BS: Foxhunting Banned.

Subject: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:44 AM

Hunting with dogs is now banned, law comes into effect in 3 months.
I'm going to train my hamster to hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: kendall
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:46 AM

Just make sure you pen them up when we come to visit.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:21 AM

Now if only we could raise foxes to be vegetarians the world would be a much better place

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:31 AM

Well if they hadn't been caught smoking so often in the hen houses....

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:41 AM

Oh, dash it all! I just got my pinks back from dry cleaners, too! Whatever will I do? I say! I do so like to see Lady Tidewater turned out with her boots, spurs, and whip. Most...attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: mooman
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 10:59 AM

Good.

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Cllr
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:37 AM

Bad

cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: mooman
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM

You see the good Councillor and I can express our opposing views succinctly and without rancour. And possibly even over a pint...

A model for Mudcat?

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:48 AM

Mike, when I come back over, I had thought you and I could have taken a hunt or two with 30 or 40 of your finer dogs. Oh Darn!! I will just have to sell my conservative fox hunting togs....sailing anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

I think it is a good thing. Perhaps someone can invent a robot Fox that the hounds can pursue through the woods much the same as the rabbit pursued by Greyhounds at a racetrack. Then the hunt can go on!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

I understand the Charles is O.K. with the ban because he was afraid that those in 'lower stations' would want to join in the hunt. Can't have working class people aspiring to be upper class sports, can we?

f

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Chris Green
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM

As I think I mentioned on a previous thread, all of the 'working-class' blood sports such as cockfighting, badger-baiting etc have already been banned. Why aren't the pro-hunters campaigning to have them brought back, eh? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Sweetfia
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

Bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:05 PM

The pursuit of the inedible by the unspeakable is ending.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

Since hunting using hounds to kill has been banned in Scotland (two years now) more foxes have been killed - almost twice as many in fact - and there are the same number of hunts. (BBC Radio this evening).

As I understand it in Scotland the dogs are allowed to "flush out" the fox which is then shot using people on driving around on quad bikes.

The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable is actually American football.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Chris Green
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 02:28 PM

Quad bikes? Good to see the old traditions kept up, eh?!

I think that says more about the bullshit values of the pro-hunters than anything else. They're not prepared to drag hunt bcause that's not the "traditional" way it's done, but they're quite happy to teararse around the countryside on quad bikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:23 PM

And now they're dragging in unemployment and loss of housing for hunt "servants" (sic), human rights, unlawful use of parliamentary and constitutional powers... call me an old cynic, but did anyone notice any of these people, or our illustrious house of lords, getting excited over similar "abuses" with reference to the miners, shipbuilders, steelworkers or deep sea fishermen? What's so bloody special about the Rodneys who do it to hounds?

KYBTTS

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

They don't smell, and they have a certain style.

'The unspeakable in pusuit of the uneatable'? Pretty rich coming from an obese paedophile.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:39 PM

Don't worry - it'll be reversed by May.
In the meantime - I'm going to pluck up courage and go hunting!!! Damn the speed and damn the fences - and the trampling hooves if I fall off. I'm Going Hunting! YaaaaaaaY!

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:04 PM

We have plenty of foxes in our town, and noone feels the urge to chase them to exhaustion and death.

Laura try to get yourself a life. It's an issue of animal cruelty.

The legal bids are clutching at straws. Its banned, accept it.

The news last night made my day.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,jacqui.c
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:08 PM

Now that it has been proved that fish have brains how soon will the government ban coarse fishing as being cruel? Not in a million years - too many of their supporters enjoy that one. Fox hunting has been banned because it is seen as an upper class interest. I have no strong feelings about it either way - I just think that this is the most hypocritical government that I have ever known.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:08 PM

I've got a life - don't worry.
I like foxes as much as the next person, very cute, very lovely - I just think the cons of a ban far outweigh the pros.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

Go to it Laura! Let freedom reign. I loved the exhilaration in your 'voice'. Yoiks, yoiks, tally ho!!!!   and down with the grey mingy moaners. Go and read a bloody book you sad bastards.

         Sportsmen arise the morning is clear
         The larks are singing all in the air
         Go and tell your sweet lover the hounds are out!
         Go and tell your sweet lover the hounds are out!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:35 PM

I disagree with fishing Jacqui, but would not bother with banning it, as it has a tradition of 'one for the pot'. And can be a source of non factory farmed food for a non veggie, which doesn't include myself.

Hunting on the other hand, is focussed on cruelty from the outset.

Laura, if you find something lovely and cute, why advocate terrorising it to death?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:39 PM

I don't - I just don't advocate banning hunting.
Like I said - i'm more anti-ban than pro-hunt - and if you can't tell the difference do your research.
The disadvantages of a ban far outweighh the advantages in my view.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

She's gone hunting mate, she can't hear you.

If hunters are simply into terrorising something to death, why don't they just do it to the cat?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:53 PM

If you're more anti ban Laura, why do you want to go on a hunt next year?

Ooh Aah2, I woudn't put it past them to trample a cat to death, except they'd keep it quite, as they'd be prosecuted for it otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:00 PM

The ban is a Blair trade off with the left. In the political world it has little to do with cruelty to foxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

As a person who, after a long and painful internal struggle, has decided he likes foxhunting more than majorities telling minorities what they can and can't do ( I was pro gay marriage and anti death penalty long before I had a majority with me) I plan to go and buy a cat to torture.
Smiler, you are a dork.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM

Yeh well I guess if thats really all Oscar Wilde amounts to in your eyes....an obese paedophile.....I feel sort of sad for you.

On a brighter note. Lets hope Charles and Camilla make a stand about hunting , carry on, and they get slung in jail. that really would brighten up 2005 for me.

Unfortunately unlike in Wilde's day they don't have hard labour. Now that would be some sort of new experience for people who know their station in life and that of everybody else's.

Charles's comments and the widespread reaction to them, of course merely underline what I was saying in another thread about this banning of hunting just being a piece of class revenge for all the humiliations of the Thatcher era.

My god if ever a class asked for it....

The total failure of the pro hunting lobby to take on board the point of view of the majority has been astounding - given that they must have the best legal brains in the country on their side. They have been very badly advised.

they keep repeating that hunting isn't cruel, which is an argument they have lost - the majority has decided otherwise. They should have moved on to the point that yes it may be cruel, but other cruel activities are permitted in our society and ours should be one of them - months ago. I really can't understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 10:02 PM

jacqui c - Fish is the main supply of food for my family. Its incredibly stupid of you to compare fishing with fox hunting. The rich do not eat the foxes and even if they do, they're not dependent upon them.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 10:25 PM

Fantastic! Now they can get back to their high-class incestuous deviances and darken our television screens no more...

