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BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown

Once Famous 05 Nov 04 - 11:39 AM
Joe Offer 05 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM
Stu 05 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM
Big Mick 05 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM
Once Famous 05 Nov 04 - 11:57 AM
Once Famous 05 Nov 04 - 12:08 PM
Chris Green 05 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Topper 05 Nov 04 - 01:22 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Nov 04 - 01:24 PM
Chris Green 05 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Webster 05 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM
GUEST 05 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM
Big Mick 05 Nov 04 - 02:06 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Nov 04 - 02:57 PM
GUEST 05 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Nov 04 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Frank 05 Nov 04 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Larry K 05 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Nov 04 - 04:17 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 04 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 05 Nov 04 - 04:23 PM
Janie 05 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM
GUEST 05 Nov 04 - 05:49 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 04 - 06:06 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM
Nerd 05 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM
GUEST 05 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 04 - 07:14 PM
GUEST 05 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 04 - 08:34 PM
Bobert 05 Nov 04 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Spock 05 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM
Little Hawk 05 Nov 04 - 10:30 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Frank 06 Nov 04 - 01:02 PM
Joe Offer 06 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 06 Nov 04 - 03:44 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM
Nerd 06 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM
jaze 06 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM
Big Mick 06 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM
Joe Offer 06 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM
DougR 06 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM
Big Mick 06 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM

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Subject: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:39 AM

Depression
Anger
crying
Whining
Sour grapes
fingerpointing
no cooperation
In some cases, withdrawal


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM

Didn't the Rolling Stones do a song about that one?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Stu
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

In some cases, withdrawal

But not, unfortuately, from Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM

Sorry Martin, I don't think we are jumping off buildings on this one.   As much as conservatives would love that.   Sure, it isn't a happy time for us, but there are still enough positive signs that liberal voices are being heard again and will be heard from again. I will go out on a limb, just wait for the mid-term elections and unless there is a turnaround, you will see some changes in the makeup of congress and the senate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM

Martin, instead of wasting bandwidth by starting a new thread, why didn't you use one of the myriad of threads that already exist for this? And being as how you have made the allegations, could you cite some examples of this?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:57 AM

Yes, you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:08 PM

I forgot:

denial


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Chris Green
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Actually I think you'll find that's a large river in Egypt. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Topper
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:22 PM

It is a simple, obvious fact that there are more conservatives than liberals.

Evry day the ranks of the liberals shrinks because they turn more radical, offend their own and make them into conservatives.

Liberals are a dying breed.

Cosmo Topper


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:24 PM

55+ million liberals - hardly "dying"


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Chris Green
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM

I agree that liberalism in America appears to be on the decline (from where I am, which is England by the way.) But I don't think it's true that conservatism is on the up. I just think that more and more people are becoming too idle to think for themselves and prefer to be told what to think by unscrupulous politicians who claim to offer a quick fix to a myriad of ills. And just before anyone accuses me of America-bashing this is happening all over the "civilised" world - it's just that it's most noticeable in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Webster
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM

The word liberal, like liberty, derives from the Latin liber ("free"). In religion and politics, to be liberal is to be tolerant or open-minded, to favour freedom over control. In other words, a liberal is someone who adheres to the ideology of liberalism.

In the United States, liberal is sometimes used as an antonym for Conservative or a synonym for left-wing. There, it primarily refers to the New Deal variant of liberalism, emphasizing the positive role of the state. In other countries, liberal may have quite an opposite meaning: for instance, in France a liberal is a right-wing or classical liberal proponent of free markets. Elsewhere a liberal is somewhere between these two positions, or can refer to both. Some would use liberal in the classical liberal meaning of the word, others would prefer the social liberal meaning of the word.

Daniel


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

Assuming everyone who voted for Kerry is a liberal is as ridiculous as saying that everyone who voted for Bush is a conservative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:06 PM

The trouble with this whole hypothesis is that it originates in the premise that the country has spoken and the progressives got whipped. The assumption is that is a repudiation of the progressive agenda. I would suggest that you folks are deluding yourselves, and quite frankly that pleases me. You are guilty of believing your own press, the first sign of a fall.

While I will agree that on certain issues, we alienated the middle, you would consider if you were wise is that this was a race too close to call right up to the end. You would consider that were it not fot the wedge issues, more folks agreed with the progressive agenda of environmental responsibility, a better foreign policy approach, ending the dependence on foreign oil, and a whole host of domestic items, including health care and prescription drugs. To be sure, we on the left must temper the more radically inclined among our ranks, while heeding the real issues they raise.

