Guitar as accompaniment

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM

The very first thing Dave Van Ronk did when I went to my first lesson with him was to ask me to play some stuff for him. It was very intimidating, because I was extremely limited on guitar, and hadn't even been exposed to much live picking. But, it was just the right thing. He learned a lot about me, watching me play and listening to me. I think it helped him teach me in a more personalized way, starting with where I was.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Folkie101
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:42 PM

Hi Jerry,

What were some of the most useful guitar teachings/tips you learned from Dave?

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 11:46 PM

Hey, Folkie:

What a question... my answer may not be what you'd expect, and it says a lot about Dave and his teaching. My lessons (I only took lessons for about three months) consisted of three, roughly equal parts. I think that all three were equally important. The most obvious one was Dave teaching me some basic finger-picking patterns. I didn't come to him to learn to be a blues guitarist because I didn't feel that's who I was (or am.) What he showed me was how to do basic three finger picking patterns, and as the lessons progressed, how to carry bass runs with my thumb and pick out melodies with my two other fingers. He showed me some rudiments of blues guitar, where the thumb doesn't play alternate bass notes, and also sent me home to transcribe songs from one key into another. After two or three months, I had pretty much digested that, and he didn't feel that he had that much more to show me, for the kind of guitar I wanted to play. Ironically, the blues techniques of sliding notes and breaking out of the alternating bass turned out to be of great value many years later when I tried to play electric guitar on black gospel. "Travis" picking styles didn't fit the rhythms, and the syncopated rhythms and broke down picking patterns turned out to be just what I needed. Now, when I play guitar in black churches, the other guitarists play a much more electric blues and jazz style and are fascinated that I carry the rhythm, bass runs and melody all at once, with a lot of drive to the music. The seeds for my style were planted 40 years ago, in those three months with Dave.

But, that's only a part of the story. Every lesson included Dave playing records for me.. introducing me to everything from the Carter Family to Blind Lemon Jefferson. He was the one who introduced me to the Anthology Of American Folk music, which became my bible and primary source of songs for many years .. right up to the present.
Dave understood that music is much more than technique and he wanted to fill me with traditional music that he loved, the blues only being a small part of it.

The other third of the lesson would be me bringing in arrangements that I was fumblingly working out on my own. Dave understood that the only way anyone really learns to play an instrument is to leave
tablature and "lessons" behind and create your own music. Dave was very encouraging of my early attempts, occasionally showing me how I could find a different fingering for a chord or a slight modification of pattern. But mostly, he was just there as a resource when I had a question.

In later years, when I taught guitar and banjo, I subconsciously taught in much the same way. I tried to wean my students from playing tablature by rote. challenging them to learn songs from me that I would play in front of them, slowing everything down as much as they wanted, taping the song for them and then sending them home to listen to the tape and work it out on their own. Sad to say, every student I had resisted trying to learn anything on their own, and quit the lessons as soon as they didn't have a weekly tablature to work on. That really discouraged my efforts to teach. I had given them all the basic patterns, and everything they needed to proceed on their own, but they didn't want to step beyond the spoon-fed phase.

If I had been more serious about being a blues guitarist more in the style of Dave, I'm sure he would have led me further into chord progression and positions on the neck. As it was, he did give me a good understanding of basic chord structure that proved helpful. Dave didn't teach from written sheet music. Everything he taught me was from tablature, and example. He was the perfect instructor for me because he encouraged me to have my own style, right from the beginning. I never wanted to sound like anyone but myself, and Dave not only respected that, he did everything he could to give me what I needed to find my own voice. And then he set me free.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From:
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:08 AM

Lots of food for thought here!

Two responses:
Eve wrote--
"A lot of times I find I'm hearing something that I don't know how to play, which is what forces me to improve!" Amen to that! The frustrating thing is that there is so much I hear that I don't know how to play!

And Jerry, concerning lessons with Dave Van Ronk--
What you describe is what I would call a true teacher--someone who brings influential material to the student, and challenges the student to find ways to learn from it, while being a resource to assist the student's individual process of apprehending and integrating the material. What that teaching method does is assure that every student learns to trust and follow his or her own muse. It's a method that inspires confidence, creativity, and competence, regardless of the subject matter.

Ironically, all of the teachers I've known who use this method (and they are few, but excellent), however, would deny that they have a "method". They say that they "teach as they learned" and "trust the process." Several of them also refer to "magic" when describing what they do, and, interestingly, so do their students. They say things like "I don't know what happens, it's like magic!"

I'm not sure that this teaching method can be easily distilled into the 1-hour festival workshop format for a group of students with widely mixed skill levels, styles and goals. It would be a fun challenge to design a 1-hour workshop that could send everyone away with something new and usable.

Just my $0.02, fwiw...