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 10:42 PM

The hare and hound are most enjoyable sport.

Thankfully, they have not banned the carnage wrecked on a hare...by a well bred hound.

However, if the Brits allow this current ban to persist....it is not long until the peasant-class will also pay their dues.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:26 AM

Gargoyle - I think the peasant class have been paying their dues for a very long time.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:30 AM

Is this anything like Robin Hood and his Banned of Men?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 03:12 AM

Those who are thinking of taking up foxhunting, following the ban, may also want to take up cockfighting, and badger baiting, while they're at it. Ooh aah2, when you resort to name calling, it means you have lost the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:15 AM

Says you, dork.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: burntstump
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:16 AM

Half time score

REYNARD 1   FOX HUNTERS 0

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:24 AM

There is no valid reason to engage in this kind of cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:11 AM

Sometimes one does not need valid reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:14 AM

"Sometimes one does not need valid reasons"? Eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Cllr
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:56 AM

Mooman he he he good one! We must share a pint sometime
Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:12 AM

If the fox is bothering your chickens, just shoot it. Or trap it and release it far away. Why run the poor thing to death? Why trample over other people's crops and land?

Now if the hunters did it bareback -- no saddle, no stirrups, not even a blanket, with a hackamore for bridle and reins -- maybe I'd change my mind.

In the US, foxes are, unfortunately, one of the animals that can carry rabies. Were I to be approached by a fox (or any other mammal) which was NOT afraid of me, had a drugged appearance, etc., I would certainly do my best to kill it. Rabies is not a nice way for an animal or a person to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:14 AM

sorry to copy - Good !

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:00 PM

Smiler - I'm going hunting because it looks like I won't get the choice in the future! I wouldn't have bothered if it hadn't been banned - but now I've only got a few months I'm going to go for it.

xLx

p.s. Ooh-Ahh2 - did you get your cat yet? lol

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

Yes, Laura, you will hunt. The real question is why do y'all depend on the dogs to find? Surely you're smarter than the dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

Ah, so it's a rebellion thing. Highly commendable, until it involves killing things...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM

Not really - it's not that I'd always like the idea of it - but I'd always thought in the back of my mind - 'ooh maybe i'll have a go at that one day - it'd be a challenge' now I can't do it in my own time so here I go.
I don't know about being smarter than the dogs - last time I checked my IQ was only about 12 - or was it 13? Not too good at the counting thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM

I am blond after all

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:13 PM

Don't talk yourself down, being blonde just means you have the brains AND the beauty! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

Well there's something we agree on :-)

(you notice I misspelled blonde though? hehe)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM

Speeling is know indacashun of inteeligence :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM

Jusst aask jOhn!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:28 PM

Two wright!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

Laura -- and this is a serious offer -- if you REALLY want to hunt, come over to this side next Fall.

I'll set you up for a deer hunt with my brother and his daughters -- all of whom are blondes of varying shades and all of whom are, well, smart enough for all practical purposes. (Let's see, the oldest is working on her PhD in microbiology, her sister is a straight-A art major who'll graduate in 2006, the youngest has maintained a straight-A average since she was seven years old....)

If killing a deer (for meat, they eat what they shoot, which is the way it should be) bothers you, you needn't shoot (you probably don't know how anyway and you'd constitute a danger to yourself and others). You can still experience it and enjoy some time in the outdoors.

Oh, yeah. There's none of that "smear his face with blood" crap, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

alternatively you could get the keswick reporter and look the fell pack fixtures up and see fox hunting at its best.
blencathra FH has a website
no blood on face crap there.
no fancy dress there
they dress for work not fir show
Amazing musical tradition too

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

I find that rather cool - sort of wild and Pagan...

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:45 PM

Naah; keep foxhunting! It kills about four or five rich and aristocratic bastards each and every year! Just find a way to subtly raise the height of the fences and gates! Seriously; I've lived in the countryside almost all my life, and I know that hunting is supported only by the monied classes in my part of the country. It would still be wrong if, like cock fighting, hare coursing, bull-baiting, bear-baiting, badger digging and dog fighting, it was a working man's pursuit. However you look at it, it's about taking pleasure in cruelty and suffering. The only reason it still exists is because powerful and unelected people were able to prevent the same fate as the other alleged sports. I look forward to seeing if the forces of law and order take the same scale of action against the proposed civil disobedience as they took against the miners. Sigh...prejudice now suspended, rant mode off, back to nice guy...
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM

it is a f***ing working mans pursuit! Jeez - why don't you get it?!?!?!?!

Oh yeh and only the posh hunts do the blood on the face thing. So not very many at all. In fact - I couldn't name a single hunt that does it.
And, at the risk of sounding hypocritical, I wouldn't hunt deer. Not that I don't understand they can be a right pain in the backside - to farmer and gardeners and whatever - but they aren't as common as foxes. I don't know - it just wouldn't feel right. Not after watching Bambi. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:34 PM

I was reading the (strongly anti-hunting) Guardian recently and it pointed out that a majority of hunt supporters are not aristocrats at all. This was something I had worked out for myself, as it seems unlikely that the 400000+ people who rallied in London a few years ago were all toffs and their dependents. Farmers and workers in the countryside get out of their overalls and into their pink to go hunting and immediately look like an 18th century aristocrat. Result is a pavlovian snarl from the left!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:39 PM

Well, I hope you skin it and keep the pelt. Ever done that? Killin' the easy part. Skinnin' the carcass is a bit more difficult. Do that, then we have something to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:18 PM

Exactly! If you kill, you're obliged to gut it and skin it. If you don't eat it, at least use the skin and/or fur. Thats how I was raised. Killing for fun is just plain wrong, regardless of your social class.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

And what, pray tell, is the difference between hunting a fox and hunting a deer? Where we hunt, the deer depredation to the corn can mean the difference between our friends, the owners, making or losing money. True, we don't go out in scarlet jackets and ride jumpers. Normally we wear insulated coveralls, blaze orange vests and hats, heavy boots, and, if we ride at all, we ride "four wheelers" like these. (Usually we walk up and down those hills, but after nine heart bypasses and two minor heart attacks, we make an exception for my brother and others who have had similar troubles.)

I know some people out here in the West who ride horses to hunt. They ride to the campsite, trailing the packhorses and riding. The horses are picketed; the hunters may or may not ride to the hunting area -- those I know usually don't.

As for the prevelance of foxes and deer -- that, I suggest, is in Britain. In the US deer are numerous that some years ago the head of the Schuykill Nature Conservancy in Philadelphia called them "rats with antlers" and others in other places have expressed similar sentiments.

