BS: Hitler's normal voice

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM

You're all right. Hitler was deceptive. He was evil. The people were misled but if they had been taught to listen to their conscience instead of authoritarian figureheads, he would never had had so much power. The church has always instilled obedience in people. The Catholic church in Germany certainly contributed to the mass mentality of the people.

The only thing that we can do now is try to overcome our tendancy to give authority so much power in our lives. I'm sure Bush has studied Hitler extensively. At least he understands the power of the media to manipulate information - Hitler was a master at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: jack halyard
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:15 AM

On the subject of evil, I am reminded that Hitler aspired to be a painter and some of his works are still extant. Apparently he was a realist at a time when abstract and semi abstract were the fashion.
What might have happened had he been mentored by a sympathetic artist? We may have had a great painter instead of a great dictator.
I am also reminded that many in the middle east talk of the US as "The great Satan".

I keep wanting to ask "What is this thing called evil?"
We think we know it by its deeds, but what other forces may be acting on a man to produce those deeds.?

                              Jack Halyard

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:39 PM

Huh? I would want OJ acquitted? You must be joking. I thought he was guilty, dead guilty, so guilty that it was absolutely blatant. And so was Hitler (but not in his own eyes). For all I know, OJ probably felt "justified" in what he did too...but you bet he was guilty!

You're not even trying to comprehend what Jeri and I were talking about, oh, anonymous one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:36 PM

interjecting (late) about Jeri's post:

OJ was aquitted because 12 jurors didn't wouldn't find...etc..

a couple of them admitted that they INTENDED to acquit him from the beginning, and simply ignored all the mountains of evidence. This is how I hear some people talking about how they will vote in Nov. They have a preconceived notion of what should happen, and reject all argument to the contrary. Hitler knew how to play to those kind of minds, and how to make MORE of those kind of minds. Germany in 1930 was especially ripe for those ideas, but ANY country has its share of "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts" people, and we need to see that they are among us always.....and sometimes in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:06 PM

"No..." Mcgrath has it right as I think through this... I do find it far more worring that (at least for the purpose of this post) that rather than an "insane" preson leading it appears possible for the "insane" to lead the sane and the sane to belive they are still sane...

Jon (still trying to wrestle though a difficult but interesting thread)

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:44 PM

I agree with you too McG. I maybe should not have used the word 'made.'

'Persuaded' is far better. I think that the fact he could 'persuade' is testament to his skills as orator/leader/manipulator. And as Bill said, the combination of all three is IMO evil, when the consequences of his persuasion was fully known to himself.

I am not sure if I credit all of his followers with the same foresight. But the higher henchmen I am convinced had to have a sadistic streak that was capitalized upon.

I have no qualm labelling him evil. It is not a trait that I bandy around often, for which I am very glad. But I do genuinely think we are in the grip of similar sheep like worship of a true threat to the world as we have known it.

But I do not credit Bush with the intelligence that I think Hitler possessed. Apart from that, their agendas are as evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:20 PM

Noone is ever "made to believe" - we are tempted, cajoled, persuaded, whatever you call it. But the ultimate responsibility, when we fall into a trap like that, lies with ourselves. "We were led astray" is no more valid as an excuse than "we were only obeying orders".

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 06:04 PM

Yes I agree with you. I think he did have all three, which made him evil IMO. Had he just the former he would be misguided but well meaning, and I can't accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:58 PM

These are not mutually exclusive attributes---in fact they are complementary---with them both you can become evil incarnate. Which Der Fuhrer did---aslong with his group of sadistic and also manupulative henchmen.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:51 PM

But it must have been the 'way' they were told that made them believe? He was either a natural orator/leader or a manipulator.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:11 PM

"He made the ordinary people feel ...

I think "made" is maybe a word that provides an escape from the reality.

The reality being "He told them all those things - and they decided to believe him".

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM

He made the ordinary people feel as though they were under threat from the minorities he despised. They were scared and believed him. Yes, it could happen anywhere. The scariest part nowadays is that the means to destroy the supposed threat are far bigger, lethal and far reaching.
Our biggest threat at the moment wears a suit and a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:53 PM

...and place blame elsewhere.

