Unwanted Accompaniment

Subject: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 05:33 AM

How do you (politely) ask someone not to accompany you when you are preforming.
Yesterday I was playing in a session and a chap sitting behind me started playing Bodhran in a different rythym to the one I was singing and playing in. My wife leaned across to quitely ask him to desist upon which his wife picked up a very noisy shaker, the type that has circles of beads round the outside, and proceeded to accompany him, again totally out of sync with myself.
I find it difficult to play in such circumstances being distracted by the noise eminating from behind my shoulder. Not noted for my diplomatic prowess I would appreciate some help in solving this, my normal reaction would to ask them kindly to f*** **f, but as the session was run by a friend, whom I didn't want to upset this was not appropriate.

Cheers

Raggy

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 05:47 AM

Hey Raggy. I think I would have felt inclined to stop altogether and "Apologise" to the person..."Sorry" but I find it very difficult to play with an "UNREHEARSED" accompaniment, would you please allow me to do this on my own"?
That way you save face for yourself and it is also not a put-down for them (although they may feel like it is).
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: jonm
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 05:48 AM

If they are relatively sensitive and observant (not a lot of chance with bodhran players!), they will often stop if you "throw" them - extend the pause between verses and come back in late, singing across their added rhythm. Extending a note to emphasise one of the words works, too. If they then carry on, you will undoubtedly get thrown yourself and have to stop - which should drop the message. Come straight back as soon as they stop.

I have seen one singer, having his free-time singing constrained by a guitarist's unwanted accompaniment, lean backwards against the guitar neck and mute the strings. The ripple of appreciation made the guitarist realise his mistake.

If someone realises their mistake in accompanying you, always thank them for their consideration in stopping playing. I generally make it my fault (I can't keep good enough time to stay with an accompaniment like that etc.).

The bloody-minded ones who will not shut up are nearly always the hopeless cases - incompetent and insensitive musicians with a hide like a rhinoceros! If it is obvious to the rest of the session that what they are doing is inappropriate, a stern remark will garner approval from the crowd and they generally won't retaliate.

....and then there are the noodlers, twiddling with their instruments while you are trying to start a song.....

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Ross
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 05:49 AM

Stop performing and say you've lost it

Then have a flap and get hysterical

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 05:52 AM

"my normal reaction would to ask them kindly to f*** **f,"

you must be a bundle of fun at a session, sessions are about inclusion, try it instead of telling people to f*** **f

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:01 AM

Unfortunately too many people think that because a drum or tambourine (etc)does not play different notes, that you don't need to be a musician to play one. This leads to them being given to or bought by those who have no musical ability whatsoever. They think that this allows them to "join in" with any music or song being played.
The fact is that you need to be a real musician to play percussion, because it relies on listening to what others are doing and adjusting what you do accordingly. Often this adjustment should be to put the damn thing away.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:06 AM

It's a no-win situation: you either put up with it and perform worse as a result, or (if you're a sensitive soul like me*) you ask them to stop and feel so bad about it that that puts you off anyway.

*Oh yes, I am. Inside that self-sufficient exterior hides a craven coward.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST, Hamish again
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:08 AM

I remember Steve Knightley of Show of Hands thanking an exhuberant section of their audience for clapping. "Just a suggestion," he says, "but you could try clapping in time with what we're doing."

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:10 AM

Explosives. Works for me every time.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:11 AM

But ARE sessions about inclusion, or are they get togethers where each person has a turn to demonstrate their skills (with the rest of the gathering joining in WHERE APPROPRIATE). Are they set up as simple opportunities for people to all play music together - or are they a step on the performance ladder. Perhaps that needs to be addressed and decided (oh no - not another thread on What are sessions for?)

