Fiddle & Violin Methods

Subject: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Scintilla
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:59 AM

Hi :)

A few questions for you - I'd be really interested to hear your views.

If you wanted to learn to play an instrument and your main interest was folk, would you want to learn the classical disciplines as a basis for your playing? I'm thinking in the fiddle/violin context but it's applicable to all instruments. Would you expect your teacher to correct you if you wanted to, say, hold the bow in the 'wrong' way? How important do you think it is to play an instrument in the 'correct' way?

My reason for asking is I'm doing a music teaching course and need help arguing my case. I was taught classically and was pretty rubbish at it.. then I discovered folk and I loved it - suddenly nobody told me I was 'doing things wrong' any more.

As a player I am convinced that my lack of classical skills in no way hinders my playing, in fact I think it liberates it now I've stopped worrying about it. But, as a teacher, surely I have a responsibility to all my students to teach the 'correct' way? But if a student is perfectly happy and comfortable doing it their way is it my right to try and correct it?

Look forward to hearng what you have to say :)

Sx

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Jess A
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:33 AM

I'd say it kind of depends on what your student is wanting to achieve with it - if they want to play classically (e.g. in orchestras etc) , or study music academically, or take grade exams (not sure where you are but here in the uk lots of people take grade exams as part of the learning process) then I guess they would need to learn the 'standard' classical ways of doing things simply because if they don't other people will tell them they're doing it wrong and discriminate against them because of it, even if they/you/I don't believe in that kind of thing.

...but, if they are wanting to learn simply for the joy of playing, then you might well want to be more flexible. I guess what is important is to take a look at the limitations of playing a particular way (whether that is the 'standard' way or not) and help your student be aware of these for themselves. For example, certain ways of holding the bow may reduce the flexibility in the wrist which might limit what you could do with it a bit further down the road, even if it doesn't seem to make any difference at whatever stage of development somebody is at.

I can only speak from my own experience but I learned classically and was taught to hold the bow at the frog, and now having not had a lesson for well over 10 years and having done a lot of folky playing in the interim, I now hold the bow about half way down at the point where it balances, which I like for the control it gives me from a rhythmic point of view. BUT I'm not sure I'd teach somebody to hold the bow there from the outset because it does limit what I can do in terms of long bow strokes... which I know I can do if I need to because I learned the other way first but if I'd learnt 'my' way all along I might not be able to switch.

I'd hope that anybody having lessons would eventually gain the confidence to develop a style of their own, with the support of their teacher. But to do that it would probably be helpful to know about all the different options, and to start at a point that doesn't limit anything too much.

sorry, that was really long and waffly wasn't it? :)

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Scintilla
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:54 AM

Thanks Jess, some very good points, and not at all waffly!!!

I think if it were totally my decision then I would consult the student and ask what they want to get out of it, and explain WHY things are done in a certain way ie to help posture etc. I'd then let them make an informed decision about how they wish to play. That's adults obviously, children I would probably teach the classical way as I do think it has a lot of merits.

The Associated Board of the Royal School of Music (who I am doing the course with) are very much of the opinion that I should teach the classical methods first. Which I do agree with to a certain extent, especially when teaching children. But.... when they come to do their observations of my lessons they are very likely to meet a chap holding his bow half way up, and his fiddle half way down his arm, who is quite happy playing like that and I wouldn't dream of asking him to do it another way.

I guess what I am saying is that I am happy with my teaching philosophy and methods, even though it may not conform to an official body's recognised way of doing things. I better get ready for my fail!

I would be interested to hear people's experiences of being taught either very well or very badly, and whether they learnt classically or folkilily (I just made that word up :D)

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:44 AM

That Devil Paganini may be partly responsible for the necessity for Classical Violinists to hold the instrument in certain ways - he considerably upgraded the skill levels expected.

Many other ways of holding the violin/fiddle/viedle have been used throughout history - upright on the lap, resting on the arm, etc.

What these have in common relative to the 'standard Classical position' are less capability to get more out of the instrument, in terms of range of bow stroke techniques, the range of 'positions' you can reach easily, how rapidly you can play passages, tone production, etc.

A String Instrument Historian would be able to give you more detail.

If you want ot play only a very limited style of music on any instrument, then who cares how you hold it?

