When England originally conquered Ireland

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

Just relatively rare. Records from 1876 show that only one person bearing my surname (I'm a Catholic, of sorts!), the third most common in Donegal, owned any land in all Donegal, and that just 19 acres. The list doesn't give the sect of owners but most of the names are quite obviously of English and Scottish origin, certainly not Irish, and therefore most likely, Protestant.

The Land League changed everything (sorry Popp., I hadn't noticed that you had already mentioned the Land League). By 1899, my grandfather had been able to buy 17 acres, paid in cash, with money earned working in Scotland, and he just 18 years old. (They don't make em like that any more - nowadays they're going off on gap years at that age!).

Ironically, Davitt's first landlord target was a Catholic priest, Canon Burke. He was forced to reduce rents by 25%. But that was rare.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

Thanks, Big Tim.

I know a bit about the Land League -- my paternal grandmother (who died in 1925, when my father was only 8) was active enough in the Ladies' Land League to merit prominent obituaries in a couple of Irish-American newspapers. She must have been quite young at the time. I learned more recently that my great-grandmother -- her mother-in-law-to-be -- was also quite prominent in the same movement. In fact, her role was important enough that an historical article about her was published in the local county-wide newspaper there in Mayo within the last year or so.

I have no idea what the whole story might be, but it seems that my grandparents may have met through the Land League. My grandmother was not a local hometown girl, but had come from somewhere in Clare to got involved in the Mayo land war.

I'm still wondering, though, about that landlord being Catholic. I know that was not the usual situation, but don't know whether it was completely unheard of, or just relatively rare.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:46 PM

Basically Popp. the land was bought by the tenants through "cheap", low interest, (British) government loans. This was what was called the Land War, 1879 -1906, mainly bloodless, tho some protests and problems continued into the 1920s. Various Land Acts were introduced between 1881 and 1906, progressively shifting the balance. Most credit goes to Michael Davitt who founded the Land League, a pressure group, in Mayo in 1879. Davitt was an old Fenian but by this time anti-violence. His own family had been evicted in 1850 in Mayo. The landlords got compensated but ownership of the land was transferred to the former tenants.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM

On the subject of bosses and slave-drivers: I've been told that my family's long-time landlords, owner of the farm where they lived as tenants for generations, were an exception to the general rule insofar as they were a *Catholic* family of aristocrats, the Mores. This was in East Mayo, in the Barony of Costello, which included part of Co. Roscommon as well.

I'm not sure how Catholics could have been landowners, whether the situation dated back any further than O'Connell and Emancipation, or whether the landlord Mores were English Catholics or Irish. However, word-of-mouth family tradition has it that this landlord at least refrained from evicting any families during the Famine.

My folks were not totally complacent and complaint tenants however, regardless of their recognition that their own landlord might not have been as bad as most others. Several family members were deeply involved in the work of Michael Davitt and the Land League back in the 1880s.

That family farm, by the way, is currently occupied -- and owned -- by my 70+-year-old second cousin. His father's status changed from tenant to landowner, I assume, sometime in the 1920's, with the coking of independence. I'd like to know and understand more of how that transfer of real estate occurred -- the same type of thing must have happened all over Ireland.

All three of that cousin's kids have moved away, incidentally, and none have any interest in taking over the farm. I have to wonder what'll happen next.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Tim, I have worked for some slave-drivers in Ireland and England, and James Connelly was around when ALL bosses everywhere exploited their workers to the full, although not making excuses for to-days extortionists [business men], times have changed.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:31 AM

Don't two Irish guys own Manchester United as well!

But remember, "An English boss is a monster, an Irish one's even worse" - James Connolly.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Fiolar
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:41 AM

I had to grin when I read the following in Sunday's Observer newspaper. Looks like we are finally getting our own back and in a few years the whole of England will have been taken over:
"Irish investors carve up prime cuts of London." (here are some extracts from the article)
....Irish investors have bought tracts of land in the Thames Gateway region east of London.
....The Irish are in London stonger than ever but they are looking at markets not just in London but other major cities.
....The Irish have been buying in London for the last four years....
.....Irish investor Alfie Buller also owns a vast tract of land close to Corby, Northamptonshire.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM

Where would one find the tune to Irish Ways and Laws?
I'd love to learn it.