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:19 AM

When I play at a session I try to do my utmost to be entertaining for the assembled company, if distracted by someone (who in this instance, was asked politely by my wife to desist but continued and was joined by his partner on rattle) it detracts from my rendition, thus limiting my entertainment value for the said company.
As I stated I am not noted for my diplomacy and was asking for constructive imput, I welcome accompaniment that enhances what I am singing, however having a Bodhran and a rattle banging away in a different rythym just behind your help doesn't fall into this category.
Again Guest, if you are going to contribute would you be kind enough to state who you are, you are entitled to your opinion it is as valid as anyone else's and as always a balnce needs to be struck

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: muppett
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:36 AM

I find moving and standing right next to them often works as more often then not I'm singing in a key they can't find or if it's a bodhran I'll raise me voice above them.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:36 AM

Just ask them to stop doing it. Very likely they will do so. You can't expect people to be mind readers. Why be embarrassed to do that? No need to be angry about it or aggressive.

Actually in this case, since the session was "run by a friend" it was the friend's responsibility to sort this out, and if you've a quarrel with anyone, it's with that friend.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:55 AM

McGarth, as I've indicated, my wife asked the Bohran player politely not to continue, this was ignored and he not only carried on but his partner joined in. It isn't practical to stop singing halfway through a song and therefore I put up with it, but felt the people in question needed to be made aware that their contribution was not welcome.
I want to do this in a way that does not cause friction, my reaction of wanting to tell them to **** *** was because they ignored a reasonable request to stop.
It was not possible for the organiser to intervene as this in itself may have caused a "scene" and I have to say I do not agree it was his responsibilty he is not paid to run the session but quitely mantains an orderly procession of performers. We did speak about it later and he said he would have a word but I do not feel he should have to shoulder such burdens

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:55 AM

Usually "The Look" or a simple shake of the head (they should be watching whoever is leading the song anyway) works. If it doesn't work (in my case it's usually the banjo player who doesn't realize that unaccompanied songs are MEANT not to be accompanied), I usually throw things at him -- napkins, beer mats, capos until he stops. But I've known him for almost as long as I've know Curmudgeon and can get away with it. ;-)

Linn

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:56 AM

some people dont know how to listen - to the pace, mood and style of someone else's performance of a song or piece of music. those who harmonise along should be fitting in to the person leading the song, not just going on autopilot and singing their version of the song. the time to lead is when its your song, no other time.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: kendall
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:04 AM

It really is a tough one. A lot depends on the rules of the session. I used to do a lot of bluegrass and country gigs between other acts, and when there was a "house band" I would simply say, "This one is full of minors, so you can take a break if you don't know it." How many bluegrass/country pickers would know The Arbutus?

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: s&r
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:11 AM

Thelate and much lamented Isaac Guillory said of his musical upbringing that everyone was encouraged to join in on anything that made a noise.

If you want to perform an arrangement that you feel is sensitive, or complex, or flash, just ask people not to join in before you start.

Welcoming accompaniment that enhances what you are playing/singing muddies the water - your percussion players probably thought that they were enhancing your performance, and were unaware of their lack of skill.

It seems obvious from the speed of these posts and previous similar ones that this is seen as a problem by many people, but I would echo what Kevin said - they're not mind readers. The time to suggest exclusions oor inclusions is before you perform I think.

Stu

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:25 AM

s&r ......... they were asked poltely not to play, they ignored this, my question is how to get the message across when they ignore a polite request ...... without resorting to a confrontational approach

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Gedpipes
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:35 AM

no one joints in with me :-(

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:41 AM

Stop playing, they can't follow if you don't lead. Ask again politely

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:42 AM

From the Thread List...

Unwanted Accompaniment
Farting in Public

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:46 AM

Aw, Mr Pipes (or may I call you Ged?). The mystery of joining in or not... Many of the poorest performers get strenuously joined in with. Perhaps that's telling you something. Maybe they prefer to hear you clearly...?

...then again I know of a singaround where everyone mysteriously finishes their beer and needs a refill when a certain turn comes around.

(Sorry Ged: good joke, really: but it did raise an all-too serious (and dull) side issue)

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Gedpipes
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:59 AM

Of course you can call me Ged. Thats very kind of you Hamish.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,KJ
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:02 AM

It's a difficult one really because if you're in a session then you ought to be inclusive because that's what sessions are, BUT it's bloody difficult when someone is playing out of tune/rhythm or in a totally different key. Saying **** *** is probably not a good idea, especially if it's the landlord!! I'd probably stop & say " excuse me, but I'm a complete beginner at this & I'm not familiar with playing with asynchronous rhythms, would you mind if I did this one on my own & maybe we can find something you can play along with later". Having listened to a fair bit of your stuff Raggy, I'm suprised anyone would think of joining in with a drum as you tend to do nice, quiet thoughful songs!
As a singer I get a bit bored in music sessions so I've got a drum, but I play it very very very quietly and only with the really fast, roistering tunes that everyone joins in with, it gives my hands something to do & stops me smoking so much!!!
We haven't seen you for ages, hope that's remedied soon.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:08 AM

Having asked politely and been ignored, the next step should have been to ask your friend who was "running" the session to intervene. What is the point of someone running a session, otherwise? If your friend had been sensitive enough he should in fact have already picked up on your distress and done something.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: s&r
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:23 AM

It's always difficult to visualise exactly the situation. I can imagine different versions of this scenario which lays 'blame' at different people's door. Did they know that the lady was your wife: did they know she was speaking on your behalf? Were you new to that session? Were they? All makes a difference. Was anyone else joining in before they did?

Not everyone works to the same set of session rules/conventions. I think it's easier to announce your wishes at the start 'Will you join me on this' or this is one I've been working on; I'd prefer it if you'd listen'

I'm always a bit twitchy about complaints after the event since a friend of ours felt driven out of a session following a quite vituperative thread on Mudcat.

Stu

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:37 AM

It's alway hard to know without knowing the circumstances. Most sessions I go to are at last mostly instrumental and those with singing included have the unwritten rule you don't join in with a song unless invited. In this case, I take the lead from

I welcome accompaniment that enhances what I am singing, however having a Bodhran and a rattle banging away in a different rythym just behind your help doesn't fall into this category.

I think you are in difficult territory if you want to welclome all but then exclude someone you don't like, even if thier playing is bad.

Jon

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:46 AM

I'll just say, actually I prefer singing this song acapulco and that usually helps.

Or stop, and ask the accompansist to stop please (please is always good). Some of the songs I sing are the more traditional sean nos songs (in English) and not meant to be backed by anything really.

E

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: MaineDog
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:11 AM

MAY I POST GARBAGE TO YOUR THREAD?

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:12 AM

This brings to mind a funny moment at the last Getaway. Tinker was singing her B.O.B. (Battery Operated Boyfriend) song much to Big Mick's discomfort. He was noodling around on his guitar. She, in her best imitation of a school teacher, touched his arm and shook her head with an implied TCH TCH. Very funny. He didn't seem to even know what he was doing.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:13 AM

Jon

The pertinant bit in the quote you extract is "banging away in a different rythym" I did not opt to raise this because I didn't like the people invloved, I don't even know them, my not wanting them to join in is because they were not enhancing what I was singing, they were detrimental to it, if they had been enhancing I would not have raised this issue.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:14 AM

I do what Ella does, if I am singing a song I prefer to do unaccompanied, I announce it beforehand. That almost always works. When my quartet is singing at a gathering where there are several other groups, and a herd of electric guitarists and keyboardists, I usually introduce us as doing the old style gospel with just a guitar for accompaniment. If we're singing an unaccompanied song, I make a point of wanting it that way before we sing. That almost always works, too. In black gospel, it's the keyboardists who are the biggest problem. They find it hard to believe that someone couldn't be greatly improved by their playing along (with endless showy runs) twice as loud as anyone else. That's why it's best to cut people off before you get to the pass.

I kid people that there are two switches on keyboards. One says Too Loud, and the other says Too Damn Loud. They usually use the second one.

God is not hard of hearing.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:21 AM

raggytash, bad wording on my part. I did not mean "don't like them" on a personal level. I mean sometimes I may not like an accompanyment even if it is played well.

I stick with my thoghts regarding dealing with it but I will add. If they are insensitive to your, they probably are with others present too. Sometimes the best way of dealing with something like that (assuming as I'm reading it, it is an open format), a frosty reception/ freezing people out works well.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:21 AM

Take a tip from Herself. She's arranged for a friend to borrow my washboard & keep it for months, allegedly for a local show. I heard this weekend they're not even going to play it, maybe use it for a stage prop and we can't hook up with the friend till the New Year to retrieve it.

