Songs you thought were trad

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:51 PM

Tom Paxton tells a wonderful story about being in a Scottish pub once and hearing a patron say how he will now sing an old traditonal song of Scotland---turns out it was one of Paxton's.   He mentioned it and the man told him that--",....it comes from a long heritage of music here".   My memory is fogged on the song---it may have been Ramblin' Boy or Bottle of Wine.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: darkriver
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM

Happy Birthday.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:34 PM

"For He's A Jolly Good Fellow".

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: pdq
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:38 PM

Many people are surprised that "Hey Nelly Nelly" and "In The Hills of Shiloh" are both Shel Silverstein origionals.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:52 PM

The Strawberry Roan, written abt 1913 by Curley Fletcher
Wild Rose of the Mountain, Si Kahn.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:21 PM

All this doesn't reallyt matter- for me +fiends, 'Trad folksongs' are the ones EVERYBODY knows- NOT JUSTthe fokies!

Hey Jude, Rockin all over the world, Grandfather's Clock, Only U etc

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:56 PM

G'day Splott Man:

"Wild Mountain Thyme fooled me at first (Rod Stewart made the same mistake when he recorded it)"

This raises another aspect of the Trad - Composed ( - Arranged - 'Family Version') gradient. I know that the McPeake's have sensibly hung onto the copyright of their Belfast family version ... but the song is two centuries of folk transmission and editing-down from Robert Tannahill's song The Braes of Balquither.

Somewhere, way back in the Bush Music Club's Archives (circa 1974 ... ?), I published Tannahill's words against Wild Mountain Thyme and there is a lot of the original still there in the "modern" song. I would describe it as "Trad> - arranged Jimmy McPeake ... and family"!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM

G'day again,

On reflection, maybe that should be:


"Tannahill / trad. / McPeake family / Jimmy McPeake (arr.) / ? ..."

Regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Celtaddict
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:05 PM

I have been told that when Si Kahn's son was visiting in Northern Ireland, he and a companion passed a pub and heard Si's song "Aragon Mill" being sung, and when Kahn asked about it, he was told it was a traditional song of Northern Ireland called "Belfast Mill."
I have also heard Dick Holdstock and Alan MacLeod tell of singing "Molly, Come Fare Away" in a very nice country-inn type restaurant, somewhere in the southern mountains, and having a woman who had dined there come up to them and say, "I never heard that song sound like that." Alan says she mentioned the Scot accent and he said something to the effect that it is a Scottish song so of course it sounds Scottish, and the woman said something about it just sounded odd to her. He then realized he actually knew little about the song, so asked the woman what she knew about the song. She said, "I wrote it." It is a great story; Jean (kytrad), is it true?
Dougie MacLean's song "Caledonia" was taken for traditional by the big corporation that used it in their advertising, who then were required by law (and a suit?) to pay him handsomely for it.
For a writer of tradition-based songs, to have your own work be taken for traditional, as in old, must be the ultimate compliment/validation, though not particularly helpful economically.
There is substantial slippery-slope potential here, though. Might calling something "traditional" be a way to avoid giving credit or royalty? And the point is well taken about songs "becoming" traditional. We know the source of, for example, lines in Shakespeare's plays, but some of these have certainly become traditional English-language expressions. Many songs of the 20th century (many mentioned above) have writers still known but have clearly entered "The Tradition." I have heard it said (by Rick Fielding and others) that a song becomes traditional when we no longer remember who wrote it, which of course means some singers make songs traditional faster than others...

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Celtaddict
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:07 PM

It is also possible that some songs we think of as being clearly commercial and "pop" are well on the way to traditional. "Mingulay Boat Song" and "Roseville Fair" were initially more tradition based. But will our grandchildren add to this list "Country Roads" or "The Boxer" or "Ripple" as ones they consider traditional?

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:12 AM

The Spilman Flow Gently Sweet Afton, for a tune.

Silver threads and golden needles text.

And Bennington Rifles (text and tune, I wouldn't have thought they were necessarily anonymous, but I sure thought they were older than they turned out to be).

