BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.

Subject: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Young Guy.
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:13 PM

Can we top my dad's thread with this?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:17 PM

No need. But I am pleased to see a balanced perspective!! Does Old Guy know you are using the computer?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:19 PM

Nope.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Young Guy
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:19 PM

I would get spanked.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:21 PM

I hope to God this thread doesn't go on as long as the other one has.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:23 PM

I hope it does. Right up until election day.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:26 PM

Bush in Error.

Thinks he was elected in 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:29 PM

Bush thinks?

LOL....

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:42 PM

This could be a good use for the toilet paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:57 PM

I have to go. However, I wanted to leave you with the following thought:

Guest Young Guy--You are smarter than the Old Guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 12:25 AM

Oh Dear! Now it seems that Saddam's Naughty Bits got looted just after the War when the UN inspectors had to leave, and the American troops made no attempt to stop the looting or protect the sites, so now the black market is awash with the stuff...

Now who said that it would have been better not to invade so the UN inspectors could keep track of the stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 01:02 AM

Interesting article on that very subject, Foolestroup:

UN: Iraqi Nuclear-Related Materials Have Vanished

This article is about materials that disappeared after the US invasion of Iraq. (Beardedbruce, take note.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 01:06 AM

Actually, I commented on this some months ago- but SRS declared my source to be of the wrong political view, and refused to consider any of the facts presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 01:10 AM

Did you read the article I linked to, Beardedbruce? They are blaming this problem on the fact that the US wouldn't allow UN Nuclear inspectors in during and after the invasion, and because the US didn't do anything to protect these sites and materials from being looted, and/or spirited away during and after the invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 01:28 AM

And the point is that there was no danger in any of this material, right? Or are you saying that it was dangerous, and we were correct in invading? Con't have it both ways.


Or is it dangerous in terrorist hands, but not in Saddam's?

I did read the article- unlike the previous refernce, which was declared to be of not value, and the facts could not even be discussed, because it was from a conservative site. Same facts as presented here, so.... They can't really be valid, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 03:50 AM

beardedbruce, it's you who are trying to have it both ways:

1) if it's not dangerous, it doesn't matter that we lost it, so we're doing fine

2) if it IS dangerous, then Saddam had WMD so we were right to go into Iraq, so we're doing fine.

On the other side, you could say:

1) if it's not dangerous, then we screwed up going into Iraq becuae there were no WMD.

2) if it IS dangerous, then we screwed up in losing the materials.

You subscribe to one of these fallacies, and make fun of people who subscribe to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 03:55 AM

"You subscribe to one of these fallacies, and make fun of people who subscribe to the other"



I agree. To both sides. I had brought this up as an example of the dangerous material, and was told that it was not valid. So how can YOU( the generic liberals) claim it is a problem, since it was declared so non-dangerous in the earlier thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 03:59 AM

I NEVER said we did not make a mistake in securing the material- but you all have been telling me how it was not dangerous, so how can YOU complain?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 04:09 AM

IMO, the two sides are:

1) if it IS dangerous, then Saddam had WMD so we were right to go into Iraq, BUT we screwed up in losing the materials.

On the other side, you could say:

2) if it's not dangerous, then we screwed up going into Iraq becuae there were no WMD, BUT it doesn't matter that we lost it.


Which one would you like to support?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 04:24 AM

Tam-ti-tam-ti-tam...(tapping fingers). Talking about it achieves little. Just go out and vote, folks; the rest is mock turtle soup.

And vote carefully, calmly and consciensciously. After all, we all deserve the governments/leadership we have, in the end. Even the Iraqis. One may not be proud of the President that will be elected. But one can at least be proud of one's own vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 10:20 AM

Excelsior.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 10:21 AM

I don't think beardedbruce will be happy with the election results.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 11:54 AM

I think the point, beardedbruce, is that the UN inspectors had things under control. The US came in and created chaos. The situation wasn't dangerous as long as the UN was keeping things under control. Now that the Bush administration has created chaos, it is possible that the situation has become dangerous.

And as I recall, regardless of whether or not the article you posted that you are now referring to was from an acceptible source, you were trying to use it to make a point that the article itself didn't even make. You were saying that the materials had been removed before the UN inspectors left Iraq. The article did not say that. And now this article further supports the fact that the materials were removed after the UN inspectors left Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 12:26 PM

these articles have to be read with a grain of salt:

"Satellite imagery shows that entire buildings in Iraq have been dismantled. They once housed high-precision equipment that could help (italics mine) a government or terror group make nuclear bombs"

if 'something' is gone, that does NOT prove exactly what WAS there, nor does it explain who removed it, or for what purpose, or that it was inherently dangerous when it WAS there. "high-precision equipment" could be lathes and microscopes...

similarly, not finding WMDs does not prove they were "just well hidden", etc.....it is easy to construct sentences and claims that, while technically true, explain almost nothing.

"if a small boy has a hammer, almost everything he sees looks like a nail"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 12:34 PM

"And if a small boy with a hammer is nuts he will use it to break everything in sight...."

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 12:37 PM

What the Bush Administration has failed to do is to protect Iraqi assets from looting. That's no problem for them because they just give Halliburton $10 to replace every dollar's worth of assets stolen. Its a win win for Cheney/Bush. They're paying for the whole thing with our money and our children's money.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 07:23 PM

Carol,

My point was NOT that it was removed before the invasion- but that it existed at all. In violation of UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:24 PM

No, beardedbruce, you were using the article to bolser your argument that allowing the UN inspectors to continue to do their job, even as long as they did, allowed Saddam to get the materials out of Iraq before the invasion. I'll find the relevant post of yours and link it to this thread.

On the subject of the UN resolutions, we have already established that the resolutions did not, in any way, authorize the US to attack Iraq and that, in fact, the US most definitely violated the UN resolutions by invading Iraq. The resolutions in question specifically state that the member nations agree to respect and uphold the sovreignty of the Iraqi nation, and it stated that the UNSC would remain seized of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:28 PM

Oh, yeah. The resolution also states that member nations agree to not interfere in any way with the UN inspectors ability to do their job. The UN inspectors had to leave Iraq because of the impending US invasion, so the US was in violation of the resolution in that respect as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:35 PM

CarolC:

"On the subject of the UN resolutions, we have already established that the resolutions did not, in any way, authorize the US to attack Iraq and that, in fact, the US most definitely violated the UN resolutions by invading Iraq."

I am not sure that your stetment is true. I beleive that there is wording to indicate that action would be taken if Iraq did not comply- which is what the US did.

And Iraq kicked the inspectors out, if I recall the facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:39 PM

If I may, the invasion took place NOT with UN approval, but despite LACK of UN approval. That's what led to the "Coalition of the Willing". The group consisted of USA, GB, Spain and Bulgaria.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:44 PM

link

2002 resolutions

1441

2004 resolutions

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:50 PM

Beardedbruce, the UN resolution does not authorize the US to take any action without the approval of the Security Council. And the Security Council did not in any way give the US the authority to take any action. In fact, as I have said before, it specifically states that member nations agree to uphold Iraqi soveriegnty, and to not interfere in any way with the UN inspectors ability to do their job. I have read the resolution very, very carefully, looking for any language that authorizes the US to take action on its own initiative, and it just isn't there. The US violated the resolution by A. interefering in the UN inspectors ability to do their job, and B. by not upholding the soveriegnto of the Iraqi nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:52 PM

*sovereignty*

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 08:59 PM

beardedbruce: There are GANGS of Un Resolutions there. Would you please point me to the one wherein the UN sanctions the US invasion of Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM

1441 declares that it is the last chance to comply before "serious consequences" ( diplomatic talk for armed action) occurs.

Yes, there is interpretation required- but for every lawyer that thinks one thing, there is an equal and opposite one just waiting to be asked.

Each of us have our own opinion on whether the invasion was legal, and on whether it was justified. WHy should I take your opinions as fact, when you do not take mine as such?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 09:40 PM

I didn't ever ask you to take my opinions as fact. I did ask you to show me the resolution that says the US has UN blessing to invade Iraq. Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 09:55 PM

Brucie- see 13 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 09:58 PM

That still doesn't show me the Resolution that says the US has UN sanction to invade Iraq. That is what I wish to see, BB.

Thanks though.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 10:27 PM

I see life must be a little quiet for Beardedbruce. He's back on one of those hot button issues, mis-reading and mis-representing the issues in his consistent fashion. And I see my name popped up in here.

BB, you used some pretty hokey sources when you posted to that earlier contentious thread. The link posted here is to Reuters, which is a perfectly good large international news bureau. That makes a huge difference in the credibility of the article.

I'm not going to fool with this thread--why bother? You never let the facts get in the way of the argument you want to make. You and Dubya have a lot in common.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 10:32 PM

brucie


1441 declares that it is the last chance to comply before "serious consequences" ( diplomatic talk for armed action) occurs.

Yes, there is interpretation required- but for every lawyer that thinks one thing, there is an equal and opposite one just waiting to be asked.

Each of us have our own opinion on whether the invasion was legal, and on whether it was justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 11:00 PM

So that means that when the US decides that something is OK to do that then it is OK for the US to do that.

Canada chose not to play ball this time 'round because there WAS no UN sanction. There is not much open to interpretation. Unless EVERYthing is open to interpretation, in which case your Constitution is up for grabs, your legal structure is totally open to interpretation, and world peace is just another name for Neocon dominance--with the US playing the role of the enforcer. Because what you have said simply means that the US can do what it darn well wants when it darn well wants to do it. Hell, whay didn't you just say so in the first place. Woulda saved lots of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM

EVERY COUNTRY can do what it darn well wants when it darn well wants to do it.

AND accept the consequences.




Iraq can ignore UN resolutions.

France and Germany can ignore UN sanctions against Iraq, and help Saddam re-arm.

The US can enforce what it sees to be a clear and present danger, and lose lives and spend money.

And all of the world can ignore places like Sudan, Rwanda, Cambodia, etc if it might be convenient.


I hope this has made things cleared, brucie.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM

beardedbruce, the UNSC is the only body authorized under the terms of the resolution, and by agreement of its signatories, to determine what the "serious consequences" of non-compliance with that particular UNSC resolution should be, and when they should be applied. The resolution specifically states that the UNSC decides to remain seized of the matter (chooses to continue to monitor the situation and make decisions as it develops). And it also specifically states that member nations agree to respect the borders and uphold the sovereignty of the Iraqi nation. And it also specifically states that member nations agree not to hinder, in any way, the ability of the UN inspectors to do their job. Both of these conditions place specific limits on what member nations can and cannot do under the terms of the resolution.

