BS: Falluja

Subject: BS: Falluja
From: Raedwulf
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:29 PM

"But the enemy has got a face. He's called Satan. He lives in Falluja. And we're going to destroy him."

Quote, unquote, from the commanding officer of one of the Marine battalions "at the tip of the spear" in the imminently expected assault of Falluja.

Scary.

Full BBC story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 03:57 PM

In the days leading up to the election, I said the leveling of Falluja would happen within a fortnight of the US elections.

The view from Ivory Coast, Darfur, and Nigeria are equally distressing and depressing, knowing that thousands of peoples' lives are on the verge of extinction.

That's right wing moral values in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Com Seangan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

All is not completely lost. There are still millions of decent people in US who can value human life irrespective of race, creed or social standing. They more than any have a responsibility to restore sanity to their own leaders. And each of us in our own countries can at least make our voices heard with our own pussyfooting sychophants.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM

Yes, but this time we must articulate our vision for the world. Falluja is symbolic of the tragedy of this Administration. I predict abject failure here.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Fallujah is symbolic of the tragedy of the Bush administration, and the Democratic party's failure to act as an opposition party, you mean.

If the god damn Democratic party had done it's job back in October 2002, there wouldn't be a Fallujah today, and the progressive left could be realistically pressuring the United Nations and the Bush administration to take decisive action in Africa, which is currently coming apart at the seams--again, I repeat: Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Darfur, Congo, Ethiopia...Africa is on the verge of a continent-wide bloodbath.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:00 PM

Fallujah is not symbolic of much but a poorly executed war in Iraq. I used to be in favour of this war. I am no lomger. I did want to see Hussein fall. Looking back on a post I made when the US was looking for allies to help with the overthrow of the Iraq government, I noted that I was somewhat ashamed that Canada did not help. I was wrong to have wished we did. That was brought home to me in a roundabout way: the mad cow scare--that was America's revenge on my country for not helping in Iraq this time around. (I noted at the time, parenthetically, that even though we had been part of the UN-sanctioned Gulf War, my country's contribution was not mentioned in the various American-written accounts of that war.) The mad cow scare was America's way to punish the Canadian government and people for its transgression. Then there was SARs. We were punished again. For the record, I have no beef (bad pun) with the American people per se, but the American government can kiss my Royal Canadian Arse. I really hope the day comes when someone in Ottawa has the balls to tell the US to go fuck itself. These people are no longer our friends; at least not those represented by the Bush crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:35 PM

The U.S. administration is nobody's friend.

Saddam did not do this:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/01389.htm

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:09 PM

And how much of what has happened in Fallujah already, and the far worse that is probably to come, has its roots in the massacre carried out there by the US military in April 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: skipy
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:14 PM

There may be a time to hide behing the label "GUEST" this is not one!
Who the hell are you? what are your motivations? Where do you lie in the political spectrum? Just how far up the ladder are you or how far do you think you are ?
Fallujah will happen, it needs to happen, they have been given the option to leave & to negotiate, the gate is still open!
I along with most of the world would be happy to see all the arms laid down & all parties around a table.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:26 PM

From The Observer (a British paper which supported the war, May 4th 2003 Bloodshed and bullets fuel rising hatred of Americans

"...A crowd gathered outside the al-Ani's house last week (April , demanding that the Americans leave the school over the road so that children can return. The military opened fire, killing 13 and wounding some 35; they claimed they were shot at first.

But even if shots were aimed at them, the response was not only into the crowd; they pummelled the street, house by house, with a mighty volley and shot at occupants as they appeared in doorways.

Each of the brothers came out in turn to try and help their families and were each targeted and shot. Walid was killed and the two others wounded, along with their mother, Mufina, and her daughter-in-law, Eptisan al-Ani. In a few minutes, said Eptisan's husband, Muthana, now in the hospital bed opposite his brother, 'our family is destroyed'...

I doubt if any of the American soldiers who will be going in to Fallujah in the next few days will never have heard of this. But the people shooting at them will surely remember.

There are always horrors lying at the roots of horrors. Seedcorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: skipy
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM

There is always hope laying at the roots of hope. Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Sad and Disheartened
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM

Here is a love song for the Iraqis and Americans tonight

WAR
Music/lyrics by DOUGIE MACLEAN

Our voice made silent
our hands made still
But deep and violent wait
the ones who wait to kill

The desert's burning,
their reasons pale
For there's no returning
with some golden holy grail

CHORUS
What have they done?
What have they done?
The blood will run to everyone
Oh what have they done?

Is it for freedom?
Or is it for truth?
That father's fall
and all those young men trade their youth?

Or are they moved by
deception's hand
That rank and reckless
scatters death across the sand?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:14 PM

GUEST, your hate for the Democrats is really scalding your guts, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:18 PM

Could you explain to me why "it needs to happen"? Shock and Awe just didn't sink in far enough? Little Johnny Jihad still not being a good boy?

Fallujah happens. LOL I think I'll start using that instead of Shit Happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:37 PM

No Diogenes, you aren't the last honest man. Get over yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:43 PM

The Falluja Rag


Hey mister Taliban! tally up me grandmas!
Americans come, and this is my home!


Car Bomb! Klashnikov! RPG!
Americans come, and this is my home!
CocaCola! SprawlMart! Democracy!
Americans come, and this is my home!

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:48 PM

How do you know it's the same GUEST, Diogenes? How does GUEST know you are thinking of the same GUEST even?   Was that the same GUEST both times in this thread anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 08:56 PM

Only Max, Joe & the clones know for sure, McGrath...so, maybe Diogenes has friends in high places, hmmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:10 PM

Who was that masked man?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:09 PM

2nd attempt!

The Falluja Rag


Hey mister Taliban! Tally up me grandmas!
Americans come, and they shoot up my home!
Wearing big cowboy boots and bandannas!
Americans come, and they shoot up my home!


Chorus:
Car Bomb! Klashnikov! RPG!
Americans come, and they shoot up my home!
CocaCola! SprawlMart! Democracy!
Americans come, and now got no home!

(Instrumental) O!
Americans come, and they shoot up my home!


Had good job in Iraqui Army!
Americans come, and they shoot up my home!
Army Disbanded, cannot feed family!
Americans come, and they shoot up my home!

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:35 AM

"Fallujah will happen, it needs to happen, they have been given the option to leave & to negotiate, the gate is still open!"

So that's all right then
As long as you tell them you're driving them from their homes before you send in the bombers

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM

Exactly, nick. Fallujah is home to nearly half a million innocent human beings. Where are they while the American bombardments are going on? The firefights? When the tanks come rolling down their streets?

Support the troops slaughtering them? Not in my name.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:08 AM

"Fallujah is home to nearly half a million innocent human beings" The reason you democrats/liberals/progressives/not in my name/move on.org/new demoncrats/and mudcatters continue to lose election after election after election after election is that cannot separte terrorists from innocent human beings.

That is why you must never be allowed to be in charge of the security of the USA.   That is why you will never win an election.

50,000 taliban brutalize 25 million woman/people in Afganastan and you are OK with that.   Sadaam brutalizes/murders/rapes/ 25 million people in Iraq and you are also OK with that.   When the USA gives these people a chance at democracy (you mean that woman actually voted in Afganastan- where was Patty Ireland) you call the USA soldiers terrorists and call the terrorist innocent. What schumucks.

Felluja is happening.   59 million americans gave Bush the Mandate.   500 people in the streets in Oregon is a joke which should be pitied.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:20 AM

Larry, why are the terrorists there? They certainly weren't there before the US invaded. Or did you buy that crap about Iraq being behind 9/11?
As for separating terrorists from innocent human beings, the US military doesn't seem too good at that, judging by its track record so far...

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

The innocent people evacuated. The bad guys stayed. Lets send them to be with Allah and all those virgins. It will be doing them a favor.

Blow 'em away troops!

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

Larry's problem Gervase, isn't that he can't tell the difference between an innocent civilian and a terrorist, it's that he doesn't care what happens to the innocent civilian.

According to Larry, the US now has a mandate to kill them all and let Allah sort them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:38 AM

The innocent people evacuated? And just where are you getting this information from Guest US? Drudge Report?

Half a million people don't just "evacuate". It would create a refugee crisis of epic proportions in a war zone like Fallujah. I think we might of heard about it by now.

I did, however, read that yet another international aid organization for the Iraqi civilians has now been forced out of Iraq, due to the deteriorating security condiditons and increased violence created by the insurgency fighting the US occupation: Doctors Without Borders.

Anyone notice a pattern here? All the aid organizations pull out, and most the news organizations holed up in their hotels in Baghdad, and voila! No witnesses to the American slaughter of Iraqi civilians!

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:51 AM

BTW, as the refugees are streaming out of Fallujah and Ramadi, just what protections do they receive from US troops? Hmmm???

Here is a quote from a recent Detroit Free Press article:

"U.S. planes pounded the city late Friday in what residents called the strongest attacks in months. Residents reached by telephone said the aircraft were striking targets in the central city market as well as neighborhoods in the north, south and east.

That followed five air strikes Thursday night on targets in the city, a sharp escalation from recent days. U.S. officials said the strikes were intended to destroy a weapons cache, a barricade put up by insurgents and an area booby-trapped with homemade bombs.

Much of the town's population has fled, sending a steady stream of refugees toward Baghdad, and some insurgent leaders may have tried to escape amid the fleeing civilians. On Friday, residents said, U.S. planes dropped leaflets urging women and children to leave."

A bit odd, I would say, the "residents" who were reached by phone to comment upon the current wave of US bombings and air strikes, when news reports say residents already have "mostly fled" the city. Interesting. The US has no one on the ground in the city of Fallujah, yet can claim the city is evacuated, at the same time reporters are able to reach residents by phone.

I'm sure the US Marines consider dropping leaflets telling women and children to leave, sufficient notice of their imminent slaughter if they don't. It will be their own damn fault then, right?

Just gets curiouser and curiouser.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM

Wonder what the literacy rate is among the women and children of Fallujah is. It would probably help if they could read those leaflets, wouldn't it? Maybe they can get their terrorist sons, husbands, fathers, and grandfathers they are expected to abandon, to read them the fine print.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Alba
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:08 AM

LarryK if we knew about the inhuman treatment of our fellow World Citizens why did we give the Taliban and Iraq millions of dollars in support prior to September 11th?
Insurgents are people uprising against an occupancy.
I noticed that the Newscasters were flinging in the words "Terrorists in Falluja" the other day when only a week ago these same "terrorists" were being called Insurgents!
Blurring the Line again between the War in Iraq and the War on Terror.


Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:20 AM

Since the U.S. was polite enough to warn the insurgents, they have mostly fled. Why would they stick around? That just leaves alot of innocent people. In fact, the terrorist have moved outside of Falluja and are attacking the Iraqi army in the now undefended areas outside of Falluja. Go figure.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:26 AM

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind...And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -

                                                 William Shakespeare

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:27 AM

Fuckin' A. Kill 'em all let Allah 'em out.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:36 AM

The mainstream establishment press reinforce the rationale for conflict by invoking carefully crafted euphemisms minted by public relations teams working in synch with the Pentagon. Keep that in mind when sound-bytes like "terrorist safe house" or "insurgent stronghold" appear in news reports on Fallujah and Ramadi. Those buzzwords are the precursors of aggression, in this case the so-called "assault" on Fallujah.

The American public is more apt to accept the "necessity" of using overwhelming force when it is concealed behind catchy buzzwords or war mongering jargon. This is how a murderous attack on a civilian population is sold as a "necessity".

You bet there are refugees trying to get out of Fallujah and Ramadi. The US has been bombing the area for weeks, has cut off food, water, and supplies to the civilian population, blocked access to the city's only hospital, etc etc. That sends a message loud and clear: the US forces will kill as many innocent civilians (calling them "insurgents" and "terrorists" of course) as it takes to subjugate the entire country. Are refugees being given safe passage by US troops? Where are all the refugees? What protections are they given--food, water, medical aid, shelter from the weather? How about shelter from the fighting? Where do they go for that? Into the desert to die?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:43 AM

Dumb ass Guest: The Us has captured the hospital today to keep it from being used by terrorists as they have done in the past. Also to keep the "remaing innocent people who can't escape" from claimng a bunch of civilian casualies like they have done in the past.

You are a Buzzword. The word is Idiot.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:47 AM

"Captured" the hospital? Oh joy. I'm sure the residents of Fallujah are pleased to be safe from terrorism, and at the mercy of wounds and disease.

And with MSF/Doctors Without Borders gone, no doctors, the clinics boarded up, it sounds like the perfect playground for our Rambo Warriors.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Uncle Sam
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:50 AM

Captured means they went in and looked for terrorists. Then they secured it to keep terrorists out. They are not interfering with the operation of the hospital.

Does your mommy and daddy know you have the computer on?

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:55 AM

When the US first occupied Fallujah there were a lot of people who weren't too worried about it, and even welcomed them, the way you do when an occi=upying army moves in and you thinbk there's a chance things will at last get calm again. That included the mayor of the city.

The situation today is one which was brought about by misjudgement and mis-management.

