BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature

Subject: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:35 PM

From a San Diego Indy website:

By entering a 2-digit code in a hidden location, a second set of votes is created in the Diebold central tabulator, a program installed in 1,000 locations, which controls both paper ballots and touch-screens, each system handling up to a million votes at a time. After invoking the 2-digit trigger, this second set of votes can be changed so that it no longer matches the correct set of votes. The voting system will then read the totals from the bogus vote set. It takes only seconds to change the votes, and to date not a single location in the U.S. has implemented security measures to fully mitigate the risks. It was designed and tested over a series of a dozen version adjustments, and has been in place for four years.






Consumer Report Part 1: The Diebold GEMS central tabulator contains a stunning security hole

ISSUE: Manipulation technique found in the Diebold central tabulator -- 1,000 of these systems are in place, and they count up to two million votes at a time.

By entering a 2-digit code in a hidden location, a second set of votes is created. This set of votes can be changed, so that it no longer matches the correct votes. The voting system will then read the totals from the bogus vote set. It takes only seconds to change the votes, and to date not a single location in the U.S. has implemented security measures to fully mitigate the risks.

This program is not "stupidity" or sloppiness. It was designed and tested over a series of a dozen version adjustments.

PUBLIC OFFICIALS: If you are in a county that uses GEMS 1.18.18, GEMS 1.18.19, or GEMS 1.18.23, your secretary or state may not have told you about this. You're the one who'll be blamed if your election is tampered with. Find out for yourself if you have this problem: Black Box Voting will be happy to walk you through a diagnostic procedure over the phone. E-mail Bev Harris or Andy Stephenson to set up a time to do this.

FOR THE MEDIA: Harris and Stephenson will be in New York City on Aug. 30, 31, Sep.1, to demonstrate this built-in election tampering technique.

Members of Congress and Washington Correspondents: Harris and Stephenson will be in Washington D.C. on Sept. 22 to demonstrate this problem for you.

Whether you vote absentee, on touch-screens, or on paper ballot (fill in the bubble) optical scan machines, all votes are ultimately brought to the "mother ship," the central tabulator at the county which adds them all up and creates the results report.

These systems are used in over 30 states and each counts up to two million votes at once.

The central tabulator is far more vulnerable than the touch screen terminals. Think about it: If you were going to tamper with an election, would you rather tamper with 4,500 individual voting machines, or with just one machine, the central tabulator which receives votes from all the machines? Of course, the central tabulator is the most desirable target.

FINDINGS: The GEMS central tabulator program is incorrectly designed and highly vulnerable to fraud. Election results can be changed in a matter of seconds. Part of the program we examined appears to be designed with election tampering in mind. We have also learned that election officials maintain inadequate controls over access to the central tabulator. We need to beef up procedures to mitigate risks.

Much of this information, originally published on July 8, 2003, has since been corroborated by formal studies (RABA) and by Diebold's own internal memos written by its programmers.

Not a single location has yet implemented the security measures needed to mitigate the risk. Yet, it is not too late. We need to tackle this one, folks, roll up our sleeves, and implement corrective measures.

In Nov. 2003, Black Box Voting founder Bev Harris, and director Jim March, filed a Qui Tam lawsuit in California citing fraudulent claims by Diebold, seeking restitution for the taxpayer. Diebold claimed its voting system was secure. It is, in fact, highly vulnerable to and appears to be designed for fraud.

The California Attorney General was made aware of this problem nearly a year ago. Harris and Black Box Voting Associate Director Andy Stephenson visited the Washington Attorney General's office in Feb. 2004 to inform them of the problem. Yet, nothing has been done to inform election officials who are using the system, nor have appropriate security safeguards been implemented. In fact, Gov. Arnold Swarzenegger recently froze the funds, allocated by Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, which would have paid for increased scrutiny of the voting system in California.

On April 21, 2004, Harris appeared before the California Voting Systems Panel, and presented the smoking gun document showing that Diebold had not corrected the GEMS flaws, even though it had updated and upgraded the GEMS program.

