BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown

Subject: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:39 AM

Depression
Anger
crying
Whining
Sour grapes
fingerpointing
no cooperation
In some cases, withdrawal

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM

Didn't the Rolling Stones do a song about that one?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stu
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

In some cases, withdrawal

But not, unfortuately, from Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM

Sorry Martin, I don't think we are jumping off buildings on this one.   As much as conservatives would love that.   Sure, it isn't a happy time for us, but there are still enough positive signs that liberal voices are being heard again and will be heard from again. I will go out on a limb, just wait for the mid-term elections and unless there is a turnaround, you will see some changes in the makeup of congress and the senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM

Martin, instead of wasting bandwidth by starting a new thread, why didn't you use one of the myriad of threads that already exist for this? And being as how you have made the allegations, could you cite some examples of this?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:57 AM

Yes, you.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:08 PM

I forgot:

denial

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Chris Green
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Actually I think you'll find that's a large river in Egypt. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Topper
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:22 PM

It is a simple, obvious fact that there are more conservatives than liberals.

Evry day the ranks of the liberals shrinks because they turn more radical, offend their own and make them into conservatives.

Liberals are a dying breed.

Cosmo Topper

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:24 PM

55+ million liberals - hardly "dying"

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Chris Green
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM

I agree that liberalism in America appears to be on the decline (from where I am, which is England by the way.) But I don't think it's true that conservatism is on the up. I just think that more and more people are becoming too idle to think for themselves and prefer to be told what to think by unscrupulous politicians who claim to offer a quick fix to a myriad of ills. And just before anyone accuses me of America-bashing this is happening all over the "civilised" world - it's just that it's most noticeable in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Webster
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM

The word liberal, like liberty, derives from the Latin liber ("free"). In religion and politics, to be liberal is to be tolerant or open-minded, to favour freedom over control. In other words, a liberal is someone who adheres to the ideology of liberalism.

In the United States, liberal is sometimes used as an antonym for Conservative or a synonym for left-wing. There, it primarily refers to the New Deal variant of liberalism, emphasizing the positive role of the state. In other countries, liberal may have quite an opposite meaning: for instance, in France a liberal is a right-wing or classical liberal proponent of free markets. Elsewhere a liberal is somewhere between these two positions, or can refer to both. Some would use liberal in the classical liberal meaning of the word, others would prefer the social liberal meaning of the word.

Daniel

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

Assuming everyone who voted for Kerry is a liberal is as ridiculous as saying that everyone who voted for Bush is a conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:06 PM

The trouble with this whole hypothesis is that it originates in the premise that the country has spoken and the progressives got whipped. The assumption is that is a repudiation of the progressive agenda. I would suggest that you folks are deluding yourselves, and quite frankly that pleases me. You are guilty of believing your own press, the first sign of a fall.

While I will agree that on certain issues, we alienated the middle, you would consider if you were wise is that this was a race too close to call right up to the end. You would consider that were it not fot the wedge issues, more folks agreed with the progressive agenda of environmental responsibility, a better foreign policy approach, ending the dependence on foreign oil, and a whole host of domestic items, including health care and prescription drugs. To be sure, we on the left must temper the more radically inclined among our ranks, while heeding the real issues they raise.

Go on with the gloating. As a veteran of the political scene, I love it when the opposition believes they have a mandate, and overestimates the political capital they really have.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM

The truth of the matter is that the evangelicals won. Think about that for awhile!

"Don't mourn! Organize!" —Joe Hill

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:57 PM

Thanks Don! I was thinking of the Joe Hill quote this morning. Perfect!

I also remembered Lee Hays great line comparing Ronald Reagan to kidney stones - "This too shall pass".

Honestly, I'm not sure if we can blame it on the evangelicals. I think we give them too much credit. Sure they make a huge impact, but I don't think they represent the majority of Americans.

Here is a segment from Maureen Dowd's column that describes some of the new Senators-
"Tom Coburn, the new senator from Oklahoma, has advocated the death penalty for doctors who perform abortions and warned that "the gay agenda" would undermine the country. He also characterized his race as a choice between "good and evil" and said he had heard there was "rampant lesbianism" in Oklahoma schools.

Jim DeMint, the new senator from South Carolina, said during his campaign that he supported a state G.O.P. platform plank banning gays from teaching in public schools. He explained, "I would have given the same answer when asked if a single woman who was pregnant and living with her boyfriend should be hired to teach my third-grade children."

John Thune, who toppled Tom Daschle, is an anti-abortion Christian conservative - or "servant leader," as he was hailed in a campaign ad - who supports constitutional amendments banning flag burning and gay marriage. "

Something is amiss if we feel that these people truly represent the values of America.   There is more to this election. Something just isn't clicking. If my values are wrong and I am supposed to follow these shining examples, then the world is truly coming to an end.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

Wrong Don. The neocons won. The petrochemical industry won. Wall Street won. Big media won. Thanks to the Securocrat's Anybody But Bush strategy, that is.

No one in Democratic circles is claiming the progressive agenda needs "toning down" to win in 2008. No one. Quite the contrary, the talk is of why the liberal agenda was and is a lost cause. Why the securocrat wing of the Democratic party needs to be ousted.

Maybe Zell Miller was saying the Democratic wing of the Democratic party needs toning down? I don't know. I never hear those delusional Democratic party voices in my head. I stopped reading Common Dreams, Alter Net, The Nation, and Working for Change months ago, when it became clear they, like moveon.org, were mouthpieces for the Democratic Leadership Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:13 PM

Guest- do you have any clue how small of a constituency you are talking about?   What you consider as "progessive" would probably be considered as "radical" to most of us. The far right and the far left are the fringe. Both parties have their share of PROGRESSIVES.

LIBERAL is what is missing in the Democratic Party, not PROGRESSIVE. All social change is the result of LIBERAL thought and action, not progressives or conservatives.

Democrats have been running scared of the word LIBERAL since Reagan and Limbaugh turned it into a four letter word. Since Dukakis, all strong Democratic leaders have been afraid to use the word.   We need to make people realize that liberals are not the communist monsters that the right is trying to paint.

Liberal Democrats have not suffered a nervous breakdown. We've gone through a medical checkup and we have to lose a few pounds and run a few miles each day, but we will be back in shape come 2006 - midterm elections!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:01 PM

Depression.........................over it.
Anger.................................damn right..election was stolen by Republicans
crying..................................fighting
Whining..............................active. Bush built a fire under us.
Sour grapes........................cheating and lying Bush
fingerpointing......................Repubs conducted their whole election on this.
no cooperation....................What a joke. Bush as uniter?
In some cases, withdrawal..Don't bet on it! We're coming back stronger.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

Progressives were soundly defeated.   Nader got less than 1% of vote.   Dean and Kucinich were jokes that didn't make it past Iowa.   Kerry abandoned his liberal record to run as a republicrat - a democrat predtending to be a republican.   After all, Kerry became a hawk about Iraq promising to send in 40,000 more soldiers if elected.