The fact that the US is a signatory to this resolution binds it to the terms of the resolution. The US, being a signatory to the resolution, cannot then use the resolution as an excuse to violate the terms of the resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 11:42 PM

The fact that Iraq was signitory to cease-fire terms binds it to complience with the UN resolutions. SO WHAT?

The US can enforce action against what it sees to be a clear and present danger, and lose lives and spend money.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 11:47 PM

It can take that action, but it cannot use the UNSC resolution as its justification for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM

It can take the FAILURE of the UN to take action as a reason to take action.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:02 AM

That just says, "If you don't see things my way, UN, then I will do what I want to do with or without you."

Your clear and present danger scenario has played out in the past. Russia puttin missiles in Cuba--that was a clear and present danger. Iraq may or may not having WMDs--that's a little shaky to me.

My nightmare during the Gulf War was that Iraq would arm a few Scuds with bio or chemical weapons. That scared the shit outta me, because if one of them had hit Israel, I really think that Israel would have used nuclear weapons in response. Given the nature of the conflict in the mid-East, I do think the Israelis would have had no choice but to hit about six countries that surround it. (I am not trying to open a can of worms here. I am not at all saying whether I think this is a good or bad response. However, I think it's the response that would have occurred.)

9/11 was a clear and present danger, and ostensibly that is at least part of the reason the US went into Iraq. But ther has never been a link drawn between 9/11 and Iraq. Hell, what was the worry about letting the UN decide what constituted a 'clear and present danger'?

How, exactly then, did Iraq pose a 'clear and present danger' to the USA? If possession of WMDs are a c and pd to the US, then there are at least 20 countries that have nukes, that many with chem weapons and probably that many with bio weapons. Hell, is the US gonna take the world saying the world is a 'clear and present danger' to the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:09 AM

The UN didn't fail to take action. As we now see, the UN was taking precisely the correct action. It was sending its inspectors into Iraq. The inspectors were doing a good job. The US action of kicking out the inspectors and attacking Iraq is now being blamed for the disappearance of the materials that were discussed in the link I posted in this thread, as well as stockpiles of conventional weapons which are now being used to kill US soldiers as well as innocent Iraqi civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:12 AM

I'm going to bed. Catch you tomorrow if the satellite is working.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:14 AM

ok. Have a good rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM

Ever feel like we're in that cartoon with the sheepdog and the wolf? One of them was called Ralph. Can't remember the other. I know I laughed when the whistle went at the end of the day and regardless where they were at in their activities--mid punch, mid breath, mid scream--the action stopped and that was it until they punched their timecards next day. Anyway, goodnight Ralph.

PS BB, a year ago I would have agreed with you; in fact, a year ago I did. I have changed my mind. Not because WMDs were not found, but because the reason for the US invasion has become very clear to me. This is about oil. Not getting rid of Hussein--and he had to be got rid of; not about 9/11; that had nothing to do with Iraq; not about the UN and WMDs. It is about oil. Always was, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:57 AM

brucie,

I agree that he needed to be gotten rid of. From the evidence AT THE TIME, I feel we were justified in going in. It was NEVER about 9/11- but it was about a source for terrorist WMD.

IMO, it is NOT about oil- we are spending more, and have less control over the oil than we did even under the Oil for Food program. The European countries that protested did so because of oil- but the US is not getting oil out of this-we are using it up. Check past threads- we are buying gas from Kuwait to sell at a cheaper price to the Iraqis. The whole "blood for oil" is a slogan that has no meaning. Unless you want to say US blood for European oil.

I am still not sure there are not WMD in the area, from Iraq. The report is quite clear that it DOES NOT address the possibility of WMD being moved out of Iraq to, say, Syria. When WMD are concerned, I would rather be pessimistic and be pleasently proved wrong, than be optimistic and be dead.

Of course, around here that makes me a target, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:09 AM

I hear you. I agree only partly on the oil thing. What you say is true, but the US will have to recoup its losses in this war. One way or the other. Incidentally, you are not a target to me. I love getting your goat when I can, and I tend to like people who argue for what they believe, even though I think--on occasion--that they are misguided.

To me, this is about world domination by multi-nationals. I believe there is a neocon agenda at work. (Yes, I have bought into the conspiracy theory of history.) Target: not to me. Adversary with whom I like to argue?: definitely.

You and I share much common ground. I would enjoy having a few beers with you if opportunity ever presents itself. I like your poetry/writing, even though we are often against each other in the political stuff. Basically, what's gonna happen is what's gonna happen. IMO, much of it is already written, and all we can do is try to figure out how we all let it come to be. The thing I like about you is that you are tenacious and you believe in what you are saying. Even though I disagree, as far as I'm concerned, that puts you miles above most of the people we elect to political office.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:18 AM

"as far as I'm concerned, that puts you miles above most of the people we elect to political office. "

I will take this as a compliment, though it could be damming with faint praise...


I have never understood how the neocons could possibly be so incompetent, according to most of those posting here, yet so effective.

I have never been a neocon- while I do believe (IMO) that the US was justified in going into Iraq ( actually, I think we waited too long), there are a lot of neocon points I do not agree with. The problem is that here, if I support Bush in Iraq, it is presumed I agree about gay marriage, abortion, et al- which is not true. I just feel the damage that the Bush administration might do on the other topics is offset by the ( IMO) required defense of my country. I would be much happier if Elizabeth Dole were president- but in the present choice, I would rather have a paranoid person who everyone thinks will fly off the handle than one who wants to get a concensus of the whole world before taking required steps to "provide for the common defence" , the primary function of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:25 AM

I will get back to this on the 'morrow. Gotta get for the nonce. If I don't get at least six hours sleep I get owly. Later.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:35 AM

My son says Kerry is a lying cocksucker.

Was it the nuclear materials that the UN inspectors said did not exist that vanished?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 02:06 PM

Nope. Keep up here. They said W's of MD didn't exist. They knew that nuclear materials existed, and were keeping a darn good watch on them unitl the US told them "you better get out, 'cause we can't gaurantee your safety when we start bombing". Inspectors (wisely) high-tailed. US forces invade and fail to secure facilities. Nuclear material now in the hands of God Knows who. Pretty simple. Pretty stoopid.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 03:47 PM

Dear Young Guy:

Wash the Old Guy's mouth out with soap. He is definitely NOT a nice person.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 03:56 PM

"one who wants to get a concensus of the whole world before taking required steps to "provide for the common defence" "

Kerry didn't say that; he specifically denied it, and you know it.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:02 PM

BB:

I gotta second Keller on it -- you reversed Kerry's posture on him and then chastised him for a position he never took.

The entire falsehood perpetrated by your right wing friends was that they had to go into Iraq to provide for the common defense. It was not true then. It is true that right now, being waist deep in shit of our own making, so to speak, that we have a probelm in common defense.

Bush had no real grounds for this invasion. He didn't understand Iraq, didn't know the difference between a Sunni and a Hashemite and a sushi, certainly did not understand Hussein's game or his bluffing. He did not know what was on the ground where. He knew none of the things you should know before taking a fight to the enemy's home turf. Why he went ahead was he was in the grip of war-mongers who didn't care, who though brute force would be enough.

Arrogance and assholery of the first order--if not his directly then his by agency.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:58 PM

Hate to see this thread not getting equal billing with the other one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 07:43 PM

Yep, really don't like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 07:48 PM

So, what you are saying is that Kerry, if presented with the evidence that Bush had seen ( whether true or false) and the warning form Russia, would have done exactly what Bush did? If so, he is lying, now: If not, he would not be acting against what, IMO, was a clear and present danger to the US.

Just my opinion. Sorry if we look at the world and see different things, but I beleive a larger number of people would have seen Iraq as a danger than would not have.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:02 PM

So, when is the US leaving Iraq, not to change the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:09 PM

If Bush wins, we will leave in January, after the elections. If Kerry wins, we will probably stay another year to help support the UN "peacekeepers" that will be trying to keep the three sides from wiping each other out.

IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:12 PM

So, basically, the US isn't leaving anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:26 PM

Well, since the Dems insisted on running another candidate that could not win, in order to make it easy for Clinton ( Hillary, this time) to run in the next election, we should be out as soon as the other countries get together and provide "peacekeeping" forces, after the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:31 PM

Were supposed to be out in June (past), no?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:34 PM

beardedbruce, here's the thread with your posts asserting that allowing the UN inspectors to remain in Iraq do their job was responsible for weapons having been removed from Iraq prior to and during the US invasion of Iraq, and a quote from that thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Well, looky here...
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:46 AM

(beardedbruce- )

TRUE- and that is a result of the delay and attempt to get a consensus in the UN. If the US had acted unilateraly, without months of debate and warning, we might have found them still in place- but that is not how we do things.... I wonder why?

(me- )

"Not quite, beardedbruce. The UN inspectors were doing a good job of containing and eliminating Saddam's weapons. They wanted to finish the job they started. They warned that an attack on Iraq by the US (and the coalition of the coerced) before they finished the job, would probably accomplish the exact opposite of the results the US said it wanted (elimination of WMDs), and that, instead, whatever WMDs still existed would probably end up in the hands of the wrong people, including terrorists. And this appears to be exactly what has happened.

I'd say the UN inspectors were right about this one. We should have let them finish their job."

BS: Well, looky here... (Iraqi WMDs)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:54 PM

So, you are telling me that there WERE prohibited weapons, and the US was justified (but perhaps not wise) in attacking?


If you insist that they were not there, how could they end up in the wrong hands?

If you insist they were there, the reasons the US gave for attacking were valid.


Can't have it both ways. I have never said the execution of the war was without serious flaws- but the reasons to attack seem to me to be adaquate.

IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:04 PM

I assure you that Kerry is not "another candidate that could not win",. The last candidate they ran could and did. So will this one. Hell, he's already shut down the incumbent three times on nationaltelevision.

Your bizarre notions about some Demo plan around Hillary are laughable at best.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:07 PM

A

We shall see. Lets talk about it on November 3rd ( or later, depending on the lawsuits...)