As for the movie "Bambi" -- I think that Walt Disney's credibility in nature films has been thoroughly established. I particularily like, in "Bambi", the statement that Bambi's mother was killed by hunters when, in the original book, she was killed by poachers.

My feelings about Fox Hunting are simple: unless the hunters are ready to chase the critter on foot, they shouldn't be allowed to chase it on horses. And they should have to get written permission to cross the property of someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

I like deer: the animal, the leather and the meat. We have so damn many of them that they are a hazard on highways and roads in Alberta.

Gutting one takes a little time, especially if you want to keep the hide. The brain is a good thing to rub on the hide when you have it removed because it helps preserve the leather and make the skin more pliable.

Of course, amny people who enjoy their steak have never helped cut the nuts off a young steer--but hey, that's what it takes. Meat doesn't start out in a grocery store plastic tray covered with plastic wrap. Steak once went moo and walked around.

I have always been bothered by folks who don't mind someone else doing the 'dirty' work. There's lots of that goin' around. Not that I think you fox hunters are that way. Let me know how you feel when you are upto your elbows in guts. The odor isn't the best, but it all washes off when ya take a shower. Just like the smell of the fox when it shits after you kill it.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM

brucie - Don't gross them out!

Its true though, about doing your own dirty work.

My grandmother almost died when I was 13. She stopped eating sugar and salt but in addition, she refused to eat any meat unless it was killed by one of her sons. Luckily, they were all hunters. She lived until she was past 90.

I learned from her that its O.K. to eat meat but only if you or your family does the dirty work. I've gutted animals and hated it. I've also scraped hides (this is also unpleasant) but I will never understand killing for sport.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:53 PM

I did it once. I will never do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:28 PM

And then there is my oldest neice. She went deer hunting at 13, and the the boys tried to "gross her out" when they gutted the deer.

There is was, hung up in a shed, the body cavity open and the innards becoming outards, and the boys said, "Come on and see!" And her response was to closely inspect the innards and say, from her heart, "COOOOOOOOL!"

That was what she said to me later when she was describing it. Coooool.

She is now working on a PhD in microbiology.

If you're not willing and able to kill and butcher your own meat, don't eat it. If you're not willing and able to grow your own veggies, don't eat them. In short, if you're not willing and able to feed yourself....

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 06:24 AM

It is poachers in Bambi - not hunters.
And I'm not killing - just following. On a horse. The difference - I don't care if we catch anything or not.
As I've said before - I would go drag hunting, but there just aren't any around.
And the foxes and the deer? Just my personal preference. I know how much damage deer can do.
Oh, and the majority of hunts do get permisssion before going across someone else's land. Except the arrogant a**holes who don't - they're giving hunting and hunters a bad name and no one much likes them. Including other hunts, and farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

The arrogance of the pseudoaristocracy can be dealt with. A nice hedge of blackthorn on top of an earthern wall, or better still, rose bushes. What I'm suggesting is something that won't hurt the horse or the dogs.

And you ain't ridin' if you're doin' that wall jumpin' on top of one of them postage-stamp peices of leather some people call "saddles." You ought to try some real
riding one of these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

Fox hunting. Not for meat or pelt, but vermin control.

If cruelty is your concern, gassing and shooting cause more suffering.
The fox population will not be allowed to increase.

You may not approve the sport, but by what right do you judge?

Real ecology is not like Beatrice Potter. A spared fox will not die peacefully in its bed. A lingering death by starvation or by scavengers when weakened is all that awaits them, and life is short.

If you really care about animal suffering, this is a distraction.
Campaign against habitat destruction that is starving so many thousands that whole species are becoming endangered.
Campaign against industrialised livestock production.
Campaign against the torment caused by the export of live animals, and barbaric slaughter methods.
All these things matter.
Fox hunting does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Damned straight, KAoH.

The single biggest threat to wildlife (and our life) is habitat destruction. Not hunting, not radioactive waste, but houses and shopping malls and factories and parking lots.

Your house. My house.

If you want to do good for wildlife, buy an old house and renovate it (mine was built in 1968, but there are those #@!$%! mini-mansions further up the hill -- badly constructed (in my opinion), way overpriced, and merely something to further some fool's ego). Buy a house in town, tear it down if you want and rebuild on the lot.

Sorry. I see habitat destruction every day around here and it's one of my hot buttons.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:37 PM

Keith and Rapaire - You are both absolutely right. Habitat destruction is the biggest problem for wildlife.

It is, however, a mindset, that creates the problem. People have to learn that the web of life includes all animals. Anyone who participates in a blood sport is a long way from understanding the importance of habitat.

Hopefully, banning fox hunting will raise the consciousness of people who think that killing is just innocent fun.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM

I am more interested at the moment about the constitutional law arguments and how Donaldson MR can have said what he apparently did about the Parliament Acts.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

Richard: I'm in Canada. What did he say, SVP? Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

Keith A you hit the nail on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

"Fox hunting. Not for meat or pelt, but vermin control".

Since fox hunting was banned in Scotland two years ago twice as many foxes have been killed. It does seem to me therefore that the current style of fox hunting where the fox is torn to pieces by dogs is singularly inefficient.

In fact the largest numbers of foxes are urban foxes, we have plenty is Sheffield the fifth largest city in England for example. Never seen a hunt down here though......

And when fox hunters go out from now on can I suggest you avoid them like the plague. None will carry any sort of insurance of course.......you can't get insurance for illegal activities.

Best regards,

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

Efficiency is not the point.
A hunted fox dies or escapes. Shot foxes are often wounded but escape to a lingering agonising death.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:18 AM

Why don`t they do what they done in Tasmania [Van Diemans Land]?.    When the English colonists arrived to turn the Island into a prison colony they discovered the scaricty of any animal resembling a fox, so they turned to hunting and chasing the native population as an alternitive, as a result the first successful elimination of a race of people ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:53 AM

I'm still not convinced that allowing hounds to run down and then tear up an animal is particularly more humane than a bullet. Having participated in hunts and witnessed hounds on occasion overtaking racoons before they could tree, made a bullet seem pretty blessed to me, by comparison. Perhaps it was because I was young.

