Origin: Glencoe Massacre (Jim McLean)

Subject: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Priscilla Wintermute
Date: 12 Feb 97 - 04:44 PM

Finding the lyrics to this song has never been much of a problem. Determining who wrote it, however, is another story. I've seen it attributed to "D. MacLean", with an indication that the song is recent enough to still be under copyright. Granted Maclean is a common enough name, but could it have been written by Dougie MacLean?

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Search for "glencoe" threads

Glencoe in the Digital Tradition.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Feb 97 - 09:55 PM

Trad. The MacDonald's refused to sign over property to King William and the Cambell's were sent to dispatch them even though they finally did agree to give up some of their land.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Anne Cormack
Date: 14 Feb 97 - 02:07 AM

This song was definitely NOT written by Dougie Mclean.

The massacre of Glencoe took place on 13th Feb 1692. For two weeks, Captain Robert Campbell and his men stayed with the MacDonald Clan at Glencoe, where they played cards, drank and generally fraternised with the MacDonalds.Captain Campbell was related through marriage,to Ian MacDonald, the Clan Chieftain. On Feb 12, Major Duncanson, Campbell's superior, sent a communication stating that:'You are hereby ordered to fall upon the McDonalds of Glencoe and put all to the sword under seventy...' The words of this song were printed on broadsheets and in chapbooks, but are probably not older than the 19th century. They may have been the effort of a local teacher or literary hack for the benefit of a broadsheet printer.

The above info comes from a book called "Traditional Folksongs & Ballads of Scotland" edited by John Loesberg and published by Ossian Publications Ltd.

Anne

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Priscilla Wintermute
Date: 14 Feb 97 - 02:20 PM

Well... I don't think we're talking about the same song. I also have the songbook you refer to, and yes, I can believe that song was written by a hack! The one I mean is the (infinitely more poetic and succinct) one that goes, "Cruel is the snow that sweeps Glencoe..., etc.," and is in the database.

(I sometimes think that everyone and his brother has either performed or recorded it.) The Corries, on "The Collection", attribute it to a pair of songwriters "MacLean-Duthart", and I've seen another attribution to a D. MacLean, with a copywrite symbol attached. That suggests to me that it hasn't been around long enough to have entered the public domain. Nothing I've seen, however, has said what the "D" stands for.

By the way anyone interested in the full account should get their hands on "Glencoe" by John Prebble. It was published by Penguin in the '60s, so it might be a bit hard to get, but I found it in Glasgow in 1990, so it's probably still available.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: mim
Date: 20 Feb 97 - 07:52 PM

written by Jim McLean, Carlin Music - according to the information on the tape "The Hills of Lorne" by Anne Lorne Gillis. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: mim
Date: 20 Feb 97 - 08:09 PM

Checked further. According to the Gaberlunzie tape, "Scotland Again" It was J. Maclean, Deuart Music Ltd. I think I'd go with the "Jim" or "J" instead of "D". The Corries also say Jim MacLean, Deuart Music, on their album "Live from Scotland, Vol. 3." Prebble' s Glencoe is still available and any bookstore can order it--might take a while, tho. I agree. It's an excellent book.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From:
Date: 21 Feb 97 - 04:25 PM

John Mc Dermott, on his CD 'Old Friends' lists the song as "traditional, Arr.McDermott & Edwards.

Guess he contends that it's traditional, doesnt mean he's right though.

bo

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Lesley N.
Date: 04 Jun 00 - 05:29 PM

I wanted to refresh this because I just had an e-mail from Jim McLean - who saw Glencoe at my site. He did, in fact, write BOTH the music and lyrics, some forty years ago. The SOURCE TYPE NUMBER under which it is registered with the MCPS is 0161096P. He said he's had to defend the tune as his. It was a very nice letter and I am pleased to correct the rumor that this could be a tradition air.

I think it's a testament to the beauty and emotion of the song that people claim it's tradtional! It's one of those rare songs that makes history come alive. Although I don't usually keep copyrighted songs on my site I've asked his permission to do so.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,gene
Date: 04 Jun 00 - 07:05 PM

There seems to be some degree of similarity between the melody of "Massacre at Glencoe" and "Blow the Wind Southerly", especially the refrain. Is there a connection? When was "Blow the Wind Southerly" written?

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 01:52 AM

How wonderful to bring back such a beautiful topic.

NOT

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 02:11 AM

G'day NOT,
I totally agree with your sentiment: "How wonderful to bring back such a beautiful topic".

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Pene Azul
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 02:39 AM

According to this page "Blow the Wind Southerly" was composed by W.G. Whittaker who, according to this page, lived from 1876 to 1944. There's a short biography of William Giles Whittaker (same dates) on this page.