B

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM

I don't know if there were prohibited weapons or not. I have never said I knew whether there were prohibited weapons or not. What I have said is that the UN inspectors knew whether or not there were prohibited weapons, and that they were doing a good job of dealing with whatever weapons (or materials not counted as weapons, prohibited or not) they found, and that the best and least hazardous course of action would have been for the US to let them continue to do their job. And now events are showing this to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM

"So, what you are saying is that Kerry, if presented with the evidence that Bush had seen ( whether true or false) and the warning form Russia, would have done exactly what Bush did? If so, he is lying, now: If not, he would not be acting against what, IMO, was a clear and present danger to the US."

So, what you are saying is that there are only two possibilities: to do exactly what Bush did, or to do nothing? Obvious nonsense. There are many courses of action in almost any situation.

"I beleive a larger number of people would have seen Iraq as a danger than would not have."

Most of the world did not see Iraq as a danger, as I have pointed out before.

And what about that phony claim I called you on at 3:56 PM?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM

Here's a simpler way to put it just for you:

Supporting the work of the UN inspectors and allowing them to continue = Good for the US and the rest of the world

Attacking Iraq = Bad for the US and the rest of the world

...or to put it even more simply:

UN weapons inspections = Good

Attacking Iraq = Bad

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM

My last was for beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:27 PM

Getting rid of Saddam- good

getting killed by WMD - bad



THAT was what was the October, 2002 question.


Clint,

For every statement from Kerry, there seems to be an opposite one. Of course he said he would rush out and defend the US..... righjt after taking a poll as to what the most popular thing in the world would be.


As for those who said that we did not need to attack Iraq, HOW MANY EVER told Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions? Seems like they were a little predjudiced, from the begining...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:57 PM

As to what Kerry would have done, you can count on two aspwects of his nature:

1. He would have bent over BACKWARDS before sending men in to battle to make sure there was no viable path, instead of jumping at ANY excuse or even inventing casii belli as W did over and over. For one rerason, he was there on the ground and knows what it means to stand into danger.

2. He would have understood the data before himn well enough to realize it was rotten, because he is capable of thinking about information and seeing when it doesn't add up.

W's only alarm goes off when the data threatens to make him look bad. He doesn't dig consistency or logical sequence, or misestimations of importance or other dodges, except as tools in PR. Using these things as a way to reason through second hand information from a distant scene is beyond him.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:06 PM

You are making statments of opinion as if they were facts.


*I* do not know that I can count on ANY of those things to occur as you have stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:17 PM

Jesus bloody Christ, BB, of COURSE those are speculative statements. I was extrapolating based on what I do know about the difference ebetween the two men. How can a speculative proposition be answered with facts? It is a what-if scenario, man!! The answer is not technically just opinion but an extrapolation from known trends. Feel free to project your own fantasies.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:21 PM

The USA was supposed to leave Iraq in June. It's still there. So, when's it leaving?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

I don't get out much. Anyone know what's happenin' with Saddam Hussein?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:28 PM

"Of course he said he would rush out and defend the US..... righjt after taking a poll as to what the most popular thing in the world would be."

Let me, in answer, quote a noted authority who said

"You are making statments of opinion as if they were facts. *I* do not know that I can count on ANY of those things to occur as you have stated."

Kerry has not talked about a poll, or getting a consensus before moving; he has talked about what the founding fathers called "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind." Bush has not had this respect.

"Getting rid of Saddam- good
"getting killed by WMD - bad

"THAT was what was the October, 2002 question."

No. Mr Bush said the war was about getting rid of WMDs, not getting rid of Saddam. He stated just before the war that even if Sadddam stepped down, we would still invade. The "getting rid of Saddam" excuse only showed up after it was beginning to look like there were no WMDs.

I believe you are changing the facts to suit your opinions, a characteristic of the present administration.

clint

And as I keep saying, most of the world did *not* think Saddam was an imminent threat to the US, or the world. That Saddam *was* an imminent threat was a minority opinion, and a wrong one, as we see. Iraq is more of a threat now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Saddam Hussein underwent surgery about two weeks ago to repair a hernia and has made a full recovery, a US official said Wednesday (this week)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:42 PM

So, you feel that Amos is entitled to an opinion and I am not?



" believe you are changing the facts to suit your opinions, a characteristic of the present administration."

AND the Democratic candidate... AND most of the liberal posters here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:43 PM

Tuesday 12th October 2004 :
Under Cheney, Halliburton Helped Saddam Hussein Siphon Billions from UN Oil-for-Food Program by Jason Leopold

When the Iraqi Survey Group released its long awaited report last week that said Iraq eliminated its weapons programs in the 1990s, President George W. Bush quickly changed his stance on reasons he authorized an invasion of Iraq. While he campaigned for a second term in office, Bush justified the war by saying that that Saddam Hussein was manipulating the United Nation's oil-for-food program, siphoning off billions of dollars from the venture that he intended to use to fund a weapons program.

The report on Iraq's non-existent weapons of mass destruction, prepared by Charles Duelfer, a former U.N. weapons inspector and head of the Iraqi Survey Group, said Saddam Hussein used revenue from the oil-for-food program and "created a web of front companies and used shadowy deals with foreign governments, corporations, and officials to amass $11 billion in illicit revenue in the decade before the US-led invasion last year," reports The New York Times.

"Through secret government-to-government trade agreements, Saddam Hussein's government earned more than $7.5 billion," the report says. "At the same time, by demanding kickbacks from foreign companies that received oil or that supplied consumer goods, Iraq received at least $2 billion more to spend on weapons or on Saddam's extravagant palaces."

The oil-for-food program was supervised by the U.N. and ran from 1996 until the war started in Iraq last year. It was designed to alleviate the effects sanctions had on Iraqi citizens by allowing limited quantities of oil to be sold to buy food and medicine.

But the one company that helped Saddam exploit the oil-for-food program in the mid-1990s that wasn't identified in Duelfer's report was Halliburton, and the person at the helm of Halliburton at the time of the scheme was Vice President Dick Cheney. Halliburton and its subsidiaries were one of several American and foreign oil supply companies that helped Iraq increase its crude exports from $4 billion in 1997 to nearly $18 billion in 2000 by skirting U.S. laws and selling Iraq spare parts so it could repair its oil fields and pump more oil. Since the oil-for-food program began, Iraq has sold $40 billion worth of oil. U.S. and European officials have long argued that the increase in Iraq's oil production also expanded Saddam's ability to use some of that money for weapons, luxury goods and palaces. Security Council diplomats estimate that Iraq was skimming off as much as 10 percent of the proceeds from the oil-for-food program thanks to companies like Halliburton and former executives such as Cheney.

U.N. documents show that Halliburton's affiliates have had controversial dealings with the Iraqi regime during Cheney's tenure at the company and played a part in helping Saddam Hussein illegally pocket billions of dollars under the U.N.'s oil-for-food program. The Clinton administration blocked one deal Halliburton was trying to push through sale because it was "not authorized under the oil-for-food deal," according to U.N. documents. That deal, between Halliburton subsidiary Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co. and Iraq, included agreements by the firm to sell nearly $1 million in spare parts, compressors and firefighting equipment to refurbish an offshore oil terminal, Khor al Amaya. Still, Halliburton used one of foreign subsidiaries to sell Iraq the equipment it needed so the country could pump more oil, according to a report in the Washington Post in June 2001.

The Halliburton subsidiaries, Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co., sold water and sewage treatment pumps, spare parts for oil facilities and pipeline equipment to Baghdad through French affiliates from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000, U.N. records show. Ingersoll Dresser Pump also signed contracts -- later blocked by the United States -- according to the Post, to help repair an Iraqi oil terminal that U.S.-led military forces destroyed in the Gulf War years earlier.

Cheney's hard-line stance against Iraq on the campaign trail is hypocritical considering that during his tenure as chief executive of Halliburton, Cheney pushed the U.N. Security Council, after he became CEO to end an 11-year embargo on sales of civilian goods, including oil related equipment, to Iraq. Cheney has said sanctions against countries like Iraq unfairly punish U.S. companies.

During the 2000 presidential campaign, Cheney adamantly denied that under his leadership, Halliburton did business with Iraq. While he acknowledged that his company did business with Libya and Iran through foreign subsidiaries, Cheney said, "Iraq's different." He claimed that he imposed a "firm policy" prohibiting any unit of Halliburton against trading with Iraq.

"I had a firm policy that we wouldn't do anything in Iraq, even arrangements that were supposedly legal," Cheney said on the ABC-TV news program "This Week" on July 30, 2000. "We've not done any business in Iraq since U.N. sanctions were imposed on Iraq in 1990, and I had a standing policy that I wouldn't do that."

But Cheney's denials don't hold up. Halliburton played a major role in helping Iraq repair its oil fields during the mid-1990s that allowed Saddam to siphon off funds from the oil-for-food program to fund a weapons program, which Cheney and President Bush insist was the case.

As secretary of defense in the first Bush administration, Cheney helped to lead a multinational coalition against Iraq in the Persian Gulf War and to devise a comprehensive economic embargo to isolate Saddam Hussein's government. After Cheney was named chief executive of Halliburton in 1995, he promised to maintain a hard line against Baghdad.

But that changed when it appeared that Halliburton was headed for a financial crisis in the mid-1990s. Cheney said sanctions against countries like Iraq were hurting corporations such as Halliburton.

"We seem to be sanction-happy as a government," Cheney said at an energy conference in April 1996, reported in the oil industry publication Petroleum Finance Week.

"The problem is that the good Lord didn't see fit to always put oil and gas resources where there are democratic governments," he observed during his conference presentation.

Sanctions make U.S. businesses "the bystander who gets hit when a train wreck occurs," Cheney told Petroleum Finance Week. "While virtually every other country sees the need for sanctions against Iraq and Saddam Hussein's regime there, Cheney sees general agreement that the measures have not been very effective despite their having most of the international community's support. An individual country's embargo, such as that of the United States against Iran, has virtually no effect since the target country simply signs a contract with a non- U.S. business," the publication reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:46 PM

"to Baghdad through French affiliates from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000"

So isn't it also hypocritical of the French?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:47 PM

Brucie:

Mister Hussein was recently taken to a hospital in Iraq for an operation to repair a hernia, I believe, and then returned to his cell.

