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BS: America commits war crimes.

Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Nov 04 - 01:33 AM
dianavan 16 Nov 04 - 01:46 AM
LadyJean 16 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Nov 04 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,Boab 16 Nov 04 - 02:09 AM
Ellenpoly 16 Nov 04 - 02:39 AM
Metchosin 16 Nov 04 - 02:40 AM
Dead Horse 16 Nov 04 - 03:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 06:24 AM
jacqui.c 16 Nov 04 - 07:03 AM
freda underhill 16 Nov 04 - 07:15 AM
Davetnova 16 Nov 04 - 08:11 AM
Stu 16 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM
artbrooks 16 Nov 04 - 08:39 AM
freda underhill 16 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,US 16 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM
Rapparee 16 Nov 04 - 09:34 AM
Davetnova 16 Nov 04 - 09:43 AM
Dead Horse 16 Nov 04 - 09:44 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Nov 04 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,US 16 Nov 04 - 09:50 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM
Davetnova 16 Nov 04 - 09:56 AM
freda underhill 16 Nov 04 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,US 16 Nov 04 - 10:05 AM
GUEST 16 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM
Nerd 16 Nov 04 - 12:49 PM
DougR 16 Nov 04 - 12:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 04 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Norton1 16 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM
Chris Green 16 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM
DougR 16 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 04 - 03:21 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM
Nerd 16 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM
Nerd 16 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,TIA 16 Nov 04 - 05:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,Norton1 16 Nov 04 - 05:24 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 06:26 PM
artbrooks 16 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 06:56 PM
Greg F. 16 Nov 04 - 07:06 PM
Once Famous 16 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM
Greg F. 16 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 04 - 07:26 PM
kendall 16 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM
beardedbruce 16 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM
Peace 16 Nov 04 - 08:10 PM
GUEST,US 16 Nov 04 - 08:12 PM
artbrooks 16 Nov 04 - 08:14 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM
Peace 16 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM
Peace 16 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 08:46 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 04 - 09:04 PM
beardedbruce 16 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,US 16 Nov 04 - 09:23 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 04 - 09:30 PM
beardedbruce 16 Nov 04 - 09:36 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 04 - 09:42 PM
Peace 16 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM
DougR 16 Nov 04 - 09:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 04 - 10:02 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 04 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,TIA 16 Nov 04 - 10:08 PM
Peace 16 Nov 04 - 10:10 PM
GUEST,US 16 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 04 - 10:29 PM
Peace 16 Nov 04 - 10:34 PM
Greg F. 16 Nov 04 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 17 Nov 04 - 12:02 AM
dianavan 17 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM
Ooh-Aah2 17 Nov 04 - 04:48 AM
Davetnova 17 Nov 04 - 05:29 AM
Ooh-Aah2 17 Nov 04 - 06:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 04 - 08:24 AM
Wolfgang 17 Nov 04 - 08:58 AM
Big Mick 17 Nov 04 - 09:30 AM
akenaton 17 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 04 - 01:59 PM
akenaton 17 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM
Peace 17 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM
Nerd 17 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM
Wolfgang 17 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM
akenaton 17 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM
DougR 17 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM
akenaton 17 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM
DougR 17 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM
akenaton 17 Nov 04 - 05:12 PM
Big Mick 17 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 17 Nov 04 - 07:37 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 04 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,petr 17 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM
Peace 17 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,US 17 Nov 04 - 10:29 PM
Ebbie 17 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM
Metchosin 17 Nov 04 - 10:53 PM
Metchosin 17 Nov 04 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,Boab 18 Nov 04 - 01:31 AM
Wolfgang 18 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM
RichM 18 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Larry K 18 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM
Peace 18 Nov 04 - 03:58 PM
Nerd 18 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM
Ebbie 18 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM
Bobert 18 Nov 04 - 07:57 PM
GUEST 18 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM
GUEST 18 Nov 04 - 08:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 04 - 08:25 PM
mg 18 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM
Ebbie 18 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM
Peace 18 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM
GUEST,US 19 Nov 04 - 12:24 AM
Peace 19 Nov 04 - 12:25 AM
Big Mick 19 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM
GUEST 19 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM
Paco Rabanne 19 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM
GUEST 19 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM
DougR 19 Nov 04 - 12:50 PM
dianavan 19 Nov 04 - 12:58 PM
GUEST 19 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM
Bobert 19 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM
Nerd 19 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM
Ooh-Aah2 19 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM
Big Mick 19 Nov 04 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,US 19 Nov 04 - 11:53 PM
Peace 20 Nov 04 - 12:01 AM
Ooh-Aah2 20 Nov 04 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,Barry Finn 20 Nov 04 - 04:40 AM
Bobert 20 Nov 04 - 08:54 AM
dianavan 20 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,US 20 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM
Ooh-Aah2 20 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM
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Nerd 20 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM
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Subject: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:33 AM

Just seen this on ITV [Independent Television News], they should footage of american marines shooting dead an unarmed civillian in a Mosque.
On the same piece of footage, a young Iraq man is seen with gunshot wounds to his leg, he says "I gave you information about the insurgents yesterday, then you shot me", he was also unarmed.
I wonder how many of the so called insurgents were unarmed civilans?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:46 AM

Sir jOhn - I'd say there is so much disrespect for the Muslims of Iraq that the most the U.S. will do in Falluja is a body count (if that).

d


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: LadyJean
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM

Sir John, I've been sitting in my home, the beaver colony (One dam thing after another.)   I did not commit a war crime. I did not vote for Bush. I do not support the war in Iraq. I did hear about the marine shooting an unarmed civilian on the six o'clock news, and I'm hoping my government will punish him. I may drop my congressman a line and insist that something be done. Do not blame a whole country for the actions of a few.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:56 AM

ok point taken, this thread should have been called
American Soldiers commit war crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:09 AM

One American Military genius reckons that "there are no civilians in Fallija" [!!!!] The puppet "prime minister" says there are "no civilian casualties". So the "christian" right mudheads who voted to perpetuate the slaughter can face their "god" in the morning after all.
   If SCORES of civilian dead is not a conservative estimate, I'd be very surprised. "Dead insurgents" probably include men, and women, AND children.
   There is one inescapable fact, and that is no matter what view you take of those fighters in Iraq, their heroism cannot be denied. Their cause may be flawed, and bringing death and destruction to innocents around them, but they are not the ones wielding the heavy stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:39 AM

"Dead insurgents" is soon to become an oxymoron.


As to answering your question, jOhn, "I wonder how many of the so called insurgents were unarmed civilans?"

As in most wars, we'll never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:40 AM

Some of the civilians that aren't there........ anymore


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Dead Horse
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:53 AM

American soldiers commit war crimes.
Don't we all?
Or do you stick to the rules when your buddy has just been blown up!
I will admit to thinking that the more gung-ho a unit is, the more they are likely to see no wrong in their actions.
There is absolutely no nation more gung-ho than the Americans.........
(Read that back to me. Yes, as I feared, confused thoughts from an often
confused & frustrated ex-squaddie who deep in his heart knows it's all gone to shit in a hand cart)


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:24 AM

No doubt soldiers who are foolish enough to do things like that in front of news cameras will be punished. Or at least, proceedings of some kind exploring whether they should be charged will be started, and will continue at least as long as there is media attention.

But whoever was responsible for letting a news camera get anywhere near this will be in serious trouble. "Embedding" journalists is supposed to make sure that kind of picture doesn't get into the media.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:03 AM

Kendall here. Why do you think Bush doesn't want anything to do with the World Court?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:15 AM

there's an article on that topic here, Kendall


Attacks against World Court by Bush, Kerry and Congress Reveals Growing Bipartis


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:11 AM

According to the news Americans don't commit war crimes. The soldier will apparently, if the evidence warrants it, be tried as an individual for murder, not as a soldier for war crimes. Americans don't do war crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM

If he hadn't been caught on camera, he would have got a way with it.

This must happen all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:39 AM

There is a court at the Hague which has apparently been defined, by those who have signed on to a particular international agreement, as the one and only place where war crimes may be tried. The present US political administration, rightly or wrongly, has chosen not to participate in the activities of this tribunal. That being said, would anyone care to define "war crime?" Are all crimes committed during a war war crimes, or does it require some violent act by a member of the military? Are individual, ad hoc, acts of violence included or is some sort of concerted effort or conspiracy required? Can, or should, all violent crimes committed during a military conflict be referred to this tribunal?

The incident in question, and there should be no doubt that it, if accurately reported, was a crime, was committed by a young man who apparently shot a wounded Iraqi. This same young man saw a comrade killed the previous day by a wounded Iraqi concealing a weapon. Is this justification? Of course not. Is this the policy of the US military command? Of course not.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

what is a war crime

US the first to try and define war crimes?

yet another definition of war crime


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

The "unarmed civilian" was at a window where he had been sniping at the Coalition soldiers. He may or may have not been dead at the time but he was definately not a civilian.