(Sounds of cheering and sighs of relief all over the country)

RtS
(see also: Shaky Eggs, unwanted accompaniment by)

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:24 AM

Squirt gun. Quick, painless, breaks the tension. Or farts-- no equipment to carry.

~S~

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: MaineDog
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:31 AM

Okay, seeing no positive feedback, I wont.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:36 AM

Can I confess? I was a noodler but have reformed and now by default put my guitar down most of the time when others are playing unless encouraged to join in. Most of it originally was a mixture of enthusiasm, what I was used to in our local pub and not knowing about what is acceptable in different contexts. Perhaps it can depend what you are used to? If you are used to joining in (unchallenged and hopefully appreciated) in your usual local environment it is easy to believe that is acceptable elsewhere? I guess having said that it didn't take long to know to stop.

Having said that I never minded someone indicating if they wanted me to stop (or encouraged me to continue), and have always been happy to oblige. The only person I had any problem with was the one who was overly aggressive in wanting others to stop, while he himself liked to noodle in random keys on his squeezebox when others were playing which smacked of the big 'h' word.

It is helpful if people indicate that they want to do something by themselves though. For example a friend sings 'Band Played Waltzing Matilda' - sometimes he likes accompaniment sometimes he doesn't. That's where it helps if he says so before!

Tempo is the thing I find hard when playing with others. My old granny always told me that as an accompanist you are there to follow the singer/player rather than to impose your particular version on them. I play with a friend sometimes who comes from the opposite end - ie a song should be played 'like this' (ie his way) and he will engineer the tempo to his way either swiftly or gradually - ending with that awful effect of several performers playing the same tune in an echo chamber.

I have now taken to putting my guitar down mid-song when it happens which seems to be making the point. Afterwards I explain that it is a personal thing that I prefer one tempo to a song/tune rather than several and would prefer to do it without the duelling instruments in the interests of the listener. Seems to be having a positive effect currently.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:52 AM

Nick, that's a great, and quotable, post. May I add it to our jam etiquette handout pretty much as-is?

~S~

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 09:54 AM

Hello Nick, how is sunny FarTington?

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 10:14 AM

This is a very good thread question and I find all of the answers interesting. At the age of 167, I now longer have the politness to tolerate this kind of crap. Now days I could give a diddly darn about how "sensitive" some jerk is.

My answer really depends on just how committed I am to the group and the event. Just yesterday we were at a hoot in Seattle with many long time friends. We are all very familiar with each others styles and material, and we usually get along just fine. There's always a nice mix of solos and duets, as well as many group numbers.

However if this happens to me in a less congenial gathering, I usually just stop singing and playing, wander off to find my guitar case, and slip out the back the door. In fact, years of doing this earned me my hoot nickname of "backdoor Bob). ((true)).

So, I guess I'm saying that the older I get, the ruder I get. But then again, perhaps "rudeness" is in the eye of the beholder! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Betsy
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 10:59 AM

I would like to say "Will you shut that f*cking thing up-this song doesn't have a beat-I'm not giving it one, so why that F* ck are you ?".
In reality , I would look at the person , grim-faced with pressed lips and move my head in a manner which say No-No - not required. Most of them who do this sort of thing are well meaning and enthusiastic and I would think new comers , so it's difficult to be hard on them, however, there's a time to be cruel to be kind in educating them that some things simply don't mix as for instance playing that thing with the beads when someone is singing Wild Mountain Thyme.
Watch some awkward B*stard write in and say it would work for them !!!

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:08 AM

It seems you're talking about bad/clueless instrumentalists rather than any instrumentalist.

Since your wife already asked him to stop and it resulted in an aggressive reaction from HIS wife, you've got a choice of a confrontational response, ignoring them and going on anyway, or stopping. You can always ask the session leader for help later on, but in the middle of a song, you have to make the decision, and what you decide depends upon your personality and what you think the results of a particular choice would be.

1. Confrontation will cause a reaction, and probably escalate piss-offedness in somebody who already seems determined to be obtuse.