On Aug. 8, 2004, Harris demonstrated to Howard Dean how easy it is to change votes in GEMS, on CNBC TV.

On Aug. 11, 2004, Jim March formally requested that the Calfornia Voting Systems Panel watch the demonstration of the double set of books in GEMS. They were already convened, and the time for Harris was already allotted. Though the demonstration takes only 3 minutes, the panel refused to allow it and would not look. They did, however, meet privately with Diebold afterwards, without informing the public or issuing any report of what transpired.

On Aug. 18, 2004, Harris and Stephenson, together with computer security expert Dr. Hugh Thompson, and former King County Elections Supervisor Julie Anne Kempf, met with members of the California Voting Systems Panel and the California Secretary of State's office to demonstrate the double set of books. The officials declined to allow a camera crew from 60 Minutes to film or attend.

The Secretary of State's office halted the meeting, called in the general counsel for their office, and a defense attorney from the California Attorney General's office. They refused to allow Black Box Voting to videotape its own demonstration. They prohibited any audiotape and specified that no notes of the meeting could be requested in public records requests.

The undersecretary of state, Mark Kyle, left the meeting early, and one voting panel member, John Mott Smith, appeared to sleep through the presentation.

On Aug. 23, 2004, CBC TV came to California and filmed the demonstration.

On Aug 30 and 31, Harris and Stephenson will be in New York City to demonstrate the double set of books for any public official and any TV crews who wish to see it.

On Sept. 1, another event is planned in New York City, and on Sept. 21, Harris and Stephenson intend to demonstrate the problem for Members of Congress and the Press in Washington D.C.

Diebold has known of the problem, or should have known, because it did a cease and desist on the web site when Harris originally reported the problem in 2003. On Aug. 11, 2004, Harris also offered to show the problem to Marvin Singleton, Diebold's damage control expert, and to other Diebold execs. They refused to look.

Why don't people want to look? Suppose you are formally informed that the gas tank tends to explode on the car you are telling people to use. If you KNOW about it, but do nothing, you are liable.

LET US HOLD DIEBOLD, AND OUR PUBLIC OFFICIALS, ACCOUNTABLE.

1) Let there be no one who can say "I didn't know."

2) Let there be no election jurisdiction using GEMS that fails to implement all of the proper corrective procedures, this fall, to mitigate risk.



e-mail:: [e-mail]
Homepage:: http://www.blackboxvoting.org

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:45 PM

Oh man, Amos....It's late her and my readerator is all wored out... You know how I feel about Diebold but Iz gonna have to read this stuff tomorrow...

But, without reading it I know that it's CEO has promised to "deliver" the election to Bush. I've posted this several times over the last month of three... Man, these guys are crooks...

Like I've been saying. It's gonna take 52% for Kerry to win 'cause anything less and Diebold can steal it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:53 PM

Geez but that's scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: open mike
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:00 AM

this brings new meaning to the old addage: vote early and vote often.
DIEBALD SITE

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:17 AM

We were watching a show on LinkTV yesterday evening, about this sort of thing. There was a call-in line to the show. A guy called and said he had been fired from Diebold because he complained about some built-in features that would allow Diebold to tamper with the election. He said that these features were not an accident, but that Diebold wanted them there.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:22 AM

THIS is scary

Votergate

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM

Jack: got a "404 not found" when I tried the blicky.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:33 AM

Try this one:

http://www.votergate.tv/

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:37 AM

I've been reading about this but it's still incredible. What I am curious about is what rationale do they give? There must be an official for-public-consumption reason they can give. What possible legitimate> reason are they able to give for this?

A couple of months ago I read where a community - seems to ne it was in Indiana- was so proud of their new system that they invited a known hacker to see if he could corrupt the unit's integrity. It took him less than 5 minutes.

Welcome to the new world. What's next? Routinely opening and scanning our mail?

