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Guitar sale/purchase predicament

Auggie 05 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM
Once Famous 05 Dec 04 - 08:13 PM
Terry Allan Hall 05 Dec 04 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Steve Jones 05 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM
Once Famous 30 Nov 04 - 05:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM
Once Famous 29 Nov 04 - 09:19 PM
PoppaGator 28 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Sam Hall 28 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM
GUEST 28 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Sam Hall 28 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM
Spot 28 Nov 04 - 07:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Nov 04 - 06:45 AM
dianavan 28 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 11:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 10:58 PM
Once Famous 27 Nov 04 - 10:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Nov 04 - 05:21 PM
GUEST 27 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM
Auggie 27 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM
Once Famous 27 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Sam Hall 27 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM
freightdawg 27 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 12:25 PM
Once Famous 27 Nov 04 - 11:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM
PoppaGator 27 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM
ThreeSheds 27 Nov 04 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Auggie (still cookieless) 27 Nov 04 - 02:24 AM
GUEST,Songster Bob 26 Nov 04 - 09:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Nov 04 - 07:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Nov 04 - 04:52 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland 26 Nov 04 - 12:28 PM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM
Pete Jennings 26 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland 26 Nov 04 - 11:24 AM
Once Famous 26 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Terry K 26 Nov 04 - 03:49 AM
Spot 26 Nov 04 - 03:16 AM
Once Famous 25 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Auggie
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM

I stumbled onto Beppe Gambetta through a Dan Crary CD titled "Jammed If I Do". Man, if I could flat pick like that cat, there would be one less grumpy person slouching off to his day job tomorrow morning and one more fat middle-ager playing all night long with a smile you just couldn't erase.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:13 PM

Yes, I have heard of Dan Crary and he does play a Taylor. There is always an exception to the rule. Beppe I am not fazmiliar with. You can always find one or two exceptions to the norm in just about anything.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:18 PM

Martin Gibson, you opined: "I can tell you this much. Bluegrass musicians, who are considered by many to be the most accomplished acoustic musicians around, would not be caught dead with a Taylor..."

Ever hear of Dan Crary or his buddy Beppe? They're BOTH considered to be among the best in Bluegrass, you know...


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Subject: Fishman Aura query
From: GUEST,Steve Jones
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

Hi,
I just got a Fishman Aura and need to match a sound image from their list to my Yamaha FG 410. In an ideal world I'd have one of those choice guitars to play, but until that rose tinted day, does anyone know a guitar that might match?

Cheers,
Steve


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:08 PM

You stink of booze, you cockney sloth.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM

where would trad folk be now without the rumbustious inspiration
of ages-old traditions of drinkin'& cussin'& fightin' folks...??

were WOULD folk be NOW

without such desperately unfunny cretinous ultra conservative twats..
as martin gibson dragging it back into the primeval sludge..

if you are a real american..
real life person..
and not some constructed internet persona
existing for the sole amusement of just another sad disfunctional insecure trollish twat..

[sorry for overuse of the word "twat"
you're clearly not worthy of its more adult version
and i apologise to mudcatters for wasting it on you
when i was drunk ..
i usually only reserve the insult "c***" for adversaries i respect..]

i just hope whoever you are in the real world
that you are a more positive influence on younger people
taking their first precarious steps towards a potential lifelong
enjoyment of folk music in all its multifaceted & intertwined forms..

saddest thing is that people very possibly like i imagine you may be
have created some of my favourite old time american music..

oh well.. we learn to cope with lifes little ironies..

by the way i 'service my wifes bedtime demands minimum 6 nights a week..
i was that drunk because it was my one night off for months
to go out and enjoy a good ol' boy drinking session
on my own..

g'night...


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:19 PM

punkfolkrocker

Go do you arm wrestling with your butt buddies. Obviously no women will have a drunk like you.

But let's get serious for a moment. Dianavan is a man hater and will bite your dick off given the chance. She has a collection of them on her shelf and sells one every now and then to help pay for her dope habit. She prefers them uncircumcised and gets a bigger tip for those that she can deliver that way.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM

In 1969, my D-18 was the economy-model Martin. Today, it's a valuable and (more-importantly) a great-sounding vintage instrument.