There were two of them there at the window one of them was definately dead.

The whole incident is based on what Kevin Sites said.

You anti-war wimps are so anxious for the US to lose you are pissing in your pants every time you hear something that can be spun against the US.

All you need is a terrorist attack in your neighborhood and you will be cheering every time someone shoots a terrorist.


International law experts in the Middle East have expressed fury at the incident which, they said, is a flagrant violation on Geneva Convention on the treatment of war prisoners. Where is the fury when a terrorist kidnaps and beheads a preisoner? When will the Geneva Convention apply to terrorisim?

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

Actually the Mosque was involved in a battle the day before. Five insurgents were left behind for another unit to pick up and transport to a medical facility. They apparently did not get picked up and re-engaged the Marines the next day. There was another battle and several of the insurgents were shot a second time as part of that assault. It was during the second assault the Iraqi was allegedly shot by the Marine.

If the insurgents did re-engage the Marines on that day the Iraqi was not a civilian or POW but an active combatant and well within the scope of being killed. There will be an investigation and a trial.

No one here was there. Nor is anyone here a judge. Might want to wait until the facts emerge before blaming an entire country for one individual's actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:34 AM

I don't have enough evidence to either comment OR judge.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:43 AM

Guest US - We had terrorists in this neck of the woods for several years, I believe many Americans gave money to support them.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Dead Horse
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:44 AM

What is the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?
The Iraqi irregulars are fighting for what they believe is freedom, and the allies are waging a war of "shock & awe".
Aint that terror?
My brain, as always, is in neutral. BG.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:49 AM

GUEST-US-He was not at a window, he was lying injured on the floor of a mosque, i saw the footage myself on the 6AM news this morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:50 AM

If you look at the headlines most of them say that the matter is being investigated. The minority ot these headlines pass judgement and say that the soldier is guilty of shooting an un armed civilian POW.

Kevin Sites is a freelance solo journalist currently on assignment for
NBC News in Iraq. He worked for CNN at one time but he violated his contract wirh CNN in that he has a Blog.

Ironicaly, he owns "Shoot First Films".

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM

waht you on about, stupid?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:56 AM

I think many of us misunderstood when we were asked to support the War On Terrorism. I for one thought they wanted us on America's side but that would be fighting for terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:02 AM

using the term war crime puts it on another level - its all wrong there, that guy just got caught in front of the camera. Its all a tragedy and there is brutality on both sides.

Ultimately the people responsible are the people like George Bush, who has never seen combat, never risked his life, and is not in the war zone. The politicians are the criminals, the soldiers are there because they have been sent by their country.

Whatever is happening, those soldiers are in the frontline. War sends everyone mad. their judgement, their responses, are instantaneous, and they are a war zone. But they must not be made scapegoats for the decisions of their leaders to use them in a war.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:05 AM

FU:

Ditto Somalia.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM

was not at a window

There were two of them lying in front of windows.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

So we are expected to believe that a bunch of these unsurgents were shot and wounded and and captured by a US unit, who left them lying there with their weapons, and the next day they started using those weapons again, so another unit came in and shot them dead? And this is from an army that vastly outnumbered and outgunned the insurgents?

That is really convincing and really impressive.

But I preduct that after a day or sed it'll slide out of public attention, and we'll never get to hear the end of it. Remember that wedding party that apparently got slaughtered in Iraq a few months back? The media turned its atttention away, and the story just disappeared.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:49 PM

Actually, Sites was pretty clear what happened; I saw him on MSNBC yesterday. The man WAS unarmed. He was not confirmed to be a civilian. It appeared to the US forces at though he was an insurgent wounded the previous day and left in the mosque overnight. There was not really another "battle" at the mosque; the US forces simply came back. According to Sites it wasn't all that clear why they went there.

Just before the unarmed man was shot, one of the US soldiers (couldn't tell if it was the one who shot him) accused him loudly of "playing dead." Apparently, the kid was afraid that the wounded man had a gun, and was pretending to be dead/wounded so he could either shoot the American troops when they weren't expecting it, or get away. (Odd that he had been left there unattended overnight and then shot for allegedly "playing dead.")

The NBC military advisor, a retired Marine Colonel, said that he thought it was pretty clearly a "war crime," but that investigations would determine what appropriate punishment would be. Unless the insurgent is found to have been armed after all, this incident would clearly violate the third Geneva convention, which states that unarmed combatants and those placed out of combat by wounds must be treated humanely.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:57 PM

No, John, there was no call for this thread at all, unless the purpose was to invite fellow catters to participate in one of their favorite pastimes:bashing America.

We all read newspapers, many of us watch television and listen to the radio. Some of us even read the news via the Internet. Posting a news story that anyone who keeps up with the news at all will have already seen, makes no sense at all to me. Unless, of course, my first paragraph is correct.

Example: From today's Arizona Republic, "CUBA PERFORMERS SEE U.S. ASYLUM." Is that story NEWS to anyone here? Perhaps I should have started a thread with it. Gimme a break.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM

I can't see that a bunch of perfomers deciding that they'd be better off performing on a bigger stage, so to speak, is a particularly significant story.

This one is, because this is claimed to be a war against terrorism, and killimg unarmed prioners is terrorism, whether its done by shooting them or beheading them.

If a soldier shooting unarmed prisoners happens to get spotted by a news camera, to ask people to accept that this is the only such incident which happened, and it so chanced that a camera was there to record it, is asking rather a lot.

In any case, an army has a duty to take charge of prisoners, and if they are wounded to ensure they are treated, not to leave them lying around. To fail to do so, withiout very goods reasons, is itself a war crime.

That kind of thing might happen in a situation where the forces on the ground are very evenly matched, and no one can be spared to deal with prisoners, but that wasn't this kind of fight. If we are to believe what we have been told, there were perhaps 2,000 insurgents, and 15,000 or more US and Iraqi Army.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

Doug R, I'm afraid if the 'tin hat' fits....

If 'America' gets bashed, its because someone sees its fit for bashing, though regrettably, even people who very laudably declare "Not in my name" will get lumped in with those who seem to believe "My Country, right or wrong".

Sad to say, it seems apparent to me, from this, & other postings on the 'Cat, that you are one of the latter.

Having said that, you seem prone to flaming anyone who brings up a topic you dont feel like discussing anyway....whether its about this 'war' or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:34 PM

"In his report accompanying the images, Sites said that one of the Marines noticed that one of the wounded men was still breathing before shouting that he was "faking it".

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head. The pictures are too graphic for us to broadcast," said Sites. He added: "The prisoner did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way". Major Doug Powell, a spokesman for the Marine Corps in Washington, told The Independent: "It's being investigated - I can't say much more than that. It's being investigated for possible law of war violations. A naval criminal investigation team is looking into it."

"The footage - some of the first to show the situation inside Fallujah and the bloody nature of the street-by-street battle that has taken place there - is the latest to emerge from Iraq to contain possible evidence of war crimes perpetrated by the US military.
"Other footage has shown troops shooting wounded fighters lying in open ground as well as attacks on Iraqis - some said to be civilians - by US aircraft and helicopters. This latest footage is among the most shocking given that it apparently shows without obstruction the Marine shooting the prisoner in the head at close range.

"Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said last night that such images would "recruit more terrorists faster than they are being killed".

Article


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

And now Margaret Hassan is dead. Butched in front of a video camera. Someone who spent 30 years of her life helping the poorest of the poor. Where's the indignation over that one? Who's court will those animals be tried in?

Yep - let's beat up America over one incident and ignore why America is there. Mr. McGrath - I imagine that you are a good guy but your attitude really sucks at times. You're on an American web site where the freedom of speech is guaranteed and sniveling about things you really don't know a lot about. Nor have you, to my knowledge, done anything to ensure that the freedom of speech continues.

So go belabor your point. Lots of folks have done a lot to ensure that freedom is here. Enjoy it lad - we earned it for you.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Chris Green
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM

I'm indignant about Margaret Hassan. I'm also indignant about the poor sod who was obviously severely wounded and was shot in cold blood. Both are thoroughly repellent acts. Both, in an ideal world would be punished by international law. However, since neither side in this conflict have any respect for international law, it would appear that this is unfortunately likely to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

McGrath and Guest: you both miss my point. I do not condone what the Marine is reported to have done. If he is tried and found guilty, he should be punished.

My point is, it is NOT news, though John posted it as such. Anyone with a radio or TV knew about it.

The inference that the whole country is guilty because of the prossible guilt of one person, however, is pretty far-fetched.