Hardly sounds like a progressive to me.   I wish you progressives would run as progressives and liberals instead of trying to pretend your centerists.    You have no soul, sell out all your values, and lose anyway.    At least if you tell people your honest and real positions as progressives, you will lose with dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:17 PM

Larry, Larry, Larry. You are confusing progressives with liberals. For shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:18 PM

Not wrong, GUEST.

"The neocons won. The petrochemical industry won. Wall Street won. Big media won."

You're right about that, but the evangelicals came out in force this time and were more than enough to swing the election. They're not the majority by any means, but they're a major force. Their concept of "moral values" is narrowed down to anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research, and anti-gay marriage. The idea that moral values could include such things as care for the environment ("dominion over the earth" means that you take good care of it, you don't dig it up, pave it over, and poison its oceans and atmosphere), care for the poor, the sick, and the oppressed (Matthew 25:35-40), lying to the multitudes ("false witness" on a grand scale), and ordering the killing of thousands of people, not in self-defense, but for geopolitical domination. When it comes to moral values, "bedroom morality" is just about all that counts with these people.

Karl Rove knows how to play them like a ukulele. Example: Bush wasn't doing very well in his run for governor of Texas against Ann Richards, one of the most popular governors of all time, until Karl Rove stated sending people out on Sundays to church parking lots to stick flyers under peoples' windshield wipers. The flyers claimed that Ann Richards had hired a lot of homosexuals as state civil servants. The hiring policy under Ann Richards had no such policy, but the libel caught on and it was enough to swing the gubernatorial election to Bush. Karl Rove is an assassin in the same mold as Cesare Borgia. But a dagger in the back in a dark alley is considered a bit excessive in this modern world. Character assassination works just as well, and it doesn't carry the hazard of getting the perpetrator arrested and tried for murder. Rove is undoubtedly the one who came up with the phrase "flip-flopper," which the Republicans used like a chant, and probably had a lot to do with the "Swift Boat Veterans'" libel. It has his fingerprints all over it. Machiavelli lives, and he works in the White House.

The Democratic Party has moved way the hell and gone away from its traditional position. They got that way through years of 1) being such an amalgam of various liberal and progressive beliefs that, as a political party, they not being all that sure about what they really did believe; and 2) being afraid that they weren't "moderate" enough to win against the Republicans. GUEST, if you could convince me that the Green Party actually has a chance in a future election, then that's probably where I'd put my efforts. Until then, I'll do my damnedest to change the Democratic Party. And incidentally, I am not a member of the Democratic Party. I'm not a member of any political party.

Sometimes, GUEST, I think your hatred of the Democratic Party verges on the pathological.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:23 PM

Looks like you're another sore winner, Martin.

On second thought, maybe you're right to be sore: your new masters, those evangelical Christian fundamentalists, don't much like Jews.

...They came for the liberals but I wasn't a liberal so I said nothing...

a little paraphrase for you, there.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Janie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

I suggest an admittedly heavy read "The Battle for God" by Karen Armstrong. A very irudite exploration of the rise of postmodern fundamentalism among the major monotheistic religions.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:49 PM

The numbers of actual voters from Tuesday aren't solid yet, but roughly looked like this:

Of the 100% of eligible US voters:

Bush got 30%
Kerry got 27%

The remaining 43-45% of eligible voters largely didn't vote. They are the majority, and the majority doesn't support either party enough to vote for them, now do they?

So the claim that the number of progressives in the US is infintessimally small is nothing more than a specious claim, made by people with political interests in seeing the progressive constituency marginalized and ignored by the mainstream. That is why polls never even ask if people consider themselves progressives.

Now, if we can accept that evangelical Christians make up at least one-fifth of the actual voters (which gets diluted when you put that number up against the number of eligible voters), why is it so impossible to conceive that there may very well be at least as large a group of progressives out there in eligible voterland?

Answer, Ron, is you can't think your way out of the mainstream box. Which of course, has nothing to do with the actual numbers of progressives in this country one iota. Because you are a party regular Ron, you likely rarely come in contact with many progressives. Most of them fled the party after Reagan won.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:06 PM

You might also want to take a look at Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture by Bishop John Shelby Spong, (here).   

Bishop Spong's knowledge of the Bible is second to none, and his theology is rock-solid. This book is a very interesting read, and it can arm you with a lot of powerful information for knock-down-drag-out arguments with the religiously narrow-minded. Sometimes you can tell a lot about a person by taking a good look at those who hate his guts. Put "Bishop Spong" into google and take a good look at what shows up. A long list of really savage attacks by the "Fundies".

There are few people in the world the Fundies hate worse than someone who knows more about the Bible than they do—which is not that difficult, really—and points out where they are dead wrong.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

GUEST, it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the eligible voters who didn't bother to vote were all disenchanted progressives. More likely, they were just bloody apathetic, not into thinking much beyond what's on TV tonight, especially when voting involves getting up off their butts to go stand in line somewhere.

"They're apathetic because they're not being offered a genuine progressive alternative," you say? No, if they did go out and vote, the numbers would be larger, but the overall outcome would quite probably be the same.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM

So what GUEST is saying is:

If the so-called progressives stopped whining and instead all organized together and voted for a single candidate, that candidate would win.

Great, GUEST. I'm all for it.

Now do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

Oh come on, you know full well I wasn't claiming that they were all progressives. What I said is there is no way of proving that the progressive constituency in this nation is minute, and that Ron was making a specious claim by saying so.

What I was doing was, first, to show the reality of the % of all eligible voters who actually voted for Bush. Like Reagan and Clinton after him, that number is suprisingly small, and definitely smaller than the number of people who voted for neither Democratic or Republican candidates.

"They're apathetic because they're not being offered a genuine progressive alternative," you say?"

I said no such thing Don. You are having an imaginary conversation with me, strictly on your own.

Thank you Nerd, for being more clear than I was. Yes, I am saying that with some serious work, either a progressive Democrat or an independent candidate (not a Green Party candidate) like Nader, could unite enough of the progressive left with the traditional Democratic center-left party regulars, and elect a progressive president. Just as likely a scenario as Bushie boy getting in, if you look at the Republican playbook! What I'm saying is, by building coalitions, it could be done within 2, maybe 3 presidential election cycles. Maybe less, depending on how dire things get under Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:14 PM

Okay, GUEST. Now, your last paragraph just above I agree with.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

You know, you Anybody But Bushies gotta get on board. Either you want to win, and move the US and world towards a future where we might begin to work on some of the damage done by 35+ years of the Republican/Republicrat Balkanization of US political life, or you want to keep to the status quo, so you can keep voting for "safe" securocrat Democratic party hacks, like Kerry.