If Bush is elected on Tuesday, I propose that we take to the streets on Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:48 AM

This evening, I saw the person in charge of that sort of thing in Florida give her reason. She said, quite confidently, that the machines work great! (Of course we know they work great if your agenda is to rig the election.)

For anyone who votes where these machines are in use, you might want to get a provisional ballot and vote that way. Even though the machine that reads the provisional ballot may be a Diebold election tampering machine, at least there will be a paper record of your vote in case they need to do a recount by hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:35 AM

It is absolutely pathetic and unprofessional. The Diebold negligence violates standards and procedures that any college student has learned about for testing and security.

Are we really this dumb!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:48 AM

It's not negligence, Amos. It's intentional.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:07 PM

In this recent article from BlackBox Voting the scandal of Diebold's influence on democratic processes is further examined. An excerpt:

Diebold Optical Scan Voting System Hacked (3 Ways)
Tuesday, 31 May 2005, 1:10 pm
Article: www.blackboxvoting.org
Diebold Optical Scan Voting System Hacked (3 Ways) - BBV Exclusive

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/ - Source URL

"Tallahassee, FL: "Are we having fun yet?"

This is the message that appeared in the window of a county optical
scan machine, startling Leon County Information Systems Officer
Thomas James. Visibly shaken, he immediately turned the machine off.

Diebold's opti-scan (paper ballot) voting system uses a curious
memory card design, offering penetration by a lone programmer such
that standard canvassing procedures cannot detect election manipulation.

The Diebold optical scan system was used in about 800 jurisdictions
in 2004. Among them were several hotbeds of controversy: Volusia
County (FL); King County (WA); and the New Hampshire primary
election, where machine results differed markedly from hand-counted
localities.

New regs: Counting paper ballots forbidden

Most states prohibit elections officials from checking on optical
scan tallies by examining the paper ballots. In Washington, Secretary
of State Sam Reed declared such spontaneous checkups to be
"unauthorized recounts" and prohibited them altogether. New Florida
regulations will forbid counting paper ballots, even in recounts,
except in highly unusual circumstances. Without paper ballot hand-
counts, the hacks demonstrated below show that optical-scan elections
can be destroyed in seconds.

A little man living in every ballot box

The Diebold optical scan system uses a dangerous programming
methodology, with an executable program living inside the electronic
ballot box. This method is the equivalent of having a little man
living in the ballot box, holding an eraser and a pencil. With an
executable program in the memory card, no Diebold opti-scan ballot
box can be considered "empty" at the start of the election.

The Black Box Voting team proved that the Diebold optical scan
program, housed on a chip inside the voting machine, places a call to
a program living in the removable memory card during the election.
The demonstration also showed that the executable program on the
memory card (ballot box) can easily be changed, and that checks and
balances, required by FEC standards to catch unauthorized changes,
were not implemented by Diebold -- yet the system was certified anyway.

The Diebold system in Leon County, Florida succumbed to multiple
attacks.

Ion Sancho: Truth and Excellence in Elections

Leon County Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho and Information Systems
Officer Thomas James had already implemented security procedures in
Leon County far exceeding the norm in elections management. This
testing, done by a team of researchers including Black Box Voting,
independent filmmakers, security expert Dr. Herbert Thompson, and
special consultant Harri Hursti, was authorized by Mr. Sancho, in an
unusual act of openness and courage, to identify any remaining holes
in Leon County's election security.

The results of the memory card hack demonstration will assist
elections supervisors throughout the U.S., by emphasizing the
critical importance of accounting for each and every memory card and
protecting access.

Findings:

Computer expert Harri Hursti gained control over Leon County memory
cards, which handle the vote-reporting from the precincts. Dr.
Herbert Thompson, a security expert, took control of the Leon County
central tabulator by implanting a trojan horse-like script.