Guest: damn right I'm proud of my country and I'm not ashamed of it. If it is such a terrible country,why didn't the Cuban dance troup seek asylum in Russia, Great Britian, France, Germany or some country? Why is the waiting list so long to immigrate to get the U. S.?
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

Norton, please read what I said to Doug R [Yes, same 'Guest'] & add to it an acusation of a somewhat.....slanted view of History on your part. Youre not the only one, of course....we have heard the fallacious remark that "you Limeys would all be talking in German but for our guys" way too many times, from all sorts of people, some of whom should know better.

McGrath does go on a bit, but I do agree with quite a few of the things he says here, though far from all.

My sympathies are with the families of all the victims of murder today & recent days.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:21 PM

Doug, believe me, no way do I believe you were condoning it in the slightest.

I dont even believe 'Guest, Uncle Sam' does....though he seems dysfunctional enough to pretend so.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM

Peers Defend Comrade


Steve, it always mystifies me when people assume that others don't have an opinion or don't share the common emotion just because of their silence. There is such a thing as an appalled silence, you know. we all feel the same as you do about Margaret Hassan's capture and purported death. We are human beings and all of us feel punched in the gut.

I imagine that the reason we don't rail against the insurgents and do about the 'Coalition' when they each commit crimes is that we have a personal stake in our own people. We know that we cannot affect what the insurgents do. We may be able to affect our own countrymen's future.

The fact remains that we are there. Just what is our objective? Just what will signify victory for us?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

Steve Norton uses the usual fallacious argument. You are incensed that X has committed a crime. But Y, who may or may not have some association with the victim of X's crime, has also committed a crime. You should pay attention to Y's crime rather than X's crime!

Why, Steve? Why should we be more incensed about one innocent person murdered than another? If Sir jOhn says he is incensed about Margaret Hassan (which of course he is), will you get incensed about this?

I thought not.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

No Doug, I wasn't saying you condoned what that Marine appears to have done. I'm quite sure you are horrified at what appears to have happened, and would have done everything you could to stop that kind of thing happening if you had been in the spot.

We might disagree as to whether to see it as a one-off aberration by a particular individual, which I think you would, or an instance caught on camera of something that is probably a lot more widespread, and reflects a particular style of military training, which is what I would be more likely to suspect. But we'd agree that it is something that shouldn't happen, and that is an important thing to agree about, because there are some people who really think that kind of thing doesn't matter.

And no one is saying that it's just the Americans. Clearly there are some people on the other side who are capable of just about anything. But when a war is proclaimed as "a war on terrorism" that implies a promise that terrorist methods will not be used in waging it.

As for "The inference that the whole country is guilty", John of Hull who started the thread later posted saying that he shouldn't have given it that title, which suggested he was saying all Americans did such things, because he wasn't menaing that.

I doubt that John saw starting the tread as a way of giving news, but rather of wanting to talk about some item of news that had worried him, the way you do with friends.
.....................................................
As to why that dance group decided America was the place to go, or rather, stay, well it's surely the place with the biggest number of Cubans in the world, other than Cuba itself, so where else would they want to go? It does seem more like show business than anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

Ebbie, interesting link. The peers, by the way, do not argue that he didn't violate the law, but rather that either the law is wrong or there were extenuating circumstances. The extenuating circumstances involved are battle stress, which I think is pretty valid.

Another comrade says "I would have done it too, becuase you can't trust these insurgents," a suggestion that the law of war isn't a perfect tool for situations like this. That's a little shakier, but still has some validity.

So I think the guy will be investigated and probably punished. Probably extenuating circumstances (he had just been shot himself the previous day) will be taken into account and he will be treated leniently.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:04 PM

I don't blame a kid who has been trained, equipped and sent to kill - in a place where he might be killed at any moment - doing whatever killing he or she thinks is necessary to live through that hell and make it home alive.

But I sure as shit blame the fuckers who sent him or here there, and put him or her in that awful situation based on a lie, or greed, or the word of their God, or just plain stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

And the other question is, how were wounded prisoners (they had been disarmed by the previous unit it appears) left unguarded and uncared for? There is an obligation to look after people once they have surrendered.

I would think the soldier who did the killing will claim that, since they weren't in any kind of military custody, he was entitled to think they were still hostile. And that could be quite a good defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:24 PM

I do not condone what the Marine did. If he indeed did what is purported. I just figured he needed an investigation by the authorities and the courtesy of a trial before he was shot.

And as far as my inference on freedom being attributed to the English and our fighting with them against Germany. Wrong war Mr. McGrath. I was talking about the one where we threw the British out of here so we could be free. I have no investment in your freedom, except as it pertains to here.

And as a former Marine I can tell you that in my experience and the experiences of the Marines I know serving in Iraq today, it is an isolated incident. And if, if I say again, he did this he will spend a lot of time in a federal prison. Just like the jerks who did things like this in other wars. If this Marine shot a prisoner he dishonors his country, his Corps, and me personally. If he did this he will be put away. And that is the concensus of every combat Marine I know.

We, as Marines, are incensed by this and I never inferred that I was looking the other way. I was inferring that there is always a thread or two about how bad we Americans are - but where are the other threads? Silent apathy is still that - apathy. War like behavior needs to be changed. But until it is we, Americans, will deal with our abherrent people with justice and not perenial inferences of guilt from any one individual or country.

That's my opinion - add artbrooks to it and it makes for a very nice day! I've no bone with anyone here - just to clarify that I'm not trolling or trying to start a fight - I'm simply presenting another point of view.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

'Appalled' does NOT equate to 'apathy', Steve. But I do understand what you are saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:26 PM

But the real question, as I see it is the one i raised last time - why weren't these wounded prisoners being treated the way prisoners are bing supposed to be treated? Rather than being left around for what could even have been a tragic misundersanding by a squaddie thinking in terms of booby traps and so forth.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM

From all reports, they were wounded and given immediate first aid by a group of fast-moving troops. Who knows...maybe the ones who left them there intended to go back but were all killed around the next corner. Shit happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:56 PM

True - but that the first question that any inquiry should be looking into. An army with an overwhelming superiority in numbers really ought be able to be able to cope with prisoners without too much difficulty.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:06 PM

I was talking about the one where we threw the British out of here so we could be free.

An overly simplistic (one might say simple-minded)and naive view of the realities of the American Revolution.

"We" WERE "the British"- among other things.

You may or may not know about the Marines, but you sure as hell don't know history.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

It's so easy for you UKers to bash America.

It must be hard everyday waking up in a second rate country.

There.

Deal with it. I am just sick of you pukes who have nothing to do but bash America on this American web site.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

Now he's no longer in the cabinet, they can send Colin Powell to investigate. He'll doubtless reportback as he did on My Lai- nothing to the charges, completely groundless.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:26 PM

Let's get real here, folks...

Ummmmm, sure the US guity of war crimes but like who is going to arrest US????

No one, that's who.

Why?

Do you have to ask?

Face it. The way that the US views war crimes is that they are for the *other folks*. Not US...

Yeah, you can throw out the Geneva rules on the US. If they wanta torture prisoners they just jet them to a country, like Syria or Egypt, and have it done there. This is very much in violation of the Geneva Convention.

But. like who is gonna arrest US?

Canada?

Switzerland?

Norway?

Well, I got news for Mr Bush and Ms. Rice and the rest of these folks who are trying to build this new American Empire. They will be held accountable. Maybe not in this life but God has somethin' waitin' fir 'um....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM

Doug, when my country does something good, I am proud. When it does something bad, I say so. Period. The problem with you conservatives is, you never see the bad, you have tunnel vision.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

Well said Kendall.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

From the Fourth Geneva Convention:


"Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are."


Are the mmember here ready to tell me that the "insurgents", "Terrorists", etc are acting in a manner that indicates THEY are bound by the Geneva Convention? If not, THEY have forfieted the rights that you seem to give them.

The problem with some people here is that they do not have an understanding of what they are talking about. If members of the US forces commit acts that are illegal under the UCMJ, they will be procequted: Where are the requests that the other side be held to international law, if you feel that they are justified in murdering civilians, taking hostages, and "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;" ?

I have no problem in a discussuin of the possible war crimes being commited, but it seem sto me that it is bigotry of the worst sort to only talk about the isolated cases on one side, and ignore the massive number of crimes being committed by the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:10 PM

The UCMJ is one type of 'trial'. Having the offenders of both sides brought before an international court would certainly make a difference IMO. An American soldier being tried by his/her military makes as much sense as a terrorist being tried by the country that harbours him/her.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:12 PM

Now some of the silent majority who just read the threads are coming to the defense of America. They are tired of seeing the rantings of those who want to see America defeated.

When the terrorists go by the Geneva Convention they might get treated the same way. They are not an army. The Geneva Convention applies to war between armys.

