BS: Help! Buying a used car

Subject: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Pauline L
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:48 PM

I need to buy a used car and I need advice. I want something cheap but in good condition without a huge number of miles on it (impossible dream?). I started doing an online search on the Washington Post using these criteria: price, 6K max; mileage 50K max. I tried looking at Honda, Hyundai, and Toyota, and, to my surprise, found that such cars exist on the market. I know where to find the Blue Book value online, but where can I find descriptions and recommendations for the car? In the olden days, I used Consumer Reports. If the advertised price of a car is much less than the Blue Book price and/or the price of similar cars advertised, I become suspicious. Any comments?

My old car was a 1987 Chevy Nova, which was the same as a Toyota Corolla that year. I loved it and I'm still grieving for it. (It died in a crash and I almost did, too.) If I could, I'd buy the same car again, but without a carburetor and with airbags (in case of crash). Can somebody recommend makes and models of cars for me to look at?

I'd appreciate any advice you folks can give me.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:19 PM

Well I know that Japanese cars are taboo in certain parts of the US, but they do have the best reputation for build quality and reliability, I favour Toyota myself.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:32 PM

They had a recent discussion of this topic with a woman on Car Talk and suggested she buy a 2003 or 2004 used Ford Focus, though that is probably out of your price range (earlier than that had some mechanical problems you don't want to deal with).

Check Cars.com (there's also a link from the Car Talk page) for current information. This wasn't around in a big way last time I did research for a truck. I compared both new and used pickups using the pages at Edmunds.com. I was able to look at a lot of information comparing packages, prices, and recalls (or not) on used vehicles as well as compare features on new vehicles. I hear great things about Cars.com but can also personally recommend Edmunds, so good luck with your research!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:32 PM

What are YOUR personal criteria? 4 door, 4 wheel drive, cargo, etc? I LOVE my 96 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: NH Dave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

Pauline,

    You don't say where you are located, so it is hard to give you specific advice. I say this because up her in New England most people go by the NADA "blue book", which is yellow, rather than the Kelley actual blue book. I have always found Consumer Reports to be a good evaluator of many things, and coincidentally, their Annual just appeared in my local groceries.

    I personally prefer the Subaru vehicles. I have had good experiences with them over the past 25 years, and continue to buy them. In the past they had problems with body rust, which has been partially solved, although with the amount of salt we put on our roads, even a granite slab will show some corrosion. I also buy older models, and set my start point around $ 2500. Mileage is not a really big issue with me as I expect to put another 150k on the car before it becomes too expensive to run. I have local mechanics who specialize in Subarus, most of whom are factory trained wrench benders who worked for a Subaru agency that went under for one reason or other. They work inexpensively and inteligently, offering me advice on what they feel can be let go for a while without affecting the safety of the vehicle. This concentrates my repair dollar on the important things - I'm on a reduced budget too.

    I would suggest that you give the Maliozzi brothers, Click and Clack on Public Radio a call, or write them a letter with your concerns. You can also check out their (educated) feelings about various used cars by stopping by their web site, Car Talk and seeing what they think about the various vehicles out there. Lest you be put off by the somewhat raucus tone of their radio show, one of them is a graduate of MIT, and, I believe taught there for a while, and they used to operate a sort of rent-a-stall garage in Cambridge, "our fair city", where they provided space, advice, and a ready source of parts to people in need of car repairs.

    Dave      

Standard disclaimer applies

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

The "blue book" and other price guides are just that, suggestions--and as such, are meaningless, because every vehicle is different and each region of the country is different. You have to decide on what features you
1) must have
2) will not accept under no uncertain terms, and
3) would like to have but can live without.

Then look at the marketplace and to the regional data. With so many of these Car Max and Auto Nation sorts of places, you can find a decent used car these days, and you can do a search on each VIN to find out if the car has been in accidents, etc.

You can save a little money by buying directly from the original owner, and I've had good luck that way. But any purchase of a used vehicle can be a risk if you don't do your research.