Then again, there are those that get their rocks off watching roosters armed with blades on their spurs, rip each other apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:02 AM

Having banned foxhunting can protestors now turn their attention to another cruel sport? This sport involves the followers inflicting injury on other humans and even killing each other. It totally disrupts town centres and involves an inordinate amount of police time and manpower. The followers cause chaos whenever they meet, instilling fear and trepidation in the public. The damage they leave behind costs the local taxpayers a fortune to clear up. The parking difficulties caused to local residents by these followers has to be seen to be believed.
The participants are an overpaid and overprivileged elite class who consider themselves above the law. They delight in appearing on television to extol their own virtues, although generally they are scarcely able to enunciate a coherent sentence.
It appears that any protestor at a meeting may be brutalised by the followers, even though that protestor is only stating a difference of opinion.
These persecuted individuals are Human Beings, sentient creatures just like other animals.
Can we please now ban FOOTBALL ?
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:02 AM

Just so that Keith A understands clearly - the current method of fox hunting as vermin control has been shown to be incredibly inefficient.

It has been shown to be inefficient not by guess work or what might happen to a fox when it is shot, but by real life experience over the past two years in a country not a million miles from here.

Now if Keith wants to defend fox hunting as vermin control IMHO it is not a very good argument and it is proven not to be a very good argument. Frankly I would have more respect if he admitted that they get a cheap thrill from chasing foxes with hounds.

And since, as a person from a large city I am one of those often told I am someone who doesn't understand the countryside, please explain which bit(s)I don't understand........

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:05 AM

Well said, Keith!
How many of those who are celebrating the end of fox-hunting will quite happily sit down to a meal of battery-farmed eggs and intensively-reared bacon? Modern commercial food production imposes infinitely more unspeakable cruelty than any sport, yet we condone it every time we go the the supermarket.
The thought for nearly 750 hours of parliamentary time wasted on this piece of knee-jerk legislation when there are far more important things to deal with makes my blood boil. Still throw a sop to the deluded bunny-huggers and maybe they'll forgive some of the other iniquities of this government.
As for habitat and conservation; half the coverts and hedges in England would have been grubbed out two generations ago if it wasn't for the hunting and shooting they afford. As a keen shot, habitat management is in my interest, and I recall that half the time I spent out with my fowling mates was actually on work parties repairing dykes, sluices and sea defences to ensure that the habitat was preserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:10 AM

We raise chickens by the billions here, we have more foxes than Britain, yet they are not a problem. I wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:37 AM

Folkiedave,
Again, efficiency does not matter.
These people do it for nothing, and provide much needed rural employment.
Suffering matters.
Efficient or not the farmers who want the fox controlled are content.
Who gains by criminalising a traditional persuit? Not the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: IanC
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

Kendall

Guess how many chickens in the US are raised extensibly (i.e. out in the open).

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:32 AM

So fox hunting is not really about vermin control - its really about rural employment.

Well, when fox hunting was banned in Scotland there were ten hunts. Now there are ten hunts and twice as many foxes killed. Sounds to me that is an excellent argument for the Scottish system.

As for who benefits from a traditional pursuit being banned......

Well.....the same people who benefited when badger-baiting, bear-baiting, bull-running etc were banned. They were traditional sports too. As no doubt was mammoth-hunting at one time. People become civilized. It really is that simple.

Some refuse to do so. Fine. I am looking forward to the day when the hunts go out hunting without any insurance.

And I am still waiting for someone to explain the bit of the countryside I don't understand.....

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM

If hunting with dogs is so efficient, why do they need the 30 or 40 people with horses? Nobody has ever suggested that we keep the hunting with dogs (because it's so efficient) but limit the hunters to 3 or 4. I wonder why? Perhaps the argument has something to do with ritual animal cruelty.

The same argument applies to drag hunting, surely. It's no fun if there's no animal cruelty involved.

If there's a problem with wounded and suffering foxes, get some people who can shoot straight, and stop shooting at the armour-plated ones. You'll be telling me next that hunts have never encouraged foxes to breed and multiply so they'll have something to hunt.

Good songs though.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM

thats alright because I'm going to take up fox racing, of course it may LOOK similar, but it is very different honest. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

It was once argued too, that eliminating the tradition of using slave labour would cause economic hardship for those associated with it.

Attempting to justify a blood sport by claiming that others condone or ignore the inhumane treatment of animals associated with food production is a bit of a red herring. It would seem far more rational to advocate for the humane treatment and/or control of all animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:42 PM

I have heard many a farmer complain about the destruction that the hunt causes when they ride rough-shod across the land, some farmers told me they have shot the odd fox but would prefer to shoot the arrogant huntspeople, a much bigger pest than the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

In sheep-farming areas, like Wales and the Fells, most farmers welcome the hunt. The trouble is, the popular perception of hunting comes from the packs in wealthy areas where they're stuffed woth tossers and wankers who give hunting a bad name. Much like 4x4 drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:11 PM

I agree with Colyn!

but Folkiedave - there are about ten hunts in south somerset alone!

And you people who say you don't like the fact that the people are on horses - how do you feel about the hunts that just use dogs and feet? Out of curiosity.

And Les from Hull - the question you raise is the very point I have been trying to make. You don't need anybody on horseback - people just go for the fun of the riding. Next time you see a hunt out ask how many of them actually care if they catch anything or not - I bet most of them don't. And if there were more drag hunts around the country I bet people would support them more - it just needs some more people to set up.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM

Laura, I didn't observe anyone particularly incensed with people on horseback on this thread. As one who owns horses and who has racked up hundreds and hundreds of miles on horseback, I think I would have picked up on any overt prejudice.

However, regarding hunts using just dogs and feet, from my experience, as noted above, it does provide a particularly visceral view of a terrified animal being torn apart, as well as a providing a greater opportunity to be splattered with blood and gore, that one may not have the pleasure of experiencing from a higher vantage point.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:03 PM

A fox is a difficult target for a one shot kill.
A fox with its jaw shot away would escape. How long to die?
A leg shot through? Gut shot?
The fox will be controlled, so banning hunting results in MORE SUFFERING NOT LESS, otherwise I would support it.
That it sustains some rural families is a bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

Keith - I agree.
Metchosin - sorry. it may have been on the other thread - the fight the ban thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

No many good marksmen in the UK, eh? Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

If you can't shoot worth a damn, don't use a rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

I don't recall anything negative being said about horseriding in itself. There were a few whinges (one coming from me) about hunters riding over private property without asking permission, and becoming quite belligerent when challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM

Might seem strange but I am not against horse riding - nor have I ever met or even heard of anyone who was.

I have an idea. Why not go to some country area - look for a prominent landmark - let's say a steeple - and then have a "chase" or race towards it. Here's an idea....call it "steeplechasing".

"A fox is a difficult target for a one shot kill.

Not in Scotland it seems....

"A fox with its jaw shot away would escape". How long to die?

No idea...tell me....and at the same time tell me how often it has happened.

"The fox will be controlled..." well eliminated really as you wanted when it was vermin and not just a creature for your so-called sport....

"so banning hunting results in MORE SUFFERING NOT LESS, otherwise I would support it".

