Get Rhythm

Subject: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 05:49 AM

As Johnny Cash sang, Get Rhythm. I Got Rhythm, Fascinating Rhythm, Crazy Rhythm, Beat Me Daddy, 8 To The Bar, And The Beat Goes On..

Looking back over a lifetime of popular music, rhythm has been a major force in defining popular music. From the syncopation of ragtime and Cakewalks, to ragtime, boogie Woogie and Swing and then rock and roll, rhythm and blues, calypso, reggae, disco, rap and now hip hop, everyone's got rhythm.

Like most of us I suspect, I didn't grow up on traditional folk music. I grew up on the rhythms of popular music. And most popular music in this country was dance music, from boogie woogie and jump blues to Moonlight Cocktails and Cry Me A River.

And, what about folk music? I don't imagine many folks danced to The House Carpenter or Mattie Groves. Most folk music got da rhythm, but it don't got da beat. Folk music is more story-songs and ballads, where the words are more important than the rhythm. Of course, there are the work songs, whether they were for lining track or sea chanteys, where the rhythm made the work easier.

I'd just like to start an open-ended discussion about rhythm and how it affects your appreciation of music. I am basically a musical illiterate, so I can't verbalize rhythm by musical notation, but I know others can. Not that I would necessarily understand it, but I'd like to hear it, anyway.

I have a lot to add, myself, just of personal preferences. But, I'm outta here.

It's all yours...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:53 AM

Did Johnny Cash really sing "Beat me Dady, 8 To The Bar"? That puts a whole new perspective on it for me - I've only ever heard it by the Andrews Sisters!

I would differentiate between two related things: beat and rhythm.

In popular music, there is usually a BEAT provided by a bass drum/snare drum/ hi hat, or by some electronic gizmo. Although it may be decorated, the basic regular beat acts as a metronome for the rest of the music.

RHYTHM, on the other hand, is there with or without the beat. Rhythm is what makes you tap your foot when you hear a well played hornpipe or jig, or hear some nice doowop. The rhythm is there in the music, just like the rhythm in good poetry.

But there can be rhythm within the melody, OR within the harmonies.

In some music, there is a very clear 1,2,3,4 rhyhm (for example) from bar to bar, carried by the melody/lyrics; in other music, the rhythm is there in changes of chord/harmony ever bar, or two bars, or whatever. Usually, there is some of each in a good song.

I think your description of folk music contains some preconceptions << Folk music is more story-songs and ballads, where the words are more important than the rhythm.>> Sea chanties, hunting songs, nonsense songs, and anything with a whack fol dir o day in it rely much more on their rhythm than their narrative.

And some tunes are for dancing to, and some aren't, whether you're talking about pop music or folk music. Not many people boogied to Annie's Song; not many people get sentimental and misty eyed about a tune like Dingle Regatta.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:56 AM

Jerry, I think you're being a little narrow in what you are referring to as folk music. I would have thought that a huge percentage of folk music is dance music. Songs that tell stories are one kind of folk music, dance music is another. Both folk. Both well suited to their function.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:22 AM

Jerry's talking about what folk music is to him. Granted, it's an opportunity for another argument about you-know-what, but I'll just let people talk about their own experiences. I will say that dance music has a great deal of 'beat' - it has to!

Before there were jump rope rhymes and clapping rhymes, there was my mom's record collection. I don't even think I was aware of what were then modern hits, until I was perhaps 10 or so. I litstened to my mom's 78 records (some of which had probably belonged to her mom). There was Spike Jones, Bing Crosby, Harry Belafonte, Doris Day, Billie Holiday, various "big band" orchestras with or without singers. My mom baked bread, and she would whistle or hum while she worked. Occasionally, she'd sing the words too - sometimes because I asked her. "Beat Me Daddy, 8 to the Bar" and "Minnie the Moocher." My mom had sung with a local big band when she was younger.

When I "found" folk music, it was after the "folk scare." (Granted, I heard a good deal of that on the radio, but was classified in my brain at the time as "stuff you heard on the radio.") It was John Roberts & Tony Barrand, Boys of the Lough, Sandy & Caroline Paton, Gordon Bok and Michael Cooney...but it was also the Georgia Sea Island singers. It was blues and ragtime and come-to-Jesus, hand-clappin', foot-stompin' gospel, and boogie-woogie.

