BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat

Subject: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:43 AM

I saw this on the Sojorners website. It really rang true with me and helped me with an issue of faith and fear that has been bothering me quite a bit. I sent them a donation by credit card. It the only political ad this year I could support in conscience.

Thank God for Jim Wallis.

The petition

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:48 AM

THANK YOU, JtS...that is a wonderful document!

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 03:29 AM

WOW! There is hope!

d

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:44 AM

Here's a link to the Sojourners site itself, - with an interesting article about Bruce Springsteen among other stuff. And a video of Jim Wallis talking to a conference (sound quality isn't great, but the content makes up for that.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:01 AM

I've been following Sojo for a few years, usually online though another in the family subscribes or gets it passed around. The regular emailings are worth getting. My only complaint is the very USA oriented slant, but that's excusable considering its source and its issues, never mind the importance of what the USA is doing on an international level. I don't always agree with Sojo, but I agree that Sojo is one of the few places where CONSIDERED opinion rules.

It's a good read. Subscribe to the emailings.

Fwiw, I sincerely believe that the Shrub uses Christianity as a handle rather than a belief, and that he doesn't get the difference in his arrogant malevolence. The inclination among too may voters to treat the president as a deity only encourages his delusion.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:30 PM

Jim Wallis is a breath of fresh air in a polluted political environment.
Hope is on the way.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:33 PM

In the second debate, when he was answering the abortion question, Bush did something for his evangelical "base" that I was looking for and I have seen him do before.

Have you seen that picture of him with the yellow halo? Head slight bowed down, microphone between his hands fingers straight as in Christian prayer?

For half a second he posed like that.

I tend to put him more in the category of "False Prophet" than sincere Christian. In fact I don't believe he is humble in his "faith" at all, and a Christain is. Maybe he just doesn't understand. Maybe he just learned enough Christainity to get by as he did with his MBA. He isn't intellectually curious. In any case, what I see from him is not very Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:51 PM

Well, for that matter, "god" is neither a Christan or a Muslim- which is something the "christians" like Bush and Ashcroft, et.al., need pounded into their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:59 PM

This will just curl your hair as an example of evil, manipulative blackmail: the Catholic Church has just excommunicated John Kerry and will probably include all pro-choice Democratic Party Catholics.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=32830

The offical Vatican announcement is on the right side of this page:

http://www.defide.com/

The key parts are at the end of it.

This disgusting act is based purely on power. Perhaps Kerry should have gone after little boys instead: that act would have been covered up.

Please remember that Kerry's perspective on abortion was that he was personally against it, but felt he could not impose his views on others who do not share them.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:32 PM

The question then is "Why does the Vatican want Bush elected?" This could have happened on November 4, 2004. Timing is everything, dontcha think?

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:43 PM

(Blush.) The story turns out to be a maybe -- wait for verification from the mainstream media before passing it on, please. My unimpeachable source got it from the two sources that I linked above, but it turns out they may not be that reliable.

Sorry I jumped the gun.

But if it is true, yes, the timing IS the message.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM

"...the Catholic Church has just excommunicated John Kerry" - no it hasn't, and the contents of that link don't actually say that.

It's a partisan spin on a canon lawyer's interpretation of a more general position, and of the applicability of it in a particular case. No Bell, Book and Candle.

The truth is, the Catholic Church is a lot less monolithic than people imagine.

Kerry's position, as I understand it, is that while he believes that abortion is wrong, and that a choice to abort is a wrong choice, the constitutional position in the United States is that there is such a choice, and this should be respected. And that is a position which is perfectly consistent with Catholic teaching.

There's a quote Jim Wallis in an article, tucked away inside that Sojourners link up the thread, which strikes me as relevant here (and don't anyone go pointing out Jim Wallis isn't a Catholic, because I know that):

"I have clearly disagreed with the Democrats on abortion, believing that Christians can be both "progressive and pro-life." I've urged the Democrats to be much more respectful and welcoming of "pro-life Democrats."

"Someday, a smart Democrat will figure out how both pro-choice and pro-life people could join together in concrete measures to dramatically reduce the abortion rate by focusing on teen pregnancy, adoption reform, and real support for low-income women. That would be so much better than both sides just using the issue as a political football and political litmus test during elections, and then doing little about it afterwards."

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM

Can't open the pdf of the first link? It hangs me up?

