Songs you thought were trad

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Allan S
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 07:26 PM

Some time after 1965 I bought the Dover volumes of the Child Ballads Took the tune from one version and mixed the verses from 2 others of Geordie. I would sing it at the Yale Hoots. one night Logan English asked if I would mind if he could steal my Geordie. Why not. Years later I noticed that the liner notes of a Joan Baez had Geordie with the statement " I learned this one from Logan English" Oh well so much for my 5 minutes of fame

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:51 PM

"Braes of Balquhidder" predates Tannahill by decades.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=10357#156655

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:13 PM

G'day weelittledrummer,

If you are including The Wild Colonial Boy in "Songs you thought were trad" ... I would have to ask how much more "trad" you ask of a song descended from a verse surreptitiously written on a stolen piece of paper by an Irish convict ... himself noting down the convict stories, of escapee/bushranger Jack Donahoe, that were already old when he was transported to Australia, in the 1830s.

A lot of things that were blatantly commercial may have happened to the song, starting a century or so, later ... but its pedigree seems rock-solid trad.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 04:32 AM

personally I would think the Al Jolson songbook is far more deeply embedded in people's consciousness than most of this stuff.

You are my sunshine
music hall stuff - I'm forever blowing bubbles
The wild colonial boy

Suddenly I feel like Sid James at Hancock's poetry society! Perhaps I'm the wrong shaped 'folk'.

hic haec hoc!

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 01:40 AM

>>
Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Celtaddict - PM
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:07 PM

It is also possible that some songs we think of as being clearly commercial and "pop" are well on the way to traditional. "Mingulay Boat Song" and "Roseville Fair" were initially more tradition based. But will our grandchildren add to this list "Country Roads" or "The Boxer" or "Ripple" as ones they consider tradition<<<

It's aready happening. I am from a large family that has three sets of cousins - those born bewteen 1957 and 1967, those born 1968 to 1977 and those born after that. My youngest cousins truly do believe the Boxer is a hundred years old and that Ripple is an Trad hymn. I'm in the first group by the way.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Highlandman
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:55 PM

>"Braes of Balquidder" polished by the McPeake family...
So I'm on morally defensible ground if I stick to the Tannahill words, or "polish" 'em meself, but what about the air? Do the McPeakes claim ownership of that, or does it have an older provenance?
BTW I agree that it's not necessarily better, but it is better known -- no one ever requests "Braes" to sing along with :-)
-HM

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: mandoleer
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:37 PM

On the subject of copyright, The Skye Boat Song comes out this year so far as I am aware. Mind you, I don't think most people knew it was IN anyway so it won't make much difference...

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:24 PM

Wild Mountain Thyme is a re-configuration of "Braes of Balquidder" polished by the McPeake family....it IS a more singable version than the original, but not necessarily 'better'.

and it's a good idea not to require that 'traditional' must mean 'anonymous', as scholarship will now & then find evidence of the author in some old broadside.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Highlandman
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:42 PM

>>royalties (PRS and MCPS) can be claimed by publishing the song
>>as Trad. arranged yourself as the work is now in the public domain

Yes, but in that case why not at least acknowledge the known author (say, Tannahill or Burns) just so as to not further muck up the attribution process? Furthermore, in the US at least (I think) one would not gain ownership of other versions separately derived, although there have been attempts to do so.

BTW what is the current thinking on Wild Mountain Thyme? I've read so many conflicting things that my head is all a-spin.

-HM

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 04:34 AM

If the author/composed has been dead for over 70 years then royalties (PRS and MCPS) can be claimed by publishing the song as Trad. arranged yourself as the work is now in the public domain (PD). This is also true if the work is by 'anon'.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 01:48 AM

traditional = traditionally sung? But what is 'traditionally sung?'

'Flower of Scotland' is traditionally sung at rugby matches, but it's not a traditional song as we've just been told above.

'Linden Lea' is older by about 100 years but isn't sung as part of any tradition. There are very few recordings of it, and I've not found any by any artist considered 'trad folk'.....

