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Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions

GUEST,leeneia 19 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM
mg 19 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM
Chris Green 19 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Nov 04 - 01:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Nov 04 - 01:33 PM
Padre 19 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM
Bernard 19 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM
Jack Hickman 19 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,murray on Saltspring 19 Nov 04 - 05:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Nov 04 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,leeneia 19 Nov 04 - 11:37 PM
Joe Offer 20 Nov 04 - 01:24 AM
mg 20 Nov 04 - 01:44 AM
Joe Offer 20 Nov 04 - 02:22 AM
GUEST,dunlace 20 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM
mg 20 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Nov 04 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,robert 10 Sep 10 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Sep 10 - 03:54 AM
Joe Offer 11 Sep 10 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM
Joe Offer 11 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

I'm looking at the song "Salve Regina" (c. 1054) for the Christmas season. I've found a translation on the web,but I have some questions.

1. Does "et Jesum nobis post hoc exsilium ostende" mean show Jesus to us or show us to Jesus?

2. I have "in hac lacrimarum valle" and later "post hoc exsilium" Is is correct that hac changed to hoc?

3. Is "E-ia" just a filler, an exclamation of sorts?

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: mg
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM

1. Show Jesus to us.
2. Don't know.. in ? vale of tears
3. Don't think so but don't know for sure. mg


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Chris Green
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

2 is in the vale of tears. If I remember correctly the line full line translates as "To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears."

Actually digging deeper into recesses of memory this is (I think) the full English still used in the Catholic Church today:

            Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
            Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
            To thee do we cry, poor banished
            children of Eve, to thee do we send
            up our sighs, mourning and weeping
               in this valley, of tears.
            Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
            thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
            after this our exile show unto us the
            blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
            O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

            Pray for us, O holy Mother of God

            That we may be made worthy of the
            promises of Christ.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:18 PM

Although possibly relating to an 12th c. legend about Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, the anthem seems to have originated in the 16th c. A brief discussion here: Salve Regina
Perhaps written by Hermann Contractus (although ascribed to others of earlier date).

The anthem, with music, audio and English translation, here: Salve


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:29 PM

Lyrics and Latin-English with perhaps more accurate information here: Salve Regina

Looking through information, the anthem does seem to have been used from the 12th century onward, and my earlier remark is wrong; it should apply to a narrative.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:33 PM

http://home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/thesaurus/BVM/SalveRegina.html
Salve Regina


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Padre
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

Earliest manuscript of the Salve Regina dates from end of 11th c. It is sung after Low Mass and in the Breviary it is recited from Vespers of Trinity Sunday until Nones (9th hour) of Saturday before Advent Sunday.

Padre


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

Ummm... it is also usually recited as part of the Rosary...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Jack Hickman
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

That brings back a few memories. I haven't heard that prayer in a number of years, although I do attend mass regularly. Maybe it's gone out of fashion in Canada.

Jack Hickman


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: GUEST,murray on Saltspring
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:28 PM

Eia is just an interjection, like "Hoy!" - an exclamation of joy. Hoc and hac are the same, changing their form to refer to nouns of different genders and cases.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:43 PM

More typically "vale of tears" than "valley of tears", in my experience. Measn the same of course.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:37 PM

Thanks for all the information, everyone.


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Subject: Lyr Add: SALVE, REGINA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:24 AM

We used to sing this every night in the seminary, the last thing at the end of the day. We'd gather in the vestibule of chapel before evening prayer, and smoke cigarettes and sing Engelbert Humperdinck songs. Then we'd have prayer, and close by singing "Salve Regina" a cappella, with all the lights off except for the light on the statue of Mary. Then we'd have another cigarette break, and head back to the dorm.

I was at a synod of our Catholic diocese of Sacramento last month, and we closed one evening by singing "Salve Regina." It was lovely, but I found myself craving for a cigarette and having a compulsion to sing "Release Me (and Let Me Love Again)."

"Salve Regina" really was a wonderful way to close the seminary day. Too bad we broke the mystique somewhat with our cigarettes and corny songs - but it was fun.

-Joe Offer-
From Q's link:
Salve Regina

SALVE, Regina, mater misericordiae, vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve. Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae. Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes in hac lacrimarum valle. HAIL holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui, nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.

O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria. Amen.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us. And after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. Amen.

