Unwanted Accompaniment

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:15 PM

hoot nickname of "backdoor Bob).

Bob,

I am quite sure there was another reason altogether for that nickname.

A

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:22 PM

People have to go through a learning process just as we've all done, and at the same time enjoy what they are doing. The more they play the better they get, if we stop them they wont improve for the benefit of all. I am quite sure we have all played at some time when others wished we hadn't. Encouragement is what people need not been told to shut the f**k up politely or otherwise.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:25 PM

The good with the not so good, Raggedytash...

If these were jazz sessions... they'd be louder.... and everyone would try to add something... but the feeling of awe generally settles 'em down...

It is easy for the newcomers to feel like an unaccompanied song needs something--- ANYTHING!... but of course these folks just don't 'get' the genera. Many people are still imagining some kind of Sinatra-esqe big band accompaniment as preferrable, and normal...

Acapella (acapulco?...) singing is a delicious art... and 'a peoples'' art... But it is only safe to assume that since this world is filled with instrumentalists, and relatively few acapella singers... many people have not been encouraged to appreciate the 'stand alone singer'...

I have stopped and asked politely if they might stop... being sure, of course, to let them know that their playing is superb... and indeed that it is due to my shortcomming rather than theirs...

I have ignored them, stuck to my version, and stretched it a bit here and there to keep 'em guessing... and this works well with the accomplished musicians. Ignoring them is good practice... but for me, it can take the fun out of the singing.

But my point here is this...

It seems to me, that a good session etiquite would be for the 'regulars' to make the call... as these occasions, though they are relatively seldom, are uncomfortably obvious.
ttr

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Mountain Tyme
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:30 PM

This thread subject deeply touches a nerve in me.
The occasion of non aware, non invited "musical" cretins parisitic assistance happens all to often and I consider such to be even beyond being very rude.
When I can see it coming, I first state, "I don't need any help". "Thank you."
Astounding to me is that this gentle approach of mine sometimes fails.
My second attempt to retreive my musical style involves a rapid unexpected retaliatory attack with side cutters! (The same wire cutters I carry to trim the length of newly installed strings.)
The desired result/effect I find is very satisfying to many of the previously uncomfortable dedicated attentive listeners who choose to share their reflections of the event thereafter. :)
I've even had to resort to this means before large audiences and while on broadcast radio.
Nuff sed! MT

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:45 PM

A friend of mine carried on to the end of his tune then exclaimed, Mercy! Who said you can't have six beats to a tune??!!

Got the point across.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:45 PM

WYSIWIG, you are more than welcome if it's of use.

I think one of the things is whether you like accompanying rather than being on an ego trip. It happens to give me great pleasure to play as well as I can behind someone so that it doesn't notice rather than playing my favourite twiddles, rolls and embellishments. (Though deep down I really wanted to be Steve Vai or Joe Satriani :) I think many people DON'T enjoy accompanying they'd rather play. When we had people up visiting for a weekend in Farlington the nicest compliment was being 'allowed' to play along with the singers in the garden in the afternoon.

Ted, I'll PM you separately. My dad died recently so things have taken a back seat. Farlington still going though Ben is missed obviously. Don't yet know about the new landlord/lady so longer term future still a little unsure though due to the efforts of quite a number of us the music stuff has made such a positive contribution to takings that I doubt it will go.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 01:00 PM

Sam: 'learning process', yes. But part of the learning process involves paying attention and absorbing clues. Another part involves what happens when you ignore a plainly and politely stated request.

People that aren't very good (and I've been one) are fine playing along on loud tunes or songs when they aren't likely to mess up other people, or they can play quietly. I don't know if it's possibly for a bodrahn to be that quiet, if it's the only instrument accompanying a singer.

Above all, learning on one's own requires the person to be able to figure out if they're doing something wrong, whether it's playing the wrong rhythm, wrong note or simply playing when they shouldn't. If the person is incapable of figuring that out, other people can help them (if they listen). If they can't gauge their own performance and they don't listen to others, chances are they're never going to learn anything.