Number one rule of car buying: Don't fall in love with the vehicle you're test driving, because you are no longer in a position to make an informed decision. Be a little stand-offish.

Good luck! You're doing the right thing--buying used cars is great for the pocketbook and great for the environment.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:26 PM

Don't be afraid of somewhat higher mileage. These day it seems all cars are lots more durable than before. Change your criteria to 85k miles and you will certainly get a lower asking price.
But - for a used car with even 1 mile on it, be sure to have it checked by a reputable mechanic beore your put your money down,

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:57 PM

One word:   Toyota

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:39 PM

I'm a recent convert to Toyota, but have owned a half-dozen used Datsun/Nissans and was happy with all of them. I would feel equally confident about owning a Honda or Suburu as well.

American cars are no longer as inferior to the Japanese as they once were, and many brands are now "world cars" anyway, with subsystems manufacturerd in different spots around the globe. However, I still feel that the leading Japanese nameplates can still be trusted to identify the most risk-free used cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:41 PM

I have over 160,000 on my '94 Corolla station wagon and it still runs like a little tiger.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Gypsy
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:20 PM

After much research, the current band-wagon is a Honda Odyssey, 1997. After my research, i put out a search to the dealers within a hundred mile radius. Was the easiest car shopping i ever did. Got a call from 60 miles away, and they had my car. To the T, regarding mileage, price, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Mudlark
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

Haha, Amos...I've got nearly 300K on my 88 Toyota Camry st. wagon, and IT still runs like a tiger! Some of the power stuff is beginning to go, but the engine is still strong...needs a little extra oil now and then, but aside from that is a great road car. I bought my first used Toyota, a Corona station wagon, in 1973, and never looked back. I've loved all my Toyotas, they've never stranded me at the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, get good milage, even the station wagons, are the most ergonomically sensible cars I've ever used. I've got a little 88 Toy. truck I love, too. Mileage not quite as good as the Camry, but it runs fine on regular, whereas the Camry does better with med. grade. gas.

I'll be looking for another used car, probably next year, and the only other make I'd even consider is Subaru. What I'd like to try is a Prius (but those cute Cooper minis are pretty tempting too).

Good luck on your quest. If you buy from a private party, try to get a gut feel for the seller, as well as the car, and take it to a trusted mechanic, if you're really interested, just to make sure there's nothing obviously wrong with it. It's been my experience that there is always SOMEthing wrong w/a used car....you just need to make sure it's not too serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:49 PM

Yeah, Toyota... But keep inmind that the Geo Prizm is a Toyota Corolla and can be purchased for less than the exact car with the Toyota badge...

Cars to avoid in that price range: Saturns, Hyndais, Mazdas, all the cars made by the Big Three (Gm, Ford and Chrysler), Nissans. Mitsubishis, Volvos, Audis and most Volkswagens...

So that leaves Hondas and Toyotas and Geos (Prisms only)...

Good luck and be sure to ahve a pre purchase inspection conducted by a mechanic you trust...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:05 PM

Only one piece of advice is universally applicable. Save the life of a skilled mechanic. Ask them to select your car. Nothing else works as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:06 PM

I have a Toyota Tundra, my wife has a Toyota Avalon, I have 2 daughters with Toyots Avalons, My son has a Camry and a Toyota SIenna. I had 4 other Toyotas before. I cannot say enough about them as cars. 100,000 miles and they are still good as new. I live in Georgia,and Japanese cars easily outnumber others it seems to me. Maybe in Detroit it isn't a good idea, but basically they are more than accepted in US

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:23 PM

I rent the garage to an Aussie mechanic.

He likes Toyotas because they are easy to repair and never die.

I like Honda civic hatchbacks because they look cooler. He says they are the next best.

