BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Fat Albert
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:11 PM

"Instead of poor, they'd be homeless. Instead of getting medical care, they'd be dying in shantytowns. Instead of getting an education, they'd be child labourers in sweat shops. Instead of eating real food in a little local cafe they'd be eating shit at McDonalds."

Another totally unrealistic hypothesis. How are things in Puerto Rico?


http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2537
(April 21, 2003)Cuba's Cruel Joke
by Larry Solomon (executive director of the Urban Renaissance Institute, and a columnist for Canada's National Post.)

"Can I have your bones?" the old woman asked my eight-year-old daughter, pointing to the gnawed remains of the chicken leg that had been her lunch. Seeing that my daughter was perplexed, the old woman displayed a box of chicken bones that she had collected from other customers at the lunch counter of the department store, a respectable establishment frequented by locals in Old Havana's main shopping street. My daughter provided the bones after the lunch counter staff gave its consent - the old woman was evidently a regular at the lunch counter, and this was how she earned her supper.

Welcome to Cuba, 44 years into the Revolution that was to industrialize the economy, eradicate hunger and eliminate the gap between rich and poor in this island nation, previously the most prosperous in the Caribbean. Today, the once-muscular Cuban economy is in tatters and its much lauded social safety net a cruel joke. The poor, in reality, are bled to support the lifestyles of the government elite, which lives in luxury - the driveways of the Havana honchos sport Mercedes - while its populace goes hungry.

Some Cubans outside government - increasingly those who obtain patronage positions in the tourist industry, where they receive tips and other payments in U.S. dollars - manage comfortable, if meagre, existences. With dollars, they can shop in the many "dollar" shops, where they can obtain some of the consumer goods, medicines and dairy products that most Cubans, prior to the Revolution, could readily obtain.

The great majority of Cubans, however, are left to fend for themselves in a pitiless system. Most must "do business" to survive, as Cubans put it, because most cannot subsist on the typical wages - the equivalent of about 50 cents a day - that the government sets for them. The old woman at the lunch counter begged for food; other Cubans beg for old clothes or for medicine, or sell peanuts on street corners. Young men sell cigars and other goods in the burgeoning black market; young women sell their bodies in the burgeoning sex trade.

Without dollars, life is grim. People line up at dimly lit government distribution centres, ration books in hand - libretas, the government calls them - for their monthly allocation. The books, which were established in 1962 to "guarantee the equitable distribution of food without privileges for a few," entitle Cubans to 2.5 kilograms of rice, 1 kilogram of fish, 1/2 kilogram of beans, 14 eggs and sundry other basics at subsidized prices. Through the libreta, each Cuban also gets one bread roll a day. Every two months, a Cuban is entitled to one bar of hand soap and one bar of laundry soap. Fresh fruits and vegetables come infrequently; meat might come once or twice a year. Until the mid-1990s, children under seven were entitled to fresh milk, but fresh milk, like butter, cheese and other dairy products, is now off the shelves. Before the revolution, two litres of fresh milk cost 15 U.S. cents, well within the means of the poor.

Cuba, a country with a coffee culture, produces fine beans in its Oriente province, but not for average Cubans. The good stuff is sold to tourists and exported to earn dollars, or reserved for the Cuban elite, while the government imports cheaper beans, grinds them, mixes them with ground chickpeas, and doles out 28 grams per month - less than one ounce - to Cuban citizens. The government also exports high quality Cuban rice for dollars while importing a low-grade rice from Vietnam for its citizens. It exports 90% of its fresh fruits, directing much of the rest to tourists and others who can pay in dollars.

Nowhere in the world does the Almighty Buck more separate the haves from the have-nots. The Cuban government has adopted the U.S. dollar as an official currency that co-exists along with the peso and cleverly keeps the poor in their place. The multinationals operating in the country - Cuba now courts them to earn dollars - are forbidden to pay their Cuban workers directly in dollars. Instead, they must turn over the workers' wages to a government agency which pockets most of the money and gives the workers a pittance in pesos. Cuba's communists have perfected the Double Currency Standard, and the double standard: One currency for the rich, another for the poor, and the rich determine the means of exchange.

Cuba's poor are also squeezed in the other necessities of life. Even in central Havana, people commonly carry water by bucket from standpipes in the street to their homes, and then lift the buckets by rope to the higher floors, because their buildings' broken water pipes go unrepaired. Those lucky enough to have working water pipes can get water at the tap - but only at certain times. In one dense urban neighbourhood that I visited, the water flowed from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m., during which time families scrambled to fill pots and pans inside their homes for drinking water, and former oil drums outside their homes for washing. About the time that the water came on, the electricity went off - it, too, is rationed by daily blackouts......

Hey Hey Hey

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM

"TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said Monday that Tehran will continue to pursue nuclear technology, state television reported.