Another idea: next time, tape the guy playing along with you and give it to him. What he can't hear when he's playing, he might hear when he's listening. Don't bet on it, though.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 02:03 PM

Ask them if they know the rules of the particular session:
Any unwanted accompanist who doesn`t stop at the first request has to pay a round for everyone in the house - for every request he denies.
That should help.
Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 02:15 PM

Like the sound of that one Ernest, certainly a man after my own heart

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Juan P-B
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 02:17 PM

I once said to someone in a similar situation - "Will you come and play for me when I'M bad??"

It worked !

I would have told him to Foxtrot-Oscar but I'm far too much of a gent!

JP-B

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 02:30 PM

But it is only safe to assume that since this world is filled with instrumentalists, and relatively few acapella singers...

Interesting that - because, in my experience, it tends to be the other way round in Emngland. (Though it'd generally be called "unaccompanied singing")

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 02:37 PM

Amos .... Why ... W H A T E V E R   do you mean???? Bob

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 03:35 PM

If they are so insensitive and obtuse to just keep on crapping on what you're doing after being asked not to, then they aren't too sensitive for a heartfelt f*** **f.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: kendall
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 03:54 PM

If I want help, I ask. Otherwise, I don't.

At one session there was a young woman who played mandolin. It was a bluegrass tune, and when it came time for her "break", this egotistical fiddler practically shoved her out of the way and started sawing away. She was in tears which he didn't see, and I lost it. I yelled "Back off asshole"! Sorta surprised the folks who tend to think I'm a nice guy. God, I hate bullies!

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:18 PM

I'm glad you started this, Raggy. I was playing my drum solo last Sunday, and this bloody guitarist just joined in without a by-your-leave, even singing some jibberish. Just before my wife's rattle break, the guitarist's wife shouts out that we're spoiling the accompaniment! Can you believe it? Well, I can tell you that we sorted that bugger out short order. Some people, eh! The bloke who ran the session didn't make any attempt to stop the invasion, but we just kept playing on through the row that this chap was making, but it was very unsettling to our rhythm.

**bg** Skippy

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:18 PM

Ahhhh Kendall ... You're MY KIND OF PLAYER!!! Bob

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:19 PM

Actually, I'm one of the Mudcatters who has Deckman beat on age. I'm 173, aiming for 300 at minimum. Ask me again in 2131. I may want to reenlist.

Interesting thread with perennial subject. I don't have any overall solutions to this problem, but I do have a fairly large book of horror stories.

Seattle's infamous Pamir House was a fun place to sing because John Timmons, the owner, hired a lot of singers, and on weekends especially, there would often be three or more singers occupying the stage area, usually Mike Atwood, Jerry Murry, and myself, frequently joined by one or more of Jim Wilhelm, Alice Stuart, Judy Flennikan, Mike Neun (who wrote The Joan Baez School of Nonviolence Fight Song), Sue Hall and/or others. Not all at the same time, but various combinations thereof. Other than each person's own individual practice, nothing much was ever rehearsed, but we got to know each other pretty well, which included knowing when to play and/or sing along with whoever happened to be featured at the moment—and when not to. Who sang what, and when, was spontaneous and unrehearsed, as were the banter, jokes, and bad puns that flew back and forth between songs. We were having a helluva lot of fun (and getting paid for it!), and apparently the audiences enjoyed it too, because the place did a good business every night and was jam-packed on weekends.

This was during the infamous "Age of the Bongos." Anyone with a total lack of musical talent and taste could walk into a music store somewhere and by a set of these abominations without having to get a license first. Because of the loose nature of the format at Pamir House, these benighted creatures often wandered in, carrying their weapons, and endeavored to participate. Mr. Timmons was alert to this sort of thing and would put a quiet but firm word in their ear, but all too often, he was busy in the kitchen. They seemed to be oblivious to the dirty looks of both audience and singers. But the one thing that the bunch of us did rehearsed together proved quite effective. Someone would give The Look and The Nod, then simultaneously we'd stopped singing and playing, and stare fixedly at the bongoist. After a few seconds of appalling silence, the bongoist would stop in mid-paradiddle, shrink down to about three inches in height, and disappear under a nearby table.

