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Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04

Amos 23 Oct 04 - 02:55 AM
Big Tim 23 Oct 04 - 04:19 AM
breezy 23 Oct 04 - 08:35 AM
Big Tim 23 Oct 04 - 10:40 AM
Amos 23 Oct 04 - 01:02 PM
breezy 23 Oct 04 - 01:28 PM
Big Tim 23 Oct 04 - 02:43 PM
frogprince 23 Oct 04 - 03:00 PM
Little Hawk 23 Oct 04 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,woodsie 23 Oct 04 - 07:29 PM
Little Hawk 23 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 23 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM
Bobert 23 Oct 04 - 11:27 PM
Amos 23 Oct 04 - 11:39 PM
frogprince 23 Oct 04 - 11:47 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 04 - 12:14 AM
Terry K 24 Oct 04 - 04:35 AM
breezy 24 Oct 04 - 10:12 AM
Amos 24 Oct 04 - 11:02 AM
Big Tim 24 Oct 04 - 11:02 AM
frogprince 24 Oct 04 - 11:03 AM
Little Hawk 24 Oct 04 - 06:40 PM
frogprince 24 Oct 04 - 06:52 PM
Big Tim 25 Oct 04 - 08:23 AM
Pied Piper 25 Oct 04 - 08:29 AM
Peter T. 25 Oct 04 - 08:33 AM
Terry K 25 Oct 04 - 11:09 AM
Chris in Wheaton 25 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM
Little Hawk 25 Oct 04 - 11:35 AM
Amos 25 Oct 04 - 11:53 AM
Peter T. 25 Oct 04 - 04:29 PM
PoppaGator 25 Oct 04 - 05:39 PM
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Subject: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:55 AM

Bob Dylan played in San Diego for two hours last night. Backed by two eighteen-wheelers worth of gear, a full metal band, he stood behind the electric keyboard and croaked his lines into the mic. His voice was strained, grating, broken -- a collision between old sand and a rusty tin roof in a dry wind. A bullfrog chewing gravel and shouting. He sounded as though he were speaking Estonian after an exhausting long night in a damp cold forest.

He was backed by brilliant guitar players -- several -- and an enthusiastic drummer who played with skill, speed, volume and all the oomph of a major rock band.

He contributed, himself, the keyboard punctuation, the occasional harp solo, and the...strange Ukrainian-sounding vocals.

Every now and then, through the coarse scraping of rocks and steel, he would hit a note that might be deemed musical and the old Dylan would shine through. Once in a while a section of the lyrics were intelligible and the magic of his phrases would restore your spirits.

For the most part, though, I heard deep and long fatigue supported by loud electrical sound, unforgiving drums, and brilliant lyrics only intermittently escaping to remind us of a poet we once knew.

Amos Jessup
San Diego


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:19 AM

He's been like that for years, but I keep going back.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: breezy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 08:35 AM

What a waste of admission money.

I went to 2 early concerts in England back in 65/6 to see what the fuss was about.Never again.

people attend his performances when all the while as a performer he sucks and mugs still go to see him.

What a sad reflection.

All his best work should be left to others to perform because if it wasnt for the likes of Peter Paul and Mary he would never have gotten known over here.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:40 AM

Yor're quite entitled to your opinion breezy, of course.

However, it's the opinion of others, and I am one, who firmly believe that Dylan is not just the writer but also the voice of the century.
I've seen him live, in Britain and in America, in every decade since the 60s and have enjoyed each performance, in different ways.

We're not being conned. We have a choice.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:02 PM

Big Tim:

Well said. The greatest sadness about the evening is that he was still, within, the lost and angelic poet of the generation. But his voice was being carried by amps and truckloads of equipment, and the only acoustic guitar in sight was being played by a back up; the words could not be heard and when they were, they sounded alien, as though Jebba the Hutt was singing a hymn.

I enjoyed his postures on the stage -- they showed a little of the original spark.    I don't feel defrauded, just sorry to see my best poet fade into this machinery.

A


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: breezy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:28 PM

Some are well past their sell by date, and he was at that point decades ago.

He dont need all that backup only to cover up.

Its the singer and a song in my view, and if they dont come across then its wasted effort all round, the rest is crass commercialism and shallow meaningless dross as an alternative and those who pay homage to it are blind, possibly stupid and have been sucked in so far as they cant see their way out.

Give yourself a night with Duncan Mcfarlane either solo or with his band and he'll knock Dylan into touch.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:43 PM

Honest breezy, I don't think this is the place for being anti-Bob.

I hope Duncan McFarlane is as good, or better than, Dylan. Somehow, I doubt it.

"Time will tell, who has fell, and who's been left behind,

You go your way, and I'll go mine".                              