Haruo

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 12:12 AM

G'day aagin,

Just to expand on my pontifications on The Wild Mountan Thyme: I was chasing The Braes of Balquhidder (apprently the correct Scots spelling) and ended up on The Fiddler's Companion web site: The Fiddler's Companion: BRAB - BRAM and found this:

"The song "Wild Mountain Thyme" is derived from "Braes of Balquidder," as is "Will You Go, Lassie, Go" reworked by Frank McPeake of Belfast. When the melody was employed in an advertisement for Irish television the McPeakes threatened legal action for coypright infringement. After some public discussion in the press, followed by a bit of research, the conclusion was that the McPeakes did not compose either the words or the music. The threat of a suit never materialised and the matter was quickly forgotten, according to Harry O'Prey."

I guess that, sometimes, the distinctions come very close to being decided at law!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:08 AM

The previous posting highlights another problem in deciding if a song is traditional or not. Many traditional songs have been "arranged" by various artists, and then copyrighted under their own name. A good example of this is "Scarborough Fair" which Paul Simon claims, but which he originally got from Martin Carthy singing a traditional version.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Mark Ross
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:53 PM

Once at a conference on mining, an old man sang a song he said was traditional. It was THE GREEN ROLLING HILLS OF WEST VIRGINIA, written of course, by Utah Phillips. Utah was there sitting with Archie Green, the noted labor historian, folklorist, and ethnoproctologist. Archie said to Utah, after the song ended, "C'mon, let me introduce you as the author." Utah declined, feeling that this was the highest compliment he could paid as a songwriter.
Like I've said for years, The Folk, in the short run, have no taste; in the long run, their taste is impeccable!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 09:23 PM

I've been following this thread closly. The ONLY thing I can add of merit is: "I've now got a headache!" CHEERS, Bob(deckmanNelson

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 09:52 PM

Leadfingers, according to Roy Palmer in his book 'Poverty Knock' (Cambridge Uni Press 1974), 'Poverty Knock' is traditional. He says that the version he gives in the book was sung 'by an old Batley weaver, Tom Daniel, who first heard it in the early 1900s'. [Palmer p 15].

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: pavane
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:53 AM

A few more notes

Many of Ewan McColl's songs are often mistaken for traditional - just shows his mastery of the idiom.

Happy Birthday to You is NOT traditional, it is still in copyright

My Johnny was a Shoemaker - composed in America c1860, author known.

Wild Mountain Thyme/Braes o'Balquhither (I think that's the original spelling) by Robert Tannahill c1790's

Danny Boy - words written 1911 by an ENGLISH lyricist

In fact, versions of the majority of 'folk' songs can be found on printed broadsides from the 1800's or earlier (some as long ago as the 1600's). That doesn't mean that they are NOT traditional, but sometimes the author is given. For example, the author of the original of Wild Rover (in the 1670's, I think) is known.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Boab
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:58 AM

I was fooled fairly recently by "Deeper Well" It was written less than twen years back, I believe.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Boab
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:00 AM

---AND THAT "TWEN" IS MEANT TO BE "TEN" --NOT A SHORT "TWENTY"! Ooops---sorry about the shouting----

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:47 AM

"Women of Ireland", which I've even seen listed in publications as Trad. Irish but was in fact written by Sean O'Riada, who died in the late 60s.

"Shoals of Herring" and "I'm A Freeborn Man" by Ewan MacColl

"She Moved Through The Fair" (at least the words), though the author's name has drifted out of my mind unfortunately. Padraic Colum???

"Fields of Athenry" was written by a Dubliner known as Pete St. John though I understand that is not his real name.

"The Ladies Go Dancing At Whitsun" was written by Shirley Collins' first husband, John(?) Austin, to the tune of the Coppers' version of The Week Before Easter (or "A Week Before Easter" as they called it). They all lived not too far from each other in Sussex, which is probably where John first heard the air.

Non-British Catters may not realise that the dancing in question was not social dancing, and the ladies weren't simply doing it for amusement. They were preserving a spring tradition, customarily carried out by the men, which they didn't want to see die out. Unfortunately, the men were busy dying themselves, in the Great War. So none of them was left to dance. Instead it's their names which now stand beside the May pole in a fine roll of honour.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:08 AM

I'm glad someone's mentioned Shoals of Herring. There's a semi-academic book about sea songs and shanties by an American author and it includes Shoals of Herring. He proudly announces that he'd collected it somewhere in Ireland (Dingle, I think) and that it was a typical Irish song. I've also heard that some people in Ireland think it is Irish and that it's called 'Shores of Erin.'

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Crystal
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:16 AM

I thought "Shores of Erin" was a totally different song with a similar tune!

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

Perhaps you are thinking of "The Shaws of Erring", a song about a Kentucky family who made a lot of mistakes.