We used to have a saying about a particular event that happened annually. Various things occurred at this event and we paraphrased something Ian Fleming wrote (having nicked it from someone else, I just can't remember from whom), to cover it.

"Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times, it's (sung in a Topol voice) TRADITION!"

I suspect that trying to pin down the meaning of 'traditional' is like knitting fog, herding cats, or putting an octopus in a string bag.

LTS

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: goodbar
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:56 PM

i always thought flower of scotland was traditional


never quite figured out young ned of the hill. is it or is it not?

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:36 PM

Very interesting thread.

Dark as a Dungeon and I am a Pilgrim
Crazy Man Michael
"Long Black Veil"
D'Arcy Farrow
Grandfather's Clock

               It took me years to figure out these songs were not old . The great thing about just playing with people and learning songs is that they come to you as gifts out of the air . Merle Travers must have lived the real thing to give it back the way he did. Crazy MAn Michiel is querky enough I should have guesed but the toon ,... !! The story telling in Long Black Veil is just classic as is Darcy Farrow and being a Conneticut Yannkee Grandfathers Clock has always been used at local Sqare Dances and Kitchen Parties .


             Well as my father once wrote " tradition is not a form to be imitated but the disapline that gives integrity to the new. "   All of these songs are worthy of admeration as work ... " Inspired by the tradition ".

All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: pastorpest
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:16 PM

Sometime in the early eighties I heard Jean Redpath sing "Sonny's Dream" on the Prairie Home Companion. I searched for a long time in books of traditional Irish and Scottish song books before I learned that Ron Hynes wrote the song. And I'm Canadian!

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Arkie
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:36 PM

Jim Connor wrote the lyrics and tune for Grandma's Featherbed. John Denver's recording was the one most people heard.

My two cents regarding the terms "folk" and "tradional" as they relate to music: it is the realm of academics to devise useful categories which help in the historic and technical placement of songs or tunes. Music of unknown origins that has passed through several generations is placed in one category. Music of known origins that has passed through several generations and possibly even gone through some changes is placed in another category. New music, though it has appearances of older music, is in yet another category. In some contexts music from each category may be placed together in even another grouping. Categories are academic devices to describe something about the characteristics of a particular song or body of music. It seems to be the nature of the human race to continuously challenge those decisions and debate the nature of the criteria.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: mandoleer
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:10 PM

When you come down to it, every song or tune was made up / composed by someone somewhere somewhen. In the case of Linden Lea, often taken to be trad, the composer was Ralph Vaughan Williams. In the case of the equally beautiful The Water is Wide, we just don't know. Hughie Jones was rather tickled to find Ellan Vannin recorded and listed as trad on more than one Irish LP - and that the trad versions had a slightly different tune to the chorus to the original one he wrote! Another Liverpool one is, of course, In My Liverpool Home - by Pete McGovern who is still around to collect royalties on what most people regard as a totally trad part of the Liverpool heritage. Of course, we must remember how 'trad' works. Many years ago, my duo partner and I went to Leyland and heard a group from Blackpool sing a song they'd pinched from another group. The words were a Victorian poem. We liked it, noted down the words - and forgot the tune. So I wrote another one for it, and we performed it all around. And someone pinched it off us.... So if you hear anyone singing the song Pendle, the words ain't trad no way, and whichever tune you hear, that ain't anon neither. You just don't know which one of us wrote that particular version....

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 03:31 PM

Graham Moore wrote 'Tolpuddle Man' a few years ago. He visited Tolpuddle a while later and heard a busker singing it. The busker told Graham that it is a traditional song.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: BB
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:57 PM

Liz, I refer back to my query back on November 24th - traditional = traditionally sung?

Barbara

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:58 AM

I'm not sure, with the better recording facilities available now, that we can specify 'anonymous' or forgotten who wrote it as criteria for the sobriquet 'traditional'.