Go on with the gloating. As a veteran of the political scene, I love it when the opposition believes they have a mandate, and overestimates the political capital they really have.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM

The truth of the matter is that the evangelicals won. Think about that for awhile!

"Don't mourn! Organize!" —Joe Hill

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 02:57 PM

Thanks Don! I was thinking of the Joe Hill quote this morning. Perfect!

I also remembered Lee Hays great line comparing Ronald Reagan to kidney stones - "This too shall pass".

Honestly, I'm not sure if we can blame it on the evangelicals. I think we give them too much credit. Sure they make a huge impact, but I don't think they represent the majority of Americans.

Here is a segment from Maureen Dowd's column that describes some of the new Senators-
"Tom Coburn, the new senator from Oklahoma, has advocated the death penalty for doctors who perform abortions and warned that "the gay agenda" would undermine the country. He also characterized his race as a choice between "good and evil" and said he had heard there was "rampant lesbianism" in Oklahoma schools.

Jim DeMint, the new senator from South Carolina, said during his campaign that he supported a state G.O.P. platform plank banning gays from teaching in public schools. He explained, "I would have given the same answer when asked if a single woman who was pregnant and living with her boyfriend should be hired to teach my third-grade children."

John Thune, who toppled Tom Daschle, is an anti-abortion Christian conservative - or "servant leader," as he was hailed in a campaign ad - who supports constitutional amendments banning flag burning and gay marriage. "

Something is amiss if we feel that these people truly represent the values of America.   There is more to this election. Something just isn't clicking. If my values are wrong and I am supposed to follow these shining examples, then the world is truly coming to an end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

Wrong Don. The neocons won. The petrochemical industry won. Wall Street won. Big media won. Thanks to the Securocrat's Anybody But Bush strategy, that is.

No one in Democratic circles is claiming the progressive agenda needs "toning down" to win in 2008. No one. Quite the contrary, the talk is of why the liberal agenda was and is a lost cause. Why the securocrat wing of the Democratic party needs to be ousted.

Maybe Zell Miller was saying the Democratic wing of the Democratic party needs toning down? I don't know. I never hear those delusional Democratic party voices in my head. I stopped reading Common Dreams, Alter Net, The Nation, and Working for Change months ago, when it became clear they, like moveon.org, were mouthpieces for the Democratic Leadership Council.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:13 PM

Guest- do you have any clue how small of a constituency you are talking about?   What you consider as "progessive" would probably be considered as "radical" to most of us. The far right and the far left are the fringe. Both parties have their share of PROGRESSIVES.

LIBERAL is what is missing in the Democratic Party, not PROGRESSIVE. All social change is the result of LIBERAL thought and action, not progressives or conservatives.

Democrats have been running scared of the word LIBERAL since Reagan and Limbaugh turned it into a four letter word. Since Dukakis, all strong Democratic leaders have been afraid to use the word.   We need to make people realize that liberals are not the communist monsters that the right is trying to paint.

Liberal Democrats have not suffered a nervous breakdown. We've gone through a medical checkup and we have to lose a few pounds and run a few miles each day, but we will be back in shape come 2006 - midterm elections!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:01 PM

Depression.........................over it.
Anger.................................damn right..election was stolen by Republicans
crying..................................fighting
Whining..............................active. Bush built a fire under us.
Sour grapes........................cheating and lying Bush
fingerpointing......................Repubs conducted their whole election on this.
no cooperation....................What a joke. Bush as uniter?
In some cases, withdrawal..Don't bet on it! We're coming back stronger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

Progressives were soundly defeated.   Nader got less than 1% of vote.   Dean and Kucinich were jokes that didn't make it past Iowa.   Kerry abandoned his liberal record to run as a republicrat - a democrat predtending to be a republican.   After all, Kerry became a hawk about Iraq promising to send in 40,000 more soldiers if elected.

Hardly sounds like a progressive to me.   I wish you progressives would run as progressives and liberals instead of trying to pretend your centerists.    You have no soul, sell out all your values, and lose anyway.    At least if you tell people your honest and real positions as progressives, you will lose with dignity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:17 PM

Larry, Larry, Larry. You are confusing progressives with liberals. For shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:18 PM

Not wrong, GUEST.

"The neocons won. The petrochemical industry won. Wall Street won. Big media won."