Click to play

V. Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genetrix.
R. Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi.
V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Oremus
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui gloriosae Virginis Matris Mariae corpus et animam, ut dignum Filii tui habitaculum effici mereretur, Spiritu Sancto cooperante, praeparasti: da, ut cuius commemoratione laetamur; eius pia intercessione, ab instantibus malis, et a morte perpetua liberemur. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.
Let us pray
Almighty, everlasting God, who by the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, didst prepare the body and soul of the glorious Virgin-Mother Mary to become a worthy dwelling for Thy Son; grant that we who rejoice in her commemoration may, by her loving intercession, be delivered from present evils and from the everlasting death. Amen.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: mg
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:44 AM

It is a beautiful prayer. Why did we quit saying it? I don't think I have ever heard it in Latin. Is Hail Holy Queen, which uses the Salve in refrain, originally French? I was told that French Canadian wood choppers used to sing it in the forests to keep each other in shouting distance. Can't you just picture it... mg


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:22 AM

Here's the tune for Salve Regina:

Click to play

The MIDI doesn't do it justice. When sung a cappella in the dark by 150 men, it's like a trip to heaven.

The words reflect a medieval theology that is no longer predominant in the Catholic Church. I suppose that life did seem like a "valley of tears" during the plagues and famines and all the hard times of the Middle Ages, but I'm glad that the Catholic Church has recently taken a more positive view of God's creation. Catholic have also begun to learn to pray to God, instead of getting everything forwarded through the Blessed Virgin Mary.




"Hail Holy Queen" is less sublime, but it does seem to come from the same root prayer. It's a rousing anthem, and I could almost see it sped up a bit and used as a woodcutting shanty or a football fight song for Notre Dame. I know of English and Latin versions, but not in any other languages. There must be a French version. Here's the tune for "Hail Holy Queen":

Click to play

(I've never heard it sung as sedate as the MIDI sounds)

1 Hail, holy Queen enthron'd above, O Maria!
Hail Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!
(Refrain)
Triumph all ye Cherubim,
Sing with us ye Seraphim,
Heav'n and earth resound the hymn;
Salve, Salve, Salve Regína!
2 Our life, our sweetness, here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
(Refrain)
Triumph all ye Cherubim,
Sing with us ye Seraphim,
Heav'n and earth resound the hymn;
Salve, Salve, Salve Regína!
3 To thee we cry, poor sons of Eve, O Maria!
To thee we sigh, we mourn, we grieve, O Maria!
(Refrain)
Triumph all ye Cherubim,
Sing with us ye Seraphim,
Heav'n and earth resound the hymn;
Salve, Salve, Salve Regína!
4 This earth is but a vale of tears, O Maria!
A place of banishment, of fears, O Maria!
(Refrain)
Triumph all ye Cherubim,
Sing with us ye Seraphim,
Heav'n and earth resound the hymn;
Salve, Salve, Salve Regína!
5 Turn then, most gracious Advocate, O Maria!
Tow'rds us thine eyes compassionate, O Maria!
(Refrain)
6 When this our exile is complete, O Maria!
Show us thy Son, our Jesus sweet, O Maria!
(Refrain)
7 O clement, gracious, Mother sweet, O Maria!
O Virgin Mary, we entreat, O Maria!
(Refrain)
(taken from http://romaaeterna.web.infoseek.co.jp/basil/sb153.html

Here's how Whoopi Goldberg did it in Sister Act:
    Hail holy queen enthroned above
    Oh Maria
    Hail mother of mercy and of love
    Oh Maria
    Triumph all ye cherubim
    Sing with us ye seraphim
    Heaven and earth resound the hymn
    Salve, salve, salve, Regina

    Hail holy queen enthroned above
    Oh Maria
    Hail mother of mercy and of love
    Oh Maria
    Triumph all ye cherubim
    Sing with us ye seraphim
    Heaven and earth resound the hymn
    Salve, salve, salve, Regina

    Our life, our sweetness here below
    Oh Maria
    Our hope in sorrow and in woe
    Oh, oh, oh Maria
    Triumph all ye cherubim (Cherubim)
    Sing with us ye seraphim (Seraphim)
    Heaven and earth resound the hymn
    Salve, salve, salve, Regina

    Alleluia
    Mater amaterintermerata
    Sanctus, sanctus, dominus
    Virgo respice mater ad spice
    Sanctus, sanctus, dominus
    Alleluia

    Our hope in sorrow and in woe
    Oh, oh, oh Maria
    Triumph all ye cherubim (Cherubim)
    Sing with us ye seraphim (Seraphim)
    Heaven and earth resound the hymn
    Salve, salve, salve, Regina
    Salve Regina (wa, oh, oh)
    Salve Regina
source: http://www.lyrics.ly/lyrics.php/Whoopi+Goldberg/Lyrics/Hail+Holy+Queen


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: GUEST,dunlace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

Here's the whole chant in Latin and English plus the neumes and sound files:
http://www.op.org/domcentral/life/salve.htm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: mg
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM

No plagues these days? It is still a vale of tears here. mg


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:35 PM

Re the website given by guest Dunlace, the wav file can be downloaded.
A link to this site was given by Q near the top of this thread.
Here is the link again to the website given by Dunlace: Salve Regina

Joe, thanks for posting all the lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

It's still a vale of tears for many people much of the time, and for all people some of the time.

