BS: It's over. Bush wins!

Subject: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM

Kerry has just conceded defeat.

America has spoken.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:50 AM

Yup, so he has.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:57 AM

You are right. I mean, correct.   America has spoken. Now it is up to us to continue a dialogue.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM

Nothing wrong with dialogues.

Nothing wrong with trying to pull together, either.

Some dialogues will continue to harm the country and promote the on-going division in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:02 PM

So you agree Martin that you also have a metal cock

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

Bush wins.

Everyone outside America loses.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

Not healthy dialogues. This country is divided. I think some of the issues are not going to be easy to pull together on, such as our stance on the war, but we can't afford not to try.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

I've just sewed my black armband.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

Ellenpoly, why don't you do something positive instead to try to help pull America together and make it a better place instead of wearing a black armband?

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM

or replacing your cock with a spoon

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM

Martin Gibson, I am doing something positive. I am showing the country I reside in at this moment, that not everyone feels this result is a cause for celebration. I also did something positive by voting against a very dangerous man at the head of an even dangerous administration.

I will also continue dialogues as they present themselves because that is the only way things change.

And they will change.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:20 PM

Yes, obviously they will change in 4 years. Very profound statement.

I'm hoping a much better Democrat will be there to vote for, as I am not a repubican but a true independent.

I am hoping for Hilary.

Guest, LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

Not a divided country, as much as a divided Democratic party. We'll now see the Republicrat bloodletting begin in earnest.

The progressive ranks will be VERY angry, and in no mood to settle in for a 4 year winter's nap...

Maybe if Kerry had bothered to show up for the Million Worker March instead of dissing the left and progressive ranks in his party...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM

Whatever...

Now, what are the chances of Bush seeing his 4 years term out?

Be ready to welcome Cheney as President.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:36 PM

Let's be honest. When has the country ever NOT been divided, for one reason or another? No one elected official has the power to un-divide a nation of such diverse peoples. If we want to work together to make the country better, then that's up to us, not whoever's President.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,What you can do
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/softwares.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

If Bush is the voice of American, I think it's got a severe speech impediment...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

I'm for pulling together, but the Bush administration is not; this is one of my main gripes with them. Perhaps THE main gripe.

President Bush: "I do not need to explain why I say things. — That's the interesting thing about being the President. — Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

My way or the highway. This is not the voice of a "uniter."

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:14 PM

Clint - pulling together is up to the people, not the President.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:26 PM

Kim-"Together" means " In association with or in relationship to one another," according to my dictionary.

Teamwork means we all pull together; it doesn't mean George cracks the whip and the team pulls the wagon. George may be the team captain, but the captain is part of the team too.

What some Republican called "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" does not mean thoughtless obedience.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

IMO, the people aren't in any mood to pull together, because they just plain can't do it. The cultural divide is very real. While I believe this election will end up being the high water mark for the Republican party and it's grip on governance, unless the progressive left starts fighting and pushing back at the Republican right--which it hasn't done up to this point--I might even be wrong about that.

Look. The evangelical Christians might be 25% of the electorate in Ohio, but they are in a distinct minority. If it were not for 9/11, the "war on terror", the Iraq war, and the fear mongering about cultural issues, there is no way the Christian right, even in the south, would have been much of a factor this year.

The number of religious Americans are rapidly declining, not increasing. The cultural issues the Republicans used to drive a wedge between the baby boomers and their aging parents, don't resonate with the upcoming generation AT ALL. The anti-gay movement will be reversed in time, because the voters coming of age right now find the whole anti-gay thing to be abhorrent.

The anger among youth at their dispossession by both parties is definitely palpable on the street. They have no faith in either political party. Same is true of moderates and progressives from both parties (what few there are left in the Republican ranks that haven't been successfully driven out in the Rove pogroms that is).

The number of registered independent voters grows with each election, whether they swingers between the parties, or actually registered as indies. In this election in particular, the numbers already show that more and more moderates of both parties, young people, and independents either swung to Kerry in the last couple weeks, or they didn't vote in this election at all.

