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Guitar sale/purchase predicament

freightdawg 21 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM
Peace 21 Nov 04 - 10:47 PM
Peace 21 Nov 04 - 10:49 PM
GUEST,Les B 22 Nov 04 - 01:03 PM
Spot 22 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM
freightdawg 22 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM
Once Famous 22 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM
UB Ed 22 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Biskit~ just passin' through~ 22 Nov 04 - 11:10 PM
Spot 23 Nov 04 - 08:01 AM
Spot 23 Nov 04 - 08:04 AM
Once Famous 23 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM
Spot 23 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM
Once Famous 23 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM
Spot 23 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM
Once Famous 23 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM
PoppaGator 23 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Diogenes 23 Nov 04 - 01:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM
Once Famous 23 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM
Bert 23 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM
PoppaGator 23 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM
Once Famous 23 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Nov 04 - 06:07 PM
Spot 23 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM
Bert 23 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM
PoppaGator 23 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM
Spot 23 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 04 - 06:58 PM
Terry Allan Hall 23 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM
DonMeixner 23 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM
freightdawg 23 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM
DonMeixner 23 Nov 04 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,Diogenes 23 Nov 04 - 09:00 PM
Once Famous 23 Nov 04 - 09:13 PM
Justa Picker 23 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM
freightdawg 23 Nov 04 - 11:02 PM
UB Ed 24 Nov 04 - 12:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 04 - 09:16 AM
Once Famous 24 Nov 04 - 09:58 AM
Davetnova 24 Nov 04 - 10:14 AM
Pete Jennings 24 Nov 04 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Joe 24 Nov 04 - 10:22 AM
Once Famous 24 Nov 04 - 10:23 AM
Davetnova 24 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM
Once Famous 24 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM
Davetnova 24 Nov 04 - 02:12 PM
Don Firth 24 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM
Spot 24 Nov 04 - 03:02 PM
Davetnova 24 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM
Don Firth 24 Nov 04 - 03:17 PM
UB Ed 24 Nov 04 - 03:21 PM
Spot 24 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM
DonMeixner 24 Nov 04 - 03:53 PM
Bert 24 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM
freightdawg 24 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 04 - 06:32 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM
Once Famous 25 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM
Spot 26 Nov 04 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Terry K 26 Nov 04 - 03:49 AM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland 26 Nov 04 - 11:24 AM
Pete Jennings 26 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland 26 Nov 04 - 12:28 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 03:08 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Nov 04 - 04:52 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Nov 04 - 07:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,Songster Bob 26 Nov 04 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Auggie (still cookieless) 27 Nov 04 - 02:24 AM
ThreeSheds 27 Nov 04 - 04:22 AM
PoppaGator 27 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM
Once Famous 27 Nov 04 - 11:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 12:25 PM
freightdawg 27 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Sam Hall 27 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM
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McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM
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Big Al Whittle 27 Nov 04 - 05:21 PM
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punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 10:58 PM
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dianavan 28 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Nov 04 - 06:45 AM
Spot 28 Nov 04 - 07:13 AM
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Subject: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM

Okay, I hope this is not too complicated of a story but here goes...

My little family of guitars is almost complete. One more out of the shop and I will have three (almost) identical pieces: a 6 string, a 12 string and a classical. My problem is I have another 6 string that no longer "fits". It is a really nice guitar, a Yamaha LL 11. It has a sitka spruce top, mahogany back and sides (my luthier says it is mahogany plywood) with a rosewood neck and fretboard. It is in beautiful shape. I sent a description to Elderly, and the owner sent back an estimate of $450 - 500 (usd) as its value.

I am thinking of perhaps down the road sometime adding another 6 string to my "family", but I would like it to be a high end Martin, Collings, Larrivee or some such (or maybe have another custom made). The problem is that the guitar would be cheaper than the divorce, as the Mrs. Freightdawg has been most gracious and accomodating with my Guitar Acquisition Syndrome to this point, but I don't know how far I can push it. So I am asking for my esteemed Mudcat friends for some advice.

I would like the guitar to go to a good home - one where it would be treated right and maybe even get out of the house now and then. I've considered placing it on the Mudcat auction, but I need to get a good price out of it, and I don't want to appear greedy. That way the Mudcat would get a pretty good percentage, too. Or, I could sell it through consignment at Elderly, or I could sell it on consignment here where I live (a risky shot, at best.) Or I could keep it as an eventual trade-in against the high-end guitar. (It would have about a $350 trade-in value).

Those of you who know guitars - is $500 a good price for a 6 year old guitar Yamaha? (I paid $700 for it new). It would come with a TKL hard shell case and a capo.

Thanks fer helping out,

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:47 PM

www.piens.be/list/Pages/Yamaha%20LL-11.htm - 6k

or Google

Yamaha LL-11

They list $690 American. But there is a price converter on that page (first one at the top) and it will convert to all kinds of money.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:49 PM

If the condition is close to mint, $500 sounds fair, BTW. Especially with the hardshell case. You will get a buyer fast, IMO.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:03 PM

$500 sounds like a fair price if it's in decent shape.

Let me give you a slight warning about consigning. Recently I took three "junker" instruments to a guy who, for a percentage, would do all the work of selling them on E-bay: write-up, photos, shipping, dealing with Pay Pal, etc.

He sold an autoharp and a six-string banjo in the first week, but the relatively new Johnson 12-string, with an older hard shell case, just wouldn't sell.

We subsequently tried two more auctions - with no luck, so I went and retrieved it from him.   I didn't bother to look at the instrument for a couple of days, and and then I discovered the bridge was peeling off, probably because he had stored it for a couple of months without a humidifier!   I took it to a friend at a repair shop and he discovere that not only was the bridge peeling, the braces inside were warped also. Ultimately I kept the old case and donated a $120 12-string for parts to the shop.

If you consign - make sure they know how to take care of an instrument. This guy didn't, not his fault really, so I ended up losing about $25 all told !!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

Hello all...
               FD..if your LL is anything like as good as mine(same age etc) I'd be keeping it!! Personally, I think you'd go a long way to get better value for money! I have a Lowden 032 as well, which is fabulous, 4 times the price, but no way 4 times better!! My feeling is that just because a guitar is megabucks doesnt mean to say its mega anything else...!! IMO, that is...
   
               Regards to all.....Spot


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM

Thanks to all for the info - Brucie I'll check out that website when I get more than 5 minutes in a row to do something with.

Spot - I agree it is a great guitar. That's part of my hesitation in getting rid of it. I've considered making some adjustments to it (electronics, etc,) but can't sell myself on that idea either. Thanks for letting me know you have one, and how much you like it.

Les, thanks for the heads up. The folks I've considered consigning to all have nice shops to display their guitars, or in Elderly's case I am sure they know how to take care of a guitar. My fear in dealing with a distant location is the shipping and handling. I know all too well what can happen to something as large as a guitar in shipping transit.

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

Freightdawg

The problem is that one can buy a halfway decent low end Martin new for the same price.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: UB Ed
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM

Have you considered the concept of the "travel guitar"? One that is fun to play (action/tone) yet will not send you to a padded room if it is damaged by an airline, sat in the beach sand or splashed by the canoe paddle?