Dave O'Esterreich   (joke)

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Hrothgar
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:28 AM

A century before the English/British/Normans invaded Ireand with the support of the Pope because the Irish church was getting too independent, the Nornabs invaded England with papal support because Rome felt the English church was getting too independent ...

Subject: Lyr Add: IRISH WAYS AND IRISH LAWS
From: Tansy
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:51 PM

Darnit..the links didn't take...

Here's a copy of the Lyrics...taken from that link in the old thread.....


IRISH WAYS AND IRISH LAWS


    A                      G
    Once upon a time there was
                         A
    Irish ways and Irish laws,
    C                A
    Villages of Irish blood
    C                G
    Waking in the morning,
    A                C
    Waking in the morning.

Then the Vikings came around,
Turned us up and turned us down,
Started building boats and towns.
They tried to change our living,
They tried to change our living.

Cromwell and his soldiers came,
Started centuries of shame,
But they could not make us turn.
We are a river flowing,
We're a river flowing.

Again, again the soldiers came,
Burnt our houses, stole our grain,
Shot the farmers in their fields,
Working for a living,
Working for a living.

Eight hundred years we have been down.
The secret of the water sound
Has kept the spirit of the man
Above the pain descending,
Above the pain descending.

Today the struggle carries on,
I wonder will I live so long
To see the gates being opened up
To a people and their freedom,
A people and their freedom.

************************************

This is a great song..usually brings the house down. Granted, it is sober and better if sung unaccompanied (without clueless Bodhran players from John's Pub sessions...hehe..I just read the Annoying Bodhran thread) but it's truly worth the effort.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Tansy
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:35 PM

Uncle Dave....Of course you can really send them running for some Prozac by singing all 24 verses of "Skibereen" but that might clear the auditorium!

I stand by original sugestion of adding "Irish Ways & Irish Laws" to your set..It's modern, it sums everything up and, it's a very traditional sounding tune..can be sung unaccompanied to boot.

Below is an excellent reference post from the Mudcat Archives..gives you all the info you could want on the song, which is not perofrmed nearly enough in my opinion.

**********************

Subject: RE: Help: Irish Ways and Irish Laws
From: Malcolm Douglas - PM
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 06:10 AM

See also these previous discussions (no particular order):

Irish Ways and Irish Laws Lyric with suggested chords, and a quote from Christy Moore on how he learned the song (same as in Catspaw's first link).
Lyr Add: IRISH WAYS & IRISH LAWS Lyrics again.
Irish ways and Irish laws Lyrics again.
Irish Ways and Irish Laws Brief discussion of the tune.
Lyr Req: Irish ways and Irish Laws Another request, answered with two links.
Lyr Add: IRISH WAYS AND IRISH LAWS Lyric yet again.

Although the text has been posted here at least five times, Gibbs hasn't always been mentioned, and very little information about him has emerged.

*********************************************************************

Hmmm..can't tell if the links are gonna come through or not.... I'll have to post and see.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 07:38 PM

I think the most poignant Famine song of all id Na Prátaí Dubha composed by Máire Ní Dhroma of Ring, Co Waterford.

If you want a good strong, expressing the utter depression of defeated rebels and their spirit to rise up again, you won't get better than the traditional Irish version of Sliabh na mBan written after the disaster of 1798.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: nutty
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:35 PM

With over 700 years of conflict, this time line puts things in perspective.

Irish Timeline

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:04 PM

I'm curious about The Praties They are Small. The earliest example I've seen is American (1844; see past threads on the song and sheet music at Levy) and refers to "potatoes ... over there". It isn't clear in that version that there's any reference intended to Ireland, though of course there may have been.

Forms of that song turn up a fair bit in oral currency in the US (Hard Times in Kansas and the like) but the earliest reference I've seen to the "praties" form is from the 1930s, when it was referred to as "a famine song", though that may just have been an assumption. There must be earlier references; can anyone come up with any? Bronson assumed that the American forms were parodies of the Irish song, but were they?

