BS: unravelled?

Subject: BS: unravelled?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:23 PM

I'm a great one for reading, and recently I have seen three books and one post with "unraveled" in them. There is no such word as unraveled. To ravel is to come undone, especially for something knitted. If something unraveled, it would knit itself back up, probably magically.

Tunnelers speak of "ravelling ground." They don't like it; it is a which layer which disintegrates as they work on it.

Remember Hamlet's words: "Care, that unknits the unravelled sleave of sleep." (sleave = skein)

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:27 PM

Sorry, but you're wrong. Unravel is listed in the OED and they give citations back to 1603.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

Unravel, v.

1. trans. To take out of a ravelled, tangled, or intertwined condition; to disentangle; also, to pull down, to undo (a woven fabric).
Freq. in fig. context: see quots. under (a).

(a) 1603 DEKKER Wonderfull Yeare Wks. (Grosart) I. 131 She..vnraueld the bottome of her frailetie at length. 1639 FULLER Holy War IV. i. 166 Frederick..unravelled the fair web of John Brens victory, even to the very hemme thereof. 1709 SWIFT Tritical Ess. Wks. 1755 II. I. 144 We shall be forced to..unravel in the night what we spun in the day. 1792 BURKE Corr. (1844) IV. 3 The web has been too long weaving to be unravelled in an instant. 1856 KINGSLEY in N. Brit. Rev. XXVI. 78 To unravel patiently the tangled web of good and evil. 1878 BROWNING La Saisiaz 81, I, link by link, unravelled any tangle of the chain.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:49 PM

Leenia - you say the word doesn't exist and then you quote it in a Shakespeare play?

curiouser & curiouser.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 06:18 PM

That "quote" is a clever reversal of what Shakespeare wrote. The real quote is "Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleave of care."

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

unraveling means playing "Bolero" backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 06:43 PM

Similarly, "flammable" and "inflammable" both mean the same thing -- able to go up in flames.

That's English for you!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

Why are "priceless" and "worthless" opposites?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: annamill
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:28 PM

Ha! Good one Bill!

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:31 PM

Why is a fat chance a slim chance?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

And it gives me a laugh to see/hear someone say, "There is no such word as '__(whatever)____.'" Presumably the writer means that "There should be no such word as '___(whatever___'" because it's nonsensical or rendundant or whatever reason is given.

Now I suppose if I made up a word I could meaningfully say, "There's no such word as 'dinkfrong'," because indeed 'dinkfrong' is not a set of sounds which is used between people to mean something, but as soon as someone assigns a meaning to it and uses it to even attempt to communicate that meaning, and even if no-one else in the world understands what that speaker meant, it's a word; certainly not a useful word under those circumstances, but a word.   If I decide that "dinkfrong", which I just made up a minute ago, means "A person who says there is no such word as '____(whatever)___'," then that's a word. If someone at Mudcat picks it up and uses it with that meaning, whether back to me or to someone else, then the word is in circulation, and has its place (however small) in our language.

I remember being told when in grade school sixty-five years ago that "There's no such word as 'ain't', because 'ain't' ain't in the dictionary!" Of course there was and is such a word as "ain't" because we all know it is (and was then) in current useage, and the speaker was even using it, and besides that, it was in the (or at least "a") dictionary. I know, because I looked it up, when I was about eight years old! I believe that some abridged dictionaries at that time left it out, presumably on the ground of inelegance, but it certainly was in the one I had access to.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:58 PM

So you're saying that Leeneia is a dinkfrong, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:58 PM

I have had more than a few students come and tell me that their grandmother (or mom or dad or, or, or) told them that ain't isn't a word. I have usually replied that technically that's true. It's two words. But, that's contractions for ya.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:07 PM

Well, I've met a number of dinkfrongs. But I always thought it meant something else.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM

"Dinkfrong" is a technical term used when discussing bipolar p-n junctions in germanium trioxide-based semiconductors. Dinkfrongs come in two variety, invert and obvert, depending upon the direction of twist, or ravellment. They also share the quality of "up" and "down" with quarks; this quality apparently relates to the orientation of the dinkfrong's constituant quarks and is directly opposite to the quark orientation (i.e., if the "up" quarks predominate, the dinkfrong will be oriented "down"). If a series of "up" dinkfrongs is placed in parallel, it will repel, not attract, a similar series of "down" dinkfrongs placed in parallel -- some think that this has implications that any Grand Unified Theory must deal with before it can be accepted.