Ms. Dawg will certainly understand the economic utility of having such an instrument as well as the higher end six when you get it. Is it space, money or both? You just may have to store the Yamaha under the bed...and $500 ain't a lot if you are truly considering a "high end six".

Ed


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Biskit~ just passin' through~
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:10 PM

If it's a really sweet guitar, and old yammerhammers certainly can be, I'd keep it,..but then again I've kept every guitar I've ever had, it'd be like selling my cat,..just couldn't live with m'self afterwards.
happy trails,
~Biskit~


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:01 AM

MG..
    Pray who would want a "half way decent" Martin, new or otherwise? At their prices every damn one should be "full-on" bloody excellent. That has not been my personal experience of any Martins over 40 yrs of playing....I dont like em....!!( prefer me LL anyday!!)

                   Regards to all.....Spot


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:04 AM

Fdawg...stick a Fishman matrix thingy in it...stunning guitar, good pick-up...what more does one want!!!

                  Regards to all, again....Spot


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM

Spot

Martins are the choice obviously of most professional players in folk and bluegrass. Gibsons tend to be the pro choice of many doing country, though you will see Martins there, also.

Martin's astute marketing and brand name recognition and reputation for quality have opened up models as low as the $400-500 range.

I have also been playing for 40+ years, 42 to be exact, currently own five high quality acoustic guitars all being vintage in nature and am a student of the vintage guitar market, as well as a pro player both solo and in groups. My brother, is a serious guitar collector, with somewhere between 35-40 instruments in his collection. I have no financial interest in Martin whatsoever, but can assure you that Martins are highly renowned and are blowing their competition out of the water in the new mid price range market as well as holding their own against higher end brands, Collings, Huff and Dalton, and Santa Cruz notwithstanding.

I have found that many players who do not like Martins are people who convince themselves of that as they believe that they cannot afford a model in the Standard Series (18,28,35,4X, CEO, etc.) I would be hard pressed to know what an "LL" is that you were referring to and in my travels and communications with other serious collectors and dealers, as well as many musicians, can quite confidently say that I never heard of them. This is not to say that "LL" might be some small, fine quality custom branded instrument. There are many in that category.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

MG...If you'd have read the original reason for this thread, you'd have at least a rough idea of what an LL is...you obviously havent bothered....

"Martins are the choice obviously of most professional players in folk and bluegrass" you say....
    I say...so bloody what???

    You can't even get "HUSS and DALTON" right.....I think its you that does the "HUFFIN!!"

    That lot apart and I dont give a toss what anybody says..the "LL" is a super guitar , brilliant VFM and a damned handsome beast to boot...I honestly wouldnt swap it for any Martin...Incidentally,I gig with a Collings mando and a Lowden guitar so I know what I'm about with expensive stuff and I think your last paragraph convinces me you are so far up your own arse its untrue!!!!

                Happy Christmas, though, nevertheless!!

                        Regards to all.....Spot


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

You are a moron, spot, and your LL is nothing more than an English piece of balsa wood.

give me a call when you want to learn something you inflammatory amateur.

You are the one who came on initially as a ranting limey idiot after I posted in the spirit of trying to be helpful.

Stick your arse up your ass.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

MG... Spot the moron with the inflamed arse here again!! Thanks for your comments, they really made me smile!! "LL"'s English??? May I respectfully suggest you do a bit of homework. Balsa?? Well, not quite though its been suggested the sides may be mahog ply.Personally I think mines IR.with mahog neck...GraphTech pins and an ebony Pearse armrest(which is lovely!)Hand made English saddle leather strap and Rhortechs on it....Get the picture?

          Regards to all...The Ranting Limey Idiot struggling to    stick his arse up his own arse which is already full of Martins!!!!

    Freightdawg...I hope you reading this...Comments please?

                           :-)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

Freightdawg

Never trust a guy who thinks something called an LL is better than a Martin.

Doesn't LL stand for "lousy loser"?

Spot, your head will still fit anyway. While you are up your own ass with those Martins, why don't you pull out a few sideways and realize that those finely made American instruments can be restored and get you some good money. Please hose them off first, though.

Phew!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Have we ever established, for those of us not in the know, just exactly what an "LL" is? Are the "L"'s initials we're excepted to recognize? Is it a model designation for some well-known brand?

Please pardon my ignorance. I haven't shopped for guitars since I got my D-18 (that's a Martin) in 1969. For years, I've been completely unaware of the various newer premium brands that have emerged. Since I started checking into Mudcat a couple of years ago, I've come to realize that quite a few brand names which had meant nothing to me are apparently very excellent (and expensive!) guitars.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:14 PM

"Martins are the choice obviously of most professional players in folk and bluegrass. Gibsons tend to be the pro choice of many doing country, though you will see Martins there, also."

Okay, then how come you see so many Taylors on Austin City Limits and the Nashville channel? Most of the folksingers I've seen who play Martins play OLDER Martins. Don't like the new ones very much. Not as good. Grossly overpriced.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

freightdawg said in his first post it was a Yamaha LL11, and right after that brucie gave a link to a page with a picture and details..

It's not a bad idea actually to read a thread before whinging   about not having been given the information that in fact has been given.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM

How about when the information is vague and so poorly documented as was the case here?

Not all of us can be such experts on cheap Jap guitars, you know.

Guest, diogenes., what Nashville channel? do you mean CMT or GAC? I don't believe but just a few hat acts play Taylors.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM

Keep the Yamaha.

Martins always remind me of Peter's Placebo.

"An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance"


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM

My bad, Kevin. I DID read the initial post a couple of days ago when it first appeared (as well as, bit by bit, the entire thread), but I failed to remember all the pertinent details. I remembered the instrument in question was a Yamaha, but forgot that the model-number was "LL."

I think I can blame our favorite scapegoat Martin for my misunderstanding. ;^)

I may not know much, but I *do* know that Yamahas are Japanese, so when MG used the unfortunate phrase "your LL is nothing more than an English piece of balsa wood," I didn't realize he was referring to the Yamaha. Looking back, there were a couple of reactions pointing out than an LL ain't English, but I missed the point.

In freightdawg's defense, by the way, the info originally provided was perfectly clear to me. My forgetting that one little detail was entirely my own fault.

I understand that lots of folks agree that current Martins aren't nearly as consisently high-quality as in the past, and I know that Yamahas are pretty decent guitars, but it is dismaying to read that *anyone* would consider a used Yamaha to be a better buy than a similarly-priced new Martin. Actually, I'm a bit shocked to learn that a new Martin of any kind would be available at the same price as a used Yamaha.

Sheesh! The world sure changed a lot when I wasn't looking!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

Yes, p-gator, Martins are firmly entrenched in the mid-range market know kicking the market share out of Yamaha and Epiphone in the acoustic market. Their D-1 model I believe is $400 with an x-braced spruce top and play quite well. No they are not a D28 or as nice as yours or mine D-18, but they are a lot closer than some Yamaha wannabee.

I also feel that this bull-crap about Martins not being as good as they once were is pure urban legend. What's true is that finer Martins in the Standard Series are not as CHEAP as they used to be and that is the crux of it. The whiners who complain about Martin who can't afford them downplay them for that reason.

I do know many people playing new HD-28s and D18GE models and have tried them myself. They are guitars of extreme quality and distinction and Martin is not going to ruin a 170 year old reputation that easily.