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:25 PM

Try this Mrrzy

http://go.sojo.net/campaign/takebackourfaith

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:55 PM

McGrath, you do realize that that canon lawyer has or is suing Kerry for heresy?

(That makes me laugh uncontrollably, except it isn't actually funny.)

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: red_clay
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:56 PM

No...He is not and thankfully so! but He does decide who is elected through christians prayers and has done so since the beginning of time!
from genisis to revelation,God and only God,chose the leader of every nation and did so by the prayers of his children!
if you do not believe this,read the Bible and see for yourself!
or,if you are too lazy or think that it's a fairy tale,then God will show you the truth at the great judgement day! i'd rather know now,because if you wait until then,it will be too late for all you doubters!

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:00 PM

Where are you GUEST, Old Guy? Tell us why the document is wrong. Produce hundreds of links to prove it, that we will never have the chance to look up.

Where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:09 PM

red clay....you will find that many people on here are not Christian and follow their own belief...whatever it is....reading the Bible may be totally alien to them and they have no recognition of your truth of 2004 years of what you believe. Yes if they read and studied the Bible then maybe they would learn something..... but..............
Best wishes,

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:16 PM

There's a Spanish proverb I like, which somehow seems appropriate: "God writes straight with crooked lines."

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:25 PM

McGrath, Democrats are most often supporting all sorts of proven effective sex education and birth control programs that could obviate the need for many or most abortions. It is the organizations who call themselves "pro-life" (which is not actually the case for most of them) who OPPOSE these programs. The REAL agenda of those who call themselves "pro-life" is the reduction of the number of sex acts, and the control of women. I don't think Democrats have systematically pushed away those who call themselves "pro-life," but rather they have pushed themselves away with their rigidity.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:01 PM

Take it up with Jim Wallis maybe? I don't think he was talking there about those kind of organisations, but rather about people who see all types of legalised killing as having something in common.

It has seemed to me that, in discussions about this on the Mudcat, some people have seemed to see the economic pressures on women to have abortions as somehow inevitable, rather than as constituting a direct assault on freedom of choice.

Fighting for changes that reduce those kind of pressures is the kind of thing on which people anyone who are genuinely pro-chopice, and people who are genuinely pro-life ought surely to be as one. As Jim Wallis advocates in that article.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:40 PM

Dear Gawd,

Spare me from nutballs high and low, and let me not be unto others a nutball myself. Thank you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: jaze
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:53 PM

The Catholic Church is in enough trouble right now with the priest problem. Excommunicating John Kerry right now would cause it to lose thousands and thousands of the faithful it can't afford to lose. The "Texas Righties" and other conservatives seem to have forgotten the principle of separation of church and state. Kerry is not running as a Catholic, he just happens to be Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:12 PM

I'm not sure what you are saying but I agree with Magrath and Jim Wallis. The best way to be anti abortion is to educate young women, to preventy pregnancy and to care for young women who want to carry to term.

I'm against abortion as birth control but I'm also against unwanted babies to illequiped and unsupported women.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:21 PM

God is Green...

Peace.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:34 PM

For those who are old enough to remember, JFK promised the people that Catholic dogma would play no part in the decisions he made as president. If he wasn't a heretic, then neither is Kerry.

I suspect the issue really represents the fact that the Vatican is dismayed that a good plurality, perhaps a majority, of western Catholics are opposed to a doctrine it refuses to reconsider.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:44 PM

Maybe its overcompensation for the abuse scandals.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: red_clay
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:52 PM

Pardon me Jaze,but you are contradicting the LEFTIES!!!...you say that the TEXAS RIGHTIES are forgetting about seperation of Church and State! then please tell me why KERRY and EDWARDS are sucking up to Black voters in the south by ATTENDING their services every sunday,recently???

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:52 PM

So, red_clay, you're saying that Bill Clinton was appointed to the presidency of the United States by God, through the prayers of Christians in the US. Ok. Works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: red_clay
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:00 PM

no CarolC...thru the LACK of christians praying for leadership!...as also in the biblical times!God does not take christians for granted! if God loving-fearing christians want something,they had better pray in ernest and,as the scriptures say,without ceasing!

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:20 PM

Red Clay,

You do not understand the concept of the seperation of Church and state. Here is a tip. Don't go to your preacher for constitutional advice. Don't go to your political leaders for religion.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesars.