But the main blame for Hitlerism did lie elsewhere, in the ordinary people who followed him and lifted him to power. Without them he'd probably just have been the kind of bore you sometimes run into in pubs, and avoid.

We may find it puzzling that so many ordinary people in Germany weren't repelled by his mannerisms, but the really terrifying things is that they weren't repelled by his message. And there is no reason to think that this was a matter of there being something peculiar about Gerrmans. If it could happen there, it could happen anywhere, given certain circumstances.   

The important thing is to work out what were the reasons why ordinary decent enough people could follow a Hitler, rather than to focus on the particular pathology or whatever of the man they followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:32 PM

I have come to believe that Hitler didn't give a rat's ass about the German people. I think his whole goal was to create a modern empire (emphasis on modern). This was only possible by destroying the old Germany and re-building with U.S. post-war funds (which I don't think have ever been re-paid). Thus the emergence of a totally modern Germany with brand new infrastructure.

He knew he could manipulate the masses through media but the minorities (being outside of the mainstream) would have to be exterminated or re-located.

...and who do you think won World War Two?

Yes, there is definitely evil in this world. Know your enemy.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 10:11 AM

...and Bill, the people who not only assist him, but especially those who just let him get away with it.

I live in Queensland, and tonight ABC2 TV had a retrospective look at The Springbok Tour of 1971, Premier Joh's declaration of a "State of Emergency' over a football game and the subsequent politics that led to the phrase "Queensland - Police State" - a famous bumper sticker in the checkered colours of the State Police. The Police Commissioner tried to resist him and was undermined by the rapid promotion from nowhere of one Terry Lewis to Deputy Commissioner, who was eventually sentenced to 14 years for Corruption by a famous Royal Commission.

It was on the way to happening here in Queensland - I lived though it. I was once filmed by The Special Branch for attending a Play at La Boite with a Political Theme.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:29 AM

Bill, I apologise for 'mis-placing' you in terms of your origins - I have a tendency to get very cross when people from 'across the ditch' give an impression that they don't have any appreciation of what the 1939-45 war in Europe involved, and what it meant for those who lived through it (which thankfully I didn't) and for many years afterwards (which I do indeed remember). I can see that you have good cause to understand that conlict - my apologies again. And a third apology for misunderstanding the reasoning of your post - I get your meaning now, and I agree with your final paragraph above.
Best wishes,
John

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:56 AM

So many thoughts---many valid.

Foolstroupe---good point re: business people making money of him---thing Industrial and Auto companies.

Jeri---The people who do evil do it in the name of the leader--he surely cannot do it alone. Were the leader not to incite them they would do no evil.   Many current political things come to mind---but Adolf was a cut above all that---playing on people's fears and hates.

StrollingJohny---in fact I was born in Vienna and saw the Anschluss as a child---Anschluss---the Austrians welcomed the barbarians with open arms. They were, until recently, less apt than the Germans to admit to their sins.
                   That said, I add that I am well aware of all the proper honors and memoriams for the sacrifices made to end this reign of terror and hatred.
                  What I am saying is that to try to humanize this epitomy of evil with the charisma of a great speaking voice that mesmerized people in a depression by talking about is "nice quiet voice at home" or some such thing is to trivialize him and place blame elsewhere. Best to remember the demagogue, the maniac, the power hungry paranoid.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Teresa
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:29 AM

No offense to Austrians intended, but was Hitler Austrian? That might account for his "accent". Not the sort of dialect formally taught in American schools.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM

OJ was aquited because 12 jurors didn't believe there was enough evidence to convict him. It's not the same thing, and I wonder if you didn't understand what I was saying at all.

I think there's plenty of evidence against Hitler. People were his weapons, his tools, but he was still responsible. And what can we learn from history that might keep this from repeating? We can learn not to be tools, we can learn not to be silent, and we can learn to question. If we say it's all the fault of one man, we have said we're powerless. If we deny our own responsibilities in making tyrants possible, this sort of history WILL repeat. It HAS repeated countless times, but never on such a grand scale. Not yet, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:17 AM

I've often wondered if people actually understood what Hitler was saying. I've listened to a number of recordings, and can hardly make out a single word - as opposed to my almost full understanding of German radio and television. I've never heard anybody speak German like Hitler did.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:55 PM

Hitler wouldn't have got anywhere if some rich and powerful businessmen hadn't thought that they could use him to make money for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:36 PM

I don't believe Hitler was the epitome of evil either.

