Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?

Subject: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

I heard today in a local pub that as of yesterday Samuel Smiths pubs had banned ALL music - including juke boxes / behind bar music / live / everything.

Does anyone know if this is true?

Be aware - this is based on ONE pub so there may be more/less to it than this.

I AM NOT TRYING TO START A RUMOUR - just seeking clarification. I will phone the brewery a little later as - as a few of you know - we sing in a pub locally and I would like to know before I turn up tomorrow and get told I can't!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:02 AM

If you heard it in a pub - then it must be true!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

If true, that is truly disastrous. Wonderful ale, used to have a folk club in a Sam Smith's pub in Lincolnshire (many years ago).

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:22 AM

I have tried to get clarification from the pub but I can't get an answer at reception/area manager/her boss/managing director level - apparently they are all unavailable.

Seems a simple enough question but is apparently being dealt with at an area + level.

I will let you know when someone calls me.

Perhaps people in other areas might have more luck?

Samuel Smiths number is 01937 832225

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

One of the carolling pubs near Sheffield is SS. Ill be ther Saturday and try and remember to ask.

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:30 PM

|Nellies In Beverley is a Sams where the folk club was on last night.   The Sunday sessions are 2nd 3rd (and if) the 5th weekend of the month. The Jazz club is Wednesday and there is a regular saltza?
night on one friday in the month. But I will check with my landlady,

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:47 PM

I have just phoned my landlady ,   She says that you are right with the juke box having to go, She has had the letter of confirmation, jukebox out pre Christmas.   But there is no problem with live music. Panic over i'd have had to sell up and move to a new venue,   and oh the price of a pint i'd then have to pay.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:12 PM

I wonder what the reasoning is behind this move?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

Could be the thin end of the wedge for the new/proposed legislation.Or am I just being dumb.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:20 PM

I didnt think any Sam Smith pubs ever had juke boxes I thought it was just one of those things that Humphrey didnt approve of, like advertising or selling Guiness

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

I was also of the opinion that Sam Smiths pubs never had a jukebox as a matter of company policy.
Quack!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 01:49 AM

So the news is, that the juke boxes - they don't have - are going to have to go?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:41 AM

If I contracted to move the juke boxes that aren't there to some place else they won't be, how much do ya think a contract like that would be worth in Euros?

Bruce 'Halliburton' Murdoch

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:43 AM

No music?? Like I said in the smoking thread, pretty soon no talking & no drinking!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:26 AM

Most of the Sams pubs round where we are have a cd player or something just to play some background - apparently those are not ok either. And (another unconfirmed thing) I did also hear that TVs will be gone by end of year though I can't say that concerns me.

Still if live music is ok (though I have been told in one pub it isn't) that's great. HAven't heard from anyone from Sams themselves yet - hopefully someone may phone me back today

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:29 AM

I hope they've kept the live music, Nick. Good luck with the gig.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:38 AM

No muzac, can't be a bad thing.

eric

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:48 AM

J.D.Wetherspoons pubs are totally music free. No muzak, no juke box, no live music. (No morris dancing, by implication).

If, as it now appears, Sam Smiths are banning all recorded music but allowing live music, this is truly good news. I wonder what prompted them to make that decision?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:57 PM

Well I spoke with a representative of the brewery and (to quote) "for the moment" we are welcome to play and she wished us well for this evening and hoped we had a good time - which is nice. And this after consultation with her bosses.

The general consensus seems to be that either it may be down to PRS - presumably an unwillingness to renew which is hence why it won't come into effect for a while; or it is a whim of chairman as he did when he took the decision to remove alcopops.

If it is the former then the first time that Sams have a complaint over live music (which few Sams pubs are licensed for I believe) presumably there exists the same possibility of a blanket decision affecting us all.

For those of you who have visited our local pub (Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington, N Yorks) you will know why we rather treasure it.

Shameless plug at the end - everyone always welcome on a wednesday evening for a singaround and play!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:37 PM

Same feeling from me Re Nellies, maybe we should all get together and lobby the board.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:44 AM

If these pubs are not currently licensed for live music - it may not be such a good idea to inform the bosses that you are holding live music in some of their pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:02 AM

The management structure of the company is well aware to MD level that we have been playing there for 2+ years - one of the things it shows in is in the takings.