Khamenei's declaration came on the eve of Iran's self-imposed August 22 deadline to respond to a Western incentives package for it to roll back its nuclear program. The United Nations has given Tehran until the end of August to suspend uranium enrichment.

The supreme leader's remarks also came the day after Iran's armed forces tested surface-to-surface missiles Sunday in the second stage of war games near its border with Iraq. (Full story)"

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/21/iran.khamenei.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

Diplomats say Iran has refused U.N. inspectors access to its underground nuclear site, The Associated Press reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

I've told you people before, and I'll tell you again: Liechtenstein is next!

Mark my words.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:23 PM

"IT'S BEEN four years since the existence of Iran's nuclear program was confirmed, and since then Iran has succeeded in stalling the world's efforts to ensure that the country's enriched uranium is used exclusively for peaceful purposes. Sometimes inspectors from the U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency have been granted permission to enter the country; sometimes they have been denied access. Sometimes Iran's leaders have bluntly pledged never to give up their program; other times, as on Tuesday, they have called for immediate negotiations. By sending conflicting signals about its intentions, Iran has divided its critics and staved off sanctions, all the while continuing with its efforts to amass enriched uranium. The question now is whether the world will allow itself to be manipulated once again."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/23/AR2006082301803.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 01:54 PM

Iran's enemies are trying to deprive it of peaceful nuclear knowledge while the country has already achieved this through national resistance, he was also reported as saying.

His comments come on the heels of a U.N. report issued Thursday that states Tehran has not made any moves to suspend its uranium enrichment activities or comply with demands from the United Nations to verify that its nuclear program is peaceful.

Currently U.N. ambassadors are mulling over the six-page report from International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohammed ElBaradei, released on the deadline set by the Security Council for Iran to halt all of its nuclear activities or face economic sanctions.

The report, which has received mixed reactions, came on the deadline set by the Security Council for Iran to halt its nuclear activities. (Watch why Iran's program concerns the IAEA -- 2:48)

Thursday's deadline calls for Iran to comply with Resolution 1696 and end its nuclear activities or face the possibility of economic sanctions. The report by the IAEA paves the way for Security Council sanctions against Tehran.

Iran has insisted that its nuclear program is for peaceful civilian energy purposes. The IAEA could not confirm that, the report states.




The report also states that the IAEA is trying to obtain a 15-page report describing Iran's process of casting and forming uranium metal into "hemispheres." Experts say uranium metal must be cast into such shapes to form the core of a nuclear bomb.

The IAEA initially was allowed to review the document and take notes, according to the report. However, after a mid-August visit Iranian officials told inspectors they would not be able to analyze the report and destroyed the notes they had taken. The document remains under seal in Iran, the report states.






"Iran has been under IAEA investigation since 2003. Inspectors have turned up evidence of clandestine plutonium experiments, black-market centrifuge purchases and military links to what Iran says is a civilian nuclear program, according to the agency."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/01/iran.deadline/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:41 PM

Uh-huh. Still sweeping the Liechtensteinian threat under the carpet, I see...

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:58 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/09/19/japan.nkorea.ap/index.html

"TOKYO, Japan (AP) -- Japan's Cabinet approved a new set of financial sanctions against North Korea on Tuesday in response to the communist nation's missile tests in July, the government's top spokesman said.

Australia also imposed similar restrictions Tuesday.

The sanctions -- called for in a U.N. Security Council resolution that denounced the July launches -- ban fund transfers and overseas remittances by groups and individuals suspected of links to North Korean weapons programs.

"By taking these measures, we have demonstrated the resolve of the international community and Japan that is in line with the U.N. Security Council resolution," Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe said.

"I do not know how North Korea will respond, but I hope North Korea will accept the U.N. Security Council resolution in a sincere manner and respond to various concerns of the international community," he said.

Separately, Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said the sanctions were "consistent with our strong international stand against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction."

Japan's Finance Ministry and other government bodies quickly implemented the new sanctions. Parliament has previously voted to allow the government to impose such measures.

The new restrictions target 15 groups and one individual that have links to the North's weapons programs, Abe said. The measures also will tighten identification checks on people making suspicious transactions.

Communist North Korea's moribund economy is heavily dependent on cash infusions from a large community of sympathetic ethnic Koreans in Japan. Abe said the government devised its list of sanction targets using information from other governments and information from its own findings, including groups with histories of illegal activities. He did not give specifics."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:56 AM

"The new restrictions target 15 groups and one individual that have links to the North's weapons programs, Abe said. The measures also will tighten identification checks on people making suspicious transactions." - bb

Makes me wonder what groups and what national affiliations.

I actually think this goes to the 'heart of it'.

Now if we can just apply these same tactics worldwide...

If we can kill the profit motive, war will be much less desirable.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:43 AM

Why not Ireland next?, in a vote in the Dublin Sunday Tribune 80% of the voters said Bush had made the world a more dangerous place.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:41 AM

"Makes me wonder what groups and what national affiliations."

