BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 10:42 PM

SpiderBush.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 10:24 PM

Just thought I would add this because of the conversation earlier.
Herman
Of course you could also consider this when talking about Kerry looking like a horse-
A horse is a horse,
Hope you all can handle a little humor tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM

It was a pleasure to see Bush sweat and squirm.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:02 PM

Kerry - Kennedy
Bush - Nixon

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: jaze
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:43 PM

I found it rather telling when Bush said he speaks with his advisors every day "when" he's in Washington. He looked like he was about to have a stroke-nervous, fidgety and douwnright surly and angry. Kerry was far more in control even when being criticized. Resolute. How many times did he use that buzzword? You can be resolute all the way to hell, but it doesn't make you right. Being strong means having the wisdom to know and admit when you made a poor choice and then taking steps to correct it. Bush appears incapable of doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:28 PM

On a aside, some of the best if not not prolific parody songs on the radio were on Imus. However I do not know if this is still true of late since my disgust with Imus has tuned me out as a regular listener.

A song writer I met on the Democratic Underground got his work performed off Broadway, Air America and on NPR. Having his own song troup he/they might contribute willingly to yur show.

I took the last 2 months off and am in a creativity shift period.
As a political humorist I will never be as good as John Stewart or Bill Mahre (or their staff of writers) so I am open to some new avenues and suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:12 PM

Oh yes I recall now. 4 years ago you asked to use one of my songs about bin Laden sung to the tune of Fernado by Abba.

I wrote about a hundred since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM

oh, those clips of Bush were priceless! They should make a commercial of just those and run it 10 times a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM

Itis a radio station where we work. I started a folk music radio show there in 1980 and invited Bill to join me a little over 10 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:07 PM

The Bush campaign is currently painting Kerry in the light of a efeminant botox, make up wearing, spandex sporting bitch of the Democratic party. While they try to portray him as a bitch in panties the Democratic Underground spin machine is merely calling Bush a liar and incompetant petulant war planner of the lowest caliber.

If I may ask,
What is the meaning of the WFDU ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:07 PM

Thanks---now let us hope that Nov. can bring us some morality and hope for humanity with the election of Kerry---and also the hope that he is what we believe he is.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:01 PM

You are right there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:55 PM

The word that can unite us here is "charisma". Clinton has it and Kerry showed some of it last evening. That is the key. Bush also has it in a way that, I believe, we both (ron) believe is not the way we want the nation to percieve as the proper way of connecting with a candidate.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Don Hackman aka Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:52 PM

Well said Bill.
It was fun to hear george stumble on his dyslexia and say "One can not lead this nation with messed mixages, uh, mixed messages".

One commentator counted the number of the most repeated words of each candidate. Among a long list, the one word Bush used most was 'freedom'. Kerry used the word 'plan' the most.

The TV stations were told to refrain from showing Bush's face while Kerry was speaking. However you may view George seething while Kerry spoke as if being slapped in the face here - http://www.democrats.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

I think we are talking over each other.   My point is that no self-respecting candiate would want to be known as "erudite". The average voter will have a different connection with the word. They want someone "folksy".

Bill Clinton may have been the most educated and erudite presidents of the 20th century, but his image to the voters was more of a "folksy" nature. He was someone that you could have a beer with and that appeals to voters. Kerry is finally approaching that image.

I'm not saying it is the correct way to choose a candidate, but that is reality. When you need large numbers of votes, you are going to create an image that reaches to the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:41 PM

Perhaps I misunderstand. My comments were that Bush and "erudite" were a contradiction in terms. Kerry was "erudite". I merely---in the other thread hoped that it would not end up as a Stensonian debacle.   

To simplify---Kerry is erudite. Bush is not erudite. I hope I am clear on this.   

Does erudition win the race. That is my concern.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:37 PM

I don't think Bush and erudite have ever been used in the same sense until now.

Erudite is not a dirty word, it is just a word that has the wrong connotation for voters. It describes someone that posses or displays erudition - "extensive knowledge acquired chiefly from books : profound, recondite, or bookish learning" according to Merriam Webster. The majority of voters do not want someone who displays that. They want someone that voices their feelings and concerns, someone who talks like they talk but has charisma. They want a leader they can trust. Kerry looks like he is filling that role.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:24 PM

May it light up the Oval Office---or any other chamber a President visits---men's rooms excluded.

In truth I have to say that he did come across as erudite(not a dirty word, by the way)---and Clinton---would that he would run again---is charismatic---as was JFK. That is what is needed. I do believe that Kerry did come across more charismatically than usual. Hopefully he can keep up the "fire" and listen to Clinton advisors.

