idea. Gore already led in those four counties, and he figured to pick up votes at a faster rate than Bush in a hand recount. But Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris refused to certify some of those recounts and wouldn't allow time for all of them to be completed. Even with a recount of just those four counties, the media analysis shows, Gore still would have lost by 225 votes." http://www.sptimes.com/News/111201/Lostvotes/Recount__Bush.shtml In any event whatever you say is correct. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:14 AM messidge number 200! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:39 AM "Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris refused to certify some of those recounts..." Harris was also the head of the Bush Campaign in Florida. Conflict of interest? You decide! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:40 AM we had an election like that once in England where the guy who got least votes won handsomely due to our first past the post system. 1966. Its just one of those things in democracy. An anomaly. One of our major parties (the Liberals ) have hardly any seats in parliament because of it. Its not fair at all. I can't help thinking perhaps like us you need electoral reform that's all - don't give up on democracy. Can't think of anything better off hand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM "Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris refused to certify some of those recounts..." Harris was also the head of the Bush Campaign in Florida. Conflict of interest? You decide! Oh most definitely a conflict of interest. You are right again. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:50 PM Old Guy, does anyone else have access to your computer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:54 PM Ebbie: OG is taking the piss, as the Yuks like to say. Either that or he is boirn again enlightened and has seen the light, or he is suffering from multiple personalities. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:20 PM Old Guy is using a more passive-aggressive strategy now is all. I doubt he's changed his views. But that's okay, I forgive him. And as he will tell you, I am always right! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:11 AM Regardless of who gets more votes in a particular state, it is ridiculous that that state should have ALL its electors vote for the single candidate with the most votes! It's an outrageous thing to do, and it should be unconstitutional. The electors should proportionately representate the voters. If 45% of the votes vote for Bush, 46% vote for Gore, and 9% vote for Nader, for example, and there are 20 electors, then it should be counted as... 9 electors for Bush 9 electors for Gore 2 for Nader That would be something at least resembling a democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:47 AM I read an article that says Iraqis want Kerry to win. Iraqis watched the debate on satellite TV. Now they know how Kerry will do everything right. Lets give them Kerry. Then the Iraq problem will be solved. http://www.iraq4u.com/applications/news/anmviewer.asp?a=1525&z=13 Note that there were no dishes allowed until that arrogant asshole Bush removed Saddam from power. But we all know that Kerry would have done the same thing only better. Or then again I could be wrong. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:34 AM OG-- When you open a thread with a challenge like "Kerry is an arrogant asshole," there's not much chance you'll get a reasoned discussion. "Asshole" in this case is not a *description* of Kerry, it's an expression of *how you feel about him,* and there's no use discussing it. If that's how you feel, it's how you feel. So the discussion comes down to "Is not!" "Is too!" and the ill-will increases. And I have gotten sucked in as much as anyone and contributed my share but I think I'll quit. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: George Papavgeris Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:50 AM OG, never mind all that other stuff - in your last post you state "there were no (sattelite) dishes allowed (in Iraq) before Bush removed Saddam from power". Where on God's earth DID you get that fact? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM I don't know if theses sources are approved or not but here are a few: http://www.charleston.net/stories/051703/ter_17satellite.shtml http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0429/p06s01-woiq.html http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/05/iraq-030528-rfel-163456.htm http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040312041539.6t3c7l1v.html http://www.dailyherald.com/special/iraq/wwi_paststory.asp?intID=3779791 Here are some links to the alleged oil for food scandal. I am not saying any of them are true. They could all be pro Bush propaganda. http://www.brookesnews.com/040202saddamsbribes.html http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040503-123158-1229r.htm http://www.iht.com/articles/541766.html http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/9779443.htm?1c Of course that Iraqi newspaper could not have published that list of 270 oil voucher recipients if that swaggering cowboy, Bush and his gang of henchmen had not falsified the edivence to invade Iraq. Kerry would have done the same thing in a more sensitive manner working thru the UN instead of working against the UN, Russia, Germany and France. Of course I could be wrong about all of this. A smart person is not afraid to change his mind after he re-evaluates the situation. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:33 AM A smart person is not afraid to change his mind after he re-evaluates the situation Old Guy: You have redeemed yourself (not that you really needed to) in my book with that one sentence. My biggest irritation with Bush is his frequent apparent unwillingness to review his own actions and opinions. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:48 AM That is why Kerry is so right for our country. He re-evaluates the situation and and changes his position as necessary. He will run every course of action past the UN and seek their blessing before taking action. That way we cannot possibly step on anybody's toes, even the ones that could be making money off of a situation that might de detrimental to the US. You know thw kind of situation like when two non benefiting countries are trying to contain a brutal dictator while other countries are getting payoffs from the brutal dictator. That sort of thing would never happen if Kerry was in charge. I could stand to be corrected on this. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:57 AM Ah, sorry. I was taking you seriously. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:09 PM Take a look this hogwash: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/527uwabl.asp It is probably just Bush propaganda like all those lies about WMWDs. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:41 PM Of course Iraqis want Kerry to win...Bush invaded them and smashed up their country! I imagine they would favour ANY alternative to Bush at this point. In that respect, they feel much like the majority of people do in virtually every other country in the World right now except maybe for Israel. Bush is the devil they already know all too well, and they DON'T want him back for another term. Kerry is the devil they don't know yet, so they figure, why not give him a try? He might turn out to be better than Bush. :-) It's as simple as that. If Hitler had had a runoff election with some other German politician in, say, 1942...(just assuming it could have happened)...would the Belgians, Dutch, Russians, Yugoslavs, British, and French have wanted Hitler to win?????????? I don't think so. They would have favoured a change in German leadership, any change, anyone else whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:49 PM OG: There were clear ties between the chemical plant and Iraq. There were clear ties between the chemical plant and AL Qaeda. So the Sudan was doing business with both parties one way or another. But this does not demonstrate ties between Al Quaeda and Iraq. Secular social governments like Hussein's were anathema to bin Laden's Muslim extremists. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:45 PM I said it was probably lies like this one: The 9/11 Commission reports that in March 1998 two al Qaeda members visited Baghdad. And in July 1998, "an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with bin Laden." It does not prove anything. Everybody knows Bush lied when he said Saddam was directly involved in the 9/11 attack. I haven't been able to see evidence that he said it anywhere but I know it must be true. All the cocky bastard knows how to do is lie. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/12/kerry.powell.iraq/ But I could possibly be wrong and I am ready to change my mind any time I find out I am wrong. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: George Papavgeris Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:22 PM You make me smile, OG. Careful you don't pierce your cheek with your tongue when you write these posts! A) "I could possibly be wrong and I am ready to change my mind any time I find out I am wrong...". The thing is, OG, this requires the ability to recognise that they have been wrong, before they can accept it and then change their mind. Simply putting facts in front of someone is not sufficient. The human mind can be extremely agile in avoiding the unpleasantly obvious, a kind of "flight or fight". So, simply making that statement above - tongue in cheek as it is anyway - does not prove that you would know "when you are wrong". It's a fence painted to look like a gate. B) "Everybody knows Bush lied when he said Saddam was directly involved in the 9/11 attack. I haven't been able to see evidence that he said it anywhere but I know it must be true. All the cocky bastard knows how to do is lie." Ah, there you go again. It's that word "directly" that you inserted ever-so-carefully. Because I scanned this thread, albeit rather hastily, and I could not find anyone posting here that was claiming that Bush said that. However, Bush did put Iraq at head of his Axis of Evil, and made Saddam his focus in attacking Iraq post 9/11. Did he not? And in doing so, was he not inferring INDIRECT involvement of Saddam and Iraq in 9/11? Otherwise, why was he so hellbent on going there (hellbent to the extent of casting aside the UN until he needed their cloak of respectability, much later)? The Iraq war was part of the Crusade against terrorism, was it not? And if he did infer indirect involvement, which to date has not been proven (not inferred, not deduced, not assumed, but proven - as in "with facts that withstand scrutiny"), was he not dishonest in the first place? As indeed I believe you may be, OG. The only mitigating factor I can think of would be the inability to recognise when one is wrong, which many of us suffer from. Because to be truly dishonest one needs to have the knowledge of the truth in the first place, and perhaps you don't. Or perhaps it is me, and others here, who do not see the obvious. It can happen. But a proverb where I come from says "If one laughs on his own, he's a fool. If two people laugh, they may know something". Whatever. Thank you for posting all those links regarding sattelite dishes, I will check them when I have time. Meanwhile, keep at it, OG. You clearly have time on your hands. And truth has time on its side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:01 PM Clinton refered to an axis: On February 17, 1998, President Clinton, speaking at the Pentagon, warned of the "reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals." These "predators of the twenty-first century," he said, these enemies of America, "will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq." http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/274fwxli.asp?pg=2 However I don't have the ability to recognise when I am wrong so I could be wrong. I have to go watch Chaney get his ass kicked now. I know Edwards will win because he and Kerry can fix everything while Bush and his partner in crime, Chaney are just liars. I might be wrong though. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:50 PM Good link. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:13 AM All I know is everybody claims Bush said Saddam was connected to the 9/11 attacks. Some even say he said Saddam was responsible. I can't find evidence that he said either so I will go along with popular opinion. If someone can prove the negative I will change my mind. Some Propaganda says there was a connection but I can't believe it. It can't possibly be true: "According to the New York Times, which has never editorialized its belief in an Al Qaeda-Iraq connection, has disclosed details of an Iraqi intelligence paper that discusses the Baghdad-bin Laden "relationship," as well as plans for bin Laden to work with Iraq against the ruling family in Saudi Arabia, the latter nation the birthplace of bin Laden." "The Iraqi-Al-Qaeda plan to disrupt the House of Saud did not end when bin Laden left the oil-rich kingdom in 1996. Hayes notes a top-secret CIA report summarized in a Pentagon memo sent to the Senate Intelligence Committee in the fall of 2003: "The Saudi Arabian National Guard went on a kingdom-wide heightened state of alert in late December 2000 after learning that Saddam agreed to assist Al-Qaeda in attacking U.S. and U.K. interests in Saudi Arabia." http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/11/154020.shtml PBS even makes the connection: Richard Perle: This evidence is very powerful. There is collaboration between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, which means to destroy us. It entails chemical weapons, biological weapons, training in their application. And he's working on nuclear weapons. The message is very clear - we have no time to lose, Saddam must be removed from office. Every day that goes by is a day in which we are exposed to dangers on a far larger scale than the tragedy of September 11. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/transcript3.html James P. Rubin: But let's focus in on the materials. The UN came out of Iraq in 1998 and issued a report and guesstimated that there were tens of thousands of missing tons of chemical material and hundreds of liters of biological agent. Those are sitting there now. That's what the threat is. What is the best way, in your opinion, to prevent that material from falling into the hands of the Al Qaeda people in the film he's already trained? http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/transcript5.html James P. Rubin: Well, you've just seen Gwynne Roberts' film. And it raises some very explosive charges. I wonder if you could help us connect the dots. Why should the American people be concerned and what should they think having seen this film? Richard Perle: Well, the thing that is brought home so clearly in this film is the connection among terrorist organizations now implicating Saddam Hussein directly with Al Qaeda, with a global terrorist movement that ultimately wishes to destroy the United States. What I think we're discovering is that terrorists, like criminals, are in touch with one another around the globe. I think if a safe cracker in Phoenix needs a safe cracker in Manchester, England, somehow they connect (Laughs). And the terrorists are connecting. They're working together, they're reinforcing one another, and they're sharing their tradecraft. And the result is that if we are going to prevail over the terrorists, we have to take them seriously wherever they are and we have to take this war to them in their countries, on their territory. Because if we have to stand and fight on our own territory, many Americans will die in the process. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/transcript.html I watched the Gwynne Roberts film mentioned above on PBS that preceeded the Rubin / Perle interview. It included interviews Iraqis who said they witnessed Osama and Al Zawahiri visiting a terrorist training camps in Iraq: Two other men are filmed with their backs to the camera or lurking in shadows. A man who is now a prisoner of the Kurds claims he was an Iraqi intelligence agent and says that Aymar Al Zawahiri, Mr. bin Laden's second in command, met with Mr. Hussein in Iraq in 1992. Even more alarming claims come from an Iraqi whom Mr. Roberts tracks down in Turkey, his identity disguised by a jittery camera in a hotel room that shows his hands, his feet, never his face. He says he worked in a chemical weapons factory near Baghdad and that he actually saw Mr. bin Laden visit a terrorist training camp in Iraq in 1998, when Al Queda members were about to "graduate" from its program." http://www.rwfilms.co.uk/press1.html The the Gwynne Roberts film featured aerial shots of the training camp showing a 707 for training. It was made out of junk parts as evidenced by wings that did not match. PBS does not know what the hell they are talking about. No way Jose, Saddam did not train any Al Qaeda terrorists nor did he have any WMDs, period, case closed. I just saw Edwards say so on TV. Correct me if I am wrong. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 06 Oct 04 - 02:31 AM The Gwynne Roberts film: http://www.rwfilms.co.uk/filmssus.html Utter tripe of course but tell me I am wrong and I will change my opinion. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:59 AM There is only one fact that indicates terrorist training was going on in Iraq, which was the existence ofthe camp you mentioned above in (I believe) northwestern extreme of Iraq, close tot he Iranian border. My understanding is that far from being sponsored by Iraq's government, this part of the cou try wasn't even under Saddam's control. Correct meif I am wrong. Links for Al Qaeda with Iraqw all seem to boil down to one or two meetings. IDeologically and operationally the two were far apart from each other. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:24 AM Arial shot of the 707: http://cshink.com/images/salman_pak3b.jpg http://cshink.com/salman_pak.htm "Salman Pak, a training camp on the Tigris River some 15 miles southeast of Iraq's capital" http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040303.asp "Salman Pak - Iraq's own terrorist training camp Two Iraqi Military defectors, an unnamed former Lt. General and a Captain Sabah Khodada recently gave details of an Iraqi school at Salman Pak which includes training for the hijacking of passenger airliners and other modes of transportation. The former Iraqi General said that there was a old Boeing 707 resting next to rail tracks on edge of Salman Pak being used in terrorist training, the existence of this aircraft has been confirmed by UN. Inspectors. The General, who had been the Security Officer in charge of the camp also reported that there were mixed nationality units including Saudi's, Egyptians and Chechens at Salman Pak. Usually about 40 strong, these terrorist units received upto five months of intensive training. However the terrorist units were actually under the control of Iraq's Al- Mukhabarat Intelligence Service and in particular a section called the Division of Special Operations. Much of this was also confirmed by Captain Khodada. The foreign fighters were segregated from Iraqi military personnel and Saddam Husseins own Fedayeen, except during certain specific training sessions. The overall training program included assassination, kidnapping, sabotage or hijacking of aircraft, buses, trains, sabotage of public utilities and most importantly of all, in the use of Chemical, Biological and possibly crude nuclear devices. However, the training also included how to prepare and carry out suicide attacks and involved how to get access to the flight cabin, getting weapons on board, security weakness, terrorizing the passengers and crew. Captain Khodada stated " Those 'Arabs' are real volunteers. They come in small numbers, and they come with the intention to do some real suicidal operations. " http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/National_Security/wwwboard/messages/826.html Just lies planted by pro Bush goons. I guess. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:35 AM Thanks for the link, OG -- looks like I had that camp located in the wrong place. I am also a bit confused by the information on Slaman Pak -- if the stories of terrorist training there, and direct connection to Saddam of part of the camp, have not been discreidted, why is the administration not mentioning them? If they are true, they aree critical tot he adminisitrations defense against serious charges, but they aren't being trotted out. Strange. What do you make of that? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:46 PM I think the CIA is bogged down so bad they are screwing up big time. The CIA is evidently concentrating on preventing attacks in the US instead of worring about old intelligence in other countrys. With more people in the world doing more bad things there is an intelligence overload in all countrys. One thing that will shed some light on how Al Qaeda is being financed is the investigation into the Oil For Food scandal. I think it will connect all of the dots between the UN, Saddam, Syria, Russia, France, Germany and Al Qaeda. The UN is doing everything they can to block the investigation. Just my opinion, subject to correction. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:54 PM Thanks, OG. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Morticalia Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:35 PM " I want Mr. non-asshole Kerry to fix everything he says is broke like he says he will. God ... help him if he does not." He won't fix it. He'll make it worse. He'll tax your asses off to support the crack whores spouting out children in the ghettos, and fuck up the military so that my friends father cannot be honorably discharged like he is supposed to be this summer, he'll allow abortion (a catholic supporting abortion. inconceivable) and allow any knocked-up dipshit to flush her child out. Abortion is only permissible if the mother is in danger or the kid is a product of rape or incest. I think that a doctor (a qualified one, dammit) should have to prove that one of the three aforementioned instances apply, and then, only then, should the mother end the life of the child, and in sanitary, safe conditions. go to www.abortiontv.com, and you'll see what i mean about how bad abortion is. life starts from conception. abortion murders a human being. the mother feels it. the child feels it. and whatever divine force there may be, that force will punish those who condone and participate in abortion. anyway, kerry will fuck it all up. even his face makes me wish to do violence against him, that smirking, look-at-me-i'm-so-awesome-please-make-me-require-facial-reconstruction-surgery look that you see so often. argh. i hate him. he'll fuck up this country. mark my words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:08 PM In the beginning there was light. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:31 PM . . . and then there was Con-Ed. And then there was Dubya. And darkness descended on the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 06 Oct 04 - 11:48 PM Gee, Moritcalia.... You seem awful ready to rush to judgment on very little data. IF your friend's father is in active duty, he has already spent a lot longer in servioce than he thought he would have to. And Kerry had nothing to do with it. He's not the type to fuck things up, and your ravings are a little off, IMHO. Where are you getting your data from? Sesame Street? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM John Kerry says he will submit everything to a global test before the US takes action. Then a few seconds later he says he will never give anyone a veto over the security of the United States. These are not conflicting statements. He and only he can do both at the same time. Let's elect him so he can get on to doing these incredible things. I cold possibly be wrong on this. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:23 AM Old Guy: Oh, come on. Those two principles are not contradictory but they could be under special circumstances, especially if the manager in charge of interpreting them was a s dumb as a rock. But that would not be the case as you describe it. As for your man Bush -- he seriously compromised the security of the United States because he just couldn't wait to use his new troops, could he. How many lives could he have saved finding another course of action to effect regime change? Or perhaps human lives are not the senior good in your world? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:19 PM Maybe it's Cheney who is blocking the investigation of the UN's oil for food program: "However, during his time as CEO, Halliburton was selling millions of dollars to Iraq in supplies for its oil industry. The deals were done through old subsidiaries of Dresser Industries. It was done under the auspices of the corrupt UN Oil for Food Program. Halliburton worked with Iran and Libya as well, using its own subsidiaries." http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/dickcheney/vice.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,old guy Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:26 PM Does anybody think that Kerry's opposition the the war is causing the insurgents in Iraq to think they can win if they kill enough Americans and behead enough hostages? Does a divided America give the insurgents hope that they can win? Hell no. In past wars this situation could have caused the enemy to believe they have a better chance of winning. But in this particular circumstance it is Bush that is the sole cause of the stubborn insurgency and the epicenter of any problems that face America today. Bush is not a true patriot like Kerry. He does not have the vision and foresight that Kerry has. Let's elect Kerry so he can see into the future and prevent such things from happening. At least Kerry won't have anybody harping at him about being wrong on everything. In the mean time if more Americans die due to the nature of the campaign, it will be for greater good of America if Kerry gets elected. This could be the wrong conclusion though. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:28 PM he'll allow abortion (a catholic supporting abortion. inconceivable) and allow any knocked-up dipshit to flush her child out This is already allowed, Morticalia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:48 PM It takes a LOT of gall, Old Guy, to decide that the insanities of this war should be blamed on someone who is opposed to it, or thinks there were serious errors in starting it. The idea that Kerry's more moderate approach is causing insurgency is about as batty as my Aunt Matilda whom we had to keep in an outhouse. Americans are not dying because somebody with some brains calls bullshit on the warmongers. The warmongers began and fostered the war. Get off it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:01 PM The US should eliminate, entirely, the use of the word "win" when describing what we want to accomplish in Iraq. "Succeed" is a word that we can use appropriately but, based on what the Bush administration has used as a major justification for attacking Iraq; the promotion of freedom and democracy for the people of Iraq, the only "winners" in this equation should be the Iraqi people. Old Guy, you really are a piece of work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:13 PM Morticalia: "He'll tax your asses off to support the crack whores spouting out children in the ghettos, and fuck up the military so that my friends father cannot be honorably discharged like he is supposed to be this summer, he'll allow abortion (a catholic supporting abortion. inconceivable) and allow any knocked-up dipshit to flush her child out. Abortion is only permissible if the mother is in danger or the kid is a product of rape or incest. I think that a doctor (a qualified one, dammit) should have to prove that one of the three aforementioned instances apply, and then, only then, should the mother end the life of the child, and in sanitary, safe conditions. go to www.abortiontv.com, and you'll see what i mean about how bad abortion is. life starts from conception. abortion murders a human being. the mother feels it. the child feels it. and whatever divine force there may be, that force will punish those who condone and participate in abortion. "anyway, kerry will fuck it all up. even his face makes me wish to do violence against him, that smirking, look-at-me-i'm-so-awesome-please-make-me-require-facial-reconstruction-surgery look that you see so often. argh. i hate him. he'll fuck up this country. mark my words. " MG, there is a Mudcat rule against taking out TWO membership names. *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:41 PM Ebbie: I think Morticalia is different from MG -- she is a reactionary, robotic, right-wing nutcase who happens to be a sixteen year old girl, parroting the delusions of others. MG is male. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM The New York Times presents the argument that Saddam was involved in intentionally bluffing about his WMDs, in order to look strong when he was not. (It is perfectly understandable that Bush would fall for such a maneuver, being himself guilty of the same practice for the same reason. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: TIA Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:00 PM And his bluffing was aimed at intimidating Iran - not even the USA! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Denny Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:22 PM If Bush were elected and were to drop dead ( or was impeached for lying )Cheney would be more than willing to take the helm. NOW THAT WOULD BE A REAL ARROGANT ARSEHOLE !!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 07 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM I know, Amos. *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Don Firth Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:19 PM I just took another look at the title of this thread. After watching the Cheney-Edwards debate on Tuesday, then after the release of the Duelfer Report, hearing a news-clip of Bush still insisting that he was "right to take action against Saddam Hussein," I can't think of two more arrogant assholes than George W. Bush and Dick Cheney! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:08 PM "In this era of contentious political campaigns, one becomes almost numb to the spin, the half-truths and the distortions of public records and private information. However, even today, candidates and campaigns can go too far. In my opinion, we have witnessed one of those times. Last week, Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi came to address Congress. In his address, he cited the progress and improvements being made jointly by the Iraqis and the Americans. Conspicuous in his absence in the Joint Session of Congress, John Kerry not only failed to meet with Allawi privately; he also took the opportunity in his response to Allawi's speech to call him a puppet and basically accuse the man of lying. Joe Lockhart, a Kerry campaign spokesman, was quoted as saying, ''You can almost see the hand underneath the shirt today moving the lips.'' How despicable! Allawi was then forced to issue a statement defending himself and his words. Again, despicable. This makes one want to ask the question, ''Which side are they on?'' ''Are they for our side?'' Then, I realize that they are actually for themselves. It seems as if the quest for power is worth anything, even our failure in Iraq. Allawi is thanking America, and the left seems to be choking on his words. To the left, it seems as if it would be better for the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to not be liberated than for a Bible-reading conservative from Texas to have done the liberating. The contempt the Kerry campaign displayed toward Mr. Allawi was utterly deplorable. The idea of trading our success in Iraq for a return to power is much, much worse. Art Darden" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,TIA Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:12 PM Has Mr. Darden bothered to read what Mr. Allawi said to the Iraqis once he was back in Iraq? It sounded a lot like what Kerry has been saying. Go read it for yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,peedeecee Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:18 PM Art Darden, before you knock Kerry for criticizing Allawi's speech, a little research is in order. 1) Find out what Allawi was before the Americans picked him to become Iraq's interim leader. (Hint: he worked for Saddam.) 2) Find out exactly how much of an American hand-picked puppet Allawi actually is. (Hint: 100%.) 3) Find out who wrote the speech that Allawi gave on his visit to the US. (Hint: the White House.) Don't jump to conclusions before finding out what the truth is -- Allawi is an American tool. I have no axe to grind here, btw. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:22 AM The USA is not going to "win" the war in Iraq no matter who is president. The war in Iraq is unwinnable. It will continue until foreign troops leave, and it will probably continue after that as well...for some time. You can always find a fool who justifies further bloodletting on the basis of justifying previous bloodletting...so that "our boys didn't die in vain". Ha! They all die in vain. Every last one of them. Most of the Iraquis who have been killed also died in vain. Perhaps all of them too....but at least they have a real reason to fight!. They're defending their own national sovereignty and their culture against a foreign invader who launched an illegal war over WMD's that did not exist in order to take control of their oil!!! Every American that ever dies on Iraqi soil WILL die in vain. By definition. You cannot NOT die in vain when you are the tool of an aggressor in an unjust war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 08 Oct 04 - 01:00 AM "Iraqi secret police were sent to assassinate Allawi in London in 1978, bursting into his bedroom and hacking him with an ax. He suffered serious injuries and spent nearly a year in a hospital. He continues to walk with a limp because of injuries to his leg suffered in the attack." http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Ayad_Allawi "Baghdad, As-Sabah, Sep7 , p.1 Hundreds of demonstrators have gathered in front of the Iraqi government headquarters to demonstrate against violence and show support to Dr. Ayad Alawi government.The demonstrators urged the international community to demand the neighboring countries not to interfere in the Iraqi affairs.A record fifty civil society organizations, trade unions and women organizations took part in the demonstration." "Baghdad, As-Sabah, Sep7 , p.3 German Company Heidelberg has expressed readiness to supply Baghdad University with a modern printing machine as a gift, sources at the university announced.In a statement to As-Sabah, Coordination and Follow-up Director General at the University Dr. Mohammed Al-Etabi said the German government will bear the costs of sending and installing the printing machine, pointing out that final touches for implementing this project have been put during contacts held with the said company.He said that the machine is a very developed one that could produce twenty million books annually, adding that the university is in need of such machine to print curriculum books, the student's guide and books in all fields. " http://www.alsabaah.com/20040907/english.htm "She came to Cleveland Wednesday, she said, to do what she can to ensure Americans see her view of the war. For the first time, drinkable water flows from the kitchen faucet, her three children attend a decent school, and market bins brim with products she'd never seen: cell phones, bananas and Pepsi. I say to the U.S. Army, Thank you very much,' " said al-Fadhal, a bubbly, round-faced woman with a shy smile. "For they put their lives on the line to give us this." http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1096537051218231.xml "Al-Fadhal and Baban insisted that much of the unrest in Iraq today is being instigated by outsiders, including al-Qaida operatives. Al-Fadhal lamented that much of what the world sees are her country's continuing problems. "You don't see the good," she said. "Yes, there is terrorism, violence and bombs, but we can send our children to school. A teacher who was paid $5 a month under Saddam gets $400 a month. A child care worker who got $1 a month is paid $50 a month. ... People can go to work. Their lives are going on. "The security situation is a big problem, but if we can find an answer to it, there will be a lot of good." In the meantime, she's thankful for U.S. troops. "We want them to stay. ... I pray to God to return them all safely," Al-Fadhal said." http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/newssummary/s_256300.html "A wedding boom is under way as salaries rise and the old restrictions no longer apply. By Dhiya Rasan in Baghdad (ICR No. 82, 06-Sep-04) "Today I am free, and I will marry the woman I love," declared 28-year-old Baghdad baker Mohammed Abdullah. Soon came signs that the wedding had taken place: the zaghrouta the traditional ululation of joy sounded from the courtroom, and a shower of chocolates was tossed into the street by Abdullah's relatives. Abdullah is one of the many Iraqis who have got married in what officials say is a post-war wedding boom brought on by rising salaries and the end of restrictions on marriage imposed by the former regime." http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/irq/irq_82_3_eng.txt "A document discovered by Iraq's interim government details a meeting between the man behind the September 11 attacks and Abu Nidal, the Palestinian terrorist, at his Baghdad training camp. Con Coughlin reports" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/14/wterr114.xml We have a lot of work to do to dispell this pack of lies. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 08 Oct 04 - 04:51 PM Just to point out, Old Guy, you are distorting yet again. You use the following quote: "Iraqi secret police were sent to assassinate Allawi in London in 1978, bursting into his bedroom and hacking him with an ax. He suffered serious injuries and spent nearly a year in a hospital. He continues to walk with a limp because of injuries to his leg suffered in the attack." to suggest that Allawi did not work for Saddam. In fact, by many accounts he was "hit" because he was a wayward agent of Saddam's secret police. Here's a more complete quote: Allawi was an active supporter of the Iraqi Ba'ath Party in its early days when it was still banned. In 1971, he moved to London in order to continue his medical education. Some have reported this as an exile, but some of Allawi's old counterparts have claimed that he continued to serve the Baath Party, and the Iraqi secret police, searching out enemies of the regime. During this time he was president of the Iraqi Student Union in Europe. Seymour Hersh quotes former CIA officer Vincent Cannistraro: "[...] Allawi has blood on his hands from his days in London [...] he was a paid Mukhabarat agent for the Iraqis, and he was involved in dirty stuff." A Middle Eastern diplomat confirmed that Allawi was involved with a Mukhabarat "hit team" that killed Baath Party dissenters in Europe. However, he resigned from the Baath party for undisclosed reasons in 1975. [1] (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040628fa_fact) At first Saddam, then Iraq's deputy president, pressured Allawi, who was in contact with senior military and party officers that were increasingly critical of Saddam, to rejoin Ba'ath. In 1978, friends told Allawi that his name was on a liquidation list. In February 1978 Allawi was awoken in bed one night by an intruder in his Surrey home, who proceeded to attack him with an axe. The intruder left, convinced that Allawi was dead. He survived the attempted murder, and spent the next year in hospital recovering from his injuries. It is presumed that the attack was an assassination attempt ordered by Saddam Hussein. [2] So we should be happy that he is president because he, like so many other brutal agents of the Ba'ath secret police, were targeted by Saddam? I don't think so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:07 PM Nerd: I was told to keep it short. Is it too short now? Please specify the correct length. As requested, the link is there so you can read the entire story about how he worked for Saddam. http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Ayad_Allawi Where did I imply that he did not work for Saddam? I am trying to illustrate that he is not a Saddam Loyalist. Have you been getting enough fiber in your diet? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:30 PM Are you ignoring me because, since I despise both the Democratic AND Republican parties, you feel I'm not partisan enough for this discussion? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 08 Oct 04 - 09:03 PM Little Hawk: You sure as hell can't win when you believe you can't win. Ask George Washington. Did you know that in that day and time people who undermined the government were charged with sedition? "The Alien and Sedition Acts granted the federal government unprecedented power to infringe upon the liberty of individuals." http://www.sparknotes.com/testprep/books/sat2/history/chapter7section3.rhtml If you read a little higer up you will see that I also dispise the two party system but right now we have no other choice but to pick a candidate and vote. I decide which candidate I like the best. I tend to think less of a wishy washy gloom and doom candidate with perfect vision in the rearview mirror that accuses the opposition of lying. I tend to think more of an upbeat humble candidate There are and were democrats and republicans That I like. Read upward. Everybody should be able to go with whom they like and not who their "Gang" tells them to support. All of this is subject to correction. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:25 PM Yes, Old Guy, I understand your position. You said: "You sure as hell can't win when you believe you can't win. Ask George Washington. Did you know that in that day and time people who undermined the government were charged with sedition?" Uh-huh. But it's all very subjective. It depends who's looking and from what angle. It depends whether you believe a war is necessary or even right in the first place. I don't think this Iraq war was either necessary or right. If I did believe it was both necessary and right for the USA to be in Iraq, then of course I would support staying and "winning" (if I thought it was possible to win). Now, consider this: Hitler thought he could win in World War II. Tojo thought he could win also. The British in 1775-1779 DEFINITELY thought they could win (when had they ever lost before?)! Hitler, Tojo, and the British did not favour pessimism, defeatism, or appeasement....and they still LOST anyway. Do you understand why I smile a little when I hear people say "you can't win when you believe you can't win"? The pages of history are littered with people who espoused the totally determined attitude you are recommending...and still LOST. On the other hand, Castro never doubted he could win the Cuban revolution, despite being hugely outnumbered at the beginning, heavily outgunned, and in exile in Mexico. He still won! (this would appear, ironically, to support your statement, but I imagine you don't like Castro). You see, your line of reasoning is totally arbitrary...it works when it works, it doesn't when it doesn't. It's not a rule that actually means a darned thing. It's just a convenient form of rhetoric when you don't want to admit something has turned out to be a bad idea...or when you are afraid to show "weakness". People who insist on hanging in there on what is a bad idea are just people who end up looking like even bigger losers when their bubble finally bursts. If you think opposing a war is sedition, then you are in complete agreement with people like Hitler, Tojo, Churchill, Stalin, FDR, Castro, Mao Tse Tung...hell, every national leader prefers not to hear anti-war talk when he's fighting a war. :-) Naturally. This, however, was not a war of self-defence the USA fought in Iraq, it was a war of choice by the USA against a desperately weak opponent who was no real threat at all. For loyal Americans to automatically support a war of choice which most of the World opposed...tell me how that is different from Germans in 1939 supporting a war of choice against Poland, which most of the World opposed? How is it different? I know how it's different to you. You subjectively believe that the USA is "good" and it's only defending itself by launching that war of choice. Germans in 1939 believed that Germany was good and was only defending itself by attacking Poland. They DID believe that. They were wrong. They had been fooled. Thank your lucky stars that your country has not yet gone far enough down the road to hell that its free citizens cannot still openly question and oppose a war that they think is a bad idea. Would you prefer that they be arrested, imprisoned, or shot for opposing this war? Watch it. You may get what you wish for...enforced consensus at the point of a gun. Like I said, it's all subjective. You will naturally support those whom you think are the "good guys". You and I just honestly have a difference of perception about who the good guys are. You see America defending itself against terrorists. I see a bunch of huge energy corporations securing vital oil resources by lying to you and every other American citizen about what they are really up to. One of us is wrong. Well, it's not a crime to be wrong, but it was a crime on the part of the USA to launch a phony pre-emptive war against a small country that was already so militarily weakened by previous war and sanctions that it could not effectively fight a war against anyone, let alone against the USA. It's just ridiculous. It's as ridiculous as Hitler's phony propaganda in 1939 that had German citizens convinced Poland had to be "taken out" to protect German citizens! And they believed it! And Hitler did not cave in...or give way to pessimism...or listen to the naysayers. No sir. He went the distance. Is this then a sign of character...or is it a sign of blindness? Arrogance? Inability to face reality? Fear to admit to weakness or error? When people win, they are praised for having shown such stubbornness. When they lose, they are eternally damned by it. Thus falls the subjective judgement of history on leaders who win...and leaders who lose the wars of aggression they freely launch. For once, try to see the other guy in your shoes...and then tell Moktada al Sadr or Osama Bin Laden the same thing: "You sure as hell can't win when you believe you can't win." They too believe they can win. Are they to be praised for it? Are those who voice doubts against their belief seditious? The other guy, Old Man, is the same as you. He too, believes in his heart that he is defending what is right, good, and true. I say: what is right is NOT to attack other people by choice, NEVER to attack other people by choice, NOT to launch wars upon other nations and occupy their land. Because every human being is as valuable as any other human being in the sight of God. Every nation's territory is inviolate and should not be invaded. Americans are not more valuable than Iraqis. Americans just have more money and bigger weapons. Do you think the World feared Iraq in 2003? Ha! The World fears the USA. The World fears what the USA will do next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Denny Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM What the world fears that the USA will do next will be to return your current leaders to office. It is indeed dangerous to have moronic arseholes like Bush and Cheney in such powerful positions. You have about 300 million citizens to choose from . You were able to put men on the Moon and rovers on Mars. You have a great country with many, many fine minds. Now I ask: "Where in hell did you find these two twirps?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:02 AM George Washington's greatest strength as a General in the Revolutionary War was in knowing when to retreat. He actually didn't win all that many battles. He just knew how to preserve his forces long enough to outlast his enemy by running away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:51 AM People want to talk war. George Washington retreated in some battles but won the war. He did not end the war and suddenly have the British leave. As a matter of fact the British came back later on in another war and Andy Jackson whupped them again. Then they left us alone. I have great respect for JFK because he faced down the Soviets in Cuba. The Soviets ran away to fight another day but who won in the end? There have been people the thought they could win but lost anyway. Has the inverse ever happened? Believing you can win is the most important element to winning a war but it is not the only element. How can an anti-war president win a war? What kind of message does this can't win mind set send to the terrorists? "Attention terrorists: The American people believe they can't win this war. Just keep fighting and we will give up. Come to Iraq and help us loose." What kind of message does it send to Americans and their allies fighting and dying in Iraq? "Attention Americans and allies: You can't win this war. Keep on fighting and dying though because China, Russia, Germany and France are coming to help." What kind of message does it send to Iran and Syria? "Attention Syria and Iran: You have America and the allies where you wanted them. Saddam is gone but they cannot stabilize the country and form a new democratic government because they lack the determination. Keep sending money (that was skimmed off of the Oil For Food program), weapons , explosives and jihadists to feed the insurgency. Soon the Anti-war element in America will prevail over the pro-war element and they will leave. It worked in Viet Nam and it will work here. They will give up you will have a civil war. Then Iraq can be divided up. The west for Syria (sunni), the east for Iran (shia) and the north for the Kurds and Kurdistan. Baghdad will be a never ending battle ground like Jerusalem." What kind of message does it send to the people in Iraq? "Attention people of Iraq: Those of you who want a free democratic country are not going to get it because the American people believe it is not possible. Do not bother to help defeating the insurgency because it is a waste of time" The present enemy is adept at using the press and the news to their advantage. They tape the beheadings and so forth to wear down our resistance like brain washing. People automatically look at the bad things that over shadow the good things. Then the terrorists achieve their objective. They win, we loose. If we admit defeat and give in to their demands it tells them their methods are working. How many beheadings will this cause down the road? I would not be surprised it terrorists are watching this discussion board and others in order to gage the determination of the American people. What do you think their reaction is when they read "We can't win". It is the same reaction the North Vietnamese had when they heard Kerry's anti-war testimony. This defeatist attitude has not done any good for anyone at any time. If you think we are all doomed, here, drink this Kool Aid and end it all. I could be wrong about all of this. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:35 PM You misunderstand the circumstances in the War of 1812, Old Guy. It wasn't that the British "came back" again...it was that a bunch of glory-seeking American politicians decided the time was ripe to add Canada (British North America) to the territory of the USA. They did not succeed. We British whupped YOU guys...every single time you attempted to invade Canada in that war. The proof of that is that Canada still exists as an independent country. We also went down to Washington and burnt down the White House in that war. The USA won some small naval battles, and the British won some small naval battles here and there. The British Navy pretty much cleaned the US merchant marine off the oceans for a bit there, but Oliver Hazard Perry did quite well for the USA in the naval combat on the Great Lakes. The final battle of the War of 1812-14 occurred at New Orleans, after the war was already officially over! (but the combatants had not gotten the news yet...) Andrew Jackson did win that one. Because it is really the only very significant land battle that the USA managed to win in that fiasco of a war, your historians have clung to it as a sort of pathetic fig leaf to stick over the naked fact that the War of 1812 was a complete failure for the USA...it failed in its main and only strategic objective, which was to occupy Canada and add it to the territory of the USA. The only British objective in that war was to defend Canada and retaliate against the American attacks. They did that most successfully. The attacks on Washington and New Orleans were not an attempt to occupy the USA, they were raids conducted by Britain because Britain had a dominant navy and could raid wherever the hell they wanted to in order to tie up and trouble the American forces. After we burned Washington, we got back on the ships and sailed away....so obviously we were not there to occupy the USA or conquer it. The War of 1812 was launched by the USA, hoping to take advantage of an England which was perceived as being tied down in Europe and ripe for the picking (of Canada). That war failed in its objectives. Your politicians and historians are simply not honest enough to dream of telling your schoolchildren the sorry truth about it, so they cling to a useless victory that happened after the war was officially over, because it's the only frigging significant victory they could salvage out of that war! Given the fact that you were brought up in the American school system, I'm not surprised your awareness of the War of 1812 is...somewhat limited. I was in the American school system between age 10 and 19. I have never seen such a lopsided barrage of self-serving propaganda in my life. You see, there's a problem here. You've got the idea that the USA is the victim here, that it is the USA that's under attack. Not so! The USA was not under attack in 1812, the USA was the aggressor, seeking to gain land to the north. The USA was not under attack by Iraq either in 2003, the USA was the aggressor, seeking to gain oil...and personal revenge for George Bush on "the guy who tried to kill my dad". Most of the terrorists in the World today are an aftereffect of 3 basic things: a) aggressive American empire-building b) aggressive Russian empire-building c) aggressive Israeli land-grabbing You have got the wrong idea, Old Guy, about who threw the first stone in every one of those conflicts and about who the real injured parties are. Americans are not the injured party....they are the party that dominates, robs, and terrorizes the World with weapons of mass destruction while spouting hackneyed platitudes that hardly anyone believes anymore about "freedom" and "liberty" and other stuff that they think they invented or something. It's just pathetic. Wake up and take responsibility, for God's sake. The USA's actions have created most of the World's most dangerous terrorists as a direct result of its own intervention in other people's lives all over the World. The USA is Doctor Frankenstein, now being menaced by the very monster he himself created in the first place. You guys ARE the number 1 terrorists (your government is, I mean, not your private citizens...your private citizens are just ordinary, decent people who have been badly misinformed). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM goes on a bit this thread, don't it.... let us consider the semantics of this question. The asshole (not the actual ass) is a useful orifice for the disposal of waste products and on occasions sexual gratification. Now then can such an orifice be said to have an attitude, one such as arrogance. I rest my case , why the whole thing is a nonsense If you are still worried about the upcoming election, I think I can tell you (from experience) that the bloke you vote for is probabbly all right, and even if he doesn't win, he should have done. I hope this sets some minds at rest on this difficult question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:09 PM Old Guy, because of what terrorism is, by definition, you can't win a war against it unless you kill everybody on earth. Openly acknowleging this fact does not provide terrorists one bit of assistance. To suggest otherwise probably provides terrorists with a great deal of comfort because they know that anyone who believes they can "win a war against terrorism" is an idiot. Terrorism is a tactic. Nothing more, nothing less. The US uses terror as a tactic all the time. Some of us have said repeatedly that terrorists (those who want to see the US brought low, at any rate) love it when people like President Bush use strong-arm tactics around the world because those tactics, and Bush himself, are the best terrorist recruiting tools in the world. What George Washington did that we can learn from, is how to be willing and able to adjust tactics on the ground to match the reality on the ground. George Bush and his people are remarkably ineffectual at this. Otherwise, they wouldn't have made the same mistake in Afghanistan that previous presidents made; the ones that resulted in the Taliban's rise to power in that country after the Soviet Union pulled out. I'm not saying that I know for a certainty that Kerry would do better. I don't know that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:49 PM Little Hawk: I do remember something about the US invading Canada and failing but I think Britain did certain causative things like seizing 1000 American ships and impressing over 10,000 american sailors before any invasion and before the war was declared. http://home.earthlink.net/~gfeldmeth/chart.1812.html "The United States declared War on Great Britain on June 12, 1812. The war was declared as a result of long simmering disputes with Great Britain. The central dispute surrounded the impressment of American soldiers by the British. The British had previously attacked the USS Chesapeake and nearly caused a war two years earlier. In addition, disputes continued with Great Britain over the Northwest Territories and the border with Canada. Finally, the attempts of Great Britain to impose a blockade on France during the Napoleonic Wars was a constant source of conflict with the United States." http://www.multied.com/1812/declares.html I remember something about a song written about a battle in Baltimore wherein the British left abruptly. Then there was a peace treaty that the participants of the Battle of New Orleans were not aware of. Andrew Jackson soundly defeated the British Army in that battle, 700 British killed, 1400 wounded. U.S. losses: 8 killed, 13 wounded. Also referred in that neck of the woods to as an ass whupping. The British did win some battles and burned Washington but which side decided they could not win? My point is this: You can't win a battle if you think you can't win. All of the doomsday can't win defeatists might as well drink the Kool Aid and end it all. I don't think President bush made the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan after the Soviets decided they couldn't win and left. They had elections there today for the first time in their history. Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG. Good show Kerry, win those allies and international respect. Asshole also refers to an the attitude of a person who is only concerned with their status in life and well being at the expense of others. They think they are better (translate to smarter) than others and deserve more. I could be seriously mistaken. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:27 PM Agreed, there were a number of reasons that led up to the War of 1812. Britain's efforts to blockade Napoleon's empire in Europe led directly to friction with the United States at that time...and that was really, I think, inevitable under the circumstances. I think the Americans had a right to be upset about the British actions at sea, but I also think they used it as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway...invade and annex British North America...and they figured the British were too involved in Europe to be able to stop them. They were overly optimistic in that regard. The British defeat at New Orleans was due to the British commander very foolishly hurling his men across open ground at a very well prepared American defensive position...and they got slaughtered. He was obviously overly optimistic too. :-) What you had there was some bad miscalculations on both sides. Nobody won that war in any decisive way, it was effectively a draw. It secured no real gains for either side. I don't think either of them decided "We can't win." they just both decided it wasn't worth continuing with the thing...and they were absolutely right about that. It was a war that never should have been fought (similar to most wars in that regard). Here's one side effect that I'd say both sides did gain, though: Useful combat experience for their navies. The Americans had designed and built the world's most effective frigates by far at that time and it gave the British quite a shock when they lost some frigate-to-frigate actions with the American ships. This was a valuable wake-up call for the British Navy which had grown complacent and used to defeating any and all opponents on almost every occasion. Captain Broke of the Shannon did defeat the American ship Chesapeake, due to the fact that he had drilled his men to an absolute peak of efficiency for some time prior to that action, and that time it was the American commander who was complacent and got a surprise. It was said to be the fiercest engagement between 2 lone ships of that entire era. Anway, as you said, "you can't can't win a battle if you think you can't win". Agreed. At least, you're sure not likely to win it... But you can lose a battle even when you think you can win it...and if the battle is a very dumb idea in the first place then why should people not criticize the decisions that led to it? The difference here is, you think attacking Iraq was justified, and I don't think so. I will not support a war that I think is unjustified aggression, and I will not be called a "defeatist" for objecting to a war that I am opposed to on principle. Nor should others be called defeatists for doing that. They would be defeatists if they thought that their own ideals were not worth fighting for...not because they believe your ideals are not worth fighting for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:49 PM Excuse me, but it was Canadians who burned Washington. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:56 PM Well, we were part of the British Empire at that time, so either way it works, right? It was the redcoats who burnt down the White House. Damn fine job too! As for Andrew Jackson, he was a genocidal bastard who killed a whole lot of Indians and stole their land. I am really sorry that the British did not wipe him off the face of the Earth at New Orleans. They'd have done the World a big favour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:19 PM OK, then. We'll burn it next time. Flick of my Bic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:07 AM I don't think President bush made the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan after the Soviets decided they couldn't win and left. This withdrawal was hardly the only factor in bringing about the rise of the Taliban and its subsequent rule in Afghanistan. Blame for that state of affairs (or credit, however you want to look at it), can be given to Presidents Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and Bill Clinton. They had elections there today for the first time in their history. Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG. Good show Kerry, win those allies and international respect. Do you have any actual quotes from Kerry on this subject, or are you just putting your own words into his mouth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:19 PM Old Guy: If you were trying to illustrate that Allawi was not a Saddam loyalist then you were rebutting a claim nobody made. No one on this thread said he was a Saddam loyalist. They said he used to work for Saddam and was now Bush's tool. You have said nothing that refutes that, but you did put in a brief and out-of context quote that suggests he didn't work for Saddam. I'll accept your claim that you did this inadvertently, and REALLY were just irrelevantly refuting a point no one made. You could be completely wrong about all this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:47 PM Rule Britannia! Britannia rules the waves. "The poem "Rule Britannia" by James Thomson (1700-48) was put to music by Thomas Augustine Arne (around 1740) and is sung as an unofficial national anthem." http://www.britannia.com/history/rulebrit.html I am waiting for some positive words to come out if Kerry's mouth. I haven't heard him say anything positive about progress in Afghanistan except to blabber about letting Osama get away and about the opium crop being better than ever because of Bush. A very progressive attitude that is sure to win friends and influence people. I don't like they way Indians were taken advantage of and I don't like the fact that slavery was just matter of fact back then. But this is now and the struggle against terrorism must be pursued or we will pay a much larger price in the future. Howard got re-elected in Australia. Score one for the Coalition. People keep claiming that Bush and Chaney said Saddam was involved in 9/11. All I have seen and heard is that Bush and Chaney said there were connections between Al Qaeda and Iraq and that to invade Iraq was part of the war on terror. "But at the time President Bush said, "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11 [attacks]. What the vice president said was that he has been involved with Al Qaeda." "The independent, bipartisan panel that investigated the attacks released its final report July 22. The 9/11 commission found there were numerous contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda in the 1990s, but it said those contacts did not result in a "collaborative relationship." http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/12/kerry.powell.iraq/ Even if you point not that they did not say it, people respond by saying that is what they wanted us to believe even though that is not exactly what they said. In other words they are reading their own meaning into their statements to attack Bush. I have never believed that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and I have seen or heard nothing from Bush, Chaney or anybody to make me believe that Saddam was involved 9/11. I do believe Saddam supported terrorism. One small example is that he paid the familys of Palestinian suicide bombers $25,000 for services rendered. $25 grand is a fortune to those people. Any body that keeps beating on Bush for lying to the American public about Saddam's involvement in 9/11 is doing so with malice created by John anti-Bush Kerry as a ploitical election strategy. I could be all wrong on this. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:50 PM Nerd: And you are refuting a point that I never made. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:51 PM So you were just putting your own words in Kerry's mouth. Ok. I'll keep that tactic in mind whenever I read your posts in future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:01 PM "They had elections there today for the first time in their history. Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG. Good show Kerry, win those allies and international respect." Show me words I am putting in Kerry's mouth? I say there is an absense of any positive words. I could have over looked some positive words. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM Well, here's how politics works in an adversarial (partisan) system: The incumbent defends everything he ever did...positive statements...and attacks his opponent over various supposed weaknesses and fallacies...negative statements. The challenger attacks everything the incumbent ever did...negative statements...and proposes things he would do instead if elected...positive statements. The only reason that everything Kerry says sounds negative to you, Old Guy, is that you don't like Kerry in the first place. If your primary dislike was for Bush, then you would see it the other way around, and everthing Bush said would sound negative (or stupid) to you. It's subjective, according to one's initial partisan prejudices. And that is the disease of party-driven politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:31 PM Here you go, Old Guy: Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG. Take note of the bolded words. Are you saying that Kerry has said that everything Bush has done is wrong, or are you saying that in order to get elected, Kerry will have to say that? If you are saying that Kerry has said that, you are putting words in Kerry's mouth. If you're saying Kerry will have to say that in order to get elected, you are using your idea of what Kerry needs to do in order to get elected, to project what you think he will do. Either way, you're putting words in Kerry's mouth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM If I said "Kerry has said" then I would be saying what Kerry has said. I said Kerry's strategy is to say everything Bush has done is wrong. That is all I have heard him say. I think the reason is because that is his strategy to get elected. If he has ever said anything positive, I missed it. I was optimistic about Dean. Edwards and Kerry. I asked myself If we are to have a democrat for President which one would be best? The other candidates were totally out of the question. After hearing the Dean scream, Finding out Edwards is a Medical liability lawyer and watching Kerry evolve into an arrogant asshole I have decided none of them are acceptable. They have driven me to support Bush. I don't follow either party, I choose who I like. To see Kerry put down Alawi right after speaking to Congress was the last straw. He will never win a foreign ally or improve US / foreign relations because of his arrogance. He is a liberal elitist who pretends to be an average guy. Did you see him sucking up to Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson today? I bet his lips are sore. I could be wrong. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:28 PM He's simply doing what every candidate does...at the behest of his party and his handlers...he's trying to make his opponent look weak, misguided, and incompetent. They all do that. Why would this be surprising to you? People like it when their guy does it, they don't like it when the other guy does it. This kind of phony shit has been going on ever since 1780 or thereabouts, and I take it with a grain of salt, I can tell you. Politics is not about morality, goodness, justice, honor, or principle...politics is about power. Raw power. Winning by any means that works. That is what politics is about. You can take the rhetoric and flush it down the toilet, because that is all it's good for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:41 PM As I've said before, I'm not a Kerry supporter, but I have heard him say positive things about Bush. And just this evening, I heard John Edwards say he thinks it's a good thing that Afghanistan held its election. I can understand your wanting to promote the candidate you want for president, but when you post stuff that you can't really back up, you do your candidate more harm than good. I find myself feeling more favorably towards Kerry every time you post, because I know that most of what you're saying is not true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 11 Oct 04 - 11:39 AM Does Kerry or Edwards give any credit to Bush for the election in Afghanistan? Nope, they would rather dwell on things like the opium crop and Tora Bora where they magically know Osama got away. Kerry and Edwards say there is a ban on stem cell research when they are cutting down Bush. What ban? Anybody can do whatever stem cell research they want. There is no ban on stem cell research. There is limited federal funding for stem cell research. This is a half empty / half full situation where Kerry calls a limit a ban. There is a limit to how much welfare one can receive. Is there a ban on welfare? "John Kerry And John Edwards Support Lifting The Ban On Stem Cell Research." http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/health_care/stemcell.html Kerry says about the war in Iraq:"The price-tag so far: $200 billion and rising every day." http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0914.html "One liberal group, the Center for American Progress (CAP), comes up with a higher figure in an August 25 report: "so far, the war has cost the United States $144.4 billion." But that figure is produced by simply padding the OMB's $119 billion figure with $25 billion approved by Congress as an "emergency appropriation" signed into law by Bush on Aug. 5." "Nevertheless, Kerry further pads the $144 billion figure by adding another $60 billion that his campaign says the Bush administration is expected to ask for after the election, as a supplemental appropriation. It is true that the Congressional Budget Office has estimated that an additional $56 billion will be required next fiscal year. But that's money that won't be spent until next year, and even then it's padded with more than $9 billion that doesn't actually apply to Iraq." http://qando.net/archives/004098.htm Kerry said. "I believe it's wrong to be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in the United States of America." http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/kerry.wed/ Local governments open and close firehouses. Local governments have had a decline in collected taxes due to a recession that began in spring 2000 when the Internet bubble burst. So whom is responsible for closing firehouses? Kerry: "His miscalculation was going to war without planning carefully and without the allies that we should have had at our side," Kerry said. "As a result, America has paid nearly 90 percent of the bill in Iraq. Contrast that with the Gulf War, where our allies paid 95 percent of the costs." http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/kerry.wed/ If the first gulf war was done correctly why did he vote against that one and for this one? So, If you believe John Kerry is presenting the facts correctly and giving credit where credit is due, vote for Kerry My position is subject to change. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 04 - 01:05 PM Kerry and Bush are BOTH saying whatever their unscrupulous handlers and advisors are telling them to say, on the supposition that it will win them the frigging election! Get over it, and do something useful with your own life, because neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are EVER going to do anything useful for you. Not ever. They lie like the proverbial set of twin rugs, hoping that they can fool people like you into voting for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Chris Green Date: 11 Oct 04 - 01:24 PM You're right, LH, they're both arseholes. But the difference, for me, is that Bush is a DANGEROUS arsehole. Old Guy, I'm sure Kerry is misrepresenting some facts - it's the nature of the political beast. However, if you're going to get huffy about politicians being "economical with the truth", then I suggest you take no further interest in party politics. Sadly we live in an age where most of the electorate votes for a candidate not because he'll do any good, but because he'll do less harm than the others! That's why, if I were from the far side of the pond, I'd vote Kerry and why Blair doesn't have a flea's chance in a furnace of getting my cross next time round. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 11 Oct 04 - 02:05 PM I agree that Kerry and Edwards do stretch the truth at times, and I don't like it much when they do it either. But they didn't start a thread for that purpose here in the Mudcat... you did. So it's your truth-stretching that I am commenting on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 11 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM Uh, Old Guy, I don't see why you automatically assume that Kerry SHOULD make positive statements about an election in Afghanistan. Remember, Saddam Hussein was routinely "elected" in "elections." Did you praise the Iraqi political system? Unless the Afghan elections prove to be fair and free of fraud, they do not deserve to be validated with anyone's praise. Whether they WERE free and fair is still in dispute, as many candidates are calling for a boycott of the count based on many reports of unfair practices. Furthermore, Bush's claim that 10,000,000 people in Afghanistan registered to vote is in itself a huge red flag: there are only about that many people in Afganistan who would be eligible to vote. In a war-torn country with limited mobility and literacy, it is impossible that 100 percent of eligible voters registered. That means many people registered more than once, which is ALREADY massive voter fraud. What's so positive about this? As for positive things about the President, how about this, Old Guy, from the first debate: "I believe President Bush and I both love our country equally." How about this from the second debate: " Mr. President, it's good to be with you again this evening, sir." or this, also from the second debate: "Obviously the president and I both have very strong convictions. I respect him for that." Isn't that positive? How many positive things has Bush said about Kerry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:14 PM You know, I was just thinking about how much I actually AGREE with Old Guy about. For example: This could be the wrong conclusion though I could be wrong. I could be wrong about all of this I could be all wrong on this I could be seriously mistaken Never a truer word spoken, Old Guy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 11 Oct 04 - 08:25 PM Is Nerd going to vote based on my "I might be wrong" statements? Is Little Hawk not going to vote at all? Should people that don't like the system should not vote? I don't like the political system but I am still going to vote for whom I like the best, not who can tell the biggest whoppers. or who belongs to which party. I don't like people who look in their rear view mirror and pick someone else's work apart while their own work is a clusterfuck of conflicts and reversed positions. Bush has complimented Kerry on his Vietnam service. The fact remains that Kerry's campaign dwells on claims that Bush did everything wrong. Kerry does not give credit where credit is due and has no credit of his own. This negative campaign began long before the Bush campaign turned negative. Like after Bush was compared to Hitler. Should Bush not fight back? The Democrats fired the first negative shot and cry like babies when one gets fired back. I realize that Kerry supporters are not going to re-evaluate the situation and reverse your position. That is the action of intelligent people like Kerry. I was resigned to having a Democrat president until re-evaluated the situation with the wannabe candidates and decided none of them are acceptable. Now Kerry says we need to reduce terrorism to the nuisance level. When a million or so Americans die due to a terrorist attack via a dirty bomb or such on his watch will it be a nuisance or a colossal mistake? Now I see Kerry bitching about the price of gas as and blaming it on Bush. The price of gas began rising in the spring of 2000 and contributed to the recession. Who was responsible in 2000? The problem is because people around the world are using more oil. Did bush cause a worldwide increase in oil consumption? Maybe it is arrogant assholes that own 4 mansions, a private jet, drive a fleet of vehicles including 4 SUVs that are contributing to the increase in the price of gas. I could be correct. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM I can't vote in your election, Old Guy. I'm Canadian. I'm concerned about your election, though, because the USA affects the whole World in a very significant way. If I were American I would probably vote strategically, depending on where I was located, in order to help prevent the present administration being re-elected. That vote would in no way indicate my faith in the Democrats...I have no faith in them whatsoever. It would simply be a protest vote against the last lot of scoundrels, that's all. They ought to be tried for war crimes, not just turfed out of office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 12 Oct 04 - 12:13 AM Old Guy: Bush has complimented Kerry on his Vietnam service. If you don't know Bush did this just so he could not be blamed for the vicious "Swift SBoat Liars for Lies" ads, then you've got your head somewhere dark and quiet. As I pointed out and you ignored, Kerry complimented Bush on his strong convictions. Big whoop! The fact remains that Kerry's campaign dwells on claims that Bush did everything wrong. Kerry does not give credit where credit is due and has no credit of his own. All campaigns do this. What has Bush said Kerry would do right if elected? This negative campaign began long before the Bush campaign turned negative. Like after Bush was compared to Hitler. Should Bush not fight back? Kerry compared Bush to Hitler? When? Or are you saying that if anyone in the world says anything mean about Bush he should attack Kerry in response? The Democrats fired the first negative shot and cry like babies when one gets fired back. Show me what you consider the "first negative shot," and I'll show you an earlier one, Old Guy. Each party does this to the other all the time. The only one crying like a baby is you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: George Papavgeris Date: 12 Oct 04 - 03:38 PM This old thread still going? Sheesh - Old Guy, you Do have time on your hands! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 12 Oct 04 - 10:42 PM Nerd: I am tired tonight. Suppose you ferret out the first negative ad in the campaign. I said bush was compared to Hitler. I did not say that Kerry said it. When I say Kerry said it I mean Kerry said it. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM There are certain traits worth comparing between the two, although in general I'd say Hitler was far more evil and Bush probably is a but more stupid in some areas. A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:23 PM The "Big Lie" technique seems to apply to both...but perhaps Bush is not consciously aware that he's lying...in which case he isn't, technically speaking. He's just in error. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 13 Oct 04 - 09:31 AM I understand that in Vietnam, Kerry and Jim Rassman threw a grenade into a rice bin and ran. The grenade exploded before they could get away and some rice and a piece of shrapnel hit Kerry in the ass. Then he claimed the shrapnel was from a mine that exploded under his boat later the same day. Is that correct? "Jim Rassman in the Washington Post describes how Sen. Kerry really picked up a tiny piece of metal that day. As they were heading back to the boat, Kerry and Rassman decided to blow up a five-ton rice bin to deny food to the Vietcong. In an interview, Rassman recalled that they climbed on top of the huge pile and dug a hole in the rice. On the count of three, they tossed their grenades into the hole and ran. Evidently, Kerry did not run fast enough. "He got some frag and pieces of rice in his rear end," Rassman said with a laugh. "It was more embarrassing than painful." At the time, the incident did not seem significant, and Kerry did not mention it to anyone when he got back on the boat. An unsigned "personnel casualty report," however, erroneously implies that Kerry suffered "shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks" later in the day, following the mine explosion incident, when he also received "contusions to his right forearm." " http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002447.php Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 13 Oct 04 - 10:07 AM Old Guy: I think engaging in this sort of maliciousness is beneath you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Lucia Date: 13 Oct 04 - 06:09 PM Just can't handle the truth, can you Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 13 Oct 04 - 06:28 PM Lucia: Which truth is that? That story is so full of holes it sounds like it was written by one of the professional Swifty Liars Club dudes that Bush refused to admit he hired. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Lucia Date: 13 Oct 04 - 06:53 PM Amos, you are obviously one of the better educated, most eloquent posters on this forum, so I really don't want to get into a prolonged debate with you over this-a don't show up for a gun fight with a knife kind of deal-but it truly saddens me that you can't open your eyes to what a duplicitous liar John Kerry is. He may indeed be better than Bush, although I have my doubts. He will probably get my vote come November,but certainly with my nostrils held tightly clenched. Amos, I went to too many funerals in the 60's-and worse, in the 70's(three in total)-of people who served honorably in SE Asia to watch in silence while you beatify a sanctimonious Brahmin like John Kerry. I for one, believe the Swifty Guys. Even as we differ,My Best to You |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:27 AM I originally heard that Kerry was playing with a grenade when it went off and gave him a very minor would consisting of rice embedded in his ass. After searching for it in print I found the above story told by Rassman. Rassman was the soldier that Kerry pulled out of the water so one way or the other he was tripping up Kerry on how he got the shrapnel for his purple heart. I was hoping some of you would check it out for yourself but obviously it is more comfortable for you to decide it is not the truth. Yesterday I was talking to my neighbor. I had been reluctant to voice my opinion about the two candidates because I did not want a feud with him. He said something about not liking Kerry. I found out he has the same opinion as me except more extreme. He was bragging about him and his wife raising his sons right because they were both conservative and opposed to Kerry. Every body I have talked to except my wife likes Bush over Kerry. My wife has recently decided Kerry is not her choice. She was born and raised a Democrat. Her Mother worked at the polling places as a Democrat every year until she got too feeble. Her Father was a staunch Democrat. I live in a blue state so there should not be so many people against Kerry. What can I say except what do people see in Kerry other than a bunch of empty promises? Witness Edwards saying "when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve will get up out of that wheelchair and walk again." http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apelection_story.asp?category=1131&slug=Campaign%20Reeve Edwards would make a good miracle healing preacher but a lousy VP. Subject to correction. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:38 AM I watched these two face off tonight. On every point of discussion Kerry was better informed and more articulate. I understand that is not the whole of a man's character, but let me pose you this thought: if Bush intentionally set in motion the machinations of war, knowing innocent civilians would surely die, and he did it based on a credulous acceptance of information that was faulty (and smelled it, I would add), without insisting on findingh out the facts, with out bending over backwards to spare innocent lives, he is not my kind of man nor would ever be my kind of president. He did exactly that -- based on bad data he didn't have the gumption top insist on getting his facts straight before throwing the nation into war and killing human beings in large numbers in direct consequence. He may smile a nice Texas smile, but as far as I am concerned he is more the murderer than John Kerry ever was. Maybe somewhere in your life you were taught that war "in defense of country" is glamorous. I was taught that taking another person's life in any but the most dire circumstances of self defense is a crime and a sin beyond forgiving. Maybe you believe there is something cleansing about the fire of battle and something self-forgiving about the extremes of warfare. I believe, instead, that allowing such conditions to come about is a complete failure of leadership and the ugliest opffense a leader can commit. In Vietnam. as in Iraq, men of George Bush's ilk forced others to take up the gauntlet and fight it out in the field, never duisturbing their own lives or their own children int he process. When Bush's girls head off to Baghdad as Marines I will reconsider. The longer I ponder this, the more of failure he appears to me, as a human and as an American. Open to correction. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Metchosin Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:47 AM not by me Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Paco Rabanne Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:42 AM nor me. oh, 300 by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:12 AM I for one, believe the Swifty Guys. Then, since their "charges" have been repeatedly and conclusively shown to be bogus, and to have been invented by a Republican Party pit bull, you are, indeed, an idiot. But you can take comfort in the fact that there are a substantial number of idiotic Americans that apparently do believe this crap along with you. Perhaps the No Child's Left Behind Act ( or was it their right behind?...) can be ammended to require U.S. citizens to prove proficiency in logic, critical thinking, reading comprehension & etc - and if they fail be barred from voting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:01 PM Amos: If Bill Clinton (or possibly even Old Man Bush for that matter) had decided to find and wipe out the terrorist networks before the cancer spread, would be be experiencing the level of loss of life that we are experiencing now? It would have cost the lives of innocent civilians and military people but far fewer than the present amount. Think of Kosovo. That was a just and successful military action and they I think ended genocide. How many lives were saved there? The first Gulf war was completely justified and passed all of Kerry's global tests, even though he voted against it. The current Iraq problem began when we let Saddam's Army get away. We ended it too soon. This Iraq war is a continuation of that war. It is something we should have done then but due to the delay it is a more difficult task. Think of the lives that could have been saved if we continued and wiped out Saddam's army and took Baghdad then. As to Swifties and "their "charges" have been repeatedly and conclusively shown to be bogus", I have not seen or heard a shred of evidence that the Swifties charges are false or cooked up by the Republicans, only Democratic rhetoric. The Swifites are Republicans. They would have to be Republicans to oppose Kerry. Why have no law suits been filed if they are lying? O'Neil who wrote the "Unfit for Command" book has "challenged the presidential candidate to sue him if he's wrong about any of his claims." "If he didn't wound himself with a grenade, causing a rice fanny wound, and then reported it to the Navy as a water mine – if he didn't do that on March 13th he should sue me," Where are the law suits? "Kerry's campaign has been threatening to sue television stations that broadcast ads by O'Neill's Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The campaign has also threatened to sue Regnery Books, the company that published "Unfit for Command." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40096 It sounds to me like a chicken shit way to suppress first amendment rights, which the Democrats vigorously claim to defend, without actually having to prove that the charges are false. Let the Kerry junta put some lawsuits where their mouth is. Let them put up or shut up. If you want to talk about lies, find out who was the first person to alert CBS about the forged ANG memos. Could it have been a DNC operative? Now to cap off this "Iraq War is Wrong" controversy, how is the enemy benefiting for this distention and how many extra lives is it costing? Just pull together, win the war and sort out the who struck John later on. I think we all agree that it is to our benefit to win now that we are in it. I could be mistaken. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,TIA Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:17 PM Please define what you mean by "winning the war". Before we can all agree on anything, let's see if we agree on what constitutes a "win". Open to Correction. TIA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:27 PM It is not costing any lives to call a spade a spade, OG. I don't have any reliable data on the points you raise, merely about as much noise in one direction as you have in another. The idea that the absence of a lawsuit is a proof of truth is pretty watery, IMHO. The idea that Bush had to start the war in Iraq because Clinton failed to do so is palpably ridiculous. This is not an extension of Gulf War 1 -- whose whole goal was to restore self-determination to Kuwait. There was no invasion, no assault that precipitated this one. There were no WMD and your imaginary terrorists were not in evidence. A lot of them have come to Iraq since the war begun, though, called to arms by the violence. By being in Iraq, US troops have provided them with a perfect excuse -- nay, an explicit invitation to "bring them on" -- one of the syupidest diplomatic phrases ever uttered. And we are paying theprice for that stupidity. From our own families, a thousand sons and daughters snuffed because of that stupidity. It is hard to step up to the fact that one has been terribly, seriously wrong, but if Bush is half the man his admirers think he is, it is time for him to do so. But it won't happen, I expect. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Frank Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:54 PM Alawi is a puppet of the Bush Administration. He is a potential Saddam. Bush is not only far from perfect but he is out of touch with reality. It's not Kerry who thinks he knows everything. There are so many lies being heaped upon Kerry these days that it's impossible for people to know much that's truthful. Most of them are coming from the Bush camp. It's not true that Theresa Heinz Kerry has an offshore account. Prove it with some reliable source other than the Washington Times or the Op Eds on the WSJ. Another lie. It sounds like a concoction from the billionaire smear merchant, Richard Mellon Scaife. Or Karl Rove. Theresa is an educated woman who actually can speak other languages than English which is an accomplishment that many anti-intellectual bigots denegrate. Edwards is a compassionate advocate for those who suffer under the injustice of the medical profession. His cases include the defense of a young girl who was injured in a swimming pool through the responsibility of the owners. The idea that going to war with Iran, Syria or any other country is madness. Going to war is a grave mistake that if anyone glorifies it or thinks of it as an option to solve problems is in serious emotional trouble. I disagree with this thread and it's unfactual and empty rhetoric. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 14 Oct 04 - 05:01 PM Thanks, Frank. I'm witchoo. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:13 PM It's divide and conquer, Old Guy, divide and conquer. The Islamic Jihadists have fallen for it, and you have fallen for it. Ordinary people of many nations will die fighting each other while the architects of the whole tragedy grow richer and more powerful. The War on Terrorism is a fraud, invented to divide and conquer the ordinary people of the World, just like your presidential elections are a fraud. They can control you as long as they can make you afraid, as long as they can stir up your fear and hatred. They can control the angry Muslim as long as they can make him afraid. They can send you out to kill each other. Divide and conquer. Who creates the money? Who builds the A-bombs and cruise missiles? Who controls the oil? Who arranges loans at the World Bank? Those are the people in command, and they invented this phony War on Terrorism. I am not willing to kill anyone in order to advance their unholy agenda. (And they don't really care, because I'm not important enough to matter...let's hope they don't care, anyway...or I would probably be leaving this embodiment a bit sooner than I had planned.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:23 PM LH: Excuse me, but there was a genuine and concentrated attack on the American mainland a few years ago; there was nothing fictitious about those three thousand lives snuffed out in the name of hatred. Be grateful you are a member of a nation at peace. I despise warfare and those who promote it. But be careful where you draw the line between fact and illusion. Conspiracies are always easier to imagine than to find, and hard facts are often harder to confront than fictions. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:31 PM A On your last post I can agree completely. The decision to go to war is never a good thing- but sometimes it is required, in order to prevent a greater loss. The big problem is determining just when it is justified. Peace at ANY cost is far too expensive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:43 PM Tia: Winning is the opposite of loosing. Just define loosing first. There are plenty of losers claiming we can't win so winning would be what they think can't be done. Amos: It seems logical that if people were telling lies about Kerry, he would sue them. If there were questions remaining about his military records, he would release them. Why would he try to suppress the distribution of the lies rather than prove that they are lies? Why threaten to do something and not do it? So much for being steady, honest and dependable. You have not addressed the question about what if a previous administration had taken action on Saddam. It tells me (maybe not others) that you are not thinking through the question to arrive at an answer. The next question I would ask about what if a previous administration had taken action against Saddam is "what would happen in the future if Bush did not take the initiative now" I think the obvious answer would be even more bloodshed and money wasted. Answers like it is not justification do not answer anything. What would constitute justification? You might think I am picking a fight with you but I would really like to know your opinion. I want to know because I can't figure out how someone can come to the conclusion that war is never justified. I think if nothing is done about Saddam, Iran and Korea we would eventually be living like the Israelis only on a nuclear scale. And your answer to the question about the distention over the war is that it is not costing any lives. So that means that the insurgents are not considering the distention about the war among Americans a weakness? They are using the divide and conquer strategy. You and every dissenter are playing into their hands. They use the media to their advantage when they tape beheadings and deliver them to Al Jazera. Other muslims see it and it makes them bolder. Americans see it and it makes some of them weaker. They also know some politicians will use the war as a tool to get them elected. I thought for a while you were questioning your Anti-bush stance and looking for new evidence but now it seems the doors of the mind are closed. I could change my mind. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:58 PM Your hypothesis that Saddam would have escalated to the level of attacking the United States is not supported by hard facts that I can see, OG. The fact is a huge number of Iraqi citizens have been sliced and diced because someone thought Saddam should be taken out. I have never said war is "never justified". The question is, should it be used easily, or as a last extreme measure? Because I respect life and value humans I argue it should be used ONLY when no choice is available. Mister Bush believed otherwise and sent the dogs of war into slaughtering mode. Politically, this brought about one good thing -- the downfall of the dictatorship of Hussein. But it did it at an awful costs, brutalized lives, slaughtered children, lost American men, and beheaded kidnappees which would not have happened absent the invasion. This is like buying a starving child a Kiddy Meal and paying $3,000 dollars for it -- and then beating the kid up because she doesn't appreciate how much you are spending to help her. It was exorbitant and misguided, and it was (I believe) done for other reasons than those announced to you and to me. As for Kerry, it may seem logical to you that he should be suing folks right now, instead of focusing on the campaign, but at least grant him the right to decide such things for himself. If I were in his shoes I would feel a mite too busy to worry about natterers like the Swift Boat Liars for Bush. There is no reason to presume guilt because he isn't behaving the way you would. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:02 AM Amos: I am not saying Saddam would be attacking the US. I am saying the US would be under 9/11 or PLO style attacks here in America, be it Al Quaeda, some future version of it or existing orgs like the PLO. It is clear that Saddam supported terrorisim short of actually funding Al Quaeda. So does Iran. Korea is or will be in the terrorist supply business. Over in another thread I listed the recipients of the oil vouchers from Saddam. Two names are on there that I am very familiar with. The PlO and Abu Abbas. I am sure that several of the other companys are fronts for terrorist orgs. Investigators are trying to track them down. Read my lips, I could be wrong. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:13 AM This article does a pretty good job of explaining the BushShiteApologist types & their tactics. Short exerpt follows: ...One of the great cliches of liberal criticism of the Christian fight is the idea that these people are wrongheaded because they profess to know the will of God. H.L Mencken put that one best, and perhaps first: "It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely." These criticisms sound like they make sense. But I think they are a little off-base. The problem not only with fundamentalist Christians but with Republicans in general is not that they act on blind faith, without thinking. The problem is that they are incorrigible doubters with an insatiable appetite for Evidence. What they get off on is not Believing, but in hav-ing their beliefs tested. That's why their conversations and their media are so com-pletely dominated by implacable bogey-men: marrying gays, liberals, the ACLU, Sean Penn, Europeans and so on. Their faith both in God and in their political convictions is too weak to survive with-out an unceasing string of real and imagi-nary confrontations with those people -and for those confrontations, they are constantly assembling evidence and facts to make their case. But here's the twist. They are not looking for facts with which to defeat opponents. They are looking for facts that ensure them an ever-expanding roster of opponents. They can be correct facts, incorrect facts, irrelevant facts, it doesn't matter. The point is not to win the argument, the point is to make sure the argument never stops. Permanent war isn't a policy imposed from above; it's an emotional imperative that rises from the bottom. In a way, it actually helps if the fact is dubious or untrue (like the Swift-boat business), because that guarantees an argument. You're arguing the particulars, where you're right, while they're arguing the underlying generalities, where they are. Once you grasp this fact, you're a long way to understanding what the Hannitys and Limbanghs figured out long ago: These people will swallow anything you feed them, so long as it leaves them with a demon to wrestle with in their dreams... exerpted from "Bush Like Me" by Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone,28 Oct 2004 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Matt Taibi is an arrogant asshole Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:22 AM Matt Taibbi Matt Taibbi is the editor fo the Moscow-based alternative newspaper the eXile http://www.familyresource.com/contributors/8/ "Well, that's rich, isn't it? Christopher Hitchens crawling out of a bottle long enough to denounce Michael Moore as a coward. I can't imagine anything more uplifting, except maybe a zoo baboon humping the foot of a medical school cadaver. All journalists are cowards. Hitchens knows it, I know it, everybody in this business knows it. If there were any justice at all, every last goddamn one of us would be lowered, head-first, into a wood-chipper. Over Arizona. Shoot a nice red mist over the whole state, make it arable for a year or two. A year's worth of fava beans and endive for the children of Bangladesh: I dare anyone in our business to say that that wouldn't represent a better use of our rotting bodies than the actual fruits of our labor." http://www.nypress.com/17/26/news&columns/MattTaibbi.cfm Continuing to bring you the best in penis-related campaign news, we learn a bit more about a controversy in the Kerry campaign. Specifically, Kerry correspondent Matt Taibbi once threw a pie of equine semen at NYT correspondent Michael Wines. So it's sort of fitting that he's covering the Kerry press corps, where his antics have included dressing up as a Viking and shoving cameras in reporters' faces. "Sperm Pie-Throwing Journo Terrorizes Kerry Press Corps Now, those reporters really should consider themselves lucky. But journos aren't the only ones upset: After Howie Kurtz wrote about Taibbi in his column on Monday, former Clark press flak Matt Bennett emailed Kurtz to lodge a complaint. (Read it after the jump.) He cited the sperm-tossing and Taibbi's Nation piece on Clark (which was not flattering). There's also something about some "ethical issue" in Taibbi's Nation piece. (Apparently, Taibbi had an opinion of Clark before he started writing it. Doesn't he get the pre-article lobotomy like everyone else?). Bennett sums up: "Taibbi is, to put it plainly, a nut and a hack." http://www.wonkette.com/archives/sperm-piethrowing-journo-terrorizes-kerry-press-corps-003547.php "The girl, normally an office secretary, worked for the eXile. She was buying Pobornik�s sperm because she�d been gruffly ordered to do so by the newspaper�s editors. They�d been vague about what they needed it for, saying only that they needed a large quantity of horse sperm for some prank they were planning." "�Cooking for the Enemy� with the Anarchist Gourmet A PIE FOR MICHAEL WINES The true sign of any gourmet chef worth his salt is his ability to work with the rarest, most expensive and exotic ingredients. The Chinese have their shark fins and the endless varieties of soup based thereon, while the Piemontese of Northern Italy have their beloved white truffles, which are literally worth more than their weight in gold. We here at the eXile have a rich culinary tradition of our own, with one ingredient in particular being treasured above all others: unadulterated horse semen. Prices for this ingredient vary based on the quality of the source, of course. For example, prices of $100,000 per ounce are not unheard of for the finest specimens. However, sperm of such quality is typically reserved for the meals of kings and other economic royalty. In our case, 5 ounces of spunk from �Pobornik�—a decidedly mediocre 15-year-old dark bay thoroughbred who has produced no exceptional offspring—cost a reasonable 500 rubles. This is plenty good enough for a Moscow hack target, even one as diabolical as New York Times bureau chief Michael Wines. Monetary issues aside, simply procuring the horse sperm can be a difficult process. In most Westernized countries, you will need to present all varieties of identification and licenses certifying that you will be using the cum for appropriate purposes. Here in Moscow, meanwhile, we were able to cut a deal with Moscow Horse Farm #1 by claiming we needed the sperm for some vague cosmetics experimentation. Any number of delicious recipes would benefit from the addition or substitution of high-quality horse semen, but nothing says �We Got You!� like the good old-fashioned pie in the face. As it happens, horse spunk is very close in both texture and nutritional content to the corn starch that is commonly used in custard cream pies. Below you will find the basic recipe we used for the Equine Custard Cream Pie with which we hit Michael Wines in the face last Friday, March 30, 2001. Even the beginner should find the recipe relatively easy to follow and technically undemanding. The chef who is more experienced with the handling of horse sperm may wish to alter the quantities somewhat according to personal taste. Please note, however, that use of milk in excess of the 1 1/2 cups quoted will in most cases compromise the structural integrity of the custard-cream mixture. A final note on handling the horse semen. The specimen may be stored without detriment for up to one year if kept in an airtight container in your freezer. As we learned the hard way, however, keeping the sample in a refrigerator may cause the sample to assume a bright yellowish hue that may only be described as �radioactive.� It is not known if this change has an effect on the sperm�s nutritional attributes, or if it involves any kind of health risk for the human target. In any event, avoid letting the semen come in to contact with your skin, and it�s probably a good idea to dispose of any implements used in the preparation of the pie. Equine Custard Cream Pie 1 ready-made pie crust 3 egg yolks 5 oz. fresh horse semen 3/4 cup sugar 1 1/2 cups whole milk 1/2 teaspoon coarse (kosher) salt 1 tablespoon butter (at room temperature) 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 1/2 cup heavy whipping cream for the topping: 1 cup fresh or frozen (thawed) strawberries 2 tablespoons sugar 1/4 cup milk In a medium saucepan, beat the egg yolks. Stir in the horse semen and sugar until well blended. Add the milk and salt. Simmer on low heat for 5 to 7 minutes, until the custard mixture begins to bubble and froth. Stir in the vanilla extract. Keep in refrigerator for 2 to 4 hours to cool and congeal. Using an electric mixer, whip the cream until the formation of stiff peaks. With a spatula, gently fold the whipped cream into the cooled custard. Final mixture should be semi-liquid, with the consistency of fairly runny pudding. Pour the custard-cream mixture into the pie crust, filling almost to the top. Using the tines of a fork, poke the surface of the custard repeatedly in order to form tiny, meringue-like peaks. Keep in refrigerator until ready to serve. To make the topping, mash the strawberries (raspberries may also be used) with a fork or puree in a blender. Stir in the sugar. Add the milk gradually while stirring, as much as the mixture will accept without becoming excessively runny. Just before serving, pour the topping onto the pie in whatever pattern you desire, the distinctive eXile �X� in our case. Be sure not to cover the entire surface of the custard! The topping is primarily a decorative accent, after all—you want your victim, assuming his palette is sufficiently well developed, to be able to taste the horse sperm you took such pains to procure. Good luck!" http://www.exile.ru/113/lead.php MT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,TIA Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:21 AM Nope, sorry, you gotta put up. You said "I think we all agree that it is to our benefit to win now that we are in it". Before I can agree with you, I need to know what *you* mean by winning. BTW, I have never claimed we can't win. Also, I'm open to correction, but I think the opposite of loosing is fastening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:21 PM OG: Saddam's support of terrorism is vague; I won't argue that he didn't but the problem is that terrorism is too lartge a condition to be used as "the enemy". The terror caused by the US in various attacks agianst civilians over the years is enough to make it clear that we are on that list too. But he did not make any deals with Al Quaeda as far as anyone has shown me. And out immediate enemy is AL Quaeda. Bush took something AL Quaeda did (an act) and claimed that all instances of that act constituted the nation's enemy, which is really stupid. It is also slippery, because if you can sell that bill of goods you get carte blanche to wage war at will. War thus becomes a matter of leader's opinion instead of national policy. Now, who would want to do such a thing? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:46 PM My Idea of winning in Iraq is to keep large military forces there fighting back and train Iraqi forces until the insurgency dies down to the point that the Iraqi government can handle it. Then keep a small military force there to protect contractors rebuilding the infrastructure. Hopefully Nato will step in. Isn't this the same plan that Bush and Kerry have? There will be no ticker tape victory parades and signed peace treatys. The terrorists will never be eliminated completely but it will not be "fashionable" to come to Iraq to fight the creation of a democracy. There will be great political struggle there to create a Islamic government like Iran. Hopefully the citizens of Iraq will have a taste of freedom and reject being ruled by a Mullah. Alawi could turn into a dictator like Saddam did but we must take the chance and hope for the best. Japan was converted to Democracy and they are now our allies. My idea of loosing would be to listen to a bunch of liberal wussies, pull out and let terrorists and Iran take over. Then we would be looking at another Iran with nuclear capabilities and terrorists with nuclear weapons. America would become like Israel taking terrorist attacks regularly. Something should have been done long ago to stem the tide of terrorisim but previous administrations eithere did not see the gathering threat or did not have the guts to do anything substantial. We are paying the price of that inaction now. How do others here define winning and loosing? Open to correction. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:10 PM OG: How much of the present insurgency do you think is attributable to a long-term " gathering threat ", and how much of it do you think is attributable to a violent rejection of occupation? The entire Vietnam war was fought based on a misapprehension about which was which, according to a conversation held years later between Macnamara and the aged general who led the VC campaigns. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Frank Date: 15 Oct 04 - 04:51 PM Old Guy, Kerry has a decent plan to end the fisaco in Iraq. The first is to train an Iraqi defense force outside of Iraq and elicit the help of the allies that Bush has alienated. His committment to this goal is as intense as anything Bush has proposed. Bush has made a pretense of a "willing coalition" which in fact has not taken on the responsibility that Bush claims they have. Kerry is intelligent enough to develop a true coalition who accept this responsibility and would ask the UN for help. It's in the best interest of a rational world to stabilize Iraq by taking the American corporate interests out of Iraq and replacing them with a more impartial group. Kerry would reunite the world community by behaving in a civil and sensitive manner. Cheney is wrong. We do need sensitive as well as strong leadership and the two are not mutually exclusive. We need to reduce our dependency on oil. Kerry has made this clear. Alternative energy sources must be explored. Kerry has not alienated allies at all. Alawi is not an ally buy employed by Bush who wants the election to go his way in Iraq at any cost as he does in the US. A failed policy is costing American lives, not anyone's critique of the war. Not all soldiers believe they should be there and in the future, we will see more migrations of them to Canada and other places. The idea that Democrats don't care about our troops is ludicrous. You say, "If the American people would show a unified commitment to the war against terrorism the violence would abate sooner." This is not necessarilly true. Violence brings about more violence. The Iraqi people are becoming unified in their repudiation of American forces. The only unified commitment that should be made is to understand the source of terrorism, define it better, and create the conditions that eradicate it. These are not just military. It requires judgement, education, respect for our country, and understanding, something that Bush has not shown during his tenure. He has been reckless in his foreign policy and has actually helped Al Quaeda by so doing. The biggest defense of Kerry is that he is a diplomat and not a hot-headed impulsive commander-in-chief. The answer to terrorism ultimately is world diplomacy not a scorched-earth policy. The results of this policy would be many countries of the world coming on board to help the US in it's fair and even-handed approach to solving the problem of "terror". Respect for the US would go up. Right now, it's the lowest it's ever been throughout the world. When America can act as a leader and not a military dictatorship, the world will recognize the value of our democracy. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM Frank: Well thought, and rightly said. Pay attention, OG -- Frank is being thoughtful, a condition I recommend to you and your ilk, to boot. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:03 PM As for the scurrilous use of FCC licenses to promote a candidate, the New York Times rebuts it: Published: October 15, 2004 The Sinclair Broadcasting Group, one of the nation's most powerful television conglomerates, has a sad record of using its public license to promote Republican causes. Earlier this year, Sinclair tried to censor an installment of "Nightline" on its 62 stations when Ted Koppel announced plans to read out the names of soldiers killed in Iraq. Now the company, owned by financial backers of President Bush and other Republican politicians, plans to actively join the re-election campaign. Its plan sounds like the plot of a bad political novel, or an actual election in post-Soviet Russia. The Times and other newspapers reported this week that Sinclair, a Maryland-based company that reaches nearly a quarter of American households, would broadcast a propaganda film in the next two weeks that labels Senator John Kerry a liar, a traitor and a "willing accomplice" of the enemy during the Vietnam War. It claims, falsely, that his antiwar statements inspired the North Vietnamese to step up the torture of American prisoners, and it is filled with other distortions about the war in Vietnam. Sinclair has instructed its stations, which are heavily represented in swing states like Florida and Wisconsin, to run the film without commercials in the evening. The company already compels them to broadcast editorials and commentaries favorable to Mr. Bush and his policies. But this is a whole new arena, and little different from making the stations give donations to the Republican campaign. We would be just as appalled if one of the major networks forced its affiliates to broadcast "Fahrenheit 9/11" next week and call it a news program. The movie that caught Sinclair's eye, a 45-minute diatribe called "Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal," rehashes Republican charges that are familiar to everyone from the latest round of ads attacking Mr. Kerry's antiwar activities: primarily that he lied to the Senate in 1971 about atrocities in Vietnam and that his testimony and the antiwar movement in general aided the North Vietnamese and harmed American soldiers. This line of reasoning neatly dovetails with the Bush campaign's assertions that criticizing Mr. Bush's conduct of the war in Iraq is unpatriotic and harms American soldiers. Eighteen Democratic senators asked the Federal Communications Commission to stop Sinclair from broadcasting the new film, but the commission was right to refuse. As painful as it is to defend this agency, which has shown more interest in Janet Jackson's breast than in really doing its job, we believe that the federal government cannot indulge in that sort of prior restraint. But the F.C.C. also cannot ignore Sinclair's poor record when it comes to meeting its obligation to act responsibly and fairly in the public interest, a duty it assumed when it accepted custody of a license to broadcast on the public airwaves. Broadcasting "Stolen Honor" within two weeks of the election would clearly violate those commitments. Sinclair says it is just trying to give its viewers news. Unfortunately, this film is not news, and not journalism. It makes no attempt at balance or fairness. Its interviews with 17 men who were imprisoned and tortured in Hanoi are powerful. But the narrator and producer, Carlton Sherwood, a former journalist on leave from his job in a company that provides "homeland security" services to the government, exploits these brave men and their distinguished service for a cause that he openly says is personal. Sinclair's First Amendment defenses lack credibility because it denied those rights to "Nightline." At the time, Sinclair's spokesman, Mark Hyman, who doubles as a conservative commentator, said Mr. Koppel's program did not deserve to be broadcast because it had "no proportionality" and ignored other aspects of the issues. It was hard to see how that could describe a tribute to the war dead, but it's a perfect description of "Stolen Honor." Yesterday, Mr. Hyman seemed to be hedging a bit on Sinclair's plans, saying the program was not finished and would be balanced. But it was unnerving to hear him adhere to his bizarre claim that the major broadcast networks who wisely declined to run "Stolen Honor" when Mr. Sherwood offered it to them were no different than "Holocaust deniers." If the company is thinking about seriously changing course, it should do it quickly. Sinclair is in dangerous territory. If television companies force their local stations to campaign blatantly, it will not be long before the administrations that have the power to grant licenses begin expecting such favors as a quid pro quo. And the public will question whether it can afford to allow such concentrations of power in the hands of huge media corporations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:40 PM Frank: Here's some information that might put you in touch with reality. Don't tell John Kerry though. He thinks he IS in touch with reality: "Czech police officers train Iraqi cadets in Jordan " http://www.radio.cz/en/article/57241 "Turkey Wants to Train Iraqi Police in Jordan" www.bianet.org/2004/08/01_eng/news38887.htm "Jordan will train Iraqi police, troops " www.jordanembassyus.org/09302003001.htm "CANADIAN POLICE OFFICERS HEAD FOR JORDAN TO TRAIN IRAQI POLICE. " www.rcmp.ca/news/n_0401_e.htm "The Iraqi female recruits are currently being trained in Jordan by the Jordanian army, which has females in its army and knows how to train them" www.tradoc.army.mil/pao/TNSarchives/May04/050104.htm "843 Iraqi Officers Graduate in Jordan (June 21" www.defense-aerospace.com/produit/40960_us.html "NATO Partners Agree to Train Iraqi Troops White House Wins Support It Had ... allows for the possibility that some of the training will take place outside Iraq " www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ articles/A10255-2004Jun27.html "US to train Iraqi police volunteers in Hungary. " www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=640 "Germany is willing to help instruct the Iraqi police. Furthermore, the Iraqi military can be trained at our federal army academies. We will, of course, bear the expenses for these measures as we always do wherever we are present." http://www.aicgs.org/research/focus2002/kempeiraqi.shtml "Paris -- John Kerry may be overstating his ability to broaden the international coalition in the Iraq war and to win back countries alienated by President Bush's military strategy, European analysts say." "German and French officials, for example, have stated repeatedly that they will not join any coalition in Iraq " http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/05/MNG6K93PEA1.DTL "Kerry says the Iraq invasion was a pointless diversion from the real war on terror, which was in Afghanistan against Al Qaida. He says Bush fought the wrong war at the wrong place and wrong time. Really? And he expects France and Germany to belatedly join this pointless diversionary war, at the wrong time and wrong place? And win it? " http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/880031.cms "Kerry's magic alliances will not materialize, because some nations have their self-interest at stake and choose a path of anti-Americanism in the hopes of appeasing their own peoples and the beheaders at large." http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=52194&d=30&m=9&y=2004 Posted by: Admin on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:41 AM GMT According to a Nov. 20, 2002 AP story: Each automaker's fleet of light trucks — a class that includes SUVs, pickups and minivans — would have to get 22.2 miles per gallon by the 2007 model year, compared with the current requirement of 20.7 mpg, Bush administration officials said. The 1.5 mpg increase would be phased in by half-gallon steps beginning in 2005." http://www.underreported.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=444&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 Bush Statement on Energy Efficiency February 25, 2002 : "Hybrid cars, the likes of which we just saw over there, are already in existence. They run on a mixture of gas and electric power. They are several times more fuel efficient than most cars on the road today. I was told by the representatives of the manufacturing companies that more and more hybrid cars will be available in the marketplace next year. And this is good news. It's good news for our environment, and it's good news for American consumers who are not only worried about the environment, but understand the ramifications of dependency on foreign sources of crude oil. And then the fuel cells are being developed. Fuel cells will power cars with little or no waste at all. We happen to believe that fuel cells are the wave of the future; that fuel cells offer incredible opportunity. Now, there's a lot of obstacles that must be overcome in order to make fuel cells economically viable. And, therefore, we're promoting more research and development. In January, Secretary Abraham announced a $150 million FreedomCAR plan, focused on development of fuel cell technologies that run on hydrogen, whose only emission is water vapor." http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-gl0214.html "Because of Al Gore, We Are Twice as Dependent on Foreign Oil as We Were in the 1970s Clinton-Gore Opposition to Domestic Oil Production Enriches Arabs By: Mary Mostert, Analyst, Original Sources (www.originalsources.com) July 6, 2000" http://www.bannerofliberty.com/OS7-00MQC/7-6-2000.1.html "Although he does not like to talk about it now, Kerry once even bragged about supporting a 50-cent tax on gasoline. Among the "alternative" fuels that Kerry promotes is wind power. Yet Kerry has refused to endorse one specific wind-farm project for his home state that a power company is already set to build. Why? One suspected reason: The site of this proposed windmill farm is in Nantucket Sound, at a location the Kerrys can see from their summer mansion on Nantucket Island." http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=5006 "in February, when speaking before a union group in Detroit (the SUV capital of the United States), Kerry was proud of his collection. When asked what vehicles he owns, Kerry replied, "We have some SUVs…I have an old Dodge 600 that I keep at the Senate…and also a Chevy, a big Suburban. on April 22, when speaking to a group of reporters on a conference call, Kerry outright denied his previous statement, definitively claiming, "I don't own an SUV." http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3396.html "Kerry said it's important for his family to buy American cars and pledged to keep car manufacturing jobs in the country if elected." www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/ story/0,1280,-4009850,00.html " There are eight "family" cars and SUVs, including the 1995 Suburban (15 mpg highway, 12 mpg city), a 1993 Land Rover Defender (12 mpg highway, 10 mpg city), a 1989 Jeep Cherokee (20 mpg highway, 16 mpg city), a 1994 Jeep Grand Cherokee (20 mpg highway, 15 mpg city), a 2001 Audi Allroad (21 mpg highway, 15 mpg city), a 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser (25 mpg highway, 20 mpg city), a 1985 Dodge 600 Convertible (26 mpg highway, 23 mpg city), and a 2002 Chrysler 300M (26 mpg highway, 18 mpg city). Kerry, however, only owns up to the latter two. Then there's the 2002 Harley Davidson (his), two powerboats (one his, one hers), a power inflatable 2001 Novurania (his), and a Gulfstream II private jet (hers)." http://john-kerry.tonyspencer.com/john-kerry-environment-suv.htm "The old guard is scrapped, card by card, only to be replaced by a Governing Council that, despite being handpicked by the US occupying authority, promises sovereignty and prosperity." http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/023B71D9-9C84-4DC8-969E-32AD55B82A3D.htm Gerhard Schroeder: "I do know George Bush as someone whose political approach is rational and who, regardless of our differences in the Iraq question, always knows what needs to be done." http://www.aicgs.org/research/focus2002/kempeiraqi.shtml "the continuing defeatism is causing real harm. It is very demoralizing for us here in uniform to read & hear such negativity in our press. It is fodder for our enemies to use against us and against the vast majority of Iraqis who want their new government to succeed. It causes the American public to start thinking about the acceptability of 'cutting our losses' and pulling out, which would be devastating for Iraq for generations to come. Muslim militants would claim a huge victory, causing us to have to continue to fight them elsewhere (remember, in war 'Away' games are always preferable to 'Home' games). Reports like that also cause Iraqis to begin to fear that we will pull out before we finish the job, and thus they are less willing to openly support their interim government and U.S./Coalition activities." http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/9/30/92736.shtml "Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs who should be arrested, exiled or hanged." Abraham Lincoln "When asked whom they would trust as commander in chief, people in military service and their families chose President Bush over Sen. John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran, by almost a 3-to-1 margin." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/10/15/politics1323EDT0590.DTL I could be wrong. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:02 AM Amos & Frank: "He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard to specific tactical assignments," Hoffman said. "He was a loose cannon." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38337 "Another officer, retired Capt. Charley Plumly, said Kerry was under his command for two or three naval operations. He criticized Kerry's attitude and behavior." "Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive," Plumly said, "but the most common phrase you would hear [was] 'requires constant supervision.' " http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200405/SPE20040504a.html "Sen. John Kerry was told to leave Vietnam by three colleagues upset with his behavior and attitudes, according to a fellow swift-boat officer during the war." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38483 I am thinking very hard but others are hardly thinking. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 16 Oct 04 - 01:41 PM I direct your attention to this thread Old Guy. Excerpt: "ABC News Nightline went to Vietnam and interviewed villagers who witnessed the firefight in February 1969 that led to John Kerry being awarded a Silver Star. The incident is a center piece of the allegations made by the so-called 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth', whose leader John O'Neill has claimed that there was no firefight and that Kerry shot dead a fleeing teenager. Nightline's detailed interviews with the villagers, including former Viet Cong fighters who took part in the incident, verified Kerry's account of events. When confronted by Nightline's Ted Koppel, a clearly rattled O'Neill refused to address the content of the report." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Oct 04 - 06:35 PM OG, you are NOT allowed to bring any fact into the arguement unless it comes from a properly certified liberal source. You are just wasting our time telling us things that we don't want to hear about.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 16 Oct 04 - 07:23 PM Define "fact", beardedbruce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Oct 04 - 07:36 PM A "fact" is anything that a liberal presents, whetehre ther is any reality for it or not. a "lie" is anything that might disprove a "fact" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Oct 04 - 07:46 PM If one thing a conservative says is false, everything he says must be ignored. If one thing a liberal say is true, than everything he says must be taken as true. Do I have the right attitude, now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 16 Oct 04 - 07:56 PM How should I know? I'm not a liberal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:56 PM I think there is one standard for Democrats and another for Republicans. A Democrat like former Klu Klux Klan member Robert C. Byrd, Senator from West Virginia, can repeat the racist phrase "White Niggers" twice while speaking on national TV and it is considered completely acceptable by Democrats. The only penance required is a written apology from his office. A Mississippi Republican Senator, Trent Lott made the comment at the 100th birthday party of Senator Strom Thurmond: "I want to say this about my state: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either." There arose a hew and cry from Democrats across the country about his "racist" remarks that even 4 public verbal apologies for any thing his remarks might have inferred was not good enough for the Democrats. Eventually he had to resign. The prevailing justification is the Republicans are mean and Democrats are fighting for the rights of the average American. Therefore Democrats can do things that Republicans are not allowed to do. I am not a Republican or a Democrat. I think for myself. I change my position whenerve I find out I am wrong. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:58 PM So, you'll be changing it soon, then. Good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:58 PM OG, You miss the point. Democrats are NEVER wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:28 AM Brucie: Democrats are only happy when everybody agrees with them. All you do is snipe and never contribute. Is that the limit of your abilities? Al Qaeda could use you in Baghdad. Here is their training manual in case you want to read it. ABC NEWS Political Director Mark Halperin Internal Memo Dated Friday October 8, 2004: It goes without saying that the stakes are getting very high for the country and the campaigns - and our responsibilities become quite grave. I do not want to set off (sp?) and endless colloquy that none of us have time for today - nor do I want to stifle one. Please respond if you feel you can advance the discussion. The New York Times (Nagourney/Stevenson) and Howard Fineman on the web both make the same point today: the current Bush attacks on Kerry involve distortions and taking things out of context in a way that goes beyond what Kerry has done. Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win. We have a responsibility to hold both sides accountable to the public interest, but that doesn't mean we reflexively and artificially hold both sides "equally" accountable when the facts don't warrant that. I'm sure many of you have this week felt the stepped up Bush efforts to complain about our coverage. This is all part of their efforts to get away with as much as possible with the stepped up, renewed efforts to win the election by destroying Senator Kerry at least partly through distortions. It's up to Kerry to defend himself, of course. But as one of the few news organizations with the skill and strength to help voters evaluate what the candidates are saying to serve the public interest. Now is the time for all of us to step up and do that right. What the hell does this memo mean? I don't need any "help" evaluating what the candidates are saying. It looks to me like an ABC bias against Bush and for Kerry when they say they don't have to hold both side "equally" accountable. Of corse I can't see through the superior eyes of a liberal or a Democrat CBS has already demonstrated a bias against Bush. They backed off of their big scoop on Bush and will not say who told them about the forged documents about Bush's ANG record. I agree with everybody so they won't beat me up. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:37 AM I don't know why you folks (some of you) seem to think it is accurate appropriate or acceptable to sling these damn labels around and pass judgments on huge lots of people in one swoop by classifying them as liberals, Democrats or whatever. It is unconscionably poor thinking to make gross generalizations like that and pretend that some aspect of the label applies to all members of the class. It is not only bad thinking, it is also unjust to members of the set, and it is also -- because it distorts truth and promotes falsehood -- unethical. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:58 AM Amos: It is likewise true that when someone disapproves of Kerry they are labeled as a Bush supporter and a liar. No one can bring up a single facet about Kerry that is not supportive of him with out be called a liar, stupid, right wing extremist and a Bush propagandist. Then in the next breath accusations are hurled at Bush instead of defenses of Kerry. I guess the best defense is a good offense. I am not here to defend Bush. I am here to point out that Kerry does not convince me that he is any better or even as good. Maybe if I was in a wheel chair and someone gave me empty promises that I could walk again or if I was Black and someone convinced me that my votes were not being counted, or if I was draftable and Bush might start a draft, I might be convinced that Kerry is better. But the facts that Kerry uses these transparent strategys tells me he is not so great or he would not need to use them. So go ahead and start ranting on Bush, label me a right wing extremist, and call me a liar. I deserve it for being an independent thinker. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:17 PM Amos "It is unconscionably poor thinking to make gross generalizations like that and pretend that some aspect of the label applies to all members of the class. It is not only bad thinking, it is also unjust to members of the set, and it is also -- because it distorts truth and promotes falsehood -- unethical." As a self-declared conservative, I think you will be seeing this quote a lot, as people make gross generalizations and pretend that some aspect of the label applies to all members of the class. perhaps BOTH sides need to try to be a little more ethical? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM No one can bring up a single facet about Kerry that is not supportive of him with out be called a liar, stupid, right wing extremist and a Bush propagandist. This is a bit of a generalization, OG. I haven't called you a liar or stupid, nor have I called you an extremist or a propagandist. I object to some of the knee-jerk reactions offered by Republicans, and I am sure there are similar reactions provided by Kerry supporters which tick oyu off. I don't think either of us enjoy mob-think, and unfortunately ew are living in a time when politicized, polarized mob-think is the order of the day. As for offering information about Kerry that is not supportive of his campaign, feel free -- if it is information. But when it is instead exagerrated, or distorted, or mis-represented, expect some rebuttal. Unfortunately (in my experience, anyway) I have seen a lot more of tht kind of information-distortion coming from the Bush camp than the Kerry camp. A simple example: Kerry says "If you ask Dick Cheney's daughter she would say she was just being as God made her" (rather than choosing her lesbian lifestyle). The Bush camp (actually including Mary Cheny herself, funnily enough) takes this communication, which was compassionate and tolerant, and tries to twist it into an untoward attack. This sort of twist and slash messaging is useless, and merely upsets people. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,O;d Guy Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:14 AM Amos: Maybe you are not a part of the mob after all but I still think the terrorist threat is real. You might think the the warning that we might be attacked anywhere any time is a scare tactic or a CYA tactic but how in the hell can the officials in the US do their job if they are accused of lying about attack warnings for political purposes. Would it be better if they warn and we do have an attack? It is a no win situation. Al Qaeda wuold like nothing better than to do another 9/11 on a larger scale. You should read their training manual. http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:19 AM OG, The training manual is not from a properly "certified" site, so the SRS rule does not allow it to be brought into the discussion. You can only bring up facts that support what the more liberal posters want to say. Haven't you got that yet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:22 AM beardedbruce: I asked Nerd for a list of acceptable sources quite a while ago but I never got it so I am fumbling around on my own. About that post way up there that referenced the testimony of former Viet Cong fighters, I suppose the former Viet Cong have more credibility than the anti Kerry Vietnam Nets. Maybe a Vietnamese newspaper could organize a letter writing campaign like that Limey newspaper did so those old Viet Cong guys can write to American Voters and tell us who to vote for. They can repeat Kerry's heroic Genghis Kan testimony to convince us to vote for Kerry. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:53 AM OG: I believe the referenced testimony was from Robert Macnamara who led the war as SecDef and who consulted years later with the senior retired general of the other isde. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:13 PM Amos: "Nightline's detailed interviews with the villagers, including former Viet Cong fighters" How about a Vietcong for Kerry organization to make anti-swiftboat ads? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:47 PM Old Guy, There are no Viet Cong for Kerry involved and it is disingenuous, bitter-minded and untruthful to imply it. The poeple who were interviewed by ABC were Vietnamese peasants who described the battle. They saw what Kerry said ahappened, and they said so. These were people who had no vested interest, no axe to grind, and who were there at the time. You wopuld prefer the testimony of people who are deeply enmeshed in partisan politics, have financial incentives to come out on one or another side, and who have been revealed to be mouths for hire. Your preference is a reactionary one based on push-button responses rather than analysis. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: George Papavgeris Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:01 PM Old Guy, look up the "God is not Republican or Democrat" thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:02 PM Amos: The above Oct 16 post that I am quoting from says that "Nightline's detailed interviews with the villagers, including former Viet Cong fighters" That tells me that Viet Cong were interviewed in order to discredit the swiftboat vets. My comment was that since when do the viet cong have more credibility than US veterans. I did not say that there was a Viet Cong for Kerry organization but maybe one should be organized to helf Kerry get elected. Also I said Democrats evidently think that the English are more intelligent and the Viet Cong are more truthfull than Bush supporters. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,wampascat@adelphia.net Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:14 PM kerry wants it legal to have abortions.that alone is like putting a murderer in the white house. he is for same sex marriges. those two items shows what kind of trash he is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,longpecker redneck Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:31 AM Well, wampanscat@adelphia.net,lets have a bit of give and take here. On the abortion and gay issues alone makes me think that kind of forward looking and joined up thinking makes Mr.Kerry the most progresive and electable president in years.Just let him have a go at the immigration problem and econamy and watch his smoke !!!.More power to him I say !!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:00 AM Center for Media and Public Affairs at George Mason University and Media Tenor October 19, 2004 Page 1 Summary Findings: This study examines 2004 presidential election coverage from September 7 to October 1, 2004 on ABC's "World News Tonight", CBS's "Evening News" and NBC's "Nightly News" as well as "Special Report with Brit Hume" on the Fox News Channel. * More News – Network news campaign coverage in September was up 40% over 2000 – 199 stories vs. 141. * More Beef – The proportion of stories covering the campaign horse race dropped from 62% in 2000 to only 23% this year, a decline of 57%. Meanwhile, the proportion of stories dealing with policy issues rose from 50% in 2000 to 53% in 2004. * More Beefs – Both candidates are getting more negative coverage than their counterparts in 2000. Evaluations were only 38% positive toward Kerry and 29% positive toward Bush, compared to 48% positive toward Gore and 33% positive toward Bush in 2000. * Bite Size News – Candidate sound bites averaged under eight seconds in length. * More Differences – All three networks gave Kerry 38% positive evalua-tions. But ABC gave Bush only 20% positive, compared to 30% at NBC and 35% at CBS. * Bent Toward Bush? – Fox News Channel's "Special Report" featured 31% positive evaluations of Bush compared to 21% positive toward Kerry. And Fox panelists' comments favored Bush by 50% positive to only 13% positive toward Kerry. * "Fair and Balanced"? – In "Special Report" news segments, the coverage was balanced – 27% positive for Bush and 24% for Kerry. Fox was also more balanced in its issue coverage (30% positive for Bush vs. 28% for Kerry) than the broadcast network (41% positive for Kerry vs. 23% positive for Bush). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:07 AM Old Guy: Sorry I missed the part that some of those interviewed were ex-VC. Do you think that they had some reason to falsify the picture? I know the Swifties did. They intentionally and knowingly flasified the story. They lied for money, in short, in effforts to trash the reputation of a decent and accomplished man. Honorable, I am sure. I am a little tired of all this twisting and slashing, and am not incliuned to engage in it any more. It seems plain that you have your bent all picked out and in place, and despite your protestations of being open to discussion and open to change, that ain't gonna happen. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:29 PM Amos: "I know the Swifties did" How do you know? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:48 PM Because the logical implications of their various statements just don't add up, OG. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:52 PM Amos: Give me an example of their varipos statements not adding up. I will give you an example of a Rassman (the guy that Kerry saved) and Kerry's statements not adding up: "Jim Rassman in the Washington Post describes how Sen. Kerry really picked up a tiny piece of metal that day. As they were heading back to the boat, Kerry and Rassman decided to blow up a five-ton rice bin to deny food to the Vietcong. In an interview, Rassman recalled that they climbed on top of the huge pile and dug a hole in the rice. On the count of three, they tossed their grenades into the hole and ran. Evidently, Kerry did not run fast enough. "He got some frag and pieces of rice in his rear end," Rassman said with a laugh. "It was more embarrassing than painful." At the time, the incident did not seem significant, and Kerry did not mention it to anyone when he got back on the boat. An unsigned "personnel casualty report," however, erroneously implies that Kerry suffered "shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks" later in the day, following the mine explosion incident, when he also received "contusions to his right forearm." " http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002447.php Can you give me a specific example Amos? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:32 PM Geeze, OG, that is a fair question, and I wish I had time to go back through the chain of reports on which I based my conclusion and bring the illogical points to light, but I don't have time to do the homework for you. I'd love to, but I can only plead press of work and life. I will say that I think if you read all the various bits, without any prejudice, you will find too many pieces which do not add up. Up to you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,fed up with the Old Fart Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:53 PM You're quoting from a fucking BLOG, old guy. find a credible source if you're going to argue this stuff. That information is from someone who wants to dismiss and disarm Kerry. Take a look at the PBS special on Frontline last week and then repeat that lame story. What a waste of time, arguing with this guy. Amos, he's frittering away your time with this shit. Promote Kerry where it really counts--with voters! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:21 AM Fed up: If it is untrue show me. Was the frontline thing about the interviews with old Viet Cong? Do the viet cong have more credibility than US vets? I guess so because there is a tribute to Kerry in a museum in North Vietnam. They like Kerry over there. Old Guy that farts occasionally |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:32 AM Old Guy: to quote one of your idols Dick Cheney "Go F@*# yourself" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:42 AM Anonymous Guest: It is true that Cheney told someone "go fuck yourself" Who did he tell and why? This is far worse than when Kerry told Cedric Brown, a citizen and participant in a town hall meeting in Pennsylvania "That's none of your business" When Cedric asked if Kerry was meeting with foreign leaders to help him overthrow the Bush presidency. It also far worse than when TH Kerry told told a reporter to "shove it" immediately after giving a speech calling for a more civil tone in politics. After the speech she made her way through the Secret Service to get to Colin McNickle, a reporter for the Pittsburgh Tribune Review. She asked "Are you from the Tribune Review" Mcnickle said, 'Yes, I am.' Then she said "Of course, understandable. You said something I didn't say. Now Shove it" And horrendous compared to when Kerry thought he was off mike and made the remark in replying to a union worker who asked to go after the president: "Oh yeah, don't worry man, We're going to keep pounding. These guys are the most crooked, you know, lying group I've ever seen." Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: George Papavgeris Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:57 AM Old Guy, you have the years and experience(I assume), the time on your hands to do research, the brain the good Lord gave you, yet you have grown no wiser. You were funny back, oh, a couple of hundred posts or so. Then you became sad. No point exhorting you to pipe down, get serious, check your sources - you won't listen anyway. Just a belligerent old guy. Oh, well, it's your life, and sad as I find it, you are entitled to it, and to your views too. And you are also entitled to write reams and parade your views, just like anyone else. It's pointless though, Amos is right in that - you won't change your mind, and you don't have the eloquence or credibility to change anyone else's. So have your fun, then go and vote, and celebrate or mourn accordingly. And sleep well in your mental bunker. It should be nice and quiet there, if somewhat lonely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:07 PM El Greko the enlightened one: The more I open my mind to John Kerry the more evidence I find that he is a phony. Vote for him if you want but I am going to continue to point out his unsuitability to run this country up until the election. You do not have to read this thread if it is so offensive. Go over to the other Bush thread about bush and post there. That thread needs it because this one has twice as many posts. Maybe that means Kerry really is an arrogant asshole. Of course you are welcome to post facts that disprove my facts if you want. Oh, I forgot some of the future first lady, the one who's first language is not English, TH Kerry's language: Scumbags and idiots. I do check my sources. In the process of searching to find out what her fist language is I found a story about how she cussed out a cook in 5 languages. It was only on two sites with identical text so I concluded it was a lie planted there in hopes it would grow legs. I cross check other facts to see of the story persists on several sites with different text. Some times it is in newspapers or a network or cable TV sites too. If you want to get serious and discuss individual facts please do, you might be able to prove me wrong, but words like shut up is not part of a discussion. Now what particular fact do you want to dispute? Does anybody know what the future first lady's first language is? Old Guy Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:18 PM I dunno, OG -- my take is that he has had a lot of bull thrown at him and has handled it well; I don't think he is a fraction as phony as you think he is. But even more important I don't think he is anywhere near the liar that your beloved Pretender is. He has scarcely told a straight story since he bullied his way into the office. He has misled the congress and bullied the people and put on a completely dismal failure of management. The sooner he is ousted the better. Kerry has spent a LOT more time in the wheels of government than Bush has and knows a lot more about the ropes. And he understands people a lot better. I think you're backing the wrong horse. The Bush loonie-boy is simply a loser in many dimensions. Even if his machine manages to bully rag its way into the White house again he will still be a bully, a PR slime prone to mendacity, sub-literate and ill-equipped. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,longpecker redneck Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:35 AM Why don't you lot of psuedo intellectual dorks leave "Old guy" alone.He is the only one showing a tither of sense among the lot of you preening self rightouse buffoon's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:11 AM I don't see any way to parse your last post, Pecknecker, because your ad hominem stuff is what bufoonery is made of. What you are objecting to is called "disagreement", the fuel of a free society. You have a problem with that? Obviously not, since you're being as disagreeable as you can! :D But put some legs on it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:06 AM The "arrogant asshole" gave the following answer to a question from Rolling Stone magazine. I think it is incisive and accurate: The president has now given twenty-four reasons for going to war. Why do you think we really invaded Iraq? Well, I think you've heard all the reasons. I can't psychoanalyze them. They were driven by ideology; they were driven by a fixation on Saddam Hussein. They took their eye off of Osama bin Laden and the real war on terror, and the consequences for our country are gigantic: $200 billion, and counting; the loss of credibility and prestige in the world; the loss of alliances that we need to be helping us. The American people are paying a very, very bitter price for their bad judgment -- no matter what the cause is. I think those of you who insist on perpetrating that bad judgement are doing the nation a disservice. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:20 AM This interview makes the difference in quality between the two candidates pretty plain and obvious. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:28 PM Amos: What is the difference? I did not see any comparisons drawn, just a one sided Q & A. PS: Kerry did not mention his fondness for Rap and Hip Hop that he claimed to have when trying to woo the black vote. If he is so great why are union workers in Florida barring anybody that has a Bush/Cheney bumper sticker on ther car from the parking lots with yellow tape at the polling places in Florida right now? I hope Mile Moore is ther filimg the event. If you like him so much why aren't you out there trying to suppress the Republican vote like the other Kerry supporters? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:12 PM I don't know what the suppression you are referring to is, OG, but that's not the way we do elections in this country, unless we are Jeb Bush and Bbarbara Harris (Did I remember that big-toothed lady's name correctly?). IF union members are keeping Bush cars out of the parking lots, they are doing so on their own bat and you'll have to ask them why they have such strong feelings. Mayub e the Republic machine stole some of their votes last election? I dunno. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 04 - 06:23 PM The current analysis of the Electoral Vote Distribution is looking like Kerry is pulling away smartly and leading the field. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:15 PM Amos, "IF union members are keeping Bush cars out of the parking lots, they are doing so on their own bat and you'll have to ask them why they have such strong feelings." So, you see nothing wrong preventing people from voting, so long as the RIGHT people are blocked? I fail to see that you have any reason to complain about what your opponents do, if you engage in the same actions yourself. By NOT complaining about the actions of those blocking even your opponents, you are, in a legal sense, agreeing that it is appropriate and proper. The maxim is "Silence implies consent." Glad to know that you will stand up for the rights of minorities... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:38 PM Kerry has 6 teams of lawyers and jets on standby to contest the election. They are strategically placed so that any state can be reached in an hour or less. He should have been the one that planned the invasion of Iraq. Sharpton and Jackson on on duty in Florida right now agitating the minorities, taking pre emptive action as per the instructions in the Democratic election handbook. "Black and Hispanic Republicans criticized a Democratic National Committee handbook found in Colorado. It included a section encouraging Democrats to mount "pre-emptive strikes" against Republicans using press releases raising concerns about potential voter intimidation, even if none was detected. What that means in clear language is, if there is no evidence of intimidation, which we don't expect there will be because we're not going to engage in it, then make it up and talk about it anyway," said Michael Williams, a Republican railroad commissioner from Texas who is black. Democrats said the manual simply instructed party workers to publicize the threat of intimidation. And then, as if following their own advice, they took the offensive on the issue." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/18/politics/campaign/18monitor.html C'mon Amos, don't let me get away with this, fire back. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:05 PM OG, You still don't understand. These actions are only Wrong-think when done by the Evil Concervatives- They are Double-plus-right-think when performed by the Pure and Benevolent Liberals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:11 PM And besides, if Liberals do this type of thing, it is the individual acts of a few over-zealous individuals, whereas when Conservatives do it, it is always organized by the top level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:18 PM OG: Unlike you, I don't post these comments for the joy of fighting. If Kerry is standing ready to fight for a fair election in courts of law, perhaps he learned from studying recent history that the ruthless underhanded disenfranchisement maneuvers of the Bush machine throughly documented in 2000 might be tried again. You can do whatever you like to try and scrape dirt over that crap, but it will never stop stinking. The Bush election actually broke the trust of Americans in the electoral process. I only hope that Kerry can mend it, by sweeping the polls and by preventing slimeball legalistic maneuvers intended to pervert the process. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:29 PM Amos, I seem to recall as much slimeball legalistic maneuvers by Gore- Or do you think it reasonabale to demand recounts in districts you think you can pick up votes in, and fight against recounts, or even counting absentee ballots in districts that you think might go against you? The Gore election actually broke the trust of Americans in the electoral process. I only hope that Bush can mend it, by sweeping the polls and by preventing slimeball legalistic maneuvers intended to pervert the process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:11 AM The Gore election actually broke the trust of Americans in the electoral process. I only hope that Bush can mend it, by sweeping the polls and by preventing slimeball legalistic maneuvers intended to pervert the process. Jesus, BB, you are a piece of work. Go stand in the corner with red_clay. You find it clever, do you, to take someone else's words and pervert them? That is the most perverted thing I have seen this week. Yuk. And you fancy yourself a poet. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:25 AM Amos, I see that you cannot even try to tell me that I am wrong. I merely made a statement, just as you did, based on what happened. Sorry if you don't want to admit that you are a bigot, and do not even try to be fair-minded. And YOU fancy yourself a liberal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM How do you get that, BB? No offense, but most Presidents who win without the popular vote make some effort to listen to the majority that oppose them. The problem with Bush, among many other things, is that he's not even a recognizable conservative. Ask George Will, ask serious conservatives capable of principled thought. Bush is a divider, not a uniter, and is all about nation building. What part of anything he says can you rely on? How does complete ass-backwardness add up to his mythical steadfastness? Because he does whatever he's going to do whether it makes any sense or not? He's not qualified. I'm not a big fan of Kerry, not at all. But Bush is too scarey for me, and I'd vote for any president or vice president or major candidate except one in the last dozen or more years instead of him, liberal or conservative. Bush is a fuck-up. I don't know why conservatives support him. A serious conservative should have run against him. The Gore election? broke the trust? Guy? What Gore election? Bush was elected, so how? What? Huh? Bush was very very narrowly elected and believes he's a monarch. That's where trust was broken. You and I both have no idea what you are talking about. I know you're surrounded by liberals, but try to keep your wits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,BabyBeardedBruce Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:36 AM WAHHHH!!! mean old liberals!!! cheaterscheaterscheaters!!!! liarsliarsliars!!! fix deamocracy daddy bush!! you show those nasty mean old liberals!! WAHHHHH!!!!! and they're mean to me too! WAHHH!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:38 AM Fred, Amos was talking about the "slimeball legalistic maneuvers intended to pervert the process." I merely pointed out that to a neutral observer, BOTH sides engaged it the same level of activities- so to place ALL the bl;ame on Bush is the mark of a bigoted individual. We were NOT discussing Bush's qualifications to be president. That is another thread. And Amos, your bring my being a poet into this is an indication of the slimeball level that you have placed yourself at. I would not think to judge your, or anyone"s here, musical talent by their political viewpoint. I think that you owe me an apology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:38 AM BB: What you did was take a sentence of mine and twist it to read the opposite of what it said. If you really are too unaware, biased or whatever to see clearly how that is offensive, then we shouldn't be talking. Pretending you were just making a statement of your own is doubly irritating. There was no trust broken by Gore -- and you are just playing around with words with no sense of their impact or meaning. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:45 AM Amos "There was no trust broken by Gore " THAT is the point- there was, but you refuse to admit that the Gore campaign was just as, if not more active , in disenfranchising voters- just the ones that they thought might count against them. How is it playing with words to make a statement of fact? I notice you still attack me, and not the facts that I have presented. Not the mark of someone who thinks he is in the right... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:01 AM Amos, As I have stated in other threads, IF Gore had asked for a recount of the entire state, he would have been justified- but to ask for a recount only of specific areas, where he thought he could get additional votes, and fight against recounts in other areas, and against the counting of absentee ballots, was a slimeball legalistic maneuver of the first class. If YOU cannot see the bigotry in your words, than you are right- there is no reason for us to be talking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:08 PM Well, BB, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Tome the qualitative difference in character between Bush and [Gore or Kerry ]is about as vivid as the difference between Saddam Hussein and Harry Truman, for example. Everywhere he turns his hamd what comes out is underhanded opportunism and subliterate blundering. If you think his qualities stand up fairly in a side-by-side comparison with either of the other two, then you're not seeing what I see, that is for sure. As for Gore's request, I think you are taking it out of context. As I recall he asked for recounts where there was evidence of overt malfeasance. What was wrong with that? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:19 PM ANd objected to a count of absentee ballots in other districts. THAT is what was wrong. IF there was to be a recount, it should have been of the ENTIRE STATE, not just the districts the Dems thought they would pick up votes in. The rules on voting, and rool-clearing was state-wide- NOT just the three areas that Gore wanted more votes from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:29 PM I suppose we should have let the Florida Supreme Court decide what was just and fair. Too bad the RNC had to railroad it. Not so much because of what it did to the election, but because of how it undermined the already diminished and very important zone of State rights. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 22 Oct 04 - 09:48 PM BB, I wasn't and won't go into whether Bush and/or Gore engaged in self-serving manipulations of the process. What made no sense was for you to argue a mirror image of the damage done to the trust of citizens, and to refer to the Gore election, in response to the Bush election. It makes no sense and seems you're just returning a serve in sport without any regard to reality. This doesn't help me or anyone else understand where you are coming from. Bush's qualifications may not be the issue, here, rhetorically, but it is something of an issue(if you'll permit me to briefly digress) everywhere else in the actual frigging world. And the fact that he lost the popular vote and doesn't listen to the citizens of this country seems pretty on topic to me, on a thread which mentions an arrogant asshole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:05 PM Back on duty. Did you miss me Amos? Fred Miller: Gore / Leiberman filed false lawsuits in an attempt to steal the 2000 election. Here is one example, a long story about fake votes in St Louis: http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/pubs/reformmandate/reportpage4.asp It is from the Office of the Secretary of State, Missouri - Matt Blunt. Note the part where the lawsuit for the plaintifs Gore-Lieberman, was filed because Robert D. Odom, a deadman, was not allowed to vote. After it was discovered he was dead the plaintifs said they made a minor mistake. They meant to say Robert M. Odomwas not allowed to vote. It was later revealed that had already voted and did not have any trouble voting. It is Kerry's strategy to claim an early victory and if he looses he will claim Republican cheated. Then he will battle it out in the courts like Gore did. If you read the leaked page the Kerry Edwards Colorado Election Day Manual, November 2004 found at http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc.jpg you will see their strategy of creating accusations of voter fraud when none exist. "If no signs of intimidation techniques have emerged yet, launch a pre-emptive strike (particularly suited to states in which there techniques have been tried in the past). • Issue a press release i. Reviewing Republican Tactic used in the past in your area or state ii. Quoting party/minority/civil rights leadership as denouncing tactics that discourage people from voting • Prime Minority leadership to discuss the issue in the media; provide talking points • Place stories in which minority leadership expresses concern about the threat of intimidation tactics • Warn local newspapers not to accept advertising that is not properly disclaimed or that contains false warnings about voting requirements and/or about what will happen at the polls" "One top DNC official confirmed the manual's authenticity, but claimed the notion of crying wolf on any voter intimidation is "absurd." "We all know the Republicans are going to try to steal the election by scaring people and confusing people," the top DNC source explained. http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:40 PM Old Guy, Tell us why you like Bush, SVP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:36 AM Do you think the Republic tactics will be different from last election? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:45 AM Fred Miller, Let me correct my statement- The Gore CAMPAIGN actually broke the trust of Americans in the electoral process. I only hope that Bush can mend it, by sweeping the polls and by preventing slimeball legalistic maneuvers intended to pervert the process. My apologies if my anger at the biased viewpoint presented by Amos caused me to be less than precise. Brucie, Speaking for myself, and not OG, I DON'T like Bush- But I fear far more what Kerry would do to this country. Or maybe I should just say " Because he is not Kerry". Had the Dems been running someone FOR president, such as Lieberman, I would have a much harder choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:06 AM Sorry I upset you, BB. Your theft of my communication and then inverting it to pervert its meaning, and call it simply your own communication, was an underhanded maneuver. At least compose your own original thoughts. The trust in the process was not broken by the Gore campaign. The Gore campaign asked for and received a recount of votes in a state which had been railroaded by Repubolican management, voters being disenfranchised illegally, ballots being miscounted, and the whole stew laid directly at the door of Bush and Harris, the Republic administrators of the state election. THAT distortion, and the fraudulent news-casting by Fox's Bushie insiders, was what rotted the faith of Americans in the electoral process. That, and the blatant and arrogant use of influence to over-ride the State supreme court and (in my opinion) bring about injustice at the hands of a bought Federal Supreme Court. To my view you are being either disingenuous or intentionally obtuse, I am not sure which. But that is just my opinion. I could be wrong. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:12 AM Amos, You insist on stating your view as the truth- I have already asked about the places where Gore FOUGHT the recount, which you continue to ignore. Why is your warped view of what happened to be considered more valid than my (perhaps) warped view? YOU are the one who is acting the way you claim Bush is- Never admit you might be wrong, Never allow anyone else to have an opinion that differs with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:15 AM BB: You know, it is possible there were errors on both sides. But the net offenses were far heavier on the Bush side. He railroaded the electoral process. I expect he will try to do so again. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:23 AM Brucie: Bush is not the best with some policies but I like him as a person. He is real, faults and all. And he puts the nation's security as his top priority. Even if he was as lousy as Nixon, he would be better than Kerry. I think Kerry is not real, not honest and not likeable as a person. He is on both sides of every issue. He is a liberal eliteist, the kind that thinks he is so much smarter than ordinary people and he is grabbing for power. I can't trust him. The rotten Bush Economy that grew at an annualized rate of 3.4% in the second quarter of 2004, grew at a rate of 4% in the 3rd quarter. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:24 AM Amos, There you go, stating YOUR opinion as if it were fact. IMO, the net offenses were greater on the part of the Gore campaign- Yet you have set yourself up as the superior party that MUST be obeyed. It is the people like you that are making sure that those who might still be undecided, but who look for the fairness of the two sides, will be voting for Bush. Your continued failure to admit that the opposing side might actually have a point, and perhaps you need to address that, rather than order the world's compliance with your wish, does not make the side you support look any better than the image of the Bush administration that you are shoving down our throats. Do you really think that your statement of opinion will be accepted by any thinking person as fact, when you fail to give any reason other than "because I want it that way" ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:29 AM OK, BB. You're right. You probably do have some very real and valid things to say. Between falsified statistics and distortions there is very little room around here for a decent conversation, I concur. Old Guy claims the economy is booming along at 4% per annum growth rate. Is he kidding? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:39 AM Amos, If the facts are falsified, TRY challanging the FACTS, and not the person. If there is distortion here, I suspect ( trying to be polite) that you have made a significant contribution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:57 AM Yes, I'm sure your right. I have been opinionated and loud. Distortion began -- for this thread-- with the title of the thread, chosen by the first poster. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:39 AM BB, even if the Gore campaign tried to abuse the process, even if it tried more than the Bush camp--which doesn't seem to me to add up from the news accounts--it's hard for me to see how cheating and losing does more damage to faith in any system than cheating and winning. Many's the court case where distortions are presented to serve the interests of each side, but the ones that erode faith aren't the ones where the case is stretched, the process taken advantage of, but that party loses. That's what doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to quibble over the factual basis--what's the point, now? I accepted the outcome and hoped things would go better. Unlike you, I'm far more scared of Bush. His strength seems to me a weakness. He can't say no to his chums and friends. That's not strength, or leadership, politically speaking. But I'm sure it makes him a likeable regular guy, to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:14 AM Paul Harvey speaking yesterday was the source of the statement about the growth of the economy. He did not mention Bush or Kerry. It was not sandwiched between political stories, just random stuff like he always does. I think you can listen to it here paulharvey.com. If anybody has different numbers, post them. Amos: About the offenses by the other side, there are some offenses but the Democrats spin every single possible little thing to make it a bad thing. Example: It is a bad thing if Cheney gets a flu shot but it is OK if Clinton gets a flu shot. The title of this thread was chosen to capture people's attention and admittedly to stir up some a controversy. I got angered when Kerry put down Alawi on TV and I said I have to do something to make people question Kerry. This thread is that something. It is what I call "Boil Bursting". If something keeps growing and festering and does not seem to be going away soon so I say "We need to burst this boil before it kills us". Kerry is that boil on America's ass. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:44 PM That 3% APR growth is bogus as a three-dollar bill , fellas: gauges tumble on worries about earnings growth, energy prices. Dow down 1%, Nasdaq falls 2%. October 22, 2004: 6:41 PM EDT By Alexandra Twin, CNN/Money Staff Writer NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Stocks slumped Friday, with the Dow falling to its lowest level in nearly 11 months, on fears about rising oil prices and the outlook for corporate profits. The Dow Jones industrial average (down 107.95 to 9,757.81, Charts) lost 1.1 percent, closing at its lowest point since late November 2003. The broader Standard & Poor's 500 (down 10.75 to 1,095.74, Charts) index lost around 1 percent and the Nasdaq composite (down 38.48 to 1,915.14, Charts) fell 2 percent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:45 PM Amos, Victor of the Bush is an arrogant asshole thread and firm believer that the sky is falling: If you do some research, you will see that the stock market usually dives near Oct. 13th every year. It is like an echo of the crash of '29. In spite of rising oil prices, the economy is growing faster and faster, disappointing the gloom and doom Kerryites. The reason is where oil accounted for 1/3rd of our GNP during the last oil crisis, it now accounts for only 1/5 of our GNP. The other 4/5ths of the economy is growing faster than the 1/5th related to oil is shrinking. Now here is a link to an article with a graph of the growth of the GNP. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GDP/106/10yrs You will see a slight slowdown between 1999 and 2001, before Bush took office. That was the bursting of the Internet bubble during the Clinton years. It satrts climbing again and flattens out for a few months between 2001 and 2003. That was 9/11. Then you will see it climbing again until it gets to about mid 2003 where it suddenly ramps up and starts growing at a faster rate. That was the effect of Bush's evil tax cuts. Unless I missed something we are still on that faster growth rate which is steeper than anything seen during the Clinton years back to 1995. Here is a blow up of 2000 to the present http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GDP Just because I report good news you have to spin it into bad news in true Kerry style, Now instead of bitching at me about what I reported that Paul Harvey said. Why don't you call him a liar? You can go to paulharvey.com and hear him say what I said he said. Here is corroboration on the 4% number for the third quarter of 04: http://www.canada.com/news/business/story.html?id=e351a7f1-9684-4ec2-96b3-6a60bec8a483 To be perfectly honest though, which I always am, there was a slowdown of .3% in July and August and .1% in September Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:59 PM OG: The chart you have chosen as your analytic representation is of a scale such that it shows the over all trend which the country has been on since 1948. You're not going to see anything from that perspective which has any bearing on things. It is like taking a picture of Earth from Arcturus and saying "WEar? I don't see any trouble there!" A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:10 PM Here, OG -- the Federal Debt Held By Foreign Investors. Notice the strange reversal around 2002. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:15 PM Oh, here's an analysis of our business ratio between inventory and sales. Note the distressing change in trend around 2002. Inventory to Sales Ratio: Total Business. I agree there are some statistics you can find that make things look better. I think you have to take the whole picture into account. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: chris nightbird childs Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:30 PM "Your OLD road is rapidly fading. Get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, 'cause the times they are a-changin'" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:56 PM Amos: No data that goes against what you believe is ever going to satisfy you. I searched on GNP and the first thing I found was the chart so I used that. You accuse me of shopping until I found the right set of Data. I am not your enemy. We do have some common ground. You said the number I quoted from Paul Harvey was bogus. Then you start babbling about the stock market, ratios, federal debt, foreign whatever. My statement was about the GNP and the number was 4% not 3%. I had a hard time finding any site that stated the GNP growth rate and the first one I found was in Canada. When I found it said there was a slight shrinkage in the last three months I stated it so you couldn't jump me about that. Take a deep breath. Nightbird: Run that by me again. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,BooBoo Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:03 PM Is that all you can't talk about Kerry is a asshole or Bush is a big liar. One thing all people forget is they are human and this is politics. Politics is a mind game. All Bush and Kerry want are to rule the Nation. There is nothing exactly wrong with it but you must ask yourself who would lead this country in the direction you feel is right. Leaders need to take a stand and stay firm. They also need to feel the people and what they need. I don't call Kerry a asshole or a genius. Neither would I call Bush a complete liar or a truthful man. The fact is they are humans who are not perfect like everyone else. By personal opinion I like Bush but that is only opinion. You shouldn't smear someone's image if you don't want your image to be smeared. Respect one's choice and stop pointing fingers. Not one canidate is better than the other they just have different qualities and stances. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:15 PM BooBoo: Very good reasoning. If you read the first post you will see the reason for this thread. At first I was not opposed to Kerry but as the campaign progressed, I became opposed because of his negativity. When I saw him downing Alawi, I decided to take anti-Kerry action. Some annonymous person started a thread to counter this one and as you can see this one has over twice as many posts, proving that over twice as many people think Kerry is an asshole than think Bush is an asshole. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:31 PM Excuse me very much OG, but the number of upsets your bullshit causes and the number of angry people who jump up in protest and post in an effrt to straighten the bull out is NOT an indication of how many people agree with your thread, which was infantile in its first conception. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:17 AM Amos: So why was another thread started to counter act this one? If everybody ignores this one it will go away. Actually I laid a trap for you in my last post and it worked. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:22 AM Well, OG, if this is your confession that you are trolling instead of communicating and exchanging viewpoints, it comes as no surprise. Sorry to have let youtake up so much oif my time. Why don't you and Looney boy both crawl into the dank, shadowy, antisocial crevices you came out of. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,BooBoo Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:11 AM What is the big deal here. This thread as I have read was created because of what Kerry said about Allawi. First, if you wish to debate that is good but learn to respect other's opinions. I am not going to say Kerry is an Asshole but some of his comments about Allawi was kind of disrespectful from a point of view. As I said before we and the politicians are all human and make mistakes. As a professional I feel Kerry should have not made those remarks about Allawi but that is sometimes the way politicians work. Bush on the other hand isn't a total genius but not a asshole. Kerry has a stance I do not agree with especially because he is quite Independent and Liberal. But that is not always a bad thing depends on the situation. Bush stands on firm ground usually and doesn't waiver. So out of personal opinion I feel Bush would be better. But I am not going to go and smear Kerry he is just like you and me. TO: AMOS I respect you as a person and have read some of your replies to Old Guy. You have a stance that I see that you think you are correct at everything and nothing wrong with that. But you need to relax a little and learn to accept other peoples point of view also. Take it easy this is just a small debate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:31 AM Thanks, Booboo. There is more to this than mere debate. But, however, I appreciate your kind remarks. I'll try to be more temperate. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:57 AM Amos: Don't you get it? I am the organ grinder and you are the monkey. Kerry supporters are such fanatics. You want to come over and have a beer? How about you Nerd & Brucie? BooBoo: Yes this is more than a mere debate. It is a win at any cost Democratic Jihad. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM Well, I don't know whyy you keep grinding your useless old organ, OG. No, I guess I don't get it. Beer? Sure. As for fanatacism, I learned the hard way recently that being complaisant leads to catastrophes. Small children dying in the sand, for example. Cars full of women being shot to smithereens by scared young Marines. Stuff like that. So, if it is all the same to you, I'll be vociferous. At least until some change begins to make itself felt. Forty-odd newly trained Iraqi policemen were executed this week, to the absolute shame of their fanatic murderers over there. Americans are dying left and right over there. SOmeone has got to do something. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:40 PM The answer is shoot back until they are all dead. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM That was probably what George III thought he was doing in the Colonies, eh? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:19 PM Even if the answer were to shoot back until they're all dead, Bush has still blown it, with overconfidence, poor planning, bad thinking, careless of the cost. Now, trying to make it sound better than it is doesn't help make it better. He's no war president--should've listened to Generals instead of political buddies. He's not a friend of the soldier. A friend of mine lost his father a few weeks ago. The man served 32 years, and waited 8 hours to be seen when he was sick, no offer of food, no offer of something to drink. I wish people would look past Bush's pose. He doesn't know what it means to serve. Those who do are beginning to look for better leadership, and they deserve it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:34 PM I saw Kerry on TV today saying "We won the cold war didn't we? Who the fuck was "We"? We did not include Kerry because he voted against the steps that Regan took to deafeat the Commies. That arrogant asshole is trying to take credit for what others did despite his opposition. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: chris nightbird childs Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:40 PM Well, let's put BUsh into perspective like this... I heard a woman on the bus last week talking about a letter she got from her son in Iraq. In this letter he said, these are REAL quotes now, "I don't know how the election's going over there, but I sure wouldn't vote for my commander-in-chief." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:43 PM Concur, concur, concur, Fred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:57 PM Balls, Old Guy. Kerry was serving his nation in the Congress of the United States when the Soviet Union came apart. It was honorable service, voting his conscience as he understood it. Whether you agreed with his votes or not, those whom he represented returned him back to that congress year after year. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM A National Guard contingent of Alaskans left this week for training in Texas (ironic, wot?) in preparation for an 18-month deployment to Iraq. Two of them are people I know- a 56-year-old neighbor and the 19-year-old son of a friend of mine. The boy's mother is heartsick- her son doesn't want to go but sees no way out of it; the man won't be here to see his daughter graduate. This kind of thing is happening all across the country. I understand and accept that the "coalition of the willing" cannot be expected to just cut and run from Iraq without longterm harm to the Iraqis- But what in the world was the Bush Administration THINKING when they started this war? The very idea of not having an exit plan is grounds for impeachemnt right there, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,BooBoo Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:31 PM Okay, I would like to make my opinion heard also. My opinion is Kerry is quite Liberal and sways with voters. But sometimes that is how politions operate. In Iraq right now security is somewhat of a problem but there are many improvements that the press does not publish because it doesn't make a good story in the media. Kerry has served his country and he should not be looked down on because he put his life on line. You shouldn't judge someone's military service and put it towards his canidacy for president. One downfall that Bush has created was the creditability of America. But that usually happens during times of war. After wars are over you have to rebuild that creditability back. Both Kerry and Bush have made many mistakes in their political life but I am a person who looks at those and sees the nature of it. One thing Bush needs to do is bring some creditablity back to USA with a few more allies but Kerry should not rely totally on a International Coalition. Economically Bush is quite strong because he brought us through Sept. 11, 2 wars, and a recession. That is quite a challenge. Now one thing democrats always fight about is health care and the national deficit. That is a very old fight that has never changed. Political parties should debate about the true problems that can be fixed and not about a old topic that politicians never change. TO:OLD GUY I respect your opinion but you seem a little worked up. Just to tell you is that you shouldn't let a label that says DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN sway the way you think. You should be you and don't let a political label get to you. Even this may not be a mere debate your opinion is welcomed. No offense but your organ grinder mark sounds a little funny. TO:AMOS I feel some people here are blowing a bit too much steam. Yes I agee we should pay attention that people are dieing in Iraq everyday. But I feel we should also look at the goods and bads combined. TO:Everyone Learn to make your choice wisely when it's time to vote. If you feel Bush deserves another term vote Bush. If you want the USA to go in a different direction Vote Kerry. But always ask yourself who you feel would be best to lead this country down the path that you feel is right. Last don't let a Label that says Democrat or Republican control the way you vote. Vote the way you feel is right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:01 AM Booboo: Thanks for the reasonable voice. I think we agree that the whole scene needs to be fairly faced. I believe I am doing that. I am not pulling punches, but I am open to realistic and reasonable communication. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM Amos: George III did not have the balls to win the war and his countrymen were to wussified. Kerry was unconcious. He voted asinst everything Regan wanted to end the cold war. We won the cold war despite Kerry's Wrong votes at the Wrong time for the Wrong reasons. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:45 AM I believe if the U.S. was determined to find Osama Bin Laden, it could. Of course it could. No conspiracy theory, just different priorities. Bush is not focused on your safety or interests. One thing I hated about Clinton was that he's a cunning and strong political opportunist. It appalled me the way he threw people overboard for little media tiffs with no substance. He didn't stand behind his people. He was loyal to himself. Bush is a weak and very dependent political opportunist. No matter how appallingly and substantially his people screw up, he can't do anything but try to put a good face on it. I didn't vote twice for Clinton, and much less will I vote for a leader who can't actually lead. The boy needs help, always has, always will. Never grew a spine. Strong on the economy. Bush. Look, I didn't believe the rosy news of the Clinton years, and I don't believe Bush is strong on the economy by a long shot. Looking at overall figures is like reporting how many points were scored in sports last week--it doesn't tell you anything you care to know about what happened. What happened during the Clinton years was that they counted the Gross National Product by adding in "value added" dollars. This might include all sorts of tech add-ons that virtually nobody uses anyway. It includes a lot of crap, and that's why pretty much nobody else counts it that way. Also, it's harder than ever to figure how much anyone produces in a work-hour because people are working from everywhere, who knows when. What's happening with Bush is that extremely wealthy people are gathering big sums and doing less with it. It's not capitalism, or even trickle-down, it's sloth. Nobody can say they want to do away with social security, but it looks like they may force a crisis, then say sorry, what can we do? What they could have done was to be responsible public servants. When I say Bush doesn't know what it means to serve, I'm not dredging up his military record, I'm just talking about his presidency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:49 AM OG: I don't hagve his voting record in front of me, and since you provide no specifics, merely invective and generality, I have no basis to understand what you are looking at. But I suspect the people of Massachusetts felt they were choosing wisely, year after year. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Chris Green Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:05 PM "George III did not have the balls to win the war and his countrymen were to wussified." Erm, just to clarify George III actually didn't have the marbles to win the war. He was mad. And quite a lot of Reform MPs were in agreement with the colonists. Charles Fox leaps to mind! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:10 AM Amos: You only need to listen to the news to learn about his voting record. I am sure you could find it on the net at a .gov site but you have to pick through a lot of crap to find it. He voted for the nuclear waste storage facility in Nevada. When he was stumping there today he said: "How many broken promises do you need Nevada?" Kerry said. "But here is the biggest of all. (Bush) promised you that he wasn't going to go forward on Yucca Mountain unless it was safe. Nevada, not on my watch". Flip Flop Flipity Flop Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:15 AM I am beginning to think that Old Guy is going to vote for Bush. Sure does talk like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:24 AM Old Guy: This web page says you're a liar. Key Vote Temporary Nuclear Waste Storage Facilities - Cloture Bill Number: S 1936 Issue: Energy Issues Date: 07/16/1996 Sponsor: Roll Call Number: 0193 Cloture motion agreed to Full Member List Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO. Vote to bring a motion to consider a bill to establish a temporary nuclear waste storage facility at Yucca Mountain in Nevada to a vote. S 1936: Nuclear Waste Storage Policy Act Vote to end debate and bring to a vote a motion to consider a bill to establish a temporary nuclear waste storage facility at Yucca Mountain in Nevada for nuclear waste to be shipped to, until the Department of Energy makes a decision on a permanent waste disposal site in two years. (Cloture motion agreed to 65-34 on 7/16/96) Bill Status: Bill Number: S 1936 - 104th Congress (1995-96) Senate Passage Vote: 07/31/96 - Outcome: Passed No further action was taken on this bill, never became law. Bill died in House Commerce, Resources and Transportation and Infrastructure committe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM So does Factcheck.org, OG. "An Aug 19 ad in Nevada from the liberal Democratic group Moveon.org Voter Fund attacks Bush for breaking a promise he never made, falsely claiming Bush vowed to veto legislation making Yucca Mountain a nuclear dump. Actually, all Bush promised was to veto temporary storage of nuclear waste in the state, pending final safety studies for permanent storage which he later approved. Bush-Cheney '04 in turn attacked Kerry Aug. 23 with a misleading ad claiming the senator long supported a Yucca Mountain disposal site before promising recently do all he can to block it if elected. In fact, Kerry voted against singling out Yucca Mountain as a storage site as early as 1987." Stop passing out these lies, will you? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:34 AM Oh, and ...aHem, there, Ol d Guy. A letter from Bush! http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/02/20020215-10.html :Presidential Letter to Congress Text of a Letter from the President to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President of the Senate February 15, 2002 Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:) In accordance with section 114 of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982, 42 U.S.C. 10134 (the "Act"), the Secretary of Energy has recommended approval of the Yucca Mountain site for the development at that site of a repository for the geologic disposal of spent nuclear fuel and high level nuclear waste from the Nation's defense activities. As is required by the Act, the Secretary has also submitted to me a comprehensive statement of the basis of his recommendation. Having received the Secretary's recommendation and the comprehensive statement of the basis of it, I consider the Yucca Mountain site qualified for application for a construction authorization for a repository. Therefore, I now recommend the Yucca Mountain site for this purpose. In accordance with section 114 of the Act, I am transmitting with this recommendation to the Congress a copy of the comprehensive statement of the basis of the Secretary's recommendation prepared pursuant to the Act. The transmission of this document triggers an expedited process described in the Act. I urge the Congress to undertake any necessary legislative action on this recommendation in an expedited and bipartisan fashion.: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:13 AM Kerry For "Screw Nevada" Bill, Which Was Added To Larger Budget Reconciliation Bill And Signed Into Law. (H.R. 3545, CQ Vote #419: Adopted 61-28: R 18-23; D 43-5, 12/21/87, Kerry Voted Yea The legislation, attached to a $15.9 billion spending bill for 1988 energy and water resources programs …" H.R. 2700, CQ Vote #383: Passed 86-9: R 40-5; D 46-4, 11/18/87, Kerry Voted Yea A vote to affirm the chair's ruling was a vote against Reid and in favor of Yucca Mountain. (H.R. 4567, CQ Vote #180: Upheld 68-29: R 39-7; D 29-22, 6/14/88, Kerry Voted Yea Kerry Voted Against Amendment That Would Divert Money Away From Yucca Mountain. The vote was to table, or put aside, an amendment offered by Sens. Reid and Bryan (D-NV) that would have transferred money from Yucca to a drug abuse block grant program. A "Yea" vote was against Reid and Bryan. (H.R. 1158, CQ Vote #125: Agreed To 77-17: R 51-0; D 26-17, 3/30/95, Kerry Voted Yea Kerry Voted For Radiation Standards That Were "Opposed By Nevada" And Nevada's Senators. "In 1996, [Kerry] voted in favor of radiation standards opposed by Nevada … ." Sen. Richard Bryan (D-NV) was concerned that the EPA and NRC were restricted in terms of how to apply the standards that were included in the amendment. Kerry voted for the radiation standards and Sens. Bryan and Reid voted against the standards. (Erin Neff, "Nevada Captures Attention," Las Vegas Review-Journal, 7/28/04; S. 1936, CQ Vote #256: Adopted 86-12: R 52-0; D 34-12, 7/31/96, Kerry Voted Yea Kerry Voted To Table Amendment That Would Require Integrated Management System For Accepting, Transporting, Storing And Disposing Of Spent Nuclear Fuel To Comply With All Federal Laws And Regulations. (S. 1936, CQ Vote #258: Motion Agreed To 73-27: R 52-1; D 21-26, 7/31/96, Kerry Voted Yea Kerry Voted To Kill Reid Amendment That Would Have Required State's Governor To Give Prior Written Consent Before Nuclear Waste Could Be Transported Through State. (S. 104, CQ Vote #36: Motion Agreed To 72-24: R 52-2; D 20-22, 4/10/97, Kerry Voted Yea Kerry Wrote Letter To Then-Senator Frank Murkowski Asking For Expedited Waste Handling To Yucca Mountain. "Along with three other Northeast Senators, John Kerry also wrote me a letter in 1999 when I was serving as Chairman of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, asking that nuclear waste from Massachusetts be given priority shipment to 'a centralized, permanent facility. Las Vegas Review-Journal Doubts Kerry's Claims. "Yucca Mountain has been on track for 20 years, under Democratic and Republican congresses, under Democratic and Republican presidents. Are we to pin our future on the hope that one politician can (or even wants to) change all that, based on a last-minute election-year conversion? Hardly." (Editorial, "George W. Bush For President," Las Vegas Review-Journal, 9/12/04) Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:20 AM Amos : 1 citations OG : 9 citations By normal Democratic vote counting techniques, Amos is the clear winner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:16 AM According to FactCheck's analysis your charges are typically distorted and inaccurate. I notice no source for your huge number of misleading citations. How many repetitions does it take, BB, to make a falsehood sound true? How much bullshit do you have to pour on before it becomes a fact instead of just more of the same old crap? The Facty Check summary (see link for details): "Bush-Cheney '04 in turn attacked Kerry Aug. 23 with a misleading ad claiming the senator long supported a Yucca Mountain disposal site before promising recently do all he can to block it if elected. In fact, Kerry voted against singling out Yucca Mountain as a storage site as early as 1987." A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:41 AM A as usual, you do not address the citations brought up against you. The citation you have may certainly be true, but at the same time the ones showing he voted for Yucca numerous OTHER times may also be true. If you want to make a valkid arguement, address the points your oposition brings up, instead of persisting in personal attacks. "I notice no source for your huge number of misleading citations." Actually, OG did give his sources, if you bothered to read the post instead of just jumping to attack. "How many repetitions does it take," Amos ", to make a falsehood sound true? How much bullshit do you have to pour on before it becomes a fact instead of just more of the same old crap?" MOST of your statements have failed the SRS test, by being from blatently biased sites. I cannot give any credit to anything from THOSE sites, if the mere fact of something being on a conservative site is to be considered as invalidating the fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:47 AM Excuse me -- the FactCheck.ortg analysis was not biased. In fact, Vice-Resident Cheney is the one who recommended it. It is also clear you are still resorting to negative generalities. I see on closer examination a couple of references to the Las Vegas Law Journal. Why no URL? Better still, why not a link? I provided one to a reasoned analysis whicih indicated that both sides in the Yucca Mountain argument were guilty of false charges against the other. Why didn't you read it? Why are you resorting to ad hominem bullshit again? What are you doing up at this hour? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,BabyBBvs.OGvs.Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:56 AM WAHHH!!!! AMos is liberal!!big mean liberall!!! he's mean to me and old guy!!!old guy reads paper too!WAHHHH!!! arrrrgh! blow it out yer meatwhistle you punk!! kerry's an asshole!! yer an asshole!!! assholeassholeasshole!!! got it? how's about i say the same old shit again?!!! over and over you assholes!! To my view you are being either disingenuous or intentionally obtuse, I am not sure which. But that is just my opinion. I could be wrong. WAHHHH!!!!mean wiberals mean wiberals!!!if you don't like my source then i don't like your source!!!!nyah nyah na-na-naaaa!!!WAHHHH!!!! shut up you moron!!! yer just a festering boil on americas ass!!! and mine too!!! Balls, Old Guy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:57 AM A How am I "resorting to ad hominem bullshit again?" I am attacking your use of biased sites- and I did say some, not all. I am attacking your lack of response to OG's citations: Do you imply that , since there exists one vote that supports you, ALL other votes by the same person should be ignored if they do not support your premise? I attack your method of arguement. I DO NOT ATTACK YOU. Therefore, I have made no ad hominem attack. I am up because, on a 12 hour shift from 7pm to 7 am, one has to do something to stay awake. Why are you on? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:05 AM Correction- I did say MOST. I have not done a count, so I should retract that and say SOME, since I cannot give the numbers to show more than half. And I will consider that "GUEST,BabyBBvs.OGvs.Amos" represents the best that Liberals can do in terms of a discussion of facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry--not arrogant nor asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 08:53 AM Okay, Bruce. I dunno who baby-face is, but he's on your side. I still don't know which source you didn't like . No reason to go haring off looking for back issues of the Las Vegtas Law Journal, as if I had time to go mining through old paper. Without the courtesy of a URL or at least some information of where he got the data it is not a duty. Furthermore if a trusted source recommended by your side provides an analysis, why should we both not accept that analysis? And it isn't as though Yucca Mountain is a central issue here anyway. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:50 AM A bigger issue is how Bush is strong on the economy. How. How has he achieved his modest success. You may not like tax-and-spend, but in the long run, you must admit it has at least one particular advantage over don't tax and spend anyway. Whatever happened to fiscally responsible conservatives--are they all dead now? Is this what we are? Can we all rally together after our country has been attacked, but only as long as we don't have to pay taxes? Can we be bribed so easily? Are we afraid the upper middle class might have to tighten its belt, and actually live in their vestigial "good living rooms?" Is this how Bush is a regular guy, because he's running up all our credit cards and hoping to win the lottery? Kerry may be an arrogant asshole--maybe it's a characteristic of guys who went to the same college. But he has a long way to go to catch up with Bush, who has been the free world's leading arrogant asshole for awhile now. He had no diplomacy, a half-assed plan for war, none for peace. His big claim is that he's lead us to victory against a little piece of shit 4rth-rate military power, well, ALMOST. Is this what we are, now? Well hot damn. Let's go kick some little fourth grader's ass--for as long as it takes--and celebrate. Whoever wins the election, we can all hope for the best for each other, and none of us can actually predict the future. But still. Good lord. They say we get the government we deserve. But I don't remember when we killed and ate all those schoolchildren. The fact that Bush has so many supporters now has changed me, whether he wins or not. I feel less an American. It tells me something I already knew, but have tried my whole life not to believe. I feel the way I would in the audience of a pro-wrestling match--alienated, afraid, not enjoying the show, unable to root for anything, wanting out. I don't know if I want my kids to grow up as part of this cynical put-on bad-ass moron farce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 10:05 AM I hear ya Fred. I don't know how the economy thing sorts exactly -- I wonder if anyone does -- but more important the stunning notion that half the nation's people are so readily duped, taking the tokenism of false assertions as a sign of an actual condition which never shows up, is an astonishment to me, and saddens me. All I can say is, choose your people, make good friends, and live well as a sort of revenge!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:37 PM Amos: If you will carefully note I have not resorted to calling you uncivil names like stupid or liar. You on the other hand have resorted to an all out attack on me as If you have no respect for me or my views. You are entitled to your views but I am not entitled to mine. Therefore I say you are neither a gentleman nor a scholar. You are just another win at any cost Kerry droid. Good luck to you. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:52 PM I asked you when you were going to stop passing out lies, OG. But I have been careful to say more than once I consider you intelligent. And as for the lies, well, did you feel FactCheck was wrong? I accepted their analysis and if it was wrong, i apologize. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:02 PM LEt me add, Old Guy, that it was you who decided to start a public and persistant thread with the title shown above, essentially communicating to the entire 'Cat world that anyone supporting John Kerry, a decent and intelligent and brave human being, was supporting an "asshole" and contributing to "arrogance". If that isn't calling me stupid in big letters, I don't know what would be. Don't be disingenuous about the insults you have levied, just because you have done so covertly. Being passive aggressive is just as nasty as being overtly aggressive. John Kerry is a man who genuinely tries hard to do well by those who place their trust in him. Probably the only such a one running for President at present. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:54 PM Old Guy, BB, I wish either one of you or anyone else would step up to answer to the big picture. If anyone can explain to me how G.W. Bush has not betrayed my trust I swear I'll vote for him. I did trust him. I accepted the election. When he threatened war I thought, well, the threat of war might not be a bad idea with a thug like Saddam. When the war commenced I didn't see the point in opposing it. And all along I thought of course, the President is in a position to know things I might not know. Here we are. I'm not an utterly biased liberal. Give me a Dole, give me a Powell, see how I vote. I don't especially like Kerry, in particular I don't like his stance on the war. I forgive the waffle, because he probably believed the President, just like I did. But I don't like either one of his positions at the time he held them. I'm afraid I think we have to go as long as it takes. But forgive me if I don't think Bush is the man for the job. I won't call you a liar, but if you think you can dismiss all criticism of Bush as liberal Democrat bias, if you think you can tell me why I think what I think, then I refer you to the immortal words of the gentleman, and scholar, our vice president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Greg F. Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:27 PM ...OG. But I have been careful to say more than once I consider you intelligent. Q # 1: What would it take to make you reconsider, in light of his consistent "If- Its- Posted- In- A- Blog- Or- Anywhere- At- All- On -The -Internet- It- Must- Be- True" approach to factual documentation and critical thinking? Q # 2: Is a parrot's ability to accurately mimic sounds an indication of intelligence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:33 PM Fred, IMO, there is a lot of valid criism of Bush- But a whole lot more plain nastyness that is based on people's dislike of his policies. I have stated, repeatedly, that I do not agree with all that the Bush administration has done, or is doing. I thought that everything the Washington post said about Bush was accurate, and a reasonable assessment. I do feel, however, that Kerry has not given me any reason to feel that I, my family, my friends, or all the other citizens of this country, would be safer, or even better off under a Kerry Administration. I resent being told that if I hold an opinion different from someone that I will be held to a different set of standards, when having a discussion, than the people that agree with the "PROPER" view. I find that there is a simultaneous claim thet "EVERYONE" is against Bush, and that anyone who supports Bush is foolish, misled, or involved in the evil conspiracy. This selective disenfranchisment of all those who do not support the Liberal side does not strike me as fair, or reasonable. When I look at the dirty tricks being done by BOTH sides, I see that the ones done in support of the "PROPER" side are being ignored, or downplayed, while those of the "EVIL" side are blown out of proportion. This does not strike me as fair or reasonable. I have no problem with people voting according to thier opinions- I would expect them to, and see no reason that I should not have that right as well, without being subject to personal attacks and ridicule. Perhaps it is just the Mudcat, but I have seen far more reprehensible behaviour by those professing to support Kerry than by those who claim to support Bush. Should I judge the candidates by their statements, or the people who support them? From what they say - NOT what those against them say that they said - I still feel that we would be better off with a Bush administration, as flawwed as I know it to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:15 PM Well, BB, the first post of this thread calls me a blind fool and some other things, because I will not be voting for Bush. I don't particularly like Kerry but I'm willing to give a man a chance who hasn't yet utterly abused my trust. I'm not too worried about waffling, because I hope Kerry will change his mind about some things when he's in a better position to weigh them together, with the best advice from expert advisors. Like Generals for war, experts in fields, etc. If Bush is elected, I can only hope that what he has already determined to do regardless of evidence or lack of it will somehow coincidentally coincide with something good for America or somebody. Seems like an irresponsible hope for me to bet anything on. I heard a man this morning on the radio who is still undecided. He seemed a reasonable guy, paying attention. It bothered him that Kerry called the coalition puny, because he's Polish, and thought Kerry was dissing the Polish troops, saying that. He didn't like Bush's answers about jobs. We have to educate the children. As a 51 year old steelworker, this didn't seem like much of an answer. Then I thought about these things. Does he really imagine Polish troops being insulted? What is he thinking? What, this Kerry guy wants to send us help? You gonna need help when I'm done with you, you big Herman Munster looking freak. We don't need no help, you Yankees go on home, in fact, just leave me, private Ramboski. When I give the signal just send the Governator to keep the peace. Why are Americans so stupid about fighting? Why is it always bad-ass pride? Especially among those sitting o n the sofa? Of course the soldiers want and need help, but they needed it a long time ago. Now it's all f'd up royal. Arrogant. Over-confident. Didn't listen to people who know the job. Doesn't know his job is to listen. He may not be an utterly illegitimate President, but he's about as close as you can get, and maybe he should moderate accordingly. I thought he would. Now I just hope he gets his ass thrown out, hard. And I don't envy the job of cleaning up after him. Jobs. Why does this guy need a job? What a wussie. This is the land of opportunity, and he wants someone to give him a job. Well. There are new openings in post-war peacekeeping all the time. I can't understand how anyone could vote for Bush. I can't understand how he hasn't greivously abused his office and his duty. I try, but I need help. I don't get it. I can refrain from being angry, usually, but I can't understand it. Not a little. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:45 AM Fred: Someone a long time ago save me endless grief in my life by pointing out to me that sometimes when something seems utterly incomprehensible, it is just because it IS incomprehensible, inherently, and no good will come from trying to understand the incomprehensible. Bush has abused his office, his confidences, his trust; there are people who would rather see him impeached. I don't have much to do with them, but I understand how they feel. By rushing to war he has thrown the entire nation into a marginal, almost untenable situation. I think Bush would be greatly relieved to turn the Presidency over to someone a little smarter just so he wouldn't have to deal with it any longer. I am sure in his heart he is tired of fucking up and most of all tired of having his fuck ups pointed out to him. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 28 Oct 04 - 09:40 AM I wish that worked for me, but it's like when you start to look for something, and can't find it, and you can't let it go. Everyday I hear sane reasonable sounding people saying things I can't get on my worksheet. Bush's integrity. How do you get that? People say that all the time. Because he takes unpopular stands? They're unpopular because they are contrary to sense and responsibility. It's like giving Beetle Bailey credit for his commitment to loafing. Except Beetle isn't loafing on behalf of anyone else, he's his own man, at least. Old Guy, how do you get that Kerry--or, screw Kerry, ANYBODY-- would claim to fix things that aren't broken? You see no problems, no huge mounting debt, no man who orchestrated attacks on the U.S. still out and about, while we're too busy with other business to bother much about it, no widening gap between extreme wealth and extreme poverty, no general tendency for recent solutions to have no known relationship to the problems they are supposed to address, no nothing. I wish I lived in your world. I wish you lived in mine. Call me a fool and an idiot. Fine. Step up and tell me how to see it your way, seriously, please. You bring up Kerry and Edwards having personal conflicts and interests. Who doesn't? Show me one citizen who doesn't, name one viable candidate from this other planet you speak of. Remember, it IS possible to govern and legislate independent of your personal connections and interests. It just hasn't SEEMED possible for four years, somehow. It's actually possible. I'll bet on a slim chance over no chance. Bush's integrity. Good Lord. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 28 Oct 04 - 11:18 AM I don't want to trouble you Old Guy, but time is running short, and if I'm not going to be a blind fool and an idiot, I'm going to need more guidance. Walk me through it from the top. I get this part--I jump to the obvious cynical conclusions about Kerry and Edwards and the "big greedy corporation" and the "medical liability lawyer." One question--why are these in quotes? Is the "big greedy corporation" a front for something even more sinister? Is a "medical liability lawyer" actually a terrorist? or the disguise Osama has assumed to hide from us? Now, when it comes to Bush Cheney, the oil connections, the Bin Laden connections, the Haliburton--what am I doing here in terms of "knowing where he stands?" Suspending disbelief? Knowing intuitively that these are good men, who despite any slight vague appearance to the contrary have the country's interest at heart? Do I like oil better than ketchup? Consider ketchup worse than blood? How do I work it? Can I pm you my e-mail so you can keep me filled in on who is arrogant, an asshole/trustworthy, and honourable, and who isn't, if I'm still too blind and dumb to figure it out myself? Come on Guy, these things are all clear and obvious to you. I still need your guidance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,johnjohn Date: 28 Oct 04 - 11:43 AM When Amos is caught spreading lies, twisting and addins things, his post, one of 53 anti Bush / Pro Kerry posts he made thay day, disappears like 380 tons of explosives. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=73906#1309210 When he is in danger of loosing the argument he started in his own thread, he declares victory. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=74339#1305014 JJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:02 PM OG: FLimsy, flimsy, flimsy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,johnjohn Date: 28 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM Santorum denounces Rendell on ballots At issue is the governor's refusal to allow extra time for military votes to arrive. Staff and wire reports U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum is accusing Gov. Ed Rendell [D] of not giving military personnel and others overseas a fair shot at voting in this year's elections. Some area residents agree, but not always for the same reasons as the senator. The Republican senator from Pittsburgh sent a letter to Rendell's office Tuesday saying he is, "disappointed that you are fighting commonsense efforts to ensure that members of our Armed Forces and other Pennsylvanians living overseas are counted in the 2004 election." Among other thngs, the senator argues that since two of Pennsylvania's 67 counties - Venango and Huntingdon - sent their absentee ballots after the Sept. 20 deadline, the governor should support an extension of the deadline, which is tomorrow, for the return of all of Pennsylvania's thousands of absentee ballots. And there are murmurs among some conservatives that Rendell, a Democrat, is trying to suppress the usually heavily Republican military vote. Some locals aren't so sure. "I think that that's an opinion," said Tracy Clocker of Larksville, wife of Staff Sgt. Kevin Clocker of the 109th Field Artillery, who is stationed on the border of Iraq and Kuwait. "But at the same time, I think all the absentee ballots should be counted." Clocker added that she didn't want the military absentee votes to end up uncounted like some of Florida's minority votes in the last presidential election. Others say they can see a political motive. "Maybe a lot of people think the governor is for Kerry and they know a lot of the military is for Bush, so they think that's why they're not pushing to extend it - to cut down on votes," said Mark Davenport, father-in-law of Spc. Raymond Cannell of the 109th Service Battery, who is stationed about 60 miles north of Baghdad. The governor wrote a letter to Santorum earlier this week after Santorum appeared on conservative talk radio raising questions about an extension. The letter stated the two late counties were required by the Department of State to send their ballots by express mail and provide an expedited way to return them free of charge. Rendell also had this to say in the letter: "... Members of the media and others continue to call on me to extend the deadline for the receipt of military and overseas ballots. As an attorney, you know that I do not have the power unilaterally to extend deadlines set by statute - and it is disingenuous for anyone who believes in the law to even suggest such an action." On Oct. 20, United States District Court Judge Yvette Kane denied a request from the Department of Justice for a two-week extension of the absentee ballot deadline. The Justice Department had asked for the extension to send new absentee ballots without Ralph Nader listed on them. Late Wednesday afternoon, two plaintiffs in Venango and Montgomery counties filed suit on behalf of their children, Army Spc. Steven Reitz and Army Spc. Matthew Schramm, seeking an injunction and a 15-day extension for their absentee ballots, said Josh Wilson, the political director for the Republican State Committee. The suit was filed in United States Middle District Court and will be heard by Judge Kane, Wilson said. Some area residents say the deadline for absentee ballots should be extended regardless, because of the time it takes the ballots to travel to and from their destinations. "It takes longer to get mail from overseas," said Renee Koepke of Tunkhannock, whose husband, William Koepke, a staff sergeant with the 109th Filed Artillery, is stationed in Kuwait. "For regular mail, a letter can take 10 days. A package takes up to two weeks." Davenport said the deadline should be extended especially in times of war. "After all, they're the ones over there doing the fighting," he said. "I would think their votes counted even more than ours should." http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/10031833.htm JJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:56 AM Well, thanks Amos. Now I think I understand it, a little. Old Guy, this is rude of me, and I'm sure I'm wrong, but since I don't like to qibble in detail, post links, quote at length, and since you won't post me your overall take, I'm going to guess at it. The reason you put "greedy corporation" and "med. liability lawyer" in quotes is that you are mocking the book of conventional liberal dem. wisdom and it's indictments of the Bush administration. You are drawing parallels--that one could just as easily make these counter-charges, you are calling anyone who votes Kerry a blind fool and an idiot mainly in response to the general tone here that says or implies that about anyone who votes Bush. I think you want to vote in support of the larger ideals and direction of the party, which Bush espouses and surely beleves in, sincerely--despite that there are some serious problems and the world isn't perfect. I think you want to draw parallels to reassure mainly yourself that some things that bother you are mainly just partisan attacks, which you can easily turn around. That just doesn't add up for me. The partisan stuff is there, as always, but for me there's a lot more that just that weighing in against this President. Despite the larger goals of the party, Bush is simply a poor and very compromised leader who has and still is making some unavoidably bad things worse. In short, it sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself that voting Bush isn't a partisan-biased error, especially given the alternative. And I'm guessing you've convinced yourself. But in the long-term, there's no way now that Bush can be remembered well by history--it's too much, too many big misjudgements, too many troubling but ultimately unanswerable questions of his priorities, he's passed his potential by, and mainly missed. He is a generally failed President. There's no real equal parallel to that to be drawn about anyone who hasn't been a president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Burger Meister Date: 29 Oct 04 - 03:26 PM "Opinion Journal from the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page Amid the controversy over "Unfit for Command" and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, it's worth noting that John Kerry's surrogates continue to overstate their man's Vietnam record... Still, for the most part O'Neill and co-author Jerome Corsi have Kerry dead to rights on his antiwar activities. He did accuse fellow servicemen of war crimes; he was a leader in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, a group headed by a fraudulent "veteran" who was a far-left ideologue; the North Vietnamese did use Kerry's public statements to demoralize American prisoners of war. All this has been widely reported in the past. On the other hand, the chapters on Kerry's Vietnam service are inconclusive--with the exception of Kerry's Christmas-in-Cambodia yarn, from which he has backed away even though he once said it was "seared--seared--in me." O'Neill and Corsi quote various vets who served with Kerry and dispute his accounts of the events that led to his being awarded five medals (three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star). Others who were there, however, back Kerry's versions." http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005516 BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 29 Oct 04 - 05:14 PM I think you guys should all take a gander at Going Up River before you go shooting off your mouths -- it makes Kerry's anti-wart activites very clear. It also makes his war record very clear. The chapter's on his serrvice are pretty much what they are claimed to be. He went to harm's way voluntarily and stood up against enemy fire and survived. He came home and took on mob-think as a new variation of enemy fire and survived that. He has more balls than any of these half-baked posters have shown, and has shown more integrity, courage and ability to communicate than anyone in the Bush administration. THe comparison between them is laughable, and one of the indicators of this is the desperation with which his right-wing detractors reach until they nearly fall over to find material to discredit him. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Oct 04 - 07:44 PM Amos, Going Up River is as much a biased, one-sided presentation as any by the Swift Boat Vets. Or is it you think that propoganda is always right when it suupports your side, and wrong when it supports the other? A discussion of the facts of the matter, not which movie version you like better would be more useful. "And if you aren't canvassing or calling all evening tomorrow -- though we truly hope that you are! -- the Sundance Channel is re-airing the breathtaking finale of the Vote for Change tour, which was presented by MoveOn PAC to benefit America Coming Together. Tune in on the Sundance Channel at 6:30 pm, ET Saturday, for the show, which features Bonnie Raitt, Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band, Dave Matthews Band, The Dixie Chicks, Jackson Browne, James Taylor, John Fogerty, John Mellancamp, Jurassic 5, Keb' Mo', Kenneth "Babyface" Edmonds, Pearl Jam, and R.E.M. If you have a satellite dish or receive over 60 cable channels, you probably have the Sundance Channel. PAID FOR BY MOVEON PAC www.moveonpac.org Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. " But I guess cable is so much less of a public media, so it is ok to present this, but not ok for the Sinclair backed movie... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 29 Oct 04 - 09:55 PM I'm not bothered by Kerry's anti-war activities because it was a stupid goddamn war bungled from the top and paid for at the bottom--which reminds me of another. I really don't have the heart to quibble over the short strokes. I'd just like to hear how someone adds up Bush's actual record in large measure into a positive number. Or is the only way to support him to subbornly not see the forest for the trees? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:08 PM Fred, I think that, for some of us, your last paragraph applies to Kerry. It is a matter of what one considers more important about the candidate- each of us has a difeerent set of values to apply, and each will come to a difeerent conclusion. But I guess freedom of speech only applies to those that go along with the party line..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:09 PM Consider what is possible : http://www.bandofcitizens.org/citizenflicks/visualizewinning.html A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM Bruce: That's horse shit. However, I feel you are not seeing how duplicitous your beloved leader really is, nor how much damage he has done. There's an old saying that says "none is so blind as he who will not see", and I feel this applies to you. That's my opinion. I know you want to twist this around as you have done with many other posts, and make it say something different,. but I wish before you do that, that you would try to understand it just as it is. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM Amos, Hardly an unbiased site- So you will go watch a Bush site's version of what will happen after Bush is re-elected? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM Amos- crossposted The problem is that I see you as being blind, and not even willing to look at the facts when they are presented. I have tried to understand what you have posted, but it it basically "Anyone who does not believe what I believe is stupid and should just shut up." You demand "facts" from unbiased sources, then continue to post fron blatently partisan ones, yourself. You ask us to look at one person's dream of a possible fuuture, as if it had any possibility of becoming true, with not effort to show how it will come true. There is a major disconnect between what you say about the world, and the way that the world actually works, at least IN MY OPINION. Try being a little less dictatorial at to what you allow others to think, and perhaps you might actually be able to present you view as a possibility- NOT as a definition. Have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 29 Oct 04 - 10:46 PM A Bush site showing what it would be like if he were elected? I think I know how it would go. First, there would be the usual applause and tears and congratulations. Then after a stunned silence would come the questions as the Republicans realize that it's only going to get worse. Republicans aren't dumb- other than some obvious ones, *G*- so they WILL start verbalizing uncomfortable truths. Winning is one thing- living with a win is quite another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:41 PM Ebbie, And we are expected to believe that Democrats really think the site posted by Amos reflects anything real? Even Republicans don't think that Democrats are THAT dumb. But I do agree with your last line- for ALL of us. "Winning is one thing- living with a win is quite another. " I just hope that, whoever wins, we will survive to be arguing again in 4 years... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:53 AM BB: You seem to be getting personal again. As for the chasm between the "way the world works" and my vision of how it works, I think I tensd to err on the side of optimism sometimes. But I feel there is a similar gap between reality and your view of it, especially if you think Bush's management has demonstrated competence, intelligence, effectiveness, or other managerial virtues. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Bunky Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:07 AM Ron Davies: "we need a pro-Kerry site----e..g. the Wall St Journal, CNN etc Wall St. Journal, that well-known leftist rag. Have you ever read their editorials? " "Opinion Journal from the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page Amid the controversy over "Unfit for Command" and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, it's worth noting that John Kerry's surrogates continue to overstate their man's Vietnam record... " http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005516 BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:31 AM Amos, I have never stated that "Bush's management has demonstrated competence, intelligence, effectiveness, or other managerial virtues." I have stated that the decision to attack Iraq , based on what was known, and the conditions at that time IMO, seemed to be required by his position, and was correct. YOU insist of defining other people- YOU keep telling us what we believ, and then castigate us for having an opinion that differs with you. YOU have been making personal comments about the inteligence and integrity of all those who have said anything that you do not approve of. If nothing else, you should at least respect Bush, since you imitate what you claim to be his way of treating people and facts. I have stated that there were others I would rather have seen as candidates, on both sides. But, given the choice I have, I have stated repeatedly the reasons I feel that Bush , while a lousy choice, is better than Kerry. I am sorry if you do not agree: But if you decline to have a reasonable conversation, insist on special priviledges ( your quoting partisan sites, then disallowing anything that you disagree with from other partisan sites), I fail to see why that should be my problem. Have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,S Hill Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:47 AM "An Open Letter to John Kerry US Constitution Article 14 Section 3 Disqualifies You From the Presidency 10 October 2004 Senator John Kerry c/o Democratic National Committee 530 S. Capitol St. SE Washington DC 20003 Dear John In April 1971 you testified as a Naval officer before Congress, giving the North Vietnamese what they hadn't gotten from American POWs in Hanoi: a confession of war crimes. According to Senator John McCain (14 May 1973 US News & World Report) your testimony was "the most effective propaganda they had to use against us." Your photograph is displayed in the Vietnamese Communist War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City (www.WinterSoldier.com)in the room of tribute to the American anti-war protestors who helped the North Vietnamese win the war. North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap wrote in his memoir in 1985 that if it weren't for anti-war activists such as youand the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which you led and represented, they would have surrendered; but as a result of your activism and that of others like yourself, American POWs stayed in prison longer, they were tortured longer, the war lasted longer, America surrendered, and thousands more Americans and Viets died. You gave aid and comfort to the enemy. Now, on the campaign trail, you are calling the war against Saddam Hussein and terrorism in Iraq "the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time." You are giving aid and comfort to the enemy again. The United States Constitution, Article 14, Section 3, provides that: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President or Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States . . . who, having previously taken an oath . . . as an officer of the United States . . . shall have . . . given aid and comfort to the enemies thereof." The law is perfectly clear. You have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution, as a Naval officer, as a Senator, and you seek to do so again as President. To uphold the US Constitution, Article 14, Section 3, you must resign from the Senate, and resign your presidential candidacy. Your presidency would be a violation of the US Constitution, Article 14, Section 3. Very truly yours, Jim "Zak" Szakmary Long Island, NY Zak/USMC/F 2-11/Viet Nam/'68-'69" http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_5554.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Sam L Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:35 AM Bearded Bruce, I don't see how my asking someone to please explain to me how they support Bush amounts to denying anyone freedom of speech. True, you've responded, and I appreciate that, but still I don't get it. I'm trying, honestly. I'm not afraid of Kerry because we're not electing him king. Every one of his past personal failings--if you see them that way, doesn't portend disaster to me. Bush seems to me to operate as a monarch, to an unusual degree, which is divisive when we should unite, and, allowing the possibility of good intentions, but setting them aside, it's destructive in the result. But I don't expect that to happen with Kerry, or most anyone else who is qualified for the office--if anyone really is. Most people can listen, a little, can moderate, can absorb, can respect other voices. Bush's steadfastness is his utter and unique flaw--it's what makes him a dangerous idiot. I believe intelligence knew better, diplomacy knew better, the military knew better, the whole rest of the world knew better, but Bush had to make tough decisions that were wrong and grant me, a bit suspicious, and stick with them against advice from any and all sources. I can't support that. A man who can see both sides of an issue is more my man, scares me far far less. Because that's how this thing is supposed to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:41 AM Fred, Sorry about that. My last line in that message was NOT directed at you, but those that seek to intimidate by ridicule and insult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:41 AM Thanks for clarifying your position, there, Bruce. Your accusations are annoying but I am not going to get into an argument about them. I don't think I have hassled you about sources, although I have said that the Washington Times is more likely to be biased and inaccurate than the Washington Post. I think that is true, because the Times is owned by a known cultmeister, a religous zealot. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:53 AM A I do not disagree with you about the Washington Times- I read it trying to get all the viewpoints, not just the Post's. It IS conservative. But just because a source has a bias does not mean that one can discard all the facts it presents. A large number- and no, I have not counted them yet- of your sources are obviously biased to your viewpoint- and I would be willing to accept the facts that they ppresent, if the facts that I present from my sources were being accepted. But why should I consider ANYTHING from YOUR biased source, when you discount EVERYTHING from MY biased sources? I was taught to look at the facts, and try to determine what reality was, not pick and choose the "Facts" that support my viewpoint, and ignore the ones that do not. Being human, I sometimes fail- but at least I try, unlike a number of those here on mudcat who make no attempt to get both sides of any situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM I was taught to look at the facts, and try to determine what reality was, not pick and choose the "Facts" that support my viewpoint, and ignore the ones that do not. Being human, I sometimes fail- but at least I try, unlike a number of those here on mudcat who make no attempt to get both sides of any situation. Hear, hear, Bruce! I concur whole heartedly with your approach. The problems begin when "facts" turn out to be taken out of context, evaluated as more important than other facts when not, altered in their sequence, or told in isolation with other relevant data missing. I offer for example the facts and the consequences of the facts offered by Resident Bush to the nation over and over, about how Saddam Hussein was allied to Al Queda and possessed mass-destruction weapons and the ability to deliver them against the U.S. All the tales told were distorted. It is possible that the intention to go to war against Saddam Hussein preceded 9-11, had nothing to do with WMD, and arrived at the White House the day the Bush team took office, I don't know. Now you and I can throw opinions and conclusions around here all day. We aren't changing the face of life int he United States very much with our opinions. When Bush's false facts were promulgated, the machinery of war fired up, and a thousand troops walked in to their last days. Perhaps 100,000 Iraqi -- most of them civilians -- were earmarked for death. This is the sort of abuse I will not tolerate, and my protest against this inhumanity is why I get a bit strident sometimes. Because thousands of lives have been snuffed out because Bush didn't verify his data. ANd why didn't he, given that he was entrusted with executive responsibility? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:47 AM A And yet, there are complaints that, on 9/11, Bush sat there, waiting for more information rather than jumping up and doing something. It seems to me that he is damned if he does anything, and damned if he does not. PERHAPS he acted in haste on Iraq- How many months? BUT looking at what was thought true, I still feel he would have been derilect in his duty to the nation if he had not attacked Iraq, after the UN refused to take effective action. Saddam HAD more than enough chances- To allow him further time did not in any way resolve the problem. I am still upset that, even after the US declares the situation in Sudan to be genocide, there is NO effective action by the UN. Yet, how can we complain if the US does not act unilateraly, now? I also note that the sudan threads drop off the bottom here, or are hijacked to Iraq, but that the multiple threads insulting both candidates are always active. Seems to me that there is a very selective choice of protests against inhumanity, here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:10 PM "BUT looking at what was thought true…" What was thought untrue by most everybody but the neoconservtives in power here. "I still feel he would have been derilect in his duty to the nation if he had not attacked Iraq, after the UN refused to take effective action." The UN was taking effective action. Saddam had gotten rid of his WMDs "Saddam HAD more than enough chances- " Chances to get rid of the weapons he had already gotten rid of? And what actions anyone takes on Sudan has no effect on the wisdom of Bush's declaration of war on Iraq. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:14 PM The Sudan situation is ugly and awful. Had our resources not been over-committed in Iraq we might be doing something about Sudan right now. The scene of Bush gaping in the classroom has been over-used as a PR point, and is not as damning in and of itself as it is being made. The man might have been deciding on strategy for all I know! But the actions he took thereafter were wanting in a number of ways. I think he did rise to the occasion in the subsequent address to the nation and he did the public Walk Rall number well. And that is about all. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:29 PM Clint, ""BUT looking at what was thought true…" What was thought untrue by most everybody but the neoconservtives in power here." No, what was thought true by the British and US intelligence comunity, and reinforced by the information from Russia. If everyone though it was bad information, why didn't anyone just tell Saddam to open his borders and let the US search? Or even tell Saddam to comply with the UN resolution(s), and thus remove the threat of an invasion. ""I still feel he would have been derilect in his duty to the nation if he had not attacked Iraq, after the UN refused to take effective action." The UN was taking effective action. Saddam had gotten rid of his WMDs" Then WHY was he still in "substantial non-compliance" with the UN resolutions? You have never addressed the fact that the UN has stated that Saddam did not comply. ""Saddam HAD more than enough chances- " Chances to get rid of the weapons he had already gotten rid of?" Chances to comply with the UN resolutions THAT HE WAS IN SUBSTANTIAL NON-CDOMPLIANCE WITH. "And what actions anyone takes on Sudan has no effect on the wisdom of Bush's declaration of war on Iraq." Agreed- so you feel that the UN has again acted correctly in not dealing with a situation agreed upon to be genocide- Yet you want the US to allow the UN to determine when the US can act in self-defense? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Porky Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:49 AM "Kerry Balks at Sending Troops to Sudan" http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/1097197804 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: chris nightbird childs Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:53 AM We should've got out after getting the Al Quida, and we should not be there now. Bottom line... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM Irrefutable evidence that Kerry is an arrogant asshole. Old Guy rubbin' it in |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM Ha, ha, old guy. You realize that right after the links to this very thread, the search produces: "More voters see Bush as arrogant asshole." You should have put quotation marks around "Kerry is an arrogant asshole" if you wanted to see how often that sentiment shows up. Your only hits will then be on your own lame invective. And by the way, you "rubbing it in" only proves that one guy is an arrogant asshole...Old Guy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Howdy Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:26 PM Nerd: Are you in the ranks of the Blind Fools or the Idiots? Old Guy ain't in either. Or maybe you are now in the ranks of the "Impeach Bush" or the "Kerry Won" factions? HD |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM Nope. I'm in the ranks of "Old Guy is an arrogant asshole," though! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Dr. Wank Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM Rightly so. Notice the all-American "kick them when they are down" approach that Old Guy is taking. This is indicative of where his loyalties lie. I would say he would make a stellar student in my studio of self-abuse. Dr. W |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: *Laura* Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM At least he (Kerry) doesn't think the French have no word for entrepreneur!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or that terriers are about to attack the world!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:07 PM I've been away from this thread for a while, but I'd like to speak with bb if he's still reading this. I'm tired and I just want to talk about the last couple of paagraphs now. You quote me "And what actions anyone takes on Sudan has no effect on the wisdom of Bush's declaration of war on Iraq." And you answer "Agreed- so you feel that the UN has again acted correctly in not dealing with a situation agreed upon to be genocide- Yet you want the US to allow the UN to determine when the US can act in self-defense?" How the hell do you know what I feel about the UN's actions or what I want the US to allow? I didn't say anything about either. I meant just exactly what I said. I meant you're getting off the subject. I meant what actions anyone takes on Sudan NOW do not make Bush any smarter or dumber IN THE PAST, when he decided to attack Iraq. The rotten situation in Sudan does not make the rotten situation in Iraq any better. Or worse. You may be right in thinking that the posters here are neglecting Sudan, but that does not affect the truth or falsity of what they say about Iraq. You're switching the subject from Bush /Iraq to Mudcat/Sudan. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM clint. I did agree with you. I said AGREED. I feel that the US acted appropriately in attacking Iraq, after the UN did not act, and that the US is NOT acting correctly in allowing the UN to let the genocide continue. You have been saying that the US should not have acted without UN permission- I had assumed you were consistant enough to believe that held for Sudan, as well. If you do have some moral backbone, I apologize for thinking otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM I just want to say that Kerry deserved what he got. If you read the first post You will see why I started this thread. It is still true now. When the campaign started I was not opposed to Kerry being the president but as the campaign wore on and he turned more and more negative, as he continued to blame every tiny thing on Bush as if he ordered things to go wrong, I was forced away from Kerry. Then when I saw him on TV downing Alawi, I had it up to here. If the arrogant asshole had any feeling for the troops in Iraq other than as a tool to get himself elected, he would never have done such a traitorous thing. He is a disgrace to the military and he deserved his resounding defeat. OG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: *Laura* Date: 06 Nov 04 - 07:23 AM ENTREPRENEUR!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:10 AM John Kerry is still and arrogant asshole and Amos is still a burned out, demented Scientology freak of nature. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 01 Feb 05 - 12:21 AM Old Guy is a whiner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:05 AM Old Guy: You pop in here after a full year and have nothing stornger than watery crap to offer? Get back on your meds, you old shithead. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,oldvet Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:22 PM Kerry is the worst kind of self serving opportunist who, thanks to a recently brilliant electorate, is relegated to junior Senator under Teddy (ever ready to party hardy) Kennedy. Kerry not only didn't deserve to be President, he barely deserves to windsurf on Nantucket after leaving Vietnam only 4 and a half months into a 1 YEAR TOUR on trumped up Purple Heart citations. Crewmen on his Swift Boat died before his tour would have been legitemately finished and yet we all know that he profitably used this extra 8 months Stateside to escoriate these very men and others as "War Criminals" simply to further his political aspirations. Compare this behavior to John MaCain who refused release from the Hanoi Hilton after six years as a POW because he would leave the other POWs behind. Arrogant asshole? Why Sir, you don't do the man justice. He is a self serving opportunist whose actions border on cowardice and whose lies border on treason! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Cluin Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:24 PM Bran muffin time! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:10 PM Oldvet: You have been badly fooled, I am sorry to tell you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM Partisanship...the key to dividing and controlling America. Kerry AND Bush laugh at all of you...but not as hard as their controllers and handlers laugh. Whoever you vote for under the Redemocrapublicants (one party posing as 2 parties), you will get more lies, more war, and less of a secure future in Fortress Amerika. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Geeze/Young Geeze Date: 09 Mar 05 - 05:59 PM You know, Kerry remains an arrogant asshole to this day. The people who supported him are crazy, sick, ignorant or just plain loosers. What or Who else can the Democratic Party come up with as their next presidential candidate? Hillary Clinton? HAH! She is another arrogant asshole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:05 PM Ooohhhh!!! Cut to the quick! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM Yes, that really hurts, doesn't it, Carol? Next, they'll be saying that William Shatner can't act! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:20 PM Sorry Old Guy, But Bush has gotten us into an unwinnable war. Look at Iraq. It's not getting better. Look how long we've been trying to quell this insurgency and it is only getting stronger and more defiant. Not only are Americans dying for no reason--something you never even talk about, dead Americans seem to have slipped your mind--but we cannot continue to pay for this war. This fiiscal we will be spending about $3 billion a week. In two years, we've spent half of what the entire Vietnam War cost us in 15--and we had far more troops there and still lost. This country is going to suffer a severe recession with a lost war and a very destabilized Middle East courtesy of our current administration. You can rant against Kerry all you want--he's out of the picture so your bitching is mystifying to say the least--but the bottom line is that Bush has royally screwed the world with his bullshit. And it is maddening because we had no reason to go into Iraq to begin with--nothing to gain as we are now finding out. It also irks how the media is so stupid and blind that they go along with Bush and his democracy shit when that was NEVER his reason for going there. His reason, as you'll recall, was to find weapons of mass destruction. He failed, he admits it and he still insists he did the right thing. Now you tell me who the arrogant asshole is. And just so you know--I'm a proud veteran who did time in the Middle East. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:25 PM LOL, LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:28 PM Nice post, GUEST,AR282. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 02 Apr 05 - 10:13 PM I find it rather contradictory that a scientologist would tell someone to take meds. Either they are admiting scientology is bull shite or they are not able to cure themselves with their own brainpower (measured in nanowatts). Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Apr 05 - 10:18 PM Well, maybe he was a reform scientologist. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 02 Apr 05 - 10:20 PM OG: I think you have deep misunderstandings bordering on the neurotic -- about me, and about scientology, and about why it is always so dark where you are. It might have to do with your cranial displacement vector. If you have something specific and relatively intelligent to say, I would be delighted to hear it. Otherwise, get back on your meds. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 03 Apr 05 - 12:00 AM My guess is that Old Guy is thinking about Christian Science rather than Scientology. But hey... they do both have the word "science" in their name. We're all up against the wall... of SCIENCE! --FST |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Nerd Date: 03 Apr 05 - 01:39 AM Somebody must have blinded Old Guy with science... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:08 AM I want to hear a defense of Kerry now that the smoke has blown away. Where have all the Kerry Supporters gone, long time passing. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:13 AM No-one in their right mind would rise to your masterful baiting, OG. Your intent is clearly to add smoke, sludge, vitriol, unreason and sarcasm to anything said. You are bitter and non-communicative. Kerry's virtues -- which outweigh the resident's several hundredfold -- can take care of themselves without any help from you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:30 AM If you have something specific and relatively intelligent to say, I would be delighted to hear it. I have no meds to get back on. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM We're not your performing monkeys, Old Guy. If you want entertainment, I suggest you pay a visit to your local Chuck E. Cheese's establishment, or your local titty bar... whichever suits your tastes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:06 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:16 PM You must remember, Old Guy, that the primary (and probably only) real reason for most of those Kerry supporters was a simply desperate feeling of urgency to get Mr Bush out of the White House...by any means possible. That was it. Period. Why would anyone but you be going on about Kerry now? :-) Why would anyone care? Now do the therapeutic thing that we all do to ease our tension now and then. Go to the nearest window, open it, take a deep breath, and yell... "I AM AN ARROGANT ASSHOLE!!!!" ...to the World in general. The last time I did this all the dogs in a radius of a mile or two starting barking and it went on for some time. I felt much better. Do it every time those intensely hostile partisan feelings come on, and you will soon forget all about John Kerry...like most of the rest of us have. I mean, really, why would I want to vote for John Kerry...except to get rid of George Bush! I'd vote for Howard Stern if I thought it would get Bush out of the White House and back to Crawford, Texas, where he could do what he does best...barbecue. Not that I'm suggesting Howard Stern might not turn out to be just as bad as GW in the long run, but at least it's might, rather than absolutely WILL. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Once Famous Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:35 PM Nice going, Old guy. You had Amos going there for a while. Yank, Yank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM Hahaha! So he did. Joke's on me, sucked in by pinheads again. Sheeshe. Teach me, Martin, that I may learn not to have a chain, nor ever be a Yankee. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:45 AM Some Lyrics endorsed by John Kerry the arrogant asshole and therefore by Amos who echos Kerrys policies: Pocket Size Death by REALM Trigger happy nice boy Runs around with his toy Reaching out to nothing Pocket size death He has this feeling When he gets really Mad he has to shoot Pocket Size Death His head is filled With such a thrill Cause he gets revenge with Pocket size death Chorus Black stone harmony will restore All that he's been looking for Trigger happy youth wears a nigger proof vest Trigger happy youth has pocket size death Gotta gun, gotta gun Gonna go have some fun Revenge joy, revenge joy See those little fuckers run Gotta friend now that will Never turn his back Sticks up for me If I can't kick your ass You better run, better run Gonna have me some fun Blood stained sidewalk Hey you fucker better run Me and my little friend We're gonna take over the world Me and my little friend Were gonna get a girl Me and my little friend We're gonna give it a whirl Me and my little friend Staring the apocalypse of the world OG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 16 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM Lest anyone forgets the poison pen attacks of Amos who worships his hero John F Kerry, the looser, here they are again. He has yet to answer the question about the 9 year secret war and how it compares to his fanatical tyrades against GWB. He goes to extremes never putting anything into context like a rational, logical, inteligent, civilized person would. His mental thought paterns are those of a Muslin extremist. After 28000 plus posts on Mudcat he has convinced no one of anything but he continues in his obsession. Keep at it Amos. When you pass, hopefully someone will put a laptop in your coffin so you can keep on keepin' on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Don Firth Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:10 PM By starting and maintaining the thread "Popular Views of the Bush Administration," Amos is doing yeoman service for those of us who are trying to keep up on latest skullduggery the Bush League is involved in, and since there is so much of it, may possibly miss something. Keep up the good work, Amos, and thank you, many times over. This, it appears to me, is the primary reason GUEST,Old Guy is attacking him. Could it be that GUEST,Old Guy is the arrogant asshole around here? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:31 PM Good God. I used to think that Old Guy had a viewpoint- not one I agreed with, you understand, but a moral stance from which he was acting. Now I only wonder who he really is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Peace Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:37 PM "I have no meds to get back on." I would contribute to getting you some. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: CarolC Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:51 PM Maybe he thinks we actually care about Kerry. Can't imagine why, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 16 Jan 06 - 04:12 PM Goodness, OG -- I am flattered that you went to all this trouble just on my account. While I supported Kerry over Bush, because unlike Bush he has demonstrated in major terms that he has a moral sense --both in fighting a war AND in seeking an end to one when he realized it was a major mistake -- you are (again) sadly mistaken about my position relative to Kerry. You attribute the many posts in the "Popular Views" thread to my poison pen, without noticing that (a) the vast majority of those posts are references to articles written by others and (b) on the very rare occasion when Bush tries to demonstrate honesty I point it out. It happened once, I think. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Ebbie Date: 16 Jan 06 - 04:22 PM That only proves that Bush too can misspeak, Amos. He didn't plan to tell the truth. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 16 Jan 06 - 11:59 PM He has yet to answer the question about the 9 year secret war and how it compares to his fanatical tirades against GWB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 17 Jan 06 - 12:03 AM I see no comparison of merit, Old Guy; and I don't think I need to answer Trivial Pursuit questions from flamers and nabobs of negativity. What is happening today is far more important than what happened in 1997, 1967 or 1937. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 18 Jan 06 - 02:42 PM Amos: So you are saying it is OK if a president sends US troops into combat in a secret war without the knowledge if Congress, without declaring war or having permission from congress, without telling the American public about it after making the statement in his SOU address that we will tell congress and the American public everything he is doing? If you want to see a clear example of negativity you immediately condemned something attributed to Kerry as being a lie because of the source. The original information came from johnkerry.com You can not recognize the truth when you see it. You use your internal hate filters to determine the truth instead of common sense. At the same time you declare GWB is violating the constitution by doing much less. Where were you at back then? Sailing around the Mediterranean doing the bidding of your cult leader hero while your comrades were committing suicide or being murdered and getting involved in assassinations of leaders of sovereign countrys? Please go over all of the details of your past for us like you do for GWB. And as far as me being a nabob of negativity, All I see from you is negativity. If you want to see a clear example of negativity, you immediately condemned something attributed to Kerry as being a lie because of the source. The original information came from johnkerry.com that you frequently quote. You can not recognize the truth when you see it. You use your internal hate filters to determine the truth instead of common sense. You sir are a hypocrite in denial. All I do is point out facts that show what you accuse GWB of doing has all been done before to even larger degrees but you try to make it sound like something new, some new barrier that has been broken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: GUEST,Young Guy Date: 18 Jan 06 - 02:45 PM The person who started the thread and the person the thread is about seems to have been reversed in the initial post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 06 - 02:57 PM OG: No, I am not saying anything of the sort. And let me add that I am tired of your taking each thing I say and twisting it into some demonic perversion resident only in your own mind. You twist and alter things for the worse and you vilify people for reasons which you, yourself, project. Why do you suppose that is? If you'd be decent enough to do so, remind me what this accustation of condemning a lie from johnkerry.com is, because I cannot find it readily and I don't have a lot of time to spend on your twisted rationalizations. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Old Guy Date: 18 Jan 06 - 03:37 PM I appologise for accusing you of discreditng information that originated on the johnkerry.com website. That was Bobert and RD. I hope you can see I am trying to be fair. To get back to my original objection of your negative reporting, I never see you take anything into context and you constantly accuse others of the same things you are doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 06 - 04:06 PM Hmmm...it occurs to me, OG, that in some bizarre cosmic turn of fate we are looking at each other like two fun-house mirror reflections, neither one of which is the original image! :) You say things about me which I immediately see as your projections. I say things about you which you say are just my projections. Funny stuff, huh? Thanks for trying to be fair; no hard feelings. A |