Everything sounded good. Why the latter stuff, with its syncopation and blues scales, made sense to me, someone who grew up as a small white child surrounded by white people, it had to have been my mom and her record collection.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:45 AM

Jerry R : I'm sorry that you consider yourself a "musical illiterate" but the answer lies with yourself. Admit it, wouldn't it be great to pick up a piece of notated music and just sight-read and play it in just the same way as you are reading this writing? It is never too late to learn. Do it now and enrich your life. Even Bach had to start somewhere.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:33 PM

The rhythm in the vein is where it all begins, Jer. You got that right regardless of the class of music. And by saying so you prove yourself far less illiterate than yousay. :D

Music is the ultimate resort of a soul enslaved by tiome getting his own back, and rhythm is "it".

A

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:26 PM

I find it almost always helps to clap (or tap, or stomp, etc.) on 2 and 4 rather than on 1 and 3. I'm sure Jerry knows what I'm talking about, like anyone who knows Black Gospel music.

Emphasizing that "downbeat" is generally considered characteristic of the African element of our musical heritage, but I don't find it to be all that foreign to *any* music with a steady 4/4 beat, even the most purely European. It is true that the typical mostly-white audience, when moved to participate by hand-clapping, will generally start off hitting that pedestrian old one-and-three -- but if just one person [guess who] can be heard clapping on two and four, the whole crowd will usually follow suit, with markedly increased enjoyment and enthusiasm. Why? I dunno; probably because "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing."

Last summer, late in the final evening of my trip to Ireland, I was in that bastion of traditional Irish music, Gus O'Connor's Pub in Doolin, County Clare. A group of six or seven (fiddles, whistles, a bodhran and a bass) were playing some very lively, uptempo instrumental tunes, and as I got more and more into the spirit (and as more spirits got into me), I found myself starting to clap, hard and loud, coming down heavy (as is my habit) on that two-and-four.

I was conscious that I *might* be violating some kind of arcane trad-music rule or custom, and was ready to stifle myself if I found myself all alone out there on the downbeat -- but no. The crowd picked right up on it, a couple of the musicians caught my eye and smiled as they began to play with just a bit more intensity, and there was even a lessening of the underlying hum of conversation as the whole pub seemed to start bouncing along with the beat. Didn't last forever, of course, but it was lots of fun for 10-15 minutes, and (to me, at least) quite enlightening.

I believe there's something deep in everyone's subconscious (or is it unconscious?) awareness that responds to rhythm and syncopation. We can't explain it, and can't analyze or even describe it satisfactorily, but it is definitely there, and we can share our enjoyment of it by playing and listening to each other's music.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:50 PM

What a great set of responses! Guest, you said it best... defining the difference between beat and rhythm. Even speech can have rhythm. There is an internal rhuthm in many words. I was talking more about beat than rhythm.

And, in my rush to start this thread before heading out the door this morning, I didn't mean to "define" or limit what I think of as folk music. Maybe just as well that I didn't express myself well. Part of the fun in a conversation is to be challenged to focus your thinking.

I think Johnny Cash's song really is saying Get the beat. Even ballads have some rhythm to them (or they're likely to end up putting you to sleep.)

And of course, much of folk music was for dancing. Seems to me that Kevin McGrath made a statement that all folk music is for dancing (which is beyond what I would agree with.) It's not just the obvious string band/fiddle tunes/and accordians/tin whistles and all the rest.
If any song has an infectious rhythm, you'll get people dancing.

This morning, I was rushing out because my group had been asked to sing at a funeral service in Brooklyn (a 2 and a half hour drive from here.) The service was held in a funeral home and because the woman was well into her 90's, there weren't many friends left to say goodbye and the room was only modestly filled. I had brought my electric guitar, and we were going to do three songs that had been requested. But, because there was a major accident on the highway, everything was running late, so we cut it down to two songs, and because of the smallness of the room and the seriousness of the occasion, we ended up doing the songs a capella. This contrasts with the first funeral we sang at a few years ago, where we did some upbeat songs in a black church, and people were dancing in the pews and in the asiles. We were standing with our back against the coffin, and everyone was having a good "home going" celebration. In both instances, there was a rhythm to the music, but there was a strong beat to the more "upbeat" songs we did at the black church.

Got Beat?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Dead Horse
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:01 PM

Got Cajun?

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:29 PM

Ya, Mon!

Now cajun! There's a rhythm I defy anyone to stay still when they hear it. Glad you mentioned it DH.. it's a another type of music I really love. And it took a lot for me to forgive accordians for Myron Floren, lime green spandex leisure suits and Lady of Spain.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

"Get Rhythm'" by Ry Cooder. Ouch!!!!! !!