I want to see America succeed and win the war on terrorism.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:14 PM

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) is not a trial. It is a set of laws, passed by the US Congress, which regulate the conduct of members of the US military. It is said that the innocent are better off if tried under the UCMJ, while the guilty are more likely to be let off by a civilian court.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

America defetas itself when if falls to the level of terrorists...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

Thus I wrote it this way: "The UCMJ is one type of 'trial'."


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) is the bedrock of military law. The UCMJ is a federal law, enacted by Congress. Articles 77 through 134 of the UCMJ are known as the "punitive articles," -- that is, specific offenses which, if violated, can result in punishment by court-martial.

The law requires the Commander-in-Chief (The President of the United States) to implement the provisions of the UCMJ. The President does this via an executive order known as the "Manual for Court Martial" (MCM). Chapter 4 of the MCM includes, and expands on the punitive articles. The MCM divides the punitive articles into six parts: The text, elements of the offense, an explanation, lesser included offenses, maximum permissible punishments, and sample specifications.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:46 PM

If it's a "war on terrorism" the first thing is to stop the people you actually command acting as terrorists.

That at least ought to be common ground between us. There is room for dispute as to whether some action might be war crime or not, but there can be no disagreement that war crimes ought to be prveneted and oubnished, whoever commits them.

The International War Crimes Trubunal only exists to try war crimes where the counties concerned are unable or unwilling to deal with them. By refusing to accede to this court form its own citizens the USA has in effect pledge that it will carry out its of bringing to trial any of its citizens reasonably accused of such crimes, and punishing them appropriately, if they are found guilty.

This would, of course, in any case, have meant that the International War Crimes Tribunal would not have been involved, even if it did have jurisdiction.

In the past, notably in the case of Vietnam the United States has on many people's eyes failed to act in this way. No doubt it will do better in future, and will fulfil this important duty. And it would seem to me that any patriotic American would see it that way, and would see this as one of the ways in which America can give the rest of the world a good example of how a democracy can function.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:04 PM

Torture and other violent acts on people of nonsignatory nations just 'because we can' is harmful beyond measure to ourselves. Most of these men and women will eventully return home. "What did you do in the war, Daddy?"


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM

Ebbie,

ANd it is against the UMCJ. But you notice the US is prosecuting violators- Have you seen AANY trials by the terrorists?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:23 PM

MGH:

I define terrorism as the acts of the opposition to Democracy in Iraq.

These actions include broadcasting videotaped threats to kill all Americans and beheading of civilian hostages.

This is not what the Coalition forces are doing.

Liberal wimps, sympathetic to the terrorist "cause", have a way of defining the actions of soldiers in a war as terrorist acts. Then they claim the actions of terrorists are acts of self defense and perfectly acceptable.

May you become a casualty of a terrorist's action to defend himself. May you plead for your life and scream horribly whie you head is being removed. Then you will know the true definition of terrorism.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:30 PM

Ya just don't lissen do ya. No one here has been saying that the 'terrorists' and 'insurgents' are doing good things. We ARE saying that we expect more from our side.

As far as trials in Iraq go, I haven't heard that the court system is up and running. Hard to do when you yourself are running.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:36 PM

Ebbie,

And I DO expect more. WHICH I SEE- there have been , and continue to be trials of those who violate the UCMJ.

BUT THIS THREAD is blaming the US for the actions of individuals, yet not placing any blame at all upon the actions of the other side. As I said, this is blatent propaganda for the terrorists. If you want to discuss war crimes, fine- but try to at least pretend that you have a balanced viewpoint.

And how about trials in any of the other countries where Al-Quida exists? WHere is the moaning from the Islamic pulpits about the war crimes being committed in the name of Islam? I hear a vast silence.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:42 PM

Unless I attend 'Islamic pulpits" I don't expect to hear much discussion of the Muslim side. I have no way of knowing what they say or think, other than what is reported in the media.

BeardedBruce, if you have the time check back and see what has been said here about both the Iraqi crimes and the Coalition crimes (I'm assuming there have been some dodgy actions by other members of the Coalition. At least if it is war tension that is allowing this to happen.) Then come back and tell us when and where we on the Mudcat have condoned or approved any Iraqi crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM

Likely the reason for the vast silence is that if ya speak up, ya take a long long vacation real soon afterwards.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:49 PM

Sure, Beardedbruce, we have seen "trials" by the terrorists. They are called beheadings.

Equating the scum that the coalition forces are defeating in Iraq with the brave young soldiers of many nations who are defeating them is sickening. McGrath is concerned about he lack of humanity (as he defines it) shown to wounded terrorists is way off base in my opinion. The terrorists are scum of the earth and have to be eradicated, wounded or not.

There will be a brief pause while McGrath, Ebbie, Bobert, Greg F. and all the other apologists for the terrorist sympathizers observe a moment of silence for my condemded soul.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:02 PM

I've never been to hear a sermon in a mosque. I know that there have been sermons in mosques denouncing terrorism. I knon there have also been sermons in churches denouncing terrorism including terrorism carried out by "our side".

Terrorism, in my definition - and it's a definition consistent with how the word has been frequently used, and with its origin describing the activities of governments - is activity which is aimed at achieving some political or military objective by the use of methods which intentionally kill or injure non-combatants and innocent citizens.

Taking people prisoner and killing them is terrorism. Exploding bombs aimed at killing civilians is terrorism. People who organise such activities are terrorists.

That applies to the people on "the other side", of course it does. But nobody here is saying that they are right to do these things. There are people who apparently believe that it is right when "our side" does them.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:06 PM

Doug, you flatter yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:08 PM

Fellas - please name one, just one, liberal wimp terrorist sympathizer. Just one.

Last time I was railing at one of my kids for something they had done wrong, I didn't stop and fully excuse them when they pointed out that someone else had done something worse.

That's called the "But Billy spit in the salad bar" defense. You're too smart to fall for that aren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:10 PM

"He pushed me back first!"


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM

"We ARE saying that we expect more from our side"

No. You are labeling our troops as terrorists.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:29 PM

Yo, Dougie,

Since when does defending ones homeland get you the tag of "scum"?

In Falluga, the US took 1000 prisoners and of them, 985 of them were Itagis. Like where are all these foriegn fighters?

Scum?

Like what would you do if Iraq was the one with the big superior military with a lot of nukes and they were trying to take over yer town? Yeah, answer me that one, if you will...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:34 PM

War itself, if not a crime, is a bloody shame. It's mostly about money and global positioning today. One has to ask how the US and Britain will recoup their economic losses in this war, and that begs some awkward questions, IMO.

However, there are enough folks on both sides to keep the war going, and that's a good thing I guess. Right? RIGHT?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:48 PM

McGrath, Ebbie, Bobert, Greg F. and all the other apologists for the terrorist sympathizers...

Whew! FLASHBACK! for a moment there I could have SWORN it was old Tailgunner Joe himself speaking....

but its only one of his disciples.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:02 AM

"Yep - let's beat up America over one incident and ignore why America is there."

some people can't understand plain english. here it is in small words...

we (the"coalition") are supposed to be fighting a "war on terror"... we are supposed to be "the good guys", the "liberators"... we have rules of war and geneva conventions that we signed onto (we were not forced to sign them or tricked into signing them)... we need to observe those rules to maintain any sense of "moral high ground" EVEN WHEN THE OTHER SIDE DOESN'T... because if we don't, then that makes us JUST LIKE THEM and then the TERRORISTS WIN... are you guys with me so far?

we can only control our own actions...we can't make the "terrorists" have trials or fight "fair"...so when our guys break the rules they must be called to account EVEN THO THE OTHER SIDE DOES THINGS JUST AS BAD OR WORSE... because we're the great and powerful land that everyone wants to come to we have to do the RIGHT THING...otherwise we're ACTING JUST LIKE THE BAD GUYS and if we do that, we're not the good guys anymore we're just the guys with more guns.

"I was inferring that there is always a thread or two about how bad we Americans are - but where are the other threads?"

Let's see, how about...terrorism is bad...let's kill everybody in iraq...those who beheaded should be beheaded themselves...what threads are you proposing exactly? and why don't you start them if you feel there's a lacking? what we're talking about are things that are part of our sphere of influence that we might be able to affect. i don't think any islamic terrorists care what we think but other americans and free-thinking moral people might be interested and willing to discuss these issues without trying to end the discussion by calling names like "terrorist sympathisers" and the like.

"Where are the requests that the other side be held to international law..."

since the US refuses to be bound by the international court why would you think any one else should be?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM

"As far as trials in Iraq go, I haven't heard that the court system is up and running."

EXACTLY! At this point, it seems the U.S. is judge and jury in Iraq. Who do you expect to try the terrorists for war crimes? Are they entitled to a jury of their peers?

As far as the U.S. goes, we can and do hold them accountable for their actions in Iraq and in any country they invade. We are their peers. We are entitled to speak out - in fact it is our duty!