You're right about that, but the evangelicals came out in force this time and were more than enough to swing the election. They're not the majority by any means, but they're a major force. Their concept of "moral values" is narrowed down to anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research, and anti-gay marriage. The idea that moral values could include such things as care for the environment ("dominion over the earth" means that you take good care of it, you don't dig it up, pave it over, and poison its oceans and atmosphere), care for the poor, the sick, and the oppressed (Matthew 25:35-40), lying to the multitudes ("false witness" on a grand scale), and ordering the killing of thousands of people, not in self-defense, but for geopolitical domination. When it comes to moral values, "bedroom morality" is just about all that counts with these people.

Karl Rove knows how to play them like a ukulele. Example: Bush wasn't doing very well in his run for governor of Texas against Ann Richards, one of the most popular governors of all time, until Karl Rove stated sending people out on Sundays to church parking lots to stick flyers under peoples' windshield wipers. The flyers claimed that Ann Richards had hired a lot of homosexuals as state civil servants. The hiring policy under Ann Richards had no such policy, but the libel caught on and it was enough to swing the gubernatorial election to Bush. Karl Rove is an assassin in the same mold as Cesare Borgia. But a dagger in the back in a dark alley is considered a bit excessive in this modern world. Character assassination works just as well, and it doesn't carry the hazard of getting the perpetrator arrested and tried for murder. Rove is undoubtedly the one who came up with the phrase "flip-flopper," which the Republicans used like a chant, and probably had a lot to do with the "Swift Boat Veterans'" libel. It has his fingerprints all over it. Machiavelli lives, and he works in the White House.

The Democratic Party has moved way the hell and gone away from its traditional position. They got that way through years of 1) being such an amalgam of various liberal and progressive beliefs that, as a political party, they not being all that sure about what they really did believe; and 2) being afraid that they weren't "moderate" enough to win against the Republicans. GUEST, if you could convince me that the Green Party actually has a chance in a future election, then that's probably where I'd put my efforts. Until then, I'll do my damnedest to change the Democratic Party. And incidentally, I am not a member of the Democratic Party. I'm not a member of any political party.

Sometimes, GUEST, I think your hatred of the Democratic Party verges on the pathological.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:23 PM

Looks like you're another sore winner, Martin.

On second thought, maybe you're right to be sore: your new masters, those evangelical Christian fundamentalists, don't much like Jews.

...They came for the liberals but I wasn't a liberal so I said nothing...

a little paraphrase for you, there.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Janie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

I suggest an admittedly heavy read "The Battle for God" by Karen Armstrong. A very irudite exploration of the rise of postmodern fundamentalism among the major monotheistic religions.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:49 PM

The numbers of actual voters from Tuesday aren't solid yet, but roughly looked like this:

Of the 100% of eligible US voters:

Bush got 30%
Kerry got 27%

The remaining 43-45% of eligible voters largely didn't vote. They are the majority, and the majority doesn't support either party enough to vote for them, now do they?

So the claim that the number of progressives in the US is infintessimally small is nothing more than a specious claim, made by people with political interests in seeing the progressive constituency marginalized and ignored by the mainstream. That is why polls never even ask if people consider themselves progressives.

Now, if we can accept that evangelical Christians make up at least one-fifth of the actual voters (which gets diluted when you put that number up against the number of eligible voters), why is it so impossible to conceive that there may very well be at least as large a group of progressives out there in eligible voterland?

Answer, Ron, is you can't think your way out of the mainstream box. Which of course, has nothing to do with the actual numbers of progressives in this country one iota. Because you are a party regular Ron, you likely rarely come in contact with many progressives. Most of them fled the party after Reagan won.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:06 PM

You might also want to take a look at Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture by Bishop John Shelby Spong, (here).   

Bishop Spong's knowledge of the Bible is second to none, and his theology is rock-solid. This book is a very interesting read, and it can arm you with a lot of powerful information for knock-down-drag-out arguments with the religiously narrow-minded. Sometimes you can tell a lot about a person by taking a good look at those who hate his guts. Put "Bishop Spong" into google and take a good look at what shows up. A long list of really savage attacks by the "Fundies".

There are few people in the world the Fundies hate worse than someone who knows more about the Bible than they do—which is not that difficult, really—and points out where they are dead wrong.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

GUEST, it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the eligible voters who didn't bother to vote were all disenchanted progressives. More likely, they were just bloody apathetic, not into thinking much beyond what's on TV tonight, especially when voting involves getting up off their butts to go stand in line somewhere.

"They're apathetic because they're not being offered a genuine progressive alternative," you say? No, if they did go out and vote, the numbers would be larger, but the overall outcome would quite probably be the same.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM

So what GUEST is saying is:

If the so-called progressives stopped whining and instead all organized together and voted for a single candidate, that candidate would win.