I do a particular arrangement of Greensleeves (four verses plus choruses, with a carefully worked out lute-style guitar arrangement). It is not enhanced by bongo backup.

At songfests, I'm used to having people play along with me (in fact, I often play along with other people), and, generally, it's fun and it all sounds pretty good. But recently, I've taken to doing a number of unaccompanied ballads. I can't really understand why, when I set my guitar aside in preparation for singing one of these ballads, there are often one or to folks who don't get the clue and try to accompany me. This is especially difficult to handle when the person doing it is a nice guy and a good guitarist. If you have a sidekick who knows what's what, it helps. I've seen Bob the Deckman simply reach over and place his hand on someone's guitar strings, stopping the sound, as he gives them an eloquent look. Gently done, and it works without engendering hard feelings. Bless his heart.

Although super ted's suggestion of "Explosives" has merit, I like Ella's and Jerry Rasmussen's method: announce your intention beforehand. If you want to sing unaccompanied or if you have your own instrumental arrangement you'd like people to hear, say so. Also, if you'd like people to accompany you, invite them to.

Be sensitive to what other people are doing so you don't goof, and when it's your turn, take control.

Of course, sometimes, when there are four guitars of various kinds, a banjo, a mandolin, a penny whistle, two fiddles, a hurdy-gurdy, spoons, a bodhran, a conga drum, a dumbek, and two djemebes all going at the same time, that can be quite an exhilarating moment!

Don Firth

P. S.: Click on dumbek, scroll down, and check out "Effects of playing a dumbek" and "Frequently asked questions." Much of this can apply to various instruments, people, and situations.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Blowzabella
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:32 PM

I think I would just stop and say 'I'm sorry but I need to set my own rhythm to this and, my fault, I know, but I can't keep to the one you are setting - do you mind if I begin again on my own...'

If they contiued after that, then the gloves would come off....and I'd tell them to play it on their own.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Bassic
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 05:04 PM

Its a dilemma Raggy, sorry I arived too late to witness the event yesterday. Anyway, I have given it some thought and this is what I think.......

Yes, anounce up front that you want accompaniment or not..........if after that you are then faced with something that becomes seriously off putting, especially if a quiet and subtle request has been ignored, then stop..........be honest..........say you are finding it really difficult to play/sing with the offending player/instrument and say you would like to continue without it please. And do all that with a smile of genuine warmth........oh.........and also dont forget................

to make sure you dont knock over the pint belonging to the big bloke sat in front of you with your guitar neck, which verse you are singing, how to play the upcomming guitar bit that you always get wrong, what the next word is, what the next line actually means, where you are supposed to take your next breath, that you have to "pull" all the notes you are playing on the D string cos its suddenly gone a touch flat, that you make enough space for the big guy in front of you to get to the toilet cos its urgent judging by the look on his face! that the guy who actually wrote the song you are singing has just walked into the pub............oh sod it.........just tell the drummer to F*** ***!!! ;-)

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:27 PM

It just seems a bit sad underlying everything to think that all Raggytash went to do was perform something for himself and others to enjoy - not to have to come equipped for major conflict.

Being new to all this sort of stuff it's hard enough to stand up and perform without the extra wieght of having been on an assertive training course for dealing with the rest of the world.

Whatever is the best way to deal with it and whether you - stop; keep going; deck the wife first - then the husband (sorry I'm old fashioned and old habits die hard, ladies first); ignore it; be smart; be clever; whatever - that performance is still spoilt for some or all and you can never reclaim that moment however well you salvage the situation.

The sad thing is it will happen lots of times in this next week - and any of us here could be the hero or villain with the best or worst of intentions by either what we do or what we don't.