No need to wonder- just READ the source material.


"Communist North Korea's moribund economy is heavily dependent on cash infusions from a large community of sympathetic ethnic Koreans in Japan. Abe said the government devised its list of sanction targets using information from other governments and information from its own findings, including groups with histories of illegal activities. He did not give specifics.

Among the groups subject to the crackdown are Kohas AG, the Korea Kwangsong Trading Corp., the Korea Complex Equipment Import Corp., the Korea Mining Development Trading Corp., the Tosong Technology Trading Corp., Tanchon Commercial Bank and Ponghwa Hospital in Pyongyang.

The individual is Jakob Steiger, 65, president of Kohas AG, a Swiss company."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:52 AM

""North Korea's efforts to build and sell weapons of mass destruction depend on a vast network, the reach of which extends beyond Asia," said Stuart Levey, Treasury's under secretary for terrorism and financial intelligence.

The department alleged that Kohas AG has financial ties to a North Korean company, Korea Ryonbong General Corp., that the U.S. government believes has engaged in transactions to spread weapons of mass destruction. The government ordered that company's assets frozen last year.

Nearly half of Kohas AG's shares are owned by a subsidiary of Korea Ryonbong General -- called Korea Ryongwang Trading Corp., Treasury said. That company also was put on the government's blocking list last year.

Steiger owns the remaining shares of Kohas AG, Treasury said.

"Kohas AG acts as a technology broker in Europe for the North Korean military and has procured goods with weapons-related applications," Treasury said in a release. "Kohas AG and Jakob Steiger have been involved in activities of proliferation concern on behalf of North Korea since the company's founding in the late 1980s.""

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/03/30/us_targets_swiss_firm_for_n_korea_ties/

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:19 AM

World calls for N. Korea restraint
POSTED: 7:14 a.m. EDT, October 4, 2006
Adjust font size:
(CNN) -- A day after North Korea said it will conduct a nuclear test, world powers called for restraint.

The United Nations Security Council was due to discuss the issue later Wednesday amid growing fears over Pyongyang's military capabilities.

U.S. Ambassador John Bolton has already urged members to engage in "preventive diplomacy" and "come up not just with a knee jerk reaction."

China, North Korea's closest political ally, warned its neighbor against exacerbating tensions already simmering over the hermetic Stalinist country's nuclear ambitions.

"We hope that the DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea's -- the north's official name) will keep calm and restrained on the nuclear test issue," Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said in a statement reported by Chinese state media.

Japan's new Prime Minister, Shinzo Abe, took a tougher stand, as did South Korea's President Roh Moo-hyun.

"If North Korea were to conduct the nuclear test, it would be absolutely unacceptable," Abe said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/04/nkorea.nuclear.un/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:56 AM

Sure looks like a good time for the UN to demonstrate it can hold Hezbollah to the Lebanon ceasefire terms..... Unless you LIKE nuclear war.




U.S. warns North Korea against nuclear test
POSTED: 9:33 a.m. EDT, October 5, 2006
By Elise Labott
CNN
Adjust font size:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. envoy to stalled North Korea nuclear talks says the United States will not tolerate a nuclear North Korea and has warned Pyongyang not to test a nuclear weapon.

"We are not going to live with a nuclear North Korea," Assistant Secretary of State Chris Hill told the U.S.-Korea Institute at Johns Hopkins University Wednesday. "We are not going to accept it."

North Korea "can have a future, or it can have these weapons. It cannot have both," Hill said. The U.S. and its allies "are in a very tense time" in dealing with Pyongyang, Hill added. (Watch the U.S. look into the veracity of North Korea's claim of a planned nuclear test -- 1:56 )

......

Japan on Wednesday pressed a divided U.N. Security Council to adopt a statement urging North Korea to cancel its planned test and return immediately to six-party talks aimed at persuading Pyongyang to scrap its nuclear weapons program.

China calls for talks
Japan's U.N. Ambassador Kenzo Oshima, the current council president, circulated a draft text warning North Korea that a nuclear test would bring international condemnation, "jeopardize peace, stability and security in the region and beyond," and lead to further unspecified council action, AP reports.

"I think it is important for the international community, through the council, (to) let North Korea understand that noncompliance would involve some consequences," Oshima said."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/04/nkorea.nuclear.unresponse/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:02 PM

N. Korea leader rallies army commanders
Updated 10/6/2006 9:40 AM ET

SEOUL (AP) — North Korean leader Kim Jong Il rallied hundreds of top military commanders as world powers pressed the United Nations to censure his government amid mounting concern the isolated communist regime was preparing its first nuclear test.
Japan's vice foreign minister said the test could come as early as this weekend, the anniversary of Kim's appointment as head of the Korean Workers' Party in 1997. Japan said it was stepping up monitoring of North Korea.