PA

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 05:48 PM

William Giles Whittaker may or may not have composed the tune then. He is credited with two suites on Northumbrian Folk Tunes. Certainly though, arranged or composed, it is older than The Glencoe song.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 07:11 PM

It's the same Whittaker.  The site Pene mentions credits him as composer and John Stobbs as lyricist; Kathleen Ferrier's famous recording of the song gives it as "Trad. arr. Whittaker"; I've seen it elsewhere as just "traditional".  Averaging out, I'd guess that he arranged (and, possibly) reworked an older melody.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 07:29 PM

Mim..you mentioned Gaberlunzie. do you know Gordon and Robin?

The story I was told by a Scot, was that the chief of the MacDonald clan was a little late in swearing alliegence to King William, but, he finally made the trek through the snow from Glen Coe to Inverness to "sign up" with the Kings Secretary , a man named Dalrymple. By the time he arrived in Inverness, Dalrymple had issued the order to wipe out the MacDonalds, and had left Inverness.
I have stood on the spot where the signal fire was lit, and, I swear that you can feel the sorrow in that Glen today. The Campbells have never been forgiven, and, I saw a hotel in Glen Coe with a sign on the lawn which read.. "No dogs or Campbells allowed."

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Lotusland
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 10:28 PM

Which Glencoe song? There's a recent one, and then there's the trad "Pride of Glencoe" ("As I was a walking, one morning of late/where Flora's green mantle the fields did decorate/I met a fair maiden who sweetly did go/She once loved McDonald, the pride of Glencoe."

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:05 AM

"Blow the Wind Southerly" takes its tune from a slowed-down version of the old jig "Kinloch of Kinloch".

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Lesley N.
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 07:39 PM

The fact is Jim proved to a court's satisfaction that the tune and lyrics are his creation, and it is therefore under copyright protection. He's given me permission to keep it on my pages though - so I will, traditional or not because I love the song.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 03:07 AM

I have heard someone sing this with a short Gaelic prefix, [3 lines]. My Gaelic being Irish, of the standard,'school'version, I couldn't catch it. Also, I cannot now remember who sang it! Anyone know of such a prefix being associated with this song? Eddie

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:36 AM

Lotusland asks which Glencoe song. If you look at the Digital Tradition Database Search box at the top of this page, you'll find a few Glencoe songs. The one in question has the chorus "Cruel was the snow that sweeps Glencoe" (though I sing "White was the snow that covered Glencoe"). the database doesn't credit the author, maybe Dick and co. will rectify this omission in the next update? See also this Glencoe thread

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:21 PM

Hi Lesley & thanks for bringing this back. I've sung this for ages under the belief that it's was far older. Thanks again. Barry

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 05:09 PM

I have just discovered this web site and can quite clearly say that I wrote the song, words and music, in 1963. (How cruel was the snow....). It was first recorded by Nigel Denver on Decca SKL 5014 'Borderline' and has been recorded many times since. It was first published by Scott Solomon Productions and went through various hands until it reached Carlin Music from whence Duart Music aquired the rights. My email is [e-mail] and I would be happy to correspond with anyone about the song. I am deeply flattered with the interest generated. Slainte, Jim MvLean

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 09:46 PM

Hi Jim, glad you found your way here & thanks for your input. I'm glad I know now what I didn't know then (sorry). I can at least now give out the correct info & credit due when ever next I sing it. My complements to you on writting such a great song/tune. Barry

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 11:41 AM

Is there also a 'trad' Massacre? I seem to recall one.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 01:00 PM

Yes, but not a very old or widespread one, and very different from Jim McLean's take on the story; The Massacre of Glencoe, which I believe I mentioned in another discussion on the subject (and was referred to earlier in this one). There are two sets (one with tune) in the Grieg-Duncan Collection, vol.I; both noted in the first decade of the 20th century and apparently deriving from 19th century broadsides, one example of which can be seen at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Flora & Donald, or the massacre of Glencoe Printed between 1840 and 1866 by J. Harkness, Printer, 121, Church Street, Preston. [2806 c.14(26)]

It reads more as Victorian melodrama (complete with cannons) than traditional song, though, and was presumably knocked together long after the event, which I don't expect many people will have felt much like singing about at the time. It uses the same characters, Flora and [Mac]Donald, who appear in the vastly more popular (and, probably, earlier) "broken token" song, The Pride of Glencoe, and curiously refers to the Campbells as "The English"!

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From:
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:47 PM

That's because, the worst thing you could call a highlander was "Sassenach", which equated to raper/pillager. Down through the centuries, it has come to mean the English.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:39 PM

Oho; quite the can of worms there, George, which I'll pass up on, I think, tempted though I am to challenge some of the assumptions implicit...