Personally I am taking my spare guitar on Wednesday just to smack the first trangressor round the head. I just hope it's not me...

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:27 PM

Cripes! I did my post just above by dictating it with a voice recognition program (Dragon NaturallySpeaking), which is a kick--but it sure pays to proof-read. It can't distinguish between "by" and "buy" or "to" and "two." I know better. But the Dragon doesn't seem to.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:29 PM

There was a variant of this in the Eight Bells in Tenterden Fest on Friday.

True, there was a drunk squaddie covered in tattoos who was intent on very loud conversation (in the midle of the players' circle) and even jogging guitarists' arms as they tried to play (their turn, not joining in with others), so we were all quite appreciative when a Steward loudly interrupted between two songs and asked people to listen not toalk, or if intent on talking, to use the other bar.

***k me she then walked to the bar (the singer's side) and proceeded to have a very loud conversation indeed, in the immediate vicinity of a rather loud-voiced unaccompanied singer who was also conversing (but has been known to get tetchy if himself talked over). This rose to a bit of a crescendo in the middle of a friend's superb (and I mean that) rendition of "Coal Town Road". I was (by agreement) accompanying his guitar playing and singing, on mandolin. First I stood and took one pace towards the offenders and stared with basilisk intensity - to no avail. At the end of the verse said friend interrupted the bridge, stared right, yelled "shut it" with great intensity, and then returned to the song (as I frantically tried to recover the rhythm of what I was playing along to him).

It was partly successful. But the squaddie continued although the guitarist he was upsetting most left.

Later in the evening the booked host of the session/singaround, an imposing figure of a man, sang one verse of a song, stopped, and started the "if it's so interesting why don't you tell the rest of us about it" routine. This produced embarrassment in the said squaddie and some improvement.

But to come back to the original question, surely the root of the determination lies in the nature of the session. If it was a participative session (whether song or tune) then Raggytash by seeking to exclude participation (either by pre-announcement, or by spontaneous combustion) is at fault - but if it was a "take turns" session, then the intervener was at fault in joining in if not invited.

Problems can arise if the host has said that it's participative, but it is being treated like a rotating concert.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:33 PM

One solution that works is to end the verse, point to the miscreant, and yell "Take it!" Usually shuts people up.

Or sing in G flat.

BUT, when in hell did sessions and singarounds and hoots become performance venues?On of the nicest (and musically best) groups I've encountered has a bunch of pretty damn good musicians helping to ad-lib accompaniments to just about anything. THAT's what jamming was all about. Remember?

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM

Bongo-drummers. Now they can be difficult to cope with. As can those blokes with drums shaped like spittoons. (It always is blokes too.)

When it's a question of a solo performer doing a song, shutting up an unwanted accompaniment isn't that hard. Relatively few people will continue when given a direct, unambiguous and polite request/demand that they stop playing.(For example "Sorry - you're making me forget the words, could you stop playing that thing till I've finished.") Hints or looks aren't enough.

When it's an open session with lots of people playing, it's harder to deal with someone who is messing it up by the way they are playing - you haven't really got the authority to say "please stop" in that setting, and there may even be other people who are liking it. The only thing to do it to stop playing, and maybe all the people who don't like it will stop playing. Though of course there are some people thick-skinned enough to think that the others are stopping in order to listen to this fantastic bongo solo...

Look at it as a chance to get a drink in.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 06:51 PM

You perhaps have the luxury of playing with better musicians, and the ability to perform and keep an audience interested. Singarounds for me - for right or wrong - are in my local surroundings my and my friends performance venues.

If the 'session' that Raggytash went to is the one in Beverley I think it might be then it isn't a jam session of great musicians supporting and enhancing each others performances. In my very limited experience it strikes me that amateur musicians spend a certain amount of time preparing their one/two/three performance pieces for the week/month/whatever, dutifully and patiently wait for an hour to play, and do it with all the pain and pleasure involved. It seems justifiable to feel a touch pissed if some crass twat with a noisier voice/drum/instrument makes a mockery of that effort.