Otherwise, in general, he still believes he is the legal President of Iraq and seems to be otherwise in good mental shape according to an FBI agent who has studied his interrogation records.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:02 PM

I didn't like the way Saddam treated his people but I certainly didn't think he was a threat to me in any way.

Personally, I feel more threatened by the U.S.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:07 PM

Getting rid of Saddam- good

getting killed by WMD - bad


THAT was what was the October, 2002 question.

No it wasn't. THAT was the slight of hand that the Bush administration was engaging in in order to force the US and a few other countries to carry out the agenda the Neocons in the Bush administration had been planning for several years prior to 9/11 even.

If the Bush administration really had "not getting killed by WMD" as their first priority, they would have heeded the UN inspectors recommendations, which were to let them finish their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:11 PM

Thanks, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:11 PM

CarolC

I have to disagree with your opinion.

"If the Bush administration really had "not getting killed by WMD" as their first priority, they would have heeded the UN inspectors recommendations, which were to let them finish their job. "

Looking at the British report,, the warning from Russia, and the events of 9/11, IMO a reasonable person would conclude, based on past Iraqi non-compliance, there WAS a need for direct action.

IF Saddam had even tried to comply with the resolutions, I might agree with you. But he was "IN SUBSTANTIAL BREACH" In case you were not aware, this means he was not fulfilling HIS required (BY THE UN) actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:23 PM

The UN inspectors are not in agreement with your assesment of the situation, beardedbruce. And I think they were in a much better position than you, the British government, and the Russian government to make that assesment. It was their job. And it has turned out that they were right. If Bush had really had national security as his first priority, he wouldn't have been shopping around for "intelligence" that bolstered his agenda. He would have been listening to the people whose job it was to know what was going on.

"to Baghdad through French affiliates from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000"

So isn't it also hypocritical of the French?

The French aren't canditates for the vice presidency of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:35 PM

And they were saying that Saddam was not in compliance, and NOT cooperating with them.


re : French

No, but they had comments about the US attacking Iraq... "Follow the money:" it seems to me that they had an agenda of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:46 PM

Everybody seems to have an agenda of their own, unfortunately. Nobody seems to be willing or able to look at the broader picture and strive for what's best for humanity.

And they were saying that Saddam was not in compliance, and NOT cooperating with them.

That's not entirely correct. Toward the last few months, they reported a much greater degree of compliance, and they felt that this situation would continue to improve. They wanted more time to finish the job. That was their recommendation based on what they knew from being there and doing the work they were doing. It was foolhardy for Bush to ignore their recommendations, as we can so clearly see now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:56 PM

"So, you feel that Amos is entitled to an opinion and I am not?"

Well, you said this to Amos: "You are making statments of opinion as if they were facts. *I* do not know that I can count on ANY of those things to occur as you have stated." -- so why can't I say it to you? They're your words. Fair's fair.

" " believe you are changing the facts to suit your opinions, a characteristic of the present administration."
AND the Democratic candidate... AND most of the liberal posters here on Mudcat."

I do my best to verify what I say. If I have made an error of fact please tell me and give me a source for the truth.   

And saying others are also guilty of "changing facts" does not excuse you.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:26 AM

BB:

My opinions are my own. They are usually based on a mix of facts and observations and principles and conclusions, just like any other asshole out there.

Feel free to shoot your mouth off with your opinions. Be prepared to argue why, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:27 AM

CarolC

"It was foolhardy for Bush to ignore their recommendations, as we can so clearly see now. "

I disagree with this statement.

"so why can't I say it to you? They're your words. Fair's fair." You most certainly can- I did not mean to imply otherwise. I just don't want to be held to a DIFFERENT standard than those that you ( might) agree with.

"I do my best to verify what I say. If I have made an error of fact please tell me and give me a source for the truth. "

I have not said otherwise.

" " believe you are changing the facts to suit your opinions, a characteristic of the present administration."
AND the Democratic candidate... AND most of the liberal posters here on Mudcat."

I had expanded your statement to apply to others- As I said I REFUSE to be held to standards that you will not apply to those that agree with you- THAT is an example of closed-minded bigotry I do not see a need to tolerate.

Note I did not deny it- Just consider me a Democratic candidate trying to cover all the bases...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:49 AM

I am glad to see a lively debate going on here.

No doubt George W Bush will get his ass kicked all over the place and he will loose the election. Kerry supporters need not waste their time voting.

Who are the 270 recipients of oil vouchers issued by Saddam? They could be sold to oil traders for cash in the lobby of same hotel where they were issued:

Canada:
Arthur Millholland, president and CEO of the Calgary-based Oilexco company, received 1 million barrels of oil.

United States:
Samir Vincent received 10.5 million barrels. In 2000, Vincent, an Iraqi-born American citizen who has lived in the U.S. since 1958, organized a delegation of Iraqi religious leaders to visit the
U.S. and meet with former president Jimmy Carter.
Shaker Al-Khafaji,the pro-Saddam chairman of the 17th conference of Iraqi expatriates, received 1 million barrels.

Great Britain:
George Galloway received 1 million barrels.
Fawwaz Zreiqat received 1 million barrels. Zreiqat also appears in the Jordanian section as having received 6 million barrels.
The Mujahideen Khalq in Britain received 1 million barrels. The Mujahideen Khalq is an organization which opposes the Iranian regime. The U.S. government has classified it as a terrorist group.

France:
The French-Arab Friendship Association received 15.1 million barrels.
Former French Interior Minister Charles Pasqua received 12 million barrels. Mr. Pasqua denied receiving anything from Saddam.
Patrick Maugein of the Trafigura company received 25 million barrels.
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club, received 17.1 million barrels.

Switzerland:
Glenco Re, the largest commodity trader in Switzerland, received 12 million barrels.
Taurus, which has been associated with Iraq for 20 years and was the first company to renew its business with Iraq after the fall of Saddam, received 1 million barrels.
Petrogas, which is listed under three sub-companies – Petrogas Services, Petrogas Distribution, and Petrogas Resources - and is associated with the Russian company Rosneftegazetroy, received 1 million barrels.
Alcon, listed in Lichtenstein and associated with larger oil companies, received 1 million barrels.
Finar Holdings, which is listed in Lugano, Switzerland, and is under liquidation, received 1 million barrels.

Italy:
The Italian Petrol Union received 1 million barrels.
West Petrol, an Italian company that trades crude oil and oil products, received 1 million barrels.
Roberto Formigoni, possibly the president of Lombardia, received 1 million barrels.
Salvatore Nicotra, a former NATO pilot who became an oil merchant, received 1 million barrels.

Spain:
Basem Qaqish, a member of the Spanish Committee for the Defense of the Arab Cause, received 1 million barrels.
Ali Ballout, a pro-Saddam Lebanese journalist, received 1 million barrels.
Javier Robert received 1 million barrels.

Yugoslavia:
Four Yugoslav political parties received vouchers:
the Yugoslav Left party received 9.5 million barrels.
The Socialist Party received 1 million barrels.
The Italian Party received 1 million barrels.
Another party, whose name in exact transliteration is "kokstuntsha" – possibly Kostunica's party – received 1 million barrels.

Other political parties:
The Romanian Labor Party received 5.5 million barrels.
The Party of the Hungarian Interest received 4.7 million barrels.
The Bulgarian Socialist Party received 1 2 million barrels.
The Slovakian Communist Party received 1 million barrels.

Austria:
The Arab-Austrian Society received 1 million barrels.

Brazil:
The 8th of October Movement, a Brazilian Communist group, received 4.5 million barrels.
Fuwad Sirhan received 10 million barrels.

Egypt:
Khaled Gamal Abd Al-Nasser, son of the late Egyptian president, received 16.6 million barrels.
'Imad Al-Galda, a businessman and a member of the Egyptian parliament from President Mubarak's
National Democratic Party, received 14 million barrels.
Abd Al-Azim Mannaf, [5] editor of the Sout Al-Arab newspaper, received 6 million barrels.
Muhammad Hilmi, editor of the Egyptian paper Sahwat Misr, [6] received an undisclosed number of barrels.
The United Arab Company received 6 million barrels.
The Nile and Euphrates Company received 3 million barrels. The Al-Multaqa Foundation for
Press and Publication received 1 million barrels. [7]

Libya:
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem received 1 million barrels.

Sub-Saharan Africa:
Chad's foreign minister received 1 million barrels. Chad was mentioned at one time as a possible source of uranium for Iraq.
Four South Africans are listed:
Tokyo Saxville received 4 million barrels.
Montega received 4 million barrels. Both are associated with the African National Party .

Palestinians:
The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) received 4 million barrels.
The PLO Political Bureau received 5 million barrels.
Abu Al-Abbas terrorist residing in Baghdadreceived 11.5 million barrels.
Abdallah Al-Horani received 8 million barrels.
The PFLP received 5 million barrels.
Wafa Tawfiq Al-Sayegh received 4 million barrels.

Oman:
The Al-Shanfari group received 5 million barrels.

Syria:
Farras Mustafa Tlass, the son of Syrian Defense Minister Mustafa Tlass, received 6 million barrels.
'Audh Amourah received18 million barrels.
Ghassan Zakariya received 6 million barrels.
Anwar Al-Aqqad received 2 million barrels.
Hamida Na'Na', the owner of the Al-Wafaq Al-Arabi periodical, received 1 million barrels.

Lebanon:
The son of Lebanese President Emil Lahoud received 4.5 million barrels.
Former MP Najjah Wakim received 3 million barrels.
Nasserist Party head Osama M'arouf received 3 million barrels.
National Arabic Club Chairman Faisal Darnika received 3 million barrels.

Jordan:
Former Islamist MP and head of the Engineers Union Leith Shbeilat [9] received 15.5 million barrels.
Former MP and Jordanian Writers Union head Fakhri Qi'war received 6 million barrels.
Former Jordanian chief of staff Mashhour Haditha received 1 million barrels.
Former MP Toujan Al-Faisal received 3 million barrels.
The Jordanian Ministry of Energy received 5 million barrels.
Muhammad Saleh Al-Horani, the Amman Stock Exchange head and former Minister of Supplies, received 4 million barrels.
Lawyer Wamidth Hussein Al-Majali received 6 million barrels.

Qatar:
Qatari Horseracing Association Chairman Hamad bin Ali Aal Thani received 14 million barrels.
Gulf Petroleum received 2 million barrels.
The Indian Congress Party received 1 million barrels.