"Why did we quit saying it?" Local fashion in some parts of the world, I suppose. Not in others.

Incidentally, it seems pretty clear to me that Tolkien, who was of course a Catholic, was, consciously or unconsciously, echoing the Salve Regina when, in The Lord of the Rings, he wrote:

O Queen beyond the Western Seas!
O Light to us that wander here
Amid the world of woven trees!
A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
Silivren penna miriel
O menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-diriel
A galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
Nef aear, sí nef aearon!

We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees
The starlight on the Western Seas.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: GUEST,robert
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:35 AM

pls. end us copy of chords for salve regina, pls. thanks


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:54 AM

You may not realize this, Robert, but your request is rather hard to answer. There are many versions of Salve Regina, and most of them are irregular in rhythm or move stepwise a lot and don't lend themselves to chords. This happens a lot with ancient music.

But if the version you want is this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHASQg8fR0s

then I may be able to work out the chords. I'm not sure.

Get back to us about which version you are interested in.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 04:32 AM

The usual tune for "Salve Regina" is this one (click). It's Gregorian Chant, usually sung a cappella or with sparse accompaniment. I've never thought of chords for a Gregorian Chant piece. It would be interesting to see if it would work - a chord or an arpeggio on the downbeat might work OK - the words have accent marks on the downbeats in chant notation. Do remember that chant does not have a regular meter.
This (click) is a good example of organ accompaniment for Gregorian Chant - but a different song. I don't know that I've ever heard "Salve Regina" with accompaniment. It's traditionally sung a cappella at the end of the day.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

chords with Gregorian chant? Yes, it can be done, but not with a regular strum or picking pattern. I play the following chants:

the old Salve Regina,
Of the Father's Love Begotten
On that Pascal Evening See Him (that chant they do at Eastertime)
O Come O Come Emmanuel (is it chant?)

on my fretted dulcimer. I pay no attention to meter. When a long note comes and a chord would sound good, I just play one.   

But when many people think of Salve Regina, they think of the song from Sister Act. It is clearly a more modern composition. That is the song I asked Robert about. Let's see if Robert comes back.

It's interesting to search for Salve Regina on YouTube and see how many forms of it there are.

I don't believe that the old Salve Regina (S.R., mater misericordie..) was used in church in ancient times. I believe it was a pop tune, albeit a reverant one, to be sung in castle or hovel. Later it became acceptable for a church ceremony.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Salve Regina questions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

I posted the official "Salve Regina" above (click) Here's the information on this song from the Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, edited by Fr. Richard McBrien of Notre Dame:
    Salve Regina (Latin, "Hail Holy Queen), opening Latin words of an antiphon in honor of the Virgin Mary. The text was probably composed by Herman of Richenau (died 1054). It was sung or recited after various hours in the Divine Office. During the Middle Ages, laity joined with monks and friars in singing the Salve, Regina at the end of the day. From the fourteenth century it was usually sung after Compline in the Roman rite. Pius V directed that it also follow other hours of the Office. Leo XIII assigned it as a prayer to follow low Masses, a practice discontinued in 1964.
There are other chant tunes for Salve Regina, but the one most commonly sung is this one, which we sang every night in the seminary, at the end of night prayers. No, I don't believe it was a pop tune. It's typical Gregorian Chant.

Now, "Hail Holy Queen" is an English version of this same prayer. You'll find sheet music in this PDF file, but note that verses 2 and 3 are modern. The first verse was translated from the 1884 Roman Hymnal, set to the tune, Salve Regina Coelitum. Salve Regina Coelitum came from Choralmelodien zum Heiligen Gesänge, 1808. So, the tune for "Hail Holy Queen" is apparently of early 19th-century German origin - and I wouldn't be surprised if this one had pop origins. You'll find the "Goldberg variation" of this song in this YouTube video.

-Joe-


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