(Bob Dylan,'66).


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:00 PM

Dylan is about those lyrics; some of them come with fine enough melodies, but at root it's all about the lyrics. How can he not know that, for years now, he has performed with only a fraction of his lyrics intelligible? And if it's a deliberate choice, what is that saying to the paying audience? I'll stay home, and play the early albums and "Blood On The Tracks".


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:44 PM

Bob's voice is just about gone. Too bad. It was quite powerful and effective through the 80's and much of the 90's, as can easily be confirmed by listening to any number of bootleg concert recordings from those years, but all those cigarettes, whisky, and passing years have taken their toll. His writing is still great, as I can attest from reading his current book, "Chronicles". If I was Bob, I would retire from singing altogether at this point and write. Of course if I was Bob I would never have smoked a single cigarette either...and that might in itself have kept the voice right in trim.

As far as the "unintelligable lyrics" go...I have been fortunate enough to see him in concert many times and not yet have seen a show where the lyrics were not clear enough for me. Maybe that's because I know them all by heart, or maybe it's just that "I can't help it if I'm lucky...".

It was lovely, Breezy, to get to know Bob back in the very early 60's courtesy of Peter, Paul, and Mary...but when you finally heard Bob himself sing the songs and drew comparisons...Peter, Paul, and Mary sounded about as exciting as oatmeal...albeit, fairly tasty oatmeal. Joan Baez doing Dylan songs on the other hand...that was always a real treat to me. I think the quintessential PPM song to eat oatmeal by is "Leaving On A Jet Plane", though... :-) It's treacly as all hell, and amounts to one lacklustre piece of pop imagery perfectly suited to occupy top 40 forever. It was recently done by some girl singer in an even more annoying fashion than Mary could manage. Have you heard Joan Baez's quite funny parody of Mary's classic singing style on "Very Early Joan" (Vanguard recording)? Joan was quite a mimic. She used to do a number of pop parodies in those days, and a couple of them are on that album. She's also been known to mimic Bob at times, with amusing results.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:29 PM

This bloke should be ashamed of himself! - a true talented genius no doubt - but a total asshole who continually takes the piss out of his devoted audience. Fuck you dylan. don't blame old age, the likes of John Lee Hooker and Muddy Waters would never have insulted thir audiences like you do. You rich, money worshipping BASTARD give something back to the people who put you there!


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:29 PM

Oh yeah? Well, Woodsie, I have just constructed a little effigy of you here, and my dog has pissed on it. Now my pal Chongo Chimp is going to suspend it from the top of yon birch tree, hanging upsidedown with a daft look on its foolish face. Tomorrow we will throw rotten apples at it and laugh at you. Bob doesn't owe you anything, you silly sod. If you don't like it, go listen to someone else.

Some of the best shows I've ever seen in my life were performed by Mr Dylan, and I feel anything but shortchanged.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM

When you have cultivated your fields.... sought out the couple in the next room....determined which way the winds are blowing...you are a marketable commodity.



(It only takes one song - to be launched into folk-lorian-nervana - Mr. Dylan has scored close to a score)



for the rest of you, (and the rest of uwes) - toke another deep, deep one.... and lay lady lay - across the big-brass-bed - to worry about the couple in the next room who are about to win a prize.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:27 PM

Hey, ya all, don't count "mah man" out... I'm about sick of folks sayin' "Dylan's all washed up"... Yeah, right... I've been hearing that same ol' song fir going on 40 years now... It was especially bad in the late 80's after his Isreal tour...

Hey, if you want purdy danged music, go hear someone who does it. Dylan never has and never will... There will always be a few rough edges. Get over it or don't go see him... I will not listen to yet another round of "Bob's all washed up" crap.

I'll tell ya what. Wait until his next CD and then come back and tell me that he's washed up. Oh, but before that, try to sing a couple of the songs on that CD first.

Okay. I'll admit, as he prolly would also, that he'd be just fine in a coffee house playin' strictly acoustic to 75 or 80 folks but he doesn't really have that choice anymore. No, he's got 80,000 folks which means lots of amplification and lots of amplification means having to use it. You don't go usin' it by steppin' to a mic with an acoustic guitar and nothin' else....

So, yes, Dylan is guilty of doing the best he can in tryin' to relate his art thru the promoters venue but he is still friggin' Dylan and I'll not hear any more herisy against the man who every one of us owes so much...

Grrrrrrrrrrr............

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:39 PM

Bobert:

I hope you'r e not aiming all that righteous indignation at e? All I said was he was an all-electric rock and rolling group (very talented) and a singer who did not seem to be speaking English except at intervals.