Or possibly "The Shored-up Hearing", about a deaf Tasmanian folk singer.

Or "The Sawn-off Earring" ... self-explanatory, I would think ...

By the way, I believe "Fields of Athenry" (Pete St John) was written in the 1970's (1977?).

Shimbo

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:39 PM

I haven't checked this thread in awhile, so just saw Celtaddict's story about Holdstock & MacLeod. As I remember, they were singing, "Come Far Away," and I had to correct them,- "Come Fare Away," and tell them the girl's name was originally Marnie, not Mollie. Yes, I got around to publishing it (again in CELEBRATION OF LIFE)in 1971. It was inspired by many of our young friends becoming Canadians during the war in Viet Nam- the song harks back to all the tragic reasons, all down the years, causing young folks to leave their homes and seek new lands. The full title is, "Come Fare Away With Me."

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:30 AM

I understand that when Gordon Bok went to record "Harbors of Home" (Joan Sprung's song), he assumed it was trad, from a little fishing village somewhere Down East. I think that some songs that are not trad sound "trad enough" because they incorporate the sensibilities of the folk whom we assume are "the tradition bearers," and non-trad-sounding songs are that because they don't incorporate these sensibilities.

I try to write songs "in the tradition," in that I try to keep tune and words in line with what I know about traditional song (not always easy as it sounds, I can tell you). One of mine that a few people have suggested sounds traditional is "Sea Wing," about a fatal paddle-steamer outing on the Mississippi. I don't think it sounds at all traditional, because it starts in the first person and sounds like a Bill Staines song for one or two verses, then switches to ballad narrative style and ends up sounding more traditional. Now, I know there are traditional ballads in the first person (most of Prof. Child's choice notwithstanding), but these tend to be murderers' good-nights (Captain Kidd, for example) or western songs (Texas Rangers), and sentimental opening lines not like mine.

But you see how my analysis of my own lyric works. I assume it's NOT traditional because of the first-person opening stanza.

(Here's that stanza:
Come with me, love, and we will take
A pleasant summer day's trip on the lake.
The steamboat is ready, and there'll be a band
A July Sunday so warm and so grand.)

I use my knowledge of typical traditional song (ballads in this case) to decide whether this sounds traditional. "Darcy Farrow," for example, sounds much more traditional in form, because the writers used what they'd learned about the forms of folksong in America to write a new "old song."

So it's sometimes hard to tell a real trad song from a new one, if the form is right.

But the sensibility of the song, the lyric, must be right, too, or it goes down as a fake right away. I wrote a song about a local graffiti artist using "Wabash Cannonball" as the tune, and, despite a trad tune, it would never pass muster as a trad song -- the comments and viewpoint are too modern, too urban, for it to work.

So sensibility is the key.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Pat Cooksey
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 06:16 AM

In the early seventies I wrote a song in the traditional style
called The Bold Knight and gave it to Sean Cannon, who began to
sing it at folk clubs, at one gig in London, might have been the
singers club, I can't remember, both Ewan McColl and Bert Lloyd
were in attendance and both agreed this was an old border ballad,
the song was about eight weeks old at this time, which proves
even the greats can be wrong.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Tradsinger
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:20 PM

This is a very interesting thread and could easily have degenerated into the "what is folksong?" argument. Thankfully it didn't!

I'm going to throw in a couple of contributions.

Firstly I remember reading about a folk singing competition for young people many years ago: the winner of the tradition section won with a rendering of "Blowing in the Wind" and the winner of the modern section with a rendering of "Scarborough Fair". True apparently.

Now I'm going to toss a googly into the argument (For American readers a googly is a delivery in cricket that looks like it's going to spin one way but then spins the other - hence a trick, a trap, etc). I'm going for the purpose of the argument use "of known authorship" and of "of unknown authorship" as my definition of untraditional/traditional, (at least for this posting). The bombshell is that HOUSE CARPENTER is NOT traditional. According to the English folk music scholar David Atkinson, in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society 1989, the song that we know as the House Carpenter was published in 1656 as a broadside entitled "A Warning to Married Women" and allegedly written by one Laurence Price. Known authorship, hence not traditional! Now it's quite possible that Mr Price wrote it from a tradition story, but it just goes to show how grey the area is between traditional and non-traditional.