Two programmers can become a lone programmer, says Hursti, who has
figured out a way to control the entire central tabulator by way of a
single memory card swap, and also how to make tampered polling place
tapes match tampered central tabulator results. This more complex
approach is untested, but based on testing performed May 26, Hursti
says he has absolutely no reason to believe it wouldn't work.

Three memory card tests demonstrated successful manipulation of
election results, and showed that 1990 and 2002 FEC-required
safeguards are being violated in the Diebold version 1.94 opti-scan
system."...

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:10 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/dieboldizer.jpg

by DH

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:14 PM

and here is the X chip that controls media coverage of vote fraud...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/mediaizer.jpg

by DH

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:41 PM

I know this a little off topic, but does anybody know when and why the old fashioned cross on a bit of paper and count it by hand election system was changed...

I mean reasonably sensible opinions, not the 'the vatican abduced elvis to fly spaceships' end of the conspiracy theory spectra

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Alba
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:49 PM

Ill say two words Bunnahabhain.....Hanging Chads.

Jude:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Frankham
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:18 PM

It's pretty certain that the election in Georgia was stolen.
Max Cleland should have gotten in by all accounts. It wasn't just in Florida or Ohio.

Unfortunately we have a candidate for governor who introduced the Diebold system into Georgia and she is on the wrong side of this issue, Cathy Cox.

This is something that needs to be hollered about throughout the US. The voting system is rigged.

The only solution is a paper ballot counted by a bi-partisan accounting group at the precinct level. Everything else is subject to massive fraud.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:28 PM

Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine.

Piss and moan. Piss and moan. Piss and moan.

What a life it must be to constantly feel ripped off, cheated, etc.

The conspiricy driven by the 10 or 12 of you would make good reading in the National Enquirer, or even Mad magazine.

C'mon Guests! Jump in my shit! I can't live without you! I need my daily fix of paranoid goons!

This is exactly the 1 millionth anti-Bush thread on Mudcat. I know. I've been counting and this is it!

Let's kick Al Quaida's ass!

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-RIgging Feature
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 11:25 PM

"Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine."

"Piss and moan. Piss and moan. Piss and moan."

But you do it so well, MG...

AND you're compulsive obsessive too!

"This is exactly the 1 millionth anti-Bush thread on Mudcat. I know. I've been counting and this is it!"


Just as well I'm not a conspiracy nut, or I might think that by your strong denial, that you are giving credence to the truth of it....


'The Lady doth protest too much'
W.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:11 AM

Martin would never question authority! He would have made a good German citizen back in the 40's. He thinks everything is FINE and follows ALL of the social rules so that someday, he too, can be loved and respected by politicians who don't even know he exists and who could care less.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Frankham
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM

What is not understood here is that those who ignore the systemic voting problems stand to suffer from them as well.
It's a non-partisan issue and could easily be applied to fixing an election in favor of Democrats as well as Republicans.

The system is in trouble and everyone suffers as a result.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:22 PM

I agree - In addition I think we need to overhaul the way we look at elections as a whole. The media should be interested in the topic but since they make so much money running TV ads I doubt they would want to bite the hand that feeds them. Sorry for the thread drift - but I'd love to see TV ads for elections limited to a minimum. Or eliminated altogether. Right now the politicians are being sold to America like toothpaste.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:38 PM

dianavan, we don't need bitches in canada telling us how to run our country.

Please, don't come back!

Speaking for citizens who love this country, please continue to stay out of it. It smells better here without you.

sleepless dad, spoken like a true socialist who wants to put his version of limitations on the first amendment so that you won't be so uncommmmmmmmmmmmfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:32 PM

Hmmmm, in Australia we have second rate failed US political advisors who don;t understand our laws or culture who are stuffing up the country.

I agree...

"Please, don't come back! Speaking for citizens who love this country, please continue to stay out of it. It smells better here without you."

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:48 PM

I notice MG doesn't even try to deny or investigate the claims that there may be something fishy with Diebold.....his entire repertoire is limited to saying "shut up and let your government do what it wants and don't question anything."