Back to "erudite". Bush and "erudite"===that would be a contradiction in terms. Bush and "gotcha" sounds more like the extent of his ad lib and off the cuff commentaries.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 07:51 PM

It is a warm and honest smile Martin! I can't wait to see it light up the Oval Office!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 07:48 PM

"Kerry came across as attentive, erudite, and, frankly, more dynamically spoken than I have heard him."

Let's pray he did not come across as "erudite". That is the last thing American voters relate to these days. Voters want a president that they know is smart but doesn't come across as being so different. That is what made Bill Clinton so good. He was probably the smartest president of the 20th century, but he related to the average American.   

Kerry made great strides last night in connecting with voters. Let's hope he keeps it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 07:34 PM

They really should not be on a leash. They should be hidden in an "undisclosed location"----and not a spa or hey, like, what's with you, dude,--- some sort of cave.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 07:24 PM

I was astounded when Bush interrupted Kerry's praise of Bush's daughters to say he wanted to put them on a leash. Is that good rightwing Christian parenting or what?

Martin, your guy lost. Admit it and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 06:16 PM

Unfortunately I was only able to catch the last 15 min. from the ABC version--live; having just returned home. However, CSPAN showed it in its entirety with a split screen---great idea. Really put it into perspective---something one would not have had on radio (and the networks had they not given reaction shots that were verboten according to the deal).   Body language is so important---and Bush surely showed his unease, his not paying attention to Kerry but focusing on his cards. Kerry came across as attentive, erudite, and, frankly, more dynamically spoken than I have heard him.

That said---I do believe he won the debate. If, however, you think back to the days of Adlai Stevenson there is the frightening possibility that intelligent and well documented speech (in our now fully TV age) is eclipsed by the speaker who talks in the most common terms in the most simplistic ways.   This, sadly, translates to votes. I hope I am wrong since what one saw last evening was, finally, a display of the difference of two candidates and the difference between a nuanced and diplomatic person and one who wants to and does sound like the neighborhood bully.

On a lighter note---and I don't mean the color of the wive's dresses--just looking at the Bush Girls was enough to make me want to throw-up. I guess that is what he percieves to be the human touch---might as well have gotten Paris Hilton for a walk on. Say--now there could be an endorsement---he might make her born again and then he can really get the hard core faithful vote.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:51 PM

Ron, I feel the same way about Kerry's looks.

There is something about phony toothy smiles...................


Amos, looks like the last guy you backed in a presidential election was the loser.

As Don said, we'll see what happens on 11/2. I have a feeling that either way there is going to be a lot of squealing on 11/3 by someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:25 PM

Martin, you made a good point when you said our minds are not going to agree on this. Your points about his "flip flopping" were answered in my book - Kerry explained his voting which was consistent from the beginning until today. We are dealing with semantics and shades of gray - on both sides. Unfortunately, again, we each see and hear what we want and none of us will change our minds.   However, the undecided voters (and I don't think there are as many as the pundits believe) may have come away with an impression that appears to favor Kerry based on all reports.

I like you mention of car salesman. That is exactly what Bush reminds me of. If I were to shake his hand, I would count my fingers when he let go to make sure he returned them. His smirk and beady eyes really give off an image that reminds me of someone trying to sell me a junker. I don't agree that looks are a reason to vote for a candidate, but there is something about him and his father that make my skin crawl.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:25 PM

Oops, messed up the link. Let's try again:

Wooh, Bush got clobbered by the ultraconservative Jay Nordlinger, who loves him and wants him re-elected but thinks he stunk last night. At the National Review.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:22 PM

Wooh, Bush got clobbered by the ultraconservative Jay Nordlinger, who loves him and wants him re-elected but thinks he stunk last night. At the a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/nordlinger/nordlinger200410010114.asp">National Review.

A sample:

I thought Kerry did very, very well; and I thought Bush did poorly ? much worse than he is capable of doing. Listen: If I were just a normal guy ? not Joe Political Junkie ? I would vote for Kerry. On the basis of that debate, I would. If I were just a normal, fairly conservative, war-supporting guy: I would vote for Kerry. On the basis of that debate.

And I promise you that no one wants this president reelected more than I. I think that he may want it less.

Let me phrase one more time what I wish to say: If I didn't know anything ? were a political naïf, being introduced to the two candidates for the first time ? I would vote for Kerry. Based on that infernal debate.

As I write this column, I have not talked with anyone about the debate, and I have listened to no commentary. I am writing without influence (which is how I try to do my other criticism, by the way). What I say may be absurd in light of the general reaction ? but so be it.


As he began, Kerry spoke clearly, and at a nice pace. He was disciplined about the clock.

