Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?

Subject: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:02 AM

Hi folks - I have been doing the sad nerd thing for a day and changed my site's JavaScript. Prompted by a request (can't find it again). Previously it was suggested that I extend my "day of month" page - eg "third Sunday" "fouth and last Monday" etc which is fine in priciple but not that easy and fatal if the JavaScript doesn't work on machines (without a lot of forethought and help)

Sooooooo I arrived at a halfway house of having a floating "fillip" that says what today is (in 1st 2nd etc nomenclature).

I have sorted a downer with Netscape 4.5 (V2.1 live tonight) and IE5.5 and 6.0 work as intended. Firefox ignores it completely even if I force it to treat Firefox as IE or Netscape. (it reports it is Netsacpe 5)

Would anyone with other Browsers like to have a look and see if they can see a floating carousel of text and if the Flash sites' hyperlink pop-up a bit of text on "hovver". On the subject of Flash or do they just say "flash" or nothing? Eg Netscape 5 or 6 (or 7?) IE 3?

TIA

I can pay in hyperlinks to your site. see cresby.com

Meanwhile the nerd in me is off to http://www.tek-tips.com and the Firefox apology site.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:34 AM

Hope you take this response in the light it is intended, not as an attack.

I used
MSIE Version 6.0.2800.110615
Update Versions SP1; q313829;

You have good information content, but I probably would not want to visit your site if I could get the same info elsewhere.

The annoying little whirligig thingie slides down the page, it's anchored to the visible window, not the displayed page. It also chases the damn cursor around too - Come Back Neko! All is Forgiven!
This is annoying, and highly distracting if what you want is an 'Info Page' - like those damn backgrounds that float like this too --- combined with the 'hundreds of colours' visual effect, this is how my head feels...
:-)

Please, please, please, lose that...

I despise Flash, but tolerate it because sometimes, a site is simply not visible without it, but then I have two eyes in reasonable working condition, and am not technically visually impaired.

You have too many colours, and many weird text/background contrast combinations that are difficult enough for me, (and I did years of theatre lighting!!!) so doubtless would be impossible for those with visual impairments.

Overall, the page is visually cluttered and far 'too busy'. A bit more spacing of some things might help - it's difficult visually to 'sort' the info into logical chunks to find particular related things.

Like the guide line of only using a couple of fonts per page, using more than 3 or 4 colours (in large blocks) per page lowers the readability of the page. To a slightly lesser degree, using many colours for the text does this too. When you have lots of differing combinations of text/background colour combinations, visual fatigue occurs. But then some colourblind viewers will not see things the way you intend either - some combinations will be invisible.

You have quite a dark shade for the overall background, and some of the boxes are lighter shades, while other boxes are much darker, this is very visually disturbing.

Rather than the purple background in some boxes to denote Flash Sites - use an icon of some sort (a ball, or other symbol, or even just a red Bold text F, say) to denote them, this will clear up some of your colour excesses.

You've got too many disparate things jumbled together - perhaps put your lists on a separate page, but you have info, notices, warnings, and different types of sites all mixed (visually especially) together - eg, the 'magazines' links should be in a separate table for a start, not tacked onto the bottom of the previous stuff - also give it a centred heading 'Magazines' in a larger font size than the text size of the contents to give better visual acuity.

The 'folk sites' seem to be some of 'regular events', and some of 'general folk sites', probably some have words and tunes, but you would never guess without visiting them all.

As I said, I like the content, but I would prefer to visit a site that had the same info sorted more logically.

With a little work, you can make it a very good site.

You can see several different themes and styles of page designs on my site - see my Mudcat Profile - all are very readable.


Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:43 AM

I use Opera 7.03 with Java Runtime 1.4.

Not too sure of your questions, however hovering over a Link gave quite lucid details of the link. Not sure what you meant by 'carousel'. If you mean 'merry-go-round' I couldn't see one.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:06 AM

Some things I missed...

Mr Red is not invisible to me... :-)

My comments are mostly about just the front page - that should be enough to give you the idea.

The top of the page is tangled - the 'flags section' is all mungled up visually with the title of the page.

The 'title=' attribute was described (in HTMLv3) as a little used and little supported attribute to give the links a bit of text that (in IE) automatically pops up when you put the mouse over it. I don't know if it is now part of the standard for the current version of HTML.

But you don't seem to have done it on every link. It's nice - like the 'alt=' tag for images (which I like to use and it helps the visually impaired, especially if the page is viewed without images), but I am not sure how all text reader/speaker SW will handle the 'title=' attribute.

