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BS: possibly moving to Canada

Alice 03 Nov 04 - 09:00 AM
Little Hawk 03 Nov 04 - 09:06 AM
Bobert 03 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 03 Nov 04 - 09:20 AM
Rapparee 03 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM
*daylia* 03 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM
Morticia 03 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM
Mooh 03 Nov 04 - 09:50 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 03 Nov 04 - 09:56 AM
Big Mick 03 Nov 04 - 09:57 AM
Bearheart 03 Nov 04 - 10:17 AM
dianavan 03 Nov 04 - 10:39 AM
Janie 03 Nov 04 - 10:56 AM
GUEST 03 Nov 04 - 11:03 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 04 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Larry K 03 Nov 04 - 11:14 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM
Big Mick 03 Nov 04 - 11:31 AM
GUEST 03 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 03 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM
Once Famous 03 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM
Bardford 03 Nov 04 - 11:53 AM
Stilly River Sage 03 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM
UB Ed 03 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,heric 03 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM
katlaughing 03 Nov 04 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,heric 03 Nov 04 - 12:33 PM
Janie 03 Nov 04 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Charmion at work 03 Nov 04 - 01:15 PM
TS 03 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Nov 04 - 02:01 PM
SINSULL 03 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM
GUEST 03 Nov 04 - 02:18 PM
Alice 03 Nov 04 - 02:26 PM
annamill 03 Nov 04 - 02:37 PM
Janie 03 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM
Devilmaster 03 Nov 04 - 02:54 PM
ToulouseCruise 03 Nov 04 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 03 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM
chris nightbird childs 03 Nov 04 - 03:06 PM
annamill 03 Nov 04 - 03:09 PM
Ebbie 03 Nov 04 - 03:20 PM
Metchosin 03 Nov 04 - 03:22 PM
Metchosin 03 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM
Charmion 03 Nov 04 - 03:28 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Nov 04 - 03:51 PM
GUEST 03 Nov 04 - 03:51 PM
DougR 03 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM
GUEST 03 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Nov 04 - 04:13 PM
Metchosin 03 Nov 04 - 04:33 PM
Bev and Jerry 03 Nov 04 - 04:37 PM
Metchosin 03 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM
Janie 03 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM
Peace 03 Nov 04 - 07:51 PM
Little Hawk 03 Nov 04 - 08:38 PM
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Blackcatter 03 Nov 04 - 09:13 PM
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*daylia* 03 Nov 04 - 09:45 PM
Metchosin 03 Nov 04 - 10:05 PM
Metchosin 03 Nov 04 - 10:30 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Nov 04 - 11:37 PM
Bardford 04 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM
katlaughing 04 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM
Devilmaster 04 Nov 04 - 01:49 AM
Ellenpoly 04 Nov 04 - 02:47 AM
dianavan 04 Nov 04 - 03:45 AM
GUEST 04 Nov 04 - 06:10 AM
*daylia* 04 Nov 04 - 06:54 AM
Willie-O 04 Nov 04 - 08:01 AM
Willie-O 04 Nov 04 - 08:35 AM
Janie 04 Nov 04 - 09:12 AM
Ebbie 04 Nov 04 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Bardford 04 Nov 04 - 01:31 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Nov 04 - 01:58 PM
chris nightbird childs 04 Nov 04 - 02:00 PM
Cluin 04 Nov 04 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,heric 04 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM
Metchosin 04 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM
Devilmaster 04 Nov 04 - 09:01 PM
Cluin 04 Nov 04 - 09:12 PM
dianavan 04 Nov 04 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,Liberal Flight 04 Nov 04 - 09:31 PM
Cluin 04 Nov 04 - 09:44 PM
Janie 04 Nov 04 - 10:36 PM
Susan A-R 04 Nov 04 - 11:25 PM
*daylia* 05 Nov 04 - 07:50 AM
TS 05 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM
Mooh 05 Nov 04 - 10:39 AM
InOBU 05 Nov 04 - 10:43 AM
TS 05 Nov 04 - 10:56 AM
Paco Rabanne 05 Nov 04 - 11:06 AM
*daylia* 05 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM
Paco Rabanne 05 Nov 04 - 11:17 AM
TS 05 Nov 04 - 12:00 PM
DougR 05 Nov 04 - 12:00 PM
InOBU 05 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM
TS 05 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM
Metchosin 05 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM
Cluin 05 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM
InOBU 05 Nov 04 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,amergin 05 Nov 04 - 03:35 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Nov 04 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Larry K 05 Nov 04 - 04:10 PM
Metchosin 05 Nov 04 - 04:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Nov 04 - 06:09 PM
Susan A-R 05 Nov 04 - 09:24 PM
Alice 05 Nov 04 - 09:31 PM
dianavan 05 Nov 04 - 10:04 PM
dianavan 05 Nov 04 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 05 Nov 04 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,Patrick Henry 05 Nov 04 - 11:18 PM
*daylia* 06 Nov 04 - 07:51 AM
*daylia* 06 Nov 04 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Obie 06 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Obie 06 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM
Metchosin 06 Nov 04 - 02:06 PM
Willie-O 06 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM
*daylia* 07 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM
dianavan 07 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Frank 07 Nov 04 - 03:09 PM
Cluin 07 Nov 04 - 03:11 PM
*daylia* 07 Nov 04 - 05:49 PM
InOBU 08 Nov 04 - 06:09 AM
*daylia* 08 Nov 04 - 07:28 AM
dianavan 08 Nov 04 - 10:31 AM
*daylia* 08 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM
*daylia* 08 Nov 04 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Larry K 08 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM
*daylia* 08 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM
Amos 08 Nov 04 - 07:15 PM
dianavan 08 Nov 04 - 08:55 PM
Ebbie 08 Nov 04 - 09:15 PM
TS 09 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM
*daylia* 09 Nov 04 - 01:19 PM
Amos 09 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,donuel 09 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM
InOBU 09 Nov 04 - 07:47 PM
pdq 23 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM
dianavan 23 Nov 04 - 04:35 PM
CarolC 23 Nov 04 - 10:05 PM
mike_in_st_c 24 Nov 04 - 12:59 AM
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dianavan 24 Nov 04 - 02:29 AM

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Subject: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Alice
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:00 AM

In the past few years I've been thinking about moving to Canada. This morning I started researching the process online. British Columbia is very attractive to me, even though I could go straight north from Montana to Alberta. Any Mudcatters in BC who would like to send me a personal message, please feel free to do so.

Alice Flynn in Montana


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:06 AM

I hope you succeed in that, Alice. I am located in Ontario, though, and that's a long way from BC. You will find much beautiful land in both BC and Alberta. It's great out there. BC is more "liberal", though. :-) Alberta is cowboy country.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM

I'm considering New Zealand, mah seff. I just don't like all that cold weather and shoveling snow...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:20 AM

Heelo, I saw about Canada on TV, they have got dangerous animals there, like bares, and big cats [like tigers etc], i won't move there, its to dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM

Not many cougars and bears live in downtown Banff, or Calgary, or Edmonton, or Vancouver, or even Moosejaw or Yellowknife, j0hn. The exact population of dangerous animals in such places is EXACTLY the same as for Hull.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM

The only free-roaming tigers in Canada are the Hamilton TiCats, Sir jOhn. And the TiCats haven't been much of a threat to anyone for years, if I'm remembering correctly.

Also, we do have a lot of bears, but not bares. It's too cold around here for bares.

But never too cold for beers! Or too interesting for bores. Or too uppity for boors. So, what are you waiting for? Come hither all ye disillusioned and disenfranchised ... we've definitely got enough geography for you!

As long as you can afford our taxes, that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Morticia
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM

I'd say on balance that Hull is prolly more dangerous, John.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:50 AM

Alice...I hope you come. Canada's not Eden, but we're a peaceful lot. B.C. is good, but if you don't mind the distance, P.E.I. is great. I'm in southern Ontario, but away from T.O. Good luck!

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:56 AM

In programme, [it was one of them "how to move house programs",
some people went to canada, and the programme bloke said to them "dont let your kids play in the woods, or bears will eat them"


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:57 AM

Our loss would be Canada's gain, Alice. Wherever you go, let us know, eh? You are one that is on my list as a "must visit" before I depart this place. My sister lived in Vancouver and I have visited there and roamed BC. It is a wonderful place, spectacular country, and a very warm feel to it.

By the way, I haven't seen an update on how the young lad is doing. How about it?

All the very best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Bearheart
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:17 AM

Not to be depressing, but seriously, my mother (75) and aunt (60?) are so upset about the election they are threatening to go to Canada. Mom's in here in southern Ohio, my aunt is in Pittsburgh.