The Democratic Leadership Council certainly has no mandate, that's fer sure! Be prepared for those heads to start rolling...as soon as the party bosses wake up and smell the coffee.

There is also an uprising building in the labor movement right now, that has been gaining steam since the Clinton sell out years. The oil wars are ready to explode...the anti-globalist youth movement is ready to hit the streets, and will likely make Seattle look like a cake walk.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:45 PM

Bush wins. The world loses. This should be a day of mourning. Bush has done every single thing wrong as president. I can't imagine what made anyone vote for him. He is a fool, and he is dangerous. Don't blame Kerry. He did everything right but it wasn't enough. The majority of the voters were wrong. The election is over, but we have to keep fighting for what is right any way we can. Forget about being "united." Once the country was divided about slavery. Good thing the abolitionists didn't give up in favor of national "unity." Or the women suffragists. Or the civil rights movement. The plus side is, Bush is so bad that the opposition has been mobilized.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:00 PM

I agree with everything you said Guest 1:45, up to this statement of yours: "The plus side is, Bush is so bad that the opposition has been mobilized."

I disagree very strongly with that statement. The Democratic party and the Kerry campaign very effectively marginalized the true progressive opposition movement to Bush/Cheney this year. They very effectively took all the wind out of the sails of the international peace movement. They demonized anyone involved in the progressive left movements in the US who refused to endorse Kerry, though there weren't very many of them even. The acquiesence and capitulation strategy among the progressive left won the day among all but a small, handful of leftists, most of whom didn't hold out just with Nader, but tried to hold out as Greens, though most were just utterly demoralized, so put their heads down, kept working, and withheld support from the Democratic party by not organizing for them and not voting at all.

There is a very small core vanguard movement on the progressive left that held out and didn't acquiesce and capitulate to the Democratic party lesser of two evils strategy, but the Democratic party establishment is in no mood to hear from them. Pulling the progressives back to their deep grass roots isn't going to be easy, or even necessarily quick. We are going to have to fight the Democratic party even harder than we are going to have to fight the Republicans.

The one bright, shining moment this morning for me was the realization that the American progressive left that DID stand strong and hold out against the Republicans AND Republicrats, pretty much have a majority backing among progressives around the world.

But we have quite the uphill battle in the US, because first we have to fight our way out of the state of capitulation funk the US progressive left has been in since Dean lost the primaries. Dean wasn't the best progressive leftist on the block, for sure. But he at least paid lip service to Wellstone's Democratic wing of the Democratic party line, and was clearly anti-war.

What we have now is just a horrific mess, and wounded, battle hardened old guard Democrats in their death thoes, who will go to any lengths to try and keep the progressive left from rising up and taking over the party now. It's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM

When Reagan was elected a good American friend said:

"George the Third was right, we Americans are not fit to govern ourselves".

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM

What do you think Dave, should we liberate them, then?
In fairness to the Americans, your friend must have had a chip on his shoulder.
I don't like that Bush got elected. 48+% of Americans don't like it either. But elected he was - and they (and we) have to live with this and work with this fact.

What would really worry me is if Bush doesn't make it to the end of the term. I worry that those who used him as a puppet-front will have little use for him in the future, and they will contrive a way to edge himm out, for Cheney to take over - whether for reasons of health, or using even more sinister methods.

But - whatever. The citizens of the USA have voted, in great numbers indeed, and they have chosen. May I be wrong and may they have chosen right. But I would never say that they are not fit to govern themselves. I would never say that of any nation.

Not even Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM

Ah well GUEST,perhaps we should feel sorry for them.
Date raped AGAIN .....At their age.
But we know they love it, dont we?
They have this need to feel worthless, dirty, abused.....Thats why they come back ,again and again, no matter how we try to advise and protect them
But their really "old slappers" under the skin and need their shot of ritual humiliation.

It could all have been so different if it hadn't been that horrible, horrible Bush, but the bold Sir kerry.
The future would have been one endless honey moon.

But how could we have suffered their girlish Mudcat babble ,of clean slates, new beginnings,brave new future ...