True to say that over the last two years the biggest takings at the bar have always been on nights when there has been music on (including a friday night where 700+ pints went down - I can name the main culprits who frequent this forum as well (!!)). When you consider that the pub is based in a village with approximately 100 inhabitants (of whom 10 perhaps use it regularly) surrounded by larger villages each with their own pub/pubs and that it does minimal food you can see that anything that provides regular drinking trade is not to be sniffed at.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:11 AM

Was I there? Strange all this, because Nellies in Beverley does have a jukebox, but it is tucked away in the pool room. Incidentally it is full of the most God awful 'heavy metal'

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

"including a friday night where 700+ pints went down"

I resemble that evening come morning....excellent camp site

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: muppett
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:37 AM

When there's nowt folky appening in Whitby the Juke box in the plough is source great entertaintment, by eck I had some good sessions in there with my local friends dancing to the old clasics and singing away to them. They'll be a few complaints if it goes.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:25 AM

Sorry to be a bit of a bore on this but, when I did my thesis for my honours degree almost 20 years ago it was entitled "The Regulation of Alcohol and Social Control, a Case Study of the English Public House"
In it I related the incidence of violent conduct in public house's with and without Juke Boxes, in bars with Juke Boxes the incidence of violence was far greater than those without.(Yes, I did look at the demographics of the clientele) One of my conclusions was that juke boxes, in particular those played at volume, created sitautions were tempers were likely to flair, this conclusion was also arrived at by Prof Michael Smith of Bristol University although I have to admit to meeting and discussing this with him.
Perhaps in the intervening years someone has heeded the wisdom of Prof Smith (I doubt if my thesis has ever been taken of the shelf at Bradford University)and thought to apply his logic in an attempt to reduce pub violence

Just a thought

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:56 AM

Perhaps in the intervening years someone has heeded the wisdom of Prof Smith (I doubt if my thesis has ever been taken of the shelf at Bradford University)and thought to apply his logic in an attempt to reduce pub violence

Perhaps it has been. The Licensing Act 2003 contains an exemption from the requirment for entertainment permission for the playing recorded music that is 'incidental'. This word is not defined in the legislation but the statutory guidance does refer to juke boxes as an example and specifically the volume at which the juke box was played. If it was played a low level it could be considered as 'incidental' and exempt - at higer levels it would not be..........   

The management structure of the company is well aware to MD level that we have been playing there for 2+ years - one of the things it shows in is in the takings.

If your pub does currently have a Public Entertainment Licence there is no need for the management structure to be concerned. If your pub does not have one and there are more than (the same) two 'performers' making music - they probably would be concerned.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:16 AM

Raggytash, your friends must have envied you for choosing a research project that necessitated visiting a statistically significant number of pubs!
(not that I remember needing any excuses for that when I was a student...)

I'm not suprised at the findings. Noise causes stress, and stress makes people drink more (I wonder if that's one reason why they have juke boxes?), and the combination can hardly encourage orderly conduct.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:24 AM

Possibly one of the factors with juke boxes is that although folk can listen to the music - without specific licensing permission - dancing to this music - which at one time was pretty much thought the entire object of this juke box music - was forbidden.

Having loud rock and roll on a juke box that you are prevented from dancing to - is hardly likely to cause good feeling and orderly conduct.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:35 AM

Subject: DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:15 AM

From today' Guardian. PLEASE HELP!

Fancy footwork lands pubs in the dock

Colin Blackstock
Friday November 22, 2002
The Guardian

The pub owners tried everything to stop it including putting up signs, rearranging the furniture and even asking people to refrain. But it was all to no avail: council officials diagnosed outbreaks of spontaneous dancing, and the owners were fined £5,000.

Officials from Westminster city council initially spotted four people dancing to piped music at the Pitcher and Piano pubs in Soho, central London. Later, as the rhythm took control, that figure rose to five. On another visit as many as 11 people were dancing. Something had to be done.

The council took action against Wolverhampton and Dudley Breweries, which runs the two pubs, where customers had been spotted getting down to the piped music.

With their patrons caught red-footed, the company pleaded guilty to not having a proper licence which allows dancing.

It was fined £2,500 for each offence, plus costs of £1,600 at a London magistrates court on Wednesday.

Derek Andrews, Wolverhampton and Dudley's managed house chief, said the company had tried everything in its power to stop customers from breaking into dance, even going so far as to turn the music off, but people still continued to dance.