How practical is this really? I think if they really do it, it would be good if they were somewhere in Ontario to be closer to us. But isn't it going to be fairly expensive? What are their options? Any ideas would be welcome.

I keep telling them that they won't be able to change things here if they leave, but they are feeling tired and angry. It's hard to know what to say to them.

Bekki


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:39 AM

I made the move to Canada and have never regretted it. Sure I miss not having my family around but I have such good friends here, I can't complain.

Bobert - There is no more snow here in Vancouver than in Seattle. Its a little colder but its often sunny and clear. The rain is typical rain-forest rain.

Bearheart - I don't think it would be as easy for older people as it would be for younger people. It is not easy adjusting to another country (even if we do speak English).

Bears? - Yes, I've met a few but only in the bush. Not in the city.

Don't forget - There's a reason for all those social programs. We have very high taxes! Most people feel its worth it. I'm happy to live in a country that has high educational standards and health care for all. Looks like there is an excellent child care package in the works, as well.

Canada is an excellent place to raise a family.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Janie
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:56 AM

We are looking at Canada and New Zealand, but most likely Canada so that our families are still within "striking distance." If we were childless we probably wouldn't consider leaving the USA. We'd stay here and continue to work for change, but I'll be damned if my 10 year old son is going to get drafted into the religious crusade that our government has started, and that it looks like an unfortunate number of US citizens support.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:03 AM

I've been considering moving to Canada for a long time, though my desire has nothing to do with the election results. But with my youngest baby heading off to Italy in January for a seven month stay, with instructions to check out moving over there, I haven't quite decided yet. I also want to look into Tunisia.

But I'm here until my parents are gone. All the same, it doesn't hurt to plan ahead! I'm tired of the winters, even though we gave up our house for apartment living when our youngest graduated high school, so we wouldn't have to do maintenance. Now I have a patio garden with raised beds, lots of containers, and I'm happy as a clam with that. No more house maintenance for us!

If the draft gets reinstated, Canada may be seeing a lot more Americans heading their way.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:12 AM

The trees in Canada go a very funny colour in October, a bit gaudy really. I've decided to stay in Stoke. Unlesss the mayoral elections go the wrong way in May, in which case I may go to Hull.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:14 AM

I have relatives in Canada and for the most part love the people I know in Canada.   My biggest problem is that no one in Canada knows how to make Ice Tea.    You cannot get a brewed unsweetened Ice Tea in the entire country.    I have a problem moving to a country that does not know how to make ice tea.

They also don't take Discover Cards in Canada.   I would fire the Canadian Discover salesman in a heartbeat.    That 1/2 point is important to me and pays for Summerfolk.    If I moved to Canada I would lose that 1/2 point rebate because no one accepts it.

The biggest reason for moving to Canada is Tim Hortons, but they have opened a number of Tim Hortons in Michigan.    That took away the main reason to move.

The last reason to move was to see the Stanley Cup.   They brought the cup to my company a few months ago and it was cool to see it up close.   I guess it is easier to see the cup in the states than it is in Canada. I do think they should allow a Canadian team to win it every 10 years or so.

Canadian gardens are beautiful.   I think the nicest gardens I have ever seen in my life are the Queen Elizabeth gardens in Halifax.   Windsor also is lovely with Jackson Park and Coventry Gardens.   I am still looking for a garden in Detroit and one day I may even find one.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM

No offense to Canada, but for those of you who are going to move because of an election result - good riddance. If you give up the fight because you lose one battle, you aren't helping and we don't need you.   If you think all the changes that we need have been stopped because of one man, you are dead wrong. 49% of the population did not vote for Bush. Those kind of numbers can affect change.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:31 AM

Ron, I must have missed something. I don't think that Alice ever mentioned that as being her reason. My response is based strictly on the fact that I have come to know Canada as a result of friends in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. Various hinterland places there, as well.

I think Alice would like the atmosphere.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM

"49% of the population did not vote for Bush. Those kind of numbers can affect change."

Not unless they stop voting for loser Republicrats they won't. Jesus Ron, is that much not bloody obvious?

Kerry was supposed to be the "most electable" remember? The Republicrats are screwed. Seriously screwed. The progressives are most definitely going to bailing on the Republicrats after this colossal of a loss.

I think maybe Ron has drunk too long at the Republicrat koolaid fountain.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM

Qoute="Canada is an excellent place to raise a family"
What, and have them eaten by bears?
No thanks!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM

Sour Grapes!!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM

Alice,

My sincere apologies for misreading. It was a late night and I wasn't thinking clearly.

In the past few weeks too many people have been saying they would leave the country if Bush is re-elected.   When I saw your heading I over-reacted. I really apologize.

Canada is a lovely country that I enjoy visiting. A bit to cold for me, but if you are leaving for good reasons then I wish you well.

Again, my apologies for my foolish post.

Ron


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Bardford
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:53 AM

Actually, if I was a bear, I'd be thinking about moving away from Canada, just to be safe. Here are some stats:

Bear attack stats

And the populace may be more liberal in BC, but the "Liberal" gov't there seems to be further to the right than the good ole boys we got running Alberta. Used to be the name of the party had some meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM

If you move to Canada, Bush wins a second time. If intelligent, thoughtful people who have the altruistic mindset that they want this nation to be a BETTER place leave, then it will go to hell in George Dubya's handbasket.

Don't waste your time researching Canada. They have their own set of problems and you won't end up any happier there. Use that research time well learning the system here, and figure out what you can do LOCALLY that will make the difference NATIONALLY.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: UB Ed
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM

Alice, the grass is always greener...

I can't imagine a lovelier place than Montana.

Ed


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

A bear attacked my poodle in West Vancouver, 15 minutes away from the heart of downtown. (Actually my poodle attacked the bear, he was kind of stupid but that day he heard the call of the wild, big time.) John knows his bears.

Montana, YES!! (But maybe she lives in Butte.)


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:32 PM

The good news is that, for the first time since the 70's, Coloradoans have voted in a majority of Democrats in the state house and senate!

I'd love to leave, too, but if we all did that, it'd be like handing our country over the dumbya and his extreme agenda. I WOULD move, though, if I had a child close to draft age, as I believe Alice's son is.

Good luck to you, Alice,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:33 PM

Oh my gosh I just looked at Alice's website, available in the member profiles above. She obviously knows far more than anyone else here about the beauty of Montana. You should check it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Janie
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:06 PM

Ron and SRS,

Don't be so hasty to point your finger.

If I stay, then my son stays. I won't be faced with the choices of being drafted into a morally reprehensible war where my life is at risk, exile, or jail. He will. To wait until he is of draftable age is too late to protect him. If we migrate now, he will have dual citizenship. When he is of age, he can then decide for himself what he wants to do, go to war (which would break my heart, but could be a choice he would make), or renounce his US citizenship. If we stay, his choices are war, exile or jail. Many of my friends were drafted into Vietnam. Others chose exile or jail. All of those decisions and life changes were very difficult. Since I have the ability and the options to give him more choices, then I have the obligation to explore them.

Aside from the fact that I have been fighting for social justice for disadvantaged people in one way or another for 30+ years, and have more than paid my dues, my first responsibility is to my minor child. And as I stated in my first post, were it not for him, we would not consider leaving.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:15 PM

Your children are at much less risk of being eaten by bears than of having their blood drained by our voracious mosquitoes, black flies, deer flies, horse flies and other airborne monsters. You can yell at a bear or play dead or climb a tree, but that doesn't work with biting bugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: TS
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

Tim Horton's Coffee, REAL Beer, and Flu Vaccines!....touques, ski-doos, and Ice fishing!!....yep...we got it made!..


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:01 PM

Janie,

Are you really giving your son more options? Of course it is every parent's duty to care for the welfare of their child. But do you force your values on your child, and at what cost?   Of course war is wrong, and I am not advocating war. What I do think is important is that everyone make the decisions for themselves. There is a tradeoff. There are many values and benefits that we cherish as Americans.

You open up different opportunities(not better or worse) if you move to Canada. While they do not have a draft (at least as far as I am aware), they do have a military. Who can say that they would never have a draft?


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

HMMMMM...US or Canada? George Bush or William Shatner? Jack Daniels or Red Rose Tea? HMMMMM

Good luck Alice. I have never regretted my move to Maine. Go for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:18 PM

There are many values I and many progressive Americans share, but they aren't the values of the US government and a majority of American voters today.

We also have to deal with that.

How about we start organizing a secessionist movement, and all the Northeast, Upper Midwest and West Coast blue states join with Canada, and leave the southerners and westerners behind to watch NASCAR, and live according to their Good White Male God Fearing Values?

