BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:37 PM

Yes, one wonders. I have the impression that the USA is scoping out Iran very carefully indeed, using spy drones, satellites, and whatever else comes to hand...and they're probably doing it in preparation for a forthcoming attack on Iran. They are now perfectly positioned to hit Iran from both sides (Iraq and Afghanistan) and from their ships in the Gulf. I think they will find it hard to resist, given the opportunity, so they will be looking for excuses and provocations.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:37 AM

Y'all might want to give this link a very good look-see. Iran is a very different animal from Iraq. Very different. Pay close attention please to the geography section on the link--specifically elevation extremes. Iran would do to the USA what Afghanistan did to the old USSR. Very bad move, IMO. Logistics are a nightmare.

HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:41 AM

http://www.gospatial.com/ProductImages/I-MID-011.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:29 AM

You're right about that brucie!

Not only that, the Iranian people might not like the current government but they hate the U.S. even more.

Now that Iran and Syria have formed a defensive alliance, the U.S. had better not do something stupid AGAIN!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:45 AM

In the event of an attack on Iran, it is pretty evident that holding down Iraq would be even more of a problem, with the Shi'ite majority, and the Shi'ite dominated government bitterly hostile.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:06 AM

They'll go for Iran. Koreas safe cause they can hit back. Bullies don't like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:23 AM

It's evident from the behaviour of the present US administration that they don't understand Middle East politics. They seem to think that if the population of a country is unhappy with their government, it means that they want America to intervene, whereas the majority of them would rather put up with the Saddam Husseins of this world than have the US infidels in their country.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:14 AM

I feel rather suspicious about this assassination in Lebanon which is being blamed on Syria? And its timing. (And don't anyone sound off about "conspiracy theories" - by definition any assassination pretty well has to be a conspiracy, it's just a matter of who is conspiring, and why.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:09 AM

Anti-Syrian protests of mourners (Guardian) remind us that not only the Iraq is an occupied country in the Near-East.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:03 AM

Beirut and the Lebanon should in itself be an object lesson to GWB, it has gone from being a beautiful prosperous city to what it now is, in a series of political and religious wars and occupations. Democracy doesn't seem to have offered any answers there, and it won't in Iraq.
How can a country which has such a corrupt, and only titular democracy itself, hold their system up as an example to others? How many people were disenfranchised in Florida 4 years ago, how many bills were passed or vetoed due to pressure by big business contributors to political funds.
'The People have Spoken' is crap, only money talks, in this as in so many other so called democracies, and that definitely includes this bunch of spin merchants in the UK.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 10:36 PM

Glockamorra.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 11:46 PM

Too bad that dubblepew bush has ignored the real threat of terrorists & attacked ol' saddumm sadsack insane stead. Now, the terrorists & guerillas from all over the world are banding together which is much worse than the jihaad was before dubblepew was placed in office. Of course, he had to make sure that the family oil business got their oil, not to mention the veep, as the vice pres is also a texas oilman-despite the location of his so called residence as of late--just ask anyone in the oil business.
    We are very fortunate that China talked n. korea down from pushing the "red button" on us, because that is exactly what was getting ready to happen as that dictator is as bad or worse than dubblepew. China didn't want all out bloody hell war in their backyard to screw up shipping lanes in the region from another conflict from N Korea & the USA, as China has it's entire economy wrapped up in exports to the USA.
    I suppose, then, that since dubblepew already has waged war in Iraq, the next place is right next door.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:16 AM

?????

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:36 PM

Monaco?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:02 PM

I think two things will happen:

1) The US will try to destabilize Iran; cause internal strife.

2) The US will bargain with Korea.

Regardless of the military might of the USA, it does NOT have the legs to fight major wars in two places without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons. I am not aware whether or not the US still has submarine-launched cruise missiles or MIRV capability from undersea boats. If so, then neither country poses a 'problem' with regard to the US being able to hit targets. However, Korea does have a nuclear capability--and they would have the will to use it. Ground-based troops are OK on the ground, but they don't do a heckuva lot for you when your enemy can bomb you from air, sea and beneath the ocean surface. Which war will be next will be determined in rooms by military academics based on information as to the enemy's will to fight--and the numbers in which that enemy is willing to expend its population. Neither scenario will be good at this time. In five years? That's another ballgame.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:15 PM

But the main target he has in mind for eliminating is the USA. I mean, those aspects of the USA that are really worth admiring, and really being proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:15 PM

Oldies but prophetic goodies

The endless war (until the oil is gone)

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/assaulton.jpg


"found on a PNAC laptop"

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/mideastnew2.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:30 AM

Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, an influential former Iranian president preparing to run again in June, said Tehran was determined to embark on uranium enrichment and other branches of nuclear technology.

"And we will have it at any cost," he told worshippers in Tehran.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/04/29/iran.nuclear.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:48 PM

The only thing that can stop Iran from going nuclear is Iran.