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From:
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:51 PM

's truth! I swear it.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 12:18 AM

This subject has been recycled through several threads. Here are links. Several other notable Scottish songs also are in these threads.
3082. Discussion, "The Rape of Glencoe," mention of the "Border Widow's Lament." Rape of Glencoe
4220. "The Border Widow's Lament," Child, with ABC, posted by Bruce O. Border Widow
5933. Midi file, ABC for the Jim McLean song. McLean Midi
6615. Mention of Corries version. Also "The Sunday Driver," lyrics, midi, abc. Corries
9608. McLean "Oh, Cruel is the snow that sweeps Glencoe," lyrics, not credited. Philippa noted lack of credits; still uncredited. Cruel is
14414. Mention only.
15279. Mention only. Song "The Shores of Sutherland." Sutherland
17369. Songs of Vengeance. Mention only. Vengeance
19350. Inquiry about "MacIain of Glencoe." No answer given. MacIain
20328. Mention. Lyrics to:
"The Bloody Sarks"
"Black Douglas"
"Heidless Cross"
"Glenlyon Lament"
"Ye Jacobites By Name"
Mention of others. Bloody
24697. Genocides and Massacres. Mention only. Some good songs about General Custer. Custer
28076. Mention only.
28662. Cruelty to Scots. BS on Glencoe. Cruelty
28817. Chords (several sets) to McLean's song. Glencoe chords

Subject: Jim McLean
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 10:35 AM

I did a DT and forum search for Jim McLean. Nothing showed up on the DT (although it would if all songs were properly credited). His name is mentioned in threads about The Glasgow I Used To Know, The Royal Horses, Yellow On The Broom: New Version, Ballad of Glencoe (as in this thread)and The Shores of Sutherland - - most often in messages from Suzanne.

Subject: Jim McLean
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 10:40 AM

a search for 'Jim MacLean' was rewarded also - 'Hush, Hush time to be sleeping' and Land of MacLeod

Jim, it would be interesting to see your comments on Land of MacLeod (I will go ...); I've given a clickable link for your convenience!

Subject: More McLean !
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 10:54 AM

see also Glasgow Eskimos
Glesca Eskimo lyrics

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Jim Mclean
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 01:08 PM

Hi, I knew Roddy quite well (went fishing with him) and he said the gaelic version was tradtional which he learned from his mum. He used to sing it at a folk song club in Glasgow, at he bottom of Argyll Street. The Trongate? (i'm from Paisley!) Again this would be about 1959. Jimmy MacGregor only prettified the song. Cheers, Jim Mclean PS. When we were writing Ding Dong Dollar, we called ourselves The Glesca Eskimos because some protesters challenged a sub at Faslane in a canoe!!

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Fiosrach
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:15 PM

I can't find earlier reference to "Roddy" in this thread and I'm not sure which song you are referring to, Jim.

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:22 PM

Mim: I'm happy to know someone other than myself has the CD you mention, "The Hills Of Lorne." I love it, and one of the songs on it, "Think on Me" was the reason I came to the Mudcat originally some three years ago. I was searching for the lyrics. I didn't find them, but I found a super Internet site that has brought me a lot of enjoyment.

DougR

Subject: RE: Who wrote
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:26 PM

It appears he is referring to Roddy Macmillan and Land of MacLeod. In the thread about that song Ewan MacVicar attributes the song to Roddy Macmillan or perhaps Jim MacLean. Macmillan was correct. I meant for Jim to comment on the songs other than Glencoe at the appropriate threads, not here ... but he's new to Mudcat. Land of MacLeod is based on an older Gaelic song - see both sets of lyrics at the relevant thread.

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Guest REF
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 08:00 PM

I am taking a Scottish Formations class, and the poem "On The Massacre of Glencoe" which began with "O tell me, Harper, wherefore flow Thy wayward notes of wail and woe" was published in 1814 and written by Sir Walter Scott(1771-1832).

Subject: RE: the rape of glencoe
From:
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:03 AM

who wrote the rape of glenco

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Felipa
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:18 AM

Steven - did you read many of the messages above? see note from J McLean 22 July 02 - is it his song you refer to (..cruel was the foe that raped Glencoe...")?

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:57 AM

Alistair Macdonald wrote it.

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:10 PM

Jim McLean wrote the song.