Perhaps its all for the best....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:30 PM

I agree--every nation is capable of self government, including Iraq. There is a much larger percentage than 48% who do not share the values of the current administration and US government, or the majority of it's voting citizens: the non-voters. Those who share progressive values are actually in the majority in the US population as a whole, when you look at the marketing demographics, instead of the political demographics.

It is only in the political demographics, ie the political class, that is truly polarized and fighting for control of the government via the culture wars.

Progressive cultural values have already long since won in the marketplace of ideas and of idealism. The dead horse being flogged by the Republican right and Republicrat right, is the political right fighting for the scraps, with the support of the global capitalist oligarchy.

We're out here in the political wilderness folks, waiting for the Republicans and Republicrats to finish their wars and die off. Our progressive children will inherit this nation, and they simply won't put up with our culture wars bullshit once they take over.

Cultural conservatism is on it's way out in the US as it is around the globe. The cultural conservatives, however, have all the capital and all the guns. So they are winning for now. But certainly not forever. Not even for a very long time.

We are going to start paying the piper in the US very soon for global warming, for the worst health care system in the so-called developed world, for dissing the ascendant classes of cultural progressives (or cultural creatives if you follow the marketing gurus), single women, people of color, and the working class and poor people who are a whole lot smarter, it seems to me right now anyway, than all those Republicrats and their PhDs fighting to defend their comfy, cushy, status quo lifestyles and their children's right to inherit wealth instead of work for it, and pull up the economic ladder behind them.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

"There is a much larger percentage than 48% who do not share the values of the current administration and US government"

So you are saying that some of the 51% that voted for Bush do not share his values?   Talk about a wasted vote! Who needs Nader if they area going to throw their vote away on a candidate they don't support?

Sorry, but non-voters really do not count in this arguement. They had their opportunity to create a change and they didn't get out and vote.

"Those who share progressive values are actually in the majority in the US population as a whole"
If you used the term "liberal" as opposed to "progressive", I might agree with you. The problem is you have not shared where you get your information from.   How do you back up such a claim? Is it a W.A.G.??

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:15 PM

well, I promised I would limit my commentes to "...so, now we shall see..."
but I will add, for the rest of the world which wonders about us,.....remember there were 55 million of us who DIDN'T vote that way.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM

El Greko: I have no idea how good a musician you are, but one thing I will grant you, you have a marvelous imagination.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:22 PM

The best we can hope for now is that Bush doesn't spin his narrow popular vote victory into some sort of mandate to launch whatever insane scheme God or whoever he listens to will whisper in his ear.....

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM

Hide under your bed, guest.

Gee, Bobert, Jack the Sailor, and Ron Davies have sure been nowhere to be found today.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

Having just heard the Concession speech and the Bush acceptance speech all I can say is----intelligence and graciousness trumped by the usual stubborn belligerance.

THe Cheney intro was, frankly, frightening. No reaching out for unity--mere gloating with the usual Darth Vader look. W on the other hand gave the usual platitudes about the opposition and then proceeded to, basically, say it will be business as usual---and now with what he considers a mandate---that only he could consider it being.

Granted the Edwards intro to Kerry was a bit harsh--but, he is surely a cheerleaded. The Kerry speech was gracious, warmhearted and as always--Lincolnesque. He also spoke of unity and asked his supporters to for helping in creating this unity and not to feel their work was for nought.

Finally---I don't know how many here have read 1984. The decor of Reagan Hall in DC for the Bush speech was, to me frightening. The Huge "W"s around the hall in the particular font they were in was so reminiscent of that great book and the government it spoke of.

Well---at least they both ended with God Bless America. Trouble is that Bush really believes that he has private communication with that deity.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:56 PM

"Teamwork means we all pull together"

I believe that's what I said. I don't believe I said anything about anyone cracking a whip. I mean that WE have to be the instigators, the motivators, and stop relying on whoever's in charge to be the effector of change.

And Bill, people do have private communication with God. It's called prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:44 PM

Well said, Kim C as you so usually do!

I always read your sensible posts.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:51 PM

Right, prayer---usually one talks to Him/Her--or what have you---W is so sure he is getting private consults---well, so does Pat Robertson. Problem is each one believes that the deity is to talking to him---check Robertson's last interview re: the campaign.