Kerry went right to the alliances. He emphasized the importance of such relationships. At least you can't accuse him of succumbing to Republican mockery on the subject, of shucking this core conviction of his.

Kerry was smart to mention all those military bigwigs who support him.

The senator seemed to rattle the president, about 15 minutes in ? and he stayed rattled. Also, the president was on the defensive almost all the time. Rarely did he put Kerry on the defensive. Kerry could relax, and press.

Kerry was effective in talking about parents who have lost sons or daughters in the war. Bush was fairly good, later, too ? but not quite as good, I thought.

Bush said, "We're makin' progress" a hundred times ? that seemed a little desperate. He also said "mixed messages" a hundred times ? I was wishing that he would mix his message. He said, "It's hard work," or, "It's tough," a hundred times. In fact, Bush reminded me of Dan Quayle in the 1988 debate, when the Hoosier repeated a couple of talking points over and over, to some chuckles from the audience (if I recall correctly).

Staying on message is one thing; robotic repetition ? when there are oceans of material available ? is another.

I hate to say it, but often Bush gave the appearance of being what his critics charge he is: callow, jejune, unserious. And remember ? talk about repetition! ? I concede this as someone who loves the man.

Why did Bush keep requesting a special 30 seconds to say the same thing over and over?

I'm thinking that Bush didn't respect Kerry enough. That he didn't prepare enough. That he had kind of a disdain for the assignment ? "For gooness' sake, the American people are with me. They know I'm doin' the necessary. They're not going to dump me for this phony-baloney."

Well, they may opt for the phony-baloney.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:17 PM

Martin:


I am sorry to say that it seems clear that you are backing a schlemiel and a loser.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM

Spatula.

We'll see what happens November 2nd.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:03 PM

No, but he does blunder on as a phony smile used car salesman. He's as stiff as a board on TV.

The guy does so many flip flops, you would think he has his own built in spatchula(sp).

Of course he is going to attack. He has nothing to defend. wishful thinking on your part, but the truth is Bush did nothing to harm himself. If anything, he held his own pretty good against someone who has some good debating skills. But debating skills do not make for a good leader. they can make for a good bullshitter though.

You are a prime example, and so am I, that most minds are not going to change on this. And then, anyway, Nader will ruin it for Kerry again, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 04:42 PM

Bush won!!??? What's that you say!??? What were you watching??

Kerry was obviously quite intelligent, had the facts and figures right at his fingertips, and he was highly articulate. He was very much on top of it when it came to fielding Bush's continuing attempts to characterizing him as a "flip-flopper" and sending "mixed messages," which, any thinking person who has been paying attention at all knows is not the case.

Bush was pretty much as I expected. He kept beating on the same points, apparently hoping that mere repetition would turn them into the truth—or, at least, convince people they were true. He was more articulate than I expected him to be (after having seen him lose it under pressure a few times at press conferences), but he did find himself with nothing much to say a few times. Long pauses where he was obviously at a loss, then he came back by simply repeating what he had said before. It was during these long pauses that I wondered (as Mickey191 suspected) if he were listening to Cheney or Rove on an earphone. For a former New Englander (before the Bush family moved to Texas, they lived in Connecticut), he did rely a lot on his "good ol' boy" persona. Kept right on droppin' those Gs.

I think the two most devastating points Kerry made were:   1) when we needed money to spend on genuine homeland security (e.g., inspecting container ships entering seaports, buttress up first responders to disasters such as police and fire departments, etc.), Bush blew it on massive tax cuts for the wealthy and further pooped it away on "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time"; and second, driving that point home when he quoted the remark that invading Iraq in response to 9/11 would be like FDR invading Mexico after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

When Kerry pointed out that Osama bin Ladin and al Quaeda were the attackers, not Saddam Hussein, Bush responded with an exasperated "I know that!" That contradicts the propaganda he managed to drum into some 60% of the population that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the 9/11 attacks by repeating "The Big Lie." And it left unanswered the question as to why he didn't allow the troops to finish the job in Afghanistan, left the job to the Afghani warlords, and sent the troops into Iraq. Iraq might have become a problem eventually, but it was an entirely different problem, and far less pressing than tracking down as many of the terrorists as possible. And he furthermore cut off dialogue with North Korea and Iran (and my interpolation), scaring Kim Jung Il into deciding to build up a nuclear arsenal and quite possibly inspiring the Iranians to go for nukes as well, by demonstrating that he, Bush, was perfectly willing to preemptively invade any country that, in his mind, might eventually constitute a threat.