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:03 PM

Mick, hi, Connolly was with the Citizen Army, not the Irish Volunteers. He fought bravely in the Rising and died in it, but he had little to do with it's organisation, or the fact that it happened. Tom Clarke, old Fenian, IRB senior figure, was the main man. Fifteen years in a hell hole Victorian prison. Read his memoirs. His time will come.

Re, "Praties They Are Small", wasn't this written as an anti-Famine song, a sick joke about the poverty-stricken Irish, "they eat them, skin and all [inferior bastards]". It's evolved into a genuine Famine song, Mary O'Hara wouldn't have recorded it otherwise, but if I were singing it, I'd mention this, just in case there's a Mudcatter in the audience.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM

Oh. And if the "blue-blooded-Brit" comment is based on my use of the word "conquered", I admitted yesterday at 9:55 a.m. that it was a wrong word, and suggested other words I should have used, namely invasion and occupation, which are factual and in no way either derogatory to the Irish or pro-Sassenach.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

GUEST (or one of them) said:

What evidence can you garner that the thread originator "Uncle Dave O" is an American? He appears a blue-blooded-Brit through and thru.

What evidence can you garner that I am "a blue-blooded-Brit through and thru"?

I was born in Minnesota of all-German stock, and have lived in Indiana for about 44 of my 74 years. I'm certainly not blue-blooded anything. I've never been in either the UK or Ireland. If I were in position to do international travel to one of those places, it would be Ireland.

I believe that if I were indeed "a blue-Blooded-Brit" I would hardly be interested in Irish revolutionary songs.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,Eoin O'Buadhaigh
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:50 AM

Jeezas an' begora! I can't remember having read a more informative thread in me life, there are some very impressive minds out there!!!
keep it goin' I'm enjoyin' this.
   cheers Eoin

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:02 AM

Great stuff in this thread.

Big Tim, it may have been the IRB driving it, but if Connolly and his Irish Citizens Army hadn't joined in, there is a pretty good argument that the Rising would never have happened.

For those not acquainted with this, Connolly was a leader in another group called the Irish Volunteers. He fell out of favor with, and ceased to support it. This was due to most of the volunteers supporting John Redmond's call for a suspension of the Home Rule Act during WW1. Ultimately, after the split, most of these Irish Volunteers ended up with the IRB. But some 11,000 of them, the most radical of the lot, followed Connolly who formed the Irish Citizens Army. Connolly was never one for subtlety, and he took to parading them around in public. At the same time the IRB was planning the Rising and was afraid that Connolly's public shows would draw unwanted attention. The IRB also had problems with having enough committed vol's. It was the bringing of Connolly into the mix which provided the last link needed to allow the Rising to go forward.

Mick

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Tansy
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:35 AM

Jtt - I didn't mean to make this thread all political by bringing up "Irish Ways & Irish Laws", really I didn't! The major emmigration in my own family from Ireland to NYC was a result of the 1916 actions and ensuing resitance, so I certainly grew up being fed the party line about the Hunger, The Emergency Men, Home-Rule and Michael Collins. As he has gotten older, my father has become hopelessly enamoured of staunch Republican songs (not American Republicans folks....that'd be even worse).

I was merely trying to point out that a Singer who feels the need to give background on some of his rebellion songs can save a great deal of breath by just adding "Irish Ways and Irish Laws" to his set and gain a song to replace a lecture. Audiences often prefer slightly political songs to political or historical rhetoric. One runs the risk of being labelled an IRA Apologist if one goes on too much by way of explanations.

Incidentally, I was raised to believe it is brazenly impolite to bring up The Hunger outside of the family except in passing reference. I'd never choose to go on about it during a performance. What an unremitting downer that would be! Of course, I was raised in America, so our attitudes and superstitions are our own.

