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BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killed

Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 04 Nov 04 - 09:57 PM
artbrooks 04 Nov 04 - 09:59 PM
Shanghaiceltic 04 Nov 04 - 10:37 PM
katlaughing 05 Nov 04 - 01:45 AM
Peace 05 Nov 04 - 01:57 AM
Ooh-Aah2 05 Nov 04 - 02:33 AM
Wilfried Schaum 05 Nov 04 - 02:50 AM
GUEST 05 Nov 04 - 02:54 AM
George Papavgeris 05 Nov 04 - 03:39 AM
Peace 05 Nov 04 - 03:57 AM
GUEST 05 Nov 04 - 03:57 AM
Flash Company 05 Nov 04 - 04:56 AM
Peace 05 Nov 04 - 05:43 AM
HuwG 05 Nov 04 - 06:04 AM
Geoff the Duck 05 Nov 04 - 06:20 AM
sledge 05 Nov 04 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Uisteach 05 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Boab 05 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Boab_d 05 Nov 04 - 08:18 PM
akenaton 05 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM
Richard Atkins 05 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 04 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 06 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM
Les from Hull 06 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM
Georgiansilver 06 Nov 04 - 04:13 PM
dianavan 06 Nov 04 - 06:57 PM
Richard Atkins 06 Nov 04 - 09:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 04 - 04:40 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 07 Nov 04 - 10:31 AM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 07 Nov 04 - 11:09 AM
GUEST 08 Nov 04 - 06:31 AM
GUEST 08 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM
Nemesis 08 Nov 04 - 07:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Nov 04 - 08:37 AM
Peace 09 Nov 04 - 10:29 AM
Gervase 09 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM
Pauline L 09 Nov 04 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Boab 09 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM
Nemesis 10 Nov 04 - 07:27 PM
Ooh-Aah2 10 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM
GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) 11 Nov 04 - 10:21 AM
Gervase 12 Nov 04 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,donuel 12 Nov 04 - 09:54 AM
Pauline L 12 Nov 04 - 01:09 PM
Pauline L 12 Nov 04 - 01:16 PM
Peace 12 Nov 04 - 02:14 PM
Peace 12 Nov 04 - 02:23 PM
GUEST 12 Nov 04 - 03:34 PM
Pauline L 12 Nov 04 - 10:59 PM
Peace 13 Nov 04 - 01:07 AM
GUEST 13 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM
robomatic 13 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM
Ima Gittin' 13 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM
Ima Gittin' 13 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

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Subject: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:57 PM

3 members of the Black watch were killed today in Iraq [murdered by Blair and bush]
well done Tony!


tony blair= if your so keen on the war, why dont you fuck off to iraq then?

these were 3 british men, [along with dozens of casulaties ], killed for no reason,
there are 130,000 american troops in Iraq, america asked for british back up, why?
britain sent 800 more troops, 3 of them died today.


was is worth it?


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:59 PM

no


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 10:37 PM

Here's what appeared in the on line Telegraph. My thoughts are with these poor sods.

Report here


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:45 AM

There are many and no, it has not been worth even one of their lives. Here is an astonishing mosaic made of their individual photos: click here


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:57 AM

Most powerful book cover I ever saw was from Andy McNab's "Bravo Two Zero". It was the true story of some SAS members in the Gulf War. The faces of five men were shown in their entirety; three others had their eyes blacked out. Took a few moments to realize what that photograph meant.

Folks, this filthy fu#kin' war has to stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:33 AM

Hear hear Brucie! And as an Englishman I am disgusted the way we are sending all the Scots for cannon fodder. I heard on the (Australian) radio the regiments involved and they were all Scottish. English troops should be sent in to take their chance - but the whole lot should be pulled out anyway and Bush told to FUCK OFF!!!

The state of the world is too disgusting and hopeless for words.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:50 AM

Poor Gallant Forty-Twa.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:54 AM

Ooh-Ah

They are Scottish troops cos they are who is there....or do you imagine that this 'War' (perhaps unlike other wars you may vaguely have heard of....) was going to be one in which people were going to get killed, & thus Scottish & Welsh troops are sent instead of English ones?

Brucie,

Their eyes were blacked out cos thats standard practice with anyones Special Forces, I'd guess.... the ones that WERENT blacked out were the fatality, & Andy McNab, the Author.....


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:39 AM

"the cost is too great and won't fit in my head,
so I go back to counting my blessings instead..."

What pride can the parents of these poor buggers have, to balance their grief? Which piece of Scotland, or of the British Isles, were they defending? And from which enemy?