Lord give me a thicker skin, lots more talent and friends with tact and taste.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: synbyn
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:14 PM

Depends where you are & who's there: at our local session there are several guitarists who've recently taken up the instrument. If we insisted upon them ducking out they'd lose that experience which I guess most of us gained by, quietly underplaying until we were more confident of finding lines and harmonies. There is one excellent singer/guitarist, who plays quiet songs, and most of us drop out to listen- only the most skilful puts in his threepenceworth. What we'd do with a rampant bongo-player I don't know, but often the quiet songs grab the onlookers who would try to talk above the louder or more familiar choruses. I'm keeping quiet- sooner or later I've got to debut a banjo...how do I do that subtly?
As to squaddies, tattooed etc, not much can be done because the confrontation is what they want. Who'd be a steward- but I agree with Richard that they too have to be seen to be listening. Mobile phone users- saw Keith Kendrick start up a shanty in a session & within 3 choruses Harassed Mobile Man was joining in. Quality won!

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From:
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:19 PM

Two threads on similar topic:

Musical Etiquette
Annoying Bodhran: What To Do?

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:20 PM

I still well remember the first evening I met, and heard, the crew from the Vancouver Folk Song Society for the first time. This was in the early 70's at a hoot in the "U" district of seattle. I'd heard of them, but had never encountered them, especially John Bartlett and Ricca (sp?). As I sat down and looked around, I saw a lot of new faces, but that was not too unsual. A few songs happened, then I started one.

I couldn't believe what happened. I made a choice of a song that obviously EVERYONE knew. My GAWD what a sound. 17 part harmony, FULL VOLUME and they knew EVERY VERSE and verses I didn't know. The walls of the house fairly vibrated.

I was stunned. I kept looking behind me to see if I could see that giant sized speakers or maybe the chorale conductor. It was weird and very intimidating.

After I krept out to the garage, using my best "back door Bob" stealth, the host John explained who they were. I came to love them and their sound, but it not a simple adjustment.

Whew!! What memories.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: kendall
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:25 PM

I've performed alone for so many years that it is very hard for me to do anything with others who join in. Funny thing is, the better they are, the more they screw me up! I get to listening to them and forget what I'M doing.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Deckman
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 07:27 PM

Geeze Kendall!! I sure hope you're ONLY talking about your music here!! Bob

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 08:52 PM

It's a really difficult problem. If you are a singer in a situation like this one you may only get to perform one song. It's not fair that you can't sing it the way you want. I've been there. I've tried various things - most work some of the time, but it breaks the mood. Comic remarks just seem to lead them on - "if you don't stop picking that thing it'll never heal!" - to the guitar noodler, might get a big laugh but it rarely helps unless comedy is your aim.

Just one thought that shouldn't be necessary. I learned from a waitress that if you are a woman it's best to address all your remarks to the other woman of a pair - even if it's not the most logical thing to do. The thought being that a comment from a woman to another woman's man might raise the hackles. Be seen as a threat or worse. Your wife shouldn't have to be a psychologist though, Raggy, her method was a reasonable one. Joy

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:17 AM

I haven't found the instrumentalists to be a problem, but I am blessed that I am among very good players often as not. But the one that gets me is when, as a singer, I start a song and folks don't listen for my arrangement before they start to join in. Most of the time I try to make a song mine. The phrasing is usually different, and I emphasize the story a certain way. Often I get among singers that want to sing it their way, as opposed to how I am singing it. Makes me crazy.

Mick

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 03:36 AM

Good thread.

Not being a solo performer, I can only go by my own reactions on reading the different posts.

It does seem that stating one's preference BEFORE beginning really should go the longest way in solving your problem.

If people still insist on joining along, and you aren't pleased, then I'm with Deckman Bob. Stop playing.