I sure hope I'm here when HIS party loses and conservatives get to complain.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:10 PM

When he finds himself staring out from behind the barbed wire, he'll probably still be smiling like an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:34 PM

when and why was the old fashioned cross on a bit of paper and count it by hand election system changed?
I really would like to know, and 'hanging chads' isn't an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:39 PM

Recently there has been fuss about an under 2 year old Australian Citizen being in detention. Lots of kids are in detention. None of them are smiling...

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:44 PM

paper & pencil
that's what we do in canada,
and other parts of Europe.
no electronic bullshit machines..
and we know who won the same night of the election.
A hundred years ago it used to take a couple of weeks to know who won the US election and whats wrong with that.

Its the desire to know everything right away, thats allowed the possibility of vote rigging, (along with scrubbing the voters lists).

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:23 PM

Well, wel, well....

Like I said back before the election, Kerry would need at least 52% of the vote in order to not have the election stolen... Hmmmmm? According to exit polls he got about 51%.... Wxit polls have been right on ever since they have been used but some how, with Doebold firmly in Bush's corner, they didn't hold up????

Hmmmmmmm?

Well, if there's one thing that Bush and his folks are darned good at doing it's stealing elections....

Heck, he was due... He had never suceeded at anything in his entire life...

(Well, Bobert, that's ain't exactly so.... He was a darned good womanizer, doper, drunk, no so petty theif in stealing from Harkin Energy...)

Okay, he wasn't a complete failure... Did well as a drunk & stoned crook....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:30 PM

barbed wire? Give me a break!

Yep, Kerry lost, bobert and you really can't prove nothing except you are a crybaby all of these months later because he did.

Accusations with nothing but a bunch of whine. How about some cheese with all of that whine, pal?

Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Absolutely hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:47 PM

Some things never change...

Martin's crook/president gats a little heat and he tries his highjackin' tactics yet agian...

BTW, the Cubs suck... Thay are a bunch of loosers.... Have been forever and will be forever...

But them suckin' doesn't chage some rather startling things about the last 2 presidential elections... Both were stolen by the looser....

Maybe the Cubs need to hire Diebold???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:03 PM

We just had an election here in B.C. (which is not exactly a backward country) and I did, indeed, mark my ballot with an 'X'. The votes were counted by hand and the election, although close in some places, seemed to be conducted fairly. Nobody seems to be complaining and it didn't take long for the results. I knew who won before I went to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:07 PM

bobert, the Cubs are on a 6 game winning streak.

The President's is 2.

Kerry's is zero and so is Al Gore's.

Maybe you should publish what you think about Diebold and watch them sue your sorry ass off.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:13 PM

6 games!!!!!??????.....

Does this mean they've won the World Series????..............

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:14 PM

The world Series is in October. Most real Americans know this fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:18 PM

Yeah, I know that... It seperates the winners from the loosers and guess what? The cubs are loosers just like anyone who runs in an election where Diebold is fir the other guy and...

...in charge of countin' the votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:21 PM

loosers..................losers
seperate...................separates
fir...........................for
cubs........................Cubs
countin'...........................counting

bobert, one day you should meet Mr. Webster and then educated people might take you seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:43 PM

Takes a small mind to spell in accordance to one guys opinion...

Webster was a looser, jus' like yer Cubs an' jus' like anyone who runs against Diebold...

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:49 PM

"bobert, one day you should meet Mr. Webster and then educated people might take you seriously."


The Village Idiot speaks:

-Please cut and past or someone help me with a blue clicky

My mother doesn't even know how to use a compter,

It was definately Hilary

I wouldn't like to my mother after all,

Try the product I reccommned here

He's just a total moron trying to surpress

You make me want to wretch.

That northbound babbon you are talking about

poor little ol' Mudcat sure anin't the same

You god I believe is probably the great god Calu from thje planet Mongo

And thank you from our in resident girlie-man,

****************************************************
Now let's see if he can figure out which words he misspelt.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:58 PM

Well done, Eb...