Bert, in that case, I am sure a Stella suits you just fine.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:07 PM

Before you believe a word Gibson says about the comparison of Yamahas and Martins in the same price bracket, play both. I have an OM1 which I like, but I have played some very nice Yamahas indeed. Regrettably, while his ignorance is echoed elsewhere, the Martin will probably prove the better investment, but that is not the smae thing as it being the beter guitar. I have also played Martins made over the last 30 years that were pretty crap.

And when the rednecks send an aircraft carrier I will be observing Churchill's behest.

If you really want to understand why so many people the world over detest America and Americans, just listen to Gibson a little longer.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

Thanks chaps....I wouldnt actually "listen"! to Mr Gibsin Marton at all...Whats this Urban Legend stuff???? I've played Martins and dont like em, they dont come up to snuff for me. End of story!! I think Monsieur Martson is money and prestige driven. That counts for zilch in my book!!
       Richard Bridge..I echo your sentiments re America

Once upon a lot of years ago I may have been swayed by the errmmm.."romance" of owning a Martin, but not now I'm older and wiser and more moronic and amateur and Limey (whatever that means!!)Oh yeah..and a Lousy Loser who is still struggling to get his head out of his arseful of, now literally, crappy Martins while wondering how to hose em off and flog em(in your own words, Mr Gibton!!)If they were as good as you say, surely I'd keep em!!
             Regards to all as ever...Spot   :-)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

I could probably manage quite well with a Stella. But then, I can sing.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

Stellas were good enough for the likes of Skip James and many others. The field engineers who traveled the Mississippi Delta looking for blues artists to record supposedly carried Stellas with them -- they would usually prove to be better guitars than whatever the singers owned themselves.

Of course, now, those were *vintage* Stellas...

(I need a translation/explication of the aircraft-carrier/Churchill bit.)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

Hey Bert
                      Sing me to sleep....I like the "Peters Placebo" stuff. Too many folk have that as their ..errm..."Mission Statement!!!"

                   Goodnight all...(inc MB)
                            Spot the Limey


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:58 PM

Skimming through this thread I'm reminded of a man who says "Good morning" and gets the reply "What do you mean telling me it's a Good Morning? Anyway, whats it got to you what kind of morning it is, you snotty nosed bastard!"

Takes all sorts...


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

Gee, MG...you're certainly full of yourself...among other noxious substances!

BTW, these "hat acts" your refer to mostly play Takamines!

Many, many folkies and younger bluegrassers use guitars other than Martins...and quite a few do, indeed, play Taylors.

And, finally, the LL-series Yamahas are excellent instruments that rival pretty much ANY brand for quality of tone and comfortableness of neck.

Martins DO make better investments, which is why my D-28 stays in it's case, in the closet...My Guilds and Taylors (and occ. Gibsons) go to my gigs and are the ones I prefer to play!

Happy Turkey Day!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

He Dawg,

I'd stick with the Yamaha. It doesn't owe you anything. I have one I'll never part with.   32 years and going strong.

Don


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM

Ahem, (putting on raincoat to enter the mudslinging)

I appreciate all the comments, but especially those that dealt with my original question. Spot, you are right and I do very much thank you, also Brucie for posting the url, and to McGrath for the blicky. Yep, that's the guitar.

When I bought the guitar I knew absolutely NOTHING about guitars. I went into a music store that had dozens of acoustics and showed da man how many greenbacks I had. He sat down and said "This is a good one" and played a little ditty on a guitar. He did that with about three of them and then played the Yamaha. I said "That's it!" I have no idea what models he played before it or after it, I just know that my ear picked up a noticable difference between this one and the others. It has a gorgeous, mellow tone and is a very nice piece, indeed. I was told at the time it was hand made at Yamaha (a claim I now believe was more salesmanship than fact. I have another brochure somewhere that says it was "partially" handcrafted, whatever the heck that means). The really high end LL series are individually handmade but not the "11".

However, since that time I have worked with a local luthier who has custom made me my little guitar "family." I showed him the Yamaha and he pointed out the fact it was Mahogany plywood. (You can see the grain through the soundhole does not match the grain on the back). However, that in no way means it is cheap. There is a distinct difference between inexpensive and cheap. A guitar may be both, but just because it is inexpensive doesn't mean it is cheap. He pointed out that many nice plywoods have as rich a tone and last as long or longer than single pieces. The difference is when you move up into the pieces that cost many times the cost of this Yamaha the construction and tone of the guitar should be noticably different. That is true of my custom-mades. I am NOT dissing the Yamaha. It is a sweet guitar. But, a sows ear is a sows ear and a silk purse it will never be.

And so my original post pertains to this yin-yang of guitar ownership. Do I keep a nice low-to-medium value guitar, sell it outright, or keep it in view of maybe one day trading it in on a medium-to-high or high end guitar? Or as was suggested above, spruce it up a little?

And I have genuinely, genuinely enjoyed the responses. My thanks especially to McGrath and Richard and Bert and Terry. Not knowing much about the Yamaha line I really did not know what I had. Your input is invaluable.

(shucking raincoat and fluffing my fur)

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:27 PM

Hi again FD,

I really think you would do well to keep the Yamaha. If for no other reason than to have a High End Beater to take to picnics and the like. If I read this correctly it is your first guitar. First guitars, especially good ones, have a fond spot in most hearts and are never truly replaced.

Also, SAGAS, Serious Accoustic Guitar Acquisition Syndrome is not fatal and it is usually more tolerated within the than other types of collection syndromes. Such as toe nail collections or weaving belly button lint into a sweater.

And it is some cheaper than buying Faberge Eggs.

Don


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:00 PM

"They are guitars of extreme quality and distinction and Martin is not going to ruin a 170 year old reputation that easily."

The Packard was one of the world's best automobiles, right up there with the Rolls-Royce. They tried to capture some of the cheaper car market and went belly-up in the '50s. Same thing happend to Studebaker in the '60s. It happens.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:13 PM

I don't think Richard Bridge knows anything much about guitars, let alone quality American ones. Kind of funny how some people in Europe take any opportunity that they can to bash Americans and their products. The on-going jealousy of all things American always seems to come out and when it does, it is my pleasure to tell the non-Americans right to their face that we just KNOW our products, especially great American tradition products such as Martin guitars are known and respected the world over.

Many non-Americans really can't deal with the superior American product so they bash the product and the people. Oh, well. It goes with their second rate complex I am afraid.

I can tell you this much. Bluegrass musicians, who are considered by many to be the most accomplished acoustic musicians around, would not be caught dead with a Taylor, let alone inferior Japanese products such as Yamaha or Takemine. The hat acts who play these sushi boards are not accomplished musicians and use them as props. The fine country players, such as Emmylou Harris play Gibson, which is based in Nashville.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Justa Picker
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM

What Don said, 3 posts before this one.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:02 PM

So far I have resisted, but grrrrrrrr,

Martin, every word you have said about cheap guitars can be said about Martins. Right now if you went into the average music store and asked to look at the low end Martins the product you would get would not be worth the case it was shipped in. They are awful. I am not saying that as a professional or an expert. They are just cheap, assembly line fabrications that are good starters and that's about it.

