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Tech: So how do I Linux?
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Subject: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Mark Cohen Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:04 AM OK, I know how lousy Windows is. But I'm not going to buy a Mac. The other day in a computer store I saw a Symantec program called Partition Magic, and it said it will let you use multiple operating systems on one computer. OK, I said, maybe it's time to try Linux, as long as I don't have to buy a new computer to do it. Now, I imagine I don't need to use that $70 program from Symantec in order to partition my hard drive and add Linux. (Or do I?) But what do I do? What kind of Linux OS should I get? Where should I get it? If Linux is "open source" does that mean I can get it for free? How do I put it on my computer without breaking it, damaging programs, or screwing up WinXP even more than it already is? (I have a Dell Inspiron 1100 laptop running WinXPPro, with a Pentium IV processor and a 30GB hard drive.) Will it run my current software? (Word, PowerPoint, Quicken, HP printer, Netscape, Noteworthy Composer) Can I easily switch back to Windows if I don't like what's happening? Anybody got any answers? Advice? Suggestions? (Yeah, right...I mean helpful ones.) Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: John MacKenzie Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:14 AM I have a freebie disc with Partition Magic on it somewhere, so it should be around, try pricelessware.com. I too wanted to try Linux, and it is supposed to be free, but there is more than one version. I have been told that Red Hat Linux is good, but I'm a bit wary of the unknown, and would prefer to see it in use before loading it onto my precious computer. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Ellenpoly Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:40 AM The good thing about Linux is that you can download it (yes, it can be found free online, but forgive me, I don't have the website) and keep your old set-up as well, thus being able to compare them before deciding to drop one for the other. When I checked it out, some months back, it looked a little technical for me, but since I didn't have my own computer, I wasn't too intense in my trying to figure it out. It did look like there were people around online willing to help, so I think it's worth at least doing the footwork. Good luck! And if you decide to do it, PLEASE post here again with the info, will you? ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: treewind Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:25 AM There is a free prog calld fips that comes with some distributions which will move and split partitions for you as apart of the installation process. Just about any Linux installer will recognise an existing Windows partition and install a suitable boot manager (typ. GRUB or LILO) to allow you to choose which system to run each time you boot. This is hardly the place to discuss the merits of Linux distributions but anyway here's a brief synopsis: Mandrake is the easiest migration from Windows - easy installer, makes all the decisions for you instead of asking questions you may not understand, pretty good online support. Red Hat is the "industry standard" favoured by many business users because there's a big company behind it. Go for the free "Fedora" distro rather than pay for the shrinkwrap box (unles you really want to do that). Installation is again quite easy. Suse - a popular alternative that I don't know much about, but a major player. Debian is the purist's (only true free software) distro and is what I use. Tends to be a little out of date but very stable and dependable. Hardware detection during installation used not to be very good but has improved hugely. Once installed, robust and easy to maintain and update. Perhaps not for beginners. Linux from Scratch, Slackware, Gentoo - all brilliant for the tech-head who wants to make a customised high performance system but again not for the inexperienced. It can't be expected to run any of your current software, unless it works under WINE which emulates Windows OS functionality and which is great when it works. But Open Office provides the functionality of, and file compatibility with, some of the programs you mention. Mozilla Firefox is the only browser to be using these days (on Windows or Linux); your HP printer will work with no problems (see www.linuxprinting.org to check) I suggest you upgrade you hard disk. 30Gb is fine for one system, but if you want to have both Windows and Linux partitions you'll be less cramped with some more disk space. 80 or 120Gb are dirt cheap now. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:12 AM As luck would have it I got a second hand Dell Latitude C800 laptop during my stay in hospital. It had XP on it but I have wanted another play with Linux and at the moment am trying to set Linux up on the laptop. I have had dual boot PCs in the past but have found it a waste of time - what happens with me is there is always something I want on Windows that I can't run on Linux so the end result is I never bother booting Linux. I'm still not sure whether I'll end up with Linux on the PC which I may make dual boot but normaly run Linux on it or on the laptop but what ever I end up with I will be be able to have 2 machines on the network running different operating systems. Anahata has commented that hard disks can be bought cheaply. While this is true for a PC, I'm not convinced you will find this is the case for your Inspiron laptop. It certainly wasn't my exeperience in my search for a larger disk for my Latitude. The