Kerry,to myknowledge does not make such claims---but then again maybe he couldn't afford the "roaming" charges to have that type of private conversation.




Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:11 PM

We have a legally and fairly elected president. I can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:28 PM

For sure---and Amen to that. Too bad it was not so the first time around and the agenda is not changed now that he feels he has a "mandate"---though acting like he had one in term 1 also.

One wonderful thing though. This nation has survived many such contested and divided eras because of the foresight and intellect of the founders---who also disagreed but came up with compromises. Let us hope---and in this current evangalical furor---pray---that our duly elected leader (and his ventriloquist)can behave like these earlier paradigms of principle.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:29 PM

you all shut up and start planning the assisinations.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:34 PM

"I do not need to explain why I say things. — That's the interesting thing about being the President. — Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

What kind of fucking idiot would say something like this about the country he's in charge of? If you ask me, hell, even if you don't, Bush is only a few steps away from being a tyrant!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:35 PM

"'Merica' has spoken...oh god help us!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM

Now---besides needing to learn how to spell---that is SICK. I would never invite you as a guest---you are a sick and scary kind of person.

As usual a discussion here has led to the usual claptrap from the intelligentsia of the intelligently challenged---read: Morons.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

My missive was directed to GUEST---in case there is any misunderstanding.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM

good, good Bill...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

So does this mean we're going to get a better standard of BS on the Cat now?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

We can hope!!!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:49 PM

The thread was started by Martin - do you seriously think this conversation had any other direction to go?

You millions voted for Kerry and are really "bummed" that Kerry lost, are going to now sit on your fat lazy asses and accept the crap that Bush is going to sling at you for the next 4 years. You piss and moan, cry for yourself and point to the people worse off that you and yet you do NOTHING else to make a change.

It will be on your heads when what freedom you have right now is removed from you in the near future.

Maybe, the assassins should start with you idiots first.

And guess what – I sent this message through the spell checker just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From:
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:56 PM

Well, I did find it interesting, considering how the Bush campaign really pushed the "War on Terrorism" issue, how the states where a possible future terrorist attack would most likely take place voted overwhemingly Democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,2
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:24 PM

Guest, it is so obvious from reading your posts that you have done NOTHING in your miserable life to promote change. You huff and puff and make wild ass statements that have not one shred of common sense. Hot air. You are a social outcast that never could work with any "progressive" group that I know. Give it up, you don't stand a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Wayne Monroe
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

"No one ever went broke misunderestimating the intelligence of the American people."

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,GUEST 3
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

Freekin' Nazi!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Pootie Tang
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

I say we form a network of cells, stage attacks on the opposition and eliminate as many of them as we can.
We can release videotapes of our demands and take hostages whenever possible to prove our point.

After a few years of this they will be willing to make a deal and see it our way.

Pootie

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: PennyBlack
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:07 PM

why didn't we in the 51st State have a vote?

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM

I am assuming they fixed the glitch in the diebold machines.

d

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:41 PM

My first reaction is that I'm not as depressed as I thought I would be. Bush has been immeasurably stronger in this campaign than last time - a much stronger candidate than the gauche loon of four years ago. I still cannot stomach much of what he stands for, but I see signs that he is beginning to understand some of the issues.

I didn't here the Cheney preamble, but the part of the acceptance speech I heard here in the UK gave me some hope that there will be a change of tone in the second term. (It wouldn't be the first time.) Maybe he was just playing to the gallery, but maybe he really does see that the splitting of the US into two nations has gone too far. Maybe he has even lost some confidence in the wretched neocons around him. I won't hold my breath on that, but it will be interesting to see how the Powellites fare viz a viz the Rumsfeld types in the new line-up.

The biggest worry must stil be what happens to the Supreme Court. If Bush takes his chance to stack it with (for instance) Christian fundamentalists, any prospect of reuniting the nation will have gone out of the window for 10 or 15 years.

Bravo to Kerry for the timing and tone of his concession. I assume Hillary will continue the dynastic trend in presidents next time round, or will Edwards be in the reckoning?