"Insurgents", "terrorists" - why not go back to the old term that was used in the days of the Indian Wars in the USA, and call them "renegades"?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:00 AM

You don't get all the news, GUEST,US. I just heard on the BBC less than an hour ago that there are still tens of thousands of civilians who have not fled, because they have nowhere to go, or because they want to protect their property from looting. Dumb decision, I grant you, but not one worthy of being branded a "terrorist" even as your body is being blown to pieces just to avoid swelling the civilian casualty stats.

Iraq is not a country of terrorists. Fallujah is not a city of terrorists. There are no such things, because terrorists don't organise themselves into cities and countries (wouldn't it be nice if they would, it'd be easy to spot them then...).

So when Lt Col Gareth Brandl says "But the enemy has got a face. He's called Satan. He lives in Falluja. And we're going to destroy him.", I say "Gareth, either you are a naive idiot, or an evil bastard peddling myths".

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:07 AM

Oh I saw the video of the US troops "capturing" the hospital. It churned my stomach, and made me look away in shame. This is what we went to Iraq for? To storm troop our way into hospitals?

The US forces are currently preventing men of age 14-60 years
from leaving the city... US forces are also preventing journalists from entering the city to report on the ongoing massacre of innocent civilians, and war crimes by "our own" like that captured on video in the hospital...

The international community, all the Arab world, peace activists everywhere have condemned this horrific assault on Iraqi civilians. No one is supporting this except the American war mongerers. This is their Iraqi Alamo, the definitive symbol of Muslim resistance to the Bush onslaught that is destroying everything in it's path and laying waste to the entire city. This is classic David and Goliath, and "our own" aren't Davids here.

As neo conservative spokesman Frank Gaffney recently stated, the goal is the "reduction in detail (destruction) of Fallujah and other safe havens utilised by freedom's enemies in Iraq".

The whole world is watching in horror, but the US isn't listening.

And thank you, Kerry supporters, for silencing the anti-war movement that might have been able to shut down Washington DC for a few days to at the very least, draw attention to this bloodbath in our name.

Thanks so very much for sacrificing the citizens of Fallujah at your altar of political expediency.

Their blood is on your hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Neville
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:11 AM

"Gareth, either you are a naive idiot, or an evil bastard peddling myths"

Neville

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM

"The US forces are currently preventing men of age 14-60 years
from leaving the city... " - shades of Srbrenica...

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

And the greater sin of all this, is that the video of the US troops storming the hospital is the footage the US government WANTS us and is allowing us to see. We can't even imagine how horrific the scenes are that the US government isn't allowing us to see, and that's the way the US wants to keep it, too.

Do you suppose we'll see any video of the carnage, now that the US has exiled Al Jazeera TV?

Ironically, Reuters is reporting that rebel leaders in Fallujah
composed of insurgent leaders, tribal chiefs and Sunni Muslim clerics are encouraging journalists to "embed" with them during the confrontation. "All media will be allowed into Falluja to witness the
crusade against Islam and see the real face of America. U.S. media will not be excluded." This offer is not expected to influence the predictable "one-sided" reporting from the war zone nor is it clear whether it will affect the anticipated "news blackout".

Nor is it clear that any Western media will take them up on the offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:25 AM

About 230 Iraqis were found by marines still living in a building complex in the northwest edge of the city, some milling about in their underwear.

"According to residents, terrorist elements plan to use citizens as human shields then claim they were attacked by Multi-National Forces."

"They planned to bomb the Al-Haq mosque and blame the US-led forces. They (insurgents) say they are against the multinational forces but they kill the Iraqi people.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:34 AM

From Votenowar.org:
"Now the top enlisted Marine in Iraq has called on his troops to commit war crimes against the tens of thousands of remaining residents and what stands of that proud and historic city. Referring to the assault on the ancient citadel city of Hue, destroyed by U.S. soldiers in Vietnam, Sgt. Maj. Carlton W. Kent told an assembled group of 2,500 Marines in a "pep-talk": "You're all in the process of making history. This is another Hue city in the making. I have no doubt, if we do get the word, that each and every one of you is going to do what you have always done - kick some butt." (AP, November 7 2004)

The U.S. moved to reoccupy Hue after Vietnamese forces has liberated it in the Tet Offensive of 1968. The Under Secretary of the Air Force, Townsend Hoopes, described the results of the U.S. assault on Hue in a March 1968 memo as leaving "a devastated and prostrate city. Eighty per cent of the buildings had been reduced to rubble, and in the smashed ruins lay 2,000 dead civilians... Three quarters of the city's people were rendered homeless and looting was widespread, members of the ARVN [U.S. backed South Vietnamese troops] being the worst offenders." (Noam Chomsky's forward to the papers of the 1967 International War Crimes in Vietnam Tribunal)"

Wonder who has been marked as the Lt. Calley of the Iraq War? And for every man. woman, and child killed or left homeless, we create another terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM

Clamping down on movement, US troops banned men aged from 15 to 50 from entering or leaving Fallujah, warning they could become a target.

Women and children will be allowed to leave the city but cannot return until "order is restored," the US military said, according to an AFP photographer with the troops.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM

Those are pretty traditional stories passed out to the friendly press in this kind of situation. At the time of Guernica the story was put about that the bomb damage had been deliberately caused by anarchists planting bombs to make the friendly Germans look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM

Falluja is Beirut again. Falluja is Warsaw in 1939. You will always find loyal Wermacht supporters back home on their comfortable seats who will point out that the fighters defending their own homes and streets are "terrorists"...lawless scum deserving of slaughter. Yes, by all means! When you control the skies of an invaded and prostrate nation with your mightly Luftwaffe, when the city is ringed by your deadly artillery, when your rumbling tank divisions stand ready to crush the poorly armed resistance fighters block by block...thump your chests with pride, declare yourselves to "the defenders of freedom" and call the people defending their own homes "terrorists" as you once called the Vietnamese defending their own villages "communists"!

And no one will convince you that it is YOUR leaders who are the real terrorists. No one. Your ears and eyes are shut to that.

But wait. Because your turn will come. It will come finally when you are clearly seen for what you are by a World community of nations that simply will not take any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:39 AM

More propaganda terms I'm reading now in the news reports:

"as US and Iraqi troops ventured into the rebel enclave" instead of referring to the city by name. Turkish Press.

"in the first stage of a major assault on the insurgent stronghold" instead of referring to the city by name. The Guardian. That same article claims the handcuffing of the patients in the hospital was done by "Iraqi soldiers". Sure.

Also in The Guardian article:

"In the first foray across the river into Fallujah proper, Marines on Monday morning secured an apartment building in the city's northwest corner, said Capt. Brian Heatherman, of the 3rd Battalion 1st Marine Regiment.

``The Marines have now gained a foothold in the city,'' said Heatherman, 32.

He said there were some Iraqi casualties as the troops seized the building, where Marines found an improvised bomb hanging above a doorway - one of the many variety of booby traps they expect to come across in the urban battle."

"ferocious battle" is how the slaughter is being referred to by many news outlets, including the San Jose Times. And of course, the state of emergency has also closed the borders, so no more journalists, medical staff, etc are being allowed into the area now either. Savvy planning, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

The news reports are now coming out that the entire county of Iraq's borders have been closed, along with Baghdad airport.

A slaughter of Iraqi civilians by US troops is going on here people, count on it.

Let's here it for US election mandates. And I doubt that Bush has even spent more than a thin dime of his political capital on this.

Support the troops--but be sure to look away while you are doing it, because you may not have the stomach for what they are doing in the name of our very own Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

It took the Germans some time to subdue Warsaw and the other cities they blasted their way into. They did it with overwhelming firepower and utter ruthlessness. Their version of "shock and awe". They won, of course. I mean, as far as Warsaw goes, they won. They slaughtered and terrorized people in the name of every wonderful ideal you can spout out of a lying hypocrite's mouth.

And what did they inherit for their efforts? What reward did they receive for "liberating" Poland, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Yugoslavia, France, Belgium, and western Russia? What reward did the World finally bestow upon them in return for those kindly and generous acts? I don't have to tell you that. You already know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:52 AM

Fallujah is home to nearly half a million innocent human beings. (08 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM )

A half truth. It was. The number of people actually living there in this moment is considerably smaller. And where they are? If fighting was probable in my town I'd send my family to relations on the countryside.

Though of course there are still much more innocents in there than insurgents.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:00 PM

Allawi Closes Borders as Fallujah Assault Begins (Update2)

Nov. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Iraq's interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi closed Baghdad's international airport and the country's borders with Syria and Jordan, and declared a curfew in rebel- held Fallujah as U.S. and Iraqi forces began a ground assault.

Allawi said he gave his authority for Iraqi forces to spearhead an attack on Fallujah along with U.S. troops, and announced six measures to tackle the insurgents.

``We are determined to clear Fallujah of terrorists,'' Allawi said at a televised news conference in Baghdad. ``Today I have reached the conviction that the terrorists and armed groups don't want a peaceful settlement.''

Baghdad's international airport will be shut down for 48 hours, and the borders with Syria and Jordan will be closed to all vehicles except those carrying food and other necessities, Allawi said, speaking in English and in comments translated from Arabic.

----------------------------------------

Allawi and the US claim the residents have "mostly fled". Of course, there is no independent, verifiable proof of that. And according to this Bloomberg article "Allawi...declared a ban on weapons in Fallujah, a shutdown of non-essential services, and the closure of highways leading to the city for all but emergency vehicles and those authorized by the government."

Which means, of course, there is no way out of the city for residents.

And this same article quotes an American commander thus:

"Fallujah itself is encircled with checkpoints and with troops,'' said U.S. Marines spokesman Major Francis Piccoli in a satellite phone interview from outside Fallujah. ``I'm convinced that if we enter the city proper, it's going to be fast, it's going to be lightning, we will overwhelm the insurgents.''

Piccoli said the aerial bombardment of ``pre-planned'' targets was still going. ``Those targets have been bombed continuously; every hour of the day we've had at least one target engaged. We won't stop anytime soon,'' he said."

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:00 PM

"If fighting was probable in my town I'd send my family to relations on the countryside. But it would still be your home.

And, of course, "The US forces are currently preventing men of age 14-60 years from leaving the city... "

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:05 PM

Sorry, should have included this quote from the above article too:

"He (Allawi) also said insurgents have booby-trapped hospitals, schools and mosques in Fallujah."

So it is jusitifiably open season on civilians, of course.

Now then Wolfgang, Germany's countryside is a bit less brutal than Iraq's countryside, I think. How exactly tens of thousands of human beings are expected to survive in the desert with no food, water, or shelter from the sun and wind...?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

Don't avoid the subject, GUEST,Neville, by pointing Chamberlain out. I am no appeaser - where in my post did you read "don't get any terrorists"? What I DID say - but you chose to ignore - is that innocents are about to die along with the guilty. And once dead, they are bound to be branded "terrorists", along with the real ones, to avoid the damage to statistics.

But perhaps it is YOU who are the appeaser. Did you think of that? By having no courage to recognise and stand up to the wrongs, and condoning them in the name of some greater good, you are in fact "avoiding rocking the boat".

Flattening Fallujah because there are terrorists inside is an admission of failure (they cannot locate them more accurately than that) and allowing innocents to die along with the guilty is nothing short of a crime, of the type that others have in the past been convicted for by international courts.

But tell me this: If it was discovered that a cell of terrorists intending to blow up say the Capitol were hiding somewhere in a mid-size city, say Baltimore, but you couldn't locate them precisely to stop them, what would you do? Would you flatten Baltimore? Would you allow first some people to leave, after you screened them? No time - this would take days, and the terrorist's plans are imminent.

So would you nuke the place and take out the innocents along with the guilty?

Or is it OK to do the same in Fallujah because they are Iraqis, and their lives are worth less to you?

Put your hand on your heart, pray to your God if you believe, and answer me that.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:19 PM

America has really fu#ked up this war. The political leadership is as adept at its role as the leadership was in Vietnam. GET OUT, NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

Of course, we do know what all-out, incessant aerial bombing of cities looks like...London during the Blitz, Dresden, Tokyo...

And the US occupation doesn't count or report civilian casualites, just "insurgent" and "terrorist" casualties.

At the Hague in 1899, forty-four nations solemnly agreed by treaty to refrain from conducting aerial bombardments of cities.

We can see how well that one is holding up. No body bombs 'em better than the US, though. Nobody comes even close to committing the number of war atrocities as the Americans have in the last centuries. Not even the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:50 PM

Odd isn't it, that we don't see many American Mudcatters up in arms over the American massacre taking place in Fallujah participating in this thread?

Ironic. Yes, that's it. Ironic that they, like their man Kerry, believe we should just keep staying this wonderful course, liberating the HELL out of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:39 PM

Peace cannot come to Iraq until the terrorists, such as those in Falluja, are either killed or chased from the country. They must be hunted down and killed like rats in a nest.

Go Marines!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

We are at war with these insurgents over the democracy of this country, Iraq.

some of you who think we should get out now think like you have a PAPER ASSHOLE. Iraq is not going to be a free democratic country with all of your hand wringing and whining.