Songs often taken here (UK) as traditional include Grandfather's Clock, The Scarlet and the Blue, Mistletoe Bough, Drink up thee zider, Danny Boy (words that is, as the tune is trad) and probably many more that I could think of, all of which have known authors.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: emjay
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:20 AM

Splottman, in an earlier post, wrote that John Tams wrote Rolling Home. How old is John Tams? I have that song on a Burl Ives Lp that belonged to my mother who died in 1960. Or is there a different Rolling Home? And John Tams might be that old. (That would be almost as old as I am.)
MJ

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 04:49 AM

I was wondering if there were two "Rolling Home"s too. Splott Man and Scoville, what is the first line of yours (if they're the same)? Are you referring the one which starts "Round goes the wheel of fortune"? And if not, does anyone know who wrote that?

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: breezy
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:33 AM

'English Ale' by Harvey Andrews


It goes to prove that the 'tradition' is alive.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

Celtaddict, what evidence do you have that Tennants Breweries used "Caledonia " in their ad campaign without Dougie MacLean's prior permission ?

I have never heard the faintest whisper that there was any dispute whatsoever.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Little Robyn
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:35 PM

Round goes the wheel of fortune, is by John Tams.
The other one is a sea shanty with several versions -
Rolling home, rolling home, rolling home across the sea,
Rolling home to dear old England (Caledonia, Dear old Ireland, etc.)
Rolling home dear land to thee.
From the pictures of John, I'd guess he was late 50s, early 60s.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM

Thereabouts, I think. He wrote Rolling Home in the mid 1980s so far as I know. The other one was written by Charles MacKay in 1858; quickly taken up by sailors, it has been found localised to any number of places. Tommy Makem seems to have written a song with the same title, and there are others too. The possibilities for confusion are endless (see various past discussions here).

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:31 PM

Tradsinger ... I thank you for your thoughtful post. You have brought me up by the short hairs, as they say, with your comments. The point you raise, if I am correct, is that the song ONLY becomes "traditional" when the song writer is unkown. Here we go again with Mr. and Mrs. Anonymous.

I'm quite unhappy, in that you have probably forced me to re-think my assumptions!

I HATE that. GEEZE, I'm getting old enough that I've got all my delemma's understood: what time is it; did I take my pill? Now you're suggesting that just because we DO know the composer of the "House Carpenter," written all those years ago, I can NO LONGER call it a traditional ballad.

I hope you realize that I speak in half jest ... but only HALF JEST! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:03 PM

I think Gwilym's point was that anonymity is no longer a relevant criterion in deciding whether or not a song can reasonably be considered "traditional". What matters is what has happened to it since it was made, regardless of whether or not we know who first made it or first put it into a form of which we have a record (and we are learning, or rather re-discovering, information of that sort all the time).

That doesn't happen in ten minutes, of course, and recently-composed songs that have circulated widely occupy a grey area: how far do they circulate entirely independently of "fixed" references such as sound recordings or printed music, for example? A subject for a separate discussion, perhaps; as is the clear influence of printed sources on a great many songs "found in tradition". The sacred cow of the "folk process", invoked by so many to justify all manner of things, is a lot more complex than many appreciate.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM

GEEZE!!! I've got a headache! Won't one of you puleeeze just tell me what to think so that I don't have too! (BG). Actually, I'm enjoying having my internal brain marbles tossed around a bit. Thanks everyone, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Melani
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:19 PM

I guess I would consider a song traditional if the author is unknown, or maybe if it's old enough for the "copyright" to have expired a couple of hndred years ago, like "The House Carpenter" mentioned above.

It's often true for me that a song like "Barrett's Privateers" has something about it that doesn't sound quite right for a truly traditional song, though I can't exactly put my finger on it. Too smooth, or something. On the other hand, Archie Fisher's "Witch of the Westmorland" is about as perfect a fake as ever I heard--no niggling "what's wrong with this picture" feeling about that one.

John Connolly's "Fiddler's Green" is a fine example of another perfect "traditional" style song, as was mentioned above. Chanteyranger, Bill R and I were vastly amused to hear it played on a squeezebox in a pub scene in a movie set during the American Civil War. The same movie used Gordon Bok's "Clear Away in the Morning" as a major and meaningful theme in the story, with an Irish character claiming his mother had sung it to him when he was a child. The fact that the producers apparently thought "Fiddler's Green" was traditional was highlighted by the fact that Gordon Bok was listed in the movie credits, but John Connolly was not.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Stephen R.
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:18 AM

Bonnie is right, of course, that the words of 'She Moved through the Fair' are by Padraic Colum, but it is also worth mentioning that they are based in part on a traditional song, 'Out the Window'. I think the same is true of 'Down in the Sally Gardens'--a poem by Yeats, to be sure, but based on an old broadside song, 'You Rambling Boys of Pleasure', and sung to a traditional tune, 'An Traigh Mughdhorna'--'The Maids of Mourne'. I believe that Herbert Hughes is responsible for wedding both the Colum and the Yeats word sets to traditional tunes.