I think we all should remember that during the American Revolution, the British complained bitterly that the U.S. soldiers did not play according to the rules of conventional warfare. They operated more like guerillas and snipers - they could have been called insurgents. It was the only way they could fight a force that was bigger and more organized. Why do you suppose they won their independence?

d


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:48 AM

A very good point Dianavan. The yanks did fine when they hid in trenches, behind walls and swamps and up trees with their squirrel guns, and when the French navy helped them out; a shame that the 'freedom' they go on and on about didn't include native peoples and blacks, whom the wicked ol' British emancipated years earlier than they did, and without a major civil war; pretty first rate I would say.

With regard to the Falluja incident, I'm afraid my first reaction was 'who gives a shit?' This was because I had just heard that Margaret Hassan had been shot through the head in cold blood. I am passionately anti-war and despise Bush and his lot who bear the responsibility for it, so this reaction of mine shocked me and (to me)is indicative of the depths to which the world seems to be sliding.

Even more scary is that my cooler judgemnt is still 'who gives a shit'. I can't really work up real indignation about it. It says something for the absolute depravity of the insurgents when I can see the point of view of triggy-happy American macho men.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:29 AM

So throwing us Brits out of America was Good and Patriotic and Freedomfighting. Remind us again why America is in Iraq. Of course Weapons of Mass Destruction. No, No, No we didn't mean he had them we meant he'd like to have them and use them on us and anyway Saddam must be removed because he's killed so many Iraqis. (Does he still hold the high score in that game) and anyway the country is a total haven for foriegn terrorist, well it is now and anyway my Daddy should have done it and I WANT THAT OIL. I'm American therefore I AM RIGHT.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:32 AM

God I feel miserable. I don't WANT to hate as much as I did for an hour after I heard about Margaret Hassan, or view gratuitous shootings with indifference. My emotions just cancelled out my political ideas. Damn this bloody war!


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:24 AM

One thing to remember about Margaret Hassan is that she was consistently and passionately opposed to sanctions on the things that ordinary Iraqis desperately needed, and opposed to the war, and believed that both would cause terrible harm to the people and the country she loved.

Whoever killed her it was an atrocity which will be remembered in the same way as the shooting of Edith Cavill in the Great War, and Nurs Cavill's words could have been spoken by Margaret Hassan: "Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone."

We can be certain that the last thing Margaret Hassan would have wanted was for her murder to be used to encourage and support the very kind of violence and hatred that she spent her life trying to counter.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:58 AM

The terrorists are scum of the earth and have to be eradicated, wounded or not.

Doug, if your heart doesn't tell you that it is wrong to shoot wounded and defenseless people wehatever they might have done before use the brain. It is not only a crime, it is also a mistake in that fight. It will make more enemies and less friends.

Uncle Sam, some (I, for instance) can wish that the USA win the war against terror and therefore object to brutalities of this type.

Too many people here who are partially blind or deaf: They only want to complain about one side's crimes. A US (British,...) crime would only be made the theme of a thread by the one part of the posters, a Muslim (insurgents, terrorists,...) only by another part.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 09:30 AM

At last, the voice of reason. Doesn't surprise me that it is my old cyber friend Wolfgang.

As usual, I hear many voices that have never experienced the kind of gut wrenching terror that is pitched combat. They lack the ability to put themselves in the mind of a 20 year old terrified kid who is watching death all around him, and wonder if he will live long enough to try and recapture his or her lost youth.

It is disengenous to suggest that many here don't take every opportunity to castigate the US, but forget about mass gassings, beheadings of aid workers, weapons stores in holy places, and using civilian human shields. I don't care how you cut it, the simple facts are that these "freedom fighters" are trying to preserve a way of life that was oppressive and murderous in the same way that the Nazi's were.

As usual, I hear the voices of those that are so lost in partisanship that they can't see that we are creating more terrorists than we are killing. I hear voices that have forgotten the old American ideal of service with honor. These voices will alibi any behaviour on the pretext that these people do far worse. You have forgotten that one of the things that made America different in the world was our willingness to fight evil without becoming evil. No matter how you cut it, it is wrong, it is sinful, to shoot an unarmed, wounded combatant. And spare your talk about being a liberal apologists. There are a few, but very few, among you that can match your experiences with mine.

It is a time for reason. And intellectual honesty. I see that in Wolfgang. I see it in some of you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM

All this talk of "terrorist" "insurgent" "freedom fighter"

Of course the Iraqis who fight the invaders are "terrorists".
It is a major part of their strategy.
They are fighting against the worlds strongest military power, tanks aircraft and heavy artillery against rifles.

How did the Free French and the Italian Partizans fight against the Nazis?   With boxing gloves?

I read with amazement, a report in one of the newspapers where an American commander was berating the rebels for cowardice, "why dont they come out and fight fair".....The mind boggles

However debate is un-necessary, as in every other conflict the "terrorists almost always win....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:59 PM

Fighting against invaders, that isn't terrorism, and nor is fighting against insurgents. It's just a very unpleasant type of warfare. But deliberately targetting civilians, and killing prisoners, that is terrorism.

The one spills over into the other, but there is a distinction. Terrorist acts such as those are war crimes, whoever does them. It would be perfectly appropriate for the people who do those things to be tried for it in a War Crimes tribunal. It would not be appropriate for the same to be done for people who had taken part in irregular warfare, without resorting to terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM

McGrath its all a matter of definition...
Would the destruction of civilian areas, as in Fallujah,or the incendiary bombing of Dresden and Cologne be defined as "terrorism"..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

The purpose of bombing is two-fold:

1) Destroy targets
2) Break the will of the people to continue fighting

It is not of and by itself terrorism, although terror may result from the bombing. It is war. War. War.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

I'd say that they should be, akenaton. They are, on the face of, it war crimes. But just because the perpetrators will probably get away with it, as victors in war normally do, does not mean that actions such as the murder of Margaret Hassan was in any sense a justifiable act of resistance to an invasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Big Mick, I hear you. I cannot match your experience, but I was attempting to acknowledge the lad's own situation when I pointed out that extenuating circumstances applied (he was scared shitless after having been shot the previous day) and that the Law of war is not a perfect instrument to deal with situatuions like an urban insurgency. As i said, I suspect if he is found to have acted wrongfully he will be treated leniently.

Beardedbruce:

"Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are."

Both the US and Iraq are parties to the Geneva Conventions. So I'm not sure why you quoted this passage and then accused people of not knowing what they are talking about. There are passages of the conventions that would make more sense for you to quote. In specific, the US is not in fact at war with Iraq; the militia members are not representing the Iraqi state, though they are Iraqi nationals. So there is some question as to whether the Geneva conventions are relevant; while the US as a state is at war, Iraq as a state is not.

But one could argue that the current "government" of Iraq is merely a puppet regime established by the US, and the US HAS been occupying Iraq since it attacked the state of Iraq under Hussein, so is this not the same war? Until there are elections, the Iraqi state as far as the conventions are concerned would have to be the state that was party to the conventions. These wounded Iraqis are nationals of that state and thus would count as protected people under the conventions.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Of course the Iraqis who fight the invaders are "terrorists". It is a major part of their strategy. (Ake)

I agree for the insurgents who are Iraqis and who actually fight the invaders. I have some kind of respect for them.

However, (1) there are a couple of non-Iraqis involved with a completely different agenda and (2) all too often they (including Iraqis now) do not fight against the invaders but target deliberately civilians and other Iraqis. I have no respect for them.

Deliberately targetting civilians, and killing prisoners, that is terrorism sounds like a good working definition to me.

If I take that definition Americans are not without blame, but most of the blame in my eyes rests with the insurgents.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM

Reading between the lines on the murder of Mrs Hassan,it would appear that her death is the responsibility of criminals seeking to "sell" her on to "insurgent" groups.
When al Zarqawi called for Mrs Hassan to be freed, the group holding her obviously decided to kill her and go into hiding.

al zarqawi wants to terrorise foreign workers and governments in an attempt to hinder the Wests bid to set up a puppet government and phony democracy.
He obviously realised that to kill someone who was loved by ordinary Iraqis would be counter productive.

So I dont think the unfortunate death of Mrs Hassan could be called terrorism in the accepted sense..


Brucie ,hope all is well with you....
Would not an "attempt to break the will of the people to continue fighting" be construed as terrorism,if it involved slaughter of civilians and destruction of their homes.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

I suspect none of us, even those of you who have experienced similar circumstances, can put ourselves in the boots of the young man who fired the shot. I expect, under those circumstances, each situation is different.

This enemy does not fight by the same rules, however, that those of you who are so critical of the young Marine, expect from the coalition forces. Yes, Mick, it is well and good to lecture us "do not knows because we haven't been there" guys, but I hazard a guess that even you couldn't predict what you would do under similar circumstances. This is an enemy that plants booby traps on the dead and wounded. Perhaps that young Marine thought the wounded man was a threat ...had a grenade or other type weapon hidden from view.