Please put a boot up their ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:52 PM

We allowed incompetence to take hold in Iraq. Either be an army of occupation or a defeating army. However, ya can't be both. Let the boys do the job or bring them home. This is more bullshit being driven by politicians--same thing happened in Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 03:57 PM

And why are we worried about Iraq? It's obvious they don't want our help. Bush is just playing Bully in the Schoolyard...

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:01 PM

Sounds just like the rabble-rousing BS that sent 3 million naive young Axis soldiers pouring righteously across the borders of Russia in June '41. Yes, millions of people can be wrong when they willingly support a criminal government in its aggression, imagining they are defending God and freedom...imagining they are battling "Satan". That's what the German soldiers thought. That's apparently what this fool US Marine thinks too. If there really were a Satan out there, that guy would be one of his unwitting servants at this moment. His imaginary "face of Satan" will pop up elsewhere all over Iraq once he and his brainwashed buddies finish smashing up and ruining Falluja, like a previous generation of brainwashed American kids did to Hue in Vietnam.

The Vietnamese now own Hue. As they have every right to. The Iraqis will one day own Iraq again too.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM

How obvious Chris Nightbird? Did they all personally tell you so?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:34 PM

My one and only point here is that the political agenda in Washington is one thing, and the tasks given to the troops support another agenda. The two have to be the same, or lots of kids--Yank and Iraqi--are going to keep getting hurt. This is the same sort of CF that occurred in Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:38 PM

Bruce - Read up on the history of the British Empire in Iraq in the 20's and 30's. You'll find it illuminating.

Check out this link:

Previous British Occupation of Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:01 PM

Shades of the Alamo? And not a Davey Crockett or a Bowie among them.
All fighting desperately for what they believe in, against other youngsters who, unless they believe the Liars, have no clue why they are mixed up in slaughter. Their "commander-in-chief" has "god" on his side. Possibly his "god" had a hand in the destruction of one hospital in Falluja and was of great assistance in the "capture" of the other [main] hospital. Good way to make certain that only "coalition" heroes get attention, and the heroes in the embattled streets and houses get none. I trust they all have a supply of chocolate sweets for distribution to the children. Those who are still among the Quick, that is. The dead children cannot eat sweets.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:43 PM

"...killed like rats in a nest" But who else is in that nest? Would you apply the same thinking to Baltimore, for example, Doug? Or maybe Phoenix, Arizona?

So is it, in the classic phrase, a case of "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out" - is that really what it comes down to for "compassionate conservatives" and "moral majorities"?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:44 PM

Guest, Kerry never said that we should stay this wonderful course. He said he would have handled this situation differently. Once the troops were in that country he didn't want them to be slaughtered so that he could bring them home. If he were in office, that is what would have happened. I heard him say that he would have handled this war differently. The problem is that the slaughter now taking place is not the fault of Democrats but of the Republicans. Why blame the wrong party? Do you think that Kerry would have gotten as far as he did if he had taken the stance that we would pull our troops out immediately? But now that he's no longer influential, this changes things. Now that Bush is in charge diplomacy is not an option. Do you think that Nader would have had any influence with the Democratic Party while he was challenging Kerry? That's a naive political stand. Do you think that the Democratic Party would embrace Nader? Why should they? He was running against them.

If there were international troops in Iraq represented by the UN it would be an entirely different scene. Kerry would have talked to Systani, the Sunnis, Sadr and the various factions to try to reach an approachment. He would have been a statesman and not a war-monger as you suggest.

But now Nader needs more than ever someone rational and mature to represent his point-of-view. A representative of his that is abusive, dividing,
and self-righteous will not advance the good things that he has to say.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:25 PM

Democracy don't come from the barrel of a gun...

All that the Bush folks are doing is entertaining all them angry (at what, fir gosh sakes..) white guys in the South and Midwest who voted these crooks back into office... Yep, watchin' millions of dollars worth of explosives being fired as 2000 or 3000 dug in folks with sholder arms is as good as watchin' the Halliburton/Bechtel 500. Don't get no etter than that... (spit...).

But the lesser part of the story is that by killing most of these 2000 to 3000 folks, Bush & Co. are creatin' another 2000 or 3000 folks and...

... the beat goes on. And the military/industrialist's bank accounts soar.

Meanwhile, the average American worker's standard of living continues down that slippery slope...

This is the most insane foriegn policy since the Spanish American War. Worse than Vietnem because Vitenams' lessons are fresh enough for anyone with an ounce of sanity to have learned.

George Bush, Condolesa Rice, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld will be held accountable ar some point in this life or the next 'cause God doesn't let this crap go unpunished.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

Exactly, Bobert. In this life or the next. And sooner rather than later, I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:42 PM

Guest, you won't be able to shut down Washington because you are attacking your base. By smearing Kerry supporters, you are weakening the anti-war movement. Coalition building does not start by being beligerent. If you alienate the Democratic Party by name-calling and hate rhetoric, you will not acheive much of anything. I don't think that Ralph Nader would want you to start slamming Dems or Liberals or Progressives. It's not in anyone's best interest.

I agree with much of what you said but I think you show a disrespect for the political positions of others. That's a futile policy if you want to acheive some of your goals.

What is really needed now is a united front of people who support the leaving of soldiers from Iraq. And those people need to support each other because it's not going to come from Right-wingers. Many of them love divide and conquer.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:45 PM

Unfortunately, the enlightened and educated American public seem inclined to.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

Obviously it wouldn't have made any difference, so far as the assault on Fallujah was concerned, even if Kerry had been elected last week, and even if he had been against it. Bush would still be in the White House for the next two months.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:40 PM

Ah, right. Allowing the anti-war movement, prior to the US election, to keep building in numbers, strength, vocal and loud dissent, and shutting down the streets of Washington DC with anti-war protests, that wouldn't have changed anything?

Then why bother? Why give a shit about anything, if doing something proactive has no effect?

But now, we should all do those things because the Democrats say we should, because, suddenly, they are no longer the pro-war party that voted overwhelmingly to give the Republican president the go-ahead to invade Iraq?

I see some of you have apparently had lobotomies since Nov 2nd...

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:51 PM

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:56 PM

If you are making something, GUEST Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:40 PM (why can't you use a bloody name instead of showing off like that all the time), you use what you've got, you don't complain that they aren't precisely what you'd like to have. And that includes making a movement.

"A bad workman blames his tools". A good workman mends them and sharpens them, and makes the best of what there is to hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: jaze
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:56 PM

"Democracy don't come from the barrel of a gun" Immortal words,Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:59 PM

Death comes from the barrel of a gun. And tyrrany.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM

All this time I thought only bullets came from the barrel of a gun.

What comes from the barrel of a terrorist's gun?

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:25 PM

GUEST, US: I don't see the point you're getting at. Serious. What, exactly, is your position?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:31 PM

Well, I just got back from a local protest against the assault on Fallujah here in the Twin Cities. There were about 20 of us.

Compared to how many millions was it back there before the Democrats gave us our marching orders to stop marching because it might upset the delicate sensibilities of Kerry's supporters and all the good support the troops pro-war folks?

But hey, not a problem. I'm sure the residents of Fallujah understand our politicians' expediences nuanced at their expense, the need to mend the fences with the Republican lite folks, all that. You bet.

Little sacrifice like their homes, water and electricity, kids, health care, that sort of thing, is a small price to pay for the Republicrats getting rid of the ole Bush.

What's that you say? The Republicrats didn't get rid of the Bush? So it's four more years of war crimes?

What about those prisoners at Abu Ghraib getting tortured--how's that investigation going, all the way to the top? Republicrats making a stand for justice...

No to that one too? Would have alienated the god gays and guns voters in Ohio?

Oh, OK.

Not a problem.

So, what's the marching orders for us progressives now Democratic party diehards, sirs? I'm sure if we do it your way, everything will be JUST FINE.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:20 PM

I begin to see. If you will indulge me once again, are you pissed at the Dems, Repubs or both, because if so, I agree with your piss-offedness. However, maybe dialogue would work better than anger with the folks here. (And I am a sonuvabitch who's tried both.)

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:41 PM

My position is that all this poetic crap about what comes out of a gun is drivel.

What matters is who wins, their intentions and motives.

Likewise what are the intentions and motives of the terrorists?

I find the equating the intentions and motives of the US and it's military to be that of a terrorist while the intentions of the terrorists are deemed good and just to be assinine.

This is the result of head games played by terrorists and it works on some people.

Of course I will be disrespected and called names for having a different opinion.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

Thank you for making that clear. However, are you pissed at the Dems, Repubs or both? Hell, I know what comes out the end of a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM

I'm pissed off at the Repubs and the Repubs lite, but no worse now than I was before Nov 2nd, brucie.

But hey, don't worry about me and the progressive lefties like me. Anger works as a great motivator for us, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. I can count on one or two hands the number of Mudcatters that ever get off their armchair pundit asses and take any political action, and most of them are Democratic party loyalists, out there doing the dirty for their tribe.

You might find this (scroll down) an interesting read if that is the way you feel though, brucie. We need Canadians and Brits and French and Aussie and NZlanders and Germans and...

...you get the picture. We need those millions back in the streets of capitols around the world for the Anti-Inauguration of Dubya!

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:53 PM

I have been arrested in many protests. Felt good at the time. Still does. You hang in. I agree that there will have to be people in the streets, but not specifically over the Iraq fiasco. More to the point, the greatest enemy of folk around the world at present are world banks and multi-nationals. For that, I will get arrested again.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:59 PM

You go brucie.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:05 PM

I gotta go. It's late and I am older than the average 'catter. Have a good evening, GUEST, and tend to your blood pressure. I certainly hear and agree with WHAT you are saying, but if we end up in the same cell together, you'll have to talk more quietly. Peace. Soon.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:06 PM

PS Have a good evening, GUEST. Please know that most people here ain't yer enemy. Just folks with whom you may not see eye to eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:18 PM

Sniff.....

Now go get Uncle Sam, GUEST...

Awww, jus' funnin'. Uncle Sam is "dead and sealed in his armor". Ain't no gettin' Uncle... His mind is closed tighter than a mouses ear. Tighter than tree bark... Sho nuff is...

Yeah, these Dems will figure it out one at a time and then one day enuff of them will have it figgured out for them to allow a Howard Dean to be their nominee. Electability is less important than the truth. The American people certainly ain't gettin' the truth from the media 'er the current Repubocratic Party, that's fir sure...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:12 AM

Naw, Bobert---Uncle Sam's mind isn't closed. I bet if you could look inside after each outburst, you'd find a completely empty skull, possibly subject to a limited recharge of the same guff for the next episode .

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:27 AM

Falluja a war crime

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 06:18 AM

"I can count on one or two hands the number of Mudcatters that ever get off their armchair pundit asses and take any political action."

And precisely how can you do that, "GUEST Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM"?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:47 AM

Oh, there you go again, McG... You know, askin' them higher math questions... This one would even hurt the Wes Ginny Slide Rule's head!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:54 AM

Mind you, there's no way of knowing how many fingers "GUEST Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM" has on those hands. And that "one or two hands" does seem to imply there might be a few more available. Could be we have a right-on Arcturan paying us a visit... They are known to be remarkably inflexible sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:03 AM

Of course I will be disrespected and called names for having a different opinion.

I have respect for the antiwar protestors but unfornately they are a disrespectful group that demands that they de respected.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:54 AM

Actually, US, I think you have a perfectly fine opinion. And, at least, the brains to recognize that it is an opinion.

The question left floating is to what degree is the Iraq insurgency a response to occupation by outsiders, to what degree is it a response by extra-national terrorists flocking in to have a shot at the Evil West, and to what degree is it ingrained political reistance by surviving elements of the old power structure under Saddam? I think all three are mixed together, and we have to take resposnibility, to some degree, for having generated the situation.

How we did that was by (a) invading in the first place, with an enemy that was not defined, against which we had a nebulous case (I mean Iraq, not AL Qaeda). And (b) allowing Iraq to become the staging area and theater for the whole dramatisation of any Jihadista that could be stirred up, were alreayd stirred up, or wanted to get stirred up into acting out their brand of extremism.

Now maybe it was clever to make a Middle Eastern region into the staging area and theater, drawing out the bedbugs from cells all over the Middle East into one region.

Maybe it was accidental, but still a good idea strategically.

Maybe it was a catastrophic blunder, requiring us to expend huge overhead for a looong time fighting another overseas war of intervention with inadequate rationale and terrible logistics.

Even if it was a good idea strategivcally it might be the case that it is morally reprehensible because it causes the loss of more human life than would be lost otherwise. Some people do not think killing others is morally wrong if they can muster a glib rationale for it.

Personally, I believe killing a human is deeply wrong and only worsens the situation. George Bush doesn't mind executing people and has been known to mock those who plead for mercy at his hands. ("She said, 'Please, Governor, don't kill me'", he laughed.) That's his style. The notion that hundreds of innocent bystanders have been pulped by his war machine is just an indifferent speculaiton to his mind. Why? An extraordinary ability to rationalize and jusatify, beyond normal human levels, thus keeping his conscience firmly enmeshed in a black web of ignoral from which it cannot be heard.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:29 AM

My opinion is that the "insurgency" is actually a terrorist operation. Saddam die hards are being emboldened, financed and equipped by outside forces to ensure that Iraq does not achieve a democracy.