I watched Kerry make mince-meat of Bush, but I must admit I was pleasantly surprised to find that the post-debate quick-polls actually agreed that Kerry had won. I'm looking forward to the town hall style debate and the debate on domestic policy. Also the Edwards-Cheney debate.

They may be stage managed, but fortunately they are not so restricting that there isn't plenty of room for genuine debate.

Don Firth

P.S.: Looks like Herman Munster? Okay, fine. I don't care it he looks like Quasimodo. The man has a brain and he uses it. That's what counts. He doesn't just blunder on like a headless chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM

More evidence that the Bush team thinks Kerry won: Weekly Standard chief Bill Kristol, on the Fox News Channel: "I talked to a half dozen Republican officials tonight and they're all a little bit deflated."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, but Frank was much shorter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:38 PM

Yes, Ron, I for one watched carefully and saw what really happened. I did see those times when Kerry gave a bad answer, and those when Bush gave a good answer. But overall, I think Kerry won.

So does Time Magazine, incidentally:

Who will benefit the most from the evening? It?s hard to see how Bush comes out stronger out of the debate than he went into it. For months, Kerry?s been lampooned as irresolute, flip flopping Frenchie. What Americans saw was someone who was in command of his facts and, at the very least, seemed resolute. Bush?s body language and sour lemon glances revealed in cutaway shots diminished him. The hunched stance that seems so Clint Eastwood on the campaign trail seemed more slumped on the stage at the University of Miami. Going into the debate Kerry had the bad rap of speaking like a senator, filled with talk of process and policy. But it was Bush who dropped names like Zarqawi without explaining that he?s a leader of Iraqi insurgents. Al Gore got the bad rap for sighing but Bush let out a few audible ones himself, like when he asked how Kerry would pay for his promises and then resignedly said: ?Well that?s for another time.? The Bush team?s hope that Kerry would constantly go over his time limit turned out to be misplaced. Kerry was concise.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:30 PM

Nerd, I agree that Herman Munster was a hard working family man, however, his twin brother Frank N. Stein was very much like Kerry in that he was a double personality, sometimes evil, sometimes a gentle soul, and was always confused as to what was best for him to do at any given moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:19 PM

Martin, my point was that everyone wanted to see or hear something and they found it. If you feel he looks like Herman Munster and you are going see that everytime you look at him. If Nerd sees Alfred E. Neuman, he will do the same. I can certainly deal with it, especially since it has no influence on me whatsoever.

Unfortunately a lot of Americans don't bother to listen to what was being said and instead focus on what the candidate looks like.

I realize you paid attention the debate and saw more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:07 PM

I actually agree with Martin Gibson that Kerry looks like Herman Munster, but I think Bush looks like Alfred E. Neumann, Mad's "What, me worry" kid. Since as I recall Herman Munster was a lovely, hardworking man, a good father, loving son, and even a great son-in-law, I'm not sure it's so bad to be like him as opposed to Neumann. I will admit, though, that I wouldn't choose to look like him.

Anyway, Larry K said that Joe Lockhart gave the "only honest reaction." I assume that's because he's a Kerry adviser who nonetheless didn't toe the party line that Kerry won hands-down.

Well, Time reports a similar hones reaction from a Bush adviser:

The Bush team would like to paint Kerry as incapable of handling serious issues of national security. Did they succeed? A Bush adviser put it bluntly: "We are on defense. We were counting on Kerry being Kerry and he came to play. We didn't expect that."

In other words, round one went to Kerry, according to the Bush team.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 03:01 PM

Ron, I want you to know that I did watch the debate with the highest level of interest.

My comments about Herman Munster are made strictly to counter the also ridiculous Bush comments "(BushBaby sometimes looked angry, and at times, as if sucking a lemon)"

The majority of liberal whiners here who dish it out also have to learn to take it. They have mostly not been able to do that here. Double standards rock this joint.

Bush may look like a chimp to some, but I will keep saying that Kerry very much reminds me of Herman Munster, which he most certainly does. I guess you will have to deal with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 02:16 PM

"1. Subways closed during RNC concention- not true 2. Never called Bush a liar- he is on record calling bush a Liar on numerous occations 3. The Global standard before going to war   4.   Spent 200 billion on Iraq- only 120 billion- the other 80 is for Afganastan."

Looks like Larry listens to Limbaugh!!!! Amazing how the disinformation gets passed around.

1. Yes, subways WERE closed during the RNC convention. They were not allowed to pass under MSG.
2. There is a difference between saying the administration lied and Bush lied.   
3. Do the math. 80 & 120 = 200. Kerry was talking about the war on terrorism. Yes, he did mention Iraq in the previous sentence, but the conversation was on how much we are spending to fight this war.