I think we have to wait until we know the facts. The Marines will not whitewash the incident, I'm sure. The press won't allow that. If the young man is in the wrong, he should be punished. However, the circumstances of the situation must be taken into account.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

Wolfgang....I dont suppose Mr al Zarqawi cares whether you or I "respect" him, and he certainly does not respect Western society or any of us who live by its rules.
People like Zarqawi, Stalin, Churchill,Bush, firmly believe that the "end justifies the means"...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

One more thing:why do those so quick to condem this young man fail to rise similarly in anger at the terrorists who lop of the heads of their captives? Instead, when the terrorists behead someone they have kidnapped, your anger is turned on the U. S. and the coalition partners for invading Iraq! And they are NOT insurgents over there in Iraq, they are Muslim terrorists from all over the Muslim world. If it was an insurgency, all of the forces fighting the coalition forces would be Iraqis. They are not. My dictionary defines a insurgent as:"Rising in nonbelligerent revolt against civil authority or a government in power." These guys aren't insurgents, they are Terrorists! Anyone who thinks they are not belliberent is just not tuned in.
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:12 PM

Doug...You are so naive.
Of course the soldier who was filmed murdering the Iraqi will be diciplined.   But his main crime will be in getting caught.
Im sure when the cameras were safely switched off there would be many Iraqi fighters put"out of their misery",whether they were a threat or not.
I have spoken to veterans of Korea who said that "if it moved they killed it" getting medical assistance for the enemy was out of the question.

As Brucie said ,the real monster is War itself ......and who started the War ..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

First off, Doug, I do know how I would act because I have been in a situation so close as to be scary. Second, of course every case is different, as is every persons response, and that was my point. I don't give a shit if you don't like to be from the standpoint of "those who haven't had the experience". It happens to be a fact, as any combat vet can tell you.

Finally, while I understand how this happens, I must tell you that unless something comes out in the investigation that mitigates what the video seems to show, there is no excuse for the killing. I have more empathy for this young man than one could ever imagine. But barring something that is not evident, this was not a "good kill".

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

And the underlying truth always is that none of this would be happening if there hadn't been an invasion of Iraq by the USA and a handful of allies. Iraq, however deeply unpleasant it's government was, had nothing whatsoever to do with any attacks on the people who attacked her.

And elections to set up a new Iraqi givernment could have been held months ago, but were delayed, for what appear to have been domestic US political motives, allowing opposition to the occupation to be diverted into insurgency, and permitting people who are genuine international terrorists to get a foothold, and to use it to recruit and win support from people who, in normal circumnstances, would find their agenda laughable and repulsive.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:37 PM

"And they are NOT insurgents over there in Iraq, they are Muslim terrorists from all over the Muslim world."

according to a report in the LA Times, the american authorities determined that out of over 1000 prisoners from the falluja battle, 15 were from outside iraq. that's FIFTEEN out of one thousand. this is a figure reported by the american authorities. doesn't that give the lie to the idea that all these fighters are imported?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:53 PM

There are reports that in the week leading up to the assult on Falluja that Iragi men of fighting age weren't allowed to leave. The women, elderly and children were. Like what was that about? Now, if yer a man you are turned back to the killing fields...

Think about this for a minute...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM

on CBC radio's As it Happens last night, a marine commander
was interviewed and said that he actually hadnt seen any wounded Iraqis - they were all dead (when asked about how the wounded Iraqi insurgents are being treated)

When asked whether this meant a 'take no prisoner' policy he explained that theyre just more willing to die..


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM

Ake:

You are correct about that remark to me; just that I see terrorism as something separate. I guess I can explain it like this: If the spin-off benefit of a barrage or bomb run (etc) is terror in the civilian population, that's a good thing. But I don't call that specifically terrorism. Just the bonus ya get with explosives that don't really care who they kill.

Terrorists set out to target civilians to generate the terror they do.

I realize this is hair-splitting, and I certainly don't think either is a good thing. But I do think they are both different things. Maybe like the state killing someone the state has decided needs capital punishment as opposed to a lone individual deciding a person needs to be killed--then doing it. They are both murder, but one is and one isn't called that.

(Trust you're doing well, my friend.)


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:29 PM

I'll take Macho trigger happy shoot first and ask questions later men over liberal elite scaredy cat crybaby girlie men like you terrorist sympathizers any day.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM

In what unit are you, Uncle Sam?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM

Yo Unc,

Like if it were the Iraqis who had the big military machine and it was the Iraqis who were gettin' ready to take yer home town and you decided that you didn't have no beeef with the Iraqis and you wanted to take yer family outta yer home town before the Iraqis killed everything livin' in it and you got to the outskirts of town with yer family with everything you have worked a life time to own an' an Iraqi said to you, "Your wife and kids can cross... but you gotta go back and face the music".... Like how would you feel?

Think this is hypothetical?

Think again...

Most of the folks that your military has killed in Itaq were folks purdy much like yourself...

Wow....

Think about it, Uncle Sam, think about it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:53 PM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 11:04 PM

sorry, cross posted Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:31 AM

Let's get some thing straight here! Those on this thread who are throwing taunts at "those who aren't bitching about Margaret Hassan" ALL were "bitching" [even some of the Bushites] from the day the news broke of her abduction. Even the character who claims to have organised the resistance in Falluja disclaimed any part in her kidnapping, and claimed that no Muslim should deliberately do harm to any woman or child. That this good woman's murder is an abominable eventuality is agreed by all. What is truly tragic is the fact that this can be used by brainless [and probably gutless] characters who wish to score some kind of point over anti-war people. That such things occurred in Iraq BEFORE the "coalition of the willing" began to ravage the countyside may be true , once every other year, say. But there is NO doubt just what has given these murderers the opportunity to give vent to their evil urges. Do I need to draw a picture?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM

I agree completely about Zarqawi, Ake.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: RichM
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM

As the practice of war continued to develop in the 20th century, it's obvious that targetting of civilians became standard practice.
War was no longer a formal contest between elite professional units.

Everyone on or near the battlefield now is a potential targets.

Some good friends claim that crimes committed by soldiers should be hidden or minimized, lest it give comfort to the enemy.

IMO, acknowledging,examining such disputed events should be the rule. Make sure that soldiers follow these rules.

On the other hand, if the rules of engagement are a hindrance, then stand up for your beliefs, and push to change the rules.

Otherwise, you condone great damage to whatever ethics you and your society claim to believe in.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM

McGrath is right.   None of this would be happening if the USA had not invaded Iraq.   Sadaam would still be in charge murdering and raping hundreds of thousands of people.    Iraq scientists would still be working on developing WMD's and selling them to terrorists. (as reported in David Kay report) Iraq woman would have no rights.   Everyone would still be living in fear.   Sadaam would still be stealing billions from the Oil for Food program and building new palaces and statues while his people starve.   In short, Iraq would be a utopia with little children flying kites in the streets.   I know this from watching the Michale Moore film.

I guess some of us americans think differently.   Maybe because we don't set limits on people.   I understand that Prince Charlley said that people in England should understand their limitations and realize that they can't all be successfull or have wonderful carreers.   Now I understand why people in Great Britain have dilutions of mediocrity.   It all starts from the top.   If Charley is the best you got, mediocrity is a pretty good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 03:58 PM

Larry:

At your age you should know better.

1) Saddam is no longer ruling in Iraq.
2) The WMDs are not there.
3) The US and its allies are still there.

Was gibst?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM

"Sadaam would still be in charge murdering and raping hundreds of thousands of people."

Yes, didn't you know Saddam was raping hundreds of thousands of people?

This is the sort of silly comment that people make when they have ceased to apply any reason to a situation.

BTW, Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians ONLY if by "murdered" you mean that his policies, his military and security personnel killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. By this definition of "murder," there are probably only two living heads of state of whom it could be said that they murdered over 100,000 Iraqi civilians. One is Saddam. The other is George W. Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

Oh, if only the United States of America had "dilutions of mediocrity. "


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:57 PM

Yeah, I rather have Saddam back in power and my country's attention turned back to the War on Terrorism. We're less safe now that the noecons have destabilized the entire Middle East...

And as fir the Saddam-was-a-bad-man-and-raped-and-killed-his-own-people blah, blah, blah, I am not at all comforted by the fact that now the US military is doing it for him...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM

Odd isn't it, that the most vocal of the Mudcat veterans here, choose not to tell us what their actual military/combat experience is that use to bludgeon people over the head with in these sorts of heated debates?

Why should anyone give their opinions any more credence than anyone else's? I mean, for all we know they could be a bunch of military wannabe types.