Great, GUEST. I'm all for it.

Now do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

Oh come on, you know full well I wasn't claiming that they were all progressives. What I said is there is no way of proving that the progressive constituency in this nation is minute, and that Ron was making a specious claim by saying so.

What I was doing was, first, to show the reality of the % of all eligible voters who actually voted for Bush. Like Reagan and Clinton after him, that number is suprisingly small, and definitely smaller than the number of people who voted for neither Democratic or Republican candidates.

"They're apathetic because they're not being offered a genuine progressive alternative," you say?"

I said no such thing Don. You are having an imaginary conversation with me, strictly on your own.

Thank you Nerd, for being more clear than I was. Yes, I am saying that with some serious work, either a progressive Democrat or an independent candidate (not a Green Party candidate) like Nader, could unite enough of the progressive left with the traditional Democratic center-left party regulars, and elect a progressive president. Just as likely a scenario as Bushie boy getting in, if you look at the Republican playbook! What I'm saying is, by building coalitions, it could be done within 2, maybe 3 presidential election cycles. Maybe less, depending on how dire things get under Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:14 PM

Okay, GUEST. Now, your last paragraph just above I agree with.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

You know, you Anybody But Bushies gotta get on board. Either you want to win, and move the US and world towards a future where we might begin to work on some of the damage done by 35+ years of the Republican/Republicrat Balkanization of US political life, or you want to keep to the status quo, so you can keep voting for "safe" securocrat Democratic party hacks, like Kerry.

I'm not a Democrat, so it ain't my job to bust in on their party. I'm out here, working in coalition with others to present a united front, cuz that's what we need to win and get the crooks out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:34 PM

"Anybody but Bush" was the logical way to go this time around. No one but Kerry stood any kind of chance of beating Bush, and howl all you want, but he wouldn't have done anywhere as much damage as Bush is going to do for the next four years, so I have no regrets at the moment, other than that Bush won. BUT--as Kerry kept saying, "We can do better!" We can indeed.

I'm all for coalition-building, GUEST. Keep me posted.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:02 PM

Okay, folks, a little reason here...

If people want think of Kerry as a "liberal" then fine. He ain't.

But my point is that, liberal or not, had he won he would soon be the owner of a lousy used war. Now I don't think that would be a very good thing fir a liberal to have to be straped with. And since the Iraq war is a quagmire which will be followed by a civil war when the US leaves, then why waste any politcial credit, or wnatever Bush calls it, attaching the term "liberal" to this mess???

What happened in the election was good for two reasons:

1. It's still the neocons war in Iraq.

2. The Dems lost and will now have to do some serious soul searching as to why? (Like, duhhh, Bobert! Ya think it was because Kerry's positions were nuhtin' more than Bush-Lite?)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Spock
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM

The Liberals/Democrats will never figure out what they did wrong. Mainly because they refuse to believe they did anything wrong.

They blame it on others or claim they did not loose after all.

They will get more beligerant and loose more ground in the next election unless they fess up and take the blame for losing.

Blunder away. It is quite entertaining and illogical.

Spock Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:30 PM

Don't be silly. I feel great today, and I am thoroughly enjoying watching this whole process as the $y$tem slowly lurches from one madness to another, exposing itself to more and more people's awareness in the process.

Life is good, Martin. I'm glad I'm here to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

You nailed it Spock! When you look up this thread and read the posts of the Kerry supporters, they are still in complete denial. They certainly don't think they need the progressives, that's for sure!

So, as I have these discussions as to whether we should work with the Democratic party, or just abandon them to themselves and start up the new Progressive Party, I'm leaning towards the latter. That's what worked to bring the last Gilded Age to a close, which eventually brought in FDR. I don't know why Democrats can't see the forest for the trees, except that their party benefits just as much as the Republicans from the political graft and corruption, so long as the Dems are willing to settle down and accept minority party status like they were in the last Gilded Age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

At least the people who voted for Kerry knew the issues. The people who voted for Bush thought they were voting against Saddam Hussien getting nuclear weapons and giving them to terrorists who would terrorize them into marrying their brothers instead of their sisters.

When what they were voting for was to give their tax dollars to the "liberal" elite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:02 PM

Guest Spock says:
"The Liberals/Democrats will never figure out what they did wrong. Mainly because they refuse to believe they did anything wrong."