Indonesia:
Indonesian President Megawati received 1 million barrels as "the daughter of President Sukarno," and 1 million barrels as Megawati.

Myanmar: Myanmar's Forestry Minister received 1 million barrels.

Ukraine:
The Social Democratic Party received 1 million barrels.
The Communist Party received 6 million barrels.
The Socialist Party received 1 million barrels.
The FTD oil company received 1 million barrels, as did other Ukrainian companies.

Belarus:
The Liberal Party received 1 million barrels.
The Communist Party received 1 ton [sic] of oil.
The director of the Belarussian president's office received 1 million barrels.

Russia:
The Russian state itself received 1,366,000,000 barrels.
The list also included the following:
Companies belonging to the Liberal Democratic Party received 79.8 million barrels - t he list notes the
name of party president Vladimir Zhirinovsky.
The Russian Communist Party received 1 million barrels.
The Lukoil company received 63 million barrels.
The Russneft company received 35.5 million barrels.
Vladimir Putin's Peace and Unity Party received 34 million barrels - the list notes the name of party chairwoman Saji Umalatova.
The Gazprom company received 26 million barrels.
The Soyuzneftgaz company received 25.5 million barrels - the list notes the name Shafrannik.
The Moscow Oil Company received 25.1 million barrels.
The Onako company received 22.2 million barrels.
The Sidanco company received 21.2 million barrels.
The Russian Association for Solidarity with Iraq received 12.5 million barrels.
The Ural Invest company received 8.5 million barrels.
Russneft Gazexport received 12.5 million barrels.
The Transneft company received 9 million barrels.
The Sibneft company received 8.1 million barrels.
The Stroyneftgaz company received 6 million barrels.
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with the People of Iraq received 6.5 million barrels - the list notes the name of committee chairman Rudasev.
The Russian Orthodox Church received 5 million barrels.
The Moscow Science Academy received 3.5 million barrels.
The Chechnya Administration received 2 million barrels.
The National Democratic Party received 2 million barrels.
The Nordwest group received 2 million barrels.
The Yukos company received 2 million barrels.
One Russian company which phonetically reads as Zarabsneft received 174.5 million barrels.
Vouchers were also granted to the Russian foreign ministry, one under the name of Al-Fayko for 1 million barrels, and one to Yetumin for 30.1 million barrels.
The Mashinoimport Company received 1 million barrels.
The Slavneft Company received 1 million barrels.
The Caspian Invest Company (Kalika) received 1 million barrels.
The Tatneft Tatarstan company received 1 million barrels.
The Surgutneft company received 1 million barrels.
Siberia's oil and gas company received 1 million barrels.
The son of the former Russian Ambassador to Iraq received 19.7 million barrels.
Nikolay Ryjkov, a former prime minister of the USSR, received 13 million barrels.
The Russian President's office director received 5 million barrels.

Oil vouchers were also distributed to companies and individuals from the Sudan, Yemen, Cyprus, Turkey,
Vietnam, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Pakistan, the UAE, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Panama, Thailand, Chad,
China, Nigeria, Kenya, Ireland, Bahrain, and the Philippines.
Two Saudi companies were also listed.




Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 12:51 AM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. budget gap expanded to $412.55 billion in fiscal 2004, marking the Bush administration's second-straight record deficit, the Treasury Department said on Thursday.

Though the final 2004 figure was the largest budget deficit in U.S. history, it was smaller than the White House's most recent forecast of a $445 billion shortfall given in July and well below the $521 billion it foresaw early this year.

The bipartisan Congressional Budget Office had expected a $415 billion gap in fiscal 2004, which ended Sept. 30.

Thursday's budget announcement came the day after the third and final debate before the Nov. 2 election, where President Bush and Sen. John Kerry squared off on domestic issues, including the budget.

Treasury also invoked stop-gap accounting measures on Thursday to avoid piercing the congressionally mandated $7.384 trillion debt ceiling, which needs to be raised for the third time in three years.

The government is just $4 billion below the legal borrowing limit as of Wednesday, according to the latest data.

Congress adjourned three days ago for an election break without raising the politically sensitive limit. They are expected to address the issue when they return on Nov. 16.

(From Reuters, excerpted).


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:10 AM

The deficit was projected at over $500b but George Bush's tax cuts have caused a sooner than expected recovery from the recession that began in 2000 under the Clinton administration as made worse by 9/11.

I think that sucks. I would be much happier if it was the original $500b +. Then Kerry would have a much better chance of being elected.


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:28 AM

"As I said I REFUSE to be held to standards that you will not apply to those that agree with you?"

Well, I just thought you ought to be held to the standards you hold other people to. It seemed fair.

Look. Back to the beginning of this hassle. You said "Of course he said he would rush out and defend the US..... righjt after taking a poll as to what the most popular thing in the world would be."

You didn't say "I believe he'd rush right out..." you said " Of course *he said* he would rush out.." as though if source were Kerry instead of your opinion of his action. I would accept your belief; I will not accept a false attribution. You didn't even say "I believe he'd say..."

Helluva lot of "says" in there.

Kerry did not say that; you said that. And you did not present it as a speculation.

Like someone said, "You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." and I am tired of trying to explain the difference.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:13 AM

This article does a pretty good job of explaining the BushShiteApologist types & their tactics. Short exerpt follows:

        ...One of the great cliches of liberal criticism of the Christian fight is the idea that these people are wrongheaded because they profess to know the will of God. H.L Mencken put that one best, and perhaps first: "It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely."

        These criticisms sound like they make sense. But I think they are a little off-base. The problem not only with fundamentalist Christians but with Republicans in general is not that they act on blind faith, without thinking. The problem is that they are incorrigible doubters with an insatiable appetite for Evidence. What they get off on is not Believing, but in hav-ing their beliefs tested. That's why their conversations and their media are so com-pletely dominated by implacable bogey-men: marrying gays, liberals, the ACLU, Sean Penn, Europeans and so on. Their faith both in God and in their political convictions is too weak to survive with-out an unceasing string of real and imagi-nary confrontations with those people -and for those confrontations, they are constantly assembling evidence and facts to make their case.

        But here's the twist. They are not looking for facts with which to defeat opponents. They are looking for facts that ensure them an ever-expanding roster of opponents. They can be correct facts, incorrect facts, irrelevant facts, it doesn't matter. The point is not to win the argument, the point is to make sure the argument never stops. Permanent war isn't a policy imposed from above; it's an emotional imperative that rises from the bottom. In a way, it actually helps if the fact is dubious or untrue (like the Swift-boat business), because that guarantees an argument. You're arguing the particulars, where you're right, while they're arguing the underlying generalities, where they are.

        Once you grasp this fact, you're a long way to understanding what the Hannitys and Limbanghs figured out long ago: These people will swallow anything you feed them, so long as it leaves them with a demon to wrestle with in their dreams...


exerpted from "Bush Like Me" by Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone,28 Oct 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Matt Taibbi is an arrogant asshole
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:31 AM

Matt Taibbi

Matt Taibbi is the editor fo the Moscow-based alternative newspaper the eXile http://www.familyresource.com/contributors/8/

"Well, that's rich, isn't it? Christopher Hitchens crawling out of a bottle long enough to denounce Michael Moore as a coward. I can't imagine anything more uplifting, except maybe a zoo baboon humping the foot of a medical school cadaver.

All journalists are cowards. Hitchens knows it, I know it, everybody in this business knows it. If there were any justice at all, every last goddamn one of us would be lowered, head-first, into a wood-chipper. Over Arizona. Shoot a nice red mist over the whole state, make it arable for a year or two. A year's worth of fava beans and endive for the children of Bangladesh: I dare anyone in our business to say that that wouldn't represent a better use of our rotting bodies than the actual fruits of our labor."
http://www.nypress.com/17/26/news&columns/MattTaibbi.cfm

Continuing to bring you the best in penis-related campaign news, we learn a bit more about a controversy in the Kerry campaign. Specifically, Kerry correspondent Matt Taibbi once threw a pie of equine semen at NYT correspondent Michael Wines. So it's sort of fitting that he's covering the Kerry press corps, where his antics have included dressing up as a Viking and shoving cameras in reporters' faces.

"Sperm Pie-Throwing Journo Terrorizes Kerry Press Corps Now, those reporters really should consider themselves lucky. But journos aren't the only ones upset: After Howie Kurtz wrote about Taibbi in his column on Monday, former Clark press flak Matt Bennett emailed Kurtz to lodge a complaint. (Read it after the jump.) He cited the sperm-tossing and Taibbi's Nation piece on Clark (which was not flattering). There's also something about some "ethical issue" in Taibbi's Nation piece. (Apparently, Taibbi had an opinion of Clark before he started writing it. Doesn't he get the pre-article lobotomy like everyone else?). Bennett sums up: "Taibbi is, to put it plainly, a nut and a hack."
http://www.wonkette.com/archives/sperm-piethrowing-journo-terrorizes-kerry-press-corps-003547.php

"The girl, normally an office secretary, worked for the eXile. She was buying Pobornik�s sperm because she�d been gruffly ordered to do so by the newspaper�s editors. They�d been vague about what they needed it for, saying only that they needed a large quantity of horse sperm for some prank they were planning."