I didn't say he was washed up, either. I said he sounded like a gravel truck backing into a tin roof. Well, that's a fair description. It wasn't rough edges, man, it was solid rust and corrosion with occasionally a suggestion of a possible edge at all.

I loved watching him,.

I loved growing up with him as my main man of poetic inspiration. I lok forward to hearing his next studio CD with a decent A&R man govenring it.

But I have seen him live twice -- 1962 or thereabouts at Newport and this week. I ain't paying for that treat again.


A


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:47 PM

On his next CD, Bobert, we may get reminded again of why Dylan has gotten deeper under a lot of our skins than anybody else out there, and why it is his lines that go through our heads in a lot of the crazy situations of our lives. Some of us just wish we could get a little more of that in the live performances, bro.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:14 AM

Ain't gonna happen, Frog 'er Amos... Might of fact, it ain't happened for a couple two or three decades now... You all livin' in the past...

Hey, don't go see him... That's fine wid me... Buy his next CD, put yer headphones on and ...... enjoy.

Dylan ain't never gonna make folks happy who expect the magic that he has to come accross in a live concert with 80,000 folks. It's impossible. If it were possible... it wouldn't be Dylan but an imposter.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Terry K
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:35 AM

He was, is, and will remain, a genius. There will always be some people who simply "don't get it". Any mention of Peter, Paul and Mary in the same discussion would merely demonstrate by how far they don't get it. The generation before me said similar things about rock 'n roll. Then about modern jazz.

I sometimes feel sorry for people who are not able to experience what Dylan is all about. Then I feel insanely jealous because maybe it's just that they haven't yet discovered, so have still got it all to come.

Just a general observation - can't comment on the particular concert.

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: breezy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 10:12 AM

well said woodsie

Little hawk obviously does not or hasnt got out much

I certianly am no sheep, more a snarling wolf these days gargle!

Safety in numbers Bobbie, only 40 ish at the troub when he knicked material ideas from Martin Carthy,

Of the 80.000 or so some 'all like him but most were baaing

Terry ,he owes it all to PPM.

And even lanfranc performs Dylan better than dylan who even knicked his 'name' from an alcoholic welshman

Generations have been conned ,just like politicians con us.

Stan Rogers knocked spots off dylan in all aspects of writing and music.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:02 AM

Breezy:

Your remarks were a little bit unformed and hard to understand, but if you really think Bob Dylan owes anything to Peter Paul and Mary, I assure you you are mistaken. He owes a lot to Joan Baez for the lift she gave his career from her own early-growing fame, but artistically, PPandM derived from Dylan, not the other way around.

I won't pay money to be croaked at, and I don't understand why heposes as a singer these days. It can't be because he needs the dough. I love the man dearly, dearly, make no mistake -- and I can forgive him his peccadilloes for all the good his magic songs have added to the world. But it is a bit of a curiousity to me.

A


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:02 AM

O no, not the old "Dylan owes everything to Martin Carthy" cry, we've been though this movie before.

That was 1962. Dylan has made about another 40 albums since then, and sold about 60m, and not a Nottamun Town among the lot. Anyway, what's wrong with a little borrowing from the tradition? Woody Guthrie did it all the time and he never gets slagged. Too many people are just plain jealous of Dylan. Anyone who thinks Dylan's in this game for money couldn't be more wrong. He was born to it. I say, to use a Brendan Behanism, "fuck the begrudgers".

As for PP & M, they owe Bob a lot more than vice versa.

"Music I don't like, I keep my mouth shut about" - Leonard Cohen.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:03 AM

I like Dylan
I like Peter Paul amd Mary
I doubt that I would ever have formed a lasting interest in P.P.&M without some of their covers of Dylan songs.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:40 PM

The person Bob owes the most to for his early success (other than himself) is Joan Baez, as others have noted. And he got that help from Joan because she recognized immediately that his songs were absolutely the best thing happening at the time, light years ahead of what anyone else was doing. Joan said in her book that some people get jealous when they see genius, but she doesn't...she gets excited and inspired. Her excitement over Dylan's creative gifts persuaded her to take him all over the place and present him to her loyal audience when she was the reigning queen of folk music. She harangued her audiences and made them listen to him. She and everybody else recorded his amazing songs. Peter, Paul and Mary were being managed by Albert Grossman, who had his eye on Dylan. Albert knew that PPM would get lots of radio airplay, so he had them release a single of "Blowing In The Wind". He did it to help market Dylan to a wider audience (the radio and pop audience), and it worked magnificently. Albert Grossman was a sharp operator. Thank him, not PPM, for Dylan's unstoppable ascent to the top...which made him and Joan Baez, for awhile, the King and Queen of folk music.