RELATED: Chinese expect nuclear test near border

With tensions rising, North Korea's Kim met his top brass and urged them to bolster the nation's defenses, the North's official Korean Central News Agency said. Officers greeted him with rousing cheers of "Fight at the cost of our lives!"

North Korean state television aired still shots of the bouffant-haired leader waving to an assembled crowd of about 500 olive-suited officers in dress caps. Kim later posed for a group photo with his commanders in front of Pyongyang's sprawling mausoleum for his father and national founder, Kim Il Sung.

VIDEO: World boosts pressure on North Korea

The meeting was the reclusive leader's first reported appearance in three weeks and the first since Tuesday, when his government shocked the world by announcing plans to test a nuclear device on its way to building an arsenal of atomic weapons.

It was unclear when the rally took place, or how many attended, but it could show that Kim is trying to polish his credentials with the country's cherished military at a time when international pressure is mounting on Pyongyang.

The KCNA dispatch made no mention of a nuclear test.

Kim's last reported public activity was when KCNA reported on Sept. 15 that he visited the scenic Diamond Mountain near the border with South Korea.

The North claims to have nuclear weapons, but hasn't performed any known test to prove that. Six-nation talks aimed at persuading North Korea to abandon its nuclear ambitions have been stalled for almost a year, and North Korea says it needs an atomic arsenal to deter a possible attack from the United States.

Washington has repeatedly said it has no intention of invading North Korea.

Japanese Vice Foreign Minister Shotaro Yachi, currently in Washington, told the Japan's TV Asahi:

"Based on the development so far, it would be best to view that a test is possible this weekend."

Japan stepped up monitoring of North Korea.

"In consideration of various possibilities, we are preparing for whatever may happen," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuhisa Shiozaki said.

Japan has two intelligence-gathering satellites and launched a third in September that can monitor the North's nuclear weapons and missile programs.

On Thursday, a U.S. military plane capable of detecting radiation took off from Okinawa in southern Japan, thought to be a monitoring exercise in case North Korea carries out a test, according to media reports.

Overnight at the United Nations, Security Council experts reached agreement on a statement urging North Korea to cancel its planned nuclear test and return immediately to the six-nation talks. But the text needs final approval from council members.

Japan's U.N. Ambassador Kenzo Oshima said a statement "most likely" would be approved and read out on Friday morning after capitals give final approval.

The Japanese draft also urges North Korea to work toward implementation of a September 2005 agreement in which the North pledged to give up its nuclear program in exchange for aid and security guarantees. The six-party talks involve the two Koreas, the United States, China, Japan and Russia.

North Korea has boycotted the six-nation talks since late last year, angered by American financial restrictions imposed over the North's alleged illegal activities such as money laundering and counterfeiting.

While all council members view the possibility of a North Korea test with alarm, there were different views on how to approach Pyongyang's announcement.

U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said the United States wanted "a strong response" from the Security Council, not just "a piece of paper." But China, Russia and Japan indicated they wanted a more moderate initial response.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:48 AM

North Korea says nuclear test successful By BURT HERMAN, Associated Press Writer
32 minutes ago



SEOUL, South Korea -       North Korea faced a barrage of condemnation and calls for retaliation Monday after it announced that it had set off a small atomic weapon underground, a test that thrust the secretive communist state into the elite club of nuclear-armed nations.

The United States, Japan, China and Britain led a chorus of criticism and urged action by the       United Nations Security Council in response to the reported test, which fell one day after the anniversary of reclusive North Korean leader Kim Jong-il's accession to power nine years ago.

The Security Council had warned North Korea just two days earlier not to go through with any test, and the Pyongyang government's defiance was likely to lead to calls for stronger sanctions against the impoverished and already isolated country.

White House spokesman Tony Snow called for "immediate actions to respond to this unprovoked act" and said that the United States was closely monitoring the situation and "reaffirms its commitment to protect and defend our allies in the region."

       South Korea's geological institute estimated that the test's power was equivalent to 550 tons of TNT, far smaller than the two nuclear bombs the U.S. dropped on Japan in World War II.

The       U.S. Geological Survey said it recorded a magnitude-4.2 seismic event in northeastern North Korea. Asian neighbors also said they registered a seismic event, but only Russia said its monitoring services had detected a nuclear explosion.

"It is 100 percent (certain) that it was an underground nuclear explosion," said Lt. Gen. Vladimir Verkhovtsev, head of a Defense Ministry department, according to Russia's ITAR-Tass news agency.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:08 AM

North Korea claims nuclear test
POSTED: 5:58 a.m. EDT, October 9, 2006
Story Highlights• North Korea says it has successfully carried out underground nuclear test
• Pentagon is working to confirm the test
• Japan sets up task force to assess the situation
• South Korean stocks plunge on reports of North Korean test
Adjust font size:
SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea claimed it conducted a successful underground nuclear test Monday, according to the country's official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA).