"�Cooking for the Enemy� with the Anarchist Gourmet
A PIE FOR MICHAEL WINES
    The true sign of any gourmet chef worth his salt is his ability to work with the rarest, most expensive and exotic ingredients. The Chinese have their shark fins and the endless varieties of soup based thereon, while the Piemontese of Northern Italy have their beloved white truffles, which are literally worth more than their weight in gold. We here at the eXile have a rich culinary tradition of our own, with one ingredient in particular being treasured above all others: unadulterated horse semen.
    Prices for this ingredient vary based on the quality of the source, of course. For example, prices of $100,000 per ounce are not unheard of for the finest specimens. However, sperm of such quality is typically reserved for the meals of kings and other economic royalty. In our case, 5 ounces of spunk from �Pobornik�—a decidedly mediocre 15-year-old dark bay thoroughbred who has produced no exceptional offspring—cost a reasonable 500 rubles. This is plenty good enough for a Moscow hack target, even one as diabolical as New York Times bureau chief Michael Wines.
    Monetary issues aside, simply procuring the horse sperm can be a difficult process. In most Westernized countries, you will need to present all varieties of identification and licenses certifying that you will be using the cum for appropriate purposes. Here in Moscow, meanwhile, we were able to cut a deal with Moscow Horse Farm #1 by claiming we needed the sperm for some vague cosmetics experimentation.
    Any number of delicious recipes would benefit from the addition or substitution of high-quality horse semen, but nothing says �We Got You!� like the good old-fashioned pie in the face. As it happens, horse spunk is very close in both texture and nutritional content to the corn starch that is commonly used in custard cream pies.
    Below you will find the basic recipe we used for the Equine Custard Cream Pie with which we hit Michael Wines in the face last Friday, March 30, 2001. Even the beginner should find the recipe relatively easy to follow and technically undemanding. The chef who is more experienced with the handling of horse sperm may wish to alter the quantities somewhat according to personal taste. Please note, however, that use of milk in excess of the 1 1/2 cups quoted will in most cases compromise the structural integrity of the custard-cream mixture.
    A final note on handling the horse semen. The specimen may be stored without detriment for up to one year if kept in an airtight container in your freezer. As we learned the hard way, however, keeping the sample in a refrigerator may cause the sample to assume a bright yellowish hue that may only be described as �radioactive.� It is not known if this change has an effect on the sperm�s nutritional attributes, or if it involves any kind of health risk for the human target. In any event, avoid letting the semen come in to contact with your skin, and it�s probably a good idea to dispose of any implements used in the preparation of the pie.
   
    Equine Custard Cream Pie
    1 ready-made pie crust
    3 egg yolks
    5 oz. fresh horse semen
    3/4 cup sugar
    1 1/2 cups whole milk
    1/2 teaspoon coarse (kosher) salt
    1 tablespoon butter (at room temperature)
    1 teaspoon vanilla extract
    1/2 cup heavy whipping cream
   
    for the topping:
    1 cup fresh or frozen (thawed) strawberries
    2 tablespoons sugar
    1/4 cup milk
   
    In a medium saucepan, beat the egg yolks. Stir in the horse semen and sugar until well blended. Add the milk and salt. Simmer on low heat for 5 to 7 minutes, until the custard mixture begins to bubble and froth. Stir in the vanilla extract. Keep in refrigerator for 2 to 4 hours to cool and congeal.
    Using an electric mixer, whip the cream until the formation of stiff peaks. With a spatula, gently fold the whipped cream into the cooled custard. Final mixture should be semi-liquid, with the consistency of fairly runny pudding.
    Pour the custard-cream mixture into the pie crust, filling almost to the top. Using the tines of a fork, poke the surface of the custard repeatedly in order to form tiny, meringue-like peaks. Keep in refrigerator until ready to serve.
    To make the topping, mash the strawberries (raspberries may also be used) with a fork or puree in a blender. Stir in the sugar. Add the milk gradually while stirring, as much as the mixture will accept without becoming excessively runny.
    Just before serving, pour the topping onto the pie in whatever pattern you desire, the distinctive eXile �X� in our case. Be sure not to cover the entire surface of the custard! The topping is primarily a decorative accent, after all—you want your victim, assuming his palette is sufficiently well developed, to be able to taste the horse sperm you took such pains to procure.
    Good luck!"
http://www.exile.ru/113/lead.php

MT

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:33 AM

The fact remains, Old Guy, that you are trying to hijack the Young Guy's thread. Naughty, naughty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:39 AM

Greg F:

Really interesting -- it is always nive to have someone point out the trap into which you have fallen!! :D

OG:

Your man is bankrupt, mentally, fiscally, and morally. That's my opinion. I could be wrong.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:12 AM

Upthread, bb says US will leave in January after elections if Bush is (s)elected.

First the Bushies told us we would be in and out of Iraq in three months.
Then they told us we would be out by July 2004.
Pentagon has said all along that we will be in Iraq for five years.
John McCain says five years is optimistic, it could be as long as twenty.
We are building a dozen or so permanent bases in Iraq (so they can be abandoned in January?)

Ya pretty sure about that January prediction then bb?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:52 AM

beardedbruce, I'm sure you didn't mean for this to happen, but in your last post with my name in it, it looks like all of your points are directed at me, when, as far as I can see, only your first point is directed at me and all of the subsequent points in that post appear to be directed as someone else (the person who actually said the things that you quote).

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:08 PM

I think -- after long reflection and caring examination of facts, claims and opinions on both sides of this thread -- that the title is correct.

Bush is an arrogant asshole
Bush is an arrogant asshole
Bush is an arrogant asshole.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

Democrats are staunch protectors of first amendment rights?

"NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Sinclair Broadcast Group, owner of the largest group of television stations in the nation, plans to air a documentary that accuses Sen. John Kerry of betraying American prisoners during the Vietnam War, a newspaper reported Monday.

The reported plan prompted the Democratic National Committee to file a complaint against Sinclair with the Federal Election Commission. "

"If they do air a partisan film, we'll challenge the FCC and the licenses of the local stations that broadcast the film because local stations have a responsibility to the community to air real news, not partisan messages,"

http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/11/news/newsmakers/sinclair_kerry/

Are you gonna watch? I will. It might make me re evaluate the situation and change my mind.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM

No doubt about it, Bush is an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:15 PM

CarolC 11:52


You are absolutly right.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

My apologies.

I was in error.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM

Lest this little gem of a thread be lost. Refresh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 10:24 PM

He's an anal sphincter on the body politic.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:09 AM

Brucie:

Are you worried that this thread will die and the Kerry is an arrogant asshole thread will not?

Keep firing off those brilliant one liners. That is probably as far as your train of thought goes.

I agree with everybody.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 08:25 PM

I can see that. You are brilliant, OG. Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:49 AM

Brucie:

Two whole sentences that time. You are getting better.

"In the middle of his senior year, Kerry applied for post-grad deferment to study in Paris. It was denied.

Kerry enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserve, "Inactive Duty" in Feb of his senior year. Note - not the USN. The USNR.

Both Bush and Kerry were reservists. This point is made only because the Kerry camp is denigrating Bush's ANG service."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-gop/1221757/posts

Kerry got called up and Bush did not. That makes Bush a coward and Kerry a hero.

Kerry's Genghis Kahn testimony was played over and over in NV prison camps, furthering Kerry's hero status.

Returning Veterans are spat upon and labeled war criminals by the general public due to Kerry's and Jane Fonda's efforts. That took real courage.

Any Vietnam Veteran who does not like Kerry and speaks out is labeled a lying Bush supporter even though they greatly outnumber the Vets for Kerry. This alone dishonors them for thier service to our country and denies them their first amendment rights.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:03 AM

OG,

You keep missing the point that first amendment rights are only for those that AGREE.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:46 AM

As usual, you wilfully misrepresenting fact:

... because the Kerry camp is denigrating Bush's ANG service.

No, the "Kerry Camp"[sic]-as you persist in calling anyone who doesn't think the sun shines out of Dumbya's arse- is denigrating Bush's ANG non- service. He was AWOL.

And by the way: Kerry's daddy didn't pull strings to get sonny-boy into the Reserves.

Again, a difference in kind, not in degree.

Finally, long past time you hunted up all the old tapes of Tokyo Rose, took notes, and assassinated the character of each and every person she quoted, or that some nutcase at some time claimed she quoted.

Be as useful and as meaningful as all this right-wing Chicken-Hawk vomit spewed on Kerry - who served his country honorably.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

OG is a brick short. He'll come around.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM

The reason that Kerry is not ignorant nor an asshole is because he is
thoughtful, caring, intelligent and analytical, flexible, sensitive and strong (they go together) and that he is concerned about people who
are less well-off than he is. He also served his country honorably with
responsibility.

Bush, on the other hand, is not compassionate for those less fortunate then he, acts neurotically, impulsively, has a bad temper which he
uses on his staff, and has not served his country honorably but
dodged service through his privilege and his father's intercession.
Bush pretends to be a strong leader and may have convinced some
of the people in the hinterlands that he is but not all of them. Many of
them are not stupid and are educated and read about what's going on.
Bush doesn't represent them.

Kerry's values are for community, cooperation with other countries rather than alienating them like Bush has done, respect for international bodies such as the World Court, the UN and reflects the true idealism of America which can once again become a moral leader and not an
occupier and oppressor of foreign lands.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:14 PM

"Bush pretends to be a strong leader"

You're right, Frank. There seems to be a worrying tendency in political circles at the moment to confuse "strong and resolute" with "a pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face"!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM

Brucie:

Did Kerry apply for a deferment?

Did kerry join the USNR?

Reservists are not called individually. Is it possible for someone to pull strings to keep someone's Reserve Unit from being called up for active service?

How do the answers to these questions jive with the accusations against Bush and Cheney?

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/guardandreserve/a/reservecallup.htm

"Branch & class of Service: USNR-R"
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Enlistment_Contract.pdf

"Kerry applied for a deferment in 1966 so he could study in France for a year. Only when he was denied this deferment did he opt to volunteer for the Navy signing an Officer Candidate contract to join the Naval Reserves."
"John Kerry was discharged from active duty, not the military, on January 3, 1970 after serving only three years and eighteen days of his contract with the Navy. At this time he was obligated to attend 48 Naval Reserve drills per year and complete 17 days of active training during each of the years required."
http://www.americandaily.com/article/4993

Did Kerry complete his obligations? He has not signed form 180 to have ALL of his records released, only some of them which are displayed on his website.

By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff, 6/17/2003

John Kerry flew Walinsky around New York to deliver speeches against the war. Kerry did not wear his uniform and did not speak at the events, but the experience helped convince him that he wanted to become a public leader of the antiwar movement. On Jan. 3, 1970, Kerry requested that his superior, Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr., grant him an early discharge so that he could run for Congress on an antiwar platform.

"I just said to the admiral: `I've got to get out. I've got to go do what I came back here to do, which is, end this thing,'" Kerry recalled, referring to the war. The request was approved, and Kerry was honorably discharged, which he said shaved six months from his commitment.
http://www.tinyvital.com/BlogArchives/000803.html

Bobby Kennedy speechwriter Adam Walinsky wrote Kerry's famous 1971 anti-war Washington speech.