As to the difference between Marine murdering the wounded combatant, and the Hassan beheading, I would posit there is a difference of a few degrees only: one of the victims was a civilian and the other (presumably) chose to be a soldier in this war. But both of them, I'm sure, felt they were contributing to the welfare of the Iraqi people the best way they could.

Both killings are despicable. That is a no brainer. But from the looks of it, the Marine summarily executed a wounded prisoner of war, which is against all morality and reason, regardless of boobytrapped bodies. Hysteria of battle or not isn't a defense. That Marine knew from his training that booby trapped bodies are a reality of war, just like he knew from his training that executing wounded prisoners of war is against the Geneva conventions, and you can't rationalize that reality out of existence just because the other guy's army isn't a signatory. So that line of reasoning is irrelevant too.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:19 PM

Sorry, I meant to add that an execution is an execution, whether it is a beheading for the Al Jazeera cameras or executing a wounded, dying man by blowing off his head at very close range for the NBC cameras.

There is no difference in the barbarity of the acts. None. Both are barbaric executions of defenseless human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:25 PM

I'll take Macho trigger happy shoot first and ask questions later men over liberal elite scaredy cat crybaby girlie men...

That is precisely the way in which terrorists think, I'm afraid. I am quite sure that Timothy McVeigh would have wholly agreed with those words.

As for Saddam - he was an evil man, and the most evil things he did were done while he was a valued friend of the USA, supported to the hilt. By the time of the invasion he was greatly weakened and vulnerable. With a massive army poised to invade, his rule was crumbling, he was accepting a whole string of concessions. There seems very good reason to believe that he could have been brought to make a deal that removed him from power, before too long. It would have required patience and determination.

There was no valid military reason whatsoever for launching the invasion at the it was launched. The military build-up was not yet complete even. The only apparent reason for launching the attack at that time, rather than wait anither six months or even a year was that this would have meant problems with Bush's re-election plans. That is not in itself an acceptable reason for killing thousands of people, and for launching a war without any clear understanding of what was entailed, and without any clearly thought-out exit strategy.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: mg
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM

They have so much respect for the Muslims and other religions of Fallujah that they are freeing them at the cost of their own lives. Fifty one of them. Maybe they got it wrong. But their intentions are exactly that. And how do the wise ones of the world know who is unarmed and armed in a split second? You gotta be smarter than me for sure, but then most of you think you are. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

Judging by the pictures that have come out. the Marine was well aware that the wounded man was NOT boobytrapped. Had he been and killed at such close range, the resulting explosion would in all likelhood have taken out the Marines standing in the area.

In the same way I will always believe that our government knew very well that Saddam did NOT have WMD or they would not have invaded. They knew Korea and Iran did have weapons that could have been used against us - and they didn't go there.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM

Mary,

I do NOT think anyone here is supporting Muslims per se. People seem to be saying that the US ought to get the heck out--and others are saying it has no right to be there, that's all. The thread title is that "America commits war crimes." Yes, America does. All countries do in war. ALL countries. Saying America doesn't is tripe. Wars that Canada has been in have resulted in crimes, and those crimes have been committed by my countrymen. In this case, YOUR countryman committed a crime. Iraqis have committed them too. War allows that to happen.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:24 AM

I forgot candy ass.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:25 AM

No you didn't forget 'candy ass'. You just posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

For what it's worth, GUEST 18 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM, it's because I can see a setup fairly easily. I know you think you are smarter than us simpletons, but I will choose what I am going to share and with who. And this is more of your "I am not going to respond" but still respond stuff.

I will be watching this case very closely, because I do agree with GUEST on one issue. Killing defenseless people, whether they were combatants or not, is not what honorable warriors do. When this type of thing is done, it completely blows the "moral superiority" angle that the administration tries to take. Events like this, or Abu Ghraib, only lend credence to the arguments against our actions.

Having said that, I will withhold judgement until all the facts are presented. This young man is going through experiences that idealistic Quixote's like GUEST have no frame of reference to understand.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

"And how do the wise ones of the world know who is unarmed and armed in a split second?"

You don't. That is the very nature of combat, and that is why soldiers train. And they ARE NOT trained to do what that Marine appears to have done, which is to summarily execute a defenseless human being.

That said, we also know that there is a military double standard that says "fuck the rules" and that allows atrocities to occur fairly often, anytime the military is engaged in combat, anywhere in the world. Especially military and paramilitary organizations that know you can usually get away with committing atrocities. Every soldier who engages in committing atrocities knows they might be caught, but that it is highly unlikely that they will be, or if they are caught, that there will be any negative consequences for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

The Insurgents are cutting people's heads off for god's sake! We have to fight fire with fire. If I had been that young marine I would have shot the bugger from 50yards away!


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM

The insurgents have to resort to that sort of tactic, they don't have any jet fighters, helicopters, tanks, etc etc to fight back with, super ted.

This was never going to be a fair fight, because you have the most powerful military in the world beating up on a third world paramilitary fighting an occupation of their country.

How exactly is beheading people one at a time (which certainly keeps the casualty numbers down) more barbaric than bombing an entire nation into oblivion?

It is because of attitudes like yours, super ted, and mary garvey's, that we need the Geneva conventions, and to police the military.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Another thing Larry K - You are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan when you talk about "Iraqi women having no rights". But, as a probable Fox News viewer, it is understandable that you would conflate the two.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:50 PM

Nerd: if those thousands of dead Iraqis dug up from the mass graves discovered by coalition troops in Iraq were not placed their by Saddam and his policies, who killed and buried them? They were killed long before there was an invasion of Iraq!

And Bobert, you claim to care for human life but assert that you wish things were as they were in Iraq before the invasion. Anything hypocritic about that statement? Hmmmm?

Larry K: good post.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:58 PM

Gee Larry - We don't know who the people in the mass graves were and we don't know who killed them. As a matter of fact, we don't even know how long they were there. Do you have any credible references?

For all I know, they may have been killed during the first Gulf War.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

Well, we know one thing for sure, and that is the US has taken over the job of butchering Iraqis for Saddam...I'd say the US has done a great job of catching up w/Saddam in the senseless slaughter department since March 2003.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM

"We have to fight fire with fire." As Osama Bin-Ladin would no doubt say.

Actually what does that metaphor mean in this kind of war? "We must kill the people who might be recruited by the enemy, before they can join the enemy"? - because that is how, in a firefighting situaton, you do actually "use fire to fight fire". I don't really think it is an applicable metaphor for any would-be civilised fighting force.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

Yeah, Dougie, I do care for human life and there nothin' hypocritical about havin' quite a lot of resentment fir Bush wastin' over 100,000 of our fellow earthlings over oil and politics... Are going to tell me that Saddam would have killed 100,000 of his own countryman over the same amount of time since the beginning of the invasion? Hmmmmmm? I think maybe you need a session with the Wes Ginny Slide Rule.

Yeah, I am a humanitarian and Bush isn't. He let innocent folks be executed in Texas with tahe same little gleeful smirk that we see when he challenges folks to "bring it on" and kill and injure my   American brothers and sisters of the working class...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

DougR,

You might want to read a post before you disagree with it in knee-jerk fashion. At 18 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM I agreed that Saddam HAD, in fact, murdered those people if you define murder as allowing them to be killed by your security forces. I then merely pointed out that there is another living head of state who ALSO has murdered over 100,000 Iraqi civilians, using the same definition of "murder." That head of state is George W. Bush.

The part of Larry's post I said was silly was the claim that Saddam had RAPED hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Finally, there isn't really THAT much evidence as to who killed the people in the mass graves, and whether they were in part Gulf War I victims.

More importantly, it is likely that some of them were Kurds who George Bush I encouraged to rebel by suggesting he would back the rebellion. Then he screwed them royally by leaving them to their fate while continuing to aid Saddam. So I'm not sure those murders are free and clear of American influence, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM

Any attempts to present Saddam Hussain in a positive light or to justify the actions of the insurgents are utterly PATHETIC. That said, Mcgrath is completely correct in pointing out that none of this would have happened if not for this illegal, immoral and unneccessary war. 'But Saddam was killing people!' I hear you cry. Well, none of that would have happened if the Yanks hadn't helped put him there. Iraq would perhaps have been a normal Middle-Eastern country (where people are murdered, oppressed and tortured, but hey, as good liberals we must respect their way of doing things, and, the bottom line is, they don't do it as badly as S.H. did, and we aren't bothered enough about it to declare war on them - yet. Wait until we need more oil.)

The filth who murdered Margaret Hassan are suppressed in decent societies - they thrive only when a country is weak, divided and traumatised, and that is the effect of this illegal war. Bush and Blair must share the ultimate responsibility. I still find I can't work up any real anger about the marine killing the insurgent - and that too is another shocking effect of this war, compassion fatigue.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:59 PM

Super Ted, Hitler was gassing Jews and Gypsies. Should we then have shot all unarmed German prisoners that were wounded from 50 yards away?