Come on folks! Let's secede from the Union, and then none of us has to move! Well, most of us don't have to anyway...

Both my kids, a son and a daughter, are currently of draft age. I remember my mother in law saying, when our kids were all being born, that we'd have to fight a war, because so many boys were being born into the family, compared to girls. A bit prophetic, that mom in law of mine.

Depending on how the next few months and the Iraq war goes, I will definitely counsel my kids to leave the country if the draft is reinstated, and I'll go with them, be it to Canada, Europe, or Latin America. But we'll go.

And frankly, if all that is left behind are the sell out Republicrats, well... may they bloody well get what they fought this election to get--more war.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Alice
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:26 PM

Hi, Mick,

Ryan is graduating from high school June '05 and plans to go to college in Washington state, either Pullman or at Whitman in Walla Walla.
Since contemplating what I will do after Ryan leaves home next year, which I have been doing for about 5 years, I've considered the climate and culture of a new place in order to leave the long Montana winters I've lived in my whole life. I'll be 53 in December, and the older I get, the less I like shoveling deep snow in below zero darkness. Last winter I fell on the ice just walking out to the car, and it takes much longer to recover from falls/bruises the older I get. Mexico is no longer the place I loved to visit in the past. I like the coast north of Washington state as well as the culture there. I have no family/friend ties that keep me here, so BC has been on my mind for a long time.

Thanks for the PM's from Canadian folks. I'll reply individually when I have more time.

Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: annamill
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:37 PM

How about Mexico?.. Always warm, great surfing, cheap.. you could always commute to San Diego and make good money. You could live like a rich person. Could you keep your citizenship? It's an idea. Can some smart person point out negatives for me please? Seriously.

Love, Annamill


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Janie
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

Ron,

Read my post more carefully. When he is old enough to choose, he can choose, but one must live in a country a certain number of years before citizenship can be applied for. Would I let him make his own choices about what he will do at 18 now, at age 10? Heck no!

There are never any guarantees, but the history of both Canada and New Zealand indicate that neither country is as apt to be as trigger happy as is the USA, and to take moral issues much more readily and seriously into consideration in their decisions regarding involvement in military conflict.

Alice,

Sorry to have hijacked your thread.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Devilmaster
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:54 PM

SRS - i hope your post was a joke. Cause if it wasn't, that's sad.

Anyways, for those who may or may not be interested, there is a website to answer some of your questions...

http://canadainternational.gc.ca/

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:57 PM

Mooh said it well about PEI though.... my home province :-) New Brunswick (where I am now) is also extremely scenic, with good opportunities in the service sector. Tons of good Irish- and French-heritaged folk music in the area too...

Best o'luck in wherever you lay your hat!
Brian


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

It's not that easy to come to Canada, as the website below indicates. Also, I'm not sure that being fed up with your own country is a good reason to choose Canada -- we prefer those who want what Canada has to offer, rather than simply rejecting their own country. Many Americans who are fed up with the US come here because it is so much like the US. Please come here for our differences, not similarities. Would the woman with a draft-age son want to come here if it weren't for her son?

We welcome those who come from countries where they are oppressed or in danger.

Not that easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:06 PM

We are oppressed AND in danger at this moment!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: annamill
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:09 PM

You can say that again! I was thinking the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:20 PM

"How about we start organizing a secessionist movement, and all the Northeast, Upper Midwest and West Coast blue states join with Canada, and leave the southerners and westerners behind to watch NASCAR, and live according to their Good White Male God Fearing Values?" Guest/2:18

That's more along the lines that I have been thinking. I wish. Or just heading into the Alaska bush and removing myself from any knowledge of or complicity in what the blasted country does for the next few years.

Canada does indeed have its own problems. One of the drawbacks that I am aware of is that Canada is not yet as far along as the US is about many environmental issues. I'm talking specifically about farmed salmon - it ain't healthy, folks- and it's having a bad impact on the wild stock - and about sewage treatment in many communities, including some large ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:22 PM

Ron, given the current views here, I would consider a draft in Canada about as likely as an American military invasion of this country. Could happen, both have happened before, but to think a draft here, as likely as a draft in the US, shows little understanding of the politics of the people Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM

Ebbie, you are correct there. BC politics stink on many levels.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Charmion
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:28 PM

Um, SRS is more right than wrong, at least as far in his/her comments about Canada. Although we Canadians have not had an effective conscription program since 1945, we have problems and social divisions every bit as distressing as you have south of the 49th parallel. Every time Edmund and I cross the border your way we are struck anew with the significant differences, and aware that although we enjoy visiting we would have a tough adjustment if we had to stay.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:51 PM

Metosin - I never claimed to understand Canada nor did I say that a Canadian draft was being considered. My point is that you cannot be CERTAIN that a draft will never occur and to leave one country for only that reason is a gamble, even if it is a relatively save one. PDC's note was to the point, you should become a citizen of one country just because you reject your own. You go because you will benefit from the life afforded you and will share in that nations goals.

Janie - I did read your post, but apparently you missed my point. I understand that your child is 10, but you are making lifestyle decisions now that will affect his life. Granted, we do that everyday when we raise a child. You are taking him out of a country and placing him in a new life because of your disagreement with U.S. policy. Not that I support the policy either, but what I am trying to say is that I hope you weigh all the opportunities and possibliites before making such a decision.   Personally, if my son were 18 and about to be drafted into an unjust war I would do everything I could to get him out of the service or the country.    However, I think the risk of something that may or may not happen is not worth taking him from a lifestyle and opportunites that he now enjoys as a citizen of the United States.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:51 PM

We live in the Twin Cities, and our 20 year old has a lot of friends in both Toronto and Winnipeg, who regularly make the rounds to one another's domiciles (driving for hours on end to get to punk gigs, mostly, then get int he car and drive and drive and drive....)

Anyway, we often have a house full of Canadian kids staying with us, and our kid has been similarly "adopted" by a few Canadian families too.

From the kids' perspective: ours says a move to Canada--Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver--would be cool. Canadian kids say, best to get your higher education in Canada (better value there), then move to the States for work, wages being higher here, and culturally they seem to like the US cities they have visited. They all tend to love the Twin Cities, but we are one of the few remaining bastions of progressivism in the US, so I think they truly feel more "at home" here.

I love a lot of parts of Canada. I probably would only consider a move to the Vancouver area though, I do like the eastern areas around the US/Can border in the Toronto region. I'd consider country living near Toronto, so I could get to civilization Canadian style!

But my pardner an'me, along with the kids, are leaning more towards either moving back east in the US or Canada, or to Europe. But no one seems to be on the same page as me with Tunisia! The hell with all of them!

Between me and the pardner, he loves PA & North Carolina, I love Boston and Maine. We do have some negotiating to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM

Do bears eat "progressives?" I'd really like to know.

Alice: If you go, you will be missed. Just make sure you move to a place where they have electricity so that you can hook up to the Internet and stay on the Mudcat.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM

I live in bear AND wolf country DougR, and me and most of my progressive compadres regularly spend a lot of time in our beautiful bear and wolf wilderness. Not a one of us has been eaten yet.

We also weren't scared by the silly Bush commmercial with the wolves. Whoever did the media buy for that ad in MN/Wis was an idiot! We have fought fiercely to protect our "wilderness" that was used to scare the beejaysus out of the rest of the nation!

We looooove our bares and wulffies!

And BTW Doug, if you order up yourself a cool off grid system, you don't need no steenking electricity from the polluters in control!

In fact, I'm going to take my system with me to Tunisia, and live off the ATM pipeline to my retirement bank account back in the States, get European health care...ah, the sweet life!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:13 PM

Bears are a bit more conservative about what they eat


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:33 PM

A place where they have electricity? Your're kidding, right? LOL She said she was considering areas in BC on the coast where she could get away from extreme winter conditions, not some patch of tundra in Nunavut, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:37 PM

Canada has a much better national anthem than the U.S. (Does that make this a musical thread?)

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

but only for our son's, Bev and Jerry.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Janie
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM

DevilMaster, Thanks for link!

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:51 PM

Canada instituted a draft in 1917 (?) and 1943 (?). That's it. I haven't time to check the dates, so I may be incorrect, but if so, only by a year or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:38 PM

I've lived in Canada most of my life, jOhn, and never yet seen a bear in the wild, though I think I heard one once at a distance when out in the woods picking blueberries. I sang a song to let him know I was there, and he immediately went away. Bears are well aware that people are unpredictable and potentially dangerous, so they generally avoid them if given advance warning.