Council officials have also served two written warnings on another pub in Wardour Street, Soho, about people found "swaying", according to the licensed trade's newspaper the Publican.

Under current law, dancing is only allowed if premises have been granted a public entertainment licence.

Bob Currie, director of the community protection department at Westminster council, said in a letter quoted in the Publican: "Dancing could be described as the rhythmic moving of the legs, arms and body usually changing positions within the floor space available and whether or not accompanied by musical support."

ENDS

No this was not a joke..........

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:29 AM

I seem to recall that the rythymic beat of music increases the heart rate and the production of adrenaline, this combined with a volume of sound sufficient to debar clear verbal communication led to conflict through misintereptation of normal anthropological nuances, for example were a wave of hello would be construed as a gesture of aggression or defiance. Of course one would consider that alcohol played it's role in this, however Prof Smith conducted various evaluations across a wide range of bars and clearly came to the conculsion that it was the music (volume and fast pumping rythym)and NOT the alcohol that caused MOST of the conflict.

........And yes Treewind, whenever I asked friends to help me carry out research I was frequently inundated with offers of assistance to the extent where research flew out of the window and we all got pissed instead ! Ah Happy Days

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:38 AM

" in bars with Juke Boxes the incidence of violence was far greater than those without."

Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast, eh?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM

One of my 'local' pubs (Since closed down!) regularly had a Disco on a Saturday evening , at which the most common sound heard was the Landlady screaming " Stop that @*)(^%$ Dancing !" One wonders WHY she
would book a Disco , when NOT having a dancing Licence !!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:32 AM

Manitas, we're talking juke boxes - what's music got to do with it?
[evil grin]
Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 11:37 AM

Treewind ......... whilst considering the introduction of Jukeboxes as a significant event in the slow painful death of English Public Houses (and I do distinguish them from Scottish, Welsh or Irish bars)
even I have to say that on occasion I have come across one or two that actually have music on that would appeal to the most ardent dyed in the wool folkie

I'll go and wash my mouth out with soap shall I ........

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:32 AM

A thought struck last night. Could it be that Sams are trying to make their pubs unattractive to the young at a time when binge drinking etc is a problem? With no alcopops - own brand spirits and beers - and no music are they going out of their way to distance themselves from the 'branded shots/fancy bottle brigade' who frequent the 'trendier' drinking spots?

The Kings Arms in York - famous Sams pub for being underwater when the Ouse rises (quite fun standing on beer crates with the water lapping round your feet!) - is now out of the 'Micklegate run' at weekends I believe. For those who have never been to York, Micklegate is filled with bars etc and at weekends has scores of youths trawling from pub to pub for the evening, followed by peeing in the doorways and smashing the odd window. You probably have something similar in your area!

Out of interest are there many Samuel Smiths pubs that regularly do live music round the country - I know of Nellies but is it widespread?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:58 AM

Nick

You seem to earlier suggest that not many were licensed for live music which if true would probably mean that there were only these that were able to provide live music. Have we established if your your pub has a PEL?

With the new Licensing Act set to come into force in February 2005, it may be a good idea to find out if your pub and others in this chain are going to apply for entertainment permission. If they do not intend to do this - the future of any live music in these pubs is very uncertain.

If they are thinking not to apply - due as you possibly indicate to concerns about PRS charges - it will be interesting to know. If it were the case - it would be important to inform your MP and get them to inform the DCMS's Live Music Forum, which is set up to study the effects of the new Act on live music.

I don't want to start a rumour either but one of the feared effects is that for the first time under the Act - PRS and similar bodies will have a (Council supplied) list of all premises where live music takes place - unlike now where their inspectors have to visit - as it will not be able to take place in any pub without this permission. It could be that a chain like this one - may see that having to pay for PRS fees in all its pubs - is the straw that breaks the camels back.

Of course all this is pure speculation - without some firm evidence.