China, a close ally of North Korea, denounced the claimed test as "brazen" and South Korea said it would respond "sternly." The United States said a test would constitute a "provocative act."

South Korea's president said Pyongyang's claimed test "broke the trust of the international community."

President Roh Moo-hyun said it brought "a severe situation that threatens stability on the Korean Peninsula and in northeast Asia."

South Korea would "react sternly and calmly" with "appropriate measures" in close cooperation with the international community, he told journalists after a summit with new Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

Abe told the same news conference his country would work "to make ways to implement action for a tough resolution."

CNN's Dan Rivers, speaking from the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea, said the key question now was what China -- which effectively allowed North Korea to exist economically -- would do.

The apparent nuclear test was conducted at 10:36 a.m. (1:36 a.m. GMT) in Hwaderi near Kilju city, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported, citing defense officials.

Reports of the claimed test triggered global condemnation (Full story).

Senior U.S. officials said the United States is consulting with allies around the world and would push for sanctions Monday at a 9:30 a.m. (1:30 p.m. GMT) meeting of the U.N. Security Council in New York.

South Korea's Defense Ministry raised the military alert level.

"The field of scientific research in the DPRK (North Korea's official name) successfully conducted an underground nuclear test under secure conditions on October 9 ... at a stirring time when all the people of the country are making a great leap forward in the building of a great prosperous powerful socialist nation," KCNA reported.

CNN's Matthew Chance said that Moscow said Russian equipment in the area had confirmed an underground test.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/09/korea.nuclear.test/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:09 AM

"Also Monday, North Korea accused South Korea of committing a serious provocation by firing warning shots during a weekend incident in which the South says soldiers from the communist North crossed over their border."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:14 AM

"The South is reconsidering plans to ship 4,000 tons of cement of emergency relief to the North for floods it suffered in mid-July, a Unification Ministry official said on customary condition of anonymity.

"South Korea won't be patient for everything, make concessions on everything and accept all demands from North Korea as it did in the past," Roh said.

Impoverished and isolated North Korea has relied on foreign aid to feed its 23 million people since its state-run farming system collapsed in the 1990s following decades of mismanagement and the loss of Soviet subsidies.

South Korea's Defense Ministry said the alert level of the military had been raised in response to the claimed nuclear test, but that it noticed no unusual activity among North Korea's troops."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:17 AM

"The North has refused for a year to attend international talks aimed at persuading it to abandon its nuclear ambitions. The country pulled out of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty in 2003 after U.S. officials accused it of a secret nuclear program, allegedly violating an earlier nuclear pact between Washington and Pyongyang."


How many nukes does it take to remove "allegedly" from in front of "violating"?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:20 AM

"China, a longtime North Korea supporter and host of stalled international talks to persuade the fellow communist country to give up its nuclear ambitions, strongly condemned the act.

"China expresses its resolute opposition," the Chinese Foreign Ministry said. The North "defied the universal opposition of international society and flagrantly conducted the nuclear test."

Australian Prime Minister John Howard said his government would call on the U.N. Security Council to take "swift and effective action" against North Korea, including financial, trade and travel sanctions.

"But if the United Nations fails to act effectively against this outrage from North Korea, it will represent a further diminution of its authority," Howard said.

A Security Council resolution adopted in July after a series of North Korean missile launches imposed limited sanctions on North Korea and demanded that the reclusive communist nation suspend its ballistic missile program — a demand the North immediately rejected.

The resolution bans all U.N. member states from selling material or technology for missiles or weapons of mass destruction to North Korea. It also prohibits all nations from receiving missiles, banned weapons or technology from the North, known as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, or DPRK."



Given Lebanon, I have such faith in UN resolutions and their effectivness......

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:39 PM

zzzzzzzzzz...

You're like the conservative Yang to Amos's liberal Yin, BB. You guys should combine your political threads so you could alternate posts instead of having to post over and over again with little or no response from the rest of the community.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:48 PM

If you think that being concerned over the increased chance of nuclear war is of no use, feel free to stick your head back in the sand.


BTW, how much asbestos has Canada shipped to the Far East this year?
What is is, 3 million dead over the next 30 years, to keep less than 1000 Canadians employed?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:22 PM

BB, I am not personally to blame for Canada's war and asbestos industries nor am I in any position to put a stop to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:35 PM

LH,

I am not personally to blame for the US's war and political industries nor am I in any position to put a stop to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:17 PM

No, but you are personally responsible for having posted to this thread 11 times in a row in order to indulge in expressing your personal obsession with North Korea. That's what I was referring to when I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:21 PM

True. I have a great desire NOT to have a nuclear war, and think that perhaps if FACTS are discussed, there might be someone who CAN have an effect.

If I am wrong, we are all toast anyway, so what have I to lose?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

btw, that was 11 between 20 Sep 06 - 07:41 AM and 09 Oct 06 - 07:20 AM . News happens- sorry I didn't just fill the page so you could complain about that.