However, I found your reference to "Famine Food" amusing...we have no such stigmas in my family, perhaps because my Mum's family is from a dirt-poor Iron Mining town in way upstate New York and they have their own "Famine Foods" there which are still eaten....sour green crab apples with salt, wild blueberries which aren't technically blueberries but I don't know what else to call 'em, wild lettuce, Fiddleheads, wild rosehips, many strange nuts I don't know the name of and any fish that swims in the Oswegotchie river - mostly Bass. No good seaweed though...too far inland. I married an American who grew up solid middle class and when he got his first taste of "Famine foods", he loved them and asks for them often. Silly man.

MY Mum and Father recently moved back to her hometown to be nearer her familyand she was immediately happy to be reunited with some of those odd foods!

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:27 AM

Obviously you'll want Amhráin na bhFiann (Song of the Fianna, literally; in English The Soldiers' Song), which is the national anthem. It is always sung in Irish, though it was written in English (by Peadar Kearney, whose nephew, Brendan Behan, also wrote good songs such as The Oul' Triangle, about the life of those interned in Mountjoy Gaol, and whose ancestors were involved in the 1798 Rising). This was sung in the GPO in 1916, though the real anthem of that Rising was probably Step Together.

I assume that you probably want to steer clear of the Civil War - songs from that can still arouse bitterness, as every family will have been on the Treaty side or the side of the Republic.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Fiolar
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 07:00 AM

"Roddy McCorley" (the ballad) was written about 1902 by Ethna Carbery and not in 1927 as mentioned above. Another ballad which may be of interest is "The Lonely Banna Strand" which tells the story of Roger Casement.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:28 AM

If you want a good Famine song, the American emigration song "Oh the praties they are small" is chilling but wonderful. (By the way, the reason that the Famine - An Gorta Mór, or the Great Hunger, as it's called in Irish - is such an essential piece of knowledge is that the British administration of the time was a kind of proto-Thatcherite government whose policy of "laissez-faire" was to allow the "indolent" Irish to starve, so that only the strong would survive.

The famine was caused by a combination of potato blight and Colorado beetle (a potato parasite then, and now, unknown in Ireland). It devastated Ireland because (a) the tenant farms had been subdivided over and over again until they were tiny; and (b) the farmers grew crops and raised animals to sell for the rent, and themselves lived almost completely on potatoes and buttermilk (they sold the butter; the buttermilk was the curds left after churning).

I was recently talking to a friend and said that I rather liked both cooked nettles and various forms of seaweed - and mushrooms - even though these were distrusted in my childhood as "Famine food". He said "When I was going to school they used to show us a ditch and say 'That was where the people died in the Famine eating nettles' - is it any wonder we're screwed up!"

When you realise that the famine years of the 1840s were as close to 1916 as the Korean War is to us today, it makes it clear the living impact it had; when Queen Victoria visited Ireland, she was greeted with sybaritic gratitude by the establishment, but nationalists called her the Famine Queen; at one stage during the famine an Indian maharajah (king) had wanted to donate money, but since the English queen would have been expected to match his donation, he was persuaded to cut the amount by half! (By the way, the Choctaw Indians gave money that saved many lives - a gift for which they are annually thanked in Ireland.)

You probably don't want anything in Irish, but if you do, "Na Conneries", a song that puts a curse on the family who have informed on the eponymous Connery family resulting in their transportation to the deathly penal colonies of New South Wales is something that shouldn't be left out.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Tansy
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 05:38 AM

If you want a great song to add to your little Irish history Repertoire, many audiences respond very well to "Irish Ways and Irish laws" which deatils the 800 years of oppression from start to present.. it's sort of an Irish "Blowin' In The wind" but more militant.... could it be anything less and still be Irish, I wonder?

Laoise

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:38 AM

One important subject that I haven't seen mentioned is the Great Famine of the 1840s.

The Famine was politically important, one million deaths always are. It embittered many Irish people, hardened attitudes and influenced actions, as did the consequent evictions and mass emigrations. Between 1841 and 1900, 3,611,385 Irish citizens emigrated to the US (Those are official American figures). The population of Ireland was halved. It may seem long ago, but the folk memory lingers: my greatgrandparents, Mickey and Bridget, experienced it in the hills of Inishowen. I was raised, on a small farm, on stories about the Land War (1880s). The song "Skibbereen" touches on all of these topics.