Now, when you move up into the medium to high end Martins, I am sure every word you are saying is true. But the same is true of the Yamaha line. The high end Yamahas are hand made and the quality is superb. Same with the Takamines. My mid-line LL11 is a good guitar, it is probably an assembly line model, but it has good tone and is very playable. With the adjustable neck I can keep the action right where I want it. Don't be trashing something just because it has a Japanese name. If I am not mistaken, either Yamaha or Takamine or both are produced here in the U S of A with good ol' boys doing all the sawing and hammering and gluing.

I'm as red-blooded an American as any blue-tick houn' dawg there is. But quality does not come with a little American flag. Quality exists where there is genuine love for and pride in creating a product. I would love to have a high end Martin. But I would just as soon have a Larrivee (Canadian) or other well known guitar with a solid pedigree.

grrrrrrrr over.

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: UB Ed
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:17 AM

Hello?

Have you considered the concept of the "travel guitar"? One that is fun to play (action/tone) yet will not send you to a padded room if it is damaged by an airline, sat in the beach sand or splashed by the canoe paddle?

Ms. Dawg will certainly understand the economic utility of having such an instrument as well as the higher end six when you get it. Is it space, money or both? You just may have to store the Yamaha under the bed...and $500 ain't a lot if you are truly considering a "high end six".

Mixner's right.

Ed


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:16 AM

"I Pledge Allegiance to the guitar of the United States of America..."


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:58 AM

...........and to the quality of which it stands.

Ah so, you want California maki selved on your Yamaha, suh?


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:14 AM

Jeez, I've lurked around this site a lot. I post some but I love to learn. BUT I have never since I started came across anyone like Martine Gobshite. LISTEN UP MARTINE evryone whose opinion differs from yours is not automatically bashing America. Yes Martins are made in America they are not America. McDonalds are an American company I wouldn' put one near my mouth. I have liked nearly every American I have met. America seems a fine country whose government like many other government leads it inti strange places. This is not American bashing. And before you ask I own a Martin.
Personally I am ashamed that someone with a mind, mouth and personality likes yours has Scottish blood in him. Perhaps someone should remove it through your nose.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:17 AM

The "quality" argument cannot have credence at maunfacturer or even model level. It is only valid when considering indivigual guitars, irrespective of make and model. Some Martin guitars do not live up to the name and, on the other hand, some Yamaha guitars are superb.

I had a Yamaha LL-11E which was wonderful. Then, after owning a poor Martin 000-18 for 18 years I found a Martin HJ-28 which is a real humdinger. The Yamaha went in part-exchange and the Taylor, which I had previously bought in NYC, stayed in its case until I sold it privately last year.

I've played loads of Martins since - and other high-end guitars such as Bourgois, Froggy Bottom, etc, etc, - and some of them were okay, some good and some not so good. The only one I bought is a Martin OM-35 which is the best of them all.

I never once played a really good Gibson, but then I'm in the UK and I'm not convinced they export the best of them.

Howver, if I only had $500 to spend, I'd buy the LL any time. Horses for courses, or rather budgets.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:22 AM

Before I knew Jack-shit about acoustic guitars (18 years ago) I went looking for the best brand you could buy. Of course I was told "Martin" was the way to go. With "brass in pocket" (budget was not a problem - I was prepared to go crazy for once in my life) I headed for the Aladdin's Cave of all Guitar stores. I played 'em all that day.

Being exposed to so many brands and having a bloody good ear is a recipe for disaster - I failed miserably in my mission. I so wanted to be able to say "I'm now the owner of a MARTIN GUITAR!" to all my fellow pickers but, alas, I left the store with the proprietor's words ringing in my ear "You'll not get a decent trade-in price on that, but you would if you bought a Martin"

Sod the trade-in price; I got superior sound, superior construction (hand-made rather than "hand-made") superior quality woods, and still had some "brass in pocket" left over to remind me to this day how stupid I was.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:23 AM

davetnova

I assure you that I have absolutely no Scottish blood in me so you can sleep tonight if you don't explode first into a supernova from all of your frustrations.

I am fond of using Scotch tape though. It's pretty good for holding the binding together on this Yamaha classical guitar I own.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM

My apologies to my fellow Scots. I had forgotten that Mr. America only hides behind the good Scottish name of Gibson. (and the German one of Martin) Why don't you get yourself a REAL AMERICAN name.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM

I did, moron

Martin and Gibson guitars are the finest in American guitars. That's where my Mudcat name comes from. Most everyone here knows that.

Otherwise, I wouldn't want to be associated with that leading anti-semite Scot Mel Gibson.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:12 PM

You are a very sick person, which is a shame because sometimes you sound OK.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

I have owned three Martins. The first was a steel-string, a 00-18, bought in 1953. I switched to classic guitar in 1954 and bought a 00-28-G, the top of the Martin nylon-string classic line. It was an excellent classic. A couple of years later, I bought a 00-18-G classic (mahogany back and sides rather than Brazilian rosewood, considerably less expensive than the 00-28-G) to pack around to parties and such. All three of these guitars were very fine instruments.

I have long since moved on to even better guitars. Two of the guitars I now own were made outside of the United States. One is a flamenco guitar made in Madrid by Arcangel Fernandez, and the other is a Japanese-made classic that I got for around $350.00 in 1977. It was hand-made by a Japanese luthier who apprenticed under Arcangel Fernandez, imported by José Oribé, and sold under his label. It looks exactly like the concert José Ramirez that Segovia played and when I played a recital for the Seattle Classic Guitar Society using this guitar, partly because of its appearance and partly because of its full, rich sound, these knowledgeable folk assumed that it was a Ramirez. Remarkable when you consider that I got it for about 1/20th of what a Ramirez would have cost me.

Merely because I'm oriented toward classic guitars doesn't mean I don't know anything about steel-string guitars. Remember, when someone is playing a steel-string guitar, I'm in front of it, where I can hear what it really sounds like. Most Martin guitars are still quite good. Some are exceptionally good. But their overall quality is not as good as it was thirty or forty years ago. Two instruments of the same model can vary widely, and this didn't use to be the case.

American luthiers turn out some crap. American luthiers also turn out some of the finest instruments in the world. Japanese luthiers turn out some crap. Japanese luthiers also turn out some of the finest instruments in the world. I've heard steel-string Yamahas and Takamines that can hold their own with any guitars around. And like GUEST, Diogenes, I see as many Taylors on Austin City Limits as Martins and Gibsons combined. Also, I see a lot of guitars that I can't identify, but I can see that they're neither Martins nor Gibsons.

Sorry Marty. Them's the facts. And it has nothing to do with being a "GOOD AMERICAN." (Whatever the hell that is!!)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:02 PM

Hello everybody..
    Well this ones still ragin' innit??   Maybe Mr Gobson Bitmap now realises that the tide of opinion is flowing against his blinkered thoughts....What you say to that Martin?

                  Regards to all....Spot


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Davetnova
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

Don - if you get a guitar made by an Archangel I would expect it to sound heavenly. But as you say there are many beautiful instruments. I think it's a case of America being so big that there are so many good instruments made there that there is no incentive for people to look outside that continent. There are some amazing instruments being made in Europe and there are many in the far east working their hearts out producing beautiful instruments getting no recognition because they are "Pacific Rim". Racist? I would say so. America's Pacific Rim from here.
No country has a monopoly on good instuments and certainly no one maker has.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:17 PM

True indeed.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: UB Ed
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:21 PM

So I think he should keep the guitar, right?