Now what was YOUR excuse: 8 postings in 3 minutes to the same thread?


Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:55 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 05 - 06:55 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:32 PM

I appreciate your desire to avoid nuclear war. I'm sure we all (on this forum, I mean) share it.

My feeling is that major wars are virtually always started by great powers...or by clients of great powers who are acting at that great power's behest. They are symptoms of imperial competition and expansion.

I think the USA is very likely to start another war. It has already started two wars in recent times, both of which were planned long before they did start (and before 911 occurred). I think North Korea is quite unlikely to start a war, because they have nothing to gain from doing so and everything to lose. I think their efforts are defensive in nature, which is totally understandable given their position....they are grossly outmatched in destructive power by the USA and its surrogates.

Therefore, we are in fundamental disagreement about who is really a threat in this situation. ;-)

But you won't find me posting 11 times in a row on one thread to make my point. I'm not quite that compulsive, I suppose. Almost...but not quite! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:39 PM

"My feeling is that major wars are virtually always started by great powers"

Not from what I have read- look at WWI. each step was a small one, but added up to a global conflict. As N. Korea pushes, and Iran pushes, and Al Queda pushes, all it will take is one mistake and we have GTW. And NO-ONE has to "INTEND" for it to happen. The ONLY long-term peaceful eras in history is when there was one ( nearly) unchallanged power, and conflicts were kept small and controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM

Korea, and I bet it's China that does it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:46 PM

It is the USA that is doing most of the pushing, BB. They offered Afghanistan a carpet of gold OR a carpet of bombs...BEFORE 911. Why? They wanted to build oil pipelines across Afghanistan to the Indian ocean ports. That's pushing. The Afghans did not agree. They got a war, one that fit in perfectly with USA plans which were in the works before 911.

911 supplied the convenient excuse.

Too convenient by half.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM

The NK-test could still be either a fake or a failure.

NK now says they are going to test a nuke on a missile. Make me wonder where they plan it to come down. Their own country is kind of small and their missiles are not very reliable.

NK Fuehrer is plainly mad and not (yet) very dangerous to the world outside of NK.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 10:14 AM

Serbia carries some blame for the way Great War blundered into motion. But that wouldn't have mattered if the Great Powers hadn't all decided that going to war was preferable to the alternative.

Small countries and organisations can do things that provoke big countries - but the decision to respond to that by going to war is virtually always the big country's.

"It was all his/her fault for provoking me" is no kind of defence in court, and it shouldn't be in international affairs either. We are all responsible for the things we do outselves, and should acknowledge that responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 01:28 PM

Iran fires unarmed missiles
POSTED: 4:05 a.m. EST, November 2, 2006
Adjust font size:
TEHRAN, Iran (Reuters) -- Iran's Revolutionary Guards fired missiles able to carry cluster warheads at the start of 10 days of military maneuvers on Thursday, state television said.

Tehran had said the maneuvers, which will last until November 11 and include drills in the Gulf and Sea of Oman, would be a show of "defensive strength".

Tensions between Iran and western powers are high as the latter try to agree a draft U.N. sanctions resolution aimed at forcing Tehran to scale back atomic work they fear may be used to make bombs. Iran says its aims are purely peaceful.

"Dozens of missiles were fired including Shahab-2 and Shahab-3 missiles. The missiles had ranges from 300 km up to 2,000 km," Iranian state television reported, without showing any footage.

A reporter for state-owned Arabic-language Al-Alam television earlier told Reuters from central Iran, near where he said the missiles were fired, that Shahab-3 missiles could carry cluster warheads. State television confirmed this.

"Iranian experts have made some changes to Shahab-3 missiles installing cluster warheads in them with the capacity to carry 1,400 bombs," state television said. It did not say whether the unarmed missiles fired were carrying warheads at the time.

Experts say Iran's Shahab-3 missiles have a maximum range of some 2,000 km, making them capable of hitting Israel as well as U.S. military bases in the Gulf. They say the Shahab-2 missile has a range of up to 700 km.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/02/iran.manoeuvres.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:30 PM

refresh- WAKE UP, Ron Davies....

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:40 PM

So? If I was the Iranians, I would sure as hell be arming myself as well as I possibly could right now and demonstrating my capability to return fire effectively, having been labelled as part of an "Axis of Evil" and having been threatened by a superpower which has recently launched an unprovoked war against the country right next to me. Damn right I would.

What are you complaining about, Bearded Bruce? Would you prefer that they just unilaterally disarm, lie down and die, surrender now, and let the Americans come in and start building McDonald's franchises on every street corner?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 07:48 AM

Gza,

I would hope that they would cease to threaten thier neighbors, and comply with the international treaties that they have chosen to sign, and since violated.