In war, no death makes sense, but some make even less sense than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:57 AM

Guest: Andy McNab is still alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:57 AM

Wilfried,

Here's to tha Soldier
Wha's like him?
Gey few,
An' a lot of 'em dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Flash Company
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:56 AM

The thing that gets me is the cynicism of sending a historic fighting (with the accent on the word 'fighting')regiment into a front line position at the same time as you are planning to disband them.

FC


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:43 AM

The Watch has a remarkable history. (I used to go to the Armory to listen to their pipers and drummers practise on Monday nights in Montreal.) It's odd, but when Canada's forces were joined under one uniform, the Watch were told they'd have to relinquish their kilts. Their response was, "Come take them." However, even a history of bravery and courage will provide little solace to grieving families this day. You take the high road and I'll take the low road. Night, lads.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: HuwG
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:04 AM

There is a mixture of arguments with regard to this.


Firstly, life has been very hard on the Black Watch. After going from Germany to the battle for Basra, they had been moved to Warminster (the British Army's School of Infantry) for what they thought would be a nice long tour. Plenty of time to recruit and train, and for the soldiers to spend time with their families. Instead they are now on their second tour in Iraq. As the reserve battlegroup for the British-led Multi-National Division (South), they were the obvious choice to go to any hot spot, but it is also a tribute to their level of training and experience as an armoured infantry formation.

The Black Watch have declared that their aim is to try and make friends with the local population. They intend to patrol in low-key fashion, wearing their Tam O'Shanter headgear, rather than helmets for example. I think this may be optimistic. Now I don't want to be rude to the US Armed Forces, but it does appear that they have really worked at annoying the population of Iraq. When I see US Soldiers in Iraq on television, it seems that they have all gone for the Robocop look; full armour, festooned with hi-tech gadgets, with dark glasses so that no human emotion can be seen on the few centimetres of face visible.

It would be difficult for any Iraqi, however grateful for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, to empathise with such an army of robots, and vice versa. I suspect that by now, the various resistance movements (Sunni Moslems, Saddam Hussein loyalists or whatever) won't view more easy-going troops as friends, but as more vulnerable targets.

The worry about the risks will be deeply felt, not only in the Black Watch's own military community, but in their very close-knit recruiting area (North Fife and Perthshire). This is one drawback of the British Army's regimental system, in which units are recruited from small areas in Britain, with deep roots and strong local feeling. It gives units great cohesion, but disproportionate losses to any unit (such as the disaster suffered by the Welsh Guards at Bluff Cove in 1982) affect the community they were drawn from in much the same way.




The argument about the possible disbandment is a concurrently rumbling dispute. It is unfortunate that the Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon, is a bumptious and unmilitary solicitor (lawyer), and the proposed reforms can be seen as amateur meddling. The Defence Chiefs are supporting the general aim, which is to have four strong Scottish line infantry units rather than five overstretched ones.

However, to achieve the reorganisation, one Scottish unit (and three English units) will have to go, losing their regimental history and traditions. This isn't the first time that this has happened. The Cardwell reforms in the 1870's which carried out similar amalgamations, caused the same wailing and gnashing of teeth. However, the Cardwell reforms also stopped lots of cruel and inhumane anachronisms, and many units trace their true history back only as far as Cardwell.

Many amalgamations have been carried out since 1969, which have sometimes resulted in a regiment with good identity with its new recruiting area (such as the Royal Anglian Regiment, raised in the eastern counties). Other amalgamations have produced a nebulous mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:20 AM

I agree John - Murdered by Blair so that he could help Bush to win an election. The man should be put against a wall and used for target practice, preferably for the newest Scottish recruits who haven't learned how to fire straight yet. Blair doesn't deserve a single clean shot.
All the invading forces should be pulled out of Iraq.
Mind you - Bush probably wants to keep them there so that when he declares war against Iran he doesn't have far to ship them to steal their oil reserves as well.
Quack!!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: sledge
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:47 AM

Blair has said he is sorry so that makes it all right then. I wonder if he will be awarded a seat on the board of Halliburton at some date in the future?

Sledge


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST,Uisteach
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM

I agree with everything that has posted but it's ironic that the Black Watch was founded to repress their own Scottish Highlanders after Culloden. The were called 'Black' after the colour of their dark 'Government Tartan' kilts. They were basically a quisling police force against fellow Scots.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM

Even those (in UK) who don't support this action in Iraq, I hope will be wearing the poppy for 'Remembrance Day'. Despite claims over the last few years, this does not support or glorify war. It shows support for those who have made 'The Supreme Sacrifice' for their country.