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:11 PM

Jerry - Why Oh Why do you keep starting these threads that make me THINK !!!

As Jeri said a lot of it is the 'What is Folk' thing and thats a question !!!!

A lovely quote from an 'English Traditional' book I read Years ago made the comment that Tin Pan alley had put a strait jacket on the musical tastes of most people as part of the intro to a song in five four time - Rhythm?? If it aint Four/Four or Three/Four it Aint Right

I know its a whole different ball game over the pond , but here in Yooker land traditionally songs were sung , NOT played and the fiddle etc were for dancing or church music . Its only recently that the idea of accompanied song MIGHT be 'Folk' has been accepted over here , whereas in USA , traditionally , most songs were accompanied ,
which immediately adds an extra dimension to the performance .

And when I say recently , I mean before MY time in folk , which is only forty years ,

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:49 PM

Good point, Lead. I realize that not only is "folk" ridiculously hard to define, the definition is a little different over your way than it is here.

When this thread starts to unravel, I'll start one titled Get Harmony.
England and Scotland seem to have a much stronger group singing tradition than Amurica, and while I can't describe the difference musically, harmony and group singing is distinctly different between the two countries.

But then, I don't want to get started on that, yet. I do believe that you are right that "folk" music has a stronger instrumental history here than it does in England.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:06 PM

Jerry -- LEAVE THE HARMONY ALONE !!!!! Over here Harmony in Folk only dates back to the early sixties . We can waste enough time talking about the Rhythm / Beat for now !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Dead Horse
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:21 AM

Only mentioned the Cajun 'cos that's where Greg, Poppagator & I are coming from (Me & Greg musically, Poppa has the missfortune to live in La, poor chap:-)

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:25 AM

Just an aside... Lead, if harmony singing in England is so recent, why is it that at folk festivals in America, the harmonies at sing alongs sound so English? Maybe that's recent, too..

But that's for another thread..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:03 PM

The beat is life. And movement is an integral part of ALL African and African Diaspora music.   

There's no doubt that African Americans move to the music. But what is interesting to me is that we have changed up the way we move.

I've noticed {at least among African Americans is that finger snapping has changed to waving your raised hands in the air from side to side {to the beat}.

Remember the 1960s R&B song "It's Finger Poppin time"? Well,how many kids nowadays would even know what "finger poppin" means? I for one am glad that people don't snap fingers to the music now like they used to,since I never could quite get the hang of how to do it.

And "tapping {one's} feet {or toes"}appears to also be played out as an expression and an action. "Tapping your feet" has been replaced by "stomping your feet." It seems to me that the word "stomping" sounds more forceful than "tapping" {in both meanings of the word "sounds"}. Maybe the increased bass sound has something to do with this change in terminology, I don't know.

Of course, there is still nodding head in time to the beat, but if you attend any or see any African American non-religious concerts,
I doubt that there is much {any?} clapping hands to the beat, including off time clapping.

With regard to religious music, in SOME African American churches, the choir and congregation still clap to the songs, and the choirs still move back and forth while singing, but it depends what Black church you go to whether you'll hear downhome singing and accompanying spirited clapping or not. IMHO, there's too many churches and church people tryin to be middle class and feeling like they have to restrain the spirit to do so. {I believe you can testify to what I'm saying, Jerry}.

---
Has anyone else noticed this change in the ways people respond to the beat and describe their response to the beat?

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:20 PM

Bluegrass is folk music and it has beat.

Country Music is folk music and it has beat, also.

Do you "shake it" to the rhythm or to the beat?

When you are singing along and swaying to Irene Goodnight, are you swaying to the rhythm or the beat?

When you hear the old classic the MTA by the Kingston Trio, are you tapping your toe to the rhythm or the beat?

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:53 PM

Hey, Azizi:

Right on. Today, I sang with the Men's Chorus at the black Baptist church my wife and I attend. When they were taking the collection, we did a very African sounding song (much like the ones my wife and I heard in church in Ghana.) I was the only one clapping off-beat and was corrected by the man standing next to me. I told him that it was my African blood (I'm half Danish, and the other half mostly English and French.) I asked him whatever happened to polyrhythms, and said, I guess they aren't allowed in this church. He laughed and nodded his head knowingly. I find it humorous that as the Lone White Guy in the black churches we go to that I am usually the only one who claps off-rhythm, except when my friend and fellow Gospel Messenger Frankie is with us. Then, we both clap off-rhythm and get a whole rhythm section going of our own. You might think that it's the upscale black churches that have lost the rhythmic clapping, but I don't even hear it in the Apostolic churches. They run around the church when the Holy Spirit moves them, but for some reason, they all clap on the beat.