The Famine influenced the Young Ireland revolt of 1848. Most of the leaders were then exiled, many ended up in the US, where they, and their sons, graduated into the Fenians (Irish Republican Brotherhood),formed in 1858.

It was the IRB that drove the 1916 Rebellion.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:53 PM

If we drink "StrongBow" in a pub which side are we supporting?

..1. UK

..2. French

..3. IRA

..4. American Brewerie's Conglomerate

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:47 PM

What evidence can you garner that the thread originator "Uncle Dave O" is an American? He appears a blue-blooded-Brit through and thru.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:03 PM

The original Fenians were the Fianna, a band of soldiers and hunters whose legends are central to Irish mythology. The Fenian Cycle of stories (Na Fiannaíochta) contain the stories of Fionn Mac Cumhaill (Finn MacCool in English) and his ... well, I can't say "followers", because the central tenet of the Fianna was "Cothram na Féinne", or "the Equality of the Fianna" (a phrase that still means "equal rights" or "fair play" in Irish).

The stories of Fionn and his son Oisín and grandson Oscar, and such members of the Fianna as Goll Mac Morna, Diarmuid of the Love-Spot and Conan Maol, and lovers such as Sadhbh, are quite like the Japanese folktales.

You're probably familiar with the sci-fi-like story of Oisín being seduced off to Tír na nÓg (or, properly, Tír na hÓige), the Land of the Ever-Young, by Niamh Cínn-Óir, Niamh of the Golden Head, who takes him up on her white horse and rides across the ocean; when he becomes lonely for Ireland and the Fianna and the people of that country fail to persuade him to stay, he rides home, warned not to let his foot touch the soil of Ireland.

He roams Ireland in search of the Fianna (another phrase used in Irish is "Oisín i ndhiadh na Féinne - Oisín [come] after the Fianna). When his horse's girth breaks as he leans down to help a band of puny men to shift a huge rock out of place, he crashes to the ground, and turns instantly into a frail, 300-year-old man.

The Fiannaíochta are deep in the heart of Irish people; less so now than before the language was so endangered as it is now, because these stories had been told word-for-word in a continuing oral tradition for probably thousands of years while Irish was in daily use - but still central to how Irish people feel about themselves and their land.

The watchword of the Fianna was "Gloinne in ár gcroí, neart in ár ngéag, agus beart de réir ár mbriathar" - a light of gladness in our hearts, strength in our limbs, and our deed according to our word.

More than you wanted to know?

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:58 PM

As an "American", and a citizen of the imperialist nation currently the most hated in the world, you should bear in mind that the person who used the ill-judged term "conquer" in the title of this ill-judged thread is also an American. Keep the bitching and the racism (and the wanking, on which you seem to be an expert) to yourself. You might also, as Tim suggested, read a good history book; by which I mean one which is not American. You might find the truth rather disappointing.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:43 PM

I am an American.

But it is a well known, a publicly acknowledgable FACT in our history books, that the English NEVER conquered Ireland....nor Wales either. Whatever, the Brits laid hand to ... they quickly lost ... like a public-school-wanking-game.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:04 PM

My Pocket Oxford dictionary gives the derivation from 'fene'with a /accent over the first e, an ancient Irish race.

I would have thought it was the same derivation as the name Fenns, for the marshy land in the East of England, and fells in the North, where a careless wander from the path by a solitary traveller has enriched the life of a whole watery population of sphagnum moss.

Anne

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:34 PM

One more question and (I think) I'll be done here:

What is the history, or the descent, or derivation, or reference or whatever, of the word "Fenian" in the Fenian rebellion?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:24 PM

I was recently corresponding with a collateral descendant of Pope Adrian, who claimed that his bull had not at all given England the right to invade or to attempt to rule Ireland; you'd have to look at the original to see what the story is.

Strongbow brought a band of marauding Normans (kind of French Norsemen) who had made themselves unwelcome in Wales, to Ireland. He took advantage of the fact that the King of Leinster, Diarmuid Mac Murrough, wanted help in his attempt to make himself High King (King of Ireland), as far as I remember; Strongbow got Diarmuid's daughter Aoife, a noted beauty, as part of the bargain.