IN FLANDERS FIELDS
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918) Canadian Army

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST,Boab_d
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:18 PM

Sorry I pressed the wrong button just then.
Rigthy then here's how i see it from a personal point of view. As an ex-squaddie I got the only tanking in my life from the Black Watch . The reason that happened was that they stuck together. Thats what soldiers do and they beat me. Now being in a position to have been inside but now outside I can now say that there are some things wrong and some things right
the right thing is to go out and present the Iraq'is the face of Soldiering the way that it should be. Friendly and fair and above all non judgemental. And having ben in Kosovo twice as a serving soldier that is the method that works hearts and minds before rounds and hides.The blokes should not be there at all and this isnt political but in truth if the yanks cnt provide an extra 800 troops for the area they wanted to control then from a military of over 1 million why get 800 scotish troops to do your dirty work and in 1 day loose 1%of your troops, cos thats whats just happened. Fuck me when this happens again thats 2% and 16 mothers or fathers and possiby weans with no dads.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning but homw is always better
Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM

Just heard the two privates who were killed.
One was 19 and the other 22. The sergeant 29
"Jist Weans".

I have a deep hatred for these weasels in Westminster with their,"our thoughts are with the families" or "our hearts go out to their loved ones".
John is correct...the bastards should be shipped out to Iraq to face the music .....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM

Did marches through London to Hyde Park against the invasion of Iraq. Thought it would turn into another Vietnam situation and here we are! The Three Black Watch will be of many to die not defending their homeland. So unfair on those left bereaved. And the voters in America think Gee thats fine. Will we do the same!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:07 AM

I honestly cant see it being another Vietnam....

I confidently predict that a week from now, The Forty Twa' will be patrolling the streets, manning Checkpoints, & basically 'policing' in the way the Army does.

Maybe they wont make it safe enough for them to wear their Tam O'Shanters before they go, but it will be close to that.

These blokes want to be home by Xmas.

Theyll make sure its pacified in time for them to do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

Hope you're right, guest. I would never have the guts to do what these guys sign up to do voluntarily. However, one of my worries is that the Black Watch have been redeployed (partly) because American reservists have been refusing orders and phoning their mummies at home asking them to tell their congressmen to get them home. So British professional soldiers are having to clean up a mess caused by the fact that the American army is crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM

Much as I deplore the war, and hate Bush and Blair for starting it, I think I will reserve a little bit of hatred for the rotten bastards who convince young Muslims to blow themselves up.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:13 PM

Death is never pretty, even if you volunteer for it!!!
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:57 PM

katlaughing - That is a fabulous collage. Very, very sad - especially when you click on a portion of the face and see the soldier's portraits individually. What a waste. When are people going to learn that there is no glory in war.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 09:53 PM

Hope GUEST is right. All future grief sorted by Christmas Brill!


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:40 AM

Basra was not the hottest objective, but there was stiff resistance including heavy mortars. But the Brits would not use indirect fire weapons (artillery) against a populated city.
I despair when I see what the US army has started to do to Fuluja. We have already seen pictures of child and civillian victims.
I know that they are desperate to keep military casualties down, but the consequences of this will reverberate for years.
The true role of a soldier is to shield the innocent, if necassary at risk to himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:31 AM

Dead right, Keith.

I followed Kat's link to that photo montage. The high-res version took a hell of a long time to downlaod on my PC, but what a stunning piece of work.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:09 AM

I might sound heartless but what about the innocent Iraqies that are being killed by the bombers, they haven't being metioned in the papers, but 3 black watch members are killed and it's all over the papers, I mean that's the risk you take when you become a soldier.
I feel sad about it as well but not one person has mentioned the Iraqies that have been killed in these bombings.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:31 AM

1st casualties of the assault on Falluja....

2 U.S. Marines died when they drove their bulldozer into the Euphrates....

The mind BOGGLES....

...& I am now listening to a History of the Crimean War on BBC Radio 4, & the thought strikes me that even when at its most frighteningly incompetent, the British Army still produces INCREDIBLE heroism, such as the Charge of the Light Brigade ("Go again, Sir?") & 'that thin red streak, tipped with a line of steel', which has come down to us now as the 'thin red line'...

...& Hollywood steals such phrases, writes, films & sells SHITE under such headings, phrases stolen from the 'gravestones' of brave men, & attaches it to the uniforms of a colour worn by men who drive bulldozers into rivers....