I have lived in both Canada (most of my life) and the USA (for ten years), and I greatly prefer Canada although there is much good one can say about the USA. What I detest about the USA, however, is the general level of paranoia, the delusions of moral grandeur, the rabid nationalism, and the choreographed aggressive patriotism that everyone is deluged in from kindergarten on. What I like about the USA is the geography, the friendly and likeable people, the energy, and the variety.

As Canada also has wonderful geography and a friendly society without the other crazy jingoistic warlike stuff...I much prefer Canada. The USA is a great power engaging in grand imperialism. Canada is a small power, minding its own business. That is the deciding factor for me, other than the fact that I was born Canadian, which naturally counts for a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:00 PM

Bears will eat almost anything - even progressives!

People come to Canada all the time because they do not like the politics or social conditions in their birth countries. It would be no different for Americans. It would be best, however, to apply as a landed immigrant. You do have to wait almost a year but that gives you time to wrap it up and prepare for the transition.

To make sure you are accepted, have a tidy sum in the bank (transitions cost money) and make sure you have skills that are in demand. If you have training and skills that are needed, you will have no trouble. If you are a businessperson that plans to hire employees, your chances are even better. Do your homework.

As to living off grid - go for it. Its wonderful to live with trees and sky and no wires. It also keeps the population down because most people are afraid to try it. Off grid does not mean no power. Most people I know have a combination of alternate energy sources. I think everyone should have the pleasure of experiencing off grid living.

I couldn't stand the Nixon years. I can't even imagine how I could face four more years of Bush. Don't get me wrong, the politics are slimy no matter where you go - its just that our politicians don't think they are on a mission from God.

d

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Blackcatter
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:13 PM

Here's a helpful link:

Why emmigrate to Canada


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:35 PM

Sorry, I should have permanent resident not landed immigrant. That category was changed a long time ago.

The best thing about Canada is that hope is still alive.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:45 PM

And our politics can be a lot more fun too!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:05 PM

dianavan "our politicians don't think they are on a mission from God"? Maybe you weren't living in BC then, but I remember old Wacky Bennett claiming he was plugged into God....mind you, he was defeated around the time he claimed a divine electrial connection, primarily because of the remark. Most here thought he had finally lost his marbles.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:30 PM

perhaps all the hydro electric projects that he was responsible for eventually got to him. LOL Wonder where Bush's legacy will lead him?


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:37 PM

devilmaster, which part of my post did you consider particularly sad? That Bush was elected? (Absolutetly!) That Canada has it's own political problems? That just goes without saying. That Americans should stick around and not let Bush win by leaving? It means living with the consequences of the choice made by a bunch of short-sighted or scared people. It does mean the old saying "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" should read "we have nothing to fear but [at least 51% of] ourselves."

As to leaving for Canada, this is an answer that puts the son in a difficult situation. My aunt and uncle moved to Canada after living together in the states for a few years after they were married. My aunt was born here, my uncle is Turkish. Immigration folks made things difficult and he had to leave every so often, so they opted to move to Canada after their first child, a son, was born. As he got into his late teens, in the mid-1960s, the border guards in the U.S. began grilling him more and more about where he was born. Once he was 18 he could not come to the U.S. until he made the decision to declare he was a Canadian citizen. For whatever reason there was a period of several years when he didn't dare cross the border for fear of being arrested. I know full-well what I'm talking about when I say that moving to Canada isn't a decision to make lightly. When my mother suggested that she would send my brother to live with my aunt if the draft was still going when he got close to his 18th birthday we knew the same thing was likely to happen. Fortunately the draft ended a few months before anyone had to make that choice.

A better plan is for a whole bunch of democrats to join the republican part and dilute it. You can still vote democratic in the elections, and you would forego the primaries, but you could make a difference. Just ask Garrison Keillor. It has been a running gag on A Prairie Home Companion for a couple of years now.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Bardford
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM

Perhaps the time is right to suggest a move to Cascadia , which seems to be a sensible place to live.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM

Ron said, You are taking him out of a country and placing him in a new life because of your disagreement with U.S. policy.

Kind of like some folks a long time ago did when they started up these here You-(Be)nighted States, eh?:-) Sometimes parents have to do what they think is best for themselves AND their children, period.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Devilmaster
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:49 AM

SRS said: devilmaster, which part of my post did you consider particularly sad?

Awww.... do I have to pick one particular point of your post?   Can't I just say all of it and your subsequent one?

Little Hawk said:What I detest about the USA, however, is the general level of paranoia, the delusions of moral grandeur, the rabid nationalism...

LH explained my point about your post succintly. Thanks, LH.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:47 AM

I like the part where Little Hawk said the bears went away when he sang to them.

;-D


..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 03:45 AM

Bradford - I've been trying to sell the idea of Cascadia for a long time. I do think we need to include parts of Alberta, Alaska and Hawaii.

We must also establish firm trading agreements with all Pacific Rim Nations.

d

Can't you design a better-looking pine cone? The flag sucks.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:10 AM

Ron said: "the risk of something that may or may not happen is not worth taking him from a lifestyle and opportunites that he now enjoys as a citizen of the United States."

Neither the lifestyle or opportunities are less when you live in Canada, thank you very much. (One of the reasons being that the Canada-US economic relationship is the world's largest trading economy--we had a lot of doubts about NAFTA and free trade, and there have been both problems and opportunities associated with them). And if you are native-born US citizen, or your parents were, your US citizenship is not affected by where in the world you live. You can become a citizen of Canada three years after immigrating here, and still keep your US citizenship. The only way you can lose your US citizenship is by specifically, intentionally renouncing it.

Bears eat mostly German tourists in Algonquin Park. Seriously, there is very little danger from black bears which are common in wooded areas east of the Rockies. I saw one last week walking the dog (here in rural eastern Ontario). Cougar attacks have become a problem ONLY on Vancouver Island, particularly the north.

Greg is right about the trees being gaudy in October but he didn't seem to mind it when he was here last week. Perhaps he is having a delayed reaction and has been seriously traumatized by seeing the world in a different colour...

Both times there was a draft implemented in Canada,

  1. there was a world war on, in which we were enthusiastically participating
  2. there were riots in the streets


These days a draft here is totally out of the question, we could never afford it. We barely have a military. The condition of our military, and the crappy equipment they have, embarrasses even peaceniks.

I don't understand why anyone would be judgmental of people thinking of moving elsewhere. Living in a different part of the world than you grew up in is usually a worthwhile experience.

We have a long history of getting left-leaning immigrants from the States, while right-wing Canadians move to live in the States. (I would like to apologize up front to you for David Frum. Sorry about that.) Every indication is that this will continue. This conversation is going on in lots of places.

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:54 AM

LH, I'm surprised you've had only one bear encounter! I've had so many I can't count 'em - from the ones who'd raid my campsite in Algonquin Park to the young black bear who wandered into the churchyard across the street from my house a few years ago. He'd drawn a small crowd of onlookers, standing well back at a safe distance of course -until the police arrived and shooed us away.

Then they shot him.

That was very upsetting. A couple weeks before a tiger had escaped from an exotic animals compound near here. Thousands and thousands of dollars were spent to hire a helicopter and buy tranquilizer darts to recapture the tiger - but the bear was only worth a couple 50 cent bullets. :-( And his crime? Encroaching on human territory.

BUt here's my favorite bear story. The last time I drove through Banff National Park in May 2002, there was an outcry going on in Canmore (just outside the park). Apparently our gov't had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to trap and fit the local grizzlies (an endangered species) with radio collars, even though such interference is highly traumatic and sometimes fatal for the bears.

Why the concern over the grizzlies? Because the G8 summit people were meeting in Lake Louise that spring, and wanted the terrorist bears
monitored so they could enjoy the park without fear. The aim is to catch as many bears as possible in the 2,500 sq mile Kananaskis wilderness in which the summit will be held. The bears will then be fitted with radio collars that will allow wildlife experts to monitor their movements and warn security officers if a grizzly is approaching any of the world leaders tucked up inside their luxury holiday lodges.

Personally, I think the planet would have been much better off if the G8 summit people had been caught and collared, and the bears given minute-by-minute information about their whereabouts.


daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:01 AM

Sorry, GUEST signed Bill was me.

A couple of other things about how to become a Canadian.

The easiest way, as always, is to marry one. Worked for my spouse. In fact one of my best friends has married Americans-now-Canadians twice. In the same category, you can also be sponsored by various close relatives as a "family class" immigrant.

One of the parts of NAFTA is that trilaterally between Canada, the US and Mexico its very easy to get a work visa if you are an experienced (2 years) professional in various mostly high-tech occupations. Worth looking into if you are interested. I don't know where the documentation is.