Yeah, Martin... has a beat to it, as well as the obvious rhythm. I think it's the back-beat that people think of when they think of the "beat." Or, the bass line. From what I remember, you play bass, Martin so you know all about the beat.

When I see cars coming down the street playing their stereos so loud that the fenders rattle, there's no problem catching the beat. To my ears, the beat overwhelms everything else, but then I am about as graceful a dancer as Frankenstein probably was, so I can't speak directly about dance beats.

Nice to see you both posting in this thread.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: GLoux
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:25 PM

Square dance music has lots of rhythm and beat to it. Old Time fiddle and banjo music recorded at the dawn of recording and beyond captured nineteenth century musicians playing very rhythmic music that evolved quite traditionally. Plus there are a whole bunch of non-dance ("crooked") tunes with lots of rhythm. I'm citing the earlier recordings because as recording and radio evolved, a small number of popular musicians had an incredible impact on the ensuing evolution. For example, the impact that Arthur Smith had on fiddling, changing the direction away from traditional playing by slicking up tunes, becoming less rhythmic, more notey, etc. I think he set a model that most bluegrass fiddlers (e.g., Kenny Baker) largely adhere to, obviously to varying degrees of success. The older recordings help to validate the claims by later musicians (e.g., Tommy Jarrell, Buddy Thomas, etc.) that the way they play is the way it used to be done...that is, with much more (albeit subtle) rhythm. Older recordings of gospel music to me reveal more subtle rhythm, too, in the voices. I'm thinking of a couple of recordings made by Alan Lomax of the Bright Light Quartet ("Straighten 'Em", "The Prayer Wheel"). I love that stuff.

I think that while more contemporary music like bluegrass, "folk", rock, etc. there is more emphasis on the beat and losing rhythmic subtlety. I'm not saying there is no rhythm...I'm saying this from my own experience of learning to cross pick guitar. When I cross pick a tune, I have to shed the rhythm and stick to the roll pattern, much the same way a bluegrass banjo player must.

I once attended a workshop by Art Stamper, whose father, Hiram Stamper, was a nineteenth century fiddler. Art played a tune the way his father played, and then played it the way he would play it in bluegrass style. To hear one man play in BOTH styles just blew me away.

Great topic, Jerry...

-Greg

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:19 PM

Thanks for the great post,Gloux. It was very timely. This Saturday, I'm doing a Gospel in Black, Bluegrass and Blues and am appreciative of any insights into bluegrass that you and Martin can offer. I look forward to Barbara Shaw and Shore Grass adding their coments, and Rich Gallagher (dwditty) adding his on blues.

One thing that seems likely to happen in the evolution of any musical style is that when the music becomes more of a performance in front of a seated audience or in a recording studio, virtuosity and complex instrumental breaks become more important. I have good friends in an old-timey band and I've heard them in concert and playing for dances many times. Their whole approach to the music is noticeably different when they're playing for a dance. The rhythm and beat becomes of primary importance, and taking fancy breaks doesn't make a lot of sense in that setting.

I too like the old gospel quartet stuff. Contemporary "Christian" music has been run through a blender and pureed. There are those who are greatly moved by Praise and Worship songs, so I don't knock them.
But for me, the rawer, simpler black gospel gets me moving like nothing else. And now, the bass line that drives the song is done by an electric bass, not a bass voice.

Whatever works.

Bur I like the old stuff.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Vixen
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:23 AM

Yes, well, Jerry, you did it AGAIN! You do come up with fascinating topics! I can't wait for "harmony!"

Since my role in the duo with Reynaud is mostly "rhythm guitarist" I desperately need to get some rhythm. I'm trying everything I can think of to "get a groove" and mostly not succeeding. Anything beyond a basic "boom-chick" is beyond my abilities at this point. I count to 4 (or 3, or 6 or whatever) over and over and over in my head, and that's the only way I can do it (so far). I'd like to know *how* to "get rhythm" when one is genetically deprived of a rhythm gene! (strangely enough, I can dance to the beat, but I haven't been able to translate that to foot-tapping or strumming).

Any suggestions?

V

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: MMario
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM

Vixen - I am completly without that rhythmn gene myself.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

For the rhythm-challenged:

One thing I've come to realize singing in a Men's Chorus, and starting my own group, is that people can be extremely gifted in many ways, and yet have serious problems with something that comes naturally to someone far less gifted. Let me give an example (or two.)