What would YOU hope they do? Kill all the Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:05 PM

I am not impressed by your paranoia, Bearded Bruce, and I think you are a victim of propaganda. Iran has not attacked its neighbours. Iran has not invaded any other country. Iran is in a defensive posture, and for very good reason, because two of its immediate neighbours have been attacked and invaded by the USA and Britain.

In about the last 20 years the following full-scale military invasions have been launched in that region:

Iraq invaded Iran (with encouragement and aid from the USA)
Iraq invaded Kuwait
The USA and Britain invaded Iraq (twice now)
Israel invaded Lebanon (twice now)
The USA and Britain invaded Afghanistan (over a criminal act committed not by Afghanistan, but by a secret terrorist organization based in a number of different places, including Afghanistan)

Iran has not invaded anybody during that same period. Iran has been attacked and threatened with further attack.

They are the ones who ought to be paranoid, Bearded Bruce, and they have every reason to be testing and perfecting whatever missiles they have, and they also have a legal right to pursue a nuclear energy program if they want to. Their nuclear reactor is not an illegal device, and their enriching of uranium is not an illegal act, it is a perfectly normal thing for them to do if they are pursuing a nuclear energy program.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:18 AM

"they also have a legal right to pursue a nuclear energy program if they want to. "

Except that they signed the NNPA, and were given acces to nuclear technology under the conditions that it would be monitored- WHICH THEY HAVE NOW REFUSED.


"Their nuclear reactor is not an illegal device, "

Since IRAN signed the NNPA, the plutonium producing reactor is only legal if monitoered by the UN, and Iran has refused to allow the specified access to the inspectors- ie, the reactor IS illegal.



"and their enriching of uranium is not an illegal act,"

Since IRAN signed the NNPA, and has recieved the benifits from it, but has not allowed the inspections required, IRAN's enrichment of uranium IS illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:28 PM

Uh-huh. And also, the USA & Britain's pre-emptive war on Iraq was illegal, their occupation of Iraq is illegal, and the USA's setting up of prison camps such as Guantanamo is illegal, and the USA's use of torture on war prisoners is illegal.

So who has committed the worse illegalities here, and who has killed more people...Iran or the USA?

And what would you propose to do about such international criminals as those who launch unprovoked pre-emptive wars that cause death and misery to hundreds of thousands of people?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 06 - 12:59 AM

Russia is the prize. It will be Russia, by way of Iran.

The Neo-cons have begun psy-oping the American public to accept war with Russia. The Drudge Report has begun linking Iran to Russia with reports of nuclear exchange programs, arms sales, etc. Softening us up to accept some bogus accusations against Russia.

The neo-cons in the White House, by the way, are Trotskyite communists. Look up congressman Ron Paul's speech "Neo-conned" for the most complete and accurate definition of what a neo-con is. But they are communists. Trotskyites. They've taken over the Republican party through stealth and are now preparing to wage war against the Leninists of the old Soviet Union. People like Putin.

Some people call the Trotskyites "Jewish communists," but it's not as simple as that. True, Lenin and Stalin murdered lots of Jews, and half of Clinton's advisors were Jewish zionists, and Bush's advisors are zionists, and the head of Homeland Security has dual Israeli-American citizenship, and the zionist ADL is about to outlaw free speech in America with "anti hate-speech" legislation, but... Wait a minute. Maybe the zionists ARE running America and they ARE going to use us to attack Russia as payback for the pogroms. Never mind. Let's just keep it simple. Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- The U.N. nuclear watchdog agency on Friday suspended nearly half of the technical aid it now provides Iran, in line with U.N. sanctions slapped on the Islamic republic for its refusal to suspend its uranium enrichment program.

As IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei issued the report to his agency's 35-nation board, Iran's chief nuclear negotiator abruptly canceled planned meetings both with ElBaradei in Vienna and with senior European leaders in Munich, on the sidelines of a security conference in the German city.

Organizers of the Munich conference said negotiator Ali Larijani canceled because of an unspecified illness, while IAEA officials said they were told he was not coming for "technical reasons."

Larijani's meetings with German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and Javier Solana, the chief foreign policy envoy for the European Union, would have been the first with senior Western officials since negotiations with Solana collapsed last year over Tehran's refusal to suspend enrichment, a potential pathway to nuclear arms.

One diplomat in Vienna who is familiar with the Iranian file suggested that Larijani's decision not to show could have been due to the refusal of other major European nations, like France or Britain, to meet with Larijani because of his country's continued nuclear defiance.

The Vienna-based IAEA had already suspended aid to Iran in five instances last month in line with Security Council sanctions calling for an end to assistance for programs that could be misused to make an atomic weapon. On Friday, the agency fully or partially suspended another 18 projects that it deemed could be misused. All the decisions are subject to review and approval by the 35-nation board of the IAEA next month.

Iran gets IAEA technical aid for 15 projects and 40 more that involve other countries. The suspensions were across the board but in the case of projects involving other countries affected only Iran.