V

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:08 AM

Another basic tenet of Dave's. Play the song at the rhythm you need to to do the hardest part of 6the song cleanly. That is... don't play the song at one speed, and then fumble all over a guitar break. Play it at the rhythm you need in order to get the guitar break cleanly.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Eve Goldberg
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:27 PM

Mooh asked

"Do you have a lot of students who are learning guitar in order to accompany their voice?"

And the answer, for me, is definitely, yes. Maybe that's because I pick up a lot of my students through The Woods Music and Dance Camp, where I've taught beginning guitar off and on for years and where the emphasis is definitely on singing-- or the song circle, which is an offshoot of The Woods, and similarly is made up of people interested in singing folk songs. Maybe it's because most people think of me as a singer more than a guitarist. Who knows.

But I've also learned not to take on students who are looking for something I can't offer. I don't play music from a staff, I can't teach someone the ins and outs of rock or heavy metal music. So I don't teach students who are looking for that. I teach people who want to play guitar well enough to accompany themselves singing. And I'm pretty up front that we're going to be working mostly with folk songs. Which is not to say we won't go a little off the path into something by the Eagles, Neil Young, or other stuff like that if that's what they're into.

Where I've sometimes had to push a student is sometimes with teenagers who are shy. So I just do all the singing and let them follow along. I figure when they're ready to sing, they'll sing!


Eve

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Mooh
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:08 PM

Thanks Eve, much appreciated. I teach full-time private lessons in a small town so I have to handle everything from celtic tenor banjo to heavy-metal electric guitar. All in all I prefer acoustic guitar players but the other stuff keeps life interesting. The moment a student says they'll play something they wrote, or sing to their own accompaniment, I know their music involvement and commitment is for keeps. Maybe someday I'll be able to pass the pop interests off to another instructor, but for now I do what I gotta so I can do what I wanna...besides, sometimes I like to crank up the volume too.

I envy you your "Woods" connection. Great gig!

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Folkie101
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:52 PM

Jerry: Thanks for your responses re: Dave Van Ronk - please let us know if other tips come to mind from those lessons.

Some time ago, I started a thread titled " Folk Guitar Accompaniment". As a developing guitarist, I was so inspired by the responses, I joined Mudcat.

Next time this year, I'll be regularly singing/playing guitar for audiences. As my guitar style evolves, I get such satisfaction knowing I didn't give up while teaching myself guitar months ago. I truly believe if the music is in you, it will come forth - if allowed.

I was surprised to find that barre chords were not needed to express myself and present the traditional and popular 60's folk music (think PP&M) I love so much. Since I sing lots of songs acappella, adding the guitar gives me extra colors to share.

The more I practice, I discover many little things - like groovy fingerpicking and strumming patterns, lifting a finger off certain chords while strumming or fingerpicking, discovering new open chords (all w/in the first three frets.) And, to think I was once intimidated in learning to play guitar (that is why I insisted on teaching myself.)

If there's anyone reading my post who really feels a desire to learn guitar, I want to encourage you to get started - you can do it. How To Play Guitar by Roger Evans was a big help to me. I found it in a used bookstore. It's the best $3.00 I've spent in some time :)

I hope this thread continues to grow - I'm learning lots :)

cheers,
Folkie

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jeep man
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:56 PM

Hey, Jerry. I have nothing to add to the thread, but it is certainly good to see you surface again. If you have something to say, I am one who wants to hear it. Jim

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:59 AM

Thanks, Jeep:

One thing that has evolved in my guitar playing over the years is something I rarely if ever here anyone talk about. The Guitar as a rhythm instrument. Maybe I'll start a thread on that...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Eve Goldberg
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

Mooh,

I understand your dilemma. Since I don't rely on the teaching for my full-time income, I'm able to make the choices I've made. I teach guitar one afternoon a week. I have five slots one after the other, although right now I've got one opening if anyone's looking for lessons in Toronto!

The teaching adds a solid bit of income to my performing income, which of course is up and down. At some point I may decide to teach a little bit more, but for now this is what suits me.

And beginning guitar students are by far the MOST rewarding!

Eve

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:16 PM

"Guitar as accompaniment"..

i live and breathe guitar and other metal strings instruments..
but I'm not a singer..

so if anything, i'd give up all my instuments in an instant
to be granted a strong clear tuneful singing coice..
and a memory for lyrics..

My role in music is as an accomanying 'sidekick'
for mates who can sing..

But, even as a guitarist, i gotta be honest,
and admit i get bored listening to so many singers
taking the easy option and supporting their vocals
with 'strum 'n' pick by numbers' guitar playing..
i guess overfamiliarity can eventually breed indiference..