'Rules are for blind obedience by Fools & Children and merely guidance for the Wise & Experienced'.

So if you don't at least start off 'the right way' you will find it difficult to improve after a while - just ask any Piano Accordion player who started off 'the easy way' of playing the Stradella Bass...

Robin

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: John Routledge
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:07 AM

Spot on Robin.

Seven sentences says it all. Much more readable than the ten pages I would need. :0)

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:46 PM

Scintilla,

Check out
Twelve questions violinists ask about fiddling
at
http://www.dhebert.com/publications/fiddleFAQ.html

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

If your desire is to play folk music do it by ear and hold the bow as it is most natural to you.
If you want to play classical or in an orchestra then there are very stricct rules, but if not toss the rules aside.
Nothing can strip the "life" out of a good fiddle tune as quick as an attempt to play it by note. ( I.E. directly from the music sheet) The timing and feeling of the performer are an integral part of folk music and this will be lost.
Notes are great for learning a tune but after that a good fiddler will burn the sheets and play the tune from memory. If your teacher objects perhaps you have the wrong teacher.
The above is only my subjective opinion!
               Sandy

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Grab
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 06:19 PM

I know a guy who's learning fiddle. His main problem is bowing - he can't get the hang of moving the bow in a straight line perpendicular to the strings. Personally I think his teacher isn't hammering on that as much as they should be. So to answer that question: the teacher shouldn't care if the student prefers to play a different way, but they *should* be digging their heels right in if the student's technique is incorrect for how they're choosing to play.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: GUEST,SmokinBill
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:40 AM

I can recommend "The American Fiddle Method", a new series by Brian Wicklund. It's a great introduction to folk/trad fiddling, and it starts out with well-known tunes and advances quickly. Not all the tunes he teaches are American. For example, one of the beginning tunes is the Arran Boat Song. I started playing fiddle with this method (it's a Book-and-CD series with two volumes, plus an optional DVD) only this summer, and I'm already playing dozens of tunes and even writing some of my own.

[e-mail]

PS you can hear me playing one of the tunes from the series, Angelina Baker, on my Web site:

Smokin' Bill's audio page

Happy fiddling!

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:40 AM

I learned classical style but then switched to folk after a ten year gap. However, I also didn't use perfect technique ie hold the bow halfway up because the balance feels better to me when getting rhythm. I joke that I could offer workshops for fiddlers on how to get a good sound using any method you like but the 'right' one. My message is use whatever technique works best but try a few.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Scintilla
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:37 AM

Cheers guys, all interesting stuff. Thanks for the comments and the links. It's all good to throw into the mixing pot for this course I'm on. I guess ultimately it's the ABRSM's course so I had just better learn things their way. Oooh I gotta lotta work to do.. eek!

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:40 AM

I was fortunate enough to have a great teacher who taught only fiddle, but was very keen on Kato Havas' methods, which is all about how you feel when playing, and how to minimise tension and maximise balance (http://www.katohavas.com/). Havas' approach was applied to classical music, but works for *anything* (instrument or genre) really. Unfortunately for me (but great for her), my fiddle teacher moved to Ireland in the summer, so I have a bit of a trek for lessons.

Subject: RE: Fiddle & Violin Methods
From: Pauline L
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:00 AM

Yes, there really are good reasons for holding the violin and bow the "correct" way. The purpose is to get a good quality of sound without trying to work against your own body. I make a point of telling my students why they should position their shoulders, chin, writsts, fingers the "correct" way. For example, it's easier to get a good tone when you place the bow midway between the bridge and fingerboard, with all hairs touching the string, and move the bow parallel to the bridge. It's easier to move the bow this way if you hold your violin in a plane roughly parallel to the floor. If you grip the bow tightly, like a vise, you'll lose control and get a scratchy sound. If you hold the fingers of your left hand over the strings, it will be easier to play the notes in tune. However, if someone sounds good but doesn't look like the photos at the beginning of the Suzuki book, there is probably no reason to change.

One of my current students started teaching himself fiddle. He grew up listening to his family members playing fiddle tunes. After playing for a few months, his mother told him to take some lessons. :-) When he started taking lessons from me, his playing deteriorated for a short time while he learned to realign his body. Now he sounds great, even to his mother. He is very talented, and I'm so glad I've been able to help him make the most of his innate musicianship.