I'm sorry, that turned into quite a rant, but Thursday is 'Armistice Day', & I wonder how many new pooppies will be needed because of American incompetence, & whatever other flaws, too many to mention, they have exhibited in Iraq.

Now i know there are American veterans here on the 'Cat, & brave men all, I have NO reason to doubt, but what, can I ask you, made the Army you served in so God-awful, & why does it appear even WORSE now?

Sorry, sorry, this is harsh I know but can anyone honestly defend the 'approach' the U.S. Military has used?


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM

Somewhere along the line they replaced professionalism with arrogance. Oh, and they have been watching too many Rambo movies. Is there an IQ test to enlist?


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:34 PM

My Grandfather was in the Black Watch for 33 years - joined up because of poverty in the Highlands .. he was a 12 year old drummer boy at the Dublin Uprising, in the Battle of the Somme, in India between WW1 and WW2, then at Dunkirk and then shipped out to Singapore and spent 3 years in Changi as a Japanese POW..

The POWs were in such a bad way that he couldn't eat the food the Americans offered them - as a kid I'd wake up, hearing him still screaming in his sleep nearly 30 years later having nightmares about the POW camp..

He was made a Major on the field and I asked him that surely, vis the Americans relieving them in Singapore, what then he thought of American Armed Forces and their capabitilities ...he said two words:

..
..
..
..
..
"Peanut butter!" ..

that's a BW opinion of American forces then .. wonder what they're saying in Iraq these days?


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:37 AM

Whatever you think of the US army Guest, you were unjustly harsh on the two dead marines.
I doubt they just bumbled into the river due to incompetence.
More likely they were pushing safety constraints beyond the limit to complete their mission.
I hope their families do not read your post.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:29 AM

I'll second what Keith said and add that soldiers do not enlist to get killed. Yes, it is part of the job--it's a high-risk occupation--but when good men die due to the incompetence of civilian leadership, then nations have a responsibility to mourn.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:56 AM

Thirded!
When soldiers die, it's not usually down to their own incompetence; it's usually because someone higher up has been pushng them too hard or demanding the impossible.
The incompetence here is in the SOPs drummed into the US military mindset at staff level and right on up to the Commander in Chief. Don't blame the grunts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Pauline L
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:39 PM

I just read about the Black Watch on two of their websites, where they are portrayed as anything but victims of the Bush-Blair coalition. The First Battalion of the Black Watch was created by the English, who employed Highlanders alleged to be loyal to England and charged them with preventing fighting among the Scots and enforcing gun control laws (no guns allowed among Scotsmen). Their role as "peacekeepers" in Iraq has precedent in their founding. They are proud that, even though they lost the first battle they fought alongside the English, the enemy described them as awesome fierce fighters. They served everywhere the Brits went, including the Franco-Indian War, the Boer War, and, of course, WWI and II. They were the last British troops to leave Pakistan, where they had bravely but vainly fought to prevent the Muslims and Hindus from killing each other after Partition. In fact, this action was a sequel to their participation in the Liberation of India. (Ahem! I hope I don't get struck by lightning for that last phrase.) In their actions in India/Pakistan, they were, once again, peacekeepers. They are allegedly proud to help defend the Iraqis from each other after going into Iraq to liberate this country, too. I'm not making this up. I got it all from their websites.

Pardon me if I sound somewhat sarcastic. I never did understand the business of liberation and peacekeeping.

Pauline


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM

Peace keepers are basically there to try and divide the warring communities and thats there task. Sent out to guard churches or a wee old woman because she is 80 and cant defent herself against the majority of the population brought on by genocide of her former president. But thats what peace keepers are there for and if they can peace keep then good on them. If it becomes a more active roll then you really couldnt ask for a more proficient regiment than the Black Watch.

Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 07:27 PM

Thank you Dylan .. (I think) it is also the Black Watch who went in against the Germans in the trenches in WW2 - in full highland dress playing bagpipes - scared the shit out of them: "The ladies from Hell" they called them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM

The 'ladies from hell' quote is from world war 1.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 10:21 AM

The 19 year old private was Paul Lowe, a drummer in the Pipes and Drums of the 1st Battalion, the Black Watch.