This is concentrated in the west because of it's border with Syria and a high concentration of Sunnis whom are dominant in Syria. There is gobs of money and weapons in Syria to resupply the terrorists in the Falluja area. Some say war material was moved there before the war by Saddam. Saddam had a cozy relationship with Syria. The remains of his family is there. There was an oil pipeline running into Syria which was not on the Oil For Food books.

Whether by design or accident, The war on terrorism is going on there and not in the US where the legal system here cannot shelter them. No trial, no report to file.

If we were battling the terrorists here, What hue and cry would be coming from the anti-war protesters here? I think it would be something like "Bush failed again; Miserable failure; Catastrophic poor judgment", Etc.

People die every day from a variety of avoidable reasons. Smoking, auto accidents, accidents in US military bases. If avoidance of death is so supreme in the human list of prioritys, why aren't all causes of death given an equal emphasis?

Protesters claim if there was no invasion of Iraq, innocent people would not be dying. Based in the evil doings of the Saddam regime which people seem to have forgotten about, How many innocent people would be dying under the Saddam regime?

Protesters think only about the war as if that is the only thing happening in Iraq and refuse to acknowledge any thing positive. All the while corpses are being dug up from mass graves all over Iraq and documented in preparation for a trial of Saddam.

The war is not the only thing happening in Iraq and that war will be shorter and less severe with less loss of life without protests. It makes America look like a bunch of squabbling kids to the rest of the World. Hardly a way to earn respect.

I heard someone say on TV today that Bush got elected and he would support Bush even though he voted for Kerry. I guess that the protesters here will have names to call that person be cause he thinks differently.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:37 AM

GUEST, US:

Your disrespect for anti-war protestors is an extension of your disrespect for the views of others. I was a soldier, and I have gone to jail a few times for anti-war protest. I never once spoke back to a police officer or raised my hand to one. (I have martial arts training, and I certainly had the ability to resist arrest.) Keep your blanket statements about who we are and what we were when we did what we did. I saw kids demonstrating both their opposition to war and a different kind of courage--the kind that is not necessarily only with those who are under fire. Back off, hot shot. You are entitled to your opinion, and you are also entitled to keep it to yourself.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:43 AM

GUEST, US you bring a lot of disconnected facts together, you write reams of text, yet still, more than 40 posts and almost a day later, you have not answered my question to you (my post of 12:16 PM yesterday). I accuse you of cowardice and appeasement, GUEST, US - have you no answer to offer?

And meanwhile, let's just pick on one of your latest paragraphs; anyone will do - let's say the one that goes "People die every day from a variety of avoidable reasons. Smoking, auto accidents, accidents in US military bases. If avoidance of death is so supreme in the human list of prioritys, why aren't all causes of death given an equal emphasis?"...

a) They ARE given equal emphasis. Tobacco companies are being sued successfully, military base accidents are investigated and measures taken.
b) But you miss the point yet again - we are not talking about causes for loss of life here, we are talking about the act of taking innocent lives along with the guilty ones. As in "murder".

I could spend hours picking holes in your arguments, but you don't even offer an intellectual challenge with your drivel. Not worth it.

Back to my openly stated accusation, re the earlier post: Explain to me please why you are not a coward and an appeaser.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM

Bobert, I am pretty good at ignoring the people who post just to get a rise out of me, because my strong political views and provocative style get a rise out of others as well. I just plain ignore the people who are really cruel, like Uncle Sam and Martin Gibson.

Those guys who will very predictably respond with jerky knees just to spew at me because it makes them feel better, like Amos, Big Mick, McGrath and those boys (well, I've been ignoring McGrath for years now) I decided to turn over a new leaf on election day, and not respond to them anymore either. Life is too short to put up with the same annoying people saying the same annoying things to you about how much you annoy them, over and over and over...you get the picture.

Makes for a much nicer Mudcat experience. This election season with the Mudcat Republicrats has been a trying one, because these boys have gotten the ABB disease thing, which has done something to their brains to render their critical faculties useless. But hey, it isn't just them. It's also Katha Pollit and the Gang of DemLibs, who looked down their noses at the rest of us like we are neanderthals because we don't share their political views, and voted accordingly.

There is still a lot of paranoia and free floating anxiety among the ABB crowd. They haven't quite been able to grasp yet that not only did their guy lose, but that their whole view of the world was renounced by the election results. "How could this be" they cry? "We are so much more right than the right!" they protest. They call the rest of the Americans who didn't see things their way names, really derogatory ones I might add, and they roar their terrible roars, they gnash their terrible teeth at us. Yawn.

I am so proud to have had the privlege to vote for Nader again this year. I am deeply grateful to Nader for running, and for all the great people who worked so hard for him, both in 2000 and 2004. Nader has left us with both a legacy and a fully developed strategy upon which we can stand and fight. That is a whole lot more than I thought we would be able to get out of this silly election season for millionaires and billionaires, and their wannabe middle class voters.

So, my blood pressure is doing great, I'm a very happy camper with the election outcome for MY guy, deeply saddened that we wasted all this time, energy, and resources of the left on this pathetic election instead of building the anti-war movement, the anti-globalization movement, the environmental movement, creating a strong lobby for social services entitlements for all, that sort of thing.

But just like I lived with the world the way it was on November 1, so I am now living with the world the way it is on November 3rd.

Not much has changed, except now those Republicratlibs aren't screaming in my ear anymore about voting Nader...

And it's nice the commercials are gone (one of the hazards of living in a battleground states).

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:55 AM

Overheated name-calling is a mistake - and it's no better when it is pre-emptive. (ie, I know people are going to cakl me names, so I'll get my retaliation in first.)

"Terrorism" and "terrorists" should be confined to describing actions and the people who carry them out. It shouldn't be extended so that any action carried out by someone on the other side is a terrorist action. Shooting at an hostile army, for example, is not in itself terrorism. Intentionally blowing up civilians on the other hand is.

Demonstrations against the US adnministration's activities abroad do not make people in the rest of the world respect America less. In fact completely the reverse.

Use your imagination, Uncle Sam - if at the time of Saddam's war against Iran you had read about Iraqis going out on the streets and protesting against it, would your respect for the Iraqi people have been reduced or increased? And if those demonstrations had been allowed to take polace, would your respect for teh Iraqi givernment have been increased or decreased?

And remember, all the evidence is that in most countries around the world, including those with troops in Iraq, the large majority of people see the Iraq war as wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:11 AM

that's OK, Guest

I have no respect for you aligning with an egomaniac loser like Nader.

You and your puny minority represent less than 1% of what America feels.

I believe Guest, Us is much more realistic than the the left wing nuts who at this point really have very few in this country listening to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:45 AM

A typical example of disrepect for the opinions of others:
"Keep your blanket statements" "you are also entitled to keep it to yourself"

Anti-war protesters are allowed to express thier opinions but those with different opinions are not.

This is a violation of first ammendment rights. It is the same ammendment that the protesters cite when they protest.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM

El Greko:

Your question is convoluted to the point that I can't understand it.

If there was a terrorist cell in Baltimore it would be handled in the same way other terrorist cells have been handled in the US.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:57 AM

Like Waco, you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:07 PM

Wounded Knee? The MOVE house in Philly? Rockefeller bombing the prison uprising at Attica?

And that's just recent history of how the US government labels political dissenters "terrorists" in order to attack them.

This terrorism thing isn't new folks...

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:08 PM

"Convoluted" = "I cannot understand it"
Yet others did
You prove my point, GUEST,US: You are intellectually weak, and a coward - you let my accusation stand.

thank you
Over and out

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

Like the one in Buffalo.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

Authoritarian $y$tems always label their opponents and their victims by some sort of nasty name...communist, terrorist, Jew, traitor, Gypsy, renegade, pagan, apostate, heretic, nigger-lover, etc...

The name camouflages the real facts of the matter.

And the oppressors change hats as history rolls along. Former victims easily assume the mantle of future oppressors, once they get on top.

Look for who has the most guns, the most money, the most propaganda, and the greatest ability to destroy...and THERE you will find your number 1 terrorists. Terrorism is: the deliberate terrorizing and killing of people in order to gain greater material wealth and worldly power.

It has been practiced by every powerful government in the history of the World at one time or another. It is being practiced right now by the USA and Great Britain and Israel. It results, naturally, in smaller and less well organized terrorism in response by those who are being invaded and massacred, so you have terrorism happening on both sides.

Nothing new about that. In any long war you will find terrorism being practiced on both sides. Each side will hypocritically accuse the other of terrorism while turning a blind eye to its own.

The only ones who are not supporting terrorism are the ones who are not willing, like Adolf Eichmann, to simply "follow orders" and kill people. That takes courage. Killing people just takes a gigantic lack of imagination, empathy, and awareness.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM

The Pentagon says the past two days of fighting in Iraq have claimed 14 American lives. Yesterday's count of eleven dead is the highest one-day total in more than a-half year.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,The mudcat artist
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:41 PM

In this painting, 'The Fall of Falluja' there is the obvious ethnic and religious differences between the crusading invaders and the indiginous people. What is not obvious are the spoils for which they are fighting. Ridding the countryside of future insurgents is always a short term and foolhardy strategy. Seldom can the victors claim a complete removal of a people and their ideas.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/gulfwar3.jpg


Looking closer one may see the idiot prince asking for the "nooculer' briefcase and his minister saying no while the rest of the war cabinet looks on dispassionately. The foot soldiers doing the work are not so emotionally removed from the slaughter. They will seemingly bear the emotional scars from each wound they inflict.

No war correspondent, no editorial words or paintings have ever overcome the folly of war and caused either side to rethink their positions and lay down their arms. So while this picture may be an exercise in the futility of saving lives, at least it adds a history to current events which is sadly absent in today's coverage of the real currents of bloody war. By the time Americans see any "news" the guts of it is sanitized, censored and surgicaly removed.

Be the weapons swift swords or Depleted Uranium at a snails pace, the killing is the same. The killing is aimed at the future generations and not the elderly.

War may contain deception and trickery but
the trick is, war is for kids to fight and die, for they are the ones who would carry revenge longest thier graves.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

Good job. Do not stop.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

Guest, you say:

"But now, we should all do those things because the Democrats say we should, because, suddenly, they are no longer the pro-war party that voted overwhelmingly to give the Republican president the go-ahead to invade Iraq?"

There were constraints. Allow the inspectors to continue their successful job in dis-arming Saddam. Kerry was consistent.

If Kerry were elected, it wouldn't have changed anything regarding Falluja because Bush committed his war crime prior to the Inauguration Day Jan. 20. He was not going to listen to anyone. Kerry would not have done this.

As for uniting different factions of political belief to stop this war, it's the only way. Yes, if there are any latent Nazis out there who could change their view and support a troop withdrawal, why not?

Dividing, name-calling, ranting, raving, frothing at the mouth is the way for any political faction to paint themselves into a corner. That will attract nothing but flies.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:46 PM

So why not give it up, Frank? Your Democratic/Kerry loyalties are clouding your judgment.

Look Frank, the Democratic party simply will not lead the anti-war charge. They won't. Everyone knows that.

The anti-war movement capitulated to the Democrats in the hopes they could oust the Republicans, and thereby, hope to shorten the war. But that was a long shot at best with the Democrats, because there are a lot of hawks among them.

Frank, I always believe things turn out the way they should for a reason. If Kerry had won, he likely would have continued to co-opt the anti-war movement like he did during the election.

The victims of American imperialism need our antiwar movement to remain independent of the US electoral system, to keep it from being held hostage by the partisan warfare, as it was this election year.

The victims of American imperialism also need our antiwar movement to unite with a global antiwar, anti-imperialism movement. That is what the future generations of the planet need too.

I'm not joining the Democrats Frank, and nor are the majority of the progressive left. We aren't joining them Frank, because they are NOT the world's best hope, they are our worst nightmare, the flip side of the capitalist coin, but half the coin nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM

'The Fall of Falluja' is stunning, Mudcat artist (Donuel?). As soon as I can get to a color printer, I'm printing it out & hanging it up in my workplace--a senior high school.

But hey folks...I'm outta this thread, it's well over 100 posts at this point, and I have this personal guideline about participating in threads with more than 100 posts...I call it the Dead Horse Alarm.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

GUEST, US:

I don't object to what you say. I simply think you say it very poorly--read, in an insulting manner. Your panoramic insults are just that, and calling bullshit fertilizer will not change its aroma. You be somewhat polite and so will I. Until then, up yers.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:31 PM

the americans would do well to study the Algerian insurgency against the French, some 30 years ago.
Even though the French cracked down hard and defeated the insurgents, the cost and the tactics used turned the French population against it.
the leader of the insurgents later became the Algerian president.
(and one of the young officers in Algeria at the time happened to be Jacque Chirac)

after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, some 40% of Iraqis viewed the US as liberators. After the abuse of Abu Graib (which btw was fully intentional in order to get actionable intelligence - not just the actions of a few uneducated prison guards who ended up taking the fall), only about 5% Iraqis viewed the US as liberators.

do you think that after the elections the insurgents will just put down their weapons and go away? They seem so reasonable after all.

the US will have to stay there for years.