Here's another tip. Don't trust George W. Bush. He is a madman and he is a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:39 PM

So let me see if I'm reading you correctly, red_clay. You're saying that if a US president gets elected of whom you approve, he or she has been appointed by God through the prayers of US Christians. If a US president of whom you don't approve gets elected, he or she was appointed by God because US Christians didn't pray hard enough or properly.

I guess you've got it all neatly sewn up, there, red_clay. So how do you figure it when a president gets elected who is approved of by some Christians but not others?

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:44 PM

Red Clay:

Here's another: don't proselytize you stuff on this forum. Keep your faith, keep it happy and keep it to yourself.

It makes the locals rise up and assert the difference between dogma and communication with a vengeance.

You would not want to read what happens.

A

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:06 PM

Uh, God told me not to get involved with this thread anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:54 PM

Did anyone notice that Red Clay also mentioned Kerry and Edwards "sucking up to black voters"?

Why is it that people have to be the whole hog stereotype? Why couldn't Red Clay not have been racist, just for the sheer refreshment of it?

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 12:48 AM

God is most definately a socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:24 AM

I'm really glad that I didn't grow up with an angry God.

d

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: GUEST,longpecker redneck
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:02 AM

I have just started using this site in the vain hope that it might contain what it professes to do - that is a forum for stuff about music.So far all I have found is post after post and thread after thread of self opiniated assholes spouting there half formed ideas/arguments on everything under the sun except what true lovers of music, like me, are searching for.

There are plenty of political parties for people like this to join and air their ideas Why dont they go and do this and leave this site to proper music lovers to enjoy.We don't want to have this political crap shoved at us on every opportunity, lets get on with the music and enjoy ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:38 AM

Go to the top of the page, longpecker and you will see that the enormous majority of threads on the Mudcat are music related, as has always been the case. The only reason you are down at this tail-end of the page is because you decided to open up one of the minority of threads which are not primarily music-related.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: jaze
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 07:08 AM

Um, red clay, there's a big difference between attending (or sucking up as you say) a black church service and trying to change the constitution to please the narrow-minded , bigoted religious right.

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: red_clay
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:54 AM

AMOS...u r a typlical "leftie"! you want me to only talk about what you approve! well forget it jerk! this is an open forum and i'll talk about whatever i want to talk about!
of course,you are welcome to do the same!
by the way,do you own this operation?
as far as i know,you do not!

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: red_clay
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 10:58 AM

one other thingy,amos...you "libbies" in here seem to hate religion or any referenceto God Almighty,but you PREACH to us all the time what is right and wrong,as far as YOU see it!
get a life!!!

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: red_clay
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:01 AM

ha ha jaze!!! you are totally OUT OF TOUCH with the real world! you should get a life,too!

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: GUEST,Dr.Quelch
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:16 AM

When Jesus was alive, two thousand years ago.
He always voted Democrat and Jesus ought to know!

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:18 AM

Jesus fucking Christ, red-clay, get it straight before you start shooting.

I was offering some advice about the dynamics on this forum -- the people here, taken as a whole, do not like being told what God says,preferring to sort such matters out for themselves.

Never mind. Shoot your focking mouth off, wise-ass, and see if it makes you any friends. Around these parts, friendships and hyuman courtesy count for something, but if you want to come in here and start throwing crap around the first day out of the box, demonstrating both your ignorance and your barbarian tendencies, feel free, say what you like. I wish you the joy of it.

Whatever the fight is that you are stuck in, and however long ago it occurred, I also wish you freedom from it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:22 AM

I am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before me.

These words make clear he is neither republican nor democrat. He is a dyed in the wool monarchist.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 12:49 PM

You at all interested in music, red clay?

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: red_clay
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:58 PM

wow amos!!! little hot-headed ,aren't you?go take a shower! cool off!
geeezzzzsh! what a temper!!!typlical "libbie" though!hahahahahaha

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:10 PM

Glad to see you are taking my advise about shooting your mouth off pal. Obviously you come from an environment which cultivates rude playground-style behaviour, where growing up is frowned upon.

I look forward to hearing you have moved.


A

Subject: RE: BS: God is Neither a Republican nor Democrat
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:28 PM

And by the way, don't take this personally. I have a personal mission to oppose stupidity and small-mindedness whereever I encounter it. That's why I am always ducking into phone booths.


A