Right.

"Frank and Jesse James were products of their environment.They were sent out into the woods by their parents to forage for berries, truffles, rutabagas, and roots of all sorts. Put yourself in their place: you'd have been mean, too."

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM

Thanks for the link, Wolfgang, and to everyone else for this most interesting discussion. Mudcat at its best, other than the music threads.

Jon, there is a belief that entities of unhappy souls who refuse to move on, do plague the living, esp. if the living are open and willing for such things to come through. In metaphysical jargon, one might say their "root" chakra was wide open, while their "higher chakras," those which keep them in alignment with their god, would be almost closed, thus leaving them open, and, in some cases willing, for such attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:34 PM

Opps some of my last post was clumsy - I meant execption to my own thoughts... and I seem to have allowed the possibility that the exception to Jeri and LHs thoughts were...

Apologies to both of you.

It's a really hard one to get through but thanks Wolfgang for starting what is to me at least an intregiung thread. Other comments here have caused me to question myself, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:25 PM

The exception to the above may be my demon theory but even if there are things like that, we still know right from wrong - at least we do within our own terms of undersanding/learning. The difficulty there would be listening to the right. I'm not promoting Christianity here or suggesting it is any more valid that any other belief system but the simple "Love thy neigbour" idea can go a long way regardless of faith. It is perhaps one we will all need to apply soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:10 PM

No Guest. I honestly think Jeri and LH have done no more that trying to rationalise human behaviour, as I tried. I do not believe that trying to understand good and evil in anyway would equate to (if im understading you correctly) to jusitifying actions we all know are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:26 PM

After reading Little Hawk's and Jeri's posts I think I now finally understand how OJ was acquitted. Those who don't learn from history...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Chris Green
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 07:18 PM

Little Hawk - I think you may have misunderstood me (unsurprisingly as I didn't express myself very well in my previous post - this is still something I'm teasing out in my own mind!) What I was referring to was the concept of "guilty but insane" that I believe still stands in law - ie: that someone may have done terrible things but cannot be held culpable for them as they had no idea what they were doing was wrong. (I believe it's known in the UK as the McNaghten Law, after the bloke who tried to assassinate the Prime Minister was found guilty but insane). What I was trying to say is that is not only wrong but dangerous to apply this verdict on Hitler and his ilk - they must surely have been aware that the genocide of people purely because of their race or creed was morally and in every other sense repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 06:46 PM

Hitler was quite capabe... even of coming across to people as pleasant and affable

One q

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM

The just released film is AWSOME! Very well done. Very accurate. Very chilling. A work of genius.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:23 PM

"Christian notions of man being inherently evil" - "prone to evil" is the way I've normally heard it put. Meaning quite liable to go wrong in some circumstances, and that seems common sense, and consistent with experience.

.................
This "ordinary voiced Hitler" is a useful reminder that we shouldn't be hung up by the image we have of Hitler ranting and raving in public. I mean we should resist any tendency to use that as a reason for complacency. "These people sound reasonable enough - they don't sound anything like Hitler in those speeches".

But that's just a way of speaking in a particular setting, in a huge rally with imperfect PA. To put the same message across on television you'd have to use different techniques - sound warm and frendly and trustworthy, for example. But it would be the same message for all that.

In the same way people get to think that the stage trappings of Nazism were what it was all about - the uniforms, and the mass parades and the pageantry. And then they start thinking that, when those things aren't to be seen, it means there is nothing to worry about.

We are now living in a time when, because of technology, those in power, potentially, have total control over our lives in all its detail, in a way that no previous rulers could even dream of. There'd no need for a modern day Hitler or Stalin to use the clumsy tools of the past in order to shape society in a way that ensured holding on to power.

That's why it is important to realise, for example, that Hitler was quite capabe of speaking in an ordinary voice, and even of coming across to people as pleasant and affable.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM

Yup - The bullies get their power from us.