It wouldnt matter if Kerry was president now, theyd still be attacking Fallujah at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:25 PM

Anti-war protesters are allowed to express their opinions but those with different opinions are not.

I think you should look around you, Uncle Sam, because that really is just not true.

....................

The real question would be, what happens if somehow there is a free and fair election, and a government profoundly hostile to the USA gets elected on the strength of slogans such as "Remember Fallujah".

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:54 PM

It might be kind of like Texas spiting Santa Anna by electing Austin.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:41 AM

First the Shiites were called insurgents and now the Sunnis are being called insurgents. If both groups are considered insurgents - who is left? Seems its Bush and Alawi against all of Iraq.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:47 AM

I'd have a bit of respect for Bush if he was there. And Cheney, too. But these filthy bastards send kids to get their oil and feed their companies--RIGHT, let's keep the profits rollin' in.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 02:29 AM

Let's go back to square one.

How did America come to be?


Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 02:35 AM

In the beginning there was light.

Or alternatively,

In the beginning there was a really big explosion.

How far ya wanna take this back? I'm 57 and I ain't got all that much time left, ya know?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 03:03 AM

C'mon brucie! I'm seventy four and still spittin' nails! Let's leave Guest US sitting in square one all by himself. He'll shout loudly enough to attract visitors. He's been in that square all his life, y'see----

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 03:36 AM

how did America come to be? Let me think....

well first, there was this land, inhabited by lots and lots of people, sort of like the land of of Iraq . Then a very technologically superior and powerful country came from across the sea and decided that this land had a lots and lots of stuff that it wanted, so it invaded the native land, killing a goodly number of the inhabitants and the rest is history.....too.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM

I think Uncle Sam might have meant North America, and specifically the USA.

Well, how about this: Two powerful countries in Europe sponsored some colonies, which were a good place to get rid of people who didn't fit in too well at home, and were allowed to go either as voluntary emigrants or forced to go as transportees; and on top of that there were a lot of other people were shippd in from Africa as slaves.

And the two European countries had a few wars, and after that was done the people in the colonies of the winners didn't really need to have foreign soldiers any more, so some of them declared for independence, and there was a civil war, with some of the people wanting independence, and some opposed to it, and a lot who just wnated a quiet life andnthe fighting to end - and that ended with the foreign soldiers getting out of some of the colonies, and a lot of the colonists moving out to the colonies that hadn't broken away.

And the people left behind set up a government that was in its way democratic - except of course that didn't include the slaves, whoi weren't counted as people, but as property.

And after that the colonists were a lot freer to move across the whole continent and take it away from the people who lived there already. And these didn't count as people either.

That leaves out a lot of stuff, of course, and it could be spun other ways. But it does provide an answer to Uncle Sam's question. Though the link to what happened in Falluja is pretty remote - unless he's comparing the "insurgents" to the Minutemen and so forth, which is arguable ernough, but doesn't seem too consistent with what I take to be his general stance on such matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

Or was it that Uncle Sam was writing "How did America come to be in Iraq?" and missed out the last two words?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM

"Look Frank, the Democratic party simply will not lead the anti-war charge. They won't. Everyone knows that."

Guest,
We need to change the Democratic Party, not destroy it. There are some Dems who did not agree to go to war in Iraq. Representative John Lewis of Georgia was one. I know there are more. I don't want to beat a dead horse regarding Kerry's nomination. That's history. It's time to move on.

Splitting up into splinter groups will weaken any anti-war movement. The Movement will require Dems, Independents and enlightened Republicans and Libertarians. Many Dems may not lead but they must not be excluded. The door must remain open.

I was active in the Vietnam anti-war movement and the Civil Rights Movement.. I demonstrated a number of times. I marched with people from all walks of life and all political persuasions. (John Kerry lead the vets against the Vietnam war. It's important to remember what someone does, rather than what someone says. You evaluate them by their actions). It will do no good to go to jail with support. In union there is strength.

Frank

Frank

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM

"In union there is strength."The people you are up against know that. They are a most peculiar collection indeed, and pretty obviously a lot of them must absolutely detest each other, but that doesn't stop them holding together to get power.

They use to say here that the Tory Secret Weapon was unity, in contrast to the people to the left of them, who could be relied on to split at the drop of a hat.

Fortunately, for now, it seems the Tories have mislaid that Secret Weapon, and currently have about as much chance of winning an election as Nader did of becoming President. (The down side of that is that Tony Blair is likely to get away without being hammered, because of the way the politcal system works here.)

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM

I assume all you naysayers and defeatists have been hearing about the terrorist slaugher houses uncovered in Falluja. Places where the heads of hostages were chopped off? The sad thing is you STILL think these terrorists can be reasoned with.

McGrath: if people other than terrotists are found in the nest, they just shouldn't be. The people of Falluja had plenty of time, and notice, to evacuate the city.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,drunk on power
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:28 PM

Here Doug I have a free drink for you here...

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/cocktail2.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 02:27 PM

Doug, that's just it, not all the "non-insurgents" have left because they were blocked a few days ago (no male under 45 to cross), or because they have nowhere to go, or because they wanted to stop and protect their property (as in warehouses, jewellers, etc). Bad decision on their part, I grant you, but not a reason for any deaths among them to be brushed off as "collateral damage".

I don't give a shit about terrorists, murderers etc (though in a different discussion I would like to examine who created them in the first place, but leave it for now). You want them killed - fine. It's the innocents I worry about, and whether in the heat of battle they will even be recognised as innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 03:56 PM

I have a horrible feeling that, if they're dead and over 14, that will mean they will be counted as "terrorists".

Did you know, Doug, that under Saddam, Falluja was actually one of the main places where there was |Sunni opposition to him? And that, until the US military shot up a peaceful demonstration of people calling for their local school to be returned to them, and killed a bunch of people, the city was relatively content with the occupation.

"On April 28 2003 US soldiers opened fire on parents and children demonstrating against the continued military occupation of their primary school - killing 18 of them in cold blood and injuring about 60 others. Until the killing of those demonstrators, not a single bullet had been fired at US soldiers in Falluja or any of the cities north of Baghdad."

That is from www.guardian.co.uk, a piece by a man called Sami Ramadani, who was a political refugee from Saddam's regime, and is a senior lecturer at London Metropolitan University; it appears in today's Guardian.

The weight of the evidence seems to be that the Al Zarquawi mob have got away before the fighting, and that the "terrorists" firing back are predominantly ordinary locals.

Clearing out "no go areas" is something the people directing occupying armies like to do, because in the short run it provides a sense of achievement. But in the long run it has disastrouse effects. In Northern Ireland, when the British cleaned up "Free Derry" on Bloody Sunday, it fuelled nearly thirty years of war, and made the IRA in effect unbeatable, and destroyed any hopes of an alternative strategy of non-violence.

(And no, I'm not trying to identify two widely different situations - seeking parallels and analogies is a lot different from doing that.)

It seems pretty obvious that "Remember Falluja" will be a rallying cry and a recruiting sergeant for generations. That's how these things work - The Alamo, Custer's Last Stand, Easter 1916, just for starters. People forget how deeply flawed the people engaged in these kinds of episodes often were, and how many mistakes may have made to get into that situation. The "last stand" will always have the power to be a resonant call to arms.

And the really nasty thing is that the kind of peole who are going to be able to make use of that call to arms are going to be murderous terrorists in the Al Qa'eda stamp. Not so much in Iraq maybe, where it's probably going to be nationalists who benefit, but in other places around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 03:59 PM

I have a horrible feeling that, if they're dead and over 14, that will mean they will be counted as "terrorists".

Did you know, Doug, that under Saddam, Falluja was actually one of the main places where there was Sunni opposition to him? And that, until the US military shot up a peaceful demonstration of people calling for their local school to be returned to them, and killed a bunch of people, the city was relatively content with the occupation.

"On April 28 2003 US soldiers opened fire on parents and children demonstrating against the continued military occupation of their primary school - killing 18 of them in cold blood and injuring about 60 others. Until the killing of those demonstrators, not a single bullet had been fired at US soldiers in Falluja or any of the cities north of Baghdad."

That is from this piece by a man called Sami Ramadani, who was a political refugee from Saddam's regime, and is a senior lecturer at London Metropolitan University; it appears in today's Guardian.

The weight of the evidence seems to be that the Al Zarquawi mob have got away before the fighting, and that the "terrorists" firing back are predominantly ordinary locals.

Clearing out "no go areas" is something the people directing occupying armies like to do, because in the short run it provides a sense of achievement. But in the long run it has disastrouse effects. In Northern Ireland, when the British cleaned up "Free Derry" on Bloody Sunday, it fuelled nearly thirty years of war, and made the IRA in effect unbeatable, and destroyed any hopes of an alternative strategy of non-violence.

(And no, I'm not trying to identify two widely different situations - seeking parallels and analogies is a lot different from doing that.)

It seems pretty obvious that "Remember Falluja" will be a rallying cry and a recruiting sergeant for generations. That's how these things work - The Alamo, Custer's Last Stand, Easter 1916, just for starters. People forget how deeply flawed the people engaged in these kinds of episodes often were, and how many mistakes may have made to get into that situation. The "last stand" will always have the power to be a resonant call to arms.

And the really nasty thing is that the kind of peole who are going to be able to make use of that call to arms are going to be murderous terrorists in the Al Qa'eda stamp. Not so much in Iraq maybe, where it's probably going to be nationalists who benefit, but in other places around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 07:29 PM

Hmmmm! Wonder if the Iraqis chopped off more heads than Texas governor Bush?
   I think we shall wait and see on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:27 PM

I don't suppose anyone here cares that the insurgents are in violation of the Geneva Convention?

"Iraqi forces have "already acquitted themselves well," searching some of the city's 77 mosques, where they have found "lots of munitions and weapons," said Lt. Col. Pete Newell with Task Force 2-2 of the Army's 1st Infantry Division."

The use of mosques for storage of arms is prohibited- but I guess that does not matter unless you can blame the US....

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: mg
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:58 PM

I think that the terrorists by definition are probably not going to let everyone leave. What better position to be in than an orphanage say. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:59 PM

Falluja is the city of mosques. What better way to hit the Muslim world than to destroy their places of worship. Taking Falluja is a symbol for the American conquerer.

It will also spell his demise.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:25 PM

Beardedbruce:

It is unlikely that the insurgents ever signed the Geneva Convention.

You seem to really misunderstand, intentionally o rnot, the desires and viewpoints of those here who feel strongly against the war. There arguments to end the war are countered by the necessity of the current conflict, which ends up meaning that the war necessitates the war.

Before our boots invaded the soil of Iraq, no insurgency was evident, and no violent IEDs and rabid international collections of terrorists walked the cities.

How did this pass come about, do you suppose?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:42 PM

Hint: Revolutionary war. Lexington. Shot heard round the world. Minute Men. Patriots.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:42 PM

Amos,

It came about because, after 9/11, there was information that Iraq was planning terrorist acts. The Bush Administration went to the UN, who passed a resolution giving Saddam another chance to meet his obligations. When Saddam did not do so, the UN refused to take any action, since certain members were making a lot of money voiolating the resolutions already passed. The US, in self-defense at a percieved threat to itself took action. I

F there had been effective international support for a solution, or even demand for Saddam to comply, perhaps an armed invasion would not have been needed. To some degree, I hold those people who demanded the US NOT act, but made no request that Saddam comply with the UN resolutions, to be at fault, and guilty of the blood of those innocents that have been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:57 PM

The question was how did America (the USA) come to be?

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:00 AM

Revolutionary war. Untie the apron strings.

Lexington. I'm in concord with that.

Shot heard round the world. Sarajevo?

Minute Men. Missiles?

Patriots. Missiles?

I do NOT understand this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:22 AM

"Information" of that sort is easily available, BB. Anyone who has ever had to collect rent knows that cheap and fraudulent collections of data are as cheap and easy to come by as wishes.

Good managers learn to tell the difference between probable, improbable, and incredible information.

These distinctions were made by people on the threads here over and over during the rampup to war. Bush thought otherwise. He lacked humility, AND he lacked expertise in management skills so he could tell the difference.

Sad combination.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:10 AM

Am I to assume the anti-war protestors here do not know their American history?

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:23 AM

"Falluja forces find hostage killing houses

Rory McCarthy in Baghdad
Thursday November 11, 2004
The Guardian UK

American and Iraqi troops fighting for control of Falluja yesterday uncovered several "hostage slaughter houses" where kidnap victims had been murdered, a senior Iraqi general said.

The buildings, in northern parts of the city known to be an insurgent stronghold, were littered, he said, with debris from insurgents including lists of names of hostages who had been held.

Major General Abdul Qader Mohan, the commander of Iraqi forces fighting in the city, said his men discovered "the black clothing that they used to wear so no one knew it was them".