cheapest (UK) I found for a 40GB drive was a Hitachi one that looked as if it would work for about £60. That was just for the drive that then needs installing in a holder to fit into the drive bay. The cheapest installed unit I found was over £90 although I suppose I could have discarded the old disk and fitted a larger one in the existing holder. The prices for the larger disks seemed to rise quite steeply though and you could easily find yourself paying quite a bit over £100 for a hard disk alone of around 80mb. It was more than I was prepared to pay... A few comments on my experiences with the Linux distributions I have tried. Firstly, I will say I have never yet managed an install that I have been completely happy with although perhaps with weeks of reseach and trail and error, I may have got there. Usually, it's some bit of hardware causing the problems. Debian: I don't know how much it has improved but when I tried it, it was a nightmare. You really needed to know every intimate detail of all your hardware to get anywhere and be prepared to do a lot of manual editing. There are people who swear by it but I think it is one for the nerds. Mandrake: I have 8.1. It will not install on my PC unless I first disable USB support in the BIOS - it crashes on device detecetion at the start of the install otherwise. I get lots of unknown devices reported in Harddrake but can achieve a pretty functional system. I have tried it on the laptop but I have yet to configure X in anyway that works - I just end up with a a blank screen - there must be a way of manually editing a config file but that's more research and time... The Harddrake project has been a major source of annoyance to me and a reason why I would not choose to try a later version of Mandrake. The idea is good - as new hardware arrives, they add support for it. The only problem is that I have tried accessing thier site to download new stuff on and off for 3 years and I have never yet managed to download anything from there. I get things like page/file not found. Suse: I downloaded a small version as an ISO image yesterday and tried installing it on the laptop. I had a lot of trouble getting a screen but was able to resolve that although I can't find a way of getting the 1024x768 I want. I have to set the monitor to 1600x1200 to get any display and end up with some screen display of 1450x???. The other problem I have had to date is with a 6 in 1 card reader I want to use. Sometimes it detects it, other times it doesn't and eventually it locks the whole computer up - I have to switch off. Overall though, I do like the look of Suse. There is a proffesional version 9.2 coming out in the UK soon, I think for around £60. I will probably end up buying this and fight as much as I have to to get it working well on one of my computers. I have not used Red Hat but it has a good reputation and had considered it along with Suse. I was a little concerned though. I found more than a few hints that Red Hat are dropping the home user market and intend concentrating more on the enterprise level solutions. I don't know if this is true but if it is, in future the only new Red Hat distributions you will be able to buy will be nearer the £1000 bracket. Finally, a lot of what I have said is negative but I do think that open source software has a lot going for it and is worth supporting. Linux is also typically stable and is improving in ease of use/setup all the while. You may be one of the lucky ones and have everything go right first time but at least be prepared that may not be the case and that you, like me, may have a lot of learning to do if problems need sorting. One other thought. I forget the name but there is one version of Linux that runs from a CD with no installation needed that others have mentioned here. If you can burn an ISO image (and have a broadband connection - it's around 700Mb), you can also try a light version of Suse out in the same way. It can be found here. Choose SUSE LINUX for i386 Live-Eval. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: treewind Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:48 AM Knoppix is the one that runs entirely from a CD. It's great for booting up on a friends PC to use it for something (doesn't touch existing software on the hard disk) but though it's possible to install a system off the Knoppix CD that doesn't give you the best HD installation for serious use later. Sorry I missed that the original system was a laptop. The fact remains that 30Gb is a bit small by modern standards for a dual boot PC. The distributions that give you more control over the installation can be better here, so you don't install too much. You can get plenty of functionality into 10Gb of course, and a good installer will tailor the amount of shovelware loaded to suit the disk capacity. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: mack/misophist Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:51 AM A few more comments: The learning curve can be steep. As a beginner, you should start with one of the easier, more user friendly distros. I use and prefer SuSE 9.1 (9.2 isn't a big enough improvement to bother with, yet). It's the most difficult flavor a newbie might be able to use successfully. Lindows is a little too simple minded. Knoppix is perfect for some one who wants to get a feel for what linux is like. Just remember that, since it runs from the cd, it will be very slow. For the complete newbie, I strongly recommend Libranet, which is Debian with some admin tools added to make it friendlier. Bear in mind that there is no professional support for home users. Forums can be very helpful but... if no one knows the answer to the question, it won't be answered. The best compromise is to find a friend who uses linux and will be willing to help. Feel free to PM me with any specific questions. Always eager for new converts. BTW, Red Hat no longer supports a home version but seems comitted to allowing it's developers to continue working on Fedora, which has an active user's forum, I'm told. Mandrake is considered 'suave' but tends to have poor hardware support. Some advance study is recommended. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:24 PM A recent eWeek announcement that you can now get servers from Dell with SuSE preinstalled. Deliveries to start in December. "Dell, which claims to have a 27 percent market share in Linux servers, will continue to provide Red Hat Inc.'s Linux distributions as well. York said that Wednesday's announcement has no impact on the company's relationship with Red Hat. However, the new SuSE bundling will give Dell a lower price point for Linux systems; the operating system comes list-priced at $175 for a single CPU and $275 for a dual-processor system. "The Red Hat offering for both one and two CPUs is $349," said York." They're talking servers, and the prices are probably OEM costs, so they may not represent anything people here are interested in. Also recently reported, an email "phishing" scam has elicited a warning from Red Hat. An email sent to many Red Hat users urges them to "click here for critical security updates from Red Hat." The click sends them to fedora-redhat.com where malware is downloaded. (The real place is fedora.redhat.com.) Apparently enough suckers clicked to cause Red Hat some concern. For details on the scam, click the headline. There's also a News Item on the right that reports some security fixes for a couple of kernel versions that may be of interest. I would echo the advice given previously that a 30GB hard drive isn't big enough to be very useful with Partition Magic and dual boot. I have a 30GB drive on a laptop running WinXP and it's barely enough to be useful with XP, much less have space for another system. I suppose one might put only the operating systems on the drive and use an external HD for all the data and maybe some productivity programs - a possible approach for the laptop where larger drives aren't available, perhaps. John |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: mack/misophist Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM Sir, It may help you decide if you know what linux actually is and why it can sometimes be so frustrating. Linux itself is just the kernel. It controls the hardware, loading device drivers and standing between the hardware, the rest of the system, and any running applications. Most of the rest of the OS comes from the GNU Foundation and is the equivalent of MSDOS - copy, paste, change directory, rename, and so on. The mouse/keyboard/monitor interface is provided be the Xfree86 project (which recently split) as the X Windows system. On top of this are a number of desktop environments such as KDE, Gnome, and many others. There are also desktop managers but they can be ignored for now. Each of these projects proceeds at it's own pace. Co-ordination is not really possible. Add to this the fact that there are over a hundred different distributions, each slightly different from the other. The differences consist mostly in where essential libraries and binaries are stored and how applications are installed and removed. Because of this, it's best to choose a flavor that offers a lot of pre-prepared installation packages such as SuSE, Mandrake, Fedora, or Debian. Packages are not usually interchangeable. Of course, all Open Source programs are available as source code that can be compiled and installed but let's leave that for later. Adding and removing programs is generally reckoned to be the biggest flaw in linux. Another flaw that the developers don't seem to notice is documentation. It's getting better but it's still not good enough. For example, indexing is almost unknown. Also, since major upgrades usually occur at least once a year, documentation updates tend to lag. Except for Red Hat, SuSE, and Mandrake, these are all volunteer efforts. I don't want to scare you away. On the other hand, I don't want to make an enemy for linux by hiding it's warts. It's worth the effort, I think. The advantages are: Virtual immunity from virus's, trojans, and much spyware. Not because we're so great but because, like MacIntosh, we're not a desirable target. And should a virus take hold, the system structure would minimize damage. Almost all software is free. Using linux is a nice little ego boost. The biggest drawback is the inability to use most windows software (There's no registry in linux, to begin with.) As a practical matter, the only important one is Photoshop in some, but not all, of it's versions. Visit codeweavers.com (One of the few 'for pay' programs) to see what they support. In closing, I strongly urge you to start with Libranet Linux, the most user friendly distro I know of. The only caveat is, don't use the admin tool to do a 'system upgrade'. Just don't. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Mark Cohen Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:24 AM Well, I'm glad we've got that settled! Sounds like all things being equal I'm going to be better off sticking to what I have. The most frustrating thing about this system is that it's so #!!