Are these facts to be looked in the face?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:28 PM

What are you complaining about, OG? A man sees his nation embroiled in an immoral war, serves as honorably as possible in the war, comes home and does whatever he can do to get his nation out of that war. It was a dishonorable war in the first place. Kerry found this out and moved against it. Bush avoided the whole issue by staying safe Stateside.

To try to compare the moral fiber of the two, in my mind, is like comparing a Bush crow with a Kerry eagle.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:21 PM

Kerry served in the war and determined from his experiences in it, that he was against it.

Bush was for the war, and refused to serve in it.

Kerry may not be perfect, but in this context, I'd say that Bush is an uninformed hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:26 PM

Amos:

What I am complaining about is a person who claims to be a war hero when in actuality he dishonored his country. Was Jane Fonda whom he associated with a war Hero?

Jane Fonda & Tom Hayden went in and out of POW camps in Vietnam while Americans wre being tortured and listening to Kerrys testimony. Put yourself in that situation and how you would feel.

I don't think Kerry did a damned thing to get them out but caused them to be in there longer and suffer more. Then when they came home they wers called war criminals because of all the shit Kerry, Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden stirred up.

I might add that I think Kerry did it for political reasons too.

I will agree it was a shitty war, started by a Democrat nd ended by a Republican but there were other ways he could have worked to end the war without dishonoring his fellow soldiers.

He claims to have been honorably discharged in 1970. He was not. He persued his anti war activites while still being in the Military.

Then he impunes Bush for doing the same things he did like asking for deferments and joining the reserves. He acuses Bush of lying about his service and scrubbing his records while he will not release all of his records.

I can't accept someone like that for president but most people would rather not examine Kerry to close because they hate Bush so much.

I though hate was a bad thing.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:30 PM

I see no dishonor in fighting well and then seeking to end the war. Bush neither fought nor sought to end the war.

Hate is indeed a bad thing.

So is slaughter and wilful mayhem, and the murder of children, such as has been exercised against a lot of innocents in Iraq. Spilling blood is a lousy way to get an idea across.

It tends to make the audience hard of hearing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Chris Green
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:36 PM

Old Guy, maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't see how the actions of either candidate in the 60s and 70s have become the burning issue of the day. Okay, Kerry fought in the Vietnam War and may have attempted to get out for whatever reason (although, unlike Bush he at least went through the proper channels), but what does that have to do with whether he'll make a good President or not? Aren't his current policies and attitudes more important than his antics 30-odd years ago? And isn't the fact that Bush has made a complete pig's arse out of everything he's turned his hand to in the past four years and appears anxious to continue doing the same for the next four a factor in deciding on who to vote for?

I'm not from the US but for Christ's sake, fellas, get this incompetent, dangerous halfwit out of office before he causes any more damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:16 AM

Bazouki:

When someone presents their past as a qualification for the office they are seeking, their past should be evaluated. Furthermore when that person seeks to tear down the military background of the incumbent a comparison is initiated.

Kerry brought it up so he should have to endure the consequences.

Kerry said "BRING IT ON" and it is indeed being brought on at his request.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Chris Green
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:04 AM

I'm not disputing that if Bush is impugned over his military record that he has have a right to compare and contrast his deeds with his competitor. However, I still can't see that it's all that pertinent to the rather more pressing issues that confront the American administration today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

Bazouki:

If it is not important, why does Kerry keep talking about it?

He claims that he is qualified to be the commander in chief because of his military record. His Military record is trumped up bullshit to anybody that studies the facts so his claim is false.

False claims are pertinent.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:05 PM

OG,


Claims by liberals are ALWAYS true- it is only the ones by conservatives that are FALSE. You really need to study more...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:08 PM

[Kerry's] Military record is trumped up bullshit to anybody that studies the facts

"FACTS"? speaking of utter, complete, 14 karat bullshit... do you actually believe the crap you spout, OG? Or are you the living embodiment of Matt Taibbi's thesis? Or can you possibly actually be as ignorant and bigoted as you come across in posts like this one?

Rhetorical questions, I suppose.......

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

I disagree with you, OG -- I think his military record is genuine, but that a bunch of mudslingers have tried as hard as possible to stain it. I believe he actually has a sense of honor not found anywhere in the current Administration. I believe you have been suckered by the Rove machine just as you were about the real and present danger of Iraq.

Sorry, but we have equal and opposite opinions.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM

OG:

You may be getting older than you think!! It was not Kerry, but GW Bush, who said "Bring them o -- "we're plenty tough".

No telling how many died directly because of that attitude.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Roadscholar
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:50 PM

An arrogant asshole indeed...one that is playing a role that he was born to, without ever having had to live the life experiences that would prepare someone for that position.

To whine and have daddy make phone calls so that he could stay stateside and party while other guys his age were facing hell of the highest order shows what a weak little gutless punk the shrub really is. That's not the sort of thing that a man would "grow out of" living the easy sort of life that he has lived.

And this coward has the bald faced gall to cry "bring 'em on" to a bunch of seriously psycho muthas while our guys and gals (the ones who have more cojones than our leader) stand in harms way, at his command.

And he lied and manipulated and rushed to get them there.

(instead of using them to neutralize al-queda, before more people could die by that same hand)

...still can't find that dern bin laden...

...oh yeah, but we have saddam....

(did he attack us on our own soil? no, come to think of it, it was the other one, the one that we did not kill or capture)

And that's all I have to say about that. At the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:13 PM

Greg F.

Give me some of your facts.

Where was Kerry on Christmas eve of 1968?

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared — seared — in me."

Three out of Mr. Kerry's five-man Swift boat crew deny that they or their boat was in Cambodia during Christmas 1968 — the other two refused to comment.

"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."

Johnson was president in December 1968

According to Mr. Brinkley, author of John Kerry's book Tour of Duty, who received his information directly from Mr. Kerry, Mr. Kerry was on patrol in Sa Dec (50 miles from the Cambodian border) on Christmas Eve and spent Christmas day writing journal entries back at his base.

Kerry's journal: "A briefing with the Navy and another refueling and then away again. You have lost half the day just relaxing at Sa Doc, taking in the scene and basking in the security of your thoughts and the memories that today come steadily and quickly. Again you pull away from a pier and you start out on patrol"

Will the real fact stand up?

Kerry aug 19, 2004: "Bring it on,"

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:26 PM

Well, OG, where were you on March 11th 1967 at 2:15 in the afternoon, who were nyou with and what precisely were you all doing?

The one overriding fact is that none of the trash minutia you post- even if true, which is highly suspect- matters one whit as to whether the man served honorably in the Viet Nam war, while Georgie Boy hid behind his old man's influence.

And now, having committed the Taibbian Fallacy myself one too many times, I'm thru with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:32 AM

It strikes me that the adjective (in the title of this thread) is not necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:20 AM

Greg F

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia"

OG did not say he remembered : Kerry did. And he had a journal to refer to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:25 AM

Sick of all the crap. Be glad when it's over for a few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:47 AM

Greg F.

That is a typical Liberal's answer to a typical Kerry conundrum.

If you can't answer it favorably, avoid it, say it does not matter and make an accusation.

I don't know where I was March 11th 1967 at 2:15 in the afternoon or what I was doing. If I was a candidate for the most powerful position in the world I would not have three versions of where I was at and I would not claim to be a hero based on what I was doing then.

Kerry is the creator of this trash. If it were not for his constant yapping about his prowess in Vietnam none of this info would be in existance.

If Kerry has so many versions of where he was at, he is a phony, not worthy of being commander in chief.

Georgie Boy joined the reserves. Kerry joined the reserves. Bush's unit did not get called up so that makes him a coward and Kerry a hero?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:52 AM

Old Guy, I'm pretty sick of you too. Why don't you join or go away? Just why are you here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:42 AM

YES

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM

Because Kerry is an arrogant asshole.

I will be until the election presenting facts about Kerry.

You can always ignore my posts if they start to break through the brainwashing given to you by the Kerry supporters.

Usually anger is the first sign that someone is discovering that they have been duped.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:16 AM

Speaking of being duped, Old Guy, here are some summary facts about your beloved, if slightly cockamamie, Pretnd President:

http://www.monkeydyne.com/bushresume/resume.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:13 PM

I know where Bush was for seven minutes.

He was in a Florida classroom doing NOTHING.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:01 AM

Scorcha:

Try an enema.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:10 AM

Hey:

I thought you said you would be presenting facts, Mister Old Guy, not offering juvenile insights to respected members of the community.

Get it together or keep it at home, huh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Josh
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 03:43 PM

What cut it for me: 68 British troops have died since the start of the war, over a 1,000 American troops are dead. Something isn't right here, is it? American politics never handles foreign issues as well as it could, in my opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:21 PM

Amos:

You can administer the enema.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:12 PM

Insightful, OG. Thanks for contributing to the debate.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM

Amos,

While OG may be off-topic, I think that "I'm pretty sick of you too. Why don't you join or go away? Just why are you here? " was not really on-topic, either- SO WHY DON'T YOU COMMENT ON THAT?


Or do you insist on a two-tiered Mudcat? The Enlightened Liberal Few, and the Despised Conservatives?

Are the liberal ideals you claim to follow really so weak?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:14 AM

OK, I will. I think it was fairly uncouth, but, nevertheless, deserved. Be that as it may, I hadn't really noticed it until you pointed it out to me. My apologies.

Stop throwing your preconceptions at me., They won't stick.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,BabyBeardedBruce
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:31 AM

WAHHH!!!! off-topic-offtopic-offtopic!!everybody hates conservatives!!! WAHHH!!! mean old liberalsmeanoldliberals!!!! BBB hates liberals! they think they're sooooo smart! WAHHHH!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM

OK, let's get back to the toipic. I apologize for departing fromt he theme of this thread.

Bush really and truly is arrogant. And in every sense I know of he is also an asshole.

The first, for example, because he presumes to have no errors despite the trail of blood and destruction he left behind him. The second, for example, because he falsified so many things in speaking to the AMerican public.

See all the .mov links in my thread on "Politics 2004" for supplementary viewpoints about it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:03 PM

Good work, Old Guy

Telling Sorcha to try an enema was riotous!

You might just win the Mudcat Best Guest award!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:08 PM

Without a Doubt demonstrates the issue clearly.