I see. So now it is about suffering. Tell me the difference between being shot and being torn to pieces by hounds. From a fox's point of view of course.

And for those still following this argument - at this point Keith will introduce the problem of chickens torn apart by foxes. Because he really loves animals....except for foxes of course.

"That it sustains some rural families is a bonus".

Shame that all the Scottish experience which banned fox hunting in 2002 tells a totally different story. Real, genuine, proven experience. Like I keep on saying based on proven fact. It results in less suffering and more foxes being killed.

Don't let the facts spoil a good story.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

I would like to know how the dogs (in England) are trained to chase the fox.

I once visited some shirt-tail relatives that raised hounds. Training those animals was gruesome.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM

Excuse me, but I thought I said, and said quite strongly, that I am NOT in favor of fox hunting as it has been traditionally done in England.

If the fox is a problem, shoot it or trap it and release it far away.

If you can't shoot well, get someone who can. If you object to killing an animal, live trap the critter and either remove it or have it removed to a remote area.

I am someone who has hunted and who hopes to, perhaps, someday, maybe, go hunting again. If I do that AND I have the chance to kill an animal for food I will do so as humanely as is in my power -- with one shot if at all possible. Anything less degrades both the animal and myself.

Tearing an animal to pieces with dogs is NOT hunting as I know it. (Neither, for that matter, are some of the things I'm seen done by...I can't dignify them by calling them "hunters").

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

dianavan, training doesn't have to be gruesome at all, one can use bottled scent on a drag and reward and young hounds soon learn from the older dogs as well.

Unfortunately, at one time, some dickheads involved in this kind of "sport" in this country found the realism of using a live animal (any old housecat will do) far more exhilarating, especially with a dust up and a bit of blood and guts as their reward. (The dogs themselves were just as excited and pleased with a terrific run and a pat, dust up or not, a lot more sensible than a lot of humans in most cases.)

It was also a very stupid way to train, because, particularly in the case of cougars, you don't want your hounds too nonchalant about approaching a supersized cat, as you will quite possibly end up with a lot of vet bills or one or two very expensive dead dogs. Even a large raccoon can inflict some pretty deep wounds and scars by hanging on to one dog's nose while another dog is simultaneously pulling on its tail, in the opposite direction.

Conservation officers here still require the use of hounds to track cougars that are causing problems on sheep farms or have strayed into residential areas. And if you think getting a good shot off in the comparatively open terrain of the UK is difficult, try using a tranquilizer gun in the bush here. Those involved here become very adept.

I'm not at all familiar with how they train hounds in the UK for fox hunting and its been many years since I've had any close contact with the cougar hunting fraternity here, but human nature being what it is, I'd consider myself very naive to think that abuses and animal cruelty have been entirely eliminated from the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM

Second time in quite a short while that I'm in tune with DougR. Dangerous territory.

The guest who mentioned the Blencathra/Saddleback hunt was spot on. This is far removed from the toff-led image usually projected, and if there were an acceptable face of fox-hunting, this would be it. But I don't think there is, as I have just made plain in my longest-ever Mudcat post. (Takes for ever to load if you haven't got broadband, but worth teh wait of course....)

What kind of idiot Laura is I can't imagine. Prefers drag hunting to foxhunting but now finds herself compelled to go foxhunting before it is illegal, even though she is not yet up to it, and even though the ban will no doubt result in more drag meets (by which time she might also be more competent on a horse). Won't go deerhunting because of a Disney cartoon character, but couldn't care less whether foxes are hunted to the death or not, even though she finds foxes (the real things, this time) cute and cuddly (which they're not). Maybe when she grows up, she'll come back to this nonsense and try to make sense of it. But with any luck she'll get to do that foxhunt for which she isn't ready but has to do in protest; hit a ditch while gaily yelling Tally-ho, and break her neck. I just wouldn't want the horse to get hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

FolkieDave, a fox with its jaw shot off takes about three days to die. I've seen it happen. I've also seen (and smelled) foxes with shattered legs and gangrenous wounds that most have caused a slow and agonosing death.
Trouble is, most farmers use a shotgun to shoot foxes, not a rifle, and that doesn't kill quickly or cleanly. Very few of them are going to get out a rifle powerful enough to despatch a fox and carry it around with them day to day. The result is that most DIY fox control is pretty inhumane. Good keepers will go lamping with a proper rifle and account for many foxes, but they are looking after their own game, and tend not to roam around helping out local farmers because they've already got enough to do.
To shoot a running beast with a rifle takes a lot of skill, which most people don't have. The Welsh packs near me shoot their foxes, and the marksmen are superb shots. It also helps to have hilly and sparsely populated country so the terrain can cope with rounds that miss rather than having them travel for maybe half a mile - letting off rifle rounds in flat territory like Norfolk or Lincolnshire is asking for trouble!
I'm afraid I can't agree with Peter's view of working class hunters as a bunch of rednecks. The packs I've come across (away from the Country Life-reading belt) are as varied as folkies (and sometimes one and the same - there are at least three non-toffs who hunt who post here on Mudcat).

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:51 AM

Folkiedave, a fox will be dead within a minute of being seized by a hound.
What happens afterwards hardly matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:10 PM

Folkiedave
"I see, Now it is about suffering"
Suffering and cruelty was my expressed concern in each of my posts.
Read them.
As I said, that thousands of rural families are sustained is a bonus.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

Time flies when your having fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM

"Folkiedave, a fox will be dead within a minute of being seized by a hound.
What happens afterwards hardly matters".

Well.........to the fox it does.

Anyway let me know when you are off hunting again lads/lasses. Since you aren't insured I need to stay well clear of both you and your vehicles.

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

The quick kill justification was used here with regard to housecats and while one quick flick by a single terrier can dispatch a rat in seconds, it has been my experience with a pack of hounds that any body part of an animal it can reach will do in the frenzy and on occasion things do not go exactly as anticipated.

Sloppy predator control, regarding farmers is a different matter and IMO should be regarded as a separte issue, not a justification. Perhaps better education of farmers and more trained animal control or conservation officers would improve the situation, especially in areas where large populations of opportunistic foxes are demed to be causing serious economic damage to those in the poultry industry. It certainly would add a few more gainfully employed bodies. Live trapping is an option, as is better security for the animals in ones care.

I live in an area with a healthy population of raccoon and mink, (neither species providing the side benefit of rodent control), which can and do cause problems regarding poultry, if the opportunity presents itself. The key word is opportunity. The occasional loss of a bird that I have experienced here, has been due to my own stupidity and was not the fault of the predators basic instinct.