If only people would stop being blinded by fear and start listening to their hearts the attrocities would never happen. Ignorance and fear lead to an awful lot of pain.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:58 PM

I'm curious. The powers-that-were--How did they react to the stripping? Greece? Rome? England?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:27 PM

And what sort of extreme actions might his electorate willingly support under those circumstances...and who might they blame for their troubles?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM

I think this is a timely discussion, because any of our very important world leaders could have the potential to exercise the same power that Hitler did. The things that happened under Hitler still happen today around the world, although not as widely recognized.

I think it takes a combination of factors to come into play for a despot to become truly effective.

Suppose the United States were in the middle of something resembling the Great depression, and had just fought and had been defeated mercilessly in a great war. What kind of leader might Bush be under these circumstances?

T

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM

Right on, Ebbie. Hitler was most certainly not starting from ground zero. There are currents of fear and prejudice present in any population which can be tapped into and used by a clever politician to advance a destructive national policy (which of course HE sees as being a constructive and worthwhile national policy).

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:12 PM

"What Hitler was good at was public speaking and knowing how to get to people - how to stir them up and convince them he was right" Jeri

I would add that Hitler knew how to affirm the people's belief that their secret - and not so secret - prejudices and biases were correct. I suspect that he didn't have to start from ground zero.

Which may be what is going on now in the US. Reagan did the same thing, I believe, by making some people feel that the "unfortunates" must be flawed or bad in some fundamental way, or they too would be able to prosper.

Who knows where this kind of thinking will end. I think we are well on the way.

A Juneauy songwriter, Buddy Tabor, wrote a song, 'Jesus Loves Me" (more than he loves you) that addresses that. One of his lines says "I'd help you but I know you'd just go and sin again."

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:56 PM

Yes, but on a conscious level they regarded what they were doing to be accomplishing something that they saw as...."good"!

So, how do you explain that? Do you really think that Hitler got up in the morning and thought things like, "What really evil terrible thing can I do today? How can I make more people suffer today? How can I make the world worse today? How can I spread pain and misery today?"

LOL!

No, he got up in the morning and thought things like, "How can I protect and strengthen the German nation today? How can I secure a victory for our armies? How can I defeat the treacherous enemies that menace us on all sides? How can I root out the traitors and criminals within our midst who would destroy our nation? How can I save Europe from the scourge of Bolshevism?"

Those were obviously his main conscious concerns...and they had already led him into a total mess by the time the Second World War began. Paranoia is its own worst enemy.

You can call it evil if you want. I call it fear, weakness, and ignorance, and I call its results in the world evil.

I don't exactly think Hitler was insane, I think he was paranoid and unstable. Such people can eventually go insane when put under great pressure...Hitler had various hysterical episodes which qualified as temporary insanity, after the war started going badly for Germany. He would fly into screaming rages and lose all control. That's temporary insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Chris Green
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

I think that sometimes we comfort ourselves with the notion that people like Hitler, Stalin etc were insane. As I understand it the legal definition of insanity is that the person accused did not understand the consequences of their actions, and this certainly does not apply to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or any of the other leaders of the twentieth century who were responsible for genocide on a massive scale. They weren't insane, merely evil, however, uncomfortable it may be for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 01:15 PM

That was a brilliantly perceptive post, Jeri. (the first one) Well said.

Leaders like Hitler are not responsible by any means for ALL the evil things that result under their leadership (although they do bear great responsibility for inspiring much of it). The complicity of many other ordinary people is required. The leader, as such, becomes a symbol of all that in the eyes of those opposing his nation...just as Saddam Hussein became a propaganda symbol around which George Bush was able to arrange an oil war. While Saddam is undoubtedly a bully boy and a despot, he does not add up to be the apotheosis of total evil that was concocted by American propaganda in order to manipulate public opinion in the USA.

People get carried away with this sort of thing.

I wonder how the average Palestian, for instance, would rate Ariel Sharon or George Bush on the good-to-evil scale? :-)

It is the losers of wars who get nominated for "most evil man of all time"...generally by the people who defeated them. It's a familiar refrain. The Germans saw Churchill that way...and Roosevelt and Stalin. They would have put any one of them on trial and executed them for "crimes against humanity", had Germany won that war...and they would have felt very righteous about doing so, I'm sure.