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Nick
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:17 PM

Thankfully Netscape 7 doesn't show the twirly thing that I see in Internet Explorer 6 which might get a tad irritating. (It reminded me of the Atomic Kitten site which had a similar thing that followed your cursor round - I guess it depends who you see your audience as -great for the first five seconds) But then only 8 people in the world use Netscape 7 and they only do it for testing purposes in case one of their friends happens to use it

Can't help but agree that the content on your site means I will return to it if I need info for certain things in certain parts of the country (it was useful when I went down to Oxfordshire and I thank you for posting the link on the thread) but the gimmicky bits lose me.

But then our websites are a reflection of the people we see ourselves as aren't they? I'm sure you're boouncier than me :) LOL

Nick
Staid 50 year old

(So what was he doing on the Atomic Kitten site? Blame the sons)

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:37 PM

Foolestroupe - yea some people key into colours as a way of relating information - some don't see the logic in the order and some webmasters are not 100% consistent. Function before form though.

The whirling thing you either love or hate but It is not essential and doesn't work on some browsers so I may put it on the notso noticeable status bar as previously. And then people will ask me - why don't you tell us what day of the month it is. You honestly can't win but I have had fun for a day on the whirlygig.

I was asked to hghliht all "todays" entries - I can imagine doing it but it sort of states categorically - believe me information is not that dependable - it can change overnight.

Clinton Hammond suggested (by inference) I install Flash and switch it off as a way of detecting Flash sites. Hmmmmmm.

The alternative titles that John in Brisbane - (G'day mate) work on Firefoxe (Netscape 5) but not on Netscape 4.5. If an image fails to load you get the alternative title - hence the wording.

Thanks folks and any others who take a look but I think I think again - tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:10 PM

Two of these normally display Flash. None did. Some I've never checked for flash.

Opera 7.23
Epiphany 1.0.7
Mozilla 1.6
Konqueror 3.2.1
Firefox 0.9.1

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:20 PM

Test Web Pages With Multiple Browser Versions

Browser Archive at Evolt.org.

Netscape keeps copies of its older versions and you can still download those to use for testing.

Hope these help.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:39 PM

Textual skewed to the left

ALL pictorial skrewed to the leg.

Sincerly,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:03 PM

I should add that the site looked normal, except for Flash, on all except Epiphany, which lost the BG color.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:49 PM

OK I have changed the whole moving wotsit.
AND I have maid the alt text work on Netscape. And tried a few HTML checking sites to see if it improves the HTML handling. Not sure about the compacting in Opera but I have tried a few size imperatives rather than leave it to the browser.

Thanx again. I will digest the latest posts offline.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:34 PM

One very useful hint is to always use the image size specifiers (Height & width) on all images - it means the page can allocate the space as it goes which is faster. You have seen those pages jumping all over the place as images get loaded - well this technique stops that, apart from also allowing you to 'stretch or compress'.

This may also assist visually impaired users too: if the page is not 'stable' as it loads teh images, it may cause them hassles, I dont really know.

I recommend that you use the actual size image 1:1 though, as sending a large image that you compress wastes bandwidth, and stretching an image may make it look strange.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: open mike
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:29 AM

with fire fox i see no animated figure..
and the page is too wide to view on the
monitor without scrolling over ..the
names of the last 3 flags on teh right are hidden beyond
the margin, as are the column of color code lists.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:45 AM

yea some checker sites recommend specifying sizes of images even if 1:1 is implied - the flags should be made smaller anyway but load time was quoted as 10 seconds at 33K-56K which is acceptable.
Alt / Title. Firefox ignores Alt in "<a href=" links but Title works in Ff/IE (Ff has ditched legacy functionality!). The non-visible Alt text has been Java'd in Netscape now.

open mike Animated figure was withdrawn (under fire) but it showed me how to "captureEvents" so not all wasted. Did the status bar (Bottom LH corner) blink at you with the day of month? The width will be reduced as sections are more clearly delineated.
As for the colour coding - apart from ditching non-pastel shades they stay - I personally don't like a white screen. (Ooops no offence Max/Joe).

A moot point Foolestrop - (no I wasn't stung in any way, shape or form wotsoever) but if you could "find a site with the same information" you would find a webmeister who had thought beyond the visual (aka eye candy) - content is king - otherwise why do it? I can point to dozens of sites that were started with an idea of "new toy" and filled with sketchy info and sit there for all the world looking categorical and fresh but I know they haven't been altered for 5 years - or don't exist anymore despite links from unaltered sites. The webmeisters don't understand the logistics (let alone the mindset and work) and all too often the technology held by the average user . Hence Flash sites that take 5 minutes to load and do little more than 20 lines of JavaScript can - which is way beyond them.
I ask for feedback and get it (which is uncomfortable sometimes). At least my celeverness is subtle now - which puts it in the category of smart - two gold stars and one Brownie point please.