If the true appeal of the hunt is the riding, I cannot for the life of me see what substantial difference it should make when the route is determined by hounds pursuing a predetermined set trail using a drag.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

True Metchosin -

There is nothing sadder than entering a chicken coop the morning after a visit from a mink. A good dog will keep the predator away. No need to chase after the mink with a horse or a pack of hounds. I doubt very much if a fox hunt is really the answer to predator control.

Its a blood sport. Those that partake need to have their heads adjusted.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:04 PM

I think Folkiedave must have misread Ketih's comment that "what happens next hardly matters." My difficulty with what Keith said is that though it may be true that a fox is dead within one (presumably unpleasant) minute of being seized by a hound, this is not what happens in a foxhunt. Hounds get in each other's way, they are frantic with excitement and sometimes they even catch each other with their teeth. It is not unknown for the fox, similarly frantic for other reasons, to break loose and make a yard or two before being re-seized. Neither is it unknown for the fox to be despatched by being stretched to tearing point between two sets of jaws.

In response to Gervase and Metchosin, I do agree that opportunity shooting by amateurs - eg farmers armed with shotguns aiming at moving targets - would be a whooly unsatisfactory substitute for the hunt, and I would be delighted if such practice was banned ahead of hunting with hounds. Lamping is a different proposition, not least because the marksmen are there specifically for the purpose, with appropriate rifles, and will not usually be aiming at moving targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

Peter K (Fionn) Thank you for confirming my suspicions that what I have observed happening here to raccoons and housecats, beset by a pack of hounds, is similar to what happens in the UK, with regard to foxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:11 PM

Obviously people are never going to agree about the rights and wrongs of hunting. Unfortunately too many people seem to be able to express an opinion, and seek to tell others what they should do, without ever having been near a hunt, let alone having been at the kill. All they might have seen is edited highlights from a newscast or propaganda film produced by either side.
I have seen my own single dog kill a fox with one bite in the neck. Any half-decent dog should be able to do that, otherwise give the dog to a "townie" as a fashion statement.
Hunt do not ride rough-shod over land over which they do not have permission, otherwise the laws of trespass are flouted. Farmers invite the hunts to their land. If the hounds stray where they are not wanted they are called off immediately.
Previous comments regarding the "class issue" seem again to have been made using surmise rather than knowledge. Hunt members cone from all walks of life, as widely varied as folkies, football fans or any other interest. It is purely because it makes good TV news to state that a member of the aristocracy has been hunting, or to interview Colonel Double-Barrelled for a news feature. My daughter, the wife of an agricultural labourer, hunts and she spends less on her horse and hunting than many of you might spend on watching first-team football.
Regarding the shooting of foxes, yes, the majority of those shot are put up by coincidence and often the gun is loaded with too light a cartridge, the shooter not expecting to see a fox. If the fox is "pricked" it will likely die of gangrene, it's only natural enemy. That is a most painful death I would not wish on any creature.
Use of a rifle in UK, compared with a shotgun, is very strictly controlled and there have been cases where the police will not allow use of a rifle due to proximity of public footpaths. The "right to roam" legislation and insistence upon ancient rights of way being left open has made this problem more acute. One cannot compare the situation in UK with that of any other country. We have recently had situations in this country where an army of armed police with helicopter support have descended on perfectly legal clay-pigeon shooters because some member of the public heard spent shot falling and assumed they were the target!
Yes, let's have the Scottish system. The same number of hunts before and after the legislation and more foxes killed. I wonder how they manage it?
Colyn

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:40 PM

"Hunt do not ride rough-shod over land over which they do not have permission, "

Sorry, but they've done it to me. Three times, in fact...

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:33 AM

The hunting fraternity are NOT blissfully ignorant, they know well that farmers have been rode rough-shod, without asking any permission, and as for those crack-shot Yanks, well, if they miss their prey they make up for it by shooting a human, it`s called "friend in the line of fire".

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:37 AM

Fionn - don't pretend you know me.
Or anything about me.
You have no idea why I feel this way about foxhunting, or how competent I am on a horse. (which, for the benefit or the argument, is about twelve years worth of riding - competent enough for you?)
You're making up what you want to say on the basis of a few things I've said on here. (if you can point out exactly where I said foxes were cuddly I'd be grateful.)
If you have to resort to insults you obviously don't have any valid points to make and therefore should keep out of the discussion unless you have something constructive to say.
Don't patronize me.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:30 PM

Apologies Laura, you didn't say cuddly. You said "I like foxes as much as the next person, very cute, very lovely." But it's a small distinction, I would have thought - not enough to put any logic into your enthusiasm for joining the hunt. As for your hosreriding skills, it is possible to be a good rider yet still not confident to follow hounds. I thought this was where you were at, purely on the evidence of your own posts. I won't look it up now,but I thought you said somewhere that because of the forthcoming ban you would now join a hunt, even though you would have preferred to leave it a while yet. Have I got that wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:18 PM

Well - it's more a fact that the horse in question is far more experienced in the hunting field (ha. ha.) than I am - which could go either way.
Apologies if I seemed umm... hostile. I was being defensive - but then you did say I'm an idiot!!! And you appeared to be loosely basing your argument on my comments, and presenting your opinions as though they were fact.
I think I am more against the idea of the government going around banning things - I mean, where does it stop? But hunting is something that has always looked quite fun - I don't care enough to break the law once it's banned - so I shall go while I still have the chance. Even if I'm a bit nervous!
And having re-read your post I almost feel inclined to withdraw my goodwill! You implied you would rather I died.
Humph.
:-~

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

But I'm just a poor misguided teenager. No - I'm misunderstood! hahaha.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:23 PM

GREAT NEWS

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:28 PM

"But I'm just a poor misguided teenager. No - I'm misunderstood! hahaha."

I understand you...but then i'm a misguided teenager, too...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:29 PM

Boxhunting fanned? Won't that make any fire in the boxes worse and make them harder to hunt? What if they burn all the boxes and there are none left to hunt?

Scary thought...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM

"Ain't no delinquents, we're misunderstood!
Deep down inside us there is good!"
- West Side Story

yeh!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Wotcha
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:39 AM

"Poor Tommy's Dead

Grey Goose, Gone Home,

And the Fox is away, Oh!

In the morning ..."



Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:12 AM

Guest Colyn, I have no doubt that a "good dog" is capable of snapping the neck of a fox. I know that a "good dog" can also dispatch a more robust prey in the same manner. I also know from "intimate experience", that even with "good dogs", things can and do go awry and subsequently, things can get a bit "messy", particularly with a pack.
      
Initially when I looked at this thread, from all the sturm und drang regarding the red fox, I was under the impression that the rural areas of the UK had been over run by foxes and that the animal was somehow a very serious predator that caused a lot of economic hardship.