I know a song, the words of which were written in 1859. That would make it a strong contender for trad, but I know who wrote it. I also know who wrote the tune for it less than 100 years later.... so how is it classified? If you ask the library it's in their Traditional Folk song AND Modern composer sections....

I'm REALLY confused!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 05 - 12:55 PM

Did Jim Connor write the lyrics of Grandma's Featherbed? Google says that John Denver is the 'artist', Connor the 'composer'.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Arkie
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

I think I may have posted this somewhere on Mudcat before, but it is also appropriate here. Jim Connor once told me that on a visit to Ireland he was introduced as the writer of "Grandma's Featherbed". One patron of the bar took exception and was greatly offended that someone as young as Jim would lay claim to an old Irish folk song. Jim also mentioned that there was a radio station in Ireland that ran a contest on things that could be done in a featherbed. Was he pulling my leg or is this true.

"Fairfax County" by David Massengail has been suspected of being traditional as has Damon Black's song "Jake Satterfield". The latter was sung here in Mountain View, Arkansas for several years as a traditional song before I finally did a search for authorship. Fellow mudcatter, Dale, is the one who actually exposed Mr. Black as writer.

One further bit about Damon Black. He has written some pretty nice songs over the years but never was able to make a career of songwriting. Until he sold his farm to Wal-Mart.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:40 AM

Note that that whole Fields of Athenrye business has been dealt with in past discussions here. To summarise: it isn't based on a "true story", there is no evidence that the alleged broadside or even the alleged printer ("Devlin of Dublin") of the alleged broadside ever existed, and the person who started the rumour by claiming to have seen it "in an old book" was unwilling or unable to provide details. It must be considered a hoax; though whether malicious or not I wouldn't know.

Be careful of information found at Cantaria. There is a good deal of rubbish mixed in with (sometimes) reasonably accurate stuff.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 07:24 AM

Don T
Have you got John's latest version of Fiddlers Green with 3 new verses?

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: EagleWing
Date: 27 Mar 05 - 05:44 AM

According to http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/fields-athenry.html

Pete St. John is known as the author of this song, at least in its popular form, but the words go back to a broadsheet ballad that was published in the 1880's

The words of Pete's version are compared with those of the 1880 broadside.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Linda Mattson
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 11:48 PM

A traditional song is one whose author is not known.   Isn't that the accepted meaning? Of course, there are lots of complexities.

I'm afraid there will be no new traditional songs, with the power of the internet, so perhaps the meaning of the term will change over time.

I'm starting a thread "Songs you were surprised to learn _are_ traditional."

-Linda

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:04 PM

Sorry folks, just realised I had already made this comment some time ago.........oops!, deja vu.

DT

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 02:55 PM

Celtaddict's comment about trad being used to deprive authors of credit and royalties certainly applies in the case of "Fiddlers Green".

Some time back John Conolly, while performing at Hazlittfolk in Maidstone told me how it became "trad" on compilation recordings.

He was apparently one of those who recorded in the 60s, who had to sign over rights to the record company, and they insisted, when giving permissions for cover recordings, on the use of trad as a description.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 09:10 AM

In talking about the Braes o' Balquither, one should remember that it was a poem by Tannahill, set to music by Barr.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM

How many times have you seen "Maggie" listed as traditional? How often have you heard it referred to as an Irish or Scottish song?
("Nora" notwithstanding)

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 07:34 PM

Don't many think of Tolpuddle Man as trad?