I'm not a Democrat, so it ain't my job to bust in on their party. I'm out here, working in coalition with others to present a united front, cuz that's what we need to win and get the crooks out.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:34 PM

"Anybody but Bush" was the logical way to go this time around. No one but Kerry stood any kind of chance of beating Bush, and howl all you want, but he wouldn't have done anywhere as much damage as Bush is going to do for the next four years, so I have no regrets at the moment, other than that Bush won. BUT--as Kerry kept saying, "We can do better!" We can indeed.

I'm all for coalition-building, GUEST. Keep me posted.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:02 PM

Okay, folks, a little reason here...

If people want think of Kerry as a "liberal" then fine. He ain't.

But my point is that, liberal or not, had he won he would soon be the owner of a lousy used war. Now I don't think that would be a very good thing fir a liberal to have to be straped with. And since the Iraq war is a quagmire which will be followed by a civil war when the US leaves, then why waste any politcial credit, or wnatever Bush calls it, attaching the term "liberal" to this mess???

What happened in the election was good for two reasons:

1. It's still the neocons war in Iraq.

2. The Dems lost and will now have to do some serious soul searching as to why? (Like, duhhh, Bobert! Ya think it was because Kerry's positions were nuhtin' more than Bush-Lite?)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Spock
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM

The Liberals/Democrats will never figure out what they did wrong. Mainly because they refuse to believe they did anything wrong.

They blame it on others or claim they did not loose after all.

They will get more beligerant and loose more ground in the next election unless they fess up and take the blame for losing.

Blunder away. It is quite entertaining and illogical.

Spock Here

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:30 PM

Don't be silly. I feel great today, and I am thoroughly enjoying watching this whole process as the $y$tem slowly lurches from one madness to another, exposing itself to more and more people's awareness in the process.

Life is good, Martin. I'm glad I'm here to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

You nailed it Spock! When you look up this thread and read the posts of the Kerry supporters, they are still in complete denial. They certainly don't think they need the progressives, that's for sure!

So, as I have these discussions as to whether we should work with the Democratic party, or just abandon them to themselves and start up the new Progressive Party, I'm leaning towards the latter. That's what worked to bring the last Gilded Age to a close, which eventually brought in FDR. I don't know why Democrats can't see the forest for the trees, except that their party benefits just as much as the Republicans from the political graft and corruption, so long as the Dems are willing to settle down and accept minority party status like they were in the last Gilded Age.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

At least the people who voted for Kerry knew the issues. The people who voted for Bush thought they were voting against Saddam Hussien getting nuclear weapons and giving them to terrorists who would terrorize them into marrying their brothers instead of their sisters.

When what they were voting for was to give their tax dollars to the "liberal" elite.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:02 PM

Guest Spock says:
"The Liberals/Democrats will never figure out what they did wrong. Mainly because they refuse to believe they did anything wrong."

I don't agree with this. I think one thing that came out is that us Liberal/Democrats were not vocal enough about the real things we stand for such as equality for all regardless of race or economic standing, the compassion for the poor and disenfranchised, the co-opting of "morality" by the Karl Rovian corporate criminals and tax evaders while screwing the poor muddled-headed Fascist Right-wing Religious nuts who think that a Theocratic rather than a Democratic government is more in line with their "God". Most of the time the people that quote what Kerry said got their information from mainstream media which is no longer to be trusted as a source for authentic news. There was clearly a corporate Right-wing bias by ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and penultimately by Fox as well as most of the newspapers in the US who repeated the Republican lies so frequently that the people bought them. Kerry actually said more in his speeches than got reported on the media. I believe that us Liberals did plenty wrong and we will correct many of these things during the next four years.

Jack the Sailor,
"When what they were voting for was to give their tax dollars to the "liberal" elite. "

Actually Jack, they voted to give their tax dollars to a failed war in Iraq, a bailout for corporate criminals, and the "elite" consists of those special interests who now run our country and have the blessing of tax evasion dispensed by the Bush Crime Family.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

Larry K said something above, and I agree with it:

Kerry abandoned his liberal record to run as a republicrat - a democrat predtending to be a republican.   After all, Kerry became a hawk about Iraq promising to send in 40,000 more soldiers if elected

I think Bill Clinton did the same thing. Bill privatized me out of my government career. I thought it was Republicans who were the ones who believed in privatization.

But that's another matter. I have to say that this wasn't much of an election for me, because neither major party offered a candidate that people could really believe in. I could believe in Colin Powell, and I think much of the country could. I believe in MMario Cuomo and Hilary Clinton - but I'm afraid much of the country couldn't stomach them. I think I and much of the country could believe in John McCain, but I'm not sure.

I don't think most Republicans believe in George W., but he's the guy they got stuck with. Same with Kerry and the Democrats. It's a shame we always seem to end up with such mediocrity - or worse.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM

"It's a shame we always seem to end up with such mediocrity - or worse."

Conservative commentator and historian for Now with Bill Moyers made that very point last night too. He says the "lesser of two evils" reality is the rut the country has been stuck in for 30 years. Of course, he is closer to Nader's position about the influences of corruption on the American political process, but he traces the oligarchy (including the Bush dynasty) in his book "Wealth and Democracy". I love the guy, and will miss him as a commentator on NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:44 PM

Guest, you are still fooling yourself.   You have not shown how all the people who did not vote are truly "progressive". You can call me a "party regular" if you like, but again you are just making wild claims without any evidence. The problem with the far left is that the world you think you are living in does not center around you. You are just as guilty as those you accuse - you simply shut out anyone that disagrees with you as you have shown time and time again on these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM

OK Ron. Then maybe we should just agree to disagree, and stay out of each other's way.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Nerd
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

That ain't Spock. Spock can spell!

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

"Actually Jack, they voted to give their tax dollars to a failed war in Iraq, a bailout for corporate criminals, and the "elite" consists of those special interests who now run our country and have the blessing of tax evasion dispensed by the Bush Crime Family."

Actually, that's exactly what I meant by the "liberal" elite. I was referring to the fact that although the Rovians have convinced half the country that their problems are those fat cats who went to Yale and Harvard and who dominate the Corporate media, the financial industry and government, that that establishment in it purest form is exactly who they voted to enrich.

Hence the quotes I put around "liberal".

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: jaze
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM

I don't believe Hillary Clinton is a lost cause. What do you think she would have to do in the next few years to win over more Americans?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM

Die?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

Once again the GUEST thinks the answer if for us to let him/her just spout off whatever s/he wants in a PUBLIC forum, but we should just stay out of her way. Actually the only way for that to happen is for him/her to quit posting, or for those of us who disagree to quit posting. Neither is a likely outcome. So post away, and we will continue to show what we think is wrong with you. Can't the so called "progressive" left come up with a better spokesperson?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

Jaze, I really like Hillary Clinton, but I'm amazed at how much hatred she engenders. I can't imagine that such a hated person could serve to unite this country.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM

We had sort of a tacit understanding prior to the election that there would be no gloating, regardless of who won. I have seen very little of it too.