35 years from now, I wonder just how well-regarded one of *today's* economy-model Martins will be.

Somehow, I don't think it'll be the same.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM

Tyke a look 'ere.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

Sam
    So succint.. (and I'm not even sure what it means!!) what it means!!).
             Regards to all, as ever....Spot


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

Hey, Martin Gob-Sin! Up your chimney with a wire brush!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:13 AM

Hello everybody..
                   Got a bit of a problem...I've got an LL guitar here which I may be wanting to trade for something a tad better.Anybody any idea what it may be worth and what I should be thinking of next? All advice greatfully received.....(yuk,yuk!!)

                   Tee-hee-hee...........

                Regards to all....Spot   :-) xx


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 06:45 AM

Of course the person in question has several times insisted that what we get here on the Mudcat is a completely fictitious character, playing games. Playing silly buggers in fact, as it's called over here. That would imply that any comment, ripoiste or insult should be disregarded as meaningless. Or left unread, according to taste.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 12:03 AM

punkfolkrocker - I'm gonna jump in here cuz I usually bring out the best in Martin. :>)   He is the legendary, ugly American. He also does his best to insult almost everyone at one time or another. He is just another unhappy, bored with life, loser. I don't think anyone has actually met him and I, for one, think he is a complete sociopath. As long as he is confined to the net, he is harmless.

d


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:10 PM

sorry.. got a bit annoyed


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:58 PM

f8ck off and wank yerself stupid martin gibson
you useless boring old yank..

thats tried & tested english language translation

for i'm new here
and getting very bored with your
old time good ol boy yank chauvanistic
twat US SUPREMIST talk.

sorry but i'm very drunk
and i've wasted at least a week
giving you martin gibson the benefit of the doubt..

american people like
you make me very worried for the future.

but on the off chance i might meet you face to face
in an english punkfolk club..
mines a pint of stella if you're paying..

and put your martin wood box down
because i'm going to do you proper
in man to man arm wrestling..

YANK C***


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:34 PM

Guest, No one in America calls somewhat an "ignorant bugger."


And we do mind you hanging around. Take your cockney talk out of here motherfucker (definately has more ring than "ignorant bugger" don't you think?)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 05:21 PM

I can't see much point in this argument. Choosing a guitar is a very personal thing.

have you sold the Yamaha? The L series as I remember makes it a workshop rather than factory job - so it will be pretty damn good.

But yamaha quality control is pretty good. I've nevr had a bad one and I owned for a brief period a real stinker Martin D35 - having said that if I'd had the IQ of slug I'd have had it sorted out by a luthier instead of getting rid of it. silly me.

Does it have a electrics? If so which sort? the electrics on my yamaha working guitar which goes out most days to earn me a few quid have just died. Replacing them is £150 so I am considering my options.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

HAH!! ME?? SAM HALL?? A LAWYER?? Shows ya what an ignorant bugger Martin Gibson is!!   

Don't mind me, folks. I'm just 'angin' around.......


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Auggie
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

But MG, in the old days Martins were not the Toyota's of the acoustic world, they were the Mercedes-Benz or Rolls Royce. Just as there is still no such thing as a junk-model Mercedes, there used to be no such thing as a low-end Martin. I liked it better when the more cheaply made Martins said "Sigma" on the headstock, but maybe I'm just a guitar snob. God knows I've been guilty of much worse things in this life.

I recognize as well, that without having models available to gain a larger market share CFM may have gone the way of Rolls or Bentley (bought out by more widely affordable competitors BMW and Volkswagon),and I recognize that I know less about marketing than I do about quantom physics, so my opinion is far from infallible in this arena, but Hey, when did that ever stop anybody on the Mudcat...
I hope that you found Thanksgiving to be as enjoyable as you had hoped.
Regards


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

"Brand Loyalty". As in the suggestion that, if you like Guinness and you feel like drinking lager some time, just for a change, you really should try drinking Harp, because the same people make it and market it.