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 May 03 - 04:58 PM

Thanks busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland. I don't know how many times I have had to say that I wrote the song. When Alastair McDonald first recorded the song, I produced and wrote the LP (Nevis 002 1972). Nigel Denver was the first to record the song on Decca but there are already many threads regarding this. The correct title is ' The Massacre of Glencoe' although it's also known as 'The Ballad of Glencoe' 'The Rape of Glencoe' and just 'Glencoe'. This ties in with the other thread about 'Three songs: ..'
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:39 PM

to george, with respect. sassenach just means saxon. there is no x in gaelic, at least not scots. the lowland scots do use it as an insult but highlanders mean nothing more than saxon. it refers to all southern germanics traditionally but specificcaly the english, the norse , although germanic were the laughlannach, or inmodern idiom, luaghlanders.and several other names. they were fully intermarried with highlanders by the time of glemcoe, so although they were barbaric they were part of the culture

peole try to make a big deal of what an insult it was, but in traditional highland culture , where men recited their lineage before battle, an insult that your grandfather ran from killiekrankie or such was the real insult, especially if true.

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:30 PM

I do not know how Jim McLean manages to keep his temper about this one.

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Haggerdash
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:31 PM

I don't think there is anything more to be added to what Jim Maclean has already said. Everybody who has ever heard the song will have a different impression as to who wrote it. Simmilar problems are experienced with " The Wee Kircudbright Centipede " and " Sam The Skull "

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:35 PM

Ewan knows me as an even tempered man! But I don't understand Haggerdash's point. The Wee Kirkudbright Centipede was written by Matt McGinn and Sam the Skull's author was Harry Hagan. I wrote 'all' the versions/titles by which The Massacre of Glencoe is known so how many impressions of me are there? Sorry, Haggerdash, I'm not really clear as to your meaning.
Slainte,
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,evan.
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:48 PM

Pat Cooksey sang this song at our highland gathering last week and said Jim McLean wrote it many years ago. I have many recordings of Pat's songs by other artists and they do not allways credit Pat as the author, how is this possible. Is it really so easy to take credit for other peoples songs.

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:09 PM

I don't know know how Jim puts up with it either. But the answer is simple. There are a great many complete idiots out there who are not even capable of SCANNING a few posts before adding their own mis-information.

You should see what happens with Bluegrass songs, or Ewan MacColl songs. I used to laugh. I don't anymore.

Rick

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: GUEST,Anne Lorne Gillies
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 09:30 AM

Strayed into this conversation by accident, in the process of writing a book about Gaelic song.

I am a big fan of Jim MacLean's work, which has all the marks of good folksong (simplicity, singability, etc etc)and a real knowledge of history. This very "authenticity" is perhaps its worst enemy as regards copyright: people are inclined to assume that the best songs are "traditional".

I am also a fan (and a pal) of Alistair Macdonald, who has done such a lot to popularise the songs of people like Jim MacLean and Matt McGinn throughout his career(www.corbanrecordings.co.uk).

I have recorded two of Jim MacLean's songs: "Glencoe" on my album "The Hills of Lorne" and "Hush hush time to be sleeping" on my album "Milestone". Properly attributed to the composer of course in each instance.

I prefaced my recorded version of "Glencoe" with a line or two of "Mhnathan a' ghlinne seo 's mithich dhuibh eirigh" ("Women of this glen it's time you got up") a Scottish Gaelic lullaby which is said to have been played in the night by the Campbells' piper in order to warn the sleeping MacDonalds of the impending massacre. The tune of "Mhnathan a' Ghlinne seo" is not dissimilar to Jim's "Glencoe", and it seemed to make a fitting intro to his song.

NB: I am not suggesting that Jim's melody is in any way "based" on the older tune, though if it were this would be perfectly good traditional practice - very many Gaelic and Scots songs share and borrow and adapt tunes from one another. And, in days before writing, poets needed tunes to help them to remember the words of their poems. The tunes were little more than vehicles for the words.

Finally, I too was a pal of Roddy MacMillan's, the great Scottish actor (who "became" Para Handy in BBC Scotland's televised version, away back in the 1960/70s). Roddy's people were from Harris, and he wrote several good songs (e.g. "Farewell my love" - also on my album "The Hills of Lorne"). Another was "I will go, I will go" (The Land of MacLeod) - both tune and words adapted from the great Gaelic song Napoleonic song "Tha mi 'n duil" (Duthaich MhicLeoid).

If you want to know more (sorry - plug coming up!) you'll have to buy the book. "Songs of Gaelic Scotland", to be published by Birlinn, Edinburgh, hopefully in time for Christmas if I stop blethering to you and get it finished!!!

If you want to buy "The Hills of Lorne", please contact me on [e-mail]

Leis gach deagh dhurachd

Dr Anne Lorne Gillies

Subject: RE: Who wrote Glencoe Massacre
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 10:08 AM

Thanks for your input, Anne, nice to hear your thoughts.
Slainte,
Jim McLean