Be that as it may, I will agree without reservation that the Nazi system was an exceedingly evil one...as was Stalin's government too. The American and British governments of the time were in large measure self-serving (as governments generally are) but they were definitely far, far better in a moral sense than either the Nazis or Stalinist Russia.

Jon - Yes, I'm familiar with those Christian notions of man being inherently evil. I consider such notions to be completely erroneous and most unfortunate. There are certain individuals, however, who are profoundly negative on a conscious and instinctive level...as you described. Those are people who are living in great fear and ignorance (but they may not superficially appear fearful if their fear causes them to be aggressive or cunning in their effort to cope). I don't believe the Soul of such a person is evil, but the surface mind of the person certainly is turned toward evil as a survival mechanism. It's a case of the person's mind being cut off from useful connection with the Soul...because of fear.

We are capable of making choices along a range from most positive to most negative. When we are afraid and feel separate and vulnerable, we tend to move toward the negative end of the scale.

The Soul is never afraid in the least, because it knows it is immortal and invulnerable. The surface mind is usually afraid on many levels, because it identifies itself with a mortal and quite vulnerable body. From that limited awareness flows the materialistic and fearful view of life. The mind can be freed from such fear by becoming intimately acquainted with the Soul and taking the Soul's direction and inspiration...and that is what spiritual discipline is all about.

What is the purpose of the Soul? To express and to be Love under all circumstances. Since a human being IS his/her Soul...permanently...and is not truly the body/mind (which are temporary constructions that pass away)...that is why I say that human beings are essentially good.

The eternal Soul of the man you described at the garage would see that very negative life of his, once it was over, the way you or I might see a bad dream that we had just woken up from...not real, but of some use in further understanding the interplay of what we term "good and evil". The Soul would have been watching the whole process from a point of detachment while it unfolded...and the man himself would have had no awareness of that on the level of his mortal mind...which figured it was all alone in an insecure world of physical win/lose scenarios based upon mere survival, and apparently devoid of love or of any higher purpose.

There's very little in mainstream society to encourage people to think anything other than that...but there's an essential nobility in the heart of humankind that leads them eventually toward the wisdom of the Soul, and its one teaching, Love. Only question is, when? If not now, when?

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:31 AM

In case anyone's immediate reaction to what I said is to believe I'm trying to excuse Hitler; no, and I DO think he was evil. My point is that there have been, and are, loads of people who are just as evil as he was. The difference between them and Hitler is that, for whatever reason, they don't haven't been given the power to act on their evil by followers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:45 AM

Re: the banality of evil   If you accept that evil is in the world at all, it seems to me that you must accept that   Hitler was evil ( and not just typically male). It may have been innate, or partially caused by his early experiences, particularly his frustrations on many levels, but he was in fact evil, and circumstances in Germany allowed him to express this on a huge scale.

As far as the voice: when I was in Germany I bought a little book called " Haben Sie Hitler gesehen?"--answers by ordinary Germans as to if they'd ever seen Hitler, and their reactions. One I particularly was struck by was the answer of a salesman, born in 1929, who said that he had a neighbor who said that when Hitler spoke " I could have just about stroked the radio" ("ich koennte geradezu das Radio streicheln ". It's unlikely she would have had that reaction to a rant.

My masters thesis was on the Nazi attitude toward the US as seen in the" Voelkischer Beobachter" (as you know, one of the official Nazi organs). It was fascinating to see in the pages of this "newspaper" how the picture changed. It was by no means unrelenting hostility.

At the start the focus was on similarities to the US--the approach was that both countries, in desperate circumstances, had summoned up strong leaders with bold new programs. Contrary to popular opinion, at least in the VB, Jesse Owens was lauded.

The picture obviously darkened as Hitler planned war. As US hostility became more evident, the VB ascribed it to FDR being misled by "amoral" Jewish advisors. In 1939-40 the focus was on alleged British atrocities, and then on Britain's isolation---the implication being that there was no point to the US being involved (thus, I suppose, to the German audience, that it was unlikely--in fact as you know Hitler declared war on the US first, saving FDR from a possible awkward situation.)