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Daemon Lover
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:32 PM

Tradsinger,
have you actualy read the Price composition? It's practically nothing like the versions we sing today. In fact, it is probably a derivative hack job.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Don (Wysiwyg) T
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:38 PM

With reference to Fiddlers Green, John Conolly told me some years ago that the trad tag arose from the fact that the recording company grabbed the copyright when he first recorded it, and that, while he has been fighting to recover his rights to his intellectual property, they have allowed it to be added to several compilations with thr proviso that it be credited as trad, because they could not admit it was his without prejudicing their case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Celtaddict
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:54 AM

Guest looking for a whaling song: if you have not done so, it would be smart to try two things. First, try typing any or all phrases you remember precisely into the "Lyrics and Knowledge Search" at top right; try slight differences too, as someone else may have entered something very close but not identical. If you have no luck there, try "Start a New Thread" with LyricRequest with something like "whaling song, "the harbor lights may be 100 miles away." It does not sound familiar to me but there are a number of other sea song buffs in the Forum.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: BK Lick
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:39 PM

So how come JJ Niles's compositions haven't been mentioned here -- do they not signify because the composer falsely claimed to have collected them?

-- BK, wondering and wandering

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,looking for a whaling song
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:42 PM

i am looking for a whaling song that sounds traditional but probably isn´t.

the chorus goes like this:

"so fill your glasses high boys,
drink up all your pay,
tomorrow night, the harbor lights may be a hundred miles away"

the song is a long story about a boy who is about to ship out and is listening to the tales of old whalers outside of a pub. the old whaler "bought me my first ale."
"And since that night, twas many a time, that i have heard his tale"

anyway know that song?
andrew
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,celtaddict at work
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 09:03 PM

Kytrad, thanks for the filling out of the story of "Come Fare Away with Me," which I love and which not only sounds traditional but is on its way to being so. I agree absolutely about people thinking they, or their families, wrote songs that have long been sung elsewhere. I suspect this happens even more readily with tunes; certainly I seem to hear the same Irish tunes often with different names and attributions. (Though Cindy Mangelson says there are only eleven Irish tunes, one for each key/mode.)
Tattie Bogle: When last heard Eric was still telling that tale, with quotes from Auntie; love it!
BonnieShaljean: Pete St. John used to be Peter Mooney. (And in case you did not know, or care, Ewan MacColl used to be Jimmy Miller.)
Dougie MacLean's "Caledonia" is the one with the refrain, "Let me tell you that I love you, that I think about you all the time; Caledonia, you've been everything I've ever had."
Murray Macleod: No evidence whatsoever. The story about it being used without his permission was told me by a Scot musician who knows and has worked with Dougie, and who was conducting a tour at the time, including going to Dougie's pub. He is generally scholarly in his work, but may not be above telling a good tale....

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 07:15 PM

Melani:

"Witch of the Westmeerlands" does trip the "something's wrong" button for me. (Wrong in that I never thought it was Trad -- I love the song.) It just seems too much like a modern fantasy story - I guess its the general anti-war stance of the song. Most "real trad" stuff I've heard or read (in Child, 'fer instance) seems more generally gung ho about honor, chivalry and bashing heads.

I'm willing to be educated, however. Anyone want to point me to "real trad" pacifist songs? (sp?)

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Dita
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:51 PM

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:52 PM

"What Caledonia are we talking about...the one that Norma Waterson sings is tradition from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Is there another song called Caledonia ? "

The song you are talking about is called "When first I went to Caledonia" recorded by Tony Cuffe and later by Norma.

The song the earlier post is about is by Dougie MacLean and was sung by Frankie Miller in a UK TV beer ad.

There is of course a Louis Jordan song with the same title.

Cheers, John

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:06 PM

John O' Dreams comes from Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony (No 6),
Groovy kind of Love comes from a Clementi sonata - no such thing as a new tune?
Tom Paxton song was "Last thing on my Mind": it was his DAUGHTER who heard someone in a pub in St Andrews (Scotland) announce it as traditional Irish. "My Dad wrote that" she said to a disbelieving audience.
One of the best stories is Eric Bogle's re "No Man's Land" (aka as Green fields of France): in a report in one of our better newspapers, Tony Blair had allegedly said it was one of his favourite songs, and the journalist had added that it was written by a soldier who died in the first World War!
Incidentally, does anyone know how old "the Irish Rover " is? I recently found a version in my granfather's hand where he had obviously changed the names in one of the verses to fit with his fellow-soldiers in WW1, so must be older than 1917 I guess.
TB

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:30 PM

One of my songs, Now is the Cool of the Day, was recently appropriated by a college choral-music teacher who made and was marketing his own arrangement of it at Conferences, etc. His excuse was that a friend of his had passed it along to him as "an old southern spiritual," and this friend is still searching for his source! I assured him that I had composed both words & music, but don't know as yet if he's convinced.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:52 PM

i once heard a musician friend,back in the 60's(referring to the onslaught of new folk songs being written at that time)say,writing new folk songs was like inventing antiques!!!