I think Gordon Lightfoot's 'Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald' is often taken for a trad. song. Then, let's see, there's 'The Rose of Tralee'; there are a number of Russian songs often wrongly called traditional (Stenka Razin--you know, 'Volga, Volga, mati Volga, Volga, Russkaia reka'), Kudiyar (about the bandit who becomes a monk), even 'Odnozvuchno gremit kolokolchik'--what's it called in English?--record jackets have been a big source of misinformation of this sort. CD inserts are too, but they are less guilty because there is usually less information, hence less opportunity to get it wrong.

Stephen

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Stephen R.
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:27 AM

PS--playing leapfrog with this thread in one entitled LYR/TUNE ADD: Dark Eyes. There you will find a typical cafe song described as 'Gypsy/Klezmer' but also as a folk song. If that's a traditional Russian song, I'll eat my kalpak.

Stephen

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: celticblues5
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:24 PM

What a great thread! I've learned a lot - thanks! In addition to several mentioned above, I'd have to add

Massacre of Glencoe
Worker's Song
Love & Freedom

There are likely many more.
What a great tribute to the skills of the authors that the songs have such a comfortable feel to them.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: celticblues5
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:25 PM

Oops! Knew I'd think of more - and Bonnie's "Billy Riley," of course!

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:52 PM

What Caledonia are we talking about...the one that Norma Waterson sings is tradition from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Is there another song called Caledonia ?

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

'Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald' uses just half of an old tune anyway...

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 10:37 PM

Annals of cluelessness: I was shocked, at the age of 20, to discover that "Old Man River" was a show tune.

I was not shocked, at twice that age or so, to discover that "Rozhenkes mit Mandlen" was a show tune.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:12 AM

Is that the same Pete Jennings? If so, hello from Olly and me...

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:29 AM

The Dark Island was written by Alan Bell.

Fiddlers' Green, by John Connolly, was massacred by this American shanty singer under the impression that it was traditional (sorry, can't remember his name - he did a hilariously bad album called Songs In The Key Of Sea).

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:06 AM

How about dance tunes? I'm a musician with the Welsh Folk Dance Society; We usually play "Lord Of Caernarvon's Jig" (which is not a jig at all but a good, solid, major-key tune in four/four time) and segue into this stonking, marvellous, minor-key tune which I (and a good many other musos) thought was traditional. It's not - I can reveal that Olly Price the fiddler (no relation) wrote it. She named it "Lady Caernarvon's Pig". So now you know...

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Tradsinger
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:03 PM

Dear Deckman,

Sorry to have caused you so much internal turmoil. Just for the record, I do regard House Carpenter as traditional, but I just wanted to make the point that the distinction between 'traditional' and 'composed' can be very blurred, and to get people thinking a little beyond the obvious. I'll give you another example - those of my era will remember the song 'Portland Town', undoubtedly composed by Derrol Adams and yet within a short time various versions of it were circulating amongst the folk community (in the 60s - showing my age). So the song passed from being a composition to one undergoing the folk process and in a way common property. Does that mean it's now a traditional song? I've been singing folksongs for 40 years and I'm buggered if I know the answer. Just enjoy the singing and the songs.

All the best

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Dani
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM

Raise your hand if you thought "Edelweiss" was a traditional tune/song. You don't have to admit WHEN you discovered it wasn't.

Dani

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:03 PM

Not everyone realizes this, but sometimes a singer in the tradition believes that he/she has written a song- for various reasons I would guess- problems of memory, with aging; having added verses and filled in gaps on his/her own over the years; never having heard another variant of the song, so thinking that it exists only in his/her family and was composed by the family ancestors- whatever. There is a highly respected and beloved trad singer who lived near our part of Kentucky who honestly believed that he wrote the ballad, "Jack Went Sailing," or, "Jackaro." In families around his, the song was sung long before he was born, so it isn't really true, but no one ever fought with him about it- didn't want to hurt his feelings.