He says never buy a Ford or any other American car.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:35 PM

I didn't mention the check by a trusted mechanic because it almost goes without saying, but I'm glad to see several have mentioned it. I have a great mechanic, a guy who runs a little one-bay shop, so sometimes you have to wait a couple of days (or depending on the repair, if it isn't real urgent, a couple of weeks). I tangled several times with the Ford folks back when I had an Explorer, and ended up twice getting full refunds for the supposed work they did but in fact just fabricated. After the second time I never went back. A good mechanic is worth his weight in gold, especially if is he willing to take the time to explain the problem and help you resolve it with logic as well as a good repair.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:11 PM

I wouldn't even consider a used car without running it through the cars.com check which costs about $15. YOu have to have the VIN number, but it has saved us from buying real lemons and reaffirmed our gut feelings about a couple of really good cars. It is WELL WORTH the extra expense, and almsot as good as a well-trusted mechanic, IMO. Anyone who is not trying to pull a fast one will not mind giving you the VIN number for checking. If they hem and haw about it, don't buy from them!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

Actually, Hyundai is a very good buy these days.Seriously under rated. My daughter had a Kia and loved it. A good friend has had three Hyundais and every one was a good solid car. I'd buy one in a New York minute. In fact, I'm looking for a good Sonata right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Gypsy
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:40 PM

I'll second Katlaughing.....we did the cars.com check on cars before selling them, as well, to give to prospective buyers. And did the check on the car we bought. It is quite useful, altho there can and will be gaps. Any damage repaired by a shop that DOESN'T subscribe to the program, will not show up on the report from cars.com. So use that, and your trusty mechanic (i sleep with mine, so a little easier for me) twixt the two, you should be okay

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:51 AM

Gypsy, the question of regular servicing springs unbidden to my lips;~)
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:34 AM

Hey, buying a car is ALWAYS a crapshoot so.......Did you know that the names are often acronyms and not just car names? Maybe this will help you make your decision!!

*********************************************************************

ACURA - Always Catching Up, Rarely Ahead...Always Causes Unexpected Rectal Analysis
AUDI - Accelerates Under Demonic Influences
BMW - Brutal Money Waster, Bought My Wife
BUICK - Big Ugly Indestructible Car Killer
CADILLAC - Crazy Aunt Drives It Like A Lunatic Across the Country
CAMARO - Can't America Make A Real One?
CHEVROLET - Constantly Having Every Vehicle Recalled Over Lousy Engineering Techniques
CHRYSLER - Company Has Recommended You Start Learning Engine Repair
CITROEN - Crap Interior Terrible Road-holding Owned Entirely by Nutters
CORVETTE - Cracks Often, Rattles Violently, Eventually Turns To Excrement
DODGE - Dear Old Dad's Garage Experiment, Drips Oil Drops Grease Everywhere
EDSEL - Every Day Something Else Leaks
FERRARI - Ferrari Engines Routinely Require Another Rebuild Immediately
FIAT - Fix It Again Tony!
FORD - Fumes and Odors Readily Detectable, Found On Road Dead, Fix Or Repair Daily
GEO - Grotesque Engineering Outdated
GM - Generally Mediocre
GMC - Gotta' Mechanic Coming
GTO - Get Tickets Often!
HONDA - Had One Never Did Again
HYUNDAI - Hope You Understand Nothing's Driveable And Inexpensive
IROC - It's Really Only a Camaro
JAGUAR - Jags Always Guarantee Unlimited Astronomical Repairs
JEEP - Just Eats Every Part, Jumble of Everyone's Extra Parts
KIA - Korean Idiot Attractor
LTD - Long Term Debt
MAZDA - Most Always Zipping Dangerously Along
MG - Money Grabber, Might Go
MOPAR - My Only Problems Are Repairs
MUSTANG - Motor Under Strain, Transmission Almost No Good
OLDSMOBILE - Overpriced Leisurely Driven Sedan Made Of Buick's Leftover Equipment
PINTO - Pyrotechnics Is Naturally The Object
PONTIAC - Poor Old Nitwit Thinks It's A Cadillac
PORSCHE - Proof Of Rich Spoiled Children Having Everything
SAAB - Sad Attempt At Beauty, Swedish Automobiles Always Breakdown
SATURN - Sorry About That Unexpected Recall Notice
TOYOTA - The One You Ought To Avoid
TRIUMPH - This Really Is Unreliable Man, Please Help!
VOLVO - Very Odd Looking Vehicular Object
VW - Virtually Worthless
YUGO - You're Usually Getting Overtaken