Martin your crudeness is second only to your density.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM

More evidence from the IP distirbution list:

here's an editor at Tor Books, Teresa Nielsen-Hayden, who has a
widely-read weblog, Making Light, found at
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/ (her husband Patrick, also an
editor at Tor, also has an exceptional weblog,
http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/), in which she recently posted a
remarkable piece, "Motivation and Doubt", at
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005631.html making
reference to Suskind's article. I would recommend this piece to anyone
reading IP. Here are a few bits from it which give a flavor of the
piece:

"I arrived at certain theories about George W. Bush by a strange route,
which was thinking about the class of writers who take rejection worst.
I don't mean the ones who're hurt worst; I couldn't possibly judge
that. I'm talking about the ones who react with aggressive denial. And
it seemed to me that the ones I most often saw doing that were
middle-aged white guys with a management background."

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Facts and mechanisms are not the issue. Their relationship with
success is mystical and emotional. Thus, the person who quibbles with
the details of their plan is their enemy rather than their ally. Such
impediments will of course be overcome if the employee correctly
understands and implements the magic PHB force of will. After all,
that's what force of will is there for. In the meantime, by expressing
reservations the employee has potentially weakened the all-important
PHB confidence. That's not being a good employee.

"(Do I need to point out that there's a world of difference between
absolute faith in the success of work you do yourself, and absolute
faith in your own success when your job consists of telling other
people what to do?)"

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"A historical note: The corporation that had the most, and most
fervent, motivational and inspirational corporate-branded pelf I've
ever seen? That would have to be Enron. They were swimming in it –
everything from posters, pens, and t-shirts to Christmas ornaments and
fine cut-crystal tchotchkes. And when Enron went boom, and screwed its
employees six ways from Sunday, you should have seen how fast that
stuff came flying onto eBay. The saddest ones were the employee awards
set with little jewels showing how many years of devoted work they'd
put into the company: Together, we aren't winners."

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"It's not cute, and it's not funny, and it's not religion. George Bush
is running national policy on faith—but it's not faith in God. It's
become something far stranger and more idolatrous.

"What he's put his faith in is George W. Bush, which is not the same
thing as saying he believes in himself. He can't believe in himself; he
knows he doesn't know anything. But instead of seeking more information
and better counsel, he's abandoned the frustrations of dealing with the
factual, external universe. He's now basing everything on the instincts
of George W. Bush. That's where the smirk comes from.

"He's certain he's right. So was every dotcom investor. So is every
blackjack player in Las Vegas."

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

And so on. There is also an extensive comment thread--as Teresa says,
"Note: My readers are the best thing about this weblog. If you're not
reading the comments, you're missing half the fun."

---

Thanks and credit to John Adams.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: vega
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:10 PM

"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, and the tallest guy in the NBA is
Chinese. The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the 3 most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon'.         Need I say more?

Read a story in the Washington post that interview troops stationed in Iraq. Men who are involved in action on a daily basis. They signed up after 9/11 because they felt the war was the right thing to do. But not now. they dont' see any connection between the attack & Iraq. All they see is friends being kills and no end in sight. Iraq's people hate them, the child are scared of them. And they aren't being allowed to do they job the were sent for help secure the country. Bush want to stay the corse - not much of a plan.

Doesn't matter how we got in this mess - what matter is who is going to get us out with least amount of kills.

vega

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:33 PM

I recall a line from a MASH episode in which Col Potter was asked, after a long evening of surgery, "When did the war start for you, Colonel?" Potter replied, "Well, for me it started in 1917 . . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:43 PM

Here is what a Annenberg poll of the American Military says:

"Military personnel and their families overwhelmingly favor President Bush over Sen. John Kerry, a new poll says.

More than two-thirds of service people surveyed by the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Policy Center said they would trust Bush, who served in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War, as their commander-in-chief more than Kerry.

Nearly a quarter of the sample chose Kerry, a Navy commander in Vietnam during the war."
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2849914

Put that in your bong and puff on it.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:32 AM

What's that supposed to mean, Old Guy? That you think those who disapprove of Looney-Boy are on drugs? Out of touch with reality? There are a lot of possible reasons for your statistic, and one of them is bad sampling. Another is that military people are not well equipped to judge the best path for national prosperity or well-being. They would be more inclined, I suppose, to pick someone who was in favor of their specialty, the reality they have been trained in -- namely, overwhelming others by force, killing in large numbers, and steamrolling dissident viewpoints.

We have a military in order to do these things to enemies. Naturally, living their lives in the study of destruction, they would want a leader who would lead them to exerciser those morbid talents.

There's a LOT more to the nation than the military though, so I have no idea what your statistic means in context. Except that the intelligence of the military is depressed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:08 AM

They signed up after 9/11 because they felt the war was the right thing to do. But not now
The Annenburg poll disproves this.

Amos:

So military people are stupid now? If the stats don't jive with your dogma it must be wrong? However if any poll whatsoever shows Kerry 1 point ahead of Bush, trumpets blare.

Kerry supporters are either hittin' the old wacky terbacky or drinking Kerry Kool Aid. Something has their brain seized up.

Actually it is a modernized version of "put that in your pipe and smoke it".

The intelligence of the military is depressed and the inteligence of Kerry supporters is superior? Whatever you say Amos, you are smarter than me. I need you to keep me straight.

I explained that everybody I know is for Bush, even my lifelong born and raised Democrat wife, and I can't imagine why people would want to vote for a Phony.

Maybe Bush is not the greatist but he is human and I like him. He is not a Phony.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:20 AM

I am grudgingly willing to admit that you are right about that last point -- it is clear that you like him. It is arguable that he is human.

But he is a decrepit, low-grade, poor-minded kind of human, who doesn't have the character to be called a President in my view. As for phony, I suggest you weigh the false reports of the two gentleman side by side. I think you'll find that Bush has lied more vociferously, about more things, than John Kerry has.

You don't need me to keep you smart, though, OG!! You've shown over and over that you are smart...about most things, anyway.

Just not in this case.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:37 AM

Thanks for the compliment Amos. I got to go to bed now, I am worn out from all of this fun.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:38 AM

"So military people are stupid now?"

Amos didn't say that and I don't think Amos meant that. From my experience in the army, the military has a culture of its own, and it's not a democracy, for one thing. (No more than a corporation is a democracy.) This culture affects their viewpoint; why wouldn't it?

Army culture is very like the culture of a univerity, which is pretty insular too, though not as overtly autocratic.The army has Officers and Men, the University has Faculty and Staff. This culture affects their viewpoint; why wouldn't it?

The military solve things by force; universities have seminars and workshops. Force doesn't always work and seminars don't always work.

There are still some counter-culturists around, but love doesn't always work either. It's worth trying, though.

And so on.

None of them necessarily have a balanced view of the world, nor do any of us. Some do better than others; I think that 'enlightenment' is the ability to think outside your culture.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:40 AM

Clint,

A very good post. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:32 PM

Searching for enlightenment.

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

Old guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM

Bush is both arrogant and an asshole. But that's enough of this.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:08 PM

Amos declares Victory. Long may he reign.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:19 PM

That old black magic has Amos in it's spell.-
That old black Magic that Kerry weaves so well.
Those icy fingers up and down his spine.
The same old witchcraft that makes his eyes go blind.
The same old tingle that he feels inside
whenever the polls start to rise
and down and down he goes
round and round he goes
like a leaf
that's caught in a tide
He could stay away but what can he do?
He hears Kerry's name
and he's all aflame
Aflame with such blind desire
In a spin, loving the spin he's in
Under that old black magic called Kerry!

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 12:55 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 03:18 PM

Hey, it worked for Loony Boy!!! 'Course my version didn't cost ten million dollars.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:21 AM

"Searching for enlightenment" eh, Old Guy?

I don't know for sure what enlightenment is, but I know for sure that mocking at what you don't understand is a characteristic of the unenlightened.
____

enlighten
1. To give spiritual or intellectual insight to.
2. To give information to; inform or instruct.
____

Who but a fool would choose to remain ignorant rather than become enlightened?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 01:19 PM

True feelings get revealed in this Quicktime movie of the President being himself. (Requires Quicktime, obviously).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 01:26 PM

The Berkshire Eagle's feelings:

Not wishing to call attention to its abysmal record of failure at home and abroad, the Bush administration's campaign strategy has been to prey on America's fears of the world and of change. America has long been a source of hope to the world, and if it is once again, it will find that it has allies in the hard fight against the forces of terror. A Kerry administration would give us a proud America untainted by the arrogance of the Bush White House.

There is no underestimating the importance of this election, given what President Bush has put America through for four years and the perils that lie ahead in a second Bush administration. John Kerry will restore America to the right track, domestically and internationally, and The Eagle endorses him for president of the United States.

---

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 03:53 PM

Does anyone have hard data to do with the pending election?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 06:18 PM

nice video! He must have practiced that for his U.N. appearance!

it's here, also http://static.vidvote.com/movies/bushuncensored.mov

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 07:07 PM

Yes, Democrats 3 Republicans 0

3 Democrats seen on TV stealing Bush Cheney signs

Arnie

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 04:20 PM

Asshole song about Bush

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM

Last night Jay Leno asked the audience if they were familiar with 'freudian slip'? Then he showed a clip of Bush working a crowd. Bush says, 'The Iraqi insurgents want us to leave Iraq. They know they would be better off if we leave. I agree. The world would be better off if we leave. Uh, uh, I mean, the world would NOT be better off if we leave.'

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 04:47 PM

According to today's news Osama Bin Laden agrees that Bush is an asshole. I don't know whether this means we should vote for him or note, but I have many other reasons for wanting him out of office.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Arfie
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:53 AM

A vote for Kerry is a vote for Osama.

Arf Arf

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:35 AM

Well apparently McCain says Osama is proof we should vote for Bush. All I cans ay is I ain't a gonna do it. I have my standards and voting for that low-life double-faced, twisty-tongued cross-eyed sonofabush is below them.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM

Osama is proof that some mammals should eat their young. Lots like Bush in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: pdq
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM

...well, let's see...

George W. Bush is an arrogant asshole
Franklin D. Roosevelt was a arrogant asshole
Woodrow Wilson was an arrogant asshole
Abraham Lincoln was an arrogant asshole
Andrew Jackson was an arrogant asshole

...just think of this as a Rorschach test in "pattern recognition"...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush is an arrogant asshole.
From: GUEST,Young Guy
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:57 AM

"Americans of Mideast descent for Bush again"
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/1031phares1031.html