One other thought. Why the hell was it necessary, in a developed nation that has done this sort of thing before, for people to queue 5-8 hours in the rain to cast their votes? I've not seen anything like it since the first post-apartheid elections in South Africa, where they had every excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:57 PM

The World and its people survived Napoleon, the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Huns, Vlad the Impaler, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, and numerous other imperial despots.

They will survive the Bush family and the New World Order too.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:05 PM

Peter K---Good point. Why did they have to line-up (queue) for such time---I think it was not a common thing. Still it should not occur.

       If you read my earlier post---Cheney was truly frightening. No coming together, merely gloating and looking, as I said earlier, like Darth Vader in human face---the snarl seems implanted. So that answers your query.

       To your other thoughts:   Bush understanding runs about as deep as the shore of a river at low tide. As to Powell and others---I am betting Powell is gone---Rumsfeld should be. If Rumsfeld stays then you know that no change is imminent.

       In the end--we should all grieve for the lost souls--US and UK that have been lost in this inane futility to change a culture under the name of democracy that translates to self interest.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:30 PM

I don't know if I would compare Cheney to Darth Vader. Darth ended up saving his son, destroying the Emperor and eliminating the dark side. I can't see Cheney doing anything that good.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM

(Thanks Martin.) ;-)

Fionn, many places have early voting, up to two weeks (and sometimes more) before the election, but not everyone has implemented this yet. I voted early and waited maybe 30 minutes. In Nashville, we had a record number of early voters this year - over a million.

Bill, how are you so sure God doesn't talk to people individually?

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:55 PM

Let's all send out for pizza!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:34 PM

Best pizza place is Pine's in Montreal. Martin, don't even THINK of telling me about some joint in Chicago. Not even a whisper!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:35 PM

Chicago's definitely overrated...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM

Pizza in Montreal or Chicago = Bleckkk. If you want the best, go to Rays Original in NYC. Finest kind.   I know, God spoke to me and said it was so.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:48 PM

Ahhhhh, sorry to break up the pizza party but...

...all the Bush won was the "responsibility" to clean up his own danged mess.

This election was more like yer mom tellin' you that you can't go out and play until you clean up yer danged bedroom.

Now the fun oughtta begin because Bush is thinking he's got to creat a legacy since he has gotten a second term and he is surrounded by, ahhhh, a bunch of crooks who are all on the take. Hmmmmm?

Then Bush looks inside his mind and thinks "I'm screwed!"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:49 PM

Bobert: Get a grip. This thread is about pizza. I LOVE PIZZA.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:51 PM

Ooops. Sorry. It's about politics. BUT, Montreal has politicians and some of them eat pizza. There's the connection, so I stand corrected and retract that ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:52 PM

Not THAT ooops, the OTHER ooops.

Alley Ooops, Ooops . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:02 AM

No Kim, you didn't say anything about whip-cracking; I did. You said "Clint - pulling together is up to the people, not the President."

I was pointing out that the President has to pull too; he is supposed to be on the team. That quote -- which is from Woodward's first book about Bush -- where he says he doesn't have to explain to any one, but people have to explain to him, is the voice of an autocrat. Like Nixon saying "If the president does it, that makes it legal."

And so I used the whip-cracking analogy.

The president is not supposed to get everything his own way. That's why the well-known checks and balances were built into the constitution.

Get rid of the "not" and make it "pulling together is up to the people, AND the President." and you've got what I said.

We are citizens, not subjects. And the President is a Public Servant, not a Lord.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:39 AM

I think that the rednecks of America just voted into power the most ludicrous, ridiculous, laughingstock of a national leader since Idi Amin.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Dewey
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:31 AM

Great Patriots! Great Votes!

Chirac, Arafat, Bin Laden, Micheal Moore:

Go eat your turds!

This president is going to defend THIS country. Without the permission slip or the will of the Corrupted United nations.

I hereby pledge my loyalty to the God Ole U.S.A. as did most of the voting U.S. population.

Bush won because he supports the interests of OUR country.

This IS my country, and MY wartime President, smart enough to defend America, and kiss off the corrupt United Nations and European Union.