Even IF the above were true, these are really weak points.   Why is the Republican way to twist and turn their opponents words instead of using their own words to get their message across? The reason, their backs are to the wall.   People fall for the BS. You fell for it. You listen to Limbaugh and buy his blabber as the truth.   It is a real shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:58 PM

"On issues of leadership, consistency of message (flip flopping) and sincerity Bush landslided Kerry"   Larry K - you heard EXACTLY what you wanted to hear. Thanks for proving my point.   

Most people feel that Kerry did a good job of explaining his stance. Bush kept up the usual rhetoric and talking points that his handlers fed him.   It isn't working.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:56 PM

"That was the only honest response....."

Larry:

What definition of "honest" are you using? Are you implying that those responses given by others that thought otherwise were _dis_honest?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:50 PM

Before the debate I said on this forum that both sides would declare victory, and the media would declare Kerry the winner and say the race is tightening.   Exactly what happened.   So predictable.

The most honest and telling response was on CSPAN who had a camera on Lockhart after the debate. McCoury went to Lockheart and without knowing the cameras were rolling asked what he thougt.   Lockheart responded "We had it as a draw".   That is the only honest response of the evening.

Most polls had Kerry the winner but had almost no change in the polls.   ABC had Kerry the winner of the debate but had the polls at 50% to 46% before the debate and 51% to 47% after the debate.   I guess the big loser was Ralph Nader- he went from 4% to 2%.

More important is the internals of the polls.   What you find in looking is that Kerry won on style and Bush won on subtance.   On issues of leadership, consistency of message (flip flopping) and sincerity Bush landslided Kerry.

There are three elements of the dabate.   The one day reaction, the week reaction and the effect on the polls.    I think Kerry made a number of mistatements which will haunt him this week.   1. Subways closed during RNC concention- not true 2. Never called Bush a liar- he is on record calling bush a Liar on numerous occations 3. The Global standard before going to war   4.   Spent 200 billion on Iraq- only 120 billion- the other 80 is for Afganastan.

The DNC is making a video of Bush facial expressions during debate.   The RNC is making a video of Kerry mistatements during debate.   Which do you thing will play better?

The vast majority of voters are simple people.    I think Bush kept his message simple and pounded it in.   Kerry was more eloquent but all over the place.    We will see which strategy was more successfull.    Last election the polls all had Gore winning the first debate but losing ground in the polls.   Dick Morris made the statement that with more wins like that he would be out of the election.   Should be an interesting week.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:42 PM

I have mentioned up thread that I thought Bush held his ground better than I thought he would, smirks or no. ANd I was glad to see KErry do better than I worried he might. They both looked a lot more human afterwards. Which (for Bush) is a major accomplishment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:30 PM

"Oh wait, that was Herman Munster, not John Kerry."

Unfortunately, there are many Americans that were watching the debate on that level.   I have a friend who considers himself a staunch Republican who told me that he watche a "little bit" of the debate before he fell asleep. He wondered why they were only talking about Iraq.   I mentioned that the idea behind the debate was that they were going to focus on Iraq and national security and he replied "oh." And of course, he thought Bush won.

If you are looking for Herman Munster, you will find Herman Munster. If you want to see Bush as the village idiot, you will find the village idiot. Most of us watched the debate with pre-conceived notions, and we found EXACTLY what we wanted to find.   I don't think many of us really watched with an open mind.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM

The AOL group surveyed over a million people and handed the debate to Kerry 53% to 47%

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:52 PM

Both candidates surprised me, a little. I don't agree with Bush's policies, or "vision", but he was a little more competitive than I expected. He learned a new word - denigrate - and used it several times correctly in sentences. He said something a little weird when he was talking about the mother of the killed soldier - something about not being able to love her the way he should - but I haven't read any reports that picked up on it, or read a transcript to see if I heard what I thought I heard, and anyway it was minor. He didn't make a convert out of me, (any more than Kerry probably made converts from the Bush camp,) but I could see more clearly what it is that Bush supporters want and think they're getting from him, and why they're so willing to turn a blind eye to the devastation in his wake.

I think what Kerry was able to do very well was to reassure his own supporters that they're not backing a dud. I've heard a lot of people say that they're voting AGAINST BUSH who may feel a lot more comfortable saying they're voting FOR KERRY, having seen this debate and seeing the contrast between the real Kerry and the caricature of Kerry that the republicans are trying to sell us. I think Kerry did really well. I wish that he could always choose his words as deliberately and confidently as he did last night.

From what I've read, the republican spin machine is going into overdrive trying to do damage control, and I think things are going to get very nasty. That's probably a safe prediction.

Subject: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Genie
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:39 PM

Curious thing about the mainstream TV 'news' channels.