Not if you like lager you won't!

"Brand loyalty" is something people selling things believe in. When you are buying, it's not such a very good idea generally.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM

Go to hell, Hall.

You contribute nothing to the music portion that any amateur/beginner wouldn't already know.

You just might be a money grubbing lawyer who plays a piece of crap guitar, also, I figure. All talk and zero talent, ability, or experience.

freightdawg, I also know REAL people who currently own newer low end Martins. I don't see them falling apart in their hands. I see and hear them making decent sounding music on them.

And I never see them at garage sales or flea markets, like your common Yamahas and other stuff sold in guitar packs complete with strap and pick.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM

"......who hang around music sites and dirty them up." Sheesh!! Look who's talking!!

I think we know everything we need to know about Martin Gibson. He's nothing more than one continuous poop joke.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: freightdawg
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM

Martin, the only way what you say can be true is if, and only if, the low end Martin is deemed a good instrument. If a newbie picks up a low end junk Martin and is laughed at, or has it come apart in his/her hands, cannot keep it tuned, etc., then it doesn't matter how highly the other Martins are praised. The ONLY way a manufacturer can maintain solid customer loyalty is to produce high quality products from the top end of their line to the bottom. Martin has, in my opinion and in the opinion of a LOT of other people (both in this forum and other on-line forums) sold their birthright for a lumpy bowl of porridge.

You have your older Martin and it is probably worth more to you than you would ever ask to sell it. Fine. Most of us feel that way about our "old faithfuls". But I guarantee you if I knew of someone who wanted to learn how to play the guitar and had less than, say, $300 to spend on a good beginner's instrument, I would steer them as far away from the low end Martins as I could.

Auggie, "Craftsmanship is a montage of training, materials, experience and conscience." Amen, amen. However, I disagree with your disparaging fine guitars as investments. Many instruments increase in value rather than devalue. That does not mean that one has to lock it in its case and stuff it under the bed. I tend to believe you can own a fine piece of workmanship that will in all liklihood increase its value and still play it and enjoy it. There are "beaters" for the campfire and such, and there are the "keepers" for the sing along in the living room. Both are legitimate uses, and IMO its better to have more than one guitar anyway!!    : )

Anyway, I'm keeping the old "Yammerhammer" until the day an offer comes along that I just cannot refuse.

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:25 PM

late 1960's to mid 80's

fender & gibson were subjected to changes of ownership
and/or disasterous self-undermining own-throat-cutting
marketing decisions
and manufacturing economies..

guitars from that period are considered by age to be 'vintage'..
dealers try their luck to get vintage prices for them..
despite the problem that fender/gibson guitars
produced in that era are very variable in quality
and widely considered the worst made ever instruments
to be badged with those companies honourable headstock logos..

so.. whats to prevent similar corporate business suicide marketing strategies
being inevitably inflicted on any other long respected US guitar brandname..??

Btw.. if memory is correct..
in the early 80's fender,
desperate for survival
and in need of emergency help to restore their failing reputation and turnover,
bought in valuable aid and advice from yamaha guitar product consultants..


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:51 AM

I disagree completely, Auggie.

By, as you say, flooding the market, Gibson has opened up their product line to many who could not touch it before without one bit compromising the quality of their high end instruments. What they have done, in their pure marketing genius, has expanded their brand loyalty to players who will progress up to the higher end instruments should they choose to. Anyone can tell that a D-1 does not play the same as a D-35, however, it is all in the family. Sort of like the subtle similiarities between a Toyota Corolla and a Lexus ES300.

Martin's name has not been compromised. It has been enhanced, and is well assured of being around for a long time because of this.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM

dead right Auggie ..

and as for my opinions on
profiteering speculative investment guitar dealers
constantly muscling in on true players and hobbyist collectors,
throwing their money around and rapidly distorting and raising
the market value & 2nd hand prices for previously affordable
'unpopular' brand names..

eg UK Shergold guitars..
10 years ago £50 - £150
London Denmark St dealers called them shit and not worth the balsa wood they were sawn from..

today.. Shergold..
vintage guitars.. prime examples of hancrafted
traditional English craftmanship..
£700 to you sir.. and worth every penny..
guarranteed to be a valuable investment..

bollocks !!!!