If done properly and with the cooperation of China and S. Korea, taking out that pr*ck Kim Jong Il would be a plus for humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:33 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/01/northkorea.missile/index.html

note:

"Last week, U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency Director Lowell Jacoby testified on Capitol Hill that, according to a U.S. assessment, North Korea has the capacity to arm a missile with a nuclear device and hit U.S. territory.

Such a "two-stage" missile is "assessed to be within their capacity," Jacoby said in response to a question from Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, a New York Democrat.

The Pentagon later argued that Jacoby was not stating new information but only reiterating his previous statements that North Korea has a "theoretical capability to produce a warhead and mate it with a missile."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:40 PM

"taking out that pr*ck Kim Jong Il would be a plus for humanity."

Restaurant or movie?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:49 PM

so, brucie, which would you prefer-

removing Kim Jong II ( one life, with a few thousand guards) or 200,000+ american civilians and most of the North Koreans in the world ( after a nuclear exchange)?

Just looking at possibilities...

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:36 PM

Well? What would Canada do?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:49 PM

Canada would offer to share donuts and coffee at Tim Horton's. :D That's what I would do too. Makes more sense than attempting to cow people with death threats, if you ask me.

Anyway, I thought it was illegal to issue death threats...

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:51 PM

LH,

Canada was in N. Korea before. If the cease-fire fails, what would you recommend the UN forces do?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:24 PM

"Well? What would Canada do?"

We'd sell 'em asbestos and kill 'em that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:40 PM

I am sure you would- but that does not solve the problem. Obviously, whatever the US does is wrong- But I am giving you the chance to go on-record with what should be done.... and accept the responsibility if it is tried, and fails.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:43 PM

Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true.
Just because your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:44 PM

I am giving YOU the opportunity to tell us all what YOU think.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:48 PM

Here is from the C in C of the USA: "What I am against is quotas. I am against hard quotas, quotas they basically delineate based upon whatever. However they delineate, quotas, I think, vulcanize society. So I don't know how that fits into what everybody else is saying, their relative positions, but that's my position."

Folks, it doesn't get any clearer than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:49 PM

brucie,

How cute and original....

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:53 PM

No thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:14 AM

Take your pick! If either of them prove to be a threat to our freedom, and are attacked because of it, you will benefit from not being attacked by a nuclear weapon from either, and still be able to bitch because you were not incinerated.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:28 AM

I think Canada should feed the Koreans our beef and sell them our lumber. I think we should cultivate Korea as a trading partner. We could sell them asbestos and uranium, too. They could help us keep the U.S. in their place.

In the meantime, Iran should start developing their nuclear capabilities so that they can defend themselves and their resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 05 May 05 - 12:02 PM

Doug,

You ain't makin' a whole helluva lot more sense than your friend there. Course, maybe his views have got to be more rational in the past day. I've given up reading them. I'm about to give up reading yours, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 05 May 05 - 12:44 PM

From what I'm seeing in the US media right now, it looks like they're also softening us up for an assault on Sudan. However, which one they go for first, Iran, Korea, or Sudan, is not something I'm going to speculate on just yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:38 PM

Sudan for sure. Logistics, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:40 PM

Why Sudan? The UN is taking such good care of things there....

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 05 May 05 - 03:16 PM

I guess they figure the time is right, beardedbruce. Most of the people have been cleared from the land by the government of Sudan and the Janjaweed, and now the US can swoop in for the kill (and take control of the oil) with a minimum amount of effort and expense, now that others have done most of the dirty work for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 May 05 - 08:49 PM

the real question isnt whos next, as it is very unlikely the US
has anymore spare forces, without bringing in a draft -but rather
how high is the Mogadishu line - ie. the number of US casualties the American public is willing to accept for an optional war.

Certainly the value has gone up since 911 but its unlikely that it would be in the 10s of thousands.

BUsh had to scrape the barrel to maintain troop level in Iraq,without
bringing in a draft prior to the election. There will be no invasions of any other countries on the second watch.

Whats interesting about Irans nuclear ambition is how it is perceived in the US media. Iran has some semblance of Democracy, far more than China and yet there are no real concerns about Chinas nuclear ability.

Or is it the fact that America is nervous about an Islamic state getting a hold of nuclear weapons? Thats also unlikely as no one seems to worry about Pakistan. And yet, Pakistans AQ Khan had a network which traded missile technology with Korea in exchange for nuclear weapon technology, as well as an underground nuclear market.

What happened to AQ Khan, he was put under house arrest by Musharraf
and promptly pardoned, and American intelligence never even had a chance to interview him. THis makes Saddams imagined wmds look more like sunday school.

What about bringing democracy to the rest of the world? Well its not up to America to force it on people, there have been at least 16non-violent revolutions in the last 20years, starting with the Phillipines, .. INdonesia, Georgia, etc. and the US had nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:02 PM

there have been at least 16non-violent revolutions in the last 20years, starting with the Phillipines, .. INdonesia, Georgia, etc. and the US had nothing to do with it

I wouldn't bet on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:14 PM

There are hard rumours here that N Korea is just about ready to test a bomb.