Too bad we didn't include whining. I've seen a lot of that.

The election is over. Why don't we argue about something else?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM

Joe, I am with you on this. I have had the pleasure of meeting Hillary on several occasions. She is intense, and extremely intelligent. She has been praised on both sides of the aisle for her ability to create consensus and work with all comers. Four years is a long time. Let's see what she can do. I am pulling for her.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:37 PM

I agree Guest, we have no choice but to agree to disagree. I doubt we will stay out of each others way though!!

Seriously, you may not wish to believe it, but I do see many of your points. I think it is very important to have progressive ideas brought forth. You made a good point about Nader bringing issues to the table, and that is the role of progressives. It will always be the Republicans or Democrats who bring the issues to fruition.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:52 PM

DougR - Lets argue about the war in Iraq.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 09:12 PM

Guest, Clint Keller:

Boy you don't know jack. Fundamentalist Christians have no problem with Jews. Tthey certainly hate Moslems more than Jews.

Fundamentalist Christians are some of Israel's finest supporters.

Maybe it's you that has a problem with Jews.

Frank: wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Over it, my ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Spock
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 09:45 PM

Frank and the others still refuse to believe they did anything wrong.

Therefore they are doomed to failure.

How can 55 million humans be so devoid of intelligence?

Spock Here

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:04 PM

Martin -

The operative word here is "hate". Fundamentalist Christians and Jews (according to you) are bound together by a common hatred. I certainly wouldn't brag about such a negative bond.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:08 PM

Jews DO NOT hate Moslems- We just object to being killed by them, because of our religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM

But...but...but...hate is also what bound the Anybody But Bushies to Bush! Where would politics be without hate?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:09 AM

"Boy you don't know jack. Fundamentalist Christians have no problem with Jews. Tthey certainly hate Moslems more than Jews.

Fundamentalist Christians are some of Israel's finest supporters."

Last time I talked with Jack Fundamentalist, he knew that the Jews killed his Lord. Like (I believe) Mel Gibson's old daddy knows. Mel himself is evasive.

And the Fundies want to get all the Jews to Israel to fulfill the supposed Prophecy and bring on Armageddon and the Rapture, not out of any fondness for the people or the religion.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

And I've got no problem with Jews; just bringing you the news, but I somehow expected you to say that.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Spock
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:23 AM

The Idea that the Hebrews terminated Jesis Christ dates back to the Klu Klux Klan era of human history.

It is unusual to find a modern day human that still accepts this as an actual fact.

Spock here

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:17 PM

"The Idea that the Hebrews terminated Jesis Christ dates back to the Klu Klux Klan era of human history."

Dates back way farther than that-- see Hugh of Lincoln.

"It is unusual to find a modern day human that still accepts this as an actual fact."

Of course: it's relatively unusual to find a modern day human that still accepts many of the fundamentalist beliefs: the fundies are still a minority. But an influential and growing minority. And don't kid yourself; the main criticisms of Mel Gibson's "Passion" were its sadism and promotiion of the "Christ-killer" stereotype. Whether the criticisms were true or not, they show you that it's still a concern.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

The Jews killed Christ is a belief that continues to rear its ugly head. If you took a poll of Americans, I think you would find a very large percentage of people who believe this.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 02:46 PM

There were some who didn't get over it this week:

New York Daily News
Kills self at Ground Zero in protest

Sunday, November 7th, 2004

A Georgia man fatally shot himself at Ground Zero, and friends believe the tragic suicide was a political protest against President Bush's reelection and the war in Iraq. The body of Andrew Veal, 25, a university research worker who was engaged to be married, was found on the hallowed ground of the World Trade Center site yesterday morning.

Veal didn't leave a note, but those who knew the sensitive young man said he sent a grim message by choosing to end his life where almost 3,000 people perished on Sept. 11, 2001. "I'm absolutely sure it's a protest," said Mary Anne Mauney, Veal's supervisor at the University of Georgia survey research lab. "I don't know what made him commit suicide, but where he did it was symbolic."

"I see it as a political statement," agreed co-worker Stacey Sutherland. "He was so opposed to the war."

When Veal failed to show up at work on Wednesday, his pals assumed he was upset that Bush had beaten John Kerry in the race for the White House and was taking a few days off. "We figured he was just devastated," Mauney said. But fears for his safety grew when he didn't returns calls from his mother and his fiancée, an Iowa college student who was supposed to meet him in Seattle this weekend for a family wedding. "We've been trying to reach Andy for a few days, leaving voicemails and messages, but we couldn't get him," said his mother, Sharon Veal. "We were very worried about him."

Late in the week, there was some suggestion Veal might have headed to New York. He called a friend looking for the number of an acquaintance who lives in the city, and told someone else who reached him by phone that he was here, friends said. "When we heard that, we felt hopeful that he was just off someplace, working out whatever he had to," Mauney said.

But hope turned to heartache yesterday around 8 a.m., when a worker at the Millenium Hotel, across from Ground Zero, spotted a figure behind the fence that rings the 16 acres. The hotel alerted Port Authority police, who secure Ground Zero, that someone might be sleeping in the off-limits site, PA spokesman Steve Coleman said. PA investigators were not sure how Veal entered the restricted area, and the incident has prompted the agency to review its security procedures, Coleman said.

Veal's body was found near the Church St. perimeter atop the structure enclosing the 1/9 subway line in The Pit. He had a head wound and cops recovered a shotgun nearby. "Andy was so anti-violence, I can't even see him holding a gun," Sutherland said.

Mauney said that other than the war and the election, she didn't know what might have been troubling Veal. "I told his mother there are some people so sensitive and intelligent and passionate they don't belong in the world the way it is today," she said. "And if this was something he had to do, it was heroic that he chose the World Trade Center."

Not everyone felt the same way.

"Enough people died in here," said Neil Thomas, 56, a visitor from Michigan. "Nobody else needed to die here."

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: DougR
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:33 PM

Sounds to me as though this young man didn't have both oars in the water. It was a terrible thing to do, but since he left no note, his motivation for killing himself is anybody's guess.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:36 PM

I'd say the hysterical fear mongering Anybody But Bushies have blood on their hands for that boys death, and some atoning to do for this suicide. I'm deeply shocked and saddened by this sort of news story, but I guess not so terribly surprised that an obviously unstable, impressionable, sensitive kid like this kid obviously was, could be sucked into the hysterical political rhetoric engaged in by the Anybody But Bush folks.