The soldiers also found hundreds of CDs showing beheadings and "whole records with names of hostages", he said. "This is what our soldiers found in some of the houses that were used to hold hostages and kill them."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1348398,00.html

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:16 AM

GUEST U.S.--I hope your name is Sam, and that you are some unlucky kid's uncle. Otherwise the pet label usually worn with pride by US Americans is being severely smirched. If you want a discussion on American history, why not start a different thread? At least we will have the option of contributing. Or Not.
   And it does seem all at once, that some of those much maligned Iraqes [those of the quisling stamp anyway]are gaining quite a deal of ctedibility! Just BTW--haven't you been following the news? Even Al Jazeera have been reporting beheadings for weeks now; that somebody claims to have found evidence is hardly "news"!

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:29 AM

Let's just break down the origin of the new demonizing buzzword that the Iraq warlovers are tossing about…"hostage slaughterhouses". This is the AP report on the subject.

"FALLUJAH, Iraq - An Iraqi general said troops found "hostage slaughterhouses" where foreign captives had been killed in Fallujah, where U.S. forces cornered insurgents after a stunningly swift advance that seized control of 70 percent of the militant stronghold. ."

In this first paragraph the term is introduced.

"The abandoned houses in northern Fallujah had hostages' documents, CDs showing captives being killed, and black clothing worn by militants in videos, Maj. Gen. Abdul Qader Mohammed Jassem Mohan said Wednesday at a military camp near Fallujah."

Notice that no hostages, no slaughtered people or traces of slaughter are found. Some documents described as hostages', some black clothing and some CDs(DVDs?) showing captives being killed. I read that there were videos of beheadings for sale in a Tampa gas station. Black clothing you can get anywhere.

"But it appeared troops did not find any of the at least nine foreigners still in kidnappers' hands — including two Americans. "We have found hostage slaughterhouses in Fallujah that were used by these people," Mohan said. But he said he did not know which hostages' documents were uncovered."

The term is repeated. The spokesman doesn't know anything about the documents. And still no people found or evidence of actual slaughter reported.

"No record of foreigners
Mohan was unsure if the hostage records included the names of any of the at least nine foreigners still in the hands of kidnappers — most notably British aid worker Margaret Hassan, French journalists Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot and two Americans.
"I did not look closely" at the documents, he said."

He says he did not look closely at the documents. So why are they characterized as belonging to hostages? This guy doesn't sound like he knows anything.

So that's the news report. Term introduced, now to be endlessly repeated (kind of like "rape rooms"). No proof, no traces of "slaughter", no hostages, some black clothing and some videos. maybe. More PR from the propaganda division so folks like dougR, US, and BB can toss the terms out to justify more needless killing. Our people are dying for nothing and thousands of innocent Iraqis are being slaughtered. We live in a dark time.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:32 AM

GUEST, US: Don't be so friggin' smug. My degree is social studies with double minors in history and English--the degree was "with distinction". You are not making yourself clear, and as a result some folks--me being one--are pulling your chain. Ya got something ya wanna talk about. let's do that. But please make clear WHAT you wanna talk about, OK, buddy?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:42 AM

Brucie, don't get in a lather. GUEST,US has already been shown to have some kind of a problem between brain and keyboard, making him/herself unclear, being the only one not to understand other people's arguments (see my posts of 9 and 10 November) and in the end being happy to be branded a coward/appeaser and leaving it at that.

Don't waste effort on him/her. Turds will float, fact of life. Just swim away carefully and wait for it to be biodegraded. It's just a matter of time. But there's no point prodding it - the smell will only get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM

"U.S. troops free hostage in Fallujah

The Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military said Thursday that one hostage was found imprisoned in Fallujah."
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/10154656.htm?1c

"Lebanese hostages freed in Iraq
Fri, 05 Nov 2004
Two Lebanese held hostage in Iraq for more than two months have been freed and returned home, officials said in Beirut Friday.
Marwan Kassar and Mohammed Hussein, who had been working in Iraq for the Lebanese power equipment firm Al-Jbeili, were taken by car from Fallujah, where they had been held, to Baghdad on Wednesday.
The two men said they were kidnapped August 25 near Ramadi, while on their way from Amman to Baghdad, by a group of about 60 militiamen from the Islamic Army in Iraq, according to the officials.
On October 2, an internet statement in the name of the IAI said the group was holding the two men and gave Beirut an ultimatum to stop its nationals working for the US-led military in Iraq."
http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/388600.htm

"3 Jordanian drivers freed in Iraq Nov 9, 2004
Three Jordanian truck drivers held hostage in Iraq since last week have been freed"
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-11/10/content_2199736.htm

"HOSTAGE SLAUGHTERHOUSE FIND Nov 11 2004        
By Chris Hughes                
                           
HOSTAGE slaughterhouses have been discovered in the heart of Fallujah by coalition troops, the Iraqi government said last night.
Westerners are believed to have been held in them before being beheaded by followers of terror chief Abu Musab al-Zarqawi."        
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14858980&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=hostage-slaughterhouse-find-name_page.html
Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 09:07 AM

Can the administration answer the basic questions posed in Friedman's column:

Groundhog Day in Iraq

He sounds like my old project manager, but he was a good project manager.

(NY Times likes people to be registered to read its stuff, but some of the material comes right up).

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM

Ah, robomatic, just another un-American two-bit reporter writing in a cheapo leaflet, frustrated at Kerry's loss and diverting the discussion towards things that have already been sorted and will be shown to be so by the history books... And you take him seriously...

Orwell was dead right. Just twenty years out.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:16 PM

Fascinating program on WAMU public radio (not Al Franken nor Rush Limbaugh) Tuesday evening.

Included interviews with various representatives of different points of view on Fallujah, including several military men, past and present, and a former advisor to the Thatcher government, and an Iraqi dealing with how oil money is to come to Iraqis.

The only one who thought things were going according to plan was the Thatcher advisor, whose only gripe was that it wasn't done earlier. Several others thought that if that if it was to be done, it should have been done earlier. But most of these also thought there were problems, ranging from the military downside of tank-destroyed houses--- (affords more refuge for snipers, sometimes more effectively than the buildings themselves)--to the fact that the ringleaders (Zarqawi etc.) had long since left the city. It happens that on Tuesday night, a particularly holy day in Ramadan, anybody who is killed is guaranteed Paradise, so fighters seeking martyrdom would stay.

Also, several people noted that since the leaders had left, the insurgents would make another stand any number of places--- (why does this sound like the American Revolution?)

The most fascinating commentator was the Iraqi oil consultant, who pointed out that one of the main "success stories" of the new Iraqi army---- touted by the Bush administration----is actually staffed heavily with Kurdish fighters, who don't consider themselves Iraqis. In fact the Kurdish north of the country has been a de facto separate country for many years now--not under Saddam's rule since the end of the Gulf War. The Kurds in north Iraq (several million) have expressed a desire for total independence from Iraq.

So now Mr. Bush, brilliant geopolitical strategist that he is, has sent US soldiers and soldiers who are basically Kurdish mercenaries, on behalf of the supposed Iraqi government, into Fallujah to slaughter anyone who might oppose them. Tell me they'll be careful to distinguish Iraqi civilians from fighters. When the heat-detecting device senses a human behind the door, then what?

But Doug R.---- (and no doubt our courageous Guest US)---- in his boundless generosity
says the people of Fallujah had time to vacate the city---implication-if they didn't they deserve to be slaughtered?

Too bad, Doug, that you and your family members can't be Iraqi civilians in Fallujah, who couldn't make it out, to experience the meaning of your "rough justice".

So the Kurds and Americans kill Iraqis on behalf of the Allawi government, thereby winning the undying loyalty of Iraqis and smoothing the way for elections?
Something doesn't compute here.

Meanwhile the actual leaders of the insurgency slip away to start mischief elsewhere, enticing Bush to destroy another Iraqi city.

Ah, yes, Doug R and courageous Ghost ""Uncle Sam"--no doubt about it--you and your boy are peerless warriors--- (as long as somebody else does it). Too bad body count isn't   actually the goal here. Wasn't there something about a functioning Iraqi state?---"freedom is on the march",, as I recall.

Tell us if you ever get out of your sandbox playing soldier, and realize that a democratic state is not usually created by mercenaries killing citizens and destroying cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

GUEST,US - Just because, "Westerners are believed to have been held in them ..." doesn't mean its true.

Do you believe everything in print?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:28 PM

Uncle Sam, you are repeating yourself. Asking the same question over again, but ignoring the answers you got the first time.

If you are saying that the reason there are people fighting against the Americans in Falluja is because the American soldiers are there, and that is is the same reason there were people fighting against the British in Boston, ie, because the the British soldiers were there - well, that seems true enough, as far as it goes.

It's really a political/military version of Newton's Third law of Mootion - "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

(Are all the GUEST,US posts from the same bloke? They seem to veer around a bit. The trouble with GUEST posts is you never can tell that kind of thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: skipy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:49 PM

From here on in - stop feeding the troll! - don't reply or question anything that it has to say!

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

Ron Davies: ah yes, old tactic, used often here on the Mudcat. Someone disagrees with you, attack the poster personally. You're wasting your time with me, though, I've been attacked by experts here. No problem.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 05:57 PM

skipy:

Reminds me of a science fiction story I read years back. Can't remember the title or author, but the story goes thus:

World is destroyed.
Aliens land and find a reel of film.
(This is what will represent the greatest efforts of humankind.)
They study the film for years.
Finally they are able to piece together what life on Earth was like.
The only thing they still had trouble with was the 'message' at the end of the film.
They couldn't figure it out.
It read, "A Walt Disney Production."

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

Doug-

So what's your answer? You who think it's fine that anybody left in Fallujah is ipso facto a terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 08:18 PM

"Someone disagrees with you, attack the poster personally." True enough, that's one way people avoid dealing with some awkward point the other party has made. Another way is to complain about the personal attack, and avoid the point the way.

What we should be tring to do, of course, is to tackle the awkward points head on, and either explain why they are invalid, or accept them, and adjust our overall argument to take them into account. But that would mean we would be engaged in a discussion trying to get closer to the truth, rather than just trying to win points in an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:04 AM

Well said Ron Davies, Shame on the apologists

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM

Nobody here knows the origins of the United States of America but they are experts on war.

Tensions in Boston, Massachusetts had been building for months. The colonists had grown more and more unhappy about the series of taxes passed by Parliament: Sugar Act, Currency Act, Quartering Act, Stamp Act, Townshend Act and the Tea Act. The last had prompted the Boston Tea Party in 1773. The Commander-in-Chief of the British Army in America, Lt. General Thomas Gage, who was headquartered in Boston, attempted to minimize tensions between the colonists and British soldiers. However, his efforts were hampered by continued harsh legislation from Parliament.

In April, General Gage is ordered to take decisive actions to quell the growing rebellion. Colonial spies in Boston quickly learn of a planned expedition to Concord to capture members of the Massachusetts Provincial Congress and supplies. One April 18, 1775, Dr. Joseph Warren sends messages with both Paul Revere and William Dawes. Dawes travels out of Boston by land, while Revere goes by water. After a near capture, Revere reaches Lexington and warns John Hancock and Samuel Adams. He and Dawes attempt to continue on to Concord, but are waylaid. Dr. Samuel Prescott does make it to Concord. Revere is back in a Lexington tavern retrieving Hancock's papers when the famous Shot Heard 'Round the World is fired.


Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:45 PM

LISTEN, my children, and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light,—
One, if by land, and two, if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Middlesex village and farm,
For the country folk to be up and to arm."

Then he said "Good-night!" and with muffled oar
Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore,
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.

Meanwhile, his friend through alley and street,
Wanders and watches, with eager ears,
Till in the silence around him he hears
The muster of men at the barrack door,
The sound of arms, and the tramp of feet,
And the measured tread of the grenadiers,
Marching down to their boats on the shore.

Then he climbed the tower of the Old North Church,
By the wooden stairs, with stealthy tread,
To the belfry-chamber overhead,
And startled the pigeons from their perch
On the sombre rafters, that round him made
Masses and moving shapes of shade,—
By the trembling ladder, steep and tall,
To the highest window in the wall,
Where he paused to listen and look down
A moment on the roofs of the town,
And the moonlight flowing over all.

Beneath, in the churchyard, lay the dead,
In their night-encampment on the hill,
Wrapped in silence so deep and still
That he could hear, like a sentinel's tread,
The watchful night-wind, as it went
Creeping along from tent to tent,
And seeming to whisper, "All is well!"
A moment only he feels the spell
Of the place and the hour, and the secret dread
Of the lonely belfry and the dead;
For suddenly all his thoughts are bent
On a shadowy something far away,
Where the river widens to meet the bay,—
A line of black that bends and floats
On the rising tide like a bridge of boats.

Meanwhile, impatient to mount and ride,
Booted and spurred, with a heavy stride
On the opposite shore walked Paul Revere.
Now he patted his horse's side,
Now he gazed at the landscape far and near,
Then, impetuous, stamped the earth,
And turned and tightened his saddle-girth;
But mostly he watched with eager search
The belfry-tower of the Old North Church,
As it rose above the graves on the hill,
Lonely and spectral and sombre and still.
And lo! as he looks, on the belfry's height
A glimmer, and then a gleam of light!
He springs to the saddle, the bridle he turns,
But lingers and gazes, till full on his sight
A second lamp in the belfry burns!