And not foolish enough (Like Kerry) to put this nation and the will of those who already hate us (and wish us nothing but harm) in power with the pre-requisite of a global test to defend our soveignty.

Liberals Everywhere: Stop wearing those black arm bands! You'll cut off you all of your vitals and your brains will stop working for you. Opps! perhaps collectively, that has already happened!


Dewey

P.S. this was not a letter of peace (admittedly) but a had a heck of a lot of fun writing it! Plus all you commy-liberals, who talk about peace are in general the most intolerant of the intolerant when it comes to political discourse.

And are also (NAME CALLING PERMITTED)the most militant con-descending, know it all, globalistic elitest that have even walked this planet.

OOH! THE TRUTH HURTS DOESN'T IT! The REAL WISDOM IS THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE AND THEY SPOKE (COMPLETELY AND INDEPENDANTLY ON ELECTION DAY)

Dewey

(who says let the sparks fly, a conservative should be able to post and name call, his fair share too)

the rest of you jerky know it alls, do it ALL THE TIME, And now you whine because your Global Savior SCARY KERRY (with his all knowing wisdom and intelligents) was not accepted by the American electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:25 AM

I think the American electorate is generally right; that's why I believe in democracy.

But only God is perfect, and every once in a while we elect a Nixon, or a Warren Harding. We do straughten out, though, and I trust we will again.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 03:51 AM

Maybe this just goes to show the rest of the world that democracy aint all its chalked up to be.

I mean is it really a good idea for half the people to be enslaved by the ignorance of the other half?

d

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 03:56 AM

"I mean is it really a good idea for half the people to be enslaved by the ignorance of the other half?"

That is the most sane, most honest thing I have heard in this whole thread, and sadly, truth be told (for real this time), THAT is the American way...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Arnie
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:51 AM

Well, from a UK perspective, this has made Blair a very relieved man indeed. He had a few meetings with Kerry just to hedge his bets, but he's got too much invested in Iraq to see Bush kicked out. Our elections are not until next Spring but the opposition are a lot weaker than the Democrats - the Tories spent 18yrs destroying this country and are now trying to convince us that they should be in charge again. The Liberal Democrats are too small a party to make any real difference. The only good thing about the US election being over is that we in the UK will no longer be bombarded with BBC round-the-clock coverage - they actually sent almost 200 journalists to the US - all at licence-payers expense (we have no choice in the UK - if you own a TV set you are obliged by law to pay £121 p.a. to the BBC whether you watch their channels or not). Why - when we could simply watch the results on CNN??

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,BlueJay
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:39 AM

Go ahead and gloat, DEWEY. But your line of BS, (propagated by the Bush administration), is exactly why the rest of the world hates us right now.

Don't get too comfortable in your belligerance. You'd best keep in mind that 48% of the American voters DO NOT share your belief that Bush is the goddam messiah. In fact, we feel he's an idiot. He has not defended this country, as you claim, but instead done irreparable harm to our cause. It's beyond me why you think he's done anything good at all.

And learn how to spell. BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Limey Bastard
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 07:01 AM

What is America's fascination with "Commies"? As well as the fact that god (if he exists) does not owe allegience to any one country, especially to a bumbling chimpanzee. Anyone see 9/11, the bit were that marine is bragging about having music piped into his helmet while fighting. What the HELL!!! If only they played "War, what is if good for, absolutley fuck all" then sense might reign. Good film though if a little one sided.

The bottom line being, don't blame the bush, he's just an idiot, it's those shady bastards behind that are pulling the strings.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Stu
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

The American (or about 50% of the population - half seem OK) fascination with commies, islamic fundamentalists, ruskkies, Frenchmen and just about everyone else in the world, is due to the fact they constantly need an external threat to make them feel better, to pull together as a nation.

They have no common desire to make either themselves happy or care if their actions make other peoples lives a misery (witness the US contempt for Kyoto, the general befuddlement on everyone else's view of the Iraq war etc).

That said, I believe in the inherent goodness of people, and I think the 52% of Americans who have just elected Monkey Boy again have been frightened by years of neo-con mythologising about threats that largely do not exist.