Perhaps a letter to them would be best and a reply may serve to put your mind at rest - or not? But at least you would have some firm evidence one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:39 AM

If you consider the vast outlay for providing the various licences for it's managed houses, this may simply be a cost cutting exercise in order for Smith's to continue as one of the cheapest retailers of beer etc. It will also allow them to compete with Weatherspoon's on a level playing field should that be their remit. However as a devotee of the Plough during Whitby Folk Week I fervently hope they continue to allow live music (although I have to say some of the sessions in the Plough only loosely fall into this category!)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM

Aren't we in danger of leaving our american chums out of this thread.
I was always of the opinion that Sam Smiths didn't travel too far from Tad and was suprised a few years ago to find a pint of Sams in Bangor (Maine)It tasted great but then again there wasnt any serious competition!!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

At the moment - for a pub licence just serving to serve alcohol and no late night extensions etc - it costs £30 for 3 years. Or ten pound a year. this will change in February 2005

The exact new fees have not been finalised and set in stone but if you ignore the cost of the one-off Premises Licence charge, (say £500) valid for the life of the business and the cost of the Personal Licence valid for 10 years - there will be an annual inspection fee of say £250 to be paid whether entertainment permission is in place or not.

Now for a chain this size - the increase when multiplied by each pub - is considerable and it may well be that in order to enable them to continue - some cost-cutting measures will be required.

you could argue that there is plenty of money still to be made but the key may be competition. For some of the larger pubs currently providing live music or night clubs paying very larges annual sums for the Public Entertainment Licenses and being able to open late because of this payment - will be far better off under the new Act.

They will be in competition not only for custom but also for staff.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 02:59 PM

Shambles:
It appears from your post above that you have been stirring us up unecessarily for the last few years.
You seem to indicate that all the costs you have been claiming will prevent the performance of live music will not have that effect at all:
The exact new fees have not been finalised and set in stone but if you ignore the cost of the one-off Premises Licence charge, (say £500) valid for the life of the business and the cost of the Personal Licence valid for 10 years - there will be an annual inspection fee of say £250 to be paid whether entertainment permission is in place or not.

If your latest post is true, it seems we have nothing to fear!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM

If it appears that way then it is probably because I have not been directly addressing that issue or you have not read what I have said here very well. There were folk who were concerned mainly about the possible cost and the effects of this. That was not my main objection but cost remains a factor - as this thread possibly shows.

As you will not have to pay it - if you are not a licensee - you probably never did have to fear it. Those that do have to pay may see this issue and the level of the fee differently.

If you own a number of pubs and currently pay £10 a year but will have to now pay £250 for each one (before you even think about paying for a live act or bouncers) - costs do remain a factor and are unlikely to increase the level of live music.

If by 'we' you mean those of us who make and enjoy live music in pubs - we still may have quite a lot to fear. If the pubs choose not to apply - there will not be any live music permitted them as applying this permission remains optional. And pubs are not the only areas of concern.

My council are having to obtain Premise Licenses on their outdoor property just to enable the Punch and Judy shows that have taken place on the beach since the place first became a resort.

All the 'stirring up' may not have prevented the worst of the Act but it has resulted in the legislation not being quite as bad as first intended and may also have had the effect of ensuring that the suggested fee levels are not higher. But while there remains pressure from Local Authorities to increase them - there is no guarantee that these levels will not rise.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:39 PM

The facts have been in the papers. Well, insofar as anything in the papers is fact.

It is not a PEL issue, but PRS. PRS is trying to put the pub canned music licence relating to the performing right in the music up from about 250 per year to abour £1,000 or more per year. Smiths think this is too much.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:36 AM

If it is a question of total costs for licensees and pubs - then it probably matters little which particular aspect is at issue. But you can plainly see that there is squeeze being applied that threatens to increase the total cost of running their pubs and affect the current profit levels and all aspects of their operation.

But is this rise (in addition to the costs of the new licensing requirements) sought only for the fee for recorded music? How hard are they trying to increase the fee and who has the final say in this?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:03 AM

It may have been in the news but I could not find anything online about any attempt to increase fees for recorded music – perhaps someone could oblige with this information?

The following however, is a site about PRS and folk music.

http://www.tomcc.freeserve.co.uk/musicmkfiles/PRS/prs.htm

I did find this about the concern about total costs.

MP speaks out on rateable value increase
The Publican Published 3rd December 2004

MP for Brentwood and Ongar Eric Pickles, has expressed concern about the increases in rateable value on the ability of licensees to run their pubs.
Licensees in his constituency have slammed the increases of up to 30 per cent and say it will have a significant impact on the costs of running their premises.
Mr Pickles said: "Such a large increase in rateable value could have a direct impact on the annual costs of running a pub, