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BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth

Cruiser 09 Oct 04 - 09:42 PM
Blissfully Ignorant 09 Oct 04 - 09:51 PM
beardedbruce 09 Oct 04 - 09:55 PM
GUEST 10 Oct 04 - 12:50 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 10 Oct 04 - 01:03 AM
beardedbruce 10 Oct 04 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 10 Oct 04 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 10 Oct 04 - 01:30 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 04 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 10 Oct 04 - 02:55 AM
beardedbruce 10 Oct 04 - 03:08 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 04 - 03:39 AM
Peace 10 Oct 04 - 04:17 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 04 - 04:52 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 04 - 04:55 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 04 - 05:01 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Oct 04 - 05:18 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 04 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 10 Oct 04 - 03:49 PM
beardedbruce 10 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 10 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM
GUEST,Songster Bob 10 Oct 04 - 11:34 PM
Cruiser 11 Oct 04 - 10:10 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 11 Oct 04 - 10:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Oct 04 - 02:09 PM
Peace 11 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Oct 04 - 07:02 PM

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Subject: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: Cruiser
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:42 PM

From: Orwell Goes to War
Des Moines Register Editorial

"We live in Orwellian times, where obvious falsehoods are asserted brazenly as the truth"

"The day after the final report of the Iraq Survey Group confirmed that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction and no active programs to produce them, Vice President Dick Cheney blithely asserted that the report justified the invasion of Iraq."

"No, Mr. Vice President, the report shattered the last forlorn hope that the war was necessary. It established that Iraq posed no threat to the United States before the 2003 invasion or any time in the foreseeable future. President Bush, on the very day the report was issued, said, "There was a risk, a real risk, that Saddam Hussein would pass weapons or materials or information to terrorist networks."

"No, Mr. President, you don't seem to get it. Saddam had no weapons or materials to give. The chemical and biological weapons were destroyed years ago, and Iraq's capacity to develop nuclear weapons was actually deteriorating at the time of the invasion. Not to mention that Saddam had no meaningful ties with terrorists. On Thursday, Bush dropped the reference to weapons but continued to insist Saddam had knowledge of weapons that could have been given to terrorists. That's knowledge anyone can get off the Internet."

Orwell Goes to War


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:51 PM

None of the orchestrators of this war seems to have considered the fact that if Saddam did have WMDs, he might get them out of the country rather sharpish? Or even that he did it years ago...


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:55 PM

"Saddam had no weapons or materials to give. The chemical and biological weapons were destroyed years ago,"


Actually, the report does NOT make this claim. It states that there is not enough evidence to determine the status of chemical and biological weapons produces brfore 1990.

It really is a pity that the extremists on BOTH sides refuse to even read the reports they claim to justify their positions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:50 AM

The Israelis already told the world that those weapons were cached and hidden in Syria. For all the time ineffective UN sanctions were in place, the transfer of weapons have been known to have taken place between Syria and Iraq. I doubt if most people in this forum will be convinced of these facts, but credit the fact that in this war there will be no solid borders, and that alliances between Muslim extremists will and do exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:03 AM

Seems to me if he had any WMDs he would've used them when we invaded. What could he lose? His reputation?

You don't need a report, just common sense.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:14 AM

Clint,

Common sense would have had Saddam complying with the UN resolutions, so he could come to the UN and ask for protection from the US. Let me know when you figure out why he did not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:27 AM

"Let me know when you figure out why he did not (ask the UN for protection from the US.)

Pride.
He was going to go down on history as a hero.; I understand he had bricks printed with something like "Built in the dynasty of Saddam."

And his character.
In the past he showed reluctance to comply with the UN resolutions, but he was not reluctant to use WMDs when he did have them.

And what reason would he have for thinking the US would obey the UN? The UN didn't want us to invade as it was, even though Sadddam didn't appeal to them. "An illegal war," according to Kofi Annam.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:30 AM

I think that should be "Annan." Though I've seen it as "Annam."

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 02:04 AM

Kofi Annan is as much a war criminal as anyone he accuses. The UN has completely failed to act in the best interests of many countries, and in fact has caused genocide in some. Fuck Off Kofi....


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 02:55 AM

Criminal or not, my point was that Saddam would have been a fool to expect the UN to protect him from the US. We've only obeyed the UN when we wanted to.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 03:08 AM

"Pride.
He was going to go down on history as a hero.; I understand he had bricks printed with something like "Built in the dynasty of Saddam."

And his character.
In the past he showed reluctance to comply with the UN resolutions, but he was not reluctant to use WMDs when he did have them."

"my point was that Saddam would have been a fool to expect the UN to protect him "


Since you have stated that he was a fool, willing to go to war rather than obey the UN resolutions, I do not understand why you think he would have acted the way you think he would have, using WMD in combat on his own territory, if he had them. I would think that he would hide them away, in another country, and then have them used against the US, or other high profile target. THAT would get him fame and noteriety.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 03:39 AM

beardedB, the only thing to gather from yours and clint's post is that neither of you know squat about what saddam thinks or doesn't think and that the facts in the report state that he had NO WMDs, NO CAPABILITY of MAKING THEM, and NO MATERIALS TO MAKE THEM WITH. these are fully investigated facts from a bush-sanctioned outfit. you're pissing in the wind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 04:17 AM

Hell, Saddam Hussein was/is as crazy as a silly putty. Even HE doesn't know what he thinks. Shares lots with Bush in that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 04:52 AM

• ISG has uncovered hardware at a few military depots, which suggests that Iraq may have prototyped experimental
CW rounds. The available evidence is insuffi cient to determine the nature of the effort or the timeframe
of activities.
• Iraq could indigenously produce a range of conventional munitions, throughout the 1990s, many of which
had previously been adapted for fi lling with CW agent. However, ISG has found ambiguous evidence of
weaponization activities.

summary of report


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 04:55 AM

ISG uncovered information that the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) maintained throughout 1991 to 2003
a set of undeclared covert laboratories to research and test various chemicals and poisons, primarily for
intelligence operations. The network of laboratories could have provided an ideal, compartmented platform
from which to continue CW agent R&D or small-scale production efforts, but we have no indications this was
planned. (See Annex A.)
?ISG has no evidence that IIS Directorate of Criminology (M16) scientists were producing CW or BW agents
in these laboratories. However, sources indicate that M16 was planning to produce several CW agents
including sulfur mustard, nitrogen mustard, and Sarin.
?Exploitations of IIS laboratories, safe houses, and disposal sites revealed no evidence of CW-related research
or production, however many of these sites were either sanitized by the Regime or looted prior to OIF. Interviews
with key IIS offi cials within and outside of M16 yielded very little information about the IIS?activities
in this area.
?The existence, function, and purpose of the laboratories were never declared to the UN.
• The IIS program included the use of human subjects for testing purposes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 05:01 AM