LH has pretty much exactly nailed how I feel about the US.

Winters can be pretty gruelling here, but they are also appealing in a lot of ways. I hear it's going to snow this evening...

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:35 AM

Charmion said about Canada: "we have problems and social divisions every bit as distressing as you have south of the 49th parallel."

We have problems all right and they are not trivial, but I beg to strongly differ that they are as distressing as those of the US. In a way I take her point to be that Canada is not a caricature of a "kindler gentler country", it is a real country with plenty of warts. And we get tired of being used as a talking point for arguments between Americans, whether we are being praised or vilified, because in either case there is an unrealistic oversimplification of the issues.

For example, we aren't going around invading small countries with which we disagree, we don't have the tragic concept of firearm ownership as a human right, and we have not gone anywhere near as far down the road of privatizing and corporatizing every form of human endeavour that someone thinks they can make a buck from. And we don't have the centuries-old baggage of a slavery-based economy.

One thing we do have is a chance to have civilized discussions between people of differing political viewpoints, which is why I am pleased to have Charmion and Edmund as friends, since whatever our differences we have much more in common.

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Janie
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:12 AM

Well, I can't marry a Canadian unless I divorce my American or poison him (No, really, Honey, I'm only joking.)

I'm not finding much information on-line re: employment for Masters level social workers in Canada. I have worked in all aspects of social work, but now pretty much specialize in mental health. what is the public mental health/behavioral health system like in Canada? Are there many opportunities for psychotherapists or case managers?

If not, anyone want to volunteer to (*grin*) adopt us? We can meet the financial requirements, but our ages and professions may be barriers.

Those winters are a concern. Bill, you are talking snow while I am wishing we would get a frost so I could stop deadheading dahlias!

Janie

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:12 PM

"Seriously, there is very little danger from black bears which are common in wooded areas east of the Rockies. I saw one last week walking the dog (here in rural eastern Ontario)." Guest/6:10. I think it's cool that in Canada the bears occasionally walk one's dog. Here in Alaska, bears and dogs have mostly adversarial relationships.

I know a number of Canadians, mostly from the Yukon Territory, mostly specifically from the Whitehorse area. There's a great deal of back and forthing between the YT and southeast Alaska. A couple of Juneau musican friends have pretty much settled across the border. Someone wrote a song where he said that he has discovered that Canadians are just like us- but without guns. Which tends to make them nicer. I'm sure there are exceptions. *G*


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:31 PM

You may have already seen these, but I'll add the links anyhoo.

Working in Canada

Info relating to social work occupations

Workopolis

More as I find 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:58 PM

devilmaster,

Little Hawk said: What I detest about the USA, however, is the general level of paranoia, the delusions of moral grandeur, the rabid nationalism...

I'm not sure what you're upset about regarding my post. I agree precisely with Little Hawk's assessment--those are behaviors one finds here in the states (in evidently 51% of the people) and they're as obnoxious as hell. And the departure of those who think that's not a good way to conduct oneself as a nation will result in an ever more concentrated obnoxiousness of those remaining. Someone has to bring them back to rational behavior. Canada and Canadians aren't doing anything to cause them to change their behavior.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:00 PM

I think with 4 more years of George W., Americans will be anything BUT rational...


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:09 PM

For bears, it depends on what part of Canada you go to. Around here there are lots (even IN town). And they are getting to be a worse problem every year. Not a lot of attacks yet, but they are doing plenty of damage. One tore a neighbour's truck door off to get at a chocolate bar inside. Garbage bags and cans torn open and garbage spread all over. People afraid to go for walks.

Live traps are set but the bears almost always come back.

Their increasing numbers across north Ontario is widely blamed upon cancellation of the spring bear hunt a few years ago, a move made to please the anti-hunting lobbyists to the south. It harmed some businesses in the north for sure. I don't know whether it is to blame for the bear problems, but I do know the problems have increased since then.

There was a bear sighting in Nepean (near Ottawa) late last spring and it practically shut down the school system there for a couple of days till the yearling cub was caught. We have fully grown bears hanging out near schoolyards here all the time. Wonder what the reaction will be when a bear walks down the middle of Yonge Street in Toronto for the first time?


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM

"just like us- but without guns. Which tends to make them nicer. "

Ebbie, when my brother moved to Los Angeles from Canada, he was amazed at how polite everyone was -- He attributed it to the PRESENCE of guns - using the opposite of your theory.

When I took the kids camping in Sequoia National Park (California), we had to tolerate the nightly presence of bears passing between the tents and molesting our cars (not in the Biblical sense.) I thought my son didn't know it, and he didn't say a word there or for several months. Then one day he announced he NEVER wants to camp there again with all the bears.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM

Something one should know, if one is considering moving to BC is that your medical records will be open to scrutiny by the US government under the US Patriot Act.

"Victoria - British Columbia's privacy commissioner says American authorities will be able to use the Patriot Act to get access to the private information on Canadians if personal records are outsourced to U.S. companies.

Privacy legislation enacted by the Liberal government of Premier Gordon Campbell will not protect the information on Canadian citizens from prying American officials if the province outsources the management of personal medical records to U.S. companies as it is planning to do.

The BCGEU was the first to raise the alarm about the implications of the USA Patriot Act by issuing acourt challenge over the contracting out of the administration of the Medical Services Plan (MSP) tothe Arizona-based Maximus corporation. The government is also contracting out PharmaCare, government payroll, Provincial Revenue, disaster recovery, and workstation support services.

Heyman said the union will continue to pursue the matter through the courts and is considering a
range of legal options, including seeking an injunction to stop the signing of any further contracts with U.S.-linked companies until the government fulfills the recommendations contained in the privacy commissioner's report."

More here


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

Cluin - Bears are not stupid enough to voluntarily go for a walk down Yonge Street!

I think it is wise to always allow some bear hunting, otherwise the bears soon lose their natural fear of humans and that eventually leads to serious trouble. Therefore I strongly support northerners who want the hunt back.   There also may be an overpopulation of bears and a shortage of food, causing them to come in closer to town looking for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Devilmaster
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:01 PM

STS said: I agree precisely with Little Hawk's assessment--those are behaviors one finds here in the states (in evidently 51% of the people)

Ya know what the true difference is between a Republican and a Democrat?

About 18 letters in the alphabet.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:12 PM

I meant it as hyperbole, LH.

But I wouldn't doubt it could happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:14 PM

Lets start a new thread for bear stories. Everyone has a 'bear' story in Canada. I have a few, myself.

I think they are scary and unpredictable. Don't believe that story that brown bears are harmless or that all you have to do is make lots of noise and they run away! Hah! Its pretty unsettling when you make lots of noise and they just keep coming...

Don't know anybody who has actually been harmed by a bear. Know a few people who have been stalked by grizzlies.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Liberal Flight
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:31 PM

It's happening everywhere these days.

L.F.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:44 PM

Ah, another wave of draft-dodgers.

Well, pre-draft dodgers, beating the Christmas rush.

Welcome! Welcome!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Janie
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 10:36 PM

L.F.--Thanks for the chuckle. Doesn't good humor always have a good dose of truth in it?

Cluin, et. al.,
    I wonder, within Canada, just how controversial was the phenomenon of that influx of young American draft evaders? How were you Canadians affected? That is certainly information that is essential for us to have as we work on our cost/benefit analysis of each option.

To everyone posting informative links and thoughtful comments or discussion---You have really helped me get started doing some serious thinking and information gathering. And Alice, you started this out from a very different place. Movement. Motion of ideas. Music.

I have been coming to Mudcat for three years now, and I continue to be wowed by the responses and thoughtful discussion that often occur. At this same time I have a thread going "up top" where I was/am seeking some suggestions on a music-related issue, and people are offering all kinds of good advice.

And all of it a gift, Just for the asking.

Janie

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Susan A-R
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 11:25 PM

We've been thinking of this off and on for about seven years, and it did just get a bit more serious 48 hours ago. Thanks for all of the information folks. So, even if I am paying about 20% of my income in state and US taxes, 3,600 in property taxes and another 4,000 in health insurance and health care costs, are the taxes still going to be a shock?


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:50 AM

Well Susan, on top of income taxes (ranging from approx 35% for average citizens to 0% for the extremely wealthy) and property taxes (which fluctuate depending on where you live), in Canada we also pay 8% GST (Goods and Services Tax) on everything we buy. Plus, most of the provinces (except Alberta, if memory serves) have their own PST (provincial sales tax). Here in Ontario, the PST and GST add up to an extra 15% on all purchases - except books and most groceries.