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

LONESOME EJ...don't forget merle travis,' biggest hit...SIXTEEN TONS!!!

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:41 PM

MMARIO..."you are my sunshine,"was written by the late Jimmy Davis,also was several times elected as governor of Louisianna!

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GEST
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:19 PM

Beating a dead horse here, but Wild Mountain Thyme always comes up in discussions of this nature. Ironically, even though Tannehill/arr. McPeake seems to be the consensus, this article from MTV Europe News, dated June 21, 1995, demonstrates how song ownership can easily get confused:

"A record company is capitalising on a blunder by Rod Stewart's label by releasing a version of the 1940's Irish folk song the British Star mistakenly claimed he had written. Stewart's version of the song Purple Heather was incorrectly credited to him on his latest WEA album Spanner In The Works. And now a version from 1985 by the real writer's son, Jimmy McPeake, 59, and his group Barnbrack is being released by Ireland's Outlet Records. McPeake's father Frankie wrote the song in 1947 calling it Will Ye Go Lassie Go."

http://www.things.org/music/van_morrison/digest_archives/v01.n184

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:03 PM

Not everyone realizes this, but sometimes a singer in the tradition believes that he/she has written a song- for various reasons I would guess- problems of memory, with aging; having added verses and filled in gaps on his/her own over the years; never having heard another variant of the song, so thinking that it exists only in his/her family and was composed by the family ancestors- whatever. There is a highly respected and beloved trad singer who lived near our part of Kentucky who honestly believed that he wrote the ballad, "Jack Went Sailing," or, "Jackaro." In families around his, the song was sung long before he was born, so it isn't really true, but no one ever fought with him about it- didn't want to hurt his feelings.

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Dani
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM

Raise your hand if you thought "Edelweiss" was a traditional tune/song. You don't have to admit WHEN you discovered it wasn't.

Dani

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: Tradsinger
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:03 PM

Dear Deckman,

Sorry to have caused you so much internal turmoil. Just for the record, I do regard House Carpenter as traditional, but I just wanted to make the point that the distinction between 'traditional' and 'composed' can be very blurred, and to get people thinking a little beyond the obvious. I'll give you another example - those of my era will remember the song 'Portland Town', undoubtedly composed by Derrol Adams and yet within a short time various versions of it were circulating amongst the folk community (in the 60s - showing my age). So the song passed from being a composition to one undergoing the folk process and in a way common property. Does that mean it's now a traditional song? I've been singing folksongs for 40 years and I'm buggered if I know the answer. Just enjoy the singing and the songs.

All the best

Gwilym

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:06 AM

How about dance tunes? I'm a musician with the Welsh Folk Dance Society; We usually play "Lord Of Caernarvon's Jig" (which is not a jig at all but a good, solid, major-key tune in four/four time) and segue into this stonking, marvellous, minor-key tune which I (and a good many other musos) thought was traditional. It's not - I can reveal that Olly Price the fiddler (no relation) wrote it. She named it "Lady Caernarvon's Pig". So now you know...

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:29 AM

The Dark Island was written by Alan Bell.

Fiddlers' Green, by John Connolly, was massacred by this American shanty singer under the impression that it was traditional (sorry, can't remember his name - he did a hilariously bad album called Songs In The Key Of Sea).

Subject: RE: Songs you thought were trad
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 12:12 AM

Is that the same Pete Jennings? If so, hello from Olly and me...