Spaw
_________________

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

I don't know if they exist in the USA - but so long as you buy one under about 8 years old, in the UK you cannot beat a Skoda for value - Volkswagen engineering without the price. On my third. I used to be a maniac DIY mechanic as a kid (non-standard engine transplants on Fiats and Morris Minors a speciality) and do my own check-overs.   If you want to be wholly meshuggah, check out the Octavia VRI 180bhp 2 litre turbo hatches and estates now being much used by our police.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Scoville
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

I think it depends partly on how used it is, and to a certain extent you have to judge that on a car by car basis. My first car was a 1986 Nissan, but it ran great because it had been owned by my grandmother and then by my parents and had always been well-maintained and respectfully driven. My current car is a Pontiac Vibe, which is simply a Corolla with a different body. I'd buy either a Toyota or a Nissan again without hesitation. My father generally thinks I should avoid used American cars and Volkswagens (although he has a 1996 Ford Contour--Mondeo in the UK--that hasn't given us too much trouble except the vent/blower system is crap).

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:45 PM

I must agree (cough, cough) with Martin Gibson about Toyota. The bad news is that replacement parts are expensive, but the good is that you seldome have to replace any.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Pauline L
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:34 PM

Thanks, everyone. There seems to be consensus on Toyota, so I'll start looking there. However, I'd be happy to get more advice on the subject.

People keep talking about a "trusted mechanic." Is there such a thing? I've been to numerous mechanics, generally recommended by friends, and never found one I could trust. Any suggestions?

Here is a very important question. I had one really bad experience buying a used car, and I don't want it to happen again. I bought a used car from a reputable dealer. Of course, I had it checked by a mechanic before I bought it. After I bought it, while it was still on warranty, I was driving it and the brakes went soft. I know this is dangerous, so I brought it back to the dealer to repair. After it was "repaired," the brakes went soft again. Again, I brought it back to the dealer. This time I told them that if you just drive the car around the block, you won't notice the problem. You have to drive it for a while. They "repaired" it again and the brakes went soft again. I got into the right hand lane, drove slowly, and kept a good stopping distance away from the car in front of me, but to no avail. The brakes failed; my car collided with the car infront of me; and my car was totalled. The good news is that, unlike my experience in my previous accident, I walked away. It was the airbag that made the difference, and I must have airbags in any car I drive. (I'm beginning to get a stomach ache as I write about this.) My insurance didn't cover the damage. I spoke to several lawyers, one of whom specialized in car liability, and they all told me that I didn't have a case because I couldn't prove that the accident was caused by brake failure. There went $8000 less than 30 days after I bought the car, while it was still on warranty. I haven't bought a car since then. How can I avoid having this happen again?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Gypsy
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:35 PM

Giok.........and twice on sundays! ;>O

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Grab
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

MarkS and others are right that cars these days are much more mechanically reliable at high mileages. But note *mechanically*. The interiors are just as prone to squeaks, rattles, clunks, bits falling off or getting broken or just generally wearing out. So your 15-year-old car may go like a little tiger, but noise-wise it'll be going like a little Tiger Tank. ;-) Unless you've spent some serious time keeping it fixed up, of course.

Whatever you get second-hand, make sure you get a "major service" done and have everything replaceable replaced, unless it's low mileage (like less than 30k). Cam belt is the biggy, but all the other bits and pieces (spark plugs and leads, dizzy cap and rotor arm, alternator belt, brake pads, etc) are worth getting done too.

Pauline, the best way of getting a reliable mechanic is to stay right away from dealers! In the UK, the Consumers' Association found that dealers are generally worse than other mechanics, but still charge more - generally smaller garages give better service. And as you found, the myth that a dealer gives you a guaranteed quality of service is no damn good if the car breaks seriously. I've always bought privately, but I'm reasonably competent with a spanner so I trust my own judgement. In the UK you can pay one of the breakdown services (AA/RAC/whoever) to get someone out to check the car over, so if you're not sure yourself then this is worth a go. At least then you should get an honest opinion from someone who isn't trying to sell you something. Or find a friend who knows about cars.