Yes, most health care is free in Canada but please don't get overly excited about it. People can spend days waiting to see a doctor around here. In fact, newcomers to Canada looking for a family doctor often resort to facing long line-ups in emergency wards and after-hours clinics instead. Also, unless you have additional health insurance prescriptions and other medical needs as well as certain hospitalization costs are your own responsibility.

I was watching a report about this on the local news the other night. The shortage of family doctors in my area is growing more serious every year, and what are they blaming it on? Apparently it's because over 50% of all medical school graduates in Canada are now ... you guessed it... WOMEN!

Darn those women eh - insisting on reasonably "human" hours at work and cutting down on patient loads so that they can give their families the attention a healthy family requires!   ;-)

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: TS
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM

So..looks like some of the American Catters arent the only people contemplating the move...report today on the News said Canadian Immigration website usually takes 20,000 hits/day...since the election its taking over 120,000 hits/day!...the media I guess is calling them "Bush Dodgers" rather then the 60's Draft Dodgers....a nifty website. www.marryacanadian.com .... Slainte!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Mooh
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:39 AM

If voting with the ballot doesn't work, try voting with your feet, but leave your damn guns where you come from. Get a new gun here only if you seriously intend to hunt. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:43 AM

Here is an idea... The Canadian Maritime states were thinking of petitioning for US statehood if Quebec leaves Canada... well, How about the North Eastern States of the US becoming Canadian Provences... Hell, we are more like you guys then we are like the rest of the country!
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: TS
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:56 AM

no LArry...afew people with big voices suggested the Maritime PROVINCES would benefit if they came States if Quebec gained sovernty..neither one will ever happen......Slainte!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:06 AM

Stop talking about Bush and rush out and buy Leonard Cohen's new CD. It's spiffing.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

"spiffing"? C'est what?


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:17 AM

Sorry colonials. I keep forgetting that you only have a minimal grasp of The Queen's English. "spiffing" means good/exciting/excellent.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: TS
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:00 PM

I have a few words that work well when refering to the queen's english...but...I'm just a colonial..


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: DougR
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:00 PM

"other than the fact that I was born Canadian which means a lot of course."

Sounds pretty nationalistic to me, L.H. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM

Hi realbrew... as you may note in my saying that New York et al. should become Candian Provinces... the naming of Canadian Maritime states was a mistype borne of haste... I really want to get the process going of making Canada a little larger and the North East of the US a little more free and comfy... a little nip and tuck, Staten Island would be a small US island off the coast of Canadian Manhattan, but it may be easy to tow it down to the Carolinas...
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: TS
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM

haha..larry...sorry..jsut got a great picture in my noggin of a "Canadian Manhattan"...hmmm..close al the pizza shops and hotdog stands and make way for Poutine!..Poutine for everyone!...Can the US keep Boston though?..I'm not a big fan of Boston...we can change the region from New England to "Newer Canada"...hmm..yeah..I like that idea....we can even turn Lady Liberty's crown into a big Maple Leaf hat!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

Uh Daylia, 8% GST? I know inflation is insideous, but have you ever checked out any of your receipts?

Here are the rates for Federal income tax for Canada prior to deductions

16% on the first $32,183 of taxable income;
22% on the next $32,185 of taxable income;
26% on the next $40,280 of taxable income; and
29% of taxable income over $104,648

Provincial rates vary according to province and although Alberta has a flat tax of 10% on all income, for income under approximately $62,000, it looks as if you'll still pay less combined provincial and federal income tax on income earned in BC, Ontario and a few others, but will get nicked by the sales tax in the rest of the provinces.

You can do calculations from
this page


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM

She meant 7% GST, as you know. It's 8% for Ontario PST. But it all adds up to 15% total sales tax on most items.

And Janie, opinion was split back then in Canada with regards to the wave of draft-dodgers that came here over 30 years ago. Mostly they were welcomed, I think. But things were better economically back then.

Now, many might think an influx of new immigrants to be a threatening drain on our social safety net and health care system/health plan. But of course, many would likely be professionals and educated people. That would be good and might offset the long term brain-drain problem Canada has been experiencing (educated professionals emigrating south of the border for bigger bucks). I like Americans very much and have many friends there (though most are actually Republican supporters) so I'd welcome any that wished to move here.

But I wouldn't worry about a future military draft if I were you. After all George W. Bush made an election promise not to institute the draft and no politician has ever gone back on one of those, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:29 PM

Don't laugh ReelBrew! I have a can of Poutine gravy in my kitchen, here in Manhatten, just waiting for the cold weather, and a quick run up to Quebec for cheeze curds! Quick, the revolution is starting SEND LABATS!!!!
Vive la Canada, Vive la Paris Neuveau (formerly New York, formerly New Amsterdam)... Oh Canada.... Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:35 PM

i vote for secession.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:45 PM

"I keep forgetting that you only have a minimal grasp of The Queen's English."

"Spiffing" is the QUEEN'S English? No wonder she has so many troubles.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:10 PM

The main think I would worry about living in Canada was Quebec suceeding from the rest of the country.   Do any of you remember about 8 years ago when the vote for Quebec to succeed was as close as the 2000 USA election?

The vote ended up 49.9% to 50.1%.   No one knew how it would turn out the day before the election.   I saw James Keelaghan at the Ark the night before the election and he ended his concert asking everyone to pray for Canada.   He and other knew that if quebec suceeded, it would destroy all of Canada.

48% of the people may have voted for Kerry, but no one in the United States is talking about suceeding from the rest of the country.

PS:   Quebec is to the rest of Candada what red states are to blue states in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:28 PM

It only adds up to 14% in BC, the current provincial government jacked it up and then chopped it .5%......some saving.....but at least we are punished equally by both levels of government.

Cluin, we too have a lot of American friends here, again, all Republicans. Most have migrated from Texas and Arizona and have been buying up waterfront properties on the Island for the last 10 years, to build their summer "cottages".

They never talk about politics. Neither do we.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:09 PM

Just saw a dream map of the future (drawn up by a Canadian, of course): Separate off the states that voted Bush, and join the rest to Canada. The Bush states form a unit (except Alaska).

Label the large northern part "The United States of Canada." Label the cluster of Bush states "Jesusland."

Now isn't that a grand solution?


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Susan A-R
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:24 PM

There is a rumor (which is actually dubious) that Vermont built the right to secede into it's constitution. Rumor has it that there is actually a conference on this tomorrow. I believe that the proposal is for Maine, New Hampshire and VT to joine the Maritimes.

That would save a lot of imigration and moving hassles.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Alice
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:31 PM

Thanks for all the links and comments. Love that marryanamerican site!
Very funny!

Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:04 PM

Hey - I'm a Canadian and I need some cash. How much is a marriage going for these days? Doesn't sound too bad to me! I even have a little suite in my house that he could rent.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:14 PM

Oh - I forgot that gay marriages are legal here. Any women out there interested in marrying me and moving downstairs? I will expect a heavy dowry but what price freedom?

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:58 PM

Given the current USA election....it is my understanding that movements are underway in Canada to reclaim Maine, Washington, and Vermont, NH, into the northern union of socialistic managment....and three of these four states are eagar to defect.



Sincerely,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Patrick Henry
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:18 PM

Record numbers of applicants

PH


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 07:51 AM

Larry, imo your concerns about Quebec separating are nothing but a waste of energy. Quebecers were the first Canadians - and they'll probably be the last. The only time we hear rumbles about Quebec separating is when some myopic vote-hungry politician decides there might be an advantage to flogging that tired old horse again.

I'm going to go way WAY out on a pretty red Maple limb and say that Quebecers are, by and large, very proud to be Canadian. And the rest of Canada is just as proud of them. Check out yesterday's CBC report about how Quebec veterans really feel about their flag and their Bloc leaders .

Veterans at a legion hall in Quebec are upset their Bloc MP is still refusing to provide them with new Canadian flags. John Hill said he was told by the riding office of MP André Bellavance that handing out Canadian flags is against Bloc policy ... "If I had to vote to throw him out,[Bloc leader André Bellavance] I'd vote ten times maybe a thousand to throw him out," says Bruno Lavoie, a Second World War veteran. "He doesn't deserve to be there."

Here's a beautiful and old, VERY old folk song from Lower Canada (pre-Confederation Quebec). It illustrates quite well how French Canadians felt ... and I daresay still feel ... about Canada.

Un Canadien Errant

(For those of you who can't manage the French lyric the English translation follows.

Un canadien errant,
Banni des ses foyers,
Un canadien errant,
Banni de ses foyers,
Parcourait en pleurant
Des pays étrangers.
Parcourait en pleurant
Des pays étrangers.