And another one for having soooooooooooooo many off-site links on the homepage - it improves search engine ratings - don't ya know.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 06:49 AM

Until the search engines decide they will ignore that 'trick', as they have so many others - and it makes for a messy front page many people (including me) think.

All my comments were not intended to be nasty, but helpful.

You're right you know - just putting the page up in the first place is a doddle compared to keeping it going...

Learning is a slow process, hopefully no more painful than it has to be... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 06:52 AM

found a useful HTML validator site at http://www.htmlvalidator.com/lite/ which gives on-line checking and there is a download Freeware version. also http://validator.w3.org/ does same and says marginally different things.

they report tangled tags (so much for dreamweaver!!!)

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:22 PM

Good place Mr. Red

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: fiddler
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:51 AM

Hi MR,

Be wary of HTML checkers and be wary of wsywig products - such as dreamweaver.

Learn how to code - different products will givce different results, all a right and none are wrong. There are 1001 ways to do everything on the web!

If it works OK and as you have requested cross browser great - the only but is the site does not look to special needs friendly check it against Bobby or one of the other special needs checkers they are free I think. Even they give reams of useless bumph in reply rather than just yeah its ok but look at line 57! So once more be circumspect!

CU next year somewhere I imagine.

Andy

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Edain
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:06 AM

As no on has it yet I used the latest version of Avant and all seemed well

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:41 AM

Thanks again folks.

I found Dreamweaver (Ver 3) did a naughty. I hyperlink over image & text (flags) in a table and right justify the flag/text. When you look at how Dreamweaver did it you find the <DIV> tag - this is all about layers and it is not surprising some browsers locate the layer on the left - I assume this is the scrunching reported.

I have removed all the <DIV> tags and put the flags in their own table inside one cell of an outer tabel. I trust this has removed the scrunching error. any more feedback Gargoyle?

Edain - did you get the day of month message in the status bar?

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:37 PM

The DIV tag seemed to be a good thing at first, but the number of pages I have looked at that are over-endowed with them (usually generated pages), are turning me against it.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:23 AM

hopefully to close the issue of deprecated tags and JavaScript methods. The aim is to address old browsers near equally. The legacy browsers haven't studied the deprection theories.

I have been even busier - having just installed Dreamweaver MX which tells me so much more about compatibilities, and it can debug JavaScript. Curiously it recommends load times of less than 8 seconds or surfers will wander. I bet it is more mute in the Flash developer's help files on this little gem. AND it informs me I should use &ccedil; instead of ç but refuses to save changes I make in plain text of hyperlinks!!!! Go figure.

A real crazy anomaly with all browser I try is that in JavaScript when looking at the visible text of hyperlinks it only sees the last line of text spread over several lines by the browser itself - (eg non full screen browser windows) hence my # symbol is both front and back of the text.

Another addition to functionality on my site is the hyperlink "today" in the day-ordered lists. This is my compromise to the suggestion that I highlight "today's" venues. Being done in JavaScript - if JavaScript fails or is switched off then all data are preserved and only that link is dysfunctional.

Anyway if anyone still has the curiosity/stamina I still welcome brickbats - thougfh I reserve the right to duck.......

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:45 PM

Quack!

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:29 PM

Lists and Listing Sites have no discernable order.
Dislike red-colored text.
Prints well since the background colors are removed by when I print.

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:38 AM

Looked good to me: but I note that there have been changes since original posts. It looked like a bog-standard HTML site, tho': not sign of any Flash whatsoever: no carousels or moving anythings (which is A Good Thing as others have noted). I am in awe of anyone who puts together such a comprehenive site as this. Well done!

Oh, your kind offer af a reciprocal link appreciated: to http://www.lombardy.clara.net - cheers!

Subject: RE: Tech: How do various browsers handle my site?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

Some of the frippery has been removed under fire!!!

Listing sites are positioned vaguely geographically adjacent in the table but there is no way to be rigid short of duplication. My own lists are days and counties (plus town name sort within the latter). I can't think of a better order. The home page is just a junction for all my own lists. I guess the colour code is wasted if it doesn't represent order. As I keep saying - the content is paramount, the presentation is second and the colours are way behind that but serve to disect what is a morass.

I have just done a few more colour changes to show where days &/or counties change from row to row (sessions only but the idea may spread)

http://www.lombardy.clara.net I will have a look (done) and digest (burp). Thanks for the accolade. Don't believe my data without circumspection - that's why I put update dates on the entries