Building up to the debate, I kept hearing about how fantastic Kerry's oratorical experience and skills are but how stiff and cold he is, and how style, image, body language, mannerisms, etc., were "as important as" what the candidates say. They kept referring to things like Al Gore rolling his eyes or invading Bush's personal space or Dubya's dad checking his watch during his debate with Clinton.   They also built up how folksy, down-to-earth, and "comfortable in his own body" Bush is and how formal and academic Kerry comes across.

Some networks (e.g., C-Span and CNN) showed a split screen during much or all of the debate; others pretty much focused on whoever was speaking.   It was reported that people who did not see much of the candidates' nonverbal reactions thought the debate was more of a tie, while those who did see that "reaction" feed tended largely to see Kerry as the victor.

Now the post-debate spin seems largely to focus on any "factual errors" or "inconsistencies" in Kerry's statements -- or on the verbal statements made by the candidates in general.   It seems that, since Kerry pretty clearly seemed calmer, more poised, and more confident than Bush -- especially while reacting to his opponent's statements --, the media have decided to DE-emphasize the "style" and focus on the verbal message.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:36 PM

I watched the debate on TVLand.

Oh wait, that was Herman Munster, not John Kerry.

Kerry was just like all of those product packages that shout at you: New! Improved!

And then you realize it's just the same old tired product inside that didn't change at all but was packaged differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:29 PM

It certainly imposed a human scale to the issue, didn't it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:23 PM

You could say that the two men in question are inherently more decent than their promoters and campaign managers. They are superior to the $y$tem that trots them out in front of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:13 PM

Thanks for the insight Ron.

Excellent point L EJ. I have been feeling better about the whole situation today, and I think you put your finger on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:09 PM

I have to say that, regardless of who won and who lost, the debate last night was well conducted, featured some cleanly delineated differences in the candidates, and allowed some welcome interchanges between the two. The debates remain the single best event in the presidential campaigns, allowing something beyond sound-bite decision making and personal-attack volleyball. Both men came off much better in person than they do during stump speeches, convention appearances and attack ads.
It is always striking that, despite the personal animosity and mud-slinging, the debate format seems to bring out the best side of the candidates. I believe its akin to war. It's much easier to do killing at a remote distance from the enemy than it is chin to chin. To see both men shaking hands in front of the American flag and at least attempting to argue real issues gives me, as it always does, more faith in our process.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:44 AM

Tia - Not that I want to defend Fox, but what you saw on NBC was not the Fox pool feed.   My understanding is that Fox was responsible for providing a pool feed which is cut by a director and did not feature the side by side shots, as designated by the debate committee. I believe that C-SPAN would have used this feed. The individiual cameras were also made available to the networks, but they basically "take at risk". They could not be sure when the operator would adjust the shot.

Having worked in control rooms, I can tell you that each cameras is operated by individuals - the camera operator set up their camera shots to prepare for the director to take their shot.   Once the shot is ready, if the director likes the angle, the director will call for the technical director to take the camera. Since it is a live event, the cameras will shift to adjust for the subjects movements.

What NBC, and other networks, were doing was creating their own broadcast from the available cameras. Not having direct control of the camera operator, they had to do the best they could.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:39 AM

This morning I heard an interview with someone from the Gallup polling organization. He said, in effect, their poll gave it to Kerry, 53 to 37.

He also said that because a challenger comes in against an incumbent with a less-known aura or image, that it was particularly important for Kerry to make a good showing, and it was in fact expected that he would improve his image vis-a-vis Bush, but that the amount he picked up was extremely impressive.

Asked about what he thought made such an impression on Kerry's behalf, he thought it had to do with personal impression, and especially speaking ability, which was commented on by a large number of poll responders.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:26 AM

by midnight east coast time, all the pundits were saying Kerry 'won'...even Republicans....the question was just whether anyone cared. Some Republican were saying "well, Kerry talks better, but I trust Bush to bash them terrorists for me more than I do Kerry"...or the equivilent.

I sure hope some of them get it thru their heads that there are other issues to be concerned about.......

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:11 AM

If you watched NBC, did you notice how, in split screen, they kept shifting Bush up and down so the top of his head would be level with Kerry's? If you noticed the level of the podiums there was a noticable offset across the split, and it kept shifting up and down as Bush alternately leaned over and stood up straight. Not faulting the pool camerapersons (FOX btw) for doing it - just a little distracting is all.