The irony is, of course, that John Kerry was pro-war, just as Bush was. But that wasn't easy for a lot of impressionable people to see in this election, because the liberal so-called peace movement so quickly capitulated to the Kerry campaign, and remained silent about Kerry's pro-war stance.

No electioneering should ever be taken to the sorts of extremes the Anybody But Bush Kerry camp took this election to, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:46 PM

dianavan, of course your statemnet is as usual based on an empty headed reactionary opinion.

I don't believe a fucking thing you say in other words.

Why don't you take your survey and publish it? As usual, your generalizations to me are one of the laughingstocks of this forum.

In other words, your ass sucks buttermilk.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 05:30 PM

As a Jew, MG, I don't think you can fairly claim to know what the fundamentalist Christian movement believes. Trust me. Dianavan is correct on this one.

Wanna hear the Amish opinion about "the Jews"? It ain't purty.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Spock
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM

Every Human life form is entitled to their own opinion and they have the right to express it.

However they do not have the right to harass or intimidate other Humans because of their opinions. That shows an absence of respect and maturity.

Spock here

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM

And as a non-Jew Ebbie, you are a goyishe kup.

The Amish are quaint, don't you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:51 PM

I certainly do, MG. (Yiddish doesn't scare me, by the way- it's not too different from what the Amish speak. Isn't it nice to know you two have so much in common?)

Incidentally- and more seriously- the Amish are not illiterate. I've never known one who cannot read and write and 'figure'- they simply see no need for their children to go beyond 8th grade; by that time they have learned everything they need to know. After all, they're just going "to be on the farm". And of course, as soon as the girls get married, they have no need for such foolishness anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:01 PM

Precisely why they are completely irrelevant and living in some century past.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM

And the Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

Don't you know?

We control the media and the business world.

We are also the most educated group in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM

"I'd say the hysterical fear mongering Anybody But Bushies have blood on their hands for that boys death, and some atoning to do for this suicide."

GUEST, you are a real sick piece of work. You'd blame the Democrats for bad weather.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:28 PM

Not even as a joke, Martin.

In my third year of university I was in a class with about 20 other would-be teachers. The Name Jim Keegstra came up (it's a long story, but basically he was a 'history' teacher who was teaching kids that the holocaust was exaggerated. It took four years for him to lose his teaching license). I remarked that the Gov't of Alberta had dragged its feet to do with his dismissal and the subsequent disciplinary action. A gal in the class who was abot 15 years my junior said, "But you have to remember, Jim Keegstra had very powerful groups against him. Groups that control the media and have lots of money." Her reference was to and about Jews. I was so fu#kin' angry I just left the room.

Not even as a joke, my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:30 PM

See here, Diogenes.

That is, if your view isn't blocked by your rear flank.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:38 PM

I'm not joking Brucie. That gal in your class unfortunately was influenced by that moron teacher. Others probably, also.

Without all that education, without the money and power that was earned, there would be plenty more like your Mr. Keegstra.

The ADL and JDL aren't backed by storeclerks at the supermarket or Wal-Mart, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:52 PM

True.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:32 PM

GUEST, you really are a sicko. To suggest those that wanted Bush out are to blame for a person who was unbalanced enough to take his own life takes the cake. It really demonstrates how unbalanced you are. And bitter.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:45 PM

Thanks Mick and Diogenes; that particular guest is a real sewer rat.

Once the ill-considered "war" of Bush's was begun NO candidate was going to be able to maintain an anti-war stance without the Bush-camp and ultra-conservative rhetoric glowing red hot about not supporting the troops, etc., but as we saw last week, there are a lot of gullible Americans who belive it. A real knee-jerk reaction on the part of Bush and his cronies part to defend an indefensible act. Regardless of the private stance any of these candidates may have held, the public face has to be to support the (impressed-labor) troops until they can get them the hell out of Iraq, where they never belonged in the first place.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Homey
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 01:16 AM

You're the kind of person you meet at certain dismal, Kerry rallys
Center of a crowd, talking much too loud, running up and down the alleys
Well, it seems to me that you have seen too much in too few years
And though you've tried you just can't hide your eyes are edged with liberal tears

You better stop, look around
Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes
Here comes your Democratic nervous breakdown

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:58 AM

Support the troops slaughter of innocent human beings SRS? No thanks. We've heard too much from you war apologists.

US out of Iraq NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Topper
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:17 AM

SRS is a terrorist sympathizer. It's killing our troops. He is on the wrong side.

Cosmo Topper

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:18 AM

I think that demoncrats around the country need to rescue their party from the California/NY/Massachusets wing of the party.   As long as the "coasts" dominate the party, they will lose touch and lose elections.

Hillary is a continuation of that thinking.    4 years is a long time and anything can happen.   Given the conditions today, Hillary cannot win as whe will not get any red states that Kerry did not get.

Better choices for Democrats would be Bill Richardson or Evan Bythe. Both attract a different portion of the population and are not tied to the coasts.   Both have relatively moderate positions.

The problem is that the Clintons run the party and will not give up control.   If I were a democrat I would be furious.    They keep getting richer and the party keeps getting poorer.   That should be the fight in the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Johnjohn
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:27 AM

The best choice for the Democrats would be to enter rehab.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Aashir
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:09 AM

Martin, place your circumcised penis in your hand and shove it up your arse. I have no problem with the Jewish people, except maybe YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:25 AM

Look at GUEST, signing on as different names and talking amongst himself. He can't think and he sure as hell can't read, under any disguise. Your tone is nasty and your demeanor is stupid. You are the junk yard dogs of Mudcat, and are given as much respect as you are due.

Getting our people out of Iraq is crucial. Getting out of Iraq without torching the whole place so the Iraqi civilians have a place to live is also our responsibility since we started the damned mess to begin with. When it was first proposed the Democrats certainly unwisely buckled under to Bush's charge of "unpatriotic" anytime someone tried to speak against what he wanted to do. I resent their reliance on the "polls" instead of their own common sense. But now that Bush has started this war, they see the responsibility of trying to get as many of our troops out alive as possible, and leaving as many Iraqis alive as possible. That's a difficult task, and until they were assured of getting into office, and getting their hands on the controls of the juggernaut that Bush set into motion, you weren't going to hear any legitimate military strategy bandied about in the press.

Fallujah will be today what Hamburger Hill was in 1969.

GUEST, get your head out of your ass and learn to read--and even more importantly, learn to think.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

dianavan; ok. Want to include Afghanstan too?

Larry K.: excellent thoughts (8 November 9:18 A.M.)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM

Guest, Aashir what's on today's menu for you?

Strap-on dynamite or a strap-on dildo?

You are a moron who lives under a rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Topper
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:29 PM

SRS: There are several guests here.

You are the only one allowed to have an opinion here because you are right and others are wrong. You show no respect for the opinions of others because they have their head up their ass.