In the early stages of the war the VB started printing obituaries of many Germans killed, but soon ceased that entirely. And only at the end of the war were there screaming headlines warning of Bolshevik hordes ( and wondering at the West's suicidal attitude in allowing this to happen).

Sorry for the thread creep.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:31 AM

I don't believe Hitler was the epitome of evil either. I don't believe Hitler did all the evil things he's often accused of. His followers did, but it's too hard to blame a faceless mass of people. It doesn't seem right to blame that prison guard who shepherded people to their deaths, the police who arrested people for not toeing the line or neighbors and acquaintances who ratted out Jewish people, homosexuals, communists, or anyone else that didn't fit in with the plan. It's not possible to identify and blame every person who helped give Hitler all the power he had, who raised a hand in salute, or who merely didn't speak out against the atrocities. These were average people, like you or like me.

We need somebody to blame.
We need somebody to follow. What Hitler was good at was public speaking and knowing how to get to people - how to stir them up and convince them he was right. He was good at controlling crowds and directing dissatisfaction and outright anger, and persuade people that his solutions were the best ones.

Hitler wasn't solely responsible for all the horrors visited upon innocents, even if those horrors were done in his name. Average people did those things. Average people who wanted to follow more than they wanted to question. Who, in the heat of rightiousness, ignored conscience and rational thought, and gave their individual power to an insane man. But, he sounded good.

I wasn't born at the time, but I've heard and watched recordings of Hitler speaking. He sounds like a nut. I try to listen to people who speak today to hear that same manipulative quality in their voice. I don't think the danger to humanity has ever been one particular nut or another. The lesson I learned is that the danger lies in us, and in our fellow humans' need to be stirred up and aimed at some cause. We need to listen to our consciences, and we need to question where we're being led. These are the only things that will prevent something like WWII and the Holocaust happening again. They're the only things that will make us think we might want to look for a different path, or see that there is one at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:40 AM

Jon, in reading your post I find that it contradicts your first statement

No problem at all with that Mick. I try to be consistant but one thing I'm realising as I try to analysise good and evil is that it does bring out contradictory thoughts with in me...

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:07 AM

Jon, in reading your post I find that it contradicts your first statement. Your thoughtfullness and basic decency shine through. We may not always agree on things, but you are a decent human being with its good soul intact.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:02 AM

LH, the human soul is not evil is perhaps a debatable one. There are areas in Christianity and perhaps in other religions (I've never looked at ant other) that suggest man is inherintly evil. I don't know - all I do know is that man can be capable of evil deeds and I suspect most of us have evil thoughts that we know to put down - I mean for example, have you never walked into a shop and been tempted to steal but said to yourself "no, I know I must not do something like that".

As I type this, I realise once again there a conflicts within myself - I would argue stealing is wrong but I have no concience over some software pirating. I wonder are we all some sort of conflict between right and wrong and trying to find our own balance between good and evil?

Forgetting whether a person may be good or evil, I think twice in my life I have met people that no-one seemed able to reach (and they weren't people I diliked and even amongst my enemies I can find some good quality if I am prepared to look). One was someone the garrage I worked for at the time had taken on to help. I had him for a while on the forecourt and tried my best... to cut it short he ended up getting sacked for nicking a few 5p pieces from the coffee machine when he got drinks for all... from there on he stole a car and got himself killed hitting a bus. The other was an old alcoholic (before my own drink problems). I'd visit him at night, sometimes stopping till 3am but that wasn't enough, Pip somtimes took a Sunday meal to him and the 1st comment would be "could have put more roasts on" or some other complaint.

What I'm trying to say here is I know this doesn't mean a good or evil person but I have known 1st hand conditions where no effort I was capable of was even able to raise a spark in any way. The feeling of personal failure is horrible but the belief there was nothing anyone could have done for them also exists. The human to me does seem able at least to reach hopeless states. Reading of Brady for example also leads me to think people can reach the state of evil beyond recall but I can't claim to have met anyone like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:57 AM

Bill H - pretending Hitler didn't exist (which is what your suggestion that we shouldn't remember or discuss him means) is a gross insult to those millions of soldiers, sailors, airmen and civilians who gave their lives fighting his regime, and those millions of Jews, Romanies, Homosexuals and innocent members of other minority groups who were the victims of his regime. You don't defeat villainy by burying your head in the sand, you defeat it by always keeping it in mind and working hard to prevent it happening again.