@%*! SLOW. I finally understand why, thanks to JohninKansas: it's the laptop hard drive, which is about 10x slower than the desktop variety. It would be helpful if Microsoft would make a version of XP that accommodated to slow laptop hard drives. Of course, putting the word "helpful" in the same sentence with Microsloth is an automatic contradiction in terms... Looks like Linux is going to have to wait until I save up for my new system. And by that time, everything will be different, I'm sure. Sometimes I wish I still had my Epson Equity I, with 256kb of memory and an a: drive and a b: drive. Back in the days of PC-Write: now there was a program! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Nov 04 - 06:39 AM Can still get it... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Nov 04 - 06:57 AM I have just installed Red Hat on my PC - Took all the defaults and it installed Linux quite happily leaving W2K where it was and giving me a boot loader. Bargain! I now have a dual boot W2K / Red Hat Linux PC installed with no fuss, no partition manager (apart from Red Hats own internal one) all done in the space of about 30 minutes. I'm impressed. Doesn't take much though... What I am going to do with RHL is another kettle of fish altogether! Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: treewind Date: 02 Nov 04 - 07:36 AM Well, here's some of the things you won't be doing with RHL: - Running virus scans - Installing adware and spyware detector programs - paying for software upgrades - defragging your hard drive - getting your PC turned into a spam-relay - rebooting it every time you install a driver or change the network configuration - rebooting it because a program crashed and took the OS with it Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: mack/misophist Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:13 AM Thanks, treewind. It's been so long since I had to do any of those things that I forgot about them. Not that linux programs never crash. But they don't take down the system when they do. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 02 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM Mark - I seem to recall that there is a "version" of WinXP which takes up a lot less space and loads and runs much faster on PCs with a slower configuration. What did they call it..... Oh yes - Windows 3.1 Quack!! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM Actually "Workgroups for Windows" was slightly better... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: mack/misophist Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:21 PM My wife won't use anything but windows 98se. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:57 AM I would happily pay a few dollars for a 'Final Service Pack' CD with all the updates (Needs the original CD) to any and or all the 'no longer supported' versions of the various Microsoft OSes - some older ones are what is needed for perfectly serviceable old machines. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Piers Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:13 AM Out of interest, are any of you Linux buffs credulous of the 'total cost of ownership' argument (that is, as I understand it, though the Linux based OSs are basically free it you pay more than you would to microsoft in terms making your hardware work)? Piers |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:42 AM It's the 'total DOLLAR cost of ownership' argument - you have to do some considerable part of the work yourself... I'm a pro-Linux person actually... but I really feel that many people would be better suited to Windoze... just as I really feel that many people would be better suited to Taxis or Public Transport than driving their own cars really.... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: treewind Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:02 AM The TCO "get the facts" campaign is Microsoft FUD based on carefully selected examples, misleading statistics and paid-for "independent" surveys. Sysadmins who have significant experience of maintaining both Linux and Windows networks say Linux is far less trouble*. At least one who runs a web hosting business actually charges his clients more for running IIS/Windows servers than Apache/Linux because of the greater work involved. Linux sysadmins are more expensive because there are fewer around and technical knowledge is required, but ironically they have to do less work (so actually a given size network requires fewer admin staff) (Actually it's a myth that Linux requires tech expertise and Windows doesn't. To keep a Windows network secure needs just as much knowledge really, it just gives the illusion that it doesn't because it's easy to install in the first place.) For the home user I admit it's never going to be an easy migration. Pre-installed software that works straight out of the box versus stuff you have to install from a CD and then has a different user interface and mostly different applications... it took me a long time and I'm supposed to be a software engineer! Anahata *I run a Linux server for an office with about half a dozen Windows workstations. The only time I touch the server is to change backup tapes. The only time it's been rebooted this year was for the PAT tester (electrical safety check) when it had to be disconnected from the power. Even changing our internet connection from ISDN dialup on the server to a separate firewall PC and then from that to ADSL broadband didn't require rebooting for any reason. In a previous job there were Windows NT servers that required tasks restarting nearly every day. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Piers Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:59 AM Thanks Treewind, I had suspicions that the TCO idea was highly specious. I am in the process of migrating to Linux OS for home/work use, I'm glad to hear it took you a while (in the nicest possible sense). Piers |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: mack/misophist Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:00 AM As a rule of thumb, the people most suited to install linux are windows power users - the sort who get a kick out of going on the web to find out how to fix or improve things for themselves. If this doesn't describe you , then a friendly nerd is the best bet. Many of us are eager to move friends and relatives "away from the dark side." Once the installation is up and running, the TCO is more or less limited to the electric bill and the monthly ISP payment. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:40 AM Just a little bit of feedback as I'd commented on hardware problems. After a few other attempts, I eventually decided to get Suse Linux Professional 9.2. It arrived today and I have just installed it. The only problem I have found is with my tv card which is detected correctly but doesn't work. Other than that, every hardware device appears be fine and all installed without a need to search for manufacturers CDs (or in my case sometimes do an internet search for drivers). This is a huge step up for me, not only with attempts at Linux but also with Windows (latest version I have is 2K pro - not tried XP) where I have often found myself not only searching for drivers but on occasions fighting with devices Windows has either failed to detect, or as with a card reader recently wrongly detected and insisted on loading the CDs Win 98 drivers. Overall it seems to be so far so good and there seems to be plenty of good software on the 5CD set. I haven't read properly yet but at first glance, the documentation looks comprehensive with both a users guide and an administration book supplied. Jon (off to read a bit more of the books before playing around any more) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: NH Dave Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:08 PM Geoff, A couple of weeks ago, Fred Langa, an InfoWorld columnist who does a computer newsletter, did a bit on "Windows Lite" a couple of programs that can trim the various versions of Windows down to less than 100 mb of space. This article is also available at Langa Article , for those who want more information. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:34 AM There is a new Linux release, Mandrake I believe, that boots _and runs_ from the CD - was on a few PC mags - it does not need to touch your partitions at all, because it uses a USB Memory Drive to save your personal directory stuff on - you have a completely portable Linux system, that will run on almost any PC, you just slip in the CD & UMB... great for the completely timid, can't wreck your Windows OS if you leave all partitions on the hard drive alone, no reformatting etc needed. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: treewind Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:55 AM Knoppix is one of the best known for that - booting and running entirely off the CD. I don't know if it supports storing your data on a USB drive but my experience of Linux and USB lately is that you just plug in the drive, mount it and use it. You can also intall knoppix to the HD, but the result isn't as good as a distro designed to be installed. But knoppix is brilliant for borrowing a friend's PC to run something without touching the existing OS installation. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:20 PM Mandrake Move - fully portable - issued with Australian PC User iss no 42 Dec 2004 a full distro - GIMP, Open Office, Audacity, CD/DVD burner, more, etc probably will turn up on other mags in other countries. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:48 PM Mags here in the UK are reportingprobs withthe latest SuSE. I would really love to set up a linux machine and kiss microsnot off. When I get my next upgrade I might try it on an older machine - format C and really go for clean. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Rapparee Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM Were it up to me, my Library would be running only Linux-based machines. However...we're supported by the City's IT Dept., and they're currently committed to Microsloth products. Fortunately, we're semi-independent and they don't care what software we use if a) we have the necessary licenses, b) we fix it ourselves if it breaks, and c) it will interact with their software and network without causing problems. So I run Wordperfect instead of the City-standard Word, Quattro Pro instead of Excel, Presentations instead of Power Point. Again, if I had my way (hey, that sounds like a good line for a song!) I'd be running something like RHL or SuSE with a KDE or Gnome desktop and Open Office or something similar. Up the Bazaar and down with the Cathedral! |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:16 AM Well having now tried Mandrake Move, I was absolutely stunned at the ease with which it set itself up. The only thing it didn't like was my old Imation 1.44Mb/120Mb dual 'floppy', and I'm not really surprised by that... It wrote an 8Mb 'build file' to the UMB (so it's doing a lot of work on install!), along with my new user directory, and other stuff it needs, recognising the UMB immediately, and not interfering with the stuff already there from Win98. I used the UMB to transport some music files to test the player. Just copied the files over in Win 98, reboot with the Linux Cd, etc... Mandrake Move recognises the FAT 32 formatted UMB as standard. You beaut games - lots! and OpenOffice and multiple desktops, a choice of shells - very impressed - should be very easy for a total newbie who reads the tutorial to pick up real quick. A few things like some older H/W and printers, etc may need you to track down some drivers of course. And if you really want to set up the HD partitions to talk directly to Linux, you can too. You can even install Mandrake to the HD, but the whole point of this distribution is that you just don't have to! Runs at a reasonable speed from the CD (48X) too. You can set up your net connection (write down your details from within Windows first!), adjust the monitor size and details, etc. Very Good! |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 04 Dec 04 - 08:51 AM Format C: Richard? That's one thing you will probably not have to do if/when you install Linux. The install programs that come with Mandrake, Suse and I presume others will do that for you as well as partition the disk. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: mack/misophist Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:14 AM One small caveat; I have to share files with a windows machine and samba has never worked properly for me. However, a free download called smb4k fixed that quite handily. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:25 PM A Mandrake Move progress report. While most things seem to work pretty well, a few notes. I have a PIII 1G 512 Mb Once loaded, it runs pretty quick - until it needs something off the CD - normal CD access speed applies - a HD install would speed those bits up. First Access only of new SW like Open Office etc is a bit slower too. Maybe a disk cache is being used. There is a Swapfile. I have a CD reader and a CD writer - it setup both as read only - reasonable failsafe approach - just change the writer to be writable. I tried to access the floppy drive and it crashed - just that bit - the OS itself is stable. It crashed because I had no floppy in the drive - sad that - rather disappointed that such a simple error check was not implemented.... It had no midi player installed - you need to get some more s/w, - but it played .wav & .mp3 ok. Only thing is that the sound level output was much lower than when in windows - I needed to turn up the speaker volume on the box itself, then turn it down in windows. Also it stuffed around with the screen (max res 800x640 as standard) - I normally like 1024 resln in windows - shifting the screen around so it needs to be realigned between Win & Linux. - minor hassle. UNIX tricks that I already know (file locations, mounting disks etc - things that are very different to the Win Way), because I have used UNIX variants for ages are all covered in the included tutorial which is highly recommended for newbies to work thru slowly and thoroughly first. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Apr 22 - 12:42 PM This is an old thread, but topical, so I'll post this here and if it belongs in a more current thread, someone can post it there also. Microsoft warns: These flaws could give attackers root privileges on Linux desktops Microsoft has discovered flaws that could be combined to gain root privileges on Linux systems. Microsoft has discovered vulnerabilities in system components commonly used on Linux desktops that could allow an attacker to elevate privileges to root and install malware. The rest of the story is on the linked page. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Jon Freeman Date: 27 Apr 22 - 01:24 PM Thanks SRS. As far as I can see networkd-dispatcher is part of systemd-networkd which apparently is one of the networking alternatives on Linux. As far as I know, everything I have is using either wicked or network-manager. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Stanron Date: 27 Apr 22 - 01:43 PM It's rather rich of Microsoft to criticise Linux for something that has been an uncorrected major Windows flaw for decades. Is Linux beginning to steal some of Windows' market share? I've just read through the thread and realised how much Linux has come on since 2004. On Sunday I put a new Solid State Drive in my desktop and did a fresh install of Linux Mint 20.3 with a Cinnamon desktop. It's a very nice system and a painless install. It wasn't helped by the fact that my 4G Wi-Fi died on Saturday evening and I had to do my updates on an old 3G device. But this morning the Postman brought me a new 4g device and a powered HD to USB thingy that allows me to get files from old hard drives. Happy days. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: DaveRo Date: 27 Apr 22 - 03:16 PM I don't think MS is particularly criticising Linux in raising these bugs. It's the kind if thing they should be looking for, given that MS are promoting Linux running on Windows in the form of WSL. Though I suspect that MS's public relations department enjoys making a song and dance over what is, actually, a fairly minor and run-of-the-mill bug. It's already been fixed upstream - most systems will be patched in a couple of days. I don't expect a campaign of Linux ransomeware. It only affects desktop systems, which are about 2% of users. It doesn't affect servers, of which most are Linux. Compared with the recent log4j bug - which is still not universally patched - or the Spectre vulnerabilities, which were baked-into years of Intel processors - this is trivial. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Apr 22 - 04:26 PM Your "powered HD to USB thingy" - what is that? I found it easy to connect computers (one isn't on the network, it finally refused to connect to anything, but as old as it was everything else worked well and the software was worth more than the computer so I didn't reinstall the OS and lose the software, I just got a new computer.) Now I do some of my work on the old computer and I have a transfer cable that acts like a drive. There is software loaded in the fat end of the cable and each computer connects to the software and I drag stuff back and forth very easily. About $30 at Radio Shack. My old computer has things like the old free Windows Movie Maker that is your basic reliable editing software but you can't get it any more. Plus it has the last versions of Adobe software that was released on disks, but I don't have the disks. I keep thinking Linux is something I'll play with one of these days, but that day hasn't arrived yet. When my son went to the university he took a computer he put together himself and I wanted to save money so called the school to ask if they had a free or cheap version of the Windows OS (my university had that agreement with Microsoft). My son was entering the Computer Science program - we were told they'd be using Linux once he was doing the coursework but told us how to get the Windows. Now years later he's still a Linux user. Hopefully it doesn't take a college degree to learn how to use it. :) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Stanron Date: 27 Apr 22 - 05:46 PM "Your "powered HD to USB thingy" - what is that? " When I put the new Solid State hard drive in the desk top I removed the old 'rotating' hard drive. The idea was to do a clean install on the new drive and then copy wanted files from the external old drive to the new without having to dismantle the machine a second time. On 2.5 inch SATA drives this can be done with a simple SATA to USB cable. My old drive turned out to be a 3.5 inch drive and for those the cable has to be powered with 5 volts DC or it can't spin the disk. So I had to order a powered cable. You can do the same thing with the older IDE drives but that needs a different cable again. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Apr 22 - 03:37 AM I think the SUSE 9.2 version I mentioned back then wound up was probably the one I used to move away from Windows as the main OS here. I've chosen Suse/OpenSuse for quite a few years now and it's on all the PCs/laptops here except my new Dell laptop. I had trouble with graphic card switching (it's an Intel/nVidia model) and, as Dell seem to work with Ubuntu, decided to try one the Ubuntu family. I'm probably in a minority as I don't like Ubuntu itself and prefer a Plasma 5 desktop and generally prefer kde apps to gnome ones so I chose Kubuntu. I've been happy with this. SRS, just download an ISO that can be run live, burn it to a flash drive and run it from that. Or try a couple. With the desktops, you will find different looks and feels as well as default app selections. Coming back to Ubuntu, you would probably find the Kubuntu variant closer to your Win 10 experience than you would Ubuntu if that was what you wanted. It may sound a touch confusing but it's a world of choice and people will find their own favourites which suit them best. Must try to remember where I put my (2.5 and 3.5) USB to Sata cable. I think I've only used it when I fitted a ssd in dad's laptop but it's a handy device to have. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Stanron Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:41 AM Linux Mint is also in the Ubuntu family. My understanding is that Ubuntu was developed as an operating system for use in Africa. I find the colours are too intense, or garish, for my taste. My memory of it is mainly lots of deep purple. I prefer the light greys and pale blues of rainy Manchester UK and Linux Mint gives me that. The basic structure of the operating systems, or Kernal, may well be identical but the colours and layout of the presentation are what differs. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: DaveRo Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:51 AM Stanron wrote: I've just read through the thread and realised how much Linux has come on since 2004.Yes, I remember looking at all the the linux flavours treewind mentioned in that post of 2004: Mandrake (with its yellow stars) Red Hat, Slackware, Gentoo... No Ubuntu back then. I chose SuSE mainly because it was European, and tried out SuSE 6.2 under KDE. I've used every version of SuSE since then, though I dropped KDE because they added fancy visual effects and unneccesary features (just like Windows did in 7) so I now use the much simpler XFCE. There's no reason for a long-time Windows user to change Linux if they can afford to keep hardware up to date and are happy with where Microsoft is going. Many Linux distros overemphasise their similarity to Windows, and people start using it expecting it to be the same. They often come unstuck the first time something doesn't work - a trivial configuration issue can completely stump them. On another forum recently I tried to help somebody who'd used a windows-like distro for several years and kept telling everyone how easy it was. And it was - while he stuck to the defaults. He decided to change browser from Firefox to Chromium but found that his links in Thunderbird still opened in Firefox. He thought it would be like Windows - just change the default browser. He didn't know what a Desktop Environment was, or which one he was using, or what a protocol handler does, or the difference between that and a mime-type handler... I do think you need to be technically curious, adventurous even, to use Linux. Don't expect it to be like Windows or you'll be disappointed. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:58 AM I think Mint uses Ubuntu as its base rather than being part of the family. I couldn't see it now when I looked at downloads but Mint also used to offer a Debian (which I think Ubuntu uses as it's starting point) based version. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "basic structure" but one thing that does vary is the layout of system files. I might for example find instructions for Ubuntu when looking for help (it's the most popular after all) and have to adapt them slightly for OpenSuse. Package management is another thing that varies. Ubuntu is deb based and Opensuse rpm based so instructions to apt-get won't work... It's easy usually though - the basic ideas remain the same. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Stanron Date: 28 Apr 22 - 05:37 AM I'll bow to your better knowledge Jon. To be honest I'd go to a supermarket and buy a Linux magazine that had a bootable CD or DVD enclosed and try it. Mint was the first one that worked and that I liked. Once it was up and running it was like being freed from a tyranny. A warning to anyone dipping their toe in these waters. Running an operating system from an external drive, DVD or USB, is a lot slower than running it from an installed hard drive. You get to see what it looks like and what it takes to navigate the system, then if you do install it you get a pleasant surprise in how fast it can be. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: DaveRo Date: 28 Apr 22 - 05:39 AM I wrote: He didn't know what a Desktop Environment was, or which one he was using, or what a protocol handler does, or the difference between that and a mime-type handler...and I should have added: he wasn't interested in finding out about these things. He wanted it to 'just work'. Fair enough, but if you're not interested in that sort of technical detail, even to solve a problem, use Windows - or a Mac. This, about that vulnerability, is amusing: https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/27/microsoft-linux-vulnerability/ |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Piers Plowman Date: 28 Apr 22 - 05:50 AM Although my profession was computer programming before I retired, I bought my first computer last year. I have the Ubuntu distribution of GNU/Linux. (The Free Software foundation encourages people to say "GNU/Linux" rather than just "Linux" because the system wouldn't work at all without all the hard work that developers of GNU software put into their packages --- it's not just the operating system kernel, i.e., what the term "Linux" actually refers to.) I use the GNOME desktop with a gray background and have the brightness and contrast of my monitor turned down fairly low. Working on it is more comfortable than it's ever been for me at the various jobs I've had and the other places, like libraries or copy shops, where I've worked at the computer. I have an ergonomic keyboard and mouse and have gotten so used to them that I have a hard time using ordinary ones. I think everything should be ergonomic! I started using various Unix and Unix-like systems in 1991. At first, they were commercial versions of Unix and then the computer center where I worked started having GNU/Linux. They also had a workstation with FreeBSD on it, which I used once in a while. I really don't like KDE, too colorful, too much "Schnick-schnack", as we say in German. I especially hate animated things on computer screens, like the idiotic paperclip they used to have in Windows ("Karl Klammer", in German). Back in the day, I got along perfectly well just with X-windows (the real name is "X11"), though I've gotten used to having icons to click on and some things, like a file explorer (or whatever it's called) can be useful. Aside from a browser, I do most of my work on the computer from within the text editor Emacs. Since I'm a graphics programmer, I do appreciate not just having a screen with green letters, like the ones when I first started with computers (I missed out on punchcards). Of course, I use other graphical programs, like Audacity or Flowblade, etc. If anyone wants to use GNU/Linux, I would definitely encourage them to do so and would be glad to bore them to death with technical details of the things I know about. I do recommend learning how to use the "shell" a.k.a "the command line". One learns a great deal more about the computer that way than just using graphical user interfaces. By the way, this is a link to my personal website, in case anyone wants to have a look, with links to my other ones, including one involving my work as a (GNU) programmer: Laurence Finston's Website. Laurence Finston |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Daniel Kelly Date: 28 Apr 22 - 08:03 AM As a Linux user since 1994, I was inspired to write this song about the GNU/Linux history. GNU's Not Unix In response to the comment that revived this thread, these types of critical vulnerabilities are announced weekly (daily?) in relation to Microsoft products. The good thing about the Linux community is that it will be fixed quickly and transparently (if it isn't fixed already). Daniel Kelly, |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Piers Plowman Date: 28 Apr 22 - 08:34 AM I enjoyed the song and especially liked the lyre. Did you build it yourself? I don't mean to go on about it, but I think there's a matter of credit where credit is due: With all due respect to Richard Stallman and Linus Torvalds, they didn't do all the work themselves. Without a compiler, linker and loader, just for a start, nothing would work. To say nothing of Ada Lovelace and Charles Babbage! Maybe you could consider a couple hundred more verses to honor everyone? As far as bug reports are concerned, programming is approx. 90% debugging (if you're lucky). |
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Subject: RE: Tech: So how do I Linux? From: Stanron Date: 28 Apr 22 - 08:56 AM Plus one for Ada Lovelace and Charles Babbage but let's not forget Tommy Flowers as well. Perhaps he is the most important of all. |
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