2. Ignoring them is probably what an exceptionally calm and rational person does. (Whether 'exceptionally calm and rational' is appropriate to your circumstance is something you'll have to decide.) It sounds like the man and his wife are oblivious to the fact they should be embarrassed. Help the process along by varying the tempo a bit. They'll likely not notice, or have a clue about how bad they sound, but everyone else will, and may later give them a bit of feedback.

3. Stopping in the middle of a song may cause even more embarrassment to the non-rhythm players, but again, they may not realise it. It would have about the same effects as #2, but may come off as a tad passive-aggressive. You may end up being less irritated than if you kept singing, but you may be more irritated.

Another option would be to find a competent rhythm player who can manage just a bit more volume than the PITAs, and ask him/her ahead of time to jump in if needed. You can focus on him, and the bodhran and shaky-thing become background noise. (Hopefully)

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Chris Green
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:08 AM

I was in a session at a festival a few years back and this bloke had brought a electro-classical guitar and amplifier in. He was a very good technical player but seemed to have no idea of taste, restraint or listening to what was being played. He just sat there and played incongruous arpeggios and scales at warp speed over every single song and tune set, including an otherwise gorgeous unaccompanied version of "The Unquiet Grave." It got be his turn and he launched into a furious flamenco guitar piece which everyone in the room backed with G, C and D in varying tempos and time signatures. He stopped halfway through, let out a torrent of abuse about how talentless and insensitive we all were and stomped out to hoots of derisive mirth. It was a good session after that!

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:16 AM

Jeez, Bob/Deckman - I can't be sure, but I think at 167 years old, you may be the oldest Mudcatter.

Back doors work, if it looks like the entire night is going to be rotten because of the determinedly clueless.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:33 AM

Well, I do like to play the Wild Mountain Thyme in 4/4 (like the Scottish Tourist Board advert) and the shaky egg works well on that.

But I also play the egg myself and I know the damn thing is a challenge - it can be really hard to moderate to the song.

Likewise I also play a bit of bodhran, and it can be a very major challenge to work with normally unaccompanied singers (and beware of the frowns which may mean it was the wrong song to join - usually I wave the instrument at an unaccompanied singer and wait for a nod before starting) because where thay can pull the rhythm on a voice, it just sounds like you've made a mistake if you do it on the drum.

I usually find keyboardists helpful - but I know some do not.

Mostly I play guitar and mandolin and/or sing (sort of) and quite like people to join in, but it does involve the joiner being able to do it. I'm quite uncomfortable about exclusion, but if you are the principal performer of a song or tune and "accompaniment" is putting you off then the accompanist is in the wrong - unless it was one of those sessions where house rules were that everyone joined in, in shich case it was your choice of material that was wrong.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:46 AM

Jeri ... actually, I know of TWO catters that are older than me! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Mike, Halifax UK
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:47 AM

Life is too short, play through and celabrate your good enough (and big enough) to do that or stop. Easy!

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 11:57 AM

Jeri
I took option #2 and carried on playing on singing despite their interventions. As it is a session I rarely go to and the organiser is a good friend I do not want to rock the boat for him, however by the same token I can do without the "help" of people who can't hold a rythym I have enough difficulty doing that myself without the assistance of anyone else. It would seem from the responses that this is a common occurance and not being the most tolerant of people nor the most diplomatic (man know thyself)I thought I would air the thread to see if someone had a cure-all for such people (yes I know a Gatlin gun would work fine, but they'r so heavy and I've got a bad back)

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:12 PM

The basic question:
What if a polite request is met with rudeness?

My suggestion would be to POLITELY escalate.

1. You stop playing.
2. In a voice loud enough to be heard by the entire crowd (don't shout) you look at them directly and say politely but firmly, "Will you please stop playing your bodhran and your shaker while I am performing."
3. Continue to look at them directly until you get a reply.
4. If they refuse your clear, polite, direct request, you stop and make it clear to the assembled multitudes that you have stopped and will not resume. Be polite.
5. If they agree, in a voice loud enough to be heard by the entire crowd you say, "Thank you" and resume.