Ed


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM

Davetnova...

          Glad you havent exploded into a supernova yet!! You talk a lot of sense..You too, Don Firth...
          (By the way..I've a number of crap covered Martins for sale!!)   

          Regards to all....Spot the Slimey Limey Moron   :-)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: DonMeixner
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:53 PM

Ed.

Yup, without a doubt he should keep the guitar.

Don


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Bert
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM

My old knockabout Yamaha raised a whole village of teenagers. I'd leave it out of it's case on the sofa all the time and No. 1 son and his friends a would all get to use it.

It still sounds OK to this day. And it sounds REAL GOOD when an accomplished players get theirs hands on it.

Somewhat like that old story of the photographer and writer. The writer is admiring some of the photographer's pictures and comments "You must have a good camera". The photographer says "I've just read your latest book - you must have a good typewriter".


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

Okay, okay...

The kind and gentle spirits of the Mudcat have spoken, and the most humble 'Dawg must not only listen to, but also accept the wisdom of the sages...

I am going to keep the guitar. At least for the forseeable future. I do not think the Dr. has cured me of my raging case of GAS (as opposed to gas, the tummy problem) and so I, being the feeble creature that I am, will probably end up buying another mid-high guitar to compare with my lesser-known but drop-dead-beautiful-and-incredibly-super-wonderful-sounding customs. However, as a poster long since has so aptly stated, the "Yammerhammer" (I love that nickname) has a special place in me heart and me soul.

Thanks for the wonderful story, Don Firth. Everyone's advice has been so appreciated. It is really nice to know the Yamaha line has its defenders, and even the LL line. I had no idea how many were made, their impact, etc. Reading brochures from the company is a good place to start, but they are usually about 75% propaganda. The trick is figuring out which 25% is true, and that is where you need to hear from folks who have owned or currently own one.

Thanks to all, and maybe we can put this thread to bed. I am most indebted to all who offered their $.02 worth. It has been fascinating "listening" you all your advice.

call me the proud owner of a "yammerhammer" LL11,

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:32 PM

Saved!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

Well, Gibson, the most expensive guitar I played was a Martin on sale in Hanks in Denmark Street for GBP 15,000. I didn't like it.

I've played some Martins I did like, I have not yet found a Breedlove I did like, seen a couple of Collings and Froggy Bottoms and Bourgeois I somewhat liked. I quite like many Gibsons, but none really go that extra mile. You need ears. So far I have a definite impression where yours are. I listen a lot better than I play!

Best acoustic guitar I ever played - William Pint's Goodall. I believe it was very costly.

Second best (to my amazement) a Fender custom shop one.

Third was the only Lowden I ever really liked, but that one was a belter.

Second rate? My stepdaughter (who runs a lot of shit for Intel) still winds up people like you up by calling you the colonies. When you get a history, get a life. Oh, and post your real name, as I do.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM

just gone round the house & done a quick head count..

approx 41 guitars of various styles, colours, shapes and sizes..
.. and another 5 or 6 'projects' awaiting completion.


only 1 is a traditional orthodox acoustic..[made in canada]

7 are made in england..

the rest made in various far eastern countries..

except only one made in america.. a jerry jones [baby] sitar..

of course.. I could have spent the total cost instead
on a mere 2 or 3 high end prestige US brand name guitars..

but it would not have been anywhere near as as much fun
as owning & playing more than 41..

lets not forget how back in the early 80's
the japs seriously blew away forever
the dominant myth/reality of american guitar brand-name superiority..

and now a 1/4 of a century later even chinese factory's
are churning out low price high quality fender and gibson beaters
for beginners and semi-pro markets...
[.. and increasingly more open minded peer-pressure resistant pro-players ??? ]

in terms of manufacturing quality..
even my recently produced 'cheap shit' guitars are most likely better made and more easily playable
than the guitars used to record so many
of my favourite old folk coutry blues and rock'n'roll records..

and even if i ever was in a situation where i'd need to perform
with 1 single acoustic radiating sublime quality and rich full tone
comparable to a classical grand piano..

i'd probably negotiate an expense account to hire one in for a few days..

ps.. an american name i revere for its uniquely influential historical, and social significance..
is Danelectro/Silvertone..

cheap as chipboard.. and sound ****ing awesome..

pps.. still looking forward to the day i can find
a top yamaha acoustic well underpriced in a local charity shop..


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM

Richard Bridge, I don't need to post my real name as you do because I am not a full of crap (and himself) lawyer on the usual ego trip.

You said it all when you said " I listen better than I play." Most lawyers like you only listen to themselves which really means your playing is nothing to write home about.

Going to my bi-weekly bluegrass jam tomoorow night, featuring some of the best players in the Chicago to Mil;waukee area. Virtually all of them have Martins ranging from new to 40 years old. We'll all get a good laugh out of the sushi board Yamaha joke I made.

Spot, what's that brown spot?


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:16 AM

So, Mr Gibson, that remark about sushi was a JOKE? Sounds pretty schoolboy to me. I'm afraid your sort of humour's beyond me. Please explain the "brown spot" thing. Another, errrmm..joke? How come Sean Watkins plays a Bourgeois? How come Doc. Watson plays a Gallagher? How come Pierre Bensusan plays Lowden??   Etc, etc ,etc. I feel your persistent suggestion that non-Martinists are nobodies is wearing very thin....I believe Leo Kottke is a Taylor man.(Correct me if I'm wrong) Doyle Dykes plays Taylor. I play Lowden and LL..(wonderful guitar and such good value!!).......My Olsen holds up well,too....

                  Regards to all....Spot   :-)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:49 AM

Yamaha bashing is a very popular sport among the non-cognoscenti because most people associate Yamaha with motorbikes and electronic keyboards. Fact is, they have been fundamental in instrument making since 1875, when they made their first instrument, a reed organ. They have made pianos since 1901 (I have one, made in 1995 - it is wonderful, and no, it doesn't have anything electronic in it) and have made most of the orchestral instruments throughout the years. They came to guitar making much later, in 1961. Some of their classical instruments are hugely expensive, hand made in Japan. Their popular ranges are generally made in Taiwan but I think the L series are Japanese. To me, they are a bit like Sony are in their marketplace, ubiquitous yet synonymous with good quality.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM

Spot, where did I say most of the instruments you mentioned were lousy? And where did I mention that these artists you mention are either bluegrassers who play Martins or country performers who play Gibsons?

Leo Kottke is neither, and the others you mention are so obscure that really very few if anybody really cares.

The biggest joke is what's between your ears.

I may sound schoolboy, but you sure do sound like a snob.

At least I'm having some fun with it.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:24 AM

I recently traded in my 1979 Yamaha dreadnought. (FG335) for a Yamaha LS6. The LS6 is an absolute beauty; small bodied (roughly equivalent to a 000 size) solid englemann spruce top, solid Indian rosewood back and sides, comfortable neck, very nice inlays and binding, a nitro high-gloss finish, and, most importantly, beautiful tone. It's got a lovely balance of brightness and richness, without the dreadnought boom of my old FG. It cost just GDP 369, minus the trade-in for the FG.