Seems as if Martin walked right into a trap you had all set up jus' fir him...

Sorry, Marty...

Seems like there are a few folks here you got yer losin' number...

Yeah, you only wished you could spell 'er write like me...

BTW, Diebold is crooks an' without 'um it would be President Kerry...

Yuck... That don't really excite me, either, but Kerry did probably win....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:47 AM

"How about some cheese with all of that whine, pal?"

But you ARE a cheese Martin!

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:58 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/dieboldnever.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: GUEST,Alba
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM

Bunnahabhain I didn't process your question properly as I was on the Diebold train of thought! Your absolutely spot on, "hanging chads" is not the answer to the question you are asking.

I have no idea why pen and paper is not the chosen method Nationwide.
It is still used where I live here in Northern Maine, but this is a very Rural area with about 400 Residents and we all use our Pens and 'X' marks the choice on the Paper Ballot.

I can think of reasons why the voting system changed but they are only my thoughts on the subject therefore not based on fact.
Hopefully someone in the 'know' will offer an answer. I am obviously not that one!:>)
Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:27 AM

I'll give you three reasons why paper ballots will not be universally used:

1. The 2000 election would have produced a President Gore.

2. The 2004 election would have produced a President Kerry.

3. Bush's party get to make the rules on voting.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:00 AM

It's been a long time since I have voted with simple pen and paper. In Oregon most of the years that I lived there, we used the lever that lined up with the candidates and punched out a square hole. It could be that that was the same method as used in Florida. It is the same method that was used in Alaska the first 10 years I was here.

At a certain point Alaska bought a new system, an Optical Scanner. This one kind of went back to the pen and paper format- you blacken the ovals, put the card into its sleeve and go over and feed it into the scanner. It is easily recounted, whether by machine or by hand.

Even in that system, however, there is a certain intuitive element in reading it. Human beings are not always mistake-free- sometimes they/we blacken TWO ovals, hoping that one is darker than the others, perhaps. I think it should be stressed by the election boards that "If you mess it up, come get another card". I have never heard anyone say that, and my guess is that some voters think that 'starting over' would be illegal. As though it were a test.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:04 AM

From National Geographic, November 1, 2004
Full article
Almost two million ballots were disqualified in the 2000 election because they registered multiple votes or none when run through vote-counting machines.

As a result of the confusion in 2000, the U.S. Congress passed the Help America Vote Act to help buy improved voting equipment and to train poll workers and election officials across the country.

While only 10 percent of voters cast their ballots electronically in 2000, almost a third of U.S. voters in tomorrow's election are expected to use electronic voting machines.

But studies have shown that electronic voting machines are less reliable than paper ballots in accurately counting votes. The Caltech-MIT Voting Technology Project, a study group set up to analyze elections dating back to 1988, found that old-fashioned lever machines were actually more accurate than electronic voting machines.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM

Bunnahabhain -(btw. your link doesn't work for me) that may well be for electronic voting machines. We do not use touch screens and we DO have a paper trail. Before I retired, I worked in the Elections Division. Last year we had a very close governor's race and hand recounted all the ballots. We ended up with just TWO ballots different and those were both intuitive calls. I must say, we were all surprised.

Keep in mind that our numbers in Alaska are MUCH smaller than they are in most other states. Some states have more cast ballots in a a county than we have in the whole state.

All of the ballots in Alaska are counted in one place- they are stuffed into large, zipper-locked bags and shipped to Juneau where they are stored in a locked jail cell until they are retrieved for examination.

Subject: RE: BS: Diebold's Vote-Rigging Feature
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:37 PM

Ebbie, it's also been a long time since you have had an orgasm with a man.

Big difference between typos and someone who can't spell.

Also a big differnce between people who are busy and people like Ebbie who probably spent way to much time pouring over old threads looking for typos.

Is this a typo? fock you, ebbie

Go Cubs! 7 straight!