location for full text


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 05:18 AM

Now that Johnny's won, I expect to see this sort of crap happening in Australia.
~~~~~~~~~
FBI Seizes Indymedia Servers
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100904W.shtml
By Online Staff

    Friday 08 October 2004

    The FBI has issued an order to hosting provider Rackspace in the US, ordering it to turn over two of the servers hosting the Independent Media Centre's websites in the UK, a statement from the group says.

    Rackspace has offices in the US and the UK. Independent Media Center, which is better known as Indymedia, was set up in 1999 to provide grassroots coverage of the World Trade Organisation (WTO) protests in Seattle.

    Rackspace complied with the FBI order, without first notifying Indymedia, and turned over Indymedia's server in the UK. This affects over 20 Indymedia sites worldwide, the group said.

    Indymedia said it did not know why the order had been issued as it was issued to Rackspace. Rackspace told some of the group's volunteers "they cannot provide Indymedia with any information regarding the order." ISPs have received gag orders in similar situations which prevent them from updating the parties involved on what is happening.

    Indymedia said a second server was taken down at Rackspace. This provided streaming radio to several radio stations, BLAG (a Linux distribution), and a handful of miscellanous things.

    In August the US Secret Service used a subpoena in an attempt to disrupt the New York city Independent Media Center before the Republican National Convention by trying to get IP logs from an ISP in the US and the Netherlands.

    Last month the US Federal Communications Commission shut down community radio stations around the US. Two weeks ago the FBI asked Indymedia to remove a post on the Nantes IMC that had a photo of some undercover Swiss police and IMC volunteers in Seattle were visited by the FBI on the same issue.

    Indymedia said the list of local media collectives affected included Amazonia, Uruguay, Andorra, Poland, Western Massachusetts, Nice, Nantes, Lilles, Marseille (all France), Euskal Herria (Basque Country), Liege, East and West Vlaanderen, Antwerpen (all Belgium), Belgrade, Portugal, Prague, Galiza, Italy, Brazil, UK, part of the Germany site, and the global Indymedia Radio site.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Rackspace Statement Regarding Indymedia
    By Annalie Drusch
    Director, Corporate Communications
    Rackspace Managed Hosting

    Friday 08 October 2004

    In the present matter regarding Indymedia, Rackspace Managed Hosting, a U.S. based company with offices in London, is acting in compliance with a court order pursuant to a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT), which establishes procedures for countries to assist each other in investigations such as international terrorism, kidnapping and money laundering. Rackspace responded to a Commissioner's subpoena, duly issued under Title 28, United States Code, Section 1782 in an investigation that did not arise in the United States. Rackspace is acting as a good corporate citizen and is cooperating with international law enforcement authorities. The court prohibits Rackspace from commenting further on this matter.

    For additional information on the MLAT, please visit findlaw.com


© Copyright 2004 by TruthOut.org


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 05:28 AM

"This report will deny the reader
any simple answers. It will seek to force broader and deeper understanding from multiple perspectives
over time."

"Since there remains the possibility (though small) of remaining WMD, such reports will continue
to be evaluated and investigated as judged necessary."

"Moreover, certain defi ned questions remain unanswered. For
example, we cannot express a fi rm view on the possibility that WMD elements were relocated out
of Iraq prior to the war. Reports of such actions exist, but we have not yet been able to investigate
this possibility thoroughly. Likewise, there remains some uncertainty concerning reports of mobile
BW capabilities—though we have conducted an extensive investigation and we have a paucity of
confi rmatory information, there is still some possibility that such a capability did exist."


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 03:49 PM

"beardedB, the only thing to gather from yours and clint's post is that neither of you know squat about what saddam thinks or doesn't think."

That's pretty much right. I was dumb enough to try to answer bb's statement "Let me know when you figure out why he did not (appeal to the UN)" and I tried to figure out why he wouldn't instead of seeing that "why" is beside the point. I stepped right into it. Explaining someone else's motives is a guessing game. I'm not as clear-thinking as I'd like to believe and I lose my Zen and get led astray every once in a while.

I should have said

No WMD's were found before or during the war, Colin Powell's report was only a series of assertions( he has since expresed regret that he made that report), and Saddam used no WMDs in the war, nuclear, chemical or biological and so, in my judgement, he had none. The recent report bears me out.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM

Clint,

If you want to say "no significant numbers of WMD were found..." I will not argue with your statement. But the posts about the report seem to indicate there are still unknowns about whether he had WMD that he moved to other countries.

My major objection was to

"You don't need a report, just common sense."

when dealing with Saddam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM

'My major objection was to "You don't need a report, just common sense." '

Yes that was an arrogant way of putting it, and it was thoughtless of me. But it seemed so obvious to me that I just blurted it out. My paragraph on 10 Oct 04 - 03:49 PM puts it better.

I didn't say "when dealing with Saddam," though. I was only talking about deciding whether he had WMDs, but now that you bring it up, what's wrong with common sense when dealing with Saddam? You couldn't expect him to have any sense, but that's no reason to be irrational yourself.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:34 PM

Saddam was afraid to admit to not having weapons because he feared his immediate enemy nations, Iran and Israel. He seemed to think he could slip the US's questions and interest, and seemed surprised that we actually attacked.

I always thought that the task he had was impossible -- proving a negative. The only way would be to allow inspectors into every aspect of his rule, for a long time, and he would have lost very much of his own power over his country if he did that.

I also thought that Bush had Saddam on the ropes, ready to give us nearly anything we wanted, just before we attacked. If we'd hung on longer, he might have accepted asylum in another country and we could have let Iraq start down the road to self-rule (democracy or something approaching it) without a single American death.

Are we safer with Saddam gone? You'll have to show me, 'cause I don't see it at all.

Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: Cruiser
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 10:10 AM

Good points Bob.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 10:46 AM

Bingo, Bob... Bingo!

Bush didn't 'rush to war'... he has showed such a grand temperance... he has wanted to 'get' Saddam for about a decade or so... and all this tiresome business of democracy and diplomacy and economic development, has been put on the 'backslider'... "Who, me care?
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 02:09 PM

To get back to Orwell, he summed it up pretty well, with Big Brother's slogans: "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength".

And of course people loved Big Brother. He was so "likeable", it was generally agreed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM

What we see happening also is the scenario built up in Animal Farm. The novels work well together, although I hesitate to call them novels, what with so much playing out in real life. First you scare the people, then you give the people safety in exchange for freedoms, then you have them by the short and curlies, after which their hearts and minds will follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Orwellian times: Falsehoods=Truth
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 07:02 PM

... except for a few cynics, which can be neutralised, one way or another - see Animal Farm. Disbelievers can also be neutered - which was one of the basic premises of 1984.


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