Pete


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 09:50 AM

Maybe, Pauline, it's because you don't live in somewhere where your neighbours try to kill you because you're a different colour or religion. I think they understand peacekeeping better in Sierra Leone and a host of other places where it's worked.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 09:54 AM

On the afternoon of Sept. 11, Donald Rumsfeld, having failed to act against those who had just attacked the United States, told his aides to set in motion an attack on Iraq – when the evidence was nonexistent. Eighteen months later, the invasion of Iraq, unprovoked and based on lies now documented, took place. This epic crime is the greatest political scandal of our time, the latest chapter in the long 20th-century history of the West's conquests of other lands and their resources. If we allow it to be normalized., if we refuse to question and probe the hidden agendas and unaccountable secret power structures at the heart of "democratic" governments and if we allow the people of Fallujah to be crushed in our name, we surrender both democracy and humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Pauline L
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:09 PM

Re peacekeeping between warring factions: My thinking is that "peacekeepers" cause more violence, not less. The British used "divide and conquer" to secure their own control. It happened again and again, all over the world, throughout modern history. When the U.S. government says that we're in Iraq to protect the people from each other, what they really mean is that we're joining, or even provoking, the war to put "our side" or our puppet government in charge. Naturally, they kill people to do this. They are warriors, not peacekeepers. The very word "peacekeepers" is a wartime atrocity. People who would not support war and killing might fall for the notion that we're spreading peace.

I also feel that nationalistic condescension is implied, i.e., those poor ignorant natives can't take care of themselves. Kipling said it better: "Take up the white man's burden..." I've never quite forgiven him for that.

Although I am not a Quaker, I agree strongly with many of their political views, which are faith based. I recommend reading the website of the Friends Committee on National Legislation, www.fcnl.org (the link maker here isn't working). Their slogan is "War Is Not The Answer." They have some very good pieces on what the problems and their roots are and how to right some wrongs without wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Pauline L
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:16 PM

Some more thoughts on war and peace: When American soldiers were fighting/keeping the peace in Vietnam, the American government used to tell us that "we destroyed the village in order to save the village." The villagers were not polled about their wishes first. Then Nixon would say that abortion is wrong because taking a human life is wrong (!!!?!!). It's happening again in Iraq. During one of the Presidential debates, Bush said that stem cell research (read: abortion) is wrong because it is not worth taking one life to save another. He started a war in Iraq!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peace
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:14 PM

Pauline L:

Tell that stuff to my countrymen and women who are at present involved in about ten peacekeeping operation around the world. They would be quite shocked to learn about the harm they are bringing to the people they are protecting from things like ethnic cleansing. I think you are out to lunch with that statement. Get yer facts in order, SVP.

Bruce Murdoch
Canada


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peace
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:23 PM

Sorry. That should read 12 UN-sanctioned peacekeeping operations.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 03:34 PM

Pauline....

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Pauline L
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:59 PM

I suggest that you reread my recent posts and focus on the facts. Bush started a war in Iraq. There have been many casualties (deaths). This is keeping peace? I'll admit that "peacekeeping" sounds a lot better than "waging war," but the Americans, British, and others are waging war in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:07 AM

"My thinking is that "peacekeepers" cause more violence, not less. The British used "divide and conquer" to secure their own control. It happened again and again, all over the world, throughout modern history."

If you mean Canadian peacekeepers, I disaggree. If you are talking about a force that invaded a country and is keepiing the lid on where it can, than I agree. However, you're jumping all over and I'm having a hard time seeing what you're pissed about. I THINK you are mad at the US. Lots of the world is. What is happening in Iraq is not peacekeeping. With that I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM

Pauline,

You seem to be blaming the Soldiers, not the Politicians......which is wht I posted 'TOMMY'


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

Whatever Canadians may do or say, I remember that when we really need Canada, she's there. I remember when she helped hide American hostages in Iran.

I also know that many of the Commonwealth considered us 'late to the party' in 1941. On the other hand, we supported Great Britain in the Falklands campaign.

I honor Great Britain that she has sacrificed along with us in this current war.

The United States has quite a few 'special relationships' with other countries and our neighbors, but the oldest has to be with our Mother Country, Great Britain, a tie in history, culture, language, formative concepts, and institutional models, and the folk heritage that is the raison d'origine of this web site.

Thank you from some of your former colonies.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Ima Gittin'
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM

Here,here Robomatic. I couldn't have said it better.
I agree...this war has to stop. The politicians are to blame for the war mongering. Out front is bush and he's not waving the flag....he's holding his pockets.


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Subject: RE: BS: 3 Black Watch Soldiers killied
From: Ima Gittin'
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

For the countrymen and families of the brave fallen in iraq, ......I can only hope that their lives were not spent in vain. I grieve with you for the lives sacrificed and lost. I pray for an end of this sensless slaughter soon to come.


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