A hurry of hoofs in a village street,
A shape in the moonlight, a bulk in the dark,
And beneath, from the pebbles, in passing, a spark
Struck out by a steed flying fearless and fleet:
That was all! And yet, through the gloom and the light,
The fate of a nation was riding that night;
And the spark struck out by that steed, in his flight,
Kindled the land into flame with its heat.

He has left the village and mounted the steep,
And beneath him, tranquil and broad and deep,
Is the Mystic, meeting the ocean tides;
And under the alders that skirt its edge,
Now soft on the sand, now loud on the ledge,
Is heard the tramp of his steed as he rides.

It was twelve by the village clock
When he crossed the bridge into Medford town.
He heard the crowing of the cock,
And the barking of the farmer's dog,
And felt the damp of the river fog,
That rises after the sun goes down.

It was one by the village clock,
When he galloped into Lexington.
He saw the gilded weathercock
Swim in the moonlight as he passed,
And the meeting-house windows, black and bare,
Gaze at him with a spectral glare,
As if they already stood aghast
At the bloody work they would look upon.

It was two by the village clock,
When he came to the bridge in Concord town.
He heard the bleating of the flock,
And the twitter of birds among the trees,
And felt the breath of the morning breeze
Blowing over the meadow brown.
And one was safe and asleep in his bed
Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
Who that day would be lying dead,
Pierced by a British musket-ball.

You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,—
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farm-yard wall,
Chasing the red-coats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,—
A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo forevermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Pauline L
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:16 PM

Ron Davies said, "So the Kurds and Americans kill Iraqis on behalf of the Allawi government, thereby winning the undying loyalty of Iraqis and smoothing the way for elections?" Yes, Ron, that is called "peacekeeping."

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:49 AM

Pauline L -

I have never before heard of any 'peacekeeping' going on in Iraq. Where did you get this idea?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 07:49 AM

The problems is getting an election that can be presented as " democratic", but which will not produce up a government that is virulently hostile to the invaders.

Back in January 2004 100,000 Iraqis marched on the streets of Baghdad, and 30,000 in Basra calling for elections, and opposing the installation of a government appointed by the Occupation. At that time Iraq was a lot less chaotic than it is now.

But they weren't allowed an election, on the excuse that the existing electoral lists weren't good enough. The same lists that will be used in January (if there are in fact any elections).

The current escalating warfare will on the one hand provide an excuse to disoense with the elections, if need be, and it will ensure that a lot of people who might have voted the wrong way stay away from teh polls, either because they are boycotting the elections, or because they are scared to vote.

One way and another the objective is to ensure that there is no danger of a hostile government being elected. And yet on the basis of opinion polls in Iraq, any government that actually reflects ppopular opinion will be hostile to the Occupation. (Here's a poll carried out back in June, by the U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority, which reported that An overwhelming majority, about 80 percent, also say they have "no confidence" in either the U.S. civilian authorities or Coalition forces.

And here is a piece by Naommi Klein in today's Guardian - Die, then vote. This is Falluja : "Iraqi elections were postponed to save Bush. That led to today's carnage."

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Pauline L
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 06:05 PM

Dianavan, I keep reading and hearing on the news about our "peacekeepers" in Iraq. I used to think they were "fighters" or "troops." Our language, if not our thinking, has been corrupted by politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 08:42 PM

Pauline - If the media is calling the U.S. forces, peacekeepers, it is the most disgusting twisting of truth I have ever heard. How dare they call themselves, peacekeepers; especially when they went there without U.N. approval. If its unilateral invasion of a country, it can hardly be called a peacekeeping operation. I am apalled.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,US
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:05 AM

http://www.news.com.au (click)"It is a female ... missing all four appendages, with a slashed throat and disembowled, she has been dead for a while but only in this location for a day or two," said Benjamin Finnell, a hospital apprentice with the Navy Corps, who had inspected the body...

Sweeps of rubble-strewn neighbourhoods in Fallujah have already uncovered a grisly underworld of hostage slaughterhouses, prisons and torture chambers as well as the corpses of Iraqis who had been executed"


Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:23 AM

The trouble is, not all reports about atrocities are to be trusted. Back in the Kuwait war there were reports about how Iraqis were pulling premature babies out of incubators in hospitals. These later proved to be dreamed up by some USA propaganda unit.

Maybe these latest ones are true, and that's a possibility which cannot be dismissed, but then again maybe they aren't. Until some fully independent investigation is made it's completely impossible to make any judgement.

One thing for sure - there will be no shortage of mutilated corpses on the streets of Fallujah after the assault of the last few days. That's what happens when you bomb and shell a city.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:03 PM

If its true, and the body happens to be that of the missing aide worker; don't you think it would be appropriate to get a positive identification on the body and notify the family before plastering it all over the internet?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:40 PM

Funny thing is, I didn't start this thread for a debate about the rights or wrongs of the inevitable assault on Falluja. To a large degree, your opinions as to "freedom fighter" or "terrorist" are entirely irrelevant (we none of us make the decisions after all).

What bothered me, in the original BBC article that inspired this post, was the attitude of the battalion commander at the sharp end. This is a man who, in civilian terms, is a very senior middle manager. He's in command of the best part of a thousand men. He can call on virtually unlimited & unquestioning support from artillery, airforce, & bloody (literally) anything he wants. He's going to be responsible for killing people in the dozens & multiples thereof.

But he says "...the enemy has got a face. He's called Satan. He lives in Falluja. And we're going to destroy him."

I know Dubya is somewhere to the right of God. I'm not asking whether you think the presence of US troops is right or wrong. I'm just astonished that someone with this kind of mindset can be promoted to such a powerful position within the US military. Compare & contrast with Lt-Col Tim Collins' much quoted speech in the build up to GWII.

Why is that the US is so slow to learn the lessons of other conflicts? Korea, Vietnam (Full MEtal Jacket, anyone?), Northern Ireland, & so on?

I'd like to see the West win this peace (the war was, IMHO, necessary, overdue, & a foregone conclusion). But if the US politico-military high command continues on the way it is...

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

Hee's a link to the BBC report of that Lt-Col Tim Collins speech

The difference in tone is rather striking.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:06 PM

Thank you, Kevin, for the link. It's been a long while since I read anthing like the full original.

It really does bring (& just has brought) tears to my eyes (which rarely happens). The saddest thing is that I cannot imagine an American OC producing a similar address (QED Lt-Col G.Brandl).

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:18 PM

Raedwulf, I can. Sort of like expounding love from the pulpit by day, then attending a clan crossburning at night...little difference, or to quote my husband, "There's no inside passenger doorhandle on America's volkswagon".

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM

Atrocities in Fallujah are a direct pointer to Bush Adminstration Crusade sending troops over there to conquer what he considers to be "evil".

I think it's Bush doing "wag the dog". He gets to best his daddy by being "commander-in-chief" and playing God. He appeals to bloodthirsty citizens everywhere who have revenge and murder in their eyes. Do you think they care about the slaughter of innocent Iraqi men and women? Does anyone in their right mind think a bomb is "smart"?

Who are the terrorists?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:59 PM

Frank:

You mean you don't know who the terrorists are? The terrorists are the ones that target civilians, hold them hostage and behead them.

Two were hung from a bridge in Falluja.

Let me know when the Coalition forces start doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:43 PM

People who target civiians, hold them prisoner in hostage conditions, and kill them?

I'd quite agree that people who do that sort of thing are acting as terrorists.

I rather think that examples of that being done by "our side" are not particularly uncommon.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:46 PM

Give us a list.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:55 PM

List the citizens of Falluja.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:18 PM

not particularly uncommon

Where is the list of civilians beheaded by Coalition forces?

M

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:37 PM

There are other ways of killing people than beheading them.

Remember that snapshot of that pretty little soldier smiling with her head next to a prisoner who had been killed in Abu Ghraib?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:43 AM

Molotov---the leg you imagine you have to stand on is very weak indeed. I don't know where in Hell you get you news [unless it's Hell's own gazette --"Fox'] but you surely haven't seen pictures of dead children --lots of them---or heard the pleas of Iraqi parents for succour for their bomb-shattered kids, Or seen the latest video of a wounded Iraqi man ---unarmed--- being callously shot to death by a squaddie [he's more than likely the unlucky one who did it under the gaze of a camera lens.] If you HAVE seen and heard these things and are yet serious in your views, then I cannot get my mind around just what kind of character you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 04:12 AM

Why do some people try to present the two (more?) sides as wholly good or wholly evil? Are they really so naive as to believe that one side commits all the atrocities, and the other side not? This is war, folks - dirty, dusty, muddy, kill-or-be-killed, take-this-for-my-mate, right-of-the-powerful.

But no atrocity is excusable. Not even if it is commited to avenge one hundred atrocities. Because you don't measure ethics in numbers, and you can't weigh goodness or evil. Only recognise it.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:10 AM

not particularly uncommon

MGH:

Is there even one example of this thing that is not uncommon or does the ststement need to be retracted?

M

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Gervase
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:32 PM

High explosive and shrapnel do a pretty good job of beheading. So does a 5.56 round.
I agree, to do such a thing in cold blood with a knife is barbaric, but is it any more 'civilised' to do it at a distance with modern weaponry? The end result is a dead person, however it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:45 PM

Is there even one example of this thing? You mean an instance of of people on "our side" killing unarmed prisoners, Molotov? Or shooting unarmed civilians?

Did you look at that photo I linked to in that last post? Pretty girl, isn't she with a lovely smile. But the dead man next to her wasn't dead when he was arrested.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM

McGrath,

And she has been tried and convicted. WHERE are the Al-Queda trials for murder of civilians? Or for killing unarmed captives? Or for blowing up crowds of Iraqis?

I thought you posted that one evil deed did not justify another? Or is that something you choose only to apply to the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM

MGH:

Let me know when the Coalition forces starting target civilians, holding them hostage and beheading them.

Two were hung from a bridge in Falluja.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:58 PM

For God's sake beardedbruce - when have I ever said anything to indicate that I think that Al Qa'eda are something to be adnmired or emulated? Or that any act of terrorism ever justifies acts of terrorism in response?

Disagree with things I say by all means, but don't pretend I said things I have never said or implied.

My point is that both sides are guilty of doing things that should never happen, and that are properly described as terrorist acts, and that any suggestion that it's only "the other side" which is guilty on this way is false.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:19 PM

But the US is prosecuting it's people who violate the law- and the other side is not. Yet, you equate the two as equally evil. To harp on actions by one side while ignoring the actions of the other is blatent propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:44 PM

You are changing the subject, bearded bruce, and backing off from either defending what you said in your last post, or retracting it.

Saying that both sides are guilty of terrorist acts is not to say that they are guilty of the same terrorist acts, or even to say that they are equally guilty. It is too early to draw up the balance sheets on that kind of thing. There is no doubt that some indescribably cruel and evil things have been done by some people on "the other side".

But there are not any people on the Mudcat saying that the people responsible, for example for the murder of Margaret Hassan, were doing a great job.

I do not find the fact that, when episodes like Abu Ghraib come to light, trials of some of the low-ranking individuals identified are held, very impressive. It sees pretty clear that responsibility for that episode stretches far higher, and that the real culprits are mostbunliokley to be punished.

And if in a few days I read a press release saying Al Zharqawi had executed the people responsible for Margaret Hassan's death, I wouldn't be impressed by that either. He knows how to play the media game, which is why last week he issued a press release asking her captors to release her.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:45 PM

There are no degrees of "evil". Evil is evil, plain and simple, and deplorable in all cases. You don't compare evil acts to see which one is "more evil" than the other - hey, have you noticed that the term "eviller" does not exist?

So, the US prosecutes its evil-doers. Good, I would expect no less from a civilised country. The other side does not - sad and deplorable. But the fact that they do not (prosecute their evil-doers), does not justify evil in return.

So let's not try to justify lesser evils by the existence of worse ones. Yes, I know some live by demanding an "eye for an eye", but the majority have moved beyond that. And our own civilised status puts the onus on us to behave civilly even when the other side does not. Punish, yes. Commit evil, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Pauline L
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:58 PM

The U.S. has prosecuted a select few of its people who have violated the law, but only after the issue was publicized extensively in the press. Even then, pains were taken to shield the higher ups and make it appear that the lowly ones were acting strictly on their own and that their actions would not be tolerated by those of higher rank. A more fundamental issue is: When is killing a crime? In war, many people are killed but the killers are not considered criminals.

I agree with El Greko. Neither side is all good or all bad. War is hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:19 PM

"Let me know when the Coalition forces starting target civilians, holding them hostage and beheading them"

Certainly not targeting them on purpose. But 100,000 are dead. Many civilians. Many women and children. Targeted dead is every bit as dead as collateral dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

GUEST, TIA

And how many of those were killed by those opposing the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:01 PM

Like very few, bb...

Do you drink a lot, 'er what?

100,000 Iragis dead since the US invasion, 30,000 US sorties flown, millions of rounds of US amunition,US tank and artillery included, and you want to suggest that these folks died of natural causes, 'er suicude, 'er maybe Saddam was sneakin' outta his hole at night and offin' 'um???? Is that yer final assessment?