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

"You want an investment, buy stock. You got a guitar, go enjoy it."

Abso-f#$%ing-lutely! I bought the best guitar I could afford in 1969 because I wanted to *play* it, and as a monogamous guitar owner, I've put some wear on it. You look at my D-18, you *know* it's 35 years old -- and I like it that way.

I don't think I'd ever turn it over to airline baggage handlers, though. If I were ever to become a long-distance touring performer, I'd have to buy myself another instrument or two, and start down the slippery slope that leads to G.A.S.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:22 AM

Spot on Auggie


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Auggie (still cookieless)
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:24 AM

Ah, another pleasant Mudcat exchange of ideas that I can't resist adding my two cents worth to.

One of the few nice things about being old (and gray haired) is that you can walk into the high-end room of any guitar store in the US, pick up a multi-thousand dollar instrument, and play to your heart's content-all day if you want-without some asshole clerk or owner haranguing or harrassing you. Especially if it's a small shop and you make a point of parking your German-made automobile right in front. As such, and because I am still being treated through a 12-step program for GAS (my wife says if I take even 12 steps toward the nearest guitar merchant, she'll kill me)(the treatment works), I have spent an inordinate amount of time playing and sometimes owning high end guitars.

The folks in Nazareth still makes some awesome instruments, but to limit one's self to just American Martin or Gibsons is, IMHO, placing unnecessary restrictions on your potential enjoyment. Collings, Alvarez-Yari, Yamaha, James Goodall, Santa Cruz, Olson, Guild, Takamine all make some guitars that are, 'to die for', and that doesn't begin to touch the small-shop makers (try a Petros sometime). I've played or owned models from all of these companies, and while some are superb, some too, are just plain shit.

Craftsmanship is a montage of training, materials, experience, and conscience. No single nationality has cornered the market, not in guitar making or anything else for that matter. What part of Brooklyn was that Antonio Stradivari guy from?

My all-time favorite guitar to play belonged to a late picking partner of mine. A No-Class off-brand that cost about $300, so go figure. I still own three guitars, all Martins (D-19, J-40M, and a Brazilian D-41), and I gotta tell ya Martin Gibson, I think flooding the market with cheap-shit CFMs is not marketing genius, but a big, big mistake.

And somebody needs to tell those previous posters with their expensive axes under the bed to get them out and use them.
You want an investment, buy stock. You got a guitar, go enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:27 PM

I have a Martin that, when I first bought it, used, in 1968 or so, sounded, well, okay, but nothing great. More than decent, but not a killer. So, when I happened across a 1932 0-18 that sounded really, really nice, I sold it to a friend. He went to NY, forgot to take it from his car, so a friendly local did it for him.

Years later, in 1989, I came across a nice D-28 being sold by a musician friend of mine, that had a non-Martin top. He told about a bashed-in top and a replacement done by a NYC luthier (no name remembered). Well, it was the shit! responsive, sweet, dynamic, really great, and, since it had a non-Martin top, only cost me $500 (for a 1964 D-28!).

When I looked at the serial number, it was the same guitar! It had to be rebuilt to match me, it seemed, but now it's wonderful.

But it's not my main guitar. In fact, none of my 20-or-so "keeper" guitars are my main one. I tend to play what's at hand, or what attracts me at the time. Some are Martins, some are other makers. I have a great Harmony Sovereign (circa 1965), a couple of classicals, two 12-strings, etc.

So the make is less important than the match to the player. I played a wonderful smaller guitar, a Yamaha, at Chuck Levins' store this Saturday. If I needed a smaller guitar, or could afford to tie up money in one, I'd have bought it (they're blowing them out for $350 -- DC folkies should look 'em up). I usually play a Running Dog, a sycamore guitar (with a maple guitar's snap plus a rosewood's mellowness), 'cause that suits me.

My musical sidekick, Pete Kraemer, typically plays a Gibson L-00, a very different acoustic guitar (closer to my Sovereign -- mahogany sides and back, a drier sound). My good archtop is a spruce/maple Epiphone, with its own sound.