When I was in New York, I found the people to be friendly, warm and well-informed - they made us feel very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:43 AM

I would be awfully grateful if this 48% would pull together with the 51% and go and bomb the French for me please, never liked them.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:58 AM

Okay, Clint, fair enough. That is true. It seems to me, though, that too many people do think it's up to the President to do everything, thus absolving everyone else from any personal responsibility. So, yes, we should all be on the team.

Now then... as far as half of the country being enslaved by the ignorance of the other half... well, isn't that sort of the way it has to be in a voting situation? The person who wins has to get most of the votes, which would be at least half, if two people are running. Side A and Side B are each nearly always going to think the other is ignorant. That's why they're on opposing sides.

Then what if there's a Side C, and the votes break down 3 ways? Let's say Side A gets 40%, B gets 35, and C gets 25. That would mean that 60% of the people would be subject to the decision of the other 40%. Is that any better?

Everybody can't have it THEIR way. That's why we vote. There's nothing that says we have to like the results. OVER HALF of registered voters chose their candidate. That's how the system is supposed to work. If you don't like the way the system works, then devise a plan to change it.

Personally, I think it's good to know that we're pretty much half-and-half in this country, because that means we're closer to having a balance.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:39 PM

Way to say it Kim C.

Unlike the bizzaro who above said:

"Maybe this just goes to show the rest of the world that democracy aint all its chalked up to be.

I mean is it really a good idea for half the people to be enslaved by the ignorance of the other half?"

This rates as one of the most moronic things I have ever read here.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

"Now then... as far as half of the country being enslaved by the ignorance of the other half... well, isn't that sort of the way it has to be in a voting situation? "

No, it ain't. We used to have a system of "checks and balances" and a Bill of Rights to protect minorities and keep them from being enslaved by the majority.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM

All right then, explain to me how that's supposed to work, and how someone is supposed to win an election. You can't win an election unless the majority votes for you. If you have 10 people on a committee, and 6 people vote for Proposition A, and 4 people don't, the majority wins. Or is that not how we do it anymore? I don't believe the Bill of Rights has much to do with how many people vote for which candidate.

And one more thing, folks... all these comments about ignorance don't do much to further the cause of that unity everyone says they want so badly.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 03:27 PM

They don't want it Kim C.

everyone got to vote. They are just crybabies because their saviour lost.

They are in the minority and always will be because they just plain hate anything that looks like mainstream America.

In a way, they aren't that different from certain terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

Kim C:---He told me so--He doesn't (talking to folks individually).

Actually I think there is a Bluegrass song (or perhaps Gospel) that has that line in it---"I know because he told me."   Then again, there is the great line in another song---it may be Rev. Billy C Wirtz---"Jesus loves me, but he sure don't like you."   Sounds like something W might hum in the shower.

Seriously though---heard his press conference today. One commentator remarked later that the most important thing about it was that he actually had one.   I think he laid it all out in the press conference--"...I have some political capitol now--and I am going to spend it...".   Sounds a little threatening---somewhat like his other thought having to do with coming together for the good of the nation provided people agree with his aims. So---Great Communicator--No. Great Compromisor---Hmmmm, doubt that.   So---Great what---I have a few thoughts.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Nice humming, bill H.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:26 PM

If only the bulk of people who showerd up to vote their conscience had actually had a conscience

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM

What's the point in praying, then, if God doesn't answer?

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:39 PM

Something to do?

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:34 PM

Kim: "I don't believe the Bill of Rights has much to do with how many people vote for which candidate."

It doesn't.

It has something to do with how the winners treat the losers, that is, by NOT enslaving them, as you said in your 9:58 post--" as far as half of the country being enslaved by the ignorance of the other half... well, isn't that sort of the way it has to be in a voting situation?"

In America it is not supposed to be winner take all. If it were the victors would become the only party -- until the next coup.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM

And here I thought I was the Bill of Rights. Fame is so fleeting.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

I mean is it really a good idea for half the people to be enslaved by the ignorance of the other half?"