There is a man who sings in the Men's Chorus I am in who has one of the best voices in the Chorus. He knows a seemingly endless repertoire of old black gospel and loves to sing. But, he has very little sense of rhythm. When the Chorus Director gives him a lead to sing on occasion, this man can't tell when he is supposed to come in, and because he is leading everyone else, the song often completely disintegrates. He will not come in on the beat for the chorus, and the rest of the singers will come in on time. This man has sung in choirs and even in a gospel quintet for most of his adult life, and yet he can't feel the rhythm. I've watched the Chorus Director, who is a wonderfully generous and patient man try to work with this man, to help him get the rhythm. One thing he tries to do is get the man to slap his leg with his hand in rhythm to the beat, and that seems to help. It's the only technique I've seen that seems to work. The man still struggles, but after all these years, he seems to be making some progress. He is a wonderful person and a good friend, so I do everything that I can to encourage him. I think that the best thing that has happened is that the Chorus Director is no longer trying to compensate for him. For a long time, the rest of the Chorus hesitated until this man came in, even off-beat, and then we came in.

Last Sunday, I heard the Women's Chorus sing, and another favorite person of mine was singing the lead. She has a powerful, Aretha Franklin voice and puts every bit of emotion and feeling into her singing. I've heard her sing for many years, and she has always been rock solid. But, for some strange reason, she had trouble keeping the beat and the Chorus Director had to keep adding, or taking away beats, to keep in time with her. That really surprised me. It was a good reminder that humility is one of the best virtues we all can have, as singers, musicians and people. Even the best of all singers and instrumentalists can get off beat, or off key (or forget the words.)

My only advice on learning to keep rhythm is to make it physical.. by tapping your foot or slapping your hand against your thigh. I think that when you can ingrain the rhythm into your body, then you will have an easier time "getting rhythm."

Come to our Gospel Workshop at NOMAD, Vixen. We'll get you moving!

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: MMario
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

"can't tell when he is suppossed to come in...etc, etc" good description of me...

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Vixen
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM

"can't tell when he is supposed to come in...etc, etc"
HOO BOY Is that me! Poor Reynaud is always in doubt as to when I'm going to start singing...It's the only time I ever really surprise him, and (pity him!) it's always an unpleasant surprise. You would think that just out of random chance I'd start singing in the right spot once out of every four tries, but it's almost as if I'm so "rhythmically challenged" that I'll start ANYWHERE but in the right spot. As with the guitar, I have to think and count to find the right spot, and the thinking and counting slow me down, so even with that, I come in a bit late. I'll try the "leg slapping;" it may be the strategy that will help my brain get with the beat!

V

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: GLoux
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

Vixen,

It is very difficult to help you with rhythm in this forum...I could show you some things that I do, but to describe them is quite difficult. You're right, you want to get into a groove...and Jerry is absolutely right in that the best way to keep rhythm (or to avoid risking losing it) is to somehow keep it physical. With regard to when to start singing, I think it is less about rhythm and more about reaching agreement ahead of time on either counting in, or some subtle "clue" or "hint" (when I nod my head, or just after this chord).

NOMAD looks like a great event that I will have to miss...

-Greg

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 09:10 PM

When I started this thread, I had no idea where it would go as I left it so open-ended. I was hoping that as everyone contributed, there'd be some new insights to share. I'm starting to believe that there is a whole principal of rhythm that is coming through... moving with the rhythm. There have been some comments made in other threads about musicians (especially some bluegrass musicians) who are playing amazingly lively and intricate musical passages, who remain completely motionless (and seemingly emotionless.) For some, it may be that they can't do two things at once... like patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time. I have no way of knowing why they remain motionless. For me, I guess I should paraphrase the old hymn and ask "How can I keep from moving when I'm singing?" Or, "Why would I want to remain motionless?" For me, singing and playing is a total experience. It wasn't that way for many years when I started performing, mostly because I was too tense and self-conscious to let myself go. Now, I figure if I'm really loose when I sing and play, I have a better shot at dodging the tomatoes.

As to "when to come in," that's something we've had to work out in my quartet. There are several ways to approach the problem. A nod is the simplest. When one of us is having a problem knowing when to come in, our tenor Derrick will give a slight nod. No one in the audience may notice it, but it works nicely. Another way to avoid the problem, which also makes for tighter harmonies is for the lead singer to sing the first word of the first line of the chorus on his own, and then the harmonies all come in on the second word. Usually, once we're into the chorus, everyone can pick up the rhythm andc stay on beat.