I'd guess you're a US resident. If not, I apologise for preaching to you. But if so, maybe you should arrange to come over here during November and take a look around the 'American Cemetery' at Cambridge with its thousands upon thousands of war-graves of US servicemen, tour the old now-disused USAF bomber bases and have a walk around some of the churchyards in the villages close by, and see clusters of gravestones of your countrymen. You should also witness the annual Remembrance Festivals and services that take place in towns and villages all over the UK, and culminating in the 'big ones' of the Albert Hall and the Cenotaph, and check out the way the people of the UK, most of whom weren't even alive during WW2 let alone WW1, watch the TV coverage in their millions. Then see if you still believe we should pretend that bastard never existed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:22 AM

Well, it certainly exists as a concept. We are beings who like to look at things in terms of duality. We establish reference points along a range of values. At one end we put "good", at the other end "evil"...or hot and cold...or whatever.

To a pilot in the Luftwaffe in 1940 it was "good" to shoot down a Hurricane or Spitfire over England. To a British pilot it was "good" to shoot down a Messerschmitt or a Heinkel. It's mostly a matter of perspective, I guess. They all did what they thought was good at the time.

The priests in the Spanish Inquisition thought it was "good" to torture and burn those wretched people they held prisoner...since they had assessed those people as supposedly being servants of Satan.

Each culture decides for itself what is good or evil...usually depending on what material and power results that culture is seeking at the time.

I would tend to agree with you, though, that "Hitler may not have been truly evil, but he might as well have been. He did truly evil things." Makes sense to me.

Be assured, Hitler imagined that he was defending what he saw as the "good" values. He had a very fractured and isolated view of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:07 AM

Well, I believe with Mr Clinton that a lot depends on your definition of "is." A person who has stolen "is" not necessarily a thief and someone who does dumb things is not always stupid.

But as I said to Anne Croucher, Hitler may not have been truly evil, but he might as well have been. He did truly evil things.

What would he have done differently if he had been "truly" evil?

Whether he was truly evil in his heart is between him and whtever God he had. It's academic from anyone else's viewpoint. What the world knows, what has affected us all, are his evil actions. And I believe that human evil and - possibly - absolute evil do exist.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Hitler's normal voice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 11:18 PM

No, Hitler is not the walking definition of evil. He is the walking definition of a very flawed and paranoid man with some unusual political abilities who thoroughly lost his way and attained great power...but did not know how to use it wisely or well. The destructive things he caused to happen are the definition of great evil, as we collectively assess it. War is a great evil. Murder is a great evil. Genocide is a great evil. Torture is a great evil. False propaganda is a great evil. Dictatorial rule and the use of terror tactics are a great evil. Waste is a great evil. Greed is a great evil. Brutality is a great evil.

Had Hitler simply become an obscure painter, and lived a quiet life...which could well have happened...those destructive things would not have come to pass....at least not because of him...and people would not be seeing the man, Hitler, as definitive of evil.

It isn't the man who is evil...the man is tragic. It was the results of the man's instability which were evil...as we assess those results...given the way we would all like life to be.

We would all like our lives to be peaceful, happy, and prosperous. If we are not wise enough to find a way of seeking that without hurting other people in the process, if we blame other people for our own pain and fear, then we fall into the very trap Hitler fell into. He did not see humanity as one people, united in common purpose. Gandhi did. Thus Hitler turned to hate and division and violence and Gandhi turned to Love and nonviolence. Gandhi saw the way clearly. Hitler did not.

This does not make Hitler evil...it makes the results of his extreme lack of vision evil. Hitler was tragic, as are most human beings, to some extent...but not too many of them get a chance to screw up as enormously as he did.

I am convinced that no human Soul is intrinsically evil. But I do not expect to convince anyone of that if they choose to believe otherwise. Their belief is naturally up to them, as mine is up to me. Our beliefs will take each of us, no doubt, down the roads most suitable to our own chosen way of learning. That's acceptable to me, and I hope it is to you too.