This rates as one of the most moronic things I have ever read here.

Indeed it is not moronic. It represents one of the main problems with America -- the tyranny of the majority, as de Tocqueville predicted in the 18th century.

The majority always getting its way leads to LCD -- lowest common denominator -- in politics, religion, education, entertainment, and all aspects of a culture. It explains a lot of things such as American sitcoms, pop music, and movies that rely on big noises and special effects rather than intelligent ideas.

It also explains rednecks electing a president who is a clown a man with the sophistication of a booger joke. I am very glad I am not an American -- I would flinch with embarrassment at the thought of George W. Bush meeting any other head of state in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM

You don't have to be the the Bill of Rights as long as you're the right Bill.

clint

--That almost sounds as if it meant something

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:46 PM

I would flinch with embarrassment at the thought of George W. Bush meeting any other head of state in the world.


Like Canadians felt when Jean Chretien was our PM.
But at least he was entertaining. I miss him already.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 11:45 PM

Oh thank heaven, finally an explanation for what should have been impossible. Of course (*coughcough*) I don't believe for a moment that there is any actual correlation here (*cough*) -- it's all just sheer coincidence. The data are real, however.

Election 2004 explained

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

"everyone got to vote. They are just crybabies because their saviour lost."

Crap! The election was stolen by black boxes, corporate crime and suppression of democracy by reactionary bullies.

Bush has really lost.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:42 PM

So if we don't elect our officials by a majority vote, how are we supposed to do it?

I think I'm missing something here.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Andover Agen
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:03 PM

From a distribution list:

_________________________________________________________________________

What are people's thoughts on this?

A friend of mine got off the phone with the office of the Ohio
Secretary of State and was told the following:

- Kerry's concession has no legal bearing on who wins the election.

- Ohio has been using and counting provisional ballots the exact same
way for the past 10 elections.

- Ohio and Federal law dictate that the state will wait 10 days and
then begin counting the provisional
ballots.

- All valid provisional ballots will be counted.

- The winner of the state of Ohio shall not be considered official
until such time as all provisional ballots have been counted.

- If Kerry is found to win Ohio, regardless of his public concession,
he will win the election.

The woman she spoke with asked that people post this information far
and wide because, for whatever reason, the media aren't reporting it.

There remain a couple of questions though. As of yesterday, Secretary
of State Blackwell said there were about 175,000 provisional ballots,
but that didn't include about 10 counties that hadn't turned theirs in
yet. Did those counties include huge democratic stronghold and highly
populated Cuyahuga county, that contains Cleveland?


J. Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State
180 E. Broad St. 16th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215

General Telephone Number (Toll Free): 1-877-767-6446
General Telephone Number (Local): 1-614- 466-2655

Elections questions or comments:
email: [e-mail]
call: 614-466-2585

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Wilhelmina
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM

"Today, Doctors Without Borders announced
that it is leaving Iraq. In March of 2003, Iraq had 150 international
relief organizations working inside its borders. Today it has less than
50. The country is devolving into madness. Tens of thousands of Iraqis
have died. Thousands more are wounded. American casualties exceed
10,000.

"The only future for Iraq -- which is growing faster than any
OPEC country except Nigeria -- is as an oil colony of the West. To feed
its people, educate them and house them, it must open its oil wells
full blast and sell as much oil as it can to the world market. Can it
do that without civil war? It looks doubtful. If it can avoid war, will
there be enough money to rebuild a country devastated by both Saddam
and then the Pentagon? Again, it looks doubtful.

Like his fellow Texan, Lyndon Johnson, our just-re-elected president
deceived America into waging an immoral war that it cannot win. Bush
has locked us into a religious war with the Muslim world that will last
decades. Today, we are stuck in Iraq. We cannot leave and we cannot
stay. And every week American soldiers stay in Baghdad costs us $1
billion.

Yes, Bush won. America, however, lost. And thousands more people will
die because Bush and the neocons lied to the American people. Don't
expect me to change my position on that.

Sincerely,
Robert Bryce
Austin, TX"

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bert
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:01 PM

OK Martin "Bush Wins" But now PROVE IT!