Stan Rogers? Stan was a fine songwriter, a great singer...but he was no Bob Dylan. I like Stan Rogers. I like any number of fine folk performers, and I see plenty of them. But I have never again seen and never expect to see anyone else who attains what Bob Dylan did, and he is a very, very good musician as well as being the best lyricist of the last hundred years. His singing suits his songs. So does Stan Rogers' singing suit Stan's songs.

Now, if I only got out as much as Breezy...(sob! sob!) :-)


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:52 PM

Interesting bit of perspective, L.H.; I had part, but not all, of that picture from other sources.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:23 AM

Joan Baez's part Dylan's rise and rise is minor and much overstated. Dylan's success is due purely to the quality of his art, as recognised and recorded by John Hammond, in the early days.

The answer for Sven is Owen on the wing,
The answer is Owen on the wing..

(Recent football headline in England).


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:29 AM

I offered up my innocence and got repaid with scorn.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

PP


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:33 AM

What is the song that Joan Baez sings that parodies Mary on "Very Early Joan"? She does great pop, but I don't recall anything that sounds like a Travers travesty.

If you listen to the concert recording of the Dylan at Carnegie Hall album, where Bob and Joan do a couple of duets for old times sake, you can see that he has gone off into a different domain completely, she sort of gasps in the dust of his speeding car. Joan is probably the best example of what would have happened if Bob had stayed a folkie -- immensely talented purveyor of traditional material, with occasional straying into some excellent compositions. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't Dylan.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Terry K
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:09 AM

among the many inaccuracies in Breezy's rant is that Dylan "knicked his name from an alcoholic Welshman". The Dylan quote when asked about this by Robert Shelton is;

"No, God no. I took the Dylan because I have an uncle named Dillion. I changed the spelling but only because it looked better. I've read some of Dylan Thomas's stuff and it's not the same as mine".

Shelton was also asked by Dylan to "straighten out in your book that I did not take my name from Dylan Thomas".

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:17 AM

I saw Dylan open for Ian and Sylvia on New Year's Eve '62. I saw PPM in 10/62 at our college homecoming concert - they were not doing Dylan then. In '63 the homecoming concert was Bud and Travis - their version of Tomorrow is a Long Time is still a favorite.
I still sing that and other Dylan songs, but I wouldn't go to see him - I have gone to see PPM and Baez in the last few years. Joan is still the greatest, IMHO - and more than worth the price of the ticket.
I think the Byrds also did a lot for Dylan. Shame he didn't learn from them!
Would be nice to turn on the radio and hear music like back then now, but thank God for mp3's!
Chris in Wheaton


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:35 AM

Peter, it isn't a whole song...it's just a line or two of "500 Miles" that Joan sings in between numbers, while introducing the next song. She is obviously making fun of Mary Travers singing style.

"If you miss...the train I'm on...you will know...that I am gone...you can hear the whistle blow...a hundred miles..."

Big Tim - Agreed. The one overriding factor in Dylan's success was: Dylan himself. It was inevitable that everyone else from Baez to Hendrix would record his songs and add to his success. The thing I like about Joan's part in it was her unselfish spirit of generosity and appreciation for what he was offering. She was already a huge star when Dylan first went to New York as an unknown, and I have always wondered about those lines in "Just Like A Woman":

"please don't let on that you knew me when I was hungry and it was your world"


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:53 AM

Or her own "Diamonds and Rust", 'the unwashed phenomenon'....


A


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 04:29 PM

Yeah, but she really grovelled, she was so lovesick, it was so painful to watch. Her scenes in Don't Look Back are practically unwatchable, she is being treated so badly.


The film of Newport that you can now get has the two of them in happier days.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Review: Bob Dylan in San Diego 10-22-04
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 05:39 PM

Anyone who expects an acoutic performance from Bob at this late date is completely out of touch. Since he "went electric" almost 40 years ago, he hasn't looked back. He always has a *great* band, thoroughly rehearsed; even after his relationship with The Band ended, turnover among his band members has been *very* infrequent -- he attracts the best of the best, and they tend to stay with him for long periods of time.

I've seen Dylan in concert maybe about 8-10 times, always with a rock 'n' roll band except for the very first time (1964). Unlike those who just don't get it, and also unlike those for whom Bob can do no wrong, I have been absolutely knocked out -- "wowed" -- at about half of these concerts, but basically disappointed at the other half.

I appreciate, and think I understand, what Bob is trying to do with his, er, unconventional approach to performance, but I have found that his suceess in reaching the audience (well, *this* audience member, anyway) can vary greatly from one occasion to another.

Nevertheless, *every* Dylan concert is an event, and provides considerable food for thought -- even those with which I've been unimpressed.


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