I truly admire singers who can hold an audiences attention
with just the power & emotion of their voice alone..

and if they do prefere to support their solo vocal performance
with an instrument..
then i'm far more likely to be won over
and enjoy the songs..
on the rare occasion when i chance upon singers
who can accomany their songs with a good old fashioned squeezebox..

i love the sound of an instrument like the concertina,
that a discerning singer can skillfully use to mirror
the personal dynamics and timing of their own breathing..
To me thats a far more captivating interaction
between voice and instrument,
than 'yet another' guitar..

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM

Punkfolk: While we're talking about guitar as accompaniment, it's worth mentioning that other instruments may fit particular songs better. Guitar has a fulness to it that a mandolin or banjo doesn't have, but there are some songs where a banjo gives a drive and energy and enough space between notes to make it better for that particular song.

Now, this being the Land Of Crinkled Noses, I should add that I found it impossible to accompany black gospel on an acoustic guitar, and use an electric for the sustain and the ability to project loud enough to be heard. The first time I tried leading black gospel playing guitar, I just took the strap off over my shoulder and put the guitar down after a couple of bars of such full-throated singing. I couldn't hear my guitar at all.

Electric guitars are especially good for blues where you need sustained notes to harmonize with the vocal, and bends of the strings to match bent notes of the singer. Acoustic guitar sounds best to my ears on the old country blues, because they don't need the same sustain (and they are usually sung without a lot of other instruments or voices to drown out the guitar.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Folkie101
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:45 PM

Jerry,

Did Dave ever see you perform after you developed your style as a performer? If so, what were his comments?

Folkie

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:25 AM

Folkie:

Yes.. Dave heard me perform many times. He even came up and sang harmony with me on Wayfaring Stranger once, when I was singing at Gerde's Folk City in New York. Dave ran a Monday night Hoot at the Gaslight Cafe, and that's where I really learned to perform. I did three or four songs there just about every Monday night for a couple of years, and most of the time, Dave was there. After I became more comfortable as a performer, Dave would wander upstairs and have a few beers at the Kettle Of Fish, and informally leave me in charge of keeping the Hoot going. It was good for both of us.

One thing about Dave is that he appreciated a lot of styles of music, and we had in common a love for tradtional southern mountain music and jazz, as well as country blues. Dave seemed to like my style of playing, which is substantially different than his in that I use more brushes and syncopated rhythms. I stopped taking lessons after a couple of months because Dave felt he had given me what I needed. It wasn't that I didn't have a lot left to learn, but my style was going in a different direction than Dave's (which I still love) and Dave thought I had everything I needed to go there.

In later years, I had the pleasure of not only hearing Dave, but in booking him at a series that I ran. He also had my first three albums, and was very complimentary about them.

He was a generous man, as everyone knows who crossed his path.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Dreaded Thumbpick
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:32 PM

I've just come along to this thread. There's an awful lot of diverse thought here.

Talk about "flashy" guitar work always reminds me of why I like so little bluegrass. When the musicians really feel the music, it can be so good but I find so many of the players are phenomenally technically competent and have no sense of the soul of the music. The Country Gentlemen or The Greenbrier Boys could really move me. The speed technicians leave me cold.

As far as guitar workshops go, when I find myself in a workshop, I always try to offer options to the guitarists in the audience. I love the sound of banjo but don't play it. So I figured out a way to approximate it in open tuning. Jeff Warner once told me about a tuning which he called "mountain modal". I now use it for almost everything in Myxolydian or Dorian that I accompany.

Another technique that I like is the use of the bass melody note to push a song along. That's the striking of the melody note momentarily after (or before) you've sung that note. Works very nicely in chord transition runs.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:43 PM

Perhaps the high speed of bluegrass just frustrates you, Dreaded thumpick. first of all that high speed can't possibly be obtained by using a thumbpick, so perhaps that is your problem.

I play bluegrass guitar pretty quick and know others even quicker. There is more soul and feel for the music in their little finger than many thumbplunkers have in their whole body.

get out that heavy flatpick, and ditch that thumbpick if you ever want to pick something as soulful as bluegrass with speed and competancy.

doc Watson would be proud of ya. so would Tony Rice.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Dreaded Thumbpick
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:51 PM

Martin,

Don't take it personally. I didn't say that all fast pickers had no feeling. I just get the sense sometimes that some fast pickers just want to get in as many notes as they can. To me, it sounds like they lose the meaning of the tune. That's what I hear as a listener. It has nothing to do with my ability to use a flat pick.

Subject: RE: Guitar as accompaniment
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:17 PM

Eve is being modest about her talents -- check her out at the Free Times Cafe in Toronto second week in January!!

i remember Rick Fielding once saying to me that guitar students were very attracted to the sounds of strummed chords, but that that kind of beauty was skin deep -- if you were performing the real thing was a solid bass rhythm. The reason was that the audience would somehow know you were in control even if they couldn't articulate why.

yours