It has also been discovered that placing a series of "up" oriented dinkfrongs parallel to, but not touching, a series of "down" oriented dinkfrongs a rather nasty explosion will result. There seems to be a critical limit beyond which dinkfrongs placed in the same plane cannot go. They can, however, be stacked vertically to any height you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM

Sorry, but I don't think that words illiterate people were using in the 1600's count as words for today.

I would hate to be a lawyer trying to write a contract if it was all right for a word and its opposite to mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:09 AM

Of course many words and their opposites mean the same thing. What do you think keeps lawyers in business, lee?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:09 AM

Well, now, valuable and invaluable both mean of great monetary value, as do pricey and priceless.

But these apparent contradictions ar eonly apparent. If you understand the etymology involved they are easy enough to trace.

If something is tangled up in a random sort of way it is said to be raveled, and might have to be teased apart (unraveled) to then be properly and neatly knitted again.

If something is tangled in an orderly way, like a weave, the bits are tangled but in order -over and under and over. They are satill all wrapped up in each other, or tangled, and they can therefore be said also to be raveled, but more neatly. They can likewise be teased into an unraveled condition, with the strands separated out.

See what I mean?


A

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:13 AM

One my girlfriend often uses out of habit... unthaw.

"Leave the bacon to unthaw. We'll eat it later."

So I put it back in the freezer.

A tip: Don't take what your lover says too literally all the time. They don't always like it.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:43 AM

As a keen student of the English language, I have come acropper several times:

a) When they say some organisation was "founded" in year such-and-such, does that mean that it was "losted" before?

b) Why are the legal and medical professions so interested in "youth in Asia"?

c) Why is the throwing of flowers a bad thing - as "casting nasturtiums"?

I fear I may never get answers to the above before I die of "old timers' disease". Or is the whole thing a fig of my imagination?

Hilda Ogden - where are you, teacher?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:17 AM

That's what I thought, Rapaire. You've summed it up, i.e., got it down, quite neatly. Sorry, Uncle_DaveO.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:00 AM

And should we really be downloading updates?

I hardly ever upload any downdates.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Splott Man
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:04 AM

How did you know dinkfrong was a noun?

In Welsh it's an adverb (mutated)

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:57 AM

If a word is used by people, then it becomes a word..it exists. Lots of people use the word unravel, as you've pointed out, having seen it in three books. Therefore, it is a word. Language is subject to constant evolution. Look at the number of words now in the language from computer-speak and mobile phone texting. If one person uses a word and another understands what they mean, then it is a word and does exist....

And priceless and worthless aren't, strictly speaking, opposites.

And...LOL Bill D!!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:10 AM

Reminds me of the chap who came to London to improve his English . He has a lot of trouble with all those words that were spelt the same but pronounced differently (Plough , through ,etc ) He finally gave up and went home when he saw a poster outside a Theatre that said in BIG letters ' CATS - Pronounced success!!'

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:52 AM

Wanderin along that rocky path
black knitted shawl all wound about
when fate unravelled fast before me
Never found my roundabout

Once a teenybopper
Now come a cropper,
I was losted, not ever founded
All my nasturtiums yet cast before me
nor my figments had flowered groundward.

All I wanted was youth in Asia
before I died of old timers' disease
but those hopes of
youth unravelled
when my lungs be
gan to wheeze

and so I beg you
Ogden Pash Nash
You've summed it up,
er, got it down,

and now my
updates are all downloaded
at last I know that
dinkfrong's a noun

yet well be adverbs yet mutated
and syllogisms nor yet translate
yet my old wool shawl
is still unravelled
I follow its thread
To that rusty old gate.

Quietly
My old feet wander
And all my feelings
are at heel
at night I sit
and spin my old shawl
tomorrow to un
revel anew.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:37 AM

Brilliant!!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:50 AM

Dinkfrog (or dink-frog) is a term we use in Orlando to describe the tourists who hop from one theme park to the next repeatedly. We've got 7 major and 5 or so minor theme parks and with multi-day passes, tourists can visit several parks in the same day. It started when Disney began offering its "Park-Hopper Pass."

It's somewhat of a derogatory term, however - usually reserved for the "dinks" who leap "frog" from park to park so often that they're spending more time traveling on the roads than enjoying the rides & shows they paid to see.

Noun: Dinkfrog
Verb: Dingfroggin'
Some times we just use "DF" since that also stands for Dumbf*ck, and is appropriate as well in some cases.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:58 AM

ah, freida...I have never seen e.e.cummings and Ogden Nash so well merged before!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:26 AM

Well done, freda!

BillD!! LMAO!!