Un jour, triste et pensif,
Assis au bord des flots,
Un jour, triste et pensif,
Assis au bord des flots,
Au courant fugitif
Il adressa ces mots,
Au courant fugitif
Il adressa ces mots:

"Si tu vois mon pays,
Mon pays malheureux,
Si tu vois mon pays,
Mon pays malheureux,
Va, dis à mes amis
Que je me souviens d'eux
Va, dis à mes amis
Que je me souviens d'eux.

"O jours si pleins d'appas
Vous êtes disparus …
O jours si pleins d'appas
Vous êtes disparus,
Et ma patrie, hèlas!
Je ne la verrai plus!
Et ma patrie, hèlas!
Je ne la verrai plus!

"Non, mais en expirant,
O mon cher Canada!
Non, mais en expirant,
O mon cher Canada!
Mon regard languissant
Vers toi se portera,
Mon regard languissant
Vers tois se portera …"


Once A Canadian Lad

Once a Canadian lad,
Exiled from hearth and home,
Wandered, alone and sad,
Through alien lands unknown.
Down by a rushing stream,
Thoughtful and sad one day
He watched the water pass
And to it he did say:

"If you should reach my land,
My most unhappy land,
Please speak to all my friends
So they will understand.
Tell them how much I wish
That I could be once more
In my beloved land
That I will see no more.

"My own beloved land
I'll not forget till death,
And I will speak of her
With my last dying breath.
My own beloved land
I'll not forget till death,
And I will speak of her
With my last dying breath."


One last note ... even if some Blochead did manage to cut the ties that bind us, I really doubt it would be the "end of Canada". We are MUCH bigger than any of our parts. And after all, the rest of the country would still require Ontario's financial support!    ;-)

running for cover now

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:17 AM

Oops I made a mistake there ... Mr. Bellevance is a Bloc member of Parliament, but not the leader of the Bloc party. Pardon!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM

jOhn,
Us bares gots to eat too. A tourist here and there is no different from humans sampling international food.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:06 PM

Thanks Daylia, IMO Quebec is the very bastion of the "progressive liberal". They experienced first hand the oppression of the lack of separation of church and state and would never go that way again.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

1. the 1995 Quebec referendum was close, but it was not a referendum on whether to "succeed", or secede, from Canada. The actual question was a tangled mess of semantics about "negotiating sovereignty-association" between Quebec and ROC (Rest Of Canada) , and no one ever figured out quite what that meant. It was a sharp wake-up call though. The whole Quebec nationalism thing has been going on for so long, it has become stable in its instability.

2. Actually I was walking the dog, but said canine has had less pleasant encounters with the ursine species--has a nice scar on her snout to prove it.

3. many thousands of draft-dodgers/deserters from the Vietnam era have stayed, made good lives here, and are valued community members. One is the mayor of my municipality.

4. as for that crap about armed people being more polite, being a non-gun-owner I'll kick your ass if you repeat that old Heinlein cliche again! Maritimers are nicer than anyone, and quite lightly armed as a rule. Frankly I don't think there's a correlation either way.

5. and Daylia, thanks, I thought of posting the lyrics to "Un Canadien Errant" to this thread aussi!

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM

You're welcome, W-O and Metchosin. The truth is I was being a bit selfish - making those comments and posting those lyrics relieved (somewhat) the heartache and foreboding I'd been feeling ever since I read GUEST Larry's post. Even though that song often brings me tears.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

One thing I have observed is that whatever happens in the States, usually happens in Canada about 10 years later. Maybe that is why Canadians are so interested in U.S. politics. Maybe that is why the U.S. should listen to us when we protest from outside the States. We see the pitfalls, we see the trend, we need you to respond to our concerns. We are not the target audience of U.S. media, our news is from several perspectives. We could be your best friend.

So, moving to Canada may only be a means of delaying the inevitable.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:09 PM

Alice, I hope you're not doing this because of Bush. We need sensible, reality- based people to reclaim our country from a sanguinary and sectarian corporate driven Administration. If we want our civil liberties and a well-functioning government then we're going to have to fight for it and not run off.

If however, you just like Canada, it's a beautiful country and I can understand that.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:11 PM

No country is an island. Not even the island ones anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 05:49 PM

I think there are quite a few vital reasons for Canadian interest in US politics, economics foremost among them. Some of those reasons are shared with the rest of the world (see above) but for Canada, it's never been a matter of choice. It's more a matter of geography.

There are MANY things that have happened in the US that I'm very grateful did not happen here 10 years later! However, Canada is affected in some way or another by major US events, be they positive or negative. For example, one of the oldest historic buildings in my area is a tiny wooden church built by runaway slaves who'd fled to Canada via the "underground railway" after the Civil War.

Come to think of it, who were the first permanent white settlers in Ontario (or "Upper Canada" as it was called before Confederation)? None other than the *United Empire Loyalists* - the English who'd escaped north after the American revolution! ANd that's just how "connected" we really are.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:09 AM

Well great minds think alike, I am hearing everywhere the join Canada plan... someone also pointed out it would ballence the move to the right by the Canadian midlands... Well, give the Statue of Liberty a hocky stick and a Labats, here we come, Oh Canada... Larry Otway


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:28 AM

Oh Canada ... NOOOO Canada ....

woke up this morning
put on my slippers
looked out the window
and cried.

Feel sorry for me ok? I'm possibly moving to Iraq

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:31 AM

oh daylia - I totally understand. When I was younger, I accepted Winter as neccesary part of the year and actually liked the clean, white snow. Snow and sun were a great mix. Now - I dread it. Wish I could ski or snowboard. Then, I would welcome it. My kids love the snow and can hardly wait to hit the slopes.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM

thanks dianavan. I feel better now that I'm over the shock ... and hey, it does look so VERY PRETTY out there today. The snow does brighten up those muddy brown leafless November days.

PLease pardon me going a little off-topic here - but what a gorgeous sunrise there was this morning! The thick silver snow-clouds blushing rose at the edges were parted just enough to showcase Venus against a clear blue sky, glowing huge and bright in all her awesome beauty.

ANd what IS that other planet so close to her? I've seen it in various positions right beside Venus every morning for about a week now ... does anyone know? If it looked a little redder I'd think it was Mars.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:40 PM

Found it! Apparently Venus is enjoying an early morning rendevous with Jupiter this month.

Small world! The planets look exactly the same over Tokyo as they did over Ontario this morning. Except Ontario's sunrise was MUCH prettier

... not that I'm biased or anything ....


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM

Daylia- I think you should take pride in your country. I respect you for that.   It doesn't change the truth however.

I have relatives in Montreal and Ontario.   My previous company had a large Canadian sales force.    I worked with many of them and roomed with the national sales manage at a convention.   In one of my first jobs, I was a guest speaker at the Canadian Sales meeting.    The comments I made about the rest of the country hating Quebec were things I heard first hand from people in Canada.   

In addition, I know several canadian performers.   We are hosting a house concert for the Sirens (from London) on July 31.    I am sorry, but people in the USA hate the French and a large number of people in Canada hate the French in Quebec.   The fact that the vote was so so so close only proves my point.

I will admit, that a large number of people in the USA hate New Yorkers and think Californians are pretty strange.   But no one if voting to actually separate into separate countries.

My mom just had hip surgery.   She met with a doctor who diognosed the problem and three weeks later performed the surgery.   She is home and doing well.   In Canada there is a 9 month wait for hip surgery.   So much for free health coverage.   Be in pain for 9 months and hope the hospital doesn't go out of business.    Anyone who has money comes to the states for their major operations.   If they stayed in Canada the system would collapse.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

Well Larry, I've heard all kinds of French-bashing, Quebec-bashing, Ontario-bashing, Native-bashing, Yankee-bashing, whatever-bashing all my life too. But I'd do think there's more a LOT more people out there who simply refuse to hate anybody, or participate in such useless, destructive and divisive behavior.

Yes, the political situation looks precarious, and it's been that way for a very long time. That's why it reminds me of flogging a dead horse.

People can wait a long time in Canada to see a doctor or for elective surgery - but the standards of medical care and practice here are among the highest in the world. ANd it is free, for all citizens - but you do have to stand in line. At least we're pretty polite about standing in line in Canada.

ONe last thought - nothing collapses very easily when it's frozen solid. Hey, maybe there's hope for Canada after all!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:15 PM

Ten Reasons Not to Move to Canada for those in desperation because they wake up in a fascist and barbaric nation.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:55 PM

Larry K - I live in B.C. and have never heard any hate spewed toward Quebec. In fact, most of my friends consider Quebec the soul of Canada. There is far more criticism of the U.S.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:15 PM

" I am sorry, but people in the USA hate the French" Larry K

Wow. Am I out of touch. I don't know anyone who says they hate the French. Maybe I need to live on the East Coast? In Oregon and in Alaska I have heard no such thing. Except from our government. More's the pity. The French have been of great assistance to this country, starting from very early days, indeed. They have pulled our bacon out of the fire on more than one occasion.