When I looked further, according to data from the UK's own DEFRA, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland and other recent studies, the damage to agriculture caused by the fox is rated as insignificant and apparently there was no change with this "insignificant" problem when the Hunt was banned because of BSE.

I also discovered in my search that artificial earths are quite commonly constructed and foxes are sometimes fed at these manufactured dens, to ensure a healthy population of foxes. This sounds like a pretty bizarre method of predator control to me.

In this context, "The Hunt" as a form of pest control, looks rather like an animated version of a Heath Robinson or Rube Goldberg contraption. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: John Routledge
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:45 AM

How many people are really concerned with foxhunting? Very few.

So said Deputy Prime Minister - John Prescott - this week.

And we all thought that the ban was about stopping cruelty to foxes.:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:13 PM

Metchosin: To quote Dianavan, "A+ on the homework."

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:28 PM

Banning foxhunting is a sop to the left wing by Blair and New Labour. It will work because the only people who care are those who are naive enough to still think that hunting is a pursuit of the foxhunting stereotype.

It's sad, I know, but I went through the thread to identify some of the dickhead stereotyping that naive people have posted, in order;

"aristocrats, conservative, Charles, upper class, bastards, unspeakable, Rodneys, Charles and Camilla, station in life, a class, the rich, high class incestuous deviances, rich and aristocratic bastards, monied class, scarlet jackets" etc etc. What a load of bollocks.

As anyone brought up in the countryside knows, and as has been said throughout the thread, foxhunting is populated by ordinary people from all walks of life. I would have thought these days that only the really stupid would any longer believe the stereotype.

One guy referred to how they might now have to resort to.....sailing. Sailing? What the fuck does he think sailing has to do with anything -does he think that is another sport that only toffs do? He'd get a shock if he came to my sailing club!

I don't do foxhunting, but I don't see it as a big issue either. I just think this government is meddling for meddling's sake.

Another fascinating bit of legislation they went through with recently at taxpayers expense was passing a law to make it legal for homosexuals to indulge their sexual practices in public toilets. Just who exactly thought up that little gem?

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 03:17 PM

Why should it be any surprise that "ordinary" people from all walks of life would be any less capable of being thick skinned, oblivious or outright sadistic, along with the supposed "best" of them, when it comes to the treatment of animals. After all, to some, mimicry is the highest form of flattery.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:11 PM

thankyou Terry! I take my hat off to you.
that is what I have been TRYING to say these last... God it feels like years!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:38 PM

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:52 PM

No, Metchosin, you have completely missed the point. Whether or not you think that foxhunting should be banned is of no real importance, no matter what your reasoning. The issue is only about the incredible degree of interference that Blair and his cohorts have inflicted on us. All of the reasons behind the ban are as nought, the goverment have no interest in cruelty to animals, it's simply a bit of cynical political manoeuvering. And no doubt the sheep-like electorate, armed with their stereotypes, will once again completely fall for it.

Personally, I think they should have spent a little more of that time and energy deciding whether it was a good idea to follow a congenital idiot into ill thought out wars at the expense of the loss of who knows how many innocent Afghans and Iraqis.

But for those who believe a few foxes should take priority in the political priority list, so be it.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 01:38 AM

Sounds like you have your priorities straight, Terry.

...but now I'm curious, you said: "Another fascinating bit of legislation they went through with recently at taxpayers expense was passing a law to make it legal for homosexuals to indulge their sexual practices in public toilets. Just who exactly thought up that little gem?"

How stupid is that? Does that go for hetero's too? Won't they have to build special little 'he and she' rooms to accomodate the lusty?

I don't get it. What was the rationale for such a law and how was it worded? Are you putting me on?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:01 AM

Just out of curiosity....what does fox taste like?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Terry K
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:30 PM

Dianavan, I kid you not - the Blair Government has such a huge majority that they can get away with anything they like. It does not go for hetero's - I suppose on the principle that public loos are all single sex. Or that they are trying to ban heterosexual sex as well as foxhunting!

Their excuse for such a distasteful affront to public decency is that the practice is so widespread that if all the participants were arrested, it would flood the Courts. The answer? - stop it being illegal! Great news for the battle against AIDS.

Like cannabis was de-rated on the drugs register so that they wouldn't have to arrest people any more. Like burglary no longer carries even so much as a fine for a first offence - they get "a caution" - what kind of message does that send to a burglar. And to a burglar's son. And to his son, and so on and so on.

Time to emigrate.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 03:20 PM

"As anyone brought up in the countryside knows, and as has been said throughout the thread, foxhunting is populated by ordinary people from all walks of life. "

I've been brought up in the countryside, and i've seen absolutely no evidence to support the above statement. Must be all that weed clouding my judgement...

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 03:41 PM

Tastes a bit like dog, but much 'gamier'. Slow simmer or it's tougher than poplar bark. Don't believe these aristocrat types who say it tastes like chicken. T'ain't so.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:28 PM

It tastes like duck, with a hint of pork - nice with redcurrant jelly.
:-p

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

It does NOT taste like duck, fer gawd's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

oh sorry - maybe I was eating a duck not a fox..... :-P

I stick by the redcurrant jelly though!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:40 PM

Laura,

Where it says dog think fox. Bon appetit.

Google    Emergency Food Preparation

Baked Dog DiRocco
1 small dog
10 bay leaves or any aromatic spice
1 onion
1 pod hot red pepper
1 GI mess kit spoon salt
black pepper
3 slices bacon

Mike DiRocco, who served three tours in Vietnam, offers a good tip on selecting the best dog for cooking. He says the Vietnamese judge how tender the dog will be by color; a white dog is best, brown second best and lastly a black dog. Skin and clean dog. Remove the glands from under the legs (they have a strong taste, though they are not harmful if eaten). Cut into sections. Put pieces in a pot. Add bay leaves or aromatics, then onion, red pepper and salt. Cover with cold water. Cover pot and boil gently for 30 minutes. Drain meat and discard water and seasonings. Cover again with cold water and boil for 1 hour. Again pour out the water and drain. Cover dog with cold water for a third time and cover pot. Boil gently until tender, about 1 hour. Drain. Put dog in pan. Season with plenty of black pepper and salt if needed. Cover with slices of bacon or fat pork. Put in a clay oven or a covered pan placed in hot coals and covered with coals. Bake for 1-1/2 hours. Make gravy with pan juices.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM

Good recipe on that site for both cat and rat. I'll try the rat one if I trap anytime soon. Lots of muskrat in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM

nice.

what - so not even apple source???
what kind of a recipe is that then!