The Normans settled in and built a lot of castles across the middle of Ireland, deliniating the best land; soon they had married in and were speaking Irish, playing Irish sports, dressing in the Irish manner, and generally behaving like civilised people.

1916 was or was not a success depending on what you expect of it; its leaders did not expect to survive, but did expect to reawaken a national movement, which they did. After the executions of the leaders and mass internment of anyone involved or thought to be involved, a la Guantanamo etc, the country rose up; with the end of the Great War in 1918 many of those who had joined the British Army under the influence of John Redmond to fight in exchange for the promise of Home Rule (devolved government for Ireland) returned, bringing their arms and supplies with them, and joined their brothers and sisters in fighting the War of Independence (or as the British prefer it to be called, the Anglo-Irish War).

The Treaty of... what was it... around December 1921?... divided Ireland into 26 counties in Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster, and 6 in Ulster (Ulster has 9 counties altogether). The 6 Ulster counties to stay within the United Kingdom at that time were Derry, Armagh, Down, Antrim, Fermanagh and Tyrone, probably the six wealthiest counties, the most industrialised and the best farmland - and also the counties with the highest numbers of Unionists.

Ireland was a "Free State" from 1922 until 1949, and from 1949 became a republic. (That is, the 26 Counties did.) Then there was the Civil War, but let's not get into that.

If you want a site to check out dates, etc, try
here and for a dateline, here

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

Thanks for the correction, Big Mick. Perhaps I should have stifled myself rather than betray my ignorance.

I do know a *few* things about this general topic, but since I've read all my Irish history on my own (but never studied in anticipation of being tested, as would be the case if I had taken even one courwe in school), I've probably forgotten more details than I remember.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:27 PM

Take Tims advice and get yourselves a history of Ireland, some of the theories in this thread would suggest some of you have a better knowledge of the backside of the Moon.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:17 PM

There are some interesting source documents on this page, including the "The Bull of Pope Adrian IV Empowering Henry II to Conquer Ireland, A.D. 1155."

You might also be interested in this History of Ireland in Song.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:48 PM

PoppaGator, the song is dedicated to Fergal Ó Hanlon,
an IRA volunteer killed in the Brookeborough incident on New
Year's Eve 1956.

Mick

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

Dominick Behan's "The Patriot Game" may have been written in 1958, but I don't believe you can tie it to any rebellion or other political event at that late date -- except maybe for the always-ongoing and still-unresolved general overall troubles.

Most Irish histories that I've read point to the arrival of the "Norman knights" in 1169 as the beginning of English/British interference with Irish independence. I think.

Contending that the Church of England is really Catholic ("Anglo-Catholic") rather than Protestant is really stetching a point, isn't it? If that were true in any meaningful sense (not just academically), why have so many people been so upset for so many years?

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,mack/misophist
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

Pope Adrian (Hadrian?) gave Ireland to England so that the English might 'correct' them on certain matters of doctrine and practice, especially the calculation of the date for Easter, which was a hot item in those days. The Irish Church insisted on using the Jewish method, arguing that the method used by Jesus had to be correct. The Irish tonsure, among other things, was also an issue.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:11 AM

Exactly greg - all this movement of people and ideas, all these claims on origins, and the politicisation of archaeology (which is by no means unusual, unexpected or unwarranted). It's interesting.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:03 AM

My intent in the introduction to these two songs is to refer to the long period of time in which the "English" exercised control, and during which the Irish repeatedly tried to throw them out, putting the 1798 and Fenian rebellions in context, to help the meaning of the songs come through.