Also - 11 year old daughter observed - "Dad, they are both animals...
Kerry looks like a horse, Bush looks like a turtle"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Tweed whoisalsotweed
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

Chimpanzee in a Suit V. Lincoln....Lincoln wins

Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:48 AM

The critical observation is that President Bush demonstrated only the ability to stay on script. He never answered any substantive claim or charge. When faced with mostly factual information, and challenges to his policy decisions, the President fell back to his canned responses.

Contrast that with Kerry. The Senator was engaged in the debate in a very real way. He presented his plans, he challenged the premises, and he continually pressed the President on his programs. He responded (unlike the President) when his positions were challenged with facts.

The only people that matter on this are the undecideds, the swing, the great middle. I believe Kerry will be shown to have gained in this group.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peg
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 08:12 AM

talk about repeating--robomatic, you have pasted the same response into two threads!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 06:53 AM

I was impressed by both sides of the debate. I think Bush was more articulate under pressure than I'd ever seen him. He appeared to think quite well on his feet and showed a keen awareness of world events. Kerry perhaps for the first time presented a 'complete' and consistent position at one time and place, and was on the attack.

I know that both teams practised like hell and had such a playbook full of rules for the debate that it seemed like a straitjacket was imposed on them, but the results last night made me feel better about our choices and proved that indeed there is a choice to be made.

I'd give Kerry the edge for two reasons: A normally verbose speaker, the short rigorous time limits on the answers/ responses (2minutes/ 90seconds) could have made his answers truncated or incomplete, but instead made him perform quite intelligibly. Secondly, as a challenger, he won by 'not losing'. He looked Presidential.

This was mostly a draw, however, and its already being spun like sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,Bush
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 04:43 AM

If I was referring to a decent man, I'd say--"Poor George..."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 02:03 AM

Oh, I have...I have...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:30 AM

LittleHawk, you said that Bush sounded almost biblical at the end. Check out the thread I started called "Bush As American Saviour - Seriously." You won't believe your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: emjay
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:55 PM

Bush hesitated and seemed to grope for something to say. Frequently he didn't respond to the question and certainly not to what Kerry had said. I saw Kerry writing as Bush talked and Kerry seemed to respond well, both thoughtfully and intelligently to anything Bush said. Kerry's talking about the number of deaths that increased each month was a very telling part NBC interviewing a group of undecideds in Ohio showed several indicating that they thought Kerry had won.
Sadly when the local station interviewed locals none seemed to have changed their opinions--they still admire Bush--but this state is solidly in the Bush camp anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:51 PM

Was it my set, or did Bush have an unusual orange glow about him?   The past few days they have talked about Kerry's tan, but he seemed pale next to Bush.

And who dressed Laura and Teresa?   Was it in the agreement that the wives would wear nearly identical dresses?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:47 PM

As usual, people see it (and everything else) through the tinted screen of their own perceptions (e.g., prejudices and establised biases).

That means: Bush supporters saw it as a Bush win. Kerry supporters saw it as a Kerry win. Am I surprised by this? No.

I was a bit surprised at how well Kerry came across in his general presentation. I didn't expect that. Bush seemed a bit tired, but they always do after 4 years of being president. :-) Well, except for Bill Clinton, anyway.

Bush made a little speech at the end that sounded almost biblical. I think he quite possibly believes in everything he is doing. If so, that's quite worrisome.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:43 PM

What I saw tonight was a triumph for Kerry. What others saw was a win by Bush.

What we all saw and what we all think won't matter a bit -- now the media will put their spin on it and tell the American people not only what they saw, but also what to think about it.

Where is Don Firth?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Mickey191
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:38 PM

I think Kerry handled himself very well-his facts & figures on the mark. He drove the point home when he said there were more Americans killed in july then in june. more killed in August then in July, & more in Sep't. then in August.

BushBaby sometimes looked angry, and at times, as if sucking a lemon.

I think it was Leno who said Bush would have a prompter in his ear, so he could get the answers from President Cheney. Anyone spot it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:37 PM

Man. Amos, I am glad you watched the debate or I'd have to ask myself if I was watching the wrong channel.

Tom Brokaw said afterward that the Republicans heard Bush say the things they want him to say, while the Democrats were impressed by John Kerry. I agree. I was trying to picture some of the neo-cons that I know listening to Bush- and I suspect he is all they heard.

On the other hand, John Kerry was intelligent, fluent, his body language was comfortable and focused and on target. Bush- if his face had been flushed he could have passed for being slightly inebriated. He slouched, he smirked, he repeated - and repeated - -and repeated- his key words, he very often did not address a single pont that John Kerry had made.