Frel is very much a part of our family language now, having learned it from FarScape...a rather "clean" way to say fuck, well until everyone else catches on.:-)

eonly apparent - takes a LONG time before it becomes clear!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:50 AM

So, is a bisexual someone who performs the sex act on a tandem?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Michael
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:59 PM

No a bisexual is a customer of a sellsexual
Mike

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Chris Green
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM

Surely a bisexual is someone who's said bye to sex?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Chris Green
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:12 PM

Whereas a polysexual is someone who shags parrots...

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:09 PM

and a metrosexual is someone who has Sex in the City.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM

Leeneia,

Once again you're wrong, in so many ways.

1) The literacy of a speaker does not affect whether the words they use are words.

2) The person using the word in this case was obviously not illiterate, as his use of it has survived four hundred years. Indeed, one of the early usages I cited was from Swift. Do you think you are more literate than he was?

3) Even if you don't mean "it's not a word at all" but "it's not a word recognized as part of standard English," you're quite wrong. It's in every dictionary of standard English.

You just decided to be clever, and to claim that because you knew one archaic meaning of "ravelled" which was similar to one common meaning of "unravelled," "unravelled" was redundant and should have its word-status revoked. But it doesn't work that way.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM

I thought a bisexual had two wheels and pedals.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:17 PM

a bisexual is someone who's had enough and is saying goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM

Poppagator,

Actually to firefighters and hazmat folks flammable and inflammable mean two differnt things.

Flammable means = It will catch fire so look out!

Inflammable means = Take cover, an idiot will soon come along with a lit cigarette and say "Why are you worried, it won't catch fire!"

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:22 AM

WIth the exception of the original post, this thread is brilliant. Regarding the original post, I would like to state for the record that I don't particularly give a shit.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:38 AM

Spaw - we're glad you shared.


Here's a question, if I'm out of dinkfrog food, what do I feed my pet dinkfrogs?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:06 PM

Well obviously....scobblewick. You DO have some scobblewick in the house don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:24 PM

He may, but it's a far less nutrtious diet than Florbschievernt.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Alba
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM

Also on behalf on the millions of Scobbles that are killed for their wicks I protest.
There has to be a better alternative surely.
Florbschievernt, as we all know, can cause gas in Dinkfrogs and Riblelizards but is, in saying that, a more humane food.
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: annamill
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:34 PM

Lewis Carroll watch out!!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM

I've heard good reviews of a new alternative called Keentushala...supposedly it has helped with the captive breeding of Dinkfrogs and also relieves the pressures on Scottle's to give up their winks, it being quite tasty in its own right, plus nutritious, for the Dinkfrogs, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 12:44 AM

Now you folks are talking about dinkfrogs, which are of course a kind of mentally underdeveloped amphibian, but initially we were talking about dinkfroNGs, which are otherwise intelligent people who claim that words aren't really words. Show me someone who doesn't believe dinkfrong is a word, and I'll show you a dinkfrong in the flesh!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: Mudlark
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:59 AM

Freda, you are on a roll....or a bagel....brilliant poem!

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 07:53 AM

thanks mudlark - you may regret that comment , it only encourages me...

a dirhinous camel in Muharbia manic
with a woman was wandering in predictable panic
she was writing athesis on chamelon's cholic
but the ship of the desert was a sly alcoholic
He sucked Hashimayu to riddle his brains
and passed out beneath her berating the rains.
She needed some transport and went up Azrafa
she got it with minties and a sticky red jaffa
she rode past a minister with her bouncing giraffe
her nostrils were sinister and her comments a gaffe
"You meander steatopygously whither and thither
on a creature that elongates and undulates hither,
this life in the desert is a runcible rort
but the locals could tsujigirl such a cerebral sort"
He gazed at chameleons as she gave them quick-eze
in a slithered surrender he fell to his knees
with a barrage of groans about picking a box
he became Zoanthropic and dived for her socks
and rolling his eyeballs he coiled round her waisr
"You'll never thelypthorise me" she snapped with distate,
"You're a politician, not a lizard, go and write a new book"
she shuddered and ran as his tongue went kershlook
she anavanjeared him before he could leap
her aim was as sharp as his fervour was deep
the sounds of the desert blow in timeless ballet
O'er the skeletal charade of his shameless delay
She smiled as she gathered the scattered quick-eze
and road the giraffe with perambular ease
into the sunset and its apricot tones
never thinking to look back at poor Barry Jones...

Subject: RE: BS: unravelled?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 07:57 AM

oops, sorry guys, this should have gone on the silly rhymes thread. now i really HAVE come all unravelled!