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:52 PM

You, my deah, seem to have led a sheltered life. The last time I ate duck it was thrown onto a fire to singe the feathers. It was scraped and boiled, and the people with whom I ate it felt lucky to have it. Me too, come to think of it. Potatoes, onion and some carrot; salt and pepper.

Oh, yeah, we gutted it before throwing it into the pot and the dogs ate the guts.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:53 PM

PS It was teal, and they taste like shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM

Yes, but thats becasue I am a millionaire and I live off duck and roast 'snips and apple source. :-p

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

"roast 'snips and apple source."

Neat. What are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:59 PM

If i was a millionaire, i'd be living off drugs and groupies. I wouldn't last long...not as a millionaire, anyhoo...

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:01 PM

Well, Laura, take a tip from a colonial: Don't eat teal, because it really does taste like shit. Of course, if there is ever a bad slump in the market, remember to gut it before ya boil it.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:08 PM

Well it has been ages since I visited this one....some interesting posts.

Terry K....I note you are thinking of emigrating. To where pray? And what are the criteria for the country you hope will let you in? Clearly supporting hunting is one. Any more?

Let's assume for a moment that hunting is a good thing. I can see it might take fifteen hounds or even pairs of hounds to catch one small fox..clearly the fox is brainier than the hounds because the hounds have suffered all that interbreeding (bit like the Royal Family I suppose)...but why so many people? The Beaufort had a hundred riders and 50 foot followers when Princess Anne went out with them last week. Never understood that bit. Clearly not about vermin control!!!

Since there are people from all walks of life perhaps someone could give us a rough idea of cost to go hunting on horseback. Hunt subscription per year, vehicle, horsebox, stabling, depreciation on horse, cost of days off work to go hunting etc.....Let's see how much you have to be earning to go hunting on horseback.

I might even get to understand the countryside a bit more.

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:12 PM

Re. the comments from TerryK about homosexual sex in publicloos etc. This law will not apply to heterosexuasls as I have it on good authority that in hios next budget Brown will require all males to be fitted with a sexometer.
This will record all sexual activity on hte basis of speed, time and distance travelled (i.e. fore-and-aft motion), upon which an annual tax will be levied.
Back to foxhunting:- comment from Labour MP Peter Bradley:- "We ought at last to own up to it: the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal welfare and personal freedom. It was class war."
If petty jealousies over how someone makes or spends their money are still paramount in New Labour's "classless society" then perhaps the MP's need to take a look at the results of their years of Government.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Terry K
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:25 AM

Folkiedave - you've missed the whole point as well. If you can manage to read a full sentence you will note that my earlier post says

"I don't do foxhunting, but I don't see it as a big issue either. I just think this government is meddling for meddling's sake".

The emigration thing is my despair about public toilets being turned over to become meeting places for unattached gays to try to get themselves attached, literally, and the fact that first-time trainee burglars are not dissuaded from their activities. Not about foxhunting. You see. Geddit?

Now, of course, if you agree with those things.........

(note to self: why am I bothering to try to explain anything to someone who is so obviously pretending to be a stupid twat in order to wind me up)

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:29 AM

"roast 'snips and apple source."

I still wanna know what these things are.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:06 AM

Its the UK brucie, which probably guarantees that 'snips won't be prairie oysters.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: darkriver
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:40 AM

oh gawrsh.

I thought this was going to be in line with other of John's posts, and talk about the Hull Foxhunting Band -- a group of ne'er-do-wells doing nowt, striking defiant poses in bullfighter capes, clutching didgeridoos and arguing about curry.

What a disappointment!

doug

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 05:40 AM

'Snips is parsnips. apple sauce is Bramley apples boiled to a sharp-tasting mush with a couple of cloves - lovely, particularly with fatty stuff like pork.
And teal's delicious if you bard it with bacon and roast it quickly in a very hot oven, so it's still slightly pink.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: davidmeredith
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 06:04 AM

Roast hedgehog is delicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 07:18 AM

As an answer to Folkiedave, it is irrelevant what it might cost to keep a horse and to hunt. If that is a person's interest then they are entitled to spend their money in that manner.
My daughter is the wife of an agricultural labourer, a cowman. She does not smoke, drinks very little and rarely has an evening out. The only holiday she has had in the last 35 years has been the last two years when she stewarded at Sidmouth in order to get a holiday on the cheap. All her spare cash is spent on her equestrian hobby including hunting. That is her choice.
By contrast my brother-in-law is a very well-off business-man who spends much more on a season ticket to a Premier Division football team, plus his travelling and overnight accommodation. That, also, is his choice. It is not for any one of us to tell another how they should spend their money.
Personally I am ambivalent about hunting, other than when the hunters fall off they come to me to patch up their aches and pains. That is my income.
The whole issue is not just about hunting. It has been stated by John Prescott M.P. and Peter Bradley M.P. (see earlier posts) that it is a "class" thing. It is just as much a town versus country thing, particularly as this Government via John Prescott has stated that the countryside "does not matter".
Sure, there are many out there who might live in a country village but they are essentially townsfolk. They work and take their entertainment in the towns and cities. How many of them know the difference between wheat and barley? How many of them could differentiate between a rook and a crow? Equally there are townsfolk who are country people at heart, having had to leave the villages for work in the towns but retaining a love of the countryside and the activities therein.
The point of the foxhunting Bill is not about the fox itself but about "class" and whether or not it is right to dictate to another how they should live or entertain themselves, providing it does no harm to another person or community.
It is a similar issue to the "Two in a bar" legislation.
The animal activists have stated that shooting and fishing will come next. If ever there were classless groups then the shooting and fishing communities would be high on the list.
"I may not agree with what you say but I would defend to the death your right to say it" is a maxim which seems to have been forgotten by many.
Now, if people really want to do something useful, refer to my post of 22 November.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:13 PM

first and formost - parsnips and apple source. yes. as Gervase said. and they are both DELICIOUS!!!!!!
And I am a millionaire and I plan to be a dictator when I 'grow up' so if anyone would like to be in charge of any countries you'd better be nice to me!!! (slightly irrelevent but I thought I'd mention it! :-p )

Dave - most hunts take place on sundays. hunt subscriptions are not that much - not do you actually have to subscribe for most hunts - just pay for the hunt you plan to go on. and al the people - well thats the people who enjoy galloping arouns the coutryside! or tramping around the countryside on foot!

This thread appears to have drifted back to it's original purpose - how strange... :-)


xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:28 PM

Can't have that, can we?

Mark Twain said that golf was a poor excuse to interrupt a good walk.

Thank you for the info on 'snips and source. Also, the recipe on teal. However, I'll just eat the larding and forego the duck.