It is my opinion that you and the others protesting the war on terrorism to happen because you want the US to fail in Iraq. That would make the anti-war protesters feel good. That good feeling will come at the expense of many more lives being lost than will be lost in the war.

The battle for Fallujah is pivotal because it is the battle that never happened in Baghdad. It will be down hill from there.

Cos

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:44 PM

Yes, I'll raise my hand here. I want to see the US lose in Iraq. I want to see the country returned to the Iraqis, I want to see Halliburton, Bechtel, and the rest of the US/Brit oil oligarchy kicked the hell out of Iraq's oil fields, and I want Iraqis to sort out the governance of their nation on their own, just like in a REAL democracy!

US LOSE AND GET OUT OF IRAQ! US LOSE AND GET OUT OF IRAQ! US LOSE AND GET OUT OF IRAQ!

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:49 PM

Lose, schmooze. Do the fu#kin' job and leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM

Pardon me: Define the job, do the fu#kin' job and leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:52 PM

The job: secure the oil fields, and loot them.

I'd really prefer it if we'd just leave and without their oil, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:01 PM

The Clintons getting richer? You talk as if this were the Bush clan kind of money. The Clintons have only recently been in a position where they could earn subtantial incomes, and about time. Clinton passed the pay raise for the president, knowing full well that he wouldn't benefit from it (he got $200,000 a year, Bush gets considerably more). With all of the Whitewater stuff that Kenneth Starr visited upon them, they were struggling to pay the legal bills. Hillary was able to accept a big fee for her book before she took office, but now she's restricted on her earnings. Bill will be in the position to pull down the big bucks now, without the conflict of interest and outside income limits.

That's Evan Bayh (pronounced "Buy"). His father was Birch Bayh (always easy for anyone from Northwestern Washington to remember!)

Don't be fooled by the big red swath down the middle of the country. Most of those are low population density states. The coasts are critical to winning an election. Florida and Virginia could have pulled it off if they'd gone for Kerry.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM

GUEST of Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:44 PM

You are perfect example of a Liberal democrat having a nervous breakdown.

You are really a pretty piss poor American. And if you are not an American, you are just a pretty piss poor excuse of a person.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:01 PM

Martin:

Your record on insight and compassion and upholding the best American values qualifies you to speak -- not!! You have heaped abuse time after time on those who did not deserve it, as well as some who did, and you have exalted antagonism and verbal brutality as a high virtue. You have consistently and repeatedly degraded the quality of conversations by resorting to boastful obscenity as a crude and abrasive substitute for communication. In doing so you have repeatedly lowered the tone of this forum and offered to it the very worst example of American values at work.

You have no sense of shame, because you are so wrapped up in being right. But if you had one, shame would be appropriate for you. The time-honored American virtue of humility in strength, one which we have shown at the best of times, is an empty concept to you.

You are not fit to speak for American citizenry. You speak more for the worst of our weakest and most reactionary brutes.

The truly lasting, truly transcendant and truly great elements of America will not truck with brutality because they see through it, right down to the ugly black coal it calls a soul.

Good luck recovering your selfhood, Martin. Yer gonna need it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:45 AM

Amos, it's a riot to yank your chain!

You are even a better example of a Liberal Democrat nervous breakdown.

You take yourself way too seriously and this forum is just not about you and your way of thinking. The tone of this forum is just not YOUR tone, Amos. It's whatever tone a poster wants to make it.

What did you do with your very short absence Amos? clean out the basement? Watch TVLand? Wackoff to a Playboy issue? work on your psoraisis?

Go pick your nose. I believe it is you who are so wrapped up in being right. People CAN be happy without constantly analyzing what comes out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:42 PM

There is no breakdown. There is a reinforcement of Liberal values as a result of this election. We realize that we need to make our message more clear.
But we are getting stronger. There are two Americas right now. It is a cultural civil war that's going on. Half of the country may be in denial about this but there is not a blanket cooperation with George W. Putsch.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:49 PM

Frank,

You spoke sensibly there up until you referred to our president's name.

Then again, your anger came out. Brush up on your Yiddish. I do believe you meant to say putz.

I wholeheartedly agree about the differences in culture and thinking here.

Like any compromise, it's going to be a meet in the middle. Your biggest worry should not be about Bush. He's in and you can cry foul from here to Hammond, Indiana and no one will listen. It's who's next? can they convince both sides?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:38 PM

SRS: your post at 11:01 Nov. 8: THe dog would have caught the rabbit IF it hadn't stopped to pee.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

George W Putz. Hmmmmm. Has a nice ring to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: pdq
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:55 PM

Ebbie - "putz" is also slang for "leader". Get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

Hmmm. Which meaning are YOU giving it, pdq?

putz    ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pts)
n.
Slang. A fool; an idiot.
Vulgar Slang. A penis.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: jaze
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:13 PM

Martin, are we to believe all the hateful things you say to people are a joke? Tongue in cheek?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:51 PM

What he says is hardly a joke. What he is, however, is



another story.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 09:37 PM

Martin:

Explain, if you would, why it is so attractive to you to demean human beings, communicate in abusive ways and make nothing out of people. This isn't me having a nervous breakdown of any kind. This is me asking you, as a human, why you wish to hurt, abrade, assault or insult or nullify other people. It isn't about having a good joke or pulling a chain, either. (Don't even try that greasy rationalization, you know better!).

Thanks for a real answer, if you have one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 09:58 PM

Amos,

Perhaps you need a mirror- all that you have accused Martin of I have observed in your various rants against those that disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:13 PM

Ah, of course. The bearded one enters the fray. Amos is generally civil to those he disagrees with, BB, but apparently you haven't noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,of Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:44 PM
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:06 AM

I am just another terrorist playing headgames with the filthy infidels.
Praise Allah

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:13 AM

From The Nation, Editorial, November 22, 2004:

The Democratic Party is not the only vehicle for change. Historically, that party's finest moments have come when it was pushed into action from outside by popular movements, from the labor movement to the civil rights movement to the women's movement to the gay rights movement. Such movements--independent of the Democratic Party but powerfully influencing it -- must foster and increase their strength. The Nation will support these movements.

We must all stand and fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Howdy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:19 AM

You forgot the bowel movements Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:20 AM

Martin,

I'd like to clarify one thing: the GUEST who kept screaming that the US should lose is not in fact a liberal democrat having a nervous breakdown. He/she has been very clear on this thread and elsewhere that he/she hates the Democrats, hates liberals and everything they stand for. He/she calls him/herself a "progressive" and is left of Democrat, left of Liberal, perhaps socialist/communist/anarchist, etc.

And he's been having this nervous breakdown since about the time Kerry got the nomination...

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:58 PM

Nerd, I've kind of noticed that all along, but I consider it kind of a guilt by assoiation thing.

this moron Guest is so far left that he is almost just to the right of you already. I mean, how many steps can you take to the left until you have gone around the world and are back where you started?