For more information on the Yamaha L-series, check this link:
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/guitar/aguitar/fabrication.html

Alternatively, I could have paid GDP 750 plus for a Martin 000M, with laminate (a.k.a. plywood) back and sides and cheap matt finish (matt finishes do not age well), but why would I want to do that, if not solely for the feel-good factor of owning A MARTIN? I do like the mid to higher-end Martins, but I think the entry level models are selling the name more than the guitar, and in Europe they are overpriced, given current exchange rates.

On a more general note, I would characterise terminology like 'Jap' and 'sushi-boards' as zenophobic and borderline racist. Language like that tells us more about the user than about his/her opinions.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM

I played one of those LS6's a couple of weeks ago and very nearly had a serious relapse of GAS. Much better than any of the cheaper Martins I've tried.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM

Guest, Paul from Scotland.

I'm glad you enjoy your Jap sushi board Yamaha. Your political correctness tells me plenty, also.

But I do agree that Martin is using it's name to sell it's lower end instruments. I call that terrific marketing. I know plenty of people who are pleased with them.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:28 PM

Martin,

'political correctness' means abdicating your own independence of thought to the (usually liberal) orthodoxies of the time. e.g. "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas"; for fear of offending Jews and Muslims.

Questioning unthinkingly zenophobic use of language is not political correctness. Using that accusation is just side-stepping the issue. Would you feel comfortable using such terminology in the company of a Japanese colleague?


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:08 PM

Guest, Paul fi'Scotland   (what's wrong with the word "of"?)

First of all I am not in the company of a Japanese colleague here, so what the fuck?

Second of all, you are way the fuck off topic, unless you want to talk about your bunched up shorts.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM

Back to the original topic, almost:

My kid brother has a run-of-the-mill, good-but-not-great "Yammerhammer" dread -- nothing special, NOT one of those "L-series" items. He recently took up guitar after "retiring" from many years on the road as a full time rock/R&B drummer; now he's a husband and father with a day job as a schoolteacher. He's become a pretty good amateur player since he quit gigging even part-time as a drummer, and has even landed a gig as moderator of the Guitar Club at the middle school where he teaches.

My observations comparing his Yamaha to my vintage Martin: the tone is somewhat thinner (not surprisingly), and the action is *painfully* higher, to me at least -- really hard on the fingertips.

(I have complaints about my D-18's action, noted in at least one other recent thread, and am considering getting a neck reset; however, brotherman's Yamaha is much harder to play and has much higher action than my Martin.)

The basic sound of this Yamaha box is a "given" and can't be substantially improved (except perhaps electronically), but it occurs to me that this guitar could probably be made *much* more playable if turned over to a competant luthier. Adjustment/replacement of the nut and saddle might be all that's necessary, and even if the neck requires realignment, the instrument at least has an adjustable truss rod (unlike my 1969 Martin) making the job relatively simple.

The only question here: how much do you invest in a guitar that's only worth a couple hundred in the first place? On the one hand, any instrument you play and plan to keep deserves whatever maintenance/improvement you can afford. On the other hand, there's always understandable reluctance to "throw good money after bad."


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:52 PM

Lot of static in this thread. It's possible to tune it out though.
......................

punkfolkrocker's 41 guitars sounded an awful lot.

Than I did a head count - "only" 10 guitars - but in addition I make it thta I have : one bouzouki, two mandolins, a mandola, two ukeleles and a banjolele, aone balalaika, two dulcimers, one autoharp, two fiddles, two banjos, two concertinas, an accordion, two bodhrans, numerous penny whstles and mouth organs, a couple of ocarinas and a set of pan pipes. It's frightening...


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

Gibson you certainly must be afraid of something.

Mostly, you appear to be scared absolutely shitless of anything that fails to conform to your particular orthodoxy.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM

Kevin -- did you get or any more instruments for your birthday?


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

Yeah, Bridge. I'm afraid of lawyers who hang around music sites and dirty them up.

P-Gator, a cheap guitar can be improved I would think to a degree, but in the end, you still have a cheap guitar. Even Stellas had truss rods. It's all in the woods and craftsmanship. A spruce top can be of varying qualities. The glue that holds it together can have a bearing. Each time a corner is cut, I believe there is a compromise to sonics or craftsmanship.

I urge you to get your D-18 looked at. However, as I might have mentioned before, the high action might not be because of the neck, but because of some bridge lifting and bellying. A good luthier can fix this and it is definately worth fixing your classic Martin.

Martin standard series dreadnaughts are the benchmark that all others either meet or exceed.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

Not this time, PoppaGator - probably as well, considering.

(But of all that lot, the instruments that I like playing best are ones I rescued from charity shops for a few quid.)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:56 PM

if i won a vintage or new martin
or any other top end US guitar in a competition
i'd be absolutely delighted..
of course i would..
but once the excitement & novelty of owning a classic
prestige guitar gave way to the realisation
that the cost of insuring it for use at gigs
would be prohibitively expensive..

..guess i'd eventually sell it to get as much cash as possible
to buy even more cheap cool functional instruments from ebay
and 'aladdins cave' charity/pawnshops..

ps.. my use of the word "jap"
was a combination of irony & late-night lazy typing


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM

i recall a mate who saved his wages for years
to buy the brand new rickenbacker of his dreams..
none of us ever saw it..
he could'nt afford the insurance to bring it to gigs..
he would'nt get it out of its case
whenever we went to his house
because he did'nt trust his mates not to scratch it..
..and for all we know
he was probably to scared to even play it himself
in case he damaged it..

and as for its investment value in such pristine condition..
..well, we think he may have built a shrine to his cherished ricky
and intends to have it cremated alongside him when he goes..


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:27 PM

I have a Martin that, when I first bought it, used, in 1968 or so, sounded, well, okay, but nothing great. More than decent, but not a killer. So, when I happened across a 1932 0-18 that sounded really, really nice, I sold it to a friend. He went to NY, forgot to take it from his car, so a friendly local did it for him.

Years later, in 1989, I came across a nice D-28 being sold by a musician friend of mine, that had a non-Martin top. He told about a bashed-in top and a replacement done by a NYC luthier (no name remembered). Well, it was the shit! responsive, sweet, dynamic, really great, and, since it had a non-Martin top, only cost me $500 (for a 1964 D-28!).

When I looked at the serial number, it was the same guitar! It had to be rebuilt to match me, it seemed, but now it's wonderful.

But it's not my main guitar. In fact, none of my 20-or-so "keeper" guitars are my main one. I tend to play what's at hand, or what attracts me at the time. Some are Martins, some are other makers. I have a great Harmony Sovereign (circa 1965), a couple of classicals, two 12-strings, etc.

So the make is less important than the match to the player. I played a wonderful smaller guitar, a Yamaha, at Chuck Levins' store this Saturday. If I needed a smaller guitar, or could afford to tie up money in one, I'd have bought it (they're blowing them out for $350 -- DC folkies should look 'em up). I usually play a Running Dog, a sycamore guitar (with a maple guitar's snap plus a rosewood's mellowness), 'cause that suits me.

