Obit: Ken Bigely

Subject: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 04:56 AM

I feel really sorry for his family in Liverpool, this was a man that was captured in Iraq, and then for months, his family and friends tried to save his life, well Tony Blair and his cronies didn't do very much, yes they phoned his family but they never nagotied with the terrorists. Well I'm just hope that all those people out there that said that we shouldn't negaotise with terrorists are happy, that an innocent man has died.
what's it like to have his blood on you hands?

Please excuse the spelling, but that's the way I feel today. That the British Government could have saved his life but they didn't.

Thank God I didn't vote for them.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: C-flat
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:11 AM

"That the British Government could have saved his life but they didn't.

I honestly think that Ken Bigleys' fate was sealed on the day he was kidnapped. The kidnappers have repeatedly asked for the release of women prisoners even though they knew that there are no women prisoners in British custody in Iraq.
The only way the British government could have saved Ken Bigleys' life would have been to NOT get involved in the attack on Iraq and to stay out of middle-eastern politics.
Every one of these stories of kidnap and murder is brutal and barbaric, making extremely difficult reading, never mind the video footage, but the Bigley case seems to have been more personal because of the weeks he was kept, giving false hope of return, and the fact that he made several recordings, appealing to Tony Blair for intervention.
The papers all carry the grim story this morning.

C-flat.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:14 AM

I wish I believed in hell, because the idea of the stone-age bastards who sawed his head off frying there really appeals. But the government acted correctly - had they refused to deal from simply being stiff-necked I would hate them, but they were right to point out that if they had, more people would be in more danger of being taken.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Guardian
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:17 AM

Graphic accounts of beatings, mock executions and the imprisonment and killings of men and boys at a checkpoint in Afghanistan were described to a jury at the Old Bailey yesterday by the attorney general as he opened the first torture prosecution of its kind in the world.

In the dock of court nine an Afghan men from Streatham, south London, sat taking notes and sipping water. Wearing a jumper and tracksuit bottoms, Faryadi Sarwar Zardad, 42.

Lord Goldsmith gave an account from a witness of a "human dog" kept in a hole by Mr Zardad: "The human dog was biting people and eating testicles under the orders of soldiers at the checkpoint."

There are some crimes which are so heinous, such an affront to justice, that they can be tried in any country," the attorney general said.

Videos were discovered in Mr Zardad's Streatham flat when he was arrested. One woman went to Mr Zardad's checkpoint to see her imprisoned son, the jury was told. "He was in a room with bars like a prison. He was very weak, had blood on his face." The woman asked for his release and was told to pay for it with a large sum of money. On her return with the cash, one of the commanders told her her son was dead.

"She has never found his body,"

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:28 AM

Nobody other than the terrorsits could have saved his life. That obviously was not their intention.

You cannot negotiate with terrorists, only go through the motions as their minds are already made up. They ask for something they cannot have as an excuse to carry out their subsequent actions. It's an oft repeated pattern...

I'm sorry, Tam, but as much as I disapprove of the British Government, we have to be realistic and agree that there was nothing they could do. The blood is on the hands of the terrorists...

We are all sickened by the news, but please put the blame where it really belongs...

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:35 AM

Eating testicles?

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 05:49 AM

Tam, I'm sure most of us feel both outrage and sadness when an event like this happens. I don't see what the government could have done though. I do hold this government responsible for the shedding of a lot of innocent blood and even helping create the situation that led to Ken Bigely's kidkapping. I don't however believe it is possible to give in to the outrageous demands of terrorists as I think in doing so, one would open the floodgates for more kidknappings and demands.

I doubt they read here but my deepest sympathies go out to the family of Ken Bigley.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:20 AM

I'll second most of those emotions, especially the bit about believing in Hell.

The Bigley family are admirable.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:24 AM

I suppose you're right, however I still believe that the Government could of done at lot more, This Government is resonible because if it didn't go to War with Iraq Ken Bigley would still of been alive. But that's my opinion.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Guest Baillie
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:24 AM

...I wonder how Billy Connolly feels now about his ill timed and ill thought out jests?

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:25 AM

Why have we got to do everything America tell us?
This is my last post on this subject, I'll read the other posts, and if they make me angry I'll just keep my views to myself

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 06:27 AM

We as a country could of thold the yanks NO
The end

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: s6k
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:11 AM

very weird being that connoly made those comments 1 or 2 days before... wonder what he has to say about it? maybe he should just keep quiet

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:20 AM

And another way to avoid it again is for foreign nationals to seek employment elsewhere. No contract is worth the risk. The country wasn't stablized enough to truly believe there was no chance of a kidnapping. However good his intentions were to help rebuild it. The armed forces take those risks by enlisting. Civilians have choices. Some good and some bad.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 07:24 AM

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:33 AM

I fear we will always be at risk from this sort of tragedy for as long as British foreign policy is effectively decided in The White House. The fact is, that no British Prime Minister since the Second World War has been in a position to operate an autonomous foreign policy. The penalty for withdrawing from allowing our troops from being used as an arm of the Americans would undoubtedly be severe. However, the rest of Europe has been able to do it. I believe it is time for all politicians to be more candid with the electorate and open up an honest debate about the advantages and costs of operating our own foreign policy. I don't believe Tony Blair is stupid enough to believe there was any real merit in getting involved in this Iraq fiasco. The fact is, I believe any other British PM would have been in the same position. This isn't the sort of "sovereignty" which I think is worth hanging on to. If we at least learn that much from this murder, we may be on the way to avoiding a repetition.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:37 AM

Sorry about this but those who don't believe that we should talk to terrorist, I wonder if they would still believe that if it was their Son/Brother/Sister?daughter in other words a member of their family. I just wonder if they would just sit on their backsides and do nothing.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:44 AM

No Tam, I'm sure you are right there and I have thought through that one as well as the possibility that I was the hostage... I'd be doing everything in my power including pleading with the government. I would however very reluctantly be prepared to accept the impossibility of a situation. I wish I had a nicer or easier answer but try as I might, I can't come up with one.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:45 AM

If it were one of mine, I hope I would behave as admirably as Ken's family ... but I very much doubt it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:54 AM

My British friends need to keep focused on the problem. The US is not responsible for your foreign policy. We have enough to deal with, having this dangerous man as President. In a democratic Republic such as ours, sometimes we have GWBush, sometimes WJClinton. But your foreign policy is your own. I ache for the family of this good man, as I ache for the families of all that suffer this fate. I am quite sure that those that think there will be virgins waiting for them for committing these acts, are in for a very big surprise.

Please, please, please, keep the heat on your politicians over this. We are doing our best here.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:03 AM

I'm with you on this one Mick. We have to accept responsibilty for our own actions and "Mr Bush/America made us do it" is not an excuse that washes with me.

For my part, I have vowed I will never vote labour as long as Tony Blair has any position in office. I was pretty much on the fringes of that anyway before Iraq because of what I consider the selling out of labour values but I suppose you could call this the straw that broke the camels back - although it was a mighty heavy straw - more like a ton of lead on top!

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,BiGtOm
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:09 AM

We have, in the story of Ken Bigely a stark but true view of the world in which we live. Human life, in the eyes of certain people and societies is but a mere pawn in an international game of chess, The Untimely death of a genuine human, working for the benifit of others lays out the rules in black and white, I do feel the Britsh Government let the Bigely family down, but to a certain extent they were playing a game of wich there could only be one outcome. So we should perhaps, forget about politics and all the hype surrounding this occourence, and reflect in the loss of a man, a husband, and in my eyes the very bluerpint of what a human being should be. If one purpose to his brutal killing, it proves that terrorists ARE NOT HUMAN BEINGS, and therfore should not be treated like them.

My thoughts today are with the Bigely family, who have endured so much, for no return, but may they find srength in knowing that the tears and hearts of the world are with them in their hour of need
May he find the peace in heaven he was deprived of in his last weeks on earth

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:13 AM

We could get into the semantics here, Big Mick. In my view (as no doubt, in yours too), the US should not be responsible for our foreign policy. In a moral sense, it certainly is not. Unfortunately, the evidence of my eyes has been that barely a major decision is made without the rubber stamp of whichever President is in office at the time. The only exception I can recall, was Harold Wilson's refusal to enter the Viet Nam War. I don't spend my days and nights studying political and financial columns, so I am not aware of the exact details of US investment in our country or UK investment in yours. I know that both figures are substantial though. I suspect that has something to do with it.
I did not intend my comment to sound anti American. I think you can be very pro American while retaining a very low regard for your current President!