A diplomat familiar with the issue said the United States -- along with key allies -- had been looking to have up to half of the projects involving only Iran canceled, restricted or more closely monitored.

A U.S. official said Washington's position on what projects should be affected was "very similar" to that of the European powers, Britain, France and Germany.

Visible strains
The United States, Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany all want Iran to stop its enrichment program and have acted as a group in trying to engage Tehran on the issue. But their approaches and priorities have differed over the past year -- resulting in often visible strains in what is meant to be a joint initiative.

Russian and Chinese reluctance to slap harsh sanctions on Tehran -- as initially demanded by Washington -- have created the greatest pressures. Both nations share economic and strategic interests with Iran.

Differences over how severely to punish Tehran for its refusal to suspend enrichment led to months of disputes before agreement was reached in December on a Security Council resolution imposing limited sanctions that fell short of the harsher measures the Americans had pushed for.

The sanctions include a review of technical aid to Iran -- programs meant to bolster the peaceful use of nuclear energy in medicine, agriculture or power generation and the suspensions outlined in Friday's report were in line with that specification.

In November, the board of the agency indefinitely suspended an IAEA project that would have helped Iran put safety measures in place for a heavy water reactor that, once completed, will produce plutonium. Most of the projects up for review at the March meeting, however, are for programs that have less obvious potential weapons applications.

They include cancer nuclear waste storage programs, management training courses, safety projects and requests for help in international nuclear licensing procedures.

The March meeting also will hear a separate report from ElBaradei expected to confirm that Iran has expanded its enrichment efforts instead of mothballing them -- a development that would empower the Security Council to impose stricter sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

Fascinating. Now, how shall we, as a world community, "severely punish" the USA for outright and unprovoked wars of aggression on small countries such as Iraq (and various others in the past, because there have been several of them)?

What's worse? Enriching uranium and possibly (but not necessarily) building atomic weapons in secret (as Israel has done long ago)...or outright invading and attacking other countries and taking them over just because you want to and you can?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

LH,

Israel never signed the Nonroliferation agreement, which Iran did- and Iran benefitted from that-NOW they want to ignore the fact that they agreed to be monitored and restricted , in order to be given technology- NOT develop it on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:51 PM

Simpsons Dialog:

Marge (to Bart): Oh, now we'll have to find a new school for you.

Homer: Yeah, and if you get kicked out of that one, you're going straight in the army, where you'll get sent to America's latest military quagmire. Where will it be? North Korea? Iran? Anything's possible with Commander Cookoo Bananas in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:52 PM

Sort of like signing a mortgage, then refusing to pay it off- as opposed to building your own house.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:13 PM

When it comes to this sort of thing, BB, I am much more concerned with the spirit of the law than I am with the letter of the law. I've noticed that people always yell about technical legal violations by people they are already against for some reason...but they remain mysteriously silent about similar or even much worse technical legal violations by people they are already for.

Typical human psychology. ;-) No one is totally objective or fair, everyone is prejudiced.

As for me, I generally focus more on the wrongdoings of the powerful and mighty in this world as opposed to the wrongdoings of the weak. The powerful are more dangerous than the weak, and they commit greater crimes and hurt more people. That's my prejudice. I will usually side against great empires and in favour of their victims.

Thus, in 1775 I am quite certain I would have been supporting George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Ben Franklin and opposing the bloody British Empire. The American revolutionaries were the "communists" and "terrorists" of their day...in the eyes of mainstream society...because mainstream society was monarchist, and had been for a very, very long time. The radical new republican ideals espoused by the American revolutionaries in the 1770's were every bit as despised by that mainstream society and every bit as radical in their time as the ideals of leftist radicals who fight the USA now in South and Central America.

The historical roles have switched. The USA now occupies the same bloody and hypocritical ground that was occupied by Great Britain when the British Empire was the greatest power in the world. The USA now stands directly in the way of democracy, equality, freedom, and social justice on this planet. It has betrayed the ideals of its founding fathers about as completely as could possibly have been done. And that was all done for what? For money.

As for the Islamic government in Iran...I do not in any way admire it, but I do support Iran's right to self-determination and self-rule as I would with any other country. I will not support them if they attack someone. I will support them if they defend themselves against an attack. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:07 PM

" It has betrayed the ideals of its founding fathers about as completely as could possibly have been done. And that was all done for what? For money."

And Canada, sending its asbestos to SE asia, with an expected kill rate of 3+ million over the next few decades? $$$$$- and the jobs of a thousand miners.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:13 PM

Of course. Canada is run by exactly the same mega-corporations and great financial powers that run the USA. We're just an American branch plant up here. We're part of the American Empire. What did you expect? ;-)

That's why our soldiers serve as your hired dogs in Afghanistan too.

Be that as it may, Canada is still a bit saner place to live in, on the whole. We have universal medicare and a much lower murder rate per capita than the USA. Mind you, things can always get worse, can't they?