Your attitude is exactly what the problem is.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:53 PM

Brucie: No you didn't forget 'candy ass'. You just posted

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:01 AM

Quick rejoinder. Took you long enough to think of it. Jaysus.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:37 AM

Uncle Sam is a dork. Both of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:40 AM

I don't get it, would someone explain all this to me. We use our might to overthrow a nation who poses no threat to us, using fear tactics & the flimiest of excuses & then cry poor intellegience (no shit). 45 minutes & Iraq could nuke the US. Turns out Iraq couldn't get out of it's own way. War crimes? Surgical & persission strikes, not from what I saw, killing & shooting unarmed military & civilians. Torture, rape & murder & all this long before any beheading started. Well if we're gonna say fuck the rules what's to stop all the other players from not doing the same thing. No matter what a person, be it soldier or civilian, has to witness there is no excuse for murder. That goes more so for the trained professional soldier. Is it a crime that skilled Iraqi contractors are bared from rebuilding their own country, they were well capable of contracting before we got there & we wouldn't be overcharged by the sweet smelling deals of the HellBurdens that are sucking us dry. The occupation of Iraq & the fight that the Iraqi's are waging is getting worst, they're ranks are swelling daily while ours are getting picked off like ducks at a county fair. These fighters that we're told are mostly from elsewhere & that it's just a handfull misguided rabel. To my way of seeing this, this is a twin sister to Viet Nam, no end in sight, no glory, no victory & a lot of war crimes & crimes against humanity. Our name has become Mudd. One more thought about many of those that came home from Nam. Alot came home as basket cases & alot as junkies who were trained killers. I can only say from those I loved & knew from what they had witnessed overseas many couldn't live a peaceful life afterwards, will we see a repeat of the past again. War Crimes, can I borrow those rose colored glasses that people seem to be wearing these days. By the way watch the new CIA (Civilians In Action) it seems as if they're gonna take War Crimes to a whole new level.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:54 AM

Ditto, Barry... Well written and sums it up very nicely!!!

Now, what about one of our Canadian Catters trying to make a citizen;s arrest of Bush while he's in Canada? Or has he escaped back to the dafety of the US. You know that Belgium was thinking about bringin' charges against Bush but word on the street is that they rethought it after Bush sent their president a poatcard of a mushroom cloud...

But really, one's debts must all be paid and Bush is running up one heck of a big inhumanity debt...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM

...and now they've raided a mosque in Baghdad and killed and wounded the people while they were praying.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM

Brucie:
Took you long enough to think of it.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

Uncle Sam = dork.
Lots of bluster
Not much talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM

All of you anti-war protesters are members of the Timothy McVeigh Club of government haters.

Uncle Sam


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

Yeah, brilliant logic US. McVeigh was so anti-war and non-violent, right?

Dumbass!


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:22 PM

Is it now the excepted norm that war is a good thing?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:45 PM

"In a book based on interviews before his execution, American Terrorist, McVeigh stated he decapitated an Iraqi soldier with cannon fire on his first day in the war, and celebrated. But he said he later was shocked to be ordered to execute surrendering prisoners, and to see carnage on the road leaving Kuwait City after U.S. troops routed the Iraqi army."

Think about this, Guest US.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:46 PM

It is all well and good for you to cheer these kids from a safe seat somewhere. They pay a heavy price for your bravado. War changes people. Sometimes permanently. Don't be so quick to cheer.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:36 AM

Nader: Impeach Obama for war crimes

Former presidential candidate Ralph Nader says President Obama should be impeached for committing "war crimes" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The consumer advocate and former presidential candidate said in an interview that aired Friday that Obama has committed "war crimes" on the same level as President Bush.

"Why don't we say what's on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached," Nader said in an interview with the anti-war Democracy Now! organization.

Nader's comments came before the U.S. on Saturday launched military strikes into Libya, but they are among the toughest criticisms Obama has endured from the left.

The consumer advocate participated in an anti-war demonstration outside the White House this weekend, during which more than 100 protesters were arrested.

The U.S. sought the passage of a U.N. Security Council resolution and commitments from European and Arab nations before taking action in Libya to thwart the country's leader, Col. Moammar Gadhafi, from killing civilians amidst a rebellion against his regime.

Nader's comments, however, were mainly directed at Obama's prosecution of the Afghanistan war. Some liberal activists have objected to Obama's decision to escalate the war and are unhappy with government's treatment of Bradley Manning, the Army private accused of leaking classified documents to the organization WikiLeaks.

"Bush officials were considered war criminals by many people. Now, Barack Obama is committing the same crimes," Nader said. "In fact, worse ones in Afghanistan. Innocents are being slaughtered, we are creating more enemies, he is violating international law."

Obama appears to be facing growing resistance from the left over his administration's foreign policy.

Anti-war filmmaker Michael Moore sharply criticized the president's authorization of military strikes in Libya and a cadre of liberal House Democrats are questioning the constitutionality of the Libya operation.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:45 AM

Just so soon as Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney & the rest of the BuShite criminals are tried & convicted, Sawz, we can move on to Pres. Obama.
OPne thing at a time.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:24 AM

That is the best excuse err, reason to allow Obama to commit war crimes that I have heard yet.

Can you tell me the logic in this Mr. Logician?

If there is any logic in this equivocation, it exonerates "the BuShite criminals" of any wrongdoing.

If Obama does it, it is OK because Bush did it and was never prosecuted.

Obama does it too so it must have been OK when Bush did it because he was never prosecuted.

By that reasoning Bush should be prosecuted because it is wrong and Obama should be prosecuted too.

Your logic is over ridden by Tribal Politics. You must accept wrongdoing by members of your tribe while complaining about the same wrongdoings of the other tribe.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:44 AM

Rubbush. Learn to read and understand the English Language, Sawz.

Not only did I say none of those things, but there is no reason for you to assume that I "meant" them- unless you're simply making things up & pulling stuff out of your arse as per usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:11 PM

I never said you said any of those things. You are accusing me of something I did not do.

I merely stated that your line of reasoning in the statement "soon as Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney & the rest of the BuShite criminals are tried & convicted, Sawz, we can move on to Pres. Obama.
OPne thing at a time." Would lead to the other conclusions. The same logic as in A+B=C means C-A=B or C-B=A or C=A+B

Perhaps you need to study the English language.

You need to study logic too because your only logic consist of false accusations to defend your lack of logic.

You imply that it is OK for Obama to do the same things that Bush did because Bush has not been prosecuted yet.

Please note that imply is a different word than said. They mean two different things.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:17 PM

"You imply that it is OK for Obama to do the same things that Bush did because Bush has not been prosecuted yet."

The real question here is why people who commit war crimes are not being prosecuted. So, I ask: why is it that people who commit war crimes are not prosecuted?


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM

If we got around to prosecuting all the presidents (and other national leaders) whose actions have led to war crimes being committed....there'd be a whole lot of politicians up on trial. War itself is a great crime, particularly when it's a war of choice...(as opposed to defending your own ground against a foreign invasion and occupation). Anyone has a clear right to defend his own ground, territorial waters, and air space. No one has a right to unilaterally decide to invade someone else's, just because "they might attack us one day" or "they might do this, that or the other thing we don't agree with" or "they might have or be planning to build this or that weapon which we already have so many of ourselves that we can hardly figure out how to pay for all of them".

For practicing gross hypocrisy like that, I think it would be very appropriate to put a number of our politicians (past and present) on trial. It's not a partisan matter. It's a matter of basic moral principle that goes beyond partisan loyalties.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:38 PM

"why is it that people who commit war crimes are not prosecuted?"

It's a matter of sheer power, that's all. "Might makes right." The only time high level war criminals (like heads of state) are prosecuted for war crimes is when they become prisoners of a conquering power, following a military conflict....or....

...sometimes a few of the small fry (ordinary soldiers) will go on trial as an exhibition to mollify public outrage. They are then sacrificed, but their top commanders and their political leaders go free.

And so it has always been. Might makes right is the functioning rule of international politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:12 PM

It all started when they hit us back.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:24 PM

No offense: all that's well and good, but the answers don't answer my question.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:36 PM

Okay. How would you answer it? I think another possible answer is: "because they have friends in high places"


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

OK, LH, that I understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:29 PM

Authoritarianism, right or wrong is the cry of the war criminals.
Hegemony is nothing new, the US has been doing it for years.
How about McKinley in the Phillipines for example?

Hypocrisy in foreign policy has become de rigueur.

Hillary is a hawk and Obama is in bed with the MIC.

What do you expect?

The World Court has no power to extradite the US let alone Bush and Obama.

The OWS is supporting world peace and condemnation of the Obama Doctrine.


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