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:16 AM

As these terrorists had absolutely nothing to gain from this spectacle, one can only assume they do it because they like it.


eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:22 AM

Yes, alanabit, I understand. I am certainly an example of a person who dearly loves the country of his birth, while being very concerned about the direction of its foreign policy. I guess the reason that I dislike the "blame the US" attitude so much is that it allows my friends in other countries to avoid taking the steps that truly can affect our foreign policy. Were Blair to be put out of office, as a result of his following GWB's lead, that would send a very large signal to the American electorate.

Mick

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:34 AM

If Blair is to be put out, is he to be replaced by someone who has agreed to withdraw the UK support of this war? No one springs to mind in that respect.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Clara
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 02:42 PM

Robin Cooke for PM!

Al-zaqawi's reason for killing Ken was because the British had refused to release women held by the Americans. There's no logic in that statement. To me, he discredited his so called political cause by killing Ken rather than releasing him, and revealed himself as what he really is... A murderor, plain and simple who USES religion as a excuse for what he wants to do anyway. I think he would have killed Ken even if those women had been released.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM

This act along with all the other murders committed by these people just sickens me.

Even the group who went out to Iraq from Liverpool though it contained Muslims pleading for Ken Bigely's release were ignored. These people are obviously beyond the reach of good moderate Muslim clerics and believers.

Even if the Muslim leaders did condemn these acts or issue a fatwa then I doubt it would change these murderers ways.

My heart goes out to the Bigely family and the other families that have had to endure these foul and horrendous acts.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 04:36 AM

Tam the Bam is 100% right. The ultimate cause [note--I didn't say "fault"]lies in the fact of the assault upon Iraq, and the subsequent occupation. TB. pranced around Africa trying to polish up the self-constructed mirage of Tony-theWorld-statesman but finding time to spout pious platitudes about his sympathies with the Bigley family, and of how Iraq had to be dealt with as it is a hotbed of terrorists. Damn' right it is---even if it wasn't before Tony and Shrub threw the young-uns in to slaughter and be slaughtered. Ken Bigley's murder was a horrible event, and sadness, disgust and media comment is understandable. Why was there so much less concern however,when, during the same twenty-four hours, a wedding party--men, women and children--had their lives snuffed out by "precision" bombing "aimed at terrorists"?

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 05:20 AM

Tony Blair is a twat, but right about not negociating with terrorists, Ken Bigleys fate was sealed. The theory of terrorism is to spread terror.

eric

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 05:28 AM

So If it was a member of your family then you would just sit back and do nothing just like Westminster.
I mean if it was a memeber of my family I would do anything in my power to free them and if that means talking to the terrorsts then so be it.
I mean that's what the French Governement did, and their hostages were set free.
But if that's what you lot believe in then that's up to you.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 06:03 AM

Tam, I believe you can talk to terrorists and thought our government tried to do that. What I don't believe you can do is give in to thier demands or negotiate some form of settlement. It is harsh I know and I don't pretend to like it (and I don't think you will find one person in this thread who does like it) but even assuming the demands could be met,the danger of giving in to the bastards is that it's likely to give encouragement to other swine to use the same tactics - the end result being more Ken Bigleys. Also there is not even a guarantee that even if demands were met, the hostage would be freed.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 06:16 AM

so we just give in is that, we do anything we just let the terrorists do whatever they want and sod the rest, well I beleive in trying everything once and if that means talking to them then I would try that, Even though they might kill that person, at the end of the day at least I could say I tried to save them.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 06:21 AM

I wish that I never started this thread, because it seems that most people are against me, so I wish they would just stop posting to this thread. And I'm sorry if I have upset some folks, as I say they are entiled to their opinions, I just don't agree with them that's all.
GOODBYE

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 06:27 AM

Tam, I can only speak for myself but I do wish to assure you that I am in no way against you or upset by your comments. I actually appreciate your caring attitude. I just happen to disagree that such an approach can work with murderous bastard terrorists. I'd love to be proved wrong but sincerely believe I am right on this.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Bernard
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 03:33 PM

Tam, I'm not against you either - I echo Jon's sentiments. It's the terrorists I'm against.