I've played a few Collings, Taylors, Guilds, Bourgeois, Gibson, Takamine, you name it. The sound that appeals to me is a non-dreadnought Martin (despite my D-28) , with a mahogany back and sides (the sycamore jumbo Running Dog has a sort-of-mahogany sound, in a way). Anyway, I don't like the rosewood sound as much as some others.

Martins are not the ne plus ultra of guitars, but as a whole line, their quality beats most other factories. Once you reach a particular level of price/quality, it almost doesn't matter; choose what really fits you (both sound and size -- don't get a dreadnought unless you like that big lump of wood in your lap). If your ideal is Robert Johnson's blues, a D-28 or clone won't cut it. If you want to hang with Django, get a Selmer clone with that dry punch and little sustain. If you want an all-round guitar, don't expect to find something that is perfect for every kind of sound, 'cause you won't find it.

But whatever you find to play, be ready to accept that someone, somewhere, won't like your guitar, either the tone, model, size, color, type of strings, number of strings, tuners, finish, country of origin, price, or maker.

Tough shit! Play what you like/afford/find and, as Big Mick taught us, "Ready -- two, three, four -- BITE ME!


Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM

i recall a mate who saved his wages for years
to buy the brand new rickenbacker of his dreams..
none of us ever saw it..
he could'nt afford the insurance to bring it to gigs..
he would'nt get it out of its case
whenever we went to his house
because he did'nt trust his mates not to scratch it..
..and for all we know
he was probably to scared to even play it himself
in case he damaged it..

and as for its investment value in such pristine condition..
..well, we think he may have built a shrine to his cherished ricky
and intends to have it cremated alongside him when he goes..


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:56 PM

if i won a vintage or new martin
or any other top end US guitar in a competition
i'd be absolutely delighted..
of course i would..
but once the excitement & novelty of owning a classic
prestige guitar gave way to the realisation
that the cost of insuring it for use at gigs
would be prohibitively expensive..

..guess i'd eventually sell it to get as much cash as possible
to buy even more cheap cool functional instruments from ebay
and 'aladdins cave' charity/pawnshops..

ps.. my use of the word "jap"
was a combination of irony & late-night lazy typing


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

Not this time, PoppaGator - probably as well, considering.

(But of all that lot, the instruments that I like playing best are ones I rescued from charity shops for a few quid.)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

Yeah, Bridge. I'm afraid of lawyers who hang around music sites and dirty them up.

P-Gator, a cheap guitar can be improved I would think to a degree, but in the end, you still have a cheap guitar. Even Stellas had truss rods. It's all in the woods and craftsmanship. A spruce top can be of varying qualities. The glue that holds it together can have a bearing. Each time a corner is cut, I believe there is a compromise to sonics or craftsmanship.

I urge you to get your D-18 looked at. However, as I might have mentioned before, the high action might not be because of the neck, but because of some bridge lifting and bellying. A good luthier can fix this and it is definately worth fixing your classic Martin.

Martin standard series dreadnaughts are the benchmark that all others either meet or exceed.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM

Kevin -- did you get or any more instruments for your birthday?


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

Gibson you certainly must be afraid of something.

Mostly, you appear to be scared absolutely shitless of anything that fails to conform to your particular orthodoxy.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:52 PM

Lot of static in this thread. It's possible to tune it out though.
......................

punkfolkrocker's 41 guitars sounded an awful lot.

Than I did a head count - "only" 10 guitars - but in addition I make it thta I have : one bouzouki, two mandolins, a mandola, two ukeleles and a banjolele, aone balalaika, two dulcimers, one autoharp, two fiddles, two banjos, two concertinas, an accordion, two bodhrans, numerous penny whstles and mouth organs, a couple of ocarinas and a set of pan pipes. It's frightening...