He is what I think you would call a radical's radical.

I call him an idiot.

Amos, Beardedbruce said it all so elequently. You are going to have to deal with the fact that people like me disagree with just about everything you say and how serious you take yourself as the gospel of the world, and actually have fun doing it while rolling my eyes in amazement at you.

You rant. I poke. I laugh. Welcome to Mudcat!

That's a real answer. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 05:52 AM

APPLE VALLEY, Minnesota (AP) -- Three high school students, one allegedly armed with a bat, were charged with attacking a pro-President Bush classmate after he reportedly said only gays would support Sen. John Kerry.

"It's a good thing to see young people interested and excited about politics," said Dakota County Attorney James Backstrom. "It's obviously very disturbing to see this kind of violence over it."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/11/11/school.fight.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM

Yes, I'm the guest so many of you keep going on about.

Yes, I stand proudly and unapologetically to the left of liberals on the political spectrum.

Especially the Mudcat Democratic party liberals whom, like Bill Clinton, are politically conservative enough "centrists" to be southern Republicans, pragmatically speaking. They remain Democrats in name only due to their tribal loyalties, not their place on the political spectrum.

I do have utter contempt for gnuine liberals though, have all my life.

I am not officially a socialist, but I believe there is much the US could learn from socialist governments as are found in Sweden, Denmark, etc. I would like to see the US adopt a hybridized form of capitalism and socialism, and learn to mind it's own business, instead of imposing it on other nations. In my experience, capitalist bureaucratic governments are no more effective, productive, etc. than socialist bureaucratic governments in providing for the general welfare of the people. In fact, strong arguments can be made at this point (and I make them often) that capitalist bureaucracies do a pretty poor job of caring for their minions, compared to the nations with some hybridized system that incorporates both capitalism and socialism.

That hardly justifies me being labelled mentally ill or of having a nervous breakdown, no matter how crazy the bleedin' liberals make me.

I have been talking a lot in recent weeks about the extreme anger and hatred surrounding this election, especially among Kerry supporters, both here in the forum, and in my 3D life here in Minnesota.

The above article cited by beardedbruce, along with the Kerry supporter who committed suicide at Ground Zero, just serve to illustrate my point. It is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

But you are not happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM

Sorry, I also meant to mention that while I am not an anarchist myself, I have no problem with anarchism and anarchists, and have worked in many a political coalition with them over the years.

I find the fear and hate mongering done today to demonize progressives, liberals, and anarchists especially, to be no different than the 50s McCarthyism.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

OK, let's say I bought that self serving load of shit (which I don't), then how is it that a good socialist like yourself would promote a man who was a capitalist of the first order, a union buster, and a liar? That isn't demonization, that is just a question based on fact. You are shallow, and have a martyr complex. Like most folks that are afflicted with your condition, you are intelligent. But you are a phoney.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:24 PM

So why keep on posting as GUEST without any label?

There have been all kinds of GUESTs without labels here, some of them with political views further to the right than yours are to the left. And in fcat to expect people to apply techniques of linguistic analysis and telepathy to work out which one it is in any instance displays a kind of arrogance that I've generally come across in people from the far right.

There has to be some kind of reason - the one that sometimes gets given seems to be "because it's allowed", but that isn't any kind of reason. There's no law against standing on my head, but that's not a reason for doing it. And "my reasons are none of your business" isn't a reason either, it's just a way of changing the subject. I'm not suggesting you should use anything that might identify you - after all, very few of us here do that. Keep your mask on, by all means, but why not use one that enables people to distinguish you from other people in masks?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

No, Martin. It isn't just me. In general, I try to be civil. I have been hot-headed about Iraq, and about Mister Bush, but that is not jsut my social style, it is a protestaion at a deep level against murder being committed.

For the most part I do not intend, like you, to be hurtful.

And BBruce, you and I have had plenty of disagreements, not about your conservatism as such, but about the actions of people and analysis of events outside this forum. If I have stepped on your toes, well, please accept my apologies.

Martin, I am nopt going to introvert on your snide superiority. Your attitude seems to be that you can freely use harmful and abusive language because you find people's reactions entertaining.

This reminds me of a movie I recently saw in which a small boy takes delight in the pain and travail of ants on whom he has poured hot candle wax.

Isn't it just a little disgusting to seek to cause pain, and delight in doing so?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM

Amos, you really ought to consider what kind of movies you are watching.

I, myself, am much more discerning.

If I am causing you pain, bud, you have a real problem that you should find a doctor with a nice comfortable couch and a nice fresh prescription tablet.

You dish it out, but you can't take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

You miss the point. You aren't causing me pain. But you seem to enjoy an abusive style of communication, making insults out of anyy communication.

I don't dish out that kind of blunt abusive crap, although I do get sarcastic.

My question is, why do you do it?

You still don't want to face that one, and I guess you won't.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 06:44 PM

Is it really worth trading posts with **, Amos. He's specifically boasted several times that ** doesn't actually exist, but is just a made up character, for playing around with on the net. Much better surely to let him play with himself, and treat the posts as a kind of static.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 09:57 PM

Don't let Marty wind you up, Amos. Consider the source. Just remember, he thinks that Bush sits at the Right Hand of God, and not only does he shop at Wal-Mart, he brags about it.

I've learned to treat him like static on the radio. It's a general annoyance, I can't really do anything about it, and it contains no worthwhile information, so I just try to ignore it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM

Excellent advice, Don. I call it putting posters in my psychic killfile. All the men between my last Guest post 12 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM are in my psychic killfile, and I no longer respond to anything they write. Ever. New leaf I turned over on election day. It's turned off the static for me completely, making my Mudcat experience much more enjoyable.

I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but it has been working really well for me. So I highly recommend your recommendation to tune out the posters that bother you highly!

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

Actually, GUEST, that's not true. What you do is read the posts and then reply to them by using other posts. It kind of makes me laugh. But that is OK. I actually enjoy the new relationship because it allows me to do what I asked that we do at least 4 times. It allows a discussion of the issues without the invective. And it allows a discussion of other things we have a common interest in, such as Great Lakes shipwrecks.

Works pretty good, and it is nice to be able to see your intellect without the nastiness.

But I do wish you would answer the questions about Nader and how you could support him. You have been ducking that since I first raised it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM

Don Firth, you say that the 'evangelicals' Nonsense! America, as we know it, won. Of all the folks I know who voted for the President -and they far outnumbered those voting for the other guy- not one of them could be remotely classified as evangelical, and I, myself, am Jewish. There are still some of out there who believe that the Feral (er, federal) government should stay out of the way of things better handled at the state and/or local level.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM

"All the men between my last Guest post 12 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM are in my psychic killfile, and I no longer respond to anything they write."