My musical sidekick, Pete Kraemer, typically plays a Gibson L-00, a very different acoustic guitar (closer to my Sovereign -- mahogany sides and back, a drier sound). My good archtop is a spruce/maple Epiphone, with its own sound.

I've played a few Collings, Taylors, Guilds, Bourgeois, Gibson, Takamine, you name it. The sound that appeals to me is a non-dreadnought Martin (despite my D-28) , with a mahogany back and sides (the sycamore jumbo Running Dog has a sort-of-mahogany sound, in a way). Anyway, I don't like the rosewood sound as much as some others.

Martins are not the ne plus ultra of guitars, but as a whole line, their quality beats most other factories. Once you reach a particular level of price/quality, it almost doesn't matter; choose what really fits you (both sound and size -- don't get a dreadnought unless you like that big lump of wood in your lap). If your ideal is Robert Johnson's blues, a D-28 or clone won't cut it. If you want to hang with Django, get a Selmer clone with that dry punch and little sustain. If you want an all-round guitar, don't expect to find something that is perfect for every kind of sound, 'cause you won't find it.

But whatever you find to play, be ready to accept that someone, somewhere, won't like your guitar, either the tone, model, size, color, type of strings, number of strings, tuners, finish, country of origin, price, or maker.

Tough shit! Play what you like/afford/find and, as Big Mick taught us, "Ready -- two, three, four -- BITE ME!


Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Auggie (still cookieless)
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:24 AM

Ah, another pleasant Mudcat exchange of ideas that I can't resist adding my two cents worth to.

One of the few nice things about being old (and gray haired) is that you can walk into the high-end room of any guitar store in the US, pick up a multi-thousand dollar instrument, and play to your heart's content-all day if you want-without some asshole clerk or owner haranguing or harrassing you. Especially if it's a small shop and you make a point of parking your German-made automobile right in front. As such, and because I am still being treated through a 12-step program for GAS (my wife says if I take even 12 steps toward the nearest guitar merchant, she'll kill me)(the treatment works), I have spent an inordinate amount of time playing and sometimes owning high end guitars.

The folks in Nazareth still makes some awesome instruments, but to limit one's self to just American Martin or Gibsons is, IMHO, placing unnecessary restrictions on your potential enjoyment. Collings, Alvarez-Yari, Yamaha, James Goodall, Santa Cruz, Olson, Guild, Takamine all make some guitars that are, 'to die for', and that doesn't begin to touch the small-shop makers (try a Petros sometime). I've played or owned models from all of these companies, and while some are superb, some too, are just plain shit.

Craftsmanship is a montage of training, materials, experience, and conscience. No single nationality has cornered the market, not in guitar making or anything else for that matter. What part of Brooklyn was that Antonio Stradivari guy from?

My all-time favorite guitar to play belonged to a late picking partner of mine. A No-Class off-brand that cost about $300, so go figure. I still own three guitars, all Martins (D-19, J-40M, and a Brazilian D-41), and I gotta tell ya Martin Gibson, I think flooding the market with cheap-shit CFMs is not marketing genius, but a big, big mistake.

And somebody needs to tell those previous posters with their expensive axes under the bed to get them out and use them.
You want an investment, buy stock. You got a guitar, go enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:22 AM

Spot on Auggie


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

"You want an investment, buy stock. You got a guitar, go enjoy it."

Abso-f#$%ing-lutely! I bought the best guitar I could afford in 1969 because I wanted to *play* it, and as a monogamous guitar owner, I've put some wear on it. You look at my D-18, you *know* it's 35 years old -- and I like it that way.

I don't think I'd ever turn it over to airline baggage handlers, though. If I were ever to become a long-distance touring performer, I'd have to buy myself another instrument or two, and start down the slippery slope that leads to G.A.S.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM

dead right Auggie ..

and as for my opinions on
profiteering speculative investment guitar dealers
constantly muscling in on true players and hobbyist collectors,
throwing their money around and rapidly distorting and raising
the market value & 2nd hand prices for previously affordable
'unpopular' brand names..

eg UK Shergold guitars..
10 years ago £50 - £150
London Denmark St dealers called them shit and not worth the balsa wood they were sawn from..

today.. Shergold..
vintage guitars.. prime examples of hancrafted
traditional English craftmanship..
£700 to you sir.. and worth every penny..
guarranteed to be a valuable investment..

bollocks !!!!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:51 AM

I disagree completely, Auggie.

By, as you say, flooding the market, Gibson has opened up their product line to many who could not touch it before without one bit compromising the quality of their high end instruments. What they have done, in their pure marketing genius, has expanded their brand loyalty to players who will progress up to the higher end instruments should they choose to. Anyone can tell that a D-1 does not play the same as a D-35, however, it is all in the family. Sort of like the subtle similiarities between a Toyota Corolla and a Lexus ES300.

Martin's name has not been compromised. It has been enhanced, and is well assured of being around for a long time because of this.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:25 PM

late 1960's to mid 80's

fender & gibson were subjected to changes of ownership
and/or disasterous self-undermining own-throat-cutting
marketing decisions
and manufacturing economies..

guitars from that period are considered by age to be 'vintage'..
dealers try their luck to get vintage prices for them..
despite the problem that fender/gibson guitars
produced in that era are very variable in quality
and widely considered the worst made ever instruments
to be badged with those companies honourable headstock logos..

so.. whats to prevent similar corporate business suicide marketing strategies
being inevitably inflicted on any other long respected US guitar brandname..??

Btw.. if memory is correct..
in the early 80's fender,
desperate for survival
and in need of emergency help to restore their failing reputation and turnover,
bought in valuable aid and advice from yamaha guitar product consultants..


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM

Martin, the only way what you say can be true is if, and only if, the low end Martin is deemed a good instrument. If a newbie picks up a low end junk Martin and is laughed at, or has it come apart in his/her hands, cannot keep it tuned, etc., then it doesn't matter how highly the other Martins are praised. The ONLY way a manufacturer can maintain solid customer loyalty is to produce high quality products from the top end of their line to the bottom. Martin has, in my opinion and in the opinion of a LOT of other people (both in this forum and other on-line forums) sold their birthright for a lumpy bowl of porridge.

You have your older Martin and it is probably worth more to you than you would ever ask to sell it. Fine. Most of us feel that way about our "old faithfuls". But I guarantee you if I knew of someone who wanted to learn how to play the guitar and had less than, say, $300 to spend on a good beginner's instrument, I would steer them as far away from the low end Martins as I could.

Auggie, "Craftsmanship is a montage of training, materials, experience and conscience." Amen, amen. However, I disagree with your disparaging fine guitars as investments. Many instruments increase in value rather than devalue. That does not mean that one has to lock it in its case and stuff it under the bed. I tend to believe you can own a fine piece of workmanship that will in all liklihood increase its value and still play it and enjoy it. There are "beaters" for the campfire and such, and there are the "keepers" for the sing along in the living room. Both are legitimate uses, and IMO its better to have more than one guitar anyway!!    : )

Anyway, I'm keeping the old "Yammerhammer" until the day an offer comes along that I just cannot refuse.

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM

"......who hang around music sites and dirty them up." Sheesh!! Look who's talking!!

I think we know everything we need to know about Martin Gibson. He's nothing more than one continuous poop joke.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM

Go to hell, Hall.