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM

Back to the original topic, almost:

My kid brother has a run-of-the-mill, good-but-not-great "Yammerhammer" dread -- nothing special, NOT one of those "L-series" items. He recently took up guitar after "retiring" from many years on the road as a full time rock/R&B drummer; now he's a husband and father with a day job as a schoolteacher. He's become a pretty good amateur player since he quit gigging even part-time as a drummer, and has even landed a gig as moderator of the Guitar Club at the middle school where he teaches.

My observations comparing his Yamaha to my vintage Martin: the tone is somewhat thinner (not surprisingly), and the action is *painfully* higher, to me at least -- really hard on the fingertips.

(I have complaints about my D-18's action, noted in at least one other recent thread, and am considering getting a neck reset; however, brotherman's Yamaha is much harder to play and has much higher action than my Martin.)

The basic sound of this Yamaha box is a "given" and can't be substantially improved (except perhaps electronically), but it occurs to me that this guitar could probably be made *much* more playable if turned over to a competant luthier. Adjustment/replacement of the nut and saddle might be all that's necessary, and even if the neck requires realignment, the instrument at least has an adjustable truss rod (unlike my 1969 Martin) making the job relatively simple.

The only question here: how much do you invest in a guitar that's only worth a couple hundred in the first place? On the one hand, any instrument you play and plan to keep deserves whatever maintenance/improvement you can afford. On the other hand, there's always understandable reluctance to "throw good money after bad."


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:08 PM

Guest, Paul fi'Scotland   (what's wrong with the word "of"?)

First of all I am not in the company of a Japanese colleague here, so what the fuck?

Second of all, you are way the fuck off topic, unless you want to talk about your bunched up shorts.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:28 PM

Martin,

'political correctness' means abdicating your own independence of thought to the (usually liberal) orthodoxies of the time. e.g. "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas"; for fear of offending Jews and Muslims.

Questioning unthinkingly zenophobic use of language is not political correctness. Using that accusation is just side-stepping the issue. Would you feel comfortable using such terminology in the company of a Japanese colleague?


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:54 AM

Guest, Paul from Scotland.

I'm glad you enjoy your Jap sushi board Yamaha. Your political correctness tells me plenty, also.

But I do agree that Martin is using it's name to sell it's lower end instruments. I call that terrific marketing. I know plenty of people who are pleased with them.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM

I played one of those LS6's a couple of weeks ago and very nearly had a serious relapse of GAS. Much better than any of the cheaper Martins I've tried.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Paul fi' Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:24 AM

I recently traded in my 1979 Yamaha dreadnought. (FG335) for a Yamaha LS6. The LS6 is an absolute beauty; small bodied (roughly equivalent to a 000 size) solid englemann spruce top, solid Indian rosewood back and sides, comfortable neck, very nice inlays and binding, a nitro high-gloss finish, and, most importantly, beautiful tone. It's got a lovely balance of brightness and richness, without the dreadnought boom of my old FG. It cost just GDP 369, minus the trade-in for the FG.

For more information on the Yamaha L-series, check this link:
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/guitar/aguitar/fabrication.html

Alternatively, I could have paid GDP 750 plus for a Martin 000M, with laminate (a.k.a. plywood) back and sides and cheap matt finish (matt finishes do not age well), but why would I want to do that, if not solely for the feel-good factor of owning A MARTIN? I do like the mid to higher-end Martins, but I think the entry level models are selling the name more than the guitar, and in Europe they are overpriced, given current exchange rates.

On a more general note, I would characterise terminology like 'Jap' and 'sushi-boards' as zenophobic and borderline racist. Language like that tells us more about the user than about his/her opinions.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM

Spot, where did I say most of the instruments you mentioned were lousy? And where did I mention that these artists you mention are either bluegrassers who play Martins or country performers who play Gibsons?

Leo Kottke is neither, and the others you mention are so obscure that really very few if anybody really cares.

The biggest joke is what's between your ears.

I may sound schoolboy, but you sure do sound like a snob.