As for your liability thing, I don't know how the US legal system works, but in the UK we can go to the Small Claims Court if we're looking for less than £5k compensation. Very little cost, no lawyers needed (and if the other side hires one then you don't have to pay the other side's costs), both sides present their case, and the judge decides. Do you not have anything similar in the US?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Pauline L
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:51 PM

Graham, I'm not sure how the UK experience translates to the Maryland, USA experience. It's different on liability. Can anyone tell me whether we have something like "breakdown services (AA/RAC/whoever)" to check the car over (See Graham's post)? I call AAA when my car breaks down, but I don't think they check the car for things that need repair. I'd love to find someone reliable to do that.

I plan to have a friend who knows morer about cars than I take a look at any car before I buy it. Any volunteers?

Pauline

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving. I'm thankful that I have Mudcatters to give me good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Pauline L
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:32 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

I know it's been said before, but I love to say it again. Toyota. I've had Coronas, pickups, and just got done driving a Camry across the US. They are made by people who love cars. They are cost effective, because the money you put up extra in buying one you will make up in lack of expenses and in resale.

The comment about parts of America where they don't like Japanese cars is bullsh*t. People recognize quality. Maybe in Ford Motors parking lot you'd have a problem, but if you got chased by a bunch of people in Fords you'd outlast 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 09:53 PM

Puline L - As I mentioned before, I rent my garage (and basement) to a mechanic. This has been his base of operation for over twenty years. He has a very steady clientele so I think he is a good mechanic.

Here's a list of the kind of service he offers:

1. Before he begins, he will show you exactly what he's going to do.
2. He will give you a fair estimate.
3. If problems occur that will increase the cost, he will call you.
4. He will fix the little things without even mentioning it.
5. When you 'drop off' the car he will drive you to work.
6. He will pick you up from work.
7. He will be fiendly and courteous.
8. He will charge you a fair amount and hope that you tip him.

Sounds like what you need is a 'used car broker'. I don't have time to shop around for a used auto so I use a broker. He finds the car I want and I deposit a check for the amount I want to pay + 10%. He checks it out, mechanically and gives me a call with the details. If it is agreeable, he buys it for me.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

Dianavan, your auto mechanic must be one of a kind. Where do you live? Anywhere close to me (Md suburb of DC)?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:29 PM

I live in Vancouver, B.C.

Oddly enough, I sold my car a couple of years ago and I'm now committed to walking and using public transit. Go figure!


d

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:50 AM

I spoke to several lawyers, one of whom specialized in car liability, and they all told me that I didn't have a case because I couldn't prove that the accident was caused by brake failure.

Can anyone else prove it was caused by something else? Lawyers are NOT judges, lawyers work to earn a fee, often from a settlement. Because they aren't convinced absolutely they can win they won't take it. You need to find out what the possibilities are for attorneys who work for hourly fees. Is the car still around? You can have the brakes examined by experts, and if you can document your trips into the shop for supposed repairs (sounds like they didn't touch it), you probably DO have a case.

The other option is to forget the insurance and sue the dealer. You made a good faith effort to have this problem repaired, you didn't neglect it. You bought a car that was a lemon, and an accident was the result of neglect or disinterest on the part of the dealer. So sue the dealer and get your cash back that way.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 08:31 AM

Mazdas are even more reliable than Toyotas, and that's saying something!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! Buying a used car
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:43 PM

Can't say about USA but in UK you would have been entitled to reject the car, if you played your cards right.

The only time to go third party fire and theft instead of comprehensive on car insurance is when the differential cost exceeds the value of the car.

Put your story about the car on handbills. Hand them out outside the car dealers until they offer you your money back to go away (check with a US lawyer first).

I am suspicious of your legal advice so far.