Thanks to all posters, and particularly to those who were able to give me the dates.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:55 AM

Erinmaidin:

You are right, "conquer" is at best a loaded term, and at worst misleading or false. I realized after I started the thread that "conquered" implies more than merely invading and occupying, or seizing power.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:43 AM

Fibula Mattock's point deserves serious consideartion. The Celts invaded Ireland from Britain, taking over from the original megalthic stone circle builders, who presumably also displaced the previoul inhabitants. Nobody really knows how much these "invasions" involved large population arrivals; they may well ahve been a few chaps with rather better weappons and a greater degree of bloodthirstiness, who cowed but ddid not actually displace the original lot.
   But whichever way you look at it, Strongbow and his Angl0-Normans were only one group of a long line of arrivals/conquerors/invaders (label them as you wish). A crucial point to remember, for all of us, is that the so-called "Celts"( a meaningless term in this contewxt IMHO) wee only one group in a very long history. In no sense were they aboriginal.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:59 AM

And don't forget the Romans -- much later, but well documented. And they didn't actually conquer anybody in Hibernia.

Many "serious" Church-of-Englanders will tell you that the CofE is not and never was Protestant: it is Anglo-Catholic, as distinct from Roman Catholic, and the only difference is that the Pope believes he is the spiritual superior of the British monarch, while the Bm doesn't. I do not intend to advance arguments on either side of this! I'll just add that Henry VIII, as hinted at above, didn't like Protestants at all. (He executed Wycliffe for translating the New Testaent into English, then a few years later used it as the basis of his own translation. It survived largely into the King James AV too.)

Steve

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:32 AM

Well, the first people likely arrived there around 9000 years ago in the Early Mesolithic, and they had to come from somewhere else, possibly the next big island, so does that count? ;)

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:48 AM

As usual, Big Tim has it right. You could look a lot and not get a more concise short description of how it goes. The history has many twists and turns. One correction, Uncle Dave. The Rising of '16 could hardly be described as a success. The leaders of '16 were beaten and badly. It was only the excesses of the British in executing them, among other things, that caused world opinion to shift in favor of the Irish Nationalists. This had the effect of breathing air into the rebels. The reference to WW1 is a bit erroneous as well. While it is true that the rebels had intended to use the fact that the British were "otherwise preoccupied", the British negotiators stretched it out to the end of WW1. They then were able to shift troops to this struggle. The armistice in Europe occurred in late 1918. The truce was called for by King George in 1921. The IRA at that point was near collapse.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: erinmaidin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:22 AM

a short PS- if you wish to avoid alienating a large percentage of your audience, you'll want to also avoid the use of the word "conquer" when discussing Anglo/Irish political situations. Some alternative words that come to mind: intrude, interfere, annoy...you get the drift

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: erinmaidin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:20 AM

I'm with Ollie! The English did all they could and the language and culture still lives!

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:52 AM

There was no single "English" invasion and conquest of Ireland (historians prefer the term "Anglo-Norman"). Prior to the first "invasion", in 1169, Ireland was hardly "united": more like a series of regional "kingdoms", like Ulster, for example. I put the term "ivasion" in inverted commas because the first Anglo-Normans were invited in by Dermott MacMurrough, exiled King of Leinster, to help him reclaim his title. Of course, the Anglo-Normans then got greedy and gradually took over most of the country. Ulster remained more Gaelic, the least affected by anglicization: partly the reason it was "planted" with Protestant, loyal (to England/Britain) settlers, in the 17th century.

The best known of the early invaders was Strongbow, Richard Fitzgilbert, Earl of Clare (died 1176), who landed his force at Waterford in August 1170. After that, it was pretty much downhill all the way for the Irish, until the Republic was declared in 1948.

Before the Reformation however, the wars were mostly about power, status, wealth. When England (as it still was) adopted the reformed Protestant faith in the 16th century, things really got complicated. The old Anglo-Normans, pre-Reformation, had largely become "more Irish than the Irish", adopting Irish culture and language. The later Protestant settlers didn't. Largely speaking, they wished to retain their English/British, identity.

I'd suggest that you buy a decent history of Ireland.

Subject: RE: When England orig'lly conquered Ireland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:08 AM

England ceased to exist as a nation state in 1707 when it became a member of Great Britain so it is incorrect to refer to England as having disolved the Irish parliament in 1801. At the moment Scotland has some form of Parliament but the UK Parliament at Westminister has overall authority and England has no independent parliament or Assembly (like Wales). It is also a fact that America achieved Independence (from Great Britain) after England lost hers.