I have some friends who do a great deal of traveling- they're gone to Brazil, at the moment- they don't have kids so this is how they like to spend their money- and last year they went to Provence and to Paris. They said they were braced for anti-American sentiment but were met everywhere by friendly, helpful people. They stayed in a couple of B&Bs and enjoyed it very much. Neither of them speaks more than a smattering of French.

I think generalisations tend not to be of much value.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: TS
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

hmmm...I must say...being a Bilingual Ango-Canadian who grew up in a VERY bilingual region...I dont hate the French...or Quebec...in fact...some of the greatest partying I've done was in Montreal..and some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen were in Montreal...and some of the most amazing sex ever was from French women...so.....that being said...Vive la Belle Province!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:19 PM

Right on, ReelBrew.

And if any of you ladies secretly dream of dancing with a hot hot HOT Canadian guy who really DOES know how to dance (or even just really LOVES to dance) - well, sorry to say it but you'll probably be stuck just dreaming about it for a long long LONG time.

Unless you go to Quebec, that is.

Vive la difference!


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM

Larry:

I think your head must be in a very dark place. The people of this country have traidtionally been Allies, friends and lovers of French people, food, wine, places and culture. Does the expression "Lafayette, we are here?" ring a bell? Do you recall why it was spoken? Do you think there is any connection between the French Revolution and our constitution? Culturally, do you think we owe anything to Descartes, Rousseau, Henri Bergson? Do you like the Statue of Liberty?

We became bitter about the French when they tried to protect their Elf Acquitaine oil contracts with Iraq by opposing the overthrow of Iraq by invasion.

As a result, a hate-mongering campaign was started and reflected by a small per centage.

A lot of smoke and noise, but as far as I know, the statement you make is comppletely off-base.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM

Thanks, Amos, for posting the link to "Ten Reasons Not to Move to Canada." I've been to Vancouver, B.C. more times than I can count (it's a beautiful city and I love the place), and I've also been to Victoria once, and to eastern Canada (Kingston, Ont.) where my sister, brother-in-law, and a whole batch of nieces and nephews hang out. My son works in Ottawa for the Canadian government. I would find it very pleasant to live in Canada.

But Seattle is a beautiful city also (even if traffic gridlock is the third worst in the country and as far as a good public transportation system is concerned, we're thirty years behind the times and the current batches of competing transportation planners are a bunch of blithering idiots), I have family here also, and lots of friends, both new and life-long. It would really be a wrench for me to pull up stakes and leave for somewhere else. Were Barbara and I to do something like that, we'd probably go the whole route and move to England (and wothehell! France is just a chunnel-trip away!).

But we're not planning on leaving. I intend to stick around and do what I can in my own small way to see that this country changes direction to a rational and truly compassionate society, while making life miserable for those who think that the acquisition of wealth is more important than the genuine needs of people. Or that forcing our brand of "democracy" on the rest of the world by use of military power is really going to work. Or that declaring conventional, battle-field style wars pre-emptively and indiscriminately is the way to defeat terrorism. The true test of the success of a society is "how well does it treat its most powerless and vulnerable citizens?" And "how well does it get along with its neighbors?"

Do I think I can change this country? Certainly not by myself. But one does what one can. Far better to give it your all and fail than to say "Ah, to hell with it!" and give up.

Don Firth

(I'm ready to charge. Point me at the nearest windmill!)


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM

BC is very nice if you can compete with the inflated Real Estate prices the wealthest Chinese are willing to pay.

Toronto is is a good bet but a heck of a lot colder without the Japanese current to keep it warm.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:47 PM

The other nice thing about the Blue states becoming Canadian Provinces, is shorter summers and more snow in the winter. I like it when there is a lot of snow in New York and we can ski down fifth avenue. I for one, would like it if we became a Canadian province and had more snow.
Cheers,
Larry O ( the canadaophile rather than Larry K.)


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: pdq
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

...just got this in an email...


Tuesday, 23 November 2004


The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has
intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop
the illegal immigration.


The re-election of President Bush is prompting the exodus among left leaning
citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray and agree with Bill
O'Reilly.


Canadian border farmers say it's not uncommon to see dozens of sociology
professors, animal rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields at
night.


''I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood
producer huddled in the barn," said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose
acreage borders North Dakota.


The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry.


''He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I
said I didn't have any, he left. Didn't even get a chance to show him my
screenplay, eh?"


In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences,
but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that blare
Rush Limbaugh across the fields.


''Not real effective," he said. ''The liberals still got through, and Rush
annoyed the cows so much they wouldn't give milk."


Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near
the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across
the border and leave them to fend for themselves.


''A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions," an Ontario
border patrolman said. ''I found one carload without a drop of drinking
water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley Cabernet, though."


When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often wailing
loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been
circulating about the Bush administration establishing re-education camps in
which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer, learn how to shoot a handgun and watch NASCAR.


In the days since the election, liberals have turned to sometimes ingenious
ways of crossing the border.


Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap
Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans
disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping
buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers. Many others were caught wearing
 Birkenstock sandals with young appearing feet in them - a dead giveaway.


''If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we
get suspicious about their age," an official said.


Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating
an organic-broccoli shortage and renting all the good Susan Sarandon movies.


''I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can't
support them," an Ottawa resident said. ''How many art-history majors does
one country need?"


In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice
President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the
administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source close to
Cheney said.


''We're going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might put
some endangered species on postage stamps. The president is determined to
reach out."


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:35 PM

actually donuel, the wealthy Chinese immigrant situation has slowed down since Hong Kong has stabilized. They brought with them alot of business. What we need now are trades people. If you are skilled in any of the trades, Vancouver is the place for you but as the post above point out, not much need for art history majors. Lots of artists already here.

d

Very post, pdq

p.s. The devalued American dollar is really playing havoc around here. It used to be that it was an attractive location for the movie industry but ...


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:05 PM

Hell, if they were smart, they'd just marry a Canadian. That's what I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: mike_in_st_c
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:59 AM

Sooo...You wanna be Canadian, eh? Take this test. 1)The title of Canada's political leader is? a)President b) Prime Minister c)Big Chief d)C.E.O.

2)How are totem poles made? a) they are grown from seed b)crafted by trained wodpeckers c) they are carved by hand d) liquid wood poured into a mold

3) What is an igloo made out of? a)Ice cream b)Twigs and Grass c)Snow and Ice d)Celine Dion's CD's

4) Canadians speak English and... a)French b)Canadese c)American d)Frenglish

5) The symbol on the Canadian flag is... a) a Skidoo b)a Moose c)a Hockey Puck d)a Maple leaf

6) Which word is Canada most famous for? a)Duhhh b)Eh c)Right-o d)Cheers

7) Which animal is Canada'snational symbol? a)the beaver b)Bryan Adams c)Arctic Squirrel d)the Platypus

8)Maple syrup is refined from what? a)Beaver milk b)Maple tree sap c)Lake Erie sludge d) Screech

9) Wayne Gretzky is a famous... a)tap dancer b)Dogsled racer c)Singing Mountie d)Hockey player

10)Canada's official national sport is... a) Snow Shoeing b) Hockey c) Lawn Bowling d)Lacrosse


Answers 1-b, 2-c, 3-c, 4-a, 5-d, 6-b, 7-a, 8-b, 9-d,10-d

Test scores: 9-10 correct, Congratulations, YOU are as Canadian as Stanfield's underwear & back bacon.

5-8 correct.... not bad...eh!

3-4 correct...You should be set adrift on Lake Louise, in a canoe filled with Pierre Berton books.

0-2 correct... Oh! You're American.


I cannot claim authorship of the above test. I got it off a tee-shirt I originally saw in Tobermory, Ontario.
(Hope it provided some laughter and entertainment.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 01:16 AM

That test was too easy. You should ask things like "what's the name of Don Cherry's (now deceased?) dog, or "what's the name of the store where most Canadians buy their beer", or what is Orillia most famous for besides Gordon Lightfoot and Little Hawk.

(answers: Blue, The Beer Store, McGill Enviornmental porta-potties)

You can get a "Don Cherry's dog Blue Bobble Head Doll here.


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Subject: RE: BS: possibly moving to Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:29 AM

Hey - I think I just discovered the difference between Americans and Canadians.

Canadians have the ability to laugh at themselves!

d


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