If that happens then maybe China will act in a harder manner to bring the N Koreans to the negotiating table. China does not want a nuclear capable neighbour right on its own borders.

The Chinese Govt and the US Govt would have to work along with the South Koreans and the Japanese.

Problem there is that the US has declared (along with Japan) support for Taiwan should the Chinese try and take it by force.

China is having a spat with Japan at present over natural resources, territorial disputes in the S China Sea and Japan seeking a seat on the UN Security Council. The riots in China over the last few weeks against Japanese business's were govt approved and used the excuse of history books used in Japan's schools to whip up Chinese nationalists.

The lid has been put back on that one for a while as the govt started to worry about the riots getting out of hand.

So we have four countries, all of which distrust each other, to try and bring the N Korean's back into line. Not a good start.

If, and I do not think it will happen, the US launches a strike on N Korea then I dread to think what will happen. Bringing down the North Korean Govt could lead to even more instability in a country where military rule has prevaled for over 50 years.

GWB should leave Iran to be dealt with by the Europeans, the Iranians totally distrust any of the US motives. The European countries are trading partners with Iran and hold a few more cards than does the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: GUEST,Petr
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:07 PM

Carolc, do you believe the US may have been behind the Aquino revolution in the Phillippines, not bloody likely, considering how cozy Reagan was with Marcos. When the communist regimes fell in Eastern Europe, the US inteligence community was caught by surprise, its still widely regarded as a major inteligence failure, just like 911. So they didnt have much to do with it and what might come as a surprise to most Americans, the US is not needed to spread democracy.


here's Bush take on US spreading of Democracy..

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:19 PM

In fact the US was dead against having the election in Iraq at first, and had to back down and allow it. Here's a piece by Noam Chomsky that provides a different angle on it from the mainstream media."...finally the US (and UK, trailing obediently behind) had no recourse but to allow an election�and of course, the doctrinal system went into high gear to present it as a US initiative, once it could no longer be avoided."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:38 PM

Carolc, do you believe the US may have been behind the Aquino revolution in the Phillippines, not bloody likely, considering how cozy Reagan was with Marcos.

No, I wasn't specifically suggesting that the US had anything to do with this one.

When the communist regimes fell in Eastern Europe, the US inteligence community was caught by surprise, its still widely regarded as a major inteligence failure, just like 911. So they didnt have much to do with it

I wouldn't bet on that one. And I wouldn't necessarily call what the former Soviet Union has now as "democracy". I tend to think that had the US not interfered as much as it did in the politics of that region, Gorbachev might have been able to usher in a true democracy in what is now the former Soviet Union, rather than the cronyistic cleptocracy that they have now, with organized crime running the show.

what might come as a surprise to most Americans, the US is not needed to spread democracy.

The US government is not in any way attempting to spread democracy. All they really want is compliant puppet regimes and client states that will secure the oil and give them unfettered access to their natural resources, permission to build military bases, and a balance of power that keeps the US in a position of global supremacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 May 05 - 03:19 PM

Today's New York Times has an article regarding Shanghaiceltic's mention of rumors. Something is going on over there, but it's kind of hard to tell just what with that incredible regime.

N. Korea may be preparing N-Test

According to the article, the US is warning the bordering countries to buckle down a bit. If there is a test, one imporant thing will be to get air samples which will tell a lot about what kind of technology they have.

I sure hope someone is vacuuming A Q Khan (in Pakistan) of all the information he gave to variouis parties. He's a one man cataclysm.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:52 PM

Few hours old.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_7-5-2005_pg7_57

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 05 - 10:48 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,1478641,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 05 - 02:13 AM

May 7 update.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 07 May 05 - 06:28 PM

Thanks for the links Brucie.

Not a comfortable situation. China provides oil and gas to N KOrea and the year before last turned off the supplies for a month which resulted in the N Koreans coming back to the table.

I have not travelled to N Korea but several friends of mine have. They were looking at potential business oportunities, which did not pan out as the people they were dealing with were hard line Koreans and wanted a lot for nothing. A bit similar to the negotiations so far.

What they did say was that it was very eerie, they were not allowed out unescorted, they were restricted in what they could photograph and they could not talk to anyone on the street without prior approval.

They visited one primary school where they were greeted with a little song and dance routine by 6 year old about how N Korea would destroy the US and anyone who opposed it.

If the kids are brainwashed just think how the adults behave. This country is probably one of the most dangerous in the world but containing it is not a straightforward issue to say the least.

In the meantime the Chinese authorities continue to 'repatriate' escapees from the North on the grounds they are economic migrants. I guess this is being done so to keep dialogue open with the N Koreans. It would seem even the Chinese deal with them with kid gloves.