But yes. I can believe that those who think Bush is on the right track STILL think he is on the right track.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

When he got off his stepstool, Bush looked like a slightly bruised Danny deVito, short, running to fat, smiling but not sure why. Oh, and short, too.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:35 PM

That is no way to talk about deer.... Shame on you!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:25 PM

Don't forget that famous "Deer in the headlights" look of Bush's. It was there again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:20 PM

Bunch of commie Canadians....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM

From the Toronto Star:

...An ABC News poll of 530 people had 47 per cent suggesting Kerry had won the debate, 36 per cent saying Bush was victorious and 17 per cent suggesting a tie. But the same voters surveyed said the debate hadn't changed their minds about who they'd vote for.

Kerry argued during the debate that Bush should have spent more money guarding American seaports, airports and nuclear and chemical plants in the wake of 9/11 instead of ushering in major tax cuts that benefit the richest Americans most.

"Those aren't my values. I believe in protecting Americans first," he said.

Bush, who often leaned on his podium in a casual stance, attacked Kerry for voting against increased funds for Iraq but was met with a sharp retort.

"I made a mistake in the way I talked about the war. The president was wrong in invading Iraq. Which is worse?" Kerry said.

The Massachusetts senator opened the debate by thanking the University of Miami and moderator Jim Lehrer for hosting it and expressing condolences to the people of Florida, who have been devastated by four hurricanes since August.

Bush sometimes smirked and tightened his lips in frustration during some of Kerry's answers to Lehrer, while Kerry smiled and often shook his head while Bush spoke. ...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Bobert--


Well, I hope and I suspect that your somewhat slanderous description of the undecided voters is off the mark.

Bush was certainly acting on your assumption--his favorite mantras "mixed messages" and "don't say 'wrong war, wrong place, wrong time' " pounded in over and over so that if a brain can't register more than 2 phrases in 90 minutes, it'll get those.

But I thought they will also realize that Kerry has self-confidence and a consistent message, and that Bush misled both Kerry and the rest of the electorate in how he started the Iraq war, continues to mislead it and therefore as a CEO should be fired. Kerry had to establish himself as a credible leader, and I would think, to any undecided voter, he did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:07 PM

Guest - I hate to break it to you, but you were tuned to the Food Network. That was Emeril who you saw doing the roasting tonight.   Next time, check your TV Guide!! You missed a well run debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM

As for Bush winning hands down, I'm afraid you must have been watching a different cartoon.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:59 PM

My respect for both men actually increased, just listening to what came out of their mouths. But when I read their faces and tried to feel what was in their souls, Bush shriveled and died. He is very small of soul.

Kerry is a man for the ages. One of Bush's less fortunate tactics will be to make the Presidency so Plebeian and Philistine that Kerry will appear too good for the job. Only an idiot would fall for such a crude jackhammer job, but...it has been known to happen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM

Bush WON - hands down!!!

As terrible a public speaker Mr. Bush is......poor Kerry was caught, trapped, skinned and broiled on an open-spit....before a live audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

Hey, Amos. Intellegence ain't in these days... Now get back to yer all-night NASCAR station.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:49 PM

I think Kerry won by a small margin and was far better at marshaling facts, while Bush relied on his hominy grits to sound folkie. Bush acted cute, Kerry acted intelligent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:38 PM

Well, now that I've seen the debate, I must agree that, given the fact that facts and intellegence had to be checked at the door, that Bush won hands down...

Hey, how about that move that Stroker Ace pulled on Kid Drogin on that last lap??? I mean, screw Iraq and them terrorists. Did ya see that move?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:32 PM

Hey, Chuck. Hope you're feelin' well.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: GUEST,tarheel
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:28 PM

hey brucie....lol   it's 10:25pm,edt,and the debate just ended on Live TV...all networks including PBS!but dont belive it if you hear it from dan rather!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:16 PM

Ah, man, I got stoned and missed the debate? Like, what date is it now, man?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:48 PM

"Oh...ohhhhh....sayyyyyy...cannnn....youuuuuu....seeeeeeeeeee---"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:08 PM

Bobert,

Chill, dude. It ain't over til the f*t lady sings.

A

Subject: BS: Bush Declared Winner of First Debate....
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

Well, fir those of you who were gomnna watch tonight's debate between Kett and Bush, you can take a pass on it. Yup, whatever TV station or newspaper you read, Bush has allready been declared the winner...

Yep, in addition to the dumbed down media the various "undecided" voters who will be asked their reactions have average I.Q.'s in the low to mid 80's (with a tail wind) and therefore the dumber candidate will better relate to their un-decided-ness...

Actually, given Bush's anticipated thrashing of Kerry, many in the media are considering just calling all three debates off entirely so their viwers won't be inconvienced by the pre-empting of their 24/7 Stroker Ace NASCAR programing...

Details at 11............

Bobert