But how can you get anything in between a single post?

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

They certainly trumped the wishes of those who wish the federal govt. would spend tax money on the citizenry at home and not on policing the world. Let Europe pay for its own milatary, and get the hell out of Iraq. Spend tax dollars to explore alternative fuel solutions instead of colonizing the middle east. Whoever "they" were who returned Bush to the White House, they can't see past the smoke screen that Bush and his pals have kept in place since he first ran for office.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:09 PM

Doug, the election is far from over. George was elected on the slimmest margin in American history. Even Wilson in 1919 with 3 1/2% Bush with less.
There are also many who are hopping mad that this election might have been suppressed and stolen.

Guest, you are a divider and not a uniter. You are attacking people who could find common ground with you. You are far too self-important for anyone to want to follow you. Stick to the issues and save your insults.
You'll have more traction.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:59 AM

Frank, the election is over, Bush won and he will be president for the next 4 years and 2 months.

The next election, which will feature 2 new candidates and will be debated about issues which as of yet are unkown is probably about 3 1/2 years away from really heating up.

I hope that I've made that clear enough for you to understand and digest. Most third graders understand that.

Amos, I miss no point. You are an obsessive lunatic. That's my point.

Don Firth, I do not think that Bush sits at the right hand of God but I do believe you can really stink up a bathroom, or a web forum for that matter.

As far as shopping at Wal-Mart, I've worked hard at making a living for years with much continuity, which I am sure that you never have done with your limited skills. Where and how I spend my money is none of your fucking business, you elitist pig.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 01:35 PM

Jack the Sailor, I owe you an apology. I agree with your post.

Martin Gibson, the so-called Christian fundamentalists have a plan for you.
Jesus is going to come back to convert you and if you don't, they have a spot in Hell for you.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 01:59 PM

John on the Sunset Coast, I don't know about the people you know who voted for Bush, but in the country as a whole, the largest single bloc were evangelical Christians. Falwell fans, adherents to The 700 Club, and overwhelming percentages of people who live in the "Bible Belt." The big issues with them were abortion, stem-cell research, and gay marriage. All you need to do is pay some attention to what's going on in the real world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:18 PM

The Bush election - if, and only, if it was a legitmate one- was brought about by their hitting people on so many different levels. All of them based on fear, imo. There was not one issue that had to do with creating a brighter future or a better country.

The other day a young man -41- and I got to talking about travel and other things, nothing political. As he was preparing to leave, he saw my copy of Kitty Kelley's book The Bush Dynasty and picked it up. I said, Do you want to borrow it? I'm finished with it.

He said, Sure. I'll take it on vacation with me. Is it good?

I said, I feel that I know the people better.

He said, OK. I voted for him.

He's going to get a shock.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:57 PM

Amos, I miss no point. You are an obsessive lunatic. That's my point.


You are mistaken on both counts. I am occasionally very persistant, but I am not obsessive, except sometimes about those of better gender than mine. And I am not a lunatic, although I am sometimes a tad eccentric.

And you still have not addressed the question of why you enjoy being abusive to other people. Since you have the brains to speak top real issues, why attack people in so nasty a way so often? What does it gain you?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:00 PM

I believe I've found an explanation for the existence of Martin Gibson. HERE (courtesy of GUEST who posted this link on another thread).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM

Amos

No, you are wrong.

I don't abuse people.

I DO tell them if I think they are full of shit, which is basically what I am telling you.

If you feel abused because of that, you really should not hang around on web forums.

Don, I looked at the thread youi posted. I would post a link of a gaping asshole and put your name on it to describe you, but I don't believe that I want to spend the time doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM

Jeez! He's like one of these talking dolls. You yank his chain and he has about six responses. He and Winston Rothschild III must have gone to the same career counsellor because they both seem to be obsessed with the kind of same thing.   

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

Who gives a flying fuck about some cocksucker named Winston Rothschild III?

LOL how you keep coming back for more after you make such a fuss out of tuning me out.

You are very weird, Don. Truly very hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:00 PM

Martin:

Like many obsessive abusers, it isn't real to you that what you do is abusive, and I can onljy surmise that is because you are stuck in the horrible experiences that incite you to do so. Let me just assure you that telling people they are full of shit, are gaping assholes, and on and on and on is verbal abuse, helps no-one, accomplishes nothing and is harmful to your own psyche, to those who are not thick-skinned enough to recognize what you are doing, and to this community as a whole.

You are an abuser, Martin, and yet I have seen you write so often in ways that were intelligent and positive that it is hard to believe the two of you occupy the same skull. Maybe a heart to heart talk is in order! :)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM

Amos, anyone who disagrees with you or insults you with or without profanity makes you feel abused. Your ego has the consistancy of a banana. People who's ego bruises easy are usually the first to cry abuse. Again, I would just as soon let this "discussion" go, but I do believe that at this point you are obseesing on it and it just might be the most important thing going for you right now.

Calling a spade a spade with colorful language can be interpreted as abuse I suppose.

It's a good excuse to not focus on the real issues that the one who feels abused should really be focusing on. I believe those people really have to deal with their own insecurities, and how to grow some tougher skin for this mean old world.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:08 PM

"telling people they are full of shit, are gaping assholes, and on and on and on is verbal abuse"

That seems pretty obvious. I can't believe there are many people who would disagree with you on that, Amos. Evidently ** has persuaded himself that stuff like that isn't abuse.

It occurs to me to wonder whether this might be somehow related to Tourette's syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:21 PM

Hmmmm. A 'tic' is very common and MG certainly has tics. Even from here, they are almost visible.

"Although the word "involuntary" is used to describe the nature of the tics, this is not entirely accurate. It would not be true to say that people with TS have absolutely no control over their tics, as though it was some type of spasm; rather, a more appropriate term would be "compelling." People with TS feel an irresistable urge to perform their tics, much like the need to scratch a mosquito bite. Some people with TS are able to hold back their tics for up to hours at a time, but this only leads to a stronger outburst of tics once they are finally allowed to be expressed. "

Learn More, MG

Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:54 PM

I get it, Martin. So -- the world being as mean as it is, its a good thing we have a friend like you to break it to us gently? Or to put it another way, it isn't really YOU calling people abusive names, it is the meanness of the world, which you are only passing on as a favor?

How about trying to find ways to encourage poeple rather than abuse them? Not -me, man. I don't give a shit what kind of hot air comes out of your ass, frankly. I've seen a lot worse. But you really do lower the tone around here with your four-letter, six-word debating skills. Why not, yourself, buckle down and hold your position using reaosn instead of hateful language? I know you think you're doing folks a favor by toughening them up, but maybe they'd rather sign up for your therapy knowingly.

A

---

OK, so I suppose that's about enough. How about starting a new thread if you'd like to continue the discussion. Try to be a bit more civil next time.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-