You contribute nothing to the music portion that any amateur/beginner wouldn't already know.

You just might be a money grubbing lawyer who plays a piece of crap guitar, also, I figure. All talk and zero talent, ability, or experience.

freightdawg, I also know REAL people who currently own newer low end Martins. I don't see them falling apart in their hands. I see and hear them making decent sounding music on them.

And I never see them at garage sales or flea markets, like your common Yamahas and other stuff sold in guitar packs complete with strap and pick.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

"Brand Loyalty". As in the suggestion that, if you like Guinness and you feel like drinking lager some time, just for a change, you really should try drinking Harp, because the same people make it and market it.

Not if you like lager you won't!

"Brand loyalty" is something people selling things believe in. When you are buying, it's not such a very good idea generally.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Auggie
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

But MG, in the old days Martins were not the Toyota's of the acoustic world, they were the Mercedes-Benz or Rolls Royce. Just as there is still no such thing as a junk-model Mercedes, there used to be no such thing as a low-end Martin. I liked it better when the more cheaply made Martins said "Sigma" on the headstock, but maybe I'm just a guitar snob. God knows I've been guilty of much worse things in this life.

I recognize as well, that without having models available to gain a larger market share CFM may have gone the way of Rolls or Bentley (bought out by more widely affordable competitors BMW and Volkswagon),and I recognize that I know less about marketing than I do about quantom physics, so my opinion is far from infallible in this arena, but Hey, when did that ever stop anybody on the Mudcat...
I hope that you found Thanksgiving to be as enjoyable as you had hoped.
Regards


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

HAH!! ME?? SAM HALL?? A LAWYER?? Shows ya what an ignorant bugger Martin Gibson is!!   

Don't mind me, folks. I'm just 'angin' around.......


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 05:21 PM

I can't see much point in this argument. Choosing a guitar is a very personal thing.

have you sold the Yamaha? The L series as I remember makes it a workshop rather than factory job - so it will be pretty damn good.

But yamaha quality control is pretty good. I've nevr had a bad one and I owned for a brief period a real stinker Martin D35 - having said that if I'd had the IQ of slug I'd have had it sorted out by a luthier instead of getting rid of it. silly me.

Does it have a electrics? If so which sort? the electrics on my yamaha working guitar which goes out most days to earn me a few quid have just died. Replacing them is £150 so I am considering my options.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:34 PM

Guest, No one in America calls somewhat an "ignorant bugger."


And we do mind you hanging around. Take your cockney talk out of here motherfucker (definately has more ring than "ignorant bugger" don't you think?)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:58 PM

f8ck off and wank yerself stupid martin gibson
you useless boring old yank..

thats tried & tested english language translation

for i'm new here
and getting very bored with your
old time good ol boy yank chauvanistic
twat US SUPREMIST talk.

sorry but i'm very drunk
and i've wasted at least a week
giving you martin gibson the benefit of the doubt..

american people like
you make me very worried for the future.

but on the off chance i might meet you face to face
in an english punkfolk club..
mines a pint of stella if you're paying..

and put your martin wood box down
because i'm going to do you proper
in man to man arm wrestling..

YANK C***


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:10 PM

sorry.. got a bit annoyed


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM

punkfolkrocker - I'm gonna jump in here cuz I usually bring out the best in Martin. :>)   He is the legendary, ugly American. He also does his best to insult almost everyone at one time or another. He is just another unhappy, bored with life, loser. I don't think anyone has actually met him and I, for one, think he is a complete sociopath. As long as he is confined to the net, he is harmless.

d


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 06:45 AM

Of course the person in question has several times insisted that what we get here on the Mudcat is a completely fictitious character, playing games. Playing silly buggers in fact, as it's called over here. That would imply that any comment, ripoiste or insult should be disregarded as meaningless. Or left unread, according to taste.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:13 AM

Hello everybody..
                   Got a bit of a problem...I've got an LL guitar here which I may be wanting to trade for something a tad better.Anybody any idea what it may be worth and what I should be thinking of next? All advice greatfully received.....(yuk,yuk!!)

                   Tee-hee-hee...........

                Regards to all....Spot   :-) xx


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

Hey, Martin Gob-Sin! Up your chimney with a wire brush!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

Sam
    So succint.. (and I'm not even sure what it means!!) what it means!!).
             Regards to all, as ever....Spot


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM

Tyke a look 'ere.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM

In 1969, my D-18 was the economy-model Martin. Today, it's a valuable and (more-importantly) a great-sounding vintage instrument.

35 years from now, I wonder just how well-regarded one of *today's* economy-model Martins will be.

Somehow, I don't think it'll be the same.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:19 PM

punkfolkrocker

Go do you arm wrestling with your butt buddies. Obviously no women will have a drunk like you.

But let's get serious for a moment. Dianavan is a man hater and will bite your dick off given the chance. She has a collection of them on her shelf and sells one every now and then to help pay for her dope habit. She prefers them uncircumcised and gets a bigger tip for those that she can deliver that way.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM

where would trad folk be now without the rumbustious inspiration
of ages-old traditions of drinkin'& cussin'& fightin' folks...??

were WOULD folk be NOW

without such desperately unfunny cretinous ultra conservative twats..
as martin gibson dragging it back into the primeval sludge..

if you are a real american..
real life person..
and not some constructed internet persona
existing for the sole amusement of just another sad disfunctional insecure trollish twat..

[sorry for overuse of the word "twat"
you're clearly not worthy of its more adult version
and i apologise to mudcatters for wasting it on you
when i was drunk ..
i usually only reserve the insult "c***" for adversaries i respect..]

i just hope whoever you are in the real world
that you are a more positive influence on younger people
taking their first precarious steps towards a potential lifelong
enjoyment of folk music in all its multifaceted & intertwined forms..

saddest thing is that people very possibly like i imagine you may be
have created some of my favourite old time american music..

oh well.. we learn to cope with lifes little ironies..

by the way i 'service my wifes bedtime demands minimum 6 nights a week..
i was that drunk because it was my one night off for months
to go out and enjoy a good ol' boy drinking session
on my own..

g'night...


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:08 PM

You stink of booze, you cockney sloth.


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Subject: Fishman Aura query
From: GUEST,Steve Jones
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

Hi,
I just got a Fishman Aura and need to match a sound image from their list to my Yamaha FG 410. In an ideal world I'd have one of those choice guitars to play, but until that rose tinted day, does anyone know a guitar that might match?

Cheers,
Steve


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:18 PM

Martin Gibson, you opined: "I can tell you this much. Bluegrass musicians, who are considered by many to be the most accomplished acoustic musicians around, would not be caught dead with a Taylor..."

Ever hear of Dan Crary or his buddy Beppe? They're BOTH considered to be among the best in Bluegrass, you know...


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:13 PM

Yes, I have heard of Dan Crary and he does play a Taylor. There is always an exception to the rule. Beppe I am not fazmiliar with. You can always find one or two exceptions to the norm in just about anything.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Auggie
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM

I stumbled onto Beppe Gambetta through a Dan Crary CD titled "Jammed If I Do". Man, if I could flat pick like that cat, there would be one less grumpy person slouching off to his day job tomorrow morning and one more fat middle-ager playing all night long with a smile you just couldn't erase.


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