I don't agree with this. I think one thing that came out is that us Liberal/Democrats were not vocal enough about the real things we stand for such as equality for all regardless of race or economic standing, the compassion for the poor and disenfranchised, the co-opting of "morality" by the Karl Rovian corporate criminals and tax evaders while screwing the poor muddled-headed Fascist Right-wing Religious nuts who think that a Theocratic rather than a Democratic government is more in line with their "God". Most of the time the people that quote what Kerry said got their information from mainstream media which is no longer to be trusted as a source for authentic news. There was clearly a corporate Right-wing bias by ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and penultimately by Fox as well as most of the newspapers in the US who repeated the Republican lies so frequently that the people bought them. Kerry actually said more in his speeches than got reported on the media. I believe that us Liberals did plenty wrong and we will correct many of these things during the next four years.

Jack the Sailor,
"When what they were voting for was to give their tax dollars to the "liberal" elite. "

Actually Jack, they voted to give their tax dollars to a failed war in Iraq, a bailout for corporate criminals, and the "elite" consists of those special interests who now run our country and have the blessing of tax evasion dispensed by the Bush Crime Family.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

Larry K said something above, and I agree with it:
    Kerry abandoned his liberal record to run as a republicrat - a democrat predtending to be a republican.   After all, Kerry became a hawk about Iraq promising to send in 40,000 more soldiers if elected
I think Bill Clinton did the same thing. Bill privatized me out of my government career. I thought it was Republicans who were the ones who believed in privatization.

But that's another matter. I have to say that this wasn't much of an election for me, because neither major party offered a candidate that people could really believe in. I could believe in Colin Powell, and I think much of the country could. I believe in MMario Cuomo and Hilary Clinton - but I'm afraid much of the country couldn't stomach them. I think I and much of the country could believe in John McCain, but I'm not sure.

I don't think most Republicans believe in George W., but he's the guy they got stuck with. Same with Kerry and the Democrats. It's a shame we always seem to end up with such mediocrity - or worse.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM

"It's a shame we always seem to end up with such mediocrity - or worse."

Conservative commentator and historian for Now with Bill Moyers made that very point last night too. He says the "lesser of two evils" reality is the rut the country has been stuck in for 30 years. Of course, he is closer to Nader's position about the influences of corruption on the American political process, but he traces the oligarchy (including the Bush dynasty) in his book "Wealth and Democracy". I love the guy, and will miss him as a commentator on NOW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:44 PM

Guest, you are still fooling yourself.   You have not shown how all the people who did not vote are truly "progressive". You can call me a "party regular" if you like, but again you are just making wild claims without any evidence. The problem with the far left is that the world you think you are living in does not center around you. You are just as guilty as those you accuse - you simply shut out anyone that disagrees with you as you have shown time and time again on these threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM

OK Ron. Then maybe we should just agree to disagree, and stay out of each other's way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Nerd
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

That ain't Spock. Spock can spell!


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

"Actually Jack, they voted to give their tax dollars to a failed war in Iraq, a bailout for corporate criminals, and the "elite" consists of those special interests who now run our country and have the blessing of tax evasion dispensed by the Bush Crime Family."

Actually, that's exactly what I meant by the "liberal" elite. I was referring to the fact that although the Rovians have convinced half the country that their problems are those fat cats who went to Yale and Harvard and who dominate the Corporate media, the financial industry and government, that that establishment in it purest form is exactly who they voted to enrich.

Hence the quotes I put around "liberal".


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: jaze
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM

I don't believe Hillary Clinton is a lost cause. What do you think she would have to do in the next few years to win over more Americans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM

Die?


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

Once again the GUEST thinks the answer if for us to let him/her just spout off whatever s/he wants in a PUBLIC forum, but we should just stay out of her way. Actually the only way for that to happen is for him/her to quit posting, or for those of us who disagree to quit posting. Neither is a likely outcome. So post away, and we will continue to show what we think is wrong with you. Can't the so called "progressive" left come up with a better spokesperson?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

Jaze, I really like Hillary Clinton, but I'm amazed at how much hatred she engenders. I can't imagine that such a hated person could serve to unite this country.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM

We had sort of a tacit understanding prior to the election that there would be no gloating, regardless of who won. I have seen very little of it too.

Too bad we didn't include whining. I've seen a lot of that.

The election is over. Why don't we argue about something else?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Liberal Democratic nervous breakdown
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM

Joe, I am with you on this. I have had the pleasure of meeting Hillary on several occasions. She is intense, and extremely intelligent. She has been praised on both sides of the aisle for her ability to create consensus and work with all comers. Four years is a long time. Let's see what she can do. I am pulling for her.

All the best,

Mick


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