Sadly, terrorists will do what they like in spite of anything any sane, rational person does to try to reason with them. They are unreasonable people...

I'm sure that Ken Bigely's 'escape' was a setup...

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 05:39 PM

"I think you can be very pro American while retaining a very low regard for your current President! " alanabit

Yes. The same as a great many Americans feel.

We all agonized over the fate of Mr. Bigley. Tears were shed on this side of the world, too. It is also true that when a demand pays off, all one is doing is increasing the demand. There is no good answer. If one saves 10 lives but causes the loss of 100 others, in what way has one gained?

There have been many tragedies recently. Let's not forgot the killing of the two American men who were kidnapped with Mr. Bigley.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:45 AM

One of the interesting - and perhaps significant - aspects of this sorry affair is the silence of the Muslim world (excluding the British muslim clerics mentioned earlier). Where is the condemnation of these specific groups, and acts of terrorism, by influential muslims and governments? Nowhere.

So strategically the issue is about public support. Terrorists of whatever stripe, IMHO, need the support of "their" publics - the nationalist community for the IRA, the Loyalist community for the UDF etc, and in this case the support of Muslim opinion worldwide.

If we are to see any end of these kidnappings we need to hear Muslim clerics stating categorically that these acts are un-Islamic and not condoned by the Koran; we need to see suicide bombing clearly denounced as against the teachings of Islam - because this is given by the perpetrators as their justification.
If Muslims - and Islamic governments - will not do this, there will never be an end to the stream of fundamentalists (many of them now children, and easily swayed by what their elders in the faith tell them) willing to commit these crimes because they believe it to be the Will of Allah.
It would also help to defuse the growing unease that many ordinary folks are beginning to have with Muslims in general, not to mention the right wing politicians annd rabble rousers who will use this to stir up hatred of Muslims in western societies..

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 04:23 PM

Amen Daithi.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 04:48 PM

I think a lot of the blame for Bigley's death must lie with the occupiers....Bush and Blair.
They offer huge sums of money to entice people to work in Iraq,   not for the good of the Iraqis, but to try to give the impression that things are on track for the wonderful new "democratic" Iraq,and so save face over their blunder.
The politicians know very well the risks which await foreign workers, but are quite prepared to gamble with workers lives in their own interests.
And dont listen to any shit about not negotiating with "terrorist",
the politicians have always negotiated, because they know only too well the terorists *always* win.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 07:06 AM

I agree that all Terrorists are Just bad people. When It's person's life, we should try and save that life in anyway we can.
But as I say that's my opinion and if you don't agree then that is up to you.
I think we should agree to disagree on this.

I don't like terrorists, but as a Christian I believe in loving thy enimiy please excuse the spelling, but that's they way I was brought up, not to give in.
So I'll just pray for all terrorists everywhere in the world that they will come to know that what they are doing is wrong.

God Bless you all

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 06:28 PM

I feel very sorry for his family. They must be devastated by his death after all their efforts to save him.
The ignorant barbarians that butchered him showed him far less dignity in death than they would have shown an animal being slaughtered for Halal food.
But remember that he was out there because he wanted to earn big bucks, to make huge amounts of money, one last trip. In other words he knowingly went into a warzone out of greed. He paid too high a price for his wish for money but it was his choice, nobody forced him to go.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: iRiShBaBe
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 03:30 PM

wat about the poor iraqui's whos innocent lives have been taken by the dozen since this war started??
sympathies with mr bigleys families and friends.
ib.

Subject: RE: Obit: Ken Bigely
From: GUEST,owentowenj
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:56 AM

these people are inhuman they do not understand life as we no it there is no way we can get down to their level and am so so so sorry they cant because at this base level we are never going to have a victory. jenny owen