Like I asked. Do you drink a lot?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:08 PM

Bobert,

In case you have lost the ability to think, at least several hundred have been killed the last few weeks by car bombs and execution by the "terrorists"

I was asking for a count, and get stupid comments like yours. How can there be a reasonable discussion of the facts when you seem incapable of even realizing there ARE facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:13 PM

You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on yer butt, bb....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:16 PM

I guess that was the limit of your conversational abilities...

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:36 PM

You, bb, apparently haven't been 'round here too long... Might wanta check out *my* history of postin's....

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:37 PM

Guys, cool off -- there is reported fact for that number, sorry. If 100,000 Iraqis are dead it is very obvious that the vast majority of them were killed by US munitions. You can do an extrapolation, and estimate it at, say, 75,000 (to be really conservative about it) but there's no body count, and we really don't need any precision.

The fact is that tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed by US forces. Killed permanently.

The other fact is that prior tot he invasion, there were no Iraqis trying to kill Americans, in or out of uniform, as far as I recall. Any correction out there?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:40 PM

Question I have asked before and no one has answered. Why is the US still in Iraq? What was their mission, and when will it be accomplished?


Hussein is outta power. All the WMDs have been seized by the occupying forces, and what's left to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:41 PM

Fear not, Amos... bb will have an excuse...

B~~~~~~

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:43 PM

. . . other than destroy Falluja, and then some other city that has people Bush doesn't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:46 PM

And prior to Pearl Harbor, there were no Japanese trying to kill Americans...

And prior to the Gulf war, there were no UN resolutions that Saddam had violated.

Any correction out there?

Why is it that when someone has a different point of view, some people insist on attacking them, rather than a discussion of the facts that the opinions are based on?

Is there some reason that Bobert is unwilling to admit that there might be a fact to discuss?

You hold the US to blame for all the casualties of the war, when the war was caused by people like you giving Saddam the idea that he could flaunt the UN resolutions without haveing any consequences.

IMO, You, Bobert, and you, Amos, bear some degree of blame for every death that you are saying is the fault of the US. If you ( collectively) had spent the energy asking Saddam to comply that you spent telling the world that the US should take no action, it is likely that there would have been no need for invasion, no war, and no deaths due to US action.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:34 AM

Beardedbruce - Are you trying to equate the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbour to the U.S. invasion of Iraq?

I really can't follow your argument. It makes no sense.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:42 AM

dianavan,

I was stating facts.

Amos stated "The other fact is that prior tot he invasion, there were no Iraqis trying to kill Americans, in or out of uniform, as far as I recall. " In fact, he is incorrect as there has been a level of combat between US and Iraqi forces throughout the perions 1991-2003. But ignoring that, the statement that prior to the start of the present war there was no major conflict makes light of all the information, whether correct or not, that the administration based its decision to demand that the UN act, and when the UN refused, after it's own inspectors stated that Iraq was in substatial breach of the resolution, took action to protect US interest. Perhaps that was a mistake, but I do not think that after 9/11 one can just sit back and wait for a major attack when one has information that indicates one is coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:20 AM

For Pete's sake bb, I thought you already knew that Iraq did not bomb the twin towers and that there were no WMD's found in Iraq.

Don't be so thick-headed, bb. It is sooooooooooo boring.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:46 AM

No one has said that Iraq bombed the towers. That is a stupid , knee-jerk response aimed at ridiculing serious question as to the threat to the US presented by Iraq.


The information from the British and US intelligence sources indicated a capability for WMD. The UN inspectors could never show that the EXISTING material was not hiddn somewhere in Iraq, because of Saddam's refusal to comply with the UN resolutions. The Russians indicated that they had information that Iraq was supplying WMD materials to terrorist groups that intended to attack the US.

IF the rest of the world did not believe that Iraq had the WMD materials they had claimed, and the UN could not account for, WHY did NONE of the nations ( like France and Germany, who were profiting off of the "oil for food" and also by violations of the UN sanctions that they claimed would solve things) EVER just insist that SADDAM comply with the resolutions, or even open his borders?

THEN there would have been no conflict. But in fact, those countries, and the misguided individuals who insisted that the US NOT enforce the resolution ( that gave "one last chance" to Saddam to come clean) ENCOURAGED Saddam to not comply, and are a contributing cause of the US attack and the many deaths.

If you read the reports, there are no WMD in Iraq now. As for the possible ones there earlier, and where they might be now, the report indicates that there is not enough information to determine if they exist, or where they might be. NOT that they were not there. But of course, it is sooooooooooo boring to actually try to find out the facts, when there is a party line that one can just parrot, and make fun of anyone who questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:59 AM

I don't have a party line so you can forget that line of attack.

Maybe you can answer this: If all but 10% of the population of Falluja had left before the invasion by the U.S., and the U.S. are claiming to have killed 1600 insurgents, what was the original population of Falluja?

Could it be that most of the dead are actually civilians and that most of the so-called rebels left before the U.S. arrived? Seems they found plenty of evidence of rebel activity but very few rebels. What was the point of telling everyone they were coming and then giving everybody plenty of opportunity to leave? Wasn't this attack really just symbollic?

And another thing - Why is the media calling Iraqis, insurgents? If there are that many insurgents, maybe the U.S. should leave so that the people can just be Iraqis again.

I guess you think that might is right.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:10 AM

No, I think that the interim government should have the chance to hold elections. If someone wins who asks the US to leave, we should, and IMO will.

But how about all those arms and explosives, found in the mosques ( A violation of the Geneva convention, if the use of a populated urban area as a battleground were not already a violation (ON THE PART OF THE INSURGENTS!)) Were they just symbolic? Since the largest number of victims of the insurgent attacks seem to be civilian Iraqis, I guess you are saying that the government should let the population be slaughtered bt the MINORITY that are fighting? ( estimates of total insurgents is around 25,000, from a population of what, 25 million? One in a thousand. And how many are Baath party loyalists?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:19 AM

Of the 1600 dead in Falluja, the Red Cross estimates that 800 were civilians.

Big whoopie-doo! The U.S. killed 800 civilians in Falluja so that they could kill another 800 insurgents. Lets see, 2500 - 800 = 1700 insurgents left.

So if the ratio remains the same, we need only kill another 1700 civilians to wipe out the insurgents. Seems to me that the victory is a bit misplaced.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: mg
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:33 AM

Don't worry about there being no WMDs in Iraq. They are most likely here in the U.S. now. And duh...they didn't have to make them, just buy them. And one fanatic with a dull ancient sword can bring entire countries to their knees. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:37 AM

I suggest that this thread be allowed to die the death. The proportion of those who regret the deceptions used to "justify' the attack on Iraq to the numbers who still, incredibly, proclaim belief in the "facts" of WMDs and Iraqi "threats' is at least five to one. To imagine that those people can be turned towards truth is a forlorn hope at best. There are some who, like Bush and his squad, know the truth, but are of the mind that it is less beneficial to their needs than the lies. They therefor perpetuate and elaborate on the original invention which had non-existent WMDs and evil intentions
on the part of Iraq. As these became increasingly ridiculous in the eyes of the world, they were gradually reshaped into regime change and "liberation of the Iraqi people". Molotov and B.B. obviously still swallow that; nothing will ever change it.
Peace------

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:53 AM

Thank you, Boab, for your pronouncement from on high....


Just who died and made you God?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:58 AM

dianavan,

so if we find out that the civilians in Falluja were forced to stay by the insurgents, you will continue to blame the US for their deaths?


In combat, anyone who shoots at you is, de facto, the enemy. The Geneva convention prohibits most of what the insurgents are doing, beause it endangers non-combatants. How many more police recruits do you want to have their throats cut because you don't want to place the blame for the deaths on the insurgents, where it belongs?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:18 AM

Woah there, bb - where did you see a "pronouncement" from Boab? He made a suggestion, that's all (read his post again). You can choose to ignore it, follow it or go against it - that's all. Why are you suddently ascribing to him God-like intentions? Or was that flaring up your way of a "reasoned argument" for whatever?

You have brains. Use them when you're posting. That other stuff belongs down the pan.

And I have yet to hear your view on my earlier post about not comparing evil acts but deploring them all. Do you agree?

Or do n+1 deaths weigh more heavily than n?
Or it depends on who are the dead?
Come on, show your true colours.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:31 AM

I have stated that any acts against the UMCJ should and IMO will be prosecuted. Yes, they are to be deplored- but why is it neccasary to deplore the acts that will be punished and ignore the acts by the insurgents that are being ignored? Are you saying that the deaths caused by the insurgents, of innocent civilians, are less to be commented on because we expect no better of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:55 AM

bb wrote:
but why is it neccasary to deplore the acts that will be punished and ignore the acts by the insurgents that are being ignored? Are you saying that the deaths caused by the insurgents, of innocent civilians, are less to be commented on because we expect no better of them?

I never said those things, bb. Read my postings again, and watch my lips: All evil is EQUALLY deplorable. I expect more from the army of a civilised country, but I deplore equally the deaths caused by the terrorists, or insurgents or whatever you want to call them.

It is you, dear chap, who keeps trying to make comparisons, and somehow try to lessen the impact of one side's evil doings.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 09:11 AM

El Greco,

It is a complete waste of time trying to argue with bb. He'll put words in yer mouth that you didn't say and then turn around a question your integrity!... He did this to my a couple months ago and so I just figured that the best way to deal with bb is to just plain ignore him, which I pretty much do.

Beyond this pathology he has problems with connecting the dots, Yep, thre boy's reasoning powers are badly mis-wired. I would hope that he is getting help with some of his pronoucements 'cause if he is coming up with them all on his own I fear he has reached a point of no return when it comes to analizing and processing information.

Now, I think I'll just go back to ignoring him, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:47 AM

When threads turn into people making personal attacks against each other, it's time to stop visiting them. It's quite possible to indicate disagrement without getting into that stuff, as El Greko just demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM

I did sin in thought however, Kevin! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Pauline L
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:29 PM

Bb, any country may be thought to posses WMD. Intelligence assessments can be wrong, faked, ignored, or used to somebody's purposes. This is especially true in the post-election CIA, whose workers have been told that their mission is to support the Administration (Aaaah! I'm choking on this one.) I don't think anyone would advocate starting a war with any country that has been publicized as possibly having WMD.

El Greko, I couldn't agree with you more. You said, "And I have yet to hear your view on my earlier post about not comparing evil acts but deploring them all. Do you agree?

Or do n+1 deaths weigh more heavily than n?
Or it depends on who are the dead?
Come on, show your true colours. "

As long ago as the war in Vietnam, I've hated the body counts that told which side killed more people. It reminded me of keeping score at a football game. The good guys are not necessarily the ones who kill more people.

Re the issue of killing insurgent, sympathizers, combatants, or civilians: Long ago, the Catholic church developed and put forth a Just War Doctrine which said, in part, that a just war is one in which only combatants, not civilians were killed (or something like that; I'm not a theologian). By this definition, no modern war is just because killing is wholesale, not selective.

As El Greko said, "Does it depend on who are the dead?" Are the lives of one group of people worth more than the lives of another group of people?" Which side of the conflict would Jesus be on? Does it matter? As Arthur Tollivan noted, in a wonderful Christmas song, "On each end of the rifle, we're the same."

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:58 PM

there are only a few people left defending the invasion ,BB Larry Doug and one or two nutty guests.

But crazy as we find their ideas, I feel we must continue to answer their posts.
By ignoring them we simply reinforce their belief that they are holding the "high ground " against the socialist hordes.

Perhaps we'll never change their minds,but its important that they are ground down by reasoned argument. They deserve no quarter..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: mg
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:16 PM

Yes, if one group of people is holding another group hostage, beheading them, shackling them, leaving them to starve. Then the group of people who goes in to save the shackled are worth more, perhaps not in theological terms, but in who do you throw off the lifeboat terms, than the people who are the shackled. And we are well on our way to being the shackled and the beheaded. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: mg
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:43 PM

I mean those who are doing the shackling. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Pauline L
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:23 PM

Holding people hostage, beheading them, shackling them, etc. are gruesome, but are these acts more or less moral than killing lots of people in a war? I repeat what El Greko and I have said several times: Neither side is all good or all bad. War is hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: Peace
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:31 PM

Many things are hell. War is just one of them. It is an undisguised murder, and treating it as something else is a good exercise in split-level reality, but it's still murder. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:47 AM

elGreko---thanks for trying to show B.B. the error of his ways!
[ Hey---sounds almost "godlike", that, eh??] I trust that you are not overconcerned about my feelings. Written insults can only give mental anguish, and when such shots are fired from a barrel of such low calibre, the impact is more like one from a doughball than a cannonball....
New thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Johnjohn
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:58 PM

Killed permanently

There is a novel concept.

Hassan Body Found in Fallujah


JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Sancho
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:43 AM

Rebel Headquarters Found in Fallujah

Sancho

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:38 AM

Oh, Sancho...Are you a 'Real American'?

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Sancho
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:35 PM

Are you a "Real Idiot"

Subject: RE: BS: Falluja
From: GUEST,Johnjohn
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:39 PM

In video footage shot by a CNN crew, soldiers walked through one imposing building with concrete columns, with a large sign in Arabic on the wall reading "al-Qaida Organisation" and "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger."

JJ