I do think there are lessons that need to be learned, and it sounds like this is an important one.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 03:42 AM

If you want to play unaccompanied, and in total silence, pop along to ged's pipe session at The Woolpack in beverley tonight. He's not called Billy no mates for nothing!

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 03:53 AM

I disagree, Ellenpoly.

The most important lesson to learn at any session or singaround is its own "rules" and ways which can vary considerably. It's only when you know and understand them can you consider taking actions like stating preferences.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 03:55 AM

At Oddfellows on Sunday Super Ted wanted to play with Shindigg, they couldn't cope with going down the "true path" so turned up the volume, Super Ted had an early night - nuff said.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:07 AM

So Jon, are there really places that don't allow the performer any choice in whether they can play by themselves or not?

I'm very interested in this, as I'd find it hard to believe that one is always at the mercy of others in some performing circumstances.

Can you explain where this would be the case?

..xx..e

(Not at all meant to be argumentative, I really don't know how these all work, except from what I've read here.)

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:25 AM

Ellen Polly, I think what we come onto in my terminology is a difference between a singaround/song circle and a session.

In the former, people generaly would take it in turns and probably find it easy to set their own rules for thier performance.

Sessions are in my expericence more commonly instrumental affairs but singing versions do exist. In such a circumstance one could expect a high percentage of chorus songs and an understanding that anyone could join in at any time.

There are of course no hard and fast rules. An example of an instrumental session I used to go to that had the occasional song which was usualy unaccompanied was one in Bangor. The understanding there was that when a singer started, the musicains kept quiet and listened. With a tune of course, the understanding was once a tune was started eveverone was free to join in.

Some sessions may have a leader, others may be complete free for alls, some may have other rules, eg. the Norwich one I attend most is strictly no singing, etc.

The dynamics of these things can be quite complicated. I think as you attend more different ones, you become better at picking up how a particular event works.

Hope that helps a bit.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Ellenpoly
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:18 AM

"The understanding there"

Seems to be a phrase you use a lot Jon. So what seems clear that there are no hard and fast rules that apply to every kind of situation.

But if I'm not correct, and I guess raggedytash needs to chime in here, it certainly seemed like the understanding must have been open to the interpretation of his having the right to decide whether or not to have people join in.

But even if it were the case, the question still is one of what to do if the person, or persons who DO join in, throw off the original singer...and if so, what are then the options.

Anyway, as I said, I'm really just here to learn, so thanks for your input.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:38 AM

Yep Ellenpoly you've got that about right but you also need to know that when you come into a new event, you are excpected to know or find the understandings (or rules) for a particular event. The onus is on you, not the regulars to do that.

As you say, it does need raggytash to chime in but it remains unclear to me the nature of the event he was attending. I notice I'm not the only one unclear as only a few posts ago, Richard Bridge said:

But to come back to the original question, surely the root of the determination lies in the nature of the session. If it was a participative session (whether song or tune) then Raggytash by seeking to exclude participation (either by pre-announcement, or by spontaneous combustion) is at fault - but if it was a "take turns" session, then the intervener was at fault in joining in if not invited.

Another thing to bear in mind is that a person used to one event or format can easily and wrongly assume that another is the same. I'm not saying that is the case here but without that sort of knowledge, I think it rather foolish to give out the "tell the offender to shut up" type of advice.

Sometimes how to deal with it is simply "Deal with it"!

Jon

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:46 AM

Cor ......... Whats a little hornets nest I've stirred up here, right boys and girls who were there. I deliberately excluded the time and place of the venue, so please don't put anything to that effect, I have no wish for this to be detrimental to anyone one person or session.

The session in question was a take-your-turn session but as always with such sessions if someone played a tune, e.g on accordian, several others joined in on diverse musical instruments.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: s&r
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:49 AM

Always seems sad that in all these cases, all participants started out with a common interest in music and a wish to play it in the company of others. If a tune is spoiled, it's regrettable. If a session is spoiled there's a total lack of communication somewhere (for communication try talking with people instead of frowning).