Vixen.. maybe your partner should give you a nod when you are supposed to come in. That would reduce the tension, and help you to gain more confidence in feeling the rhythm. Slapping your thigh with your hand while you're playing guitar would be quite a trick. I'd love to see you do it, if you master it.. :-)

Any other suggestions people have?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:25 PM

On "knowing when to come in" the nod does work but especially with good eye contact communication. Sometimes I have thought that this is the "real" language of music, when just looking at someone eye to eye communicates a thought process that makes spoken words completely unnecessary. It's quite a beautiful thing and I believe it is what separates musicians into who are and who are not true group players.

In bluegrass, it can be on levels the novice can only imagine.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:07 AM

You're right about that, Martin. It may not even be a perceptible nod. Sometimes with my group, it's just a smile, or a slight movement. That comes from playing and singing with other musicians for a long time, until communication becomes intuitive.

In the meantime, a not works fine.

Just a humorous aside... I asked the bass singer in my group to count out the beat before he started to sing on a song where we all try to start out on the same note, and we do it a capella. He agreed that that was a good idea, and we went to sing the song again, he suddenly started singing. I told him that he was supposed to count out the beat before he started singing, and he said, "I did." We all burst out laughing, and I said, "You can't just count it out in your head! You've either got to count it out softly so that we can hear it, or give us the beat with your hand."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:29 AM

I move whenever I play/sing. Not much, not flamboyantly, but it helps me keep the beat right. To look at me you might not think that I am moving sometimes, and that is because, being Greek, I am used to dances "driven by the shoulders" - where the West Indians and Latins use their waist as the driver, and Africans their waist and feet, we go into a movement shoulder first. Watch a Tchifteteli dance by any Turk or Arab (or Greek) and you'l see what I mean).

English dances are led by the feet (the arm movements in Morris dancing are embellishments, not "drivers"). And the best example of an English act moving on stage are the Spiers-Boden duo. A joy to behold, and Jon Boden (Scrapy Jon) has even developed his steps to the point where he uses a sound board to dance on and produce a bass-like effect.

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:37 PM

Hey, Vixen:

One more word of encouragement. Frankie, in my quartet, has a real hard time knowing when to come in when he is leading a song. One of the songs he sings lead on is He Looked Beyond My Faults And Saw My Needs. (appropo for this thread..) We tried everything to help him, including nods, guitar introductions, hand signals... the more we tried, the more confused he got. We finally decided that it was more important for him to put feeling into the song, because he does such a beautiful job on it. Now, we just Frankie sing, and I just wait for him to go into the next line while I accompany him on guitar. When he starts the chorus, we all come in on time with him, and we wait for each line, because sometimes he'll take a couple of extra beats before he goes into the next one. We concentrate on the message of the song, and Frankie sings it with such Spirit and feeling that it is one of the best songs we do. There are times when he is so emotionally immersed in the song that we gut pulled in and one of ud will just have to step away, completely overcome by the power of the message. The audience responds in the same way. Once we stopped getting all wound up about erratic timing and let the song and the singer sing from the bottom of his heart, we realized that that was all that really mattered.

Sometimes, it's just enough to sing with your heart.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Get Rhythm
From: Vixen
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM

Wow! somehow I lost track of this thread after my last post...

Jerry--you're right--I won't be slapping my thigh when I'm playing whistle or guitar! Not sure what I was thinking of, unless it was those times when I'm not playing, only singing. Also, I'd LOVE to have Reynaud "give me a nod". Sometimes he does, and that's terrific. Sometimes he noodles a little riff on his instrument to cue me. But when he "gets in a groove" he sometimes forgets that I'm not right there with him, and I definitely get "out of synch". Eye contact helps tremendously, and I'm not really sure how or why. We're certainly not keeping time with our eyelashes! But we do seem to be "interassured of the mind" to the extent that just eye contact communicates volumes.

As for getting "my heart" into singing, I'm working on that too...If I put "my heart" in, my EARS seem to go on vacation, and I'm prone not only to lose the beat but also to produce what I call "untimely modulations" but others call "sour notes". I think that's another whole thread--getting emotion into performance. And along the same lines of emotion, how about energy levels? Man, I'd love to get some "drive" and "energy" into my playing in such a way that it comes out of the instrument, without tying my body into knots of tension.

The only solution I know is practice, practice, practice. Boy do I wish I had more time to devote to music!

V