At least I'm having some fun with it.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:49 AM

Yamaha bashing is a very popular sport among the non-cognoscenti because most people associate Yamaha with motorbikes and electronic keyboards. Fact is, they have been fundamental in instrument making since 1875, when they made their first instrument, a reed organ. They have made pianos since 1901 (I have one, made in 1995 - it is wonderful, and no, it doesn't have anything electronic in it) and have made most of the orchestral instruments throughout the years. They came to guitar making much later, in 1961. Some of their classical instruments are hugely expensive, hand made in Japan. Their popular ranges are generally made in Taiwan but I think the L series are Japanese. To me, they are a bit like Sony are in their marketplace, ubiquitous yet synonymous with good quality.


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Spot
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:16 AM

So, Mr Gibson, that remark about sushi was a JOKE? Sounds pretty schoolboy to me. I'm afraid your sort of humour's beyond me. Please explain the "brown spot" thing. Another, errrmm..joke? How come Sean Watkins plays a Bourgeois? How come Doc. Watson plays a Gallagher? How come Pierre Bensusan plays Lowden??   Etc, etc ,etc. I feel your persistent suggestion that non-Martinists are nobodies is wearing very thin....I believe Leo Kottke is a Taylor man.(Correct me if I'm wrong) Doyle Dykes plays Taylor. I play Lowden and LL..(wonderful guitar and such good value!!).......My Olsen holds up well,too....

                  Regards to all....Spot   :-)


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM

Richard Bridge, I don't need to post my real name as you do because I am not a full of crap (and himself) lawyer on the usual ego trip.

You said it all when you said " I listen better than I play." Most lawyers like you only listen to themselves which really means your playing is nothing to write home about.

Going to my bi-weekly bluegrass jam tomoorow night, featuring some of the best players in the Chicago to Mil;waukee area. Virtually all of them have Martins ranging from new to 40 years old. We'll all get a good laugh out of the sushi board Yamaha joke I made.

Spot, what's that brown spot?


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM

just gone round the house & done a quick head count..

approx 41 guitars of various styles, colours, shapes and sizes..
.. and another 5 or 6 'projects' awaiting completion.


only 1 is a traditional orthodox acoustic..[made in canada]

7 are made in england..

the rest made in various far eastern countries..

except only one made in america.. a jerry jones [baby] sitar..

of course.. I could have spent the total cost instead
on a mere 2 or 3 high end prestige US brand name guitars..

but it would not have been anywhere near as as much fun
as owning & playing more than 41..

lets not forget how back in the early 80's
the japs seriously blew away forever
the dominant myth/reality of american guitar brand-name superiority..

and now a 1/4 of a century later even chinese factory's
are churning out low price high quality fender and gibson beaters
for beginners and semi-pro markets...
[.. and increasingly more open minded peer-pressure resistant pro-players ??? ]

in terms of manufacturing quality..
even my recently produced 'cheap shit' guitars are most likely better made and more easily playable
than the guitars used to record so many
of my favourite old folk coutry blues and rock'n'roll records..

and even if i ever was in a situation where i'd need to perform
with 1 single acoustic radiating sublime quality and rich full tone
comparable to a classical grand piano..

i'd probably negotiate an expense account to hire one in for a few days..

ps.. an american name i revere for its uniquely influential historical, and social significance..
is Danelectro/Silvertone..

cheap as chipboard.. and sound ****ing awesome..

pps.. still looking forward to the day i can find
a top yamaha acoustic well underpriced in a local charity shop..


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Subject: RE: Guitar sale/purchase predicament
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

Well, Gibson, the most expensive guitar I played was a Martin on sale in Hanks in Denmark Street for GBP 15,000. I didn't like it.

I've played some Martins I did like, I have not yet found a Breedlove I did like, seen a couple of Collings and Froggy Bottoms and Bourgeois I somewhat liked. I quite like many Gibsons, but none really go that extra mile. You need ears. So far I have a definite impression where yours are. I listen a lot better than I play!

Best acoustic guitar I ever played - William Pint's Goodall. I believe it was very costly.

Second best (to my amazement) a Fender custom shop one.

Third was the only Lowden I ever really liked, but that one was a belter.

Second rate? My stepdaughter (who runs a lot of shit for Intel) still winds up people like you up by calling you the colonies. When you get a history, get a life. Oh, and post your real name, as I do.


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