If there are no rules/conventions, anything goes and you take your chance; if there are established customs, explain them to the newcomer.

stu

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: s&r
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 05:51 AM

Is it Ted who likes to score a hundred? it's getting close.

Stu

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:34 AM

I've been singing unaccompanied in Students Union/Rugby Club style situations for forty years, but only 5 years or so in folky places.

I'm used to the etiquette being "everybody joins in on all the bits they think they know", and I don't have a problem with that - better them singing/playing badly than talking loudly and ignoring you.

Of course it helps if they're using the same words and tune as you, but it isn't absolutely necessary. They are quite as entitled to regard it as "their" song as I am. Just because I started it does not give me the right to impose my version against the common will.

Don't sweat the small stuff: it's not the end of the world. There will be other opportunities to give my sensitive and artistic rendition of the song they just murdered, but for now it's a great feeling to see so many people enjoying themselves by participating in music making rather than being cowed into silence by a member of the priesthood.

In my book "Shut up and listen" and folk belong in separate universes. YMMV.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,I'd rather listen
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:00 AM

Ooh - not sure I can entirely agree with you there snuffy - that 'shut up and listen' and 'folk' belong in different universes...

Cast your mind back to the days when a bard would sit in the hall and sing to a rapt audience - singing people's lineage, of battles, of heroes - because they were an oral society and the carrier of the stories was held in a sort of wonder - isn't that an enormous part of what the 'folk' movemnent draws its heritage from? If, in the flickering firelight, the drama and tension created in the telling of Beowulf was ruined by someone deciding to 'join in by tapping annoyingly on the table or blowing bubbles in their drinking horn', I'm sure someone would have had something to say - even if the tapper or bubble blower thought they were contributing positively to the atmosphere!

And when a new person would arrive in a village with songs from where they came from and the villagers would listen because they were new stories and (probably) because they were glad of a new voice singing

Personally, I don't think that it should necessarily be the case that 'folk' means all join in together. If I was having a conversation, lets say, I was telling a story or a joke, with someone in a pub, I would take it amiss if someone else just butted in or talked over me.

Why people have to join in with every darned tune is beyond me - surely knowing when and how to listen is as great a skill - and a good opportunity to learn stuff too

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:04 AM

Snuffy, I think you miss the point, for any musician playing an instrument in a certain rythym to have someone else playing in a different rythym is distracting to say the least. For that person to continue when asked politely to desist is nothing short of rude and for their partner to then add to the cacophony is adding insult to injury.
Sad to say it is unlikely I will visit this venue again as I do not wish to create problems for a friend and in this instance the best way to do that is to avoid the place as it was only the second time I had been there, it is some 70 miles from base

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Mr Bodhran & Mrs Rattle
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:11 AM

Raggytash
Very nice of you to discuss this with the world prior to any proper attempt at discussion with myself.

"Not noted for my diplomatic prowess" your words say it all i think.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:21 AM

Whether you be trying to stir or the real Mr Bodhran & Mrs Rattle you can't throw anything in raggytash's direction - he's never come close to saying where this incident took place. If others have been indiscreet, that's hardly his fault - if you are THEY and you recognise yourselves, then hopefully you will learn something and it will help to lessen incidents like this. At the end of the day, it's not a BIG thing - all raggytash did was ask for some advice for the future. Hopefully both raggytash and Mr Bodhran & Mrs Rattle will have gained something from this thread

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:28 AM

In my original thread there were no names, no pack drill, I did not mention a venue, nor have I done in other contributions to this thread. In fact I have made efforts to ensure that individuals or venue were not named in other contributions. I was seeking a way in which to diffuse a situation were an individual (be it me, you or anyone else) was detracting from the rendition of another without resorting to being offensive.
I do not feel any need to make an apology for raising this issue as it would appear to be a concern that is shared by many people
I can only hope that my original request for a way in which to avoid confrontation can be found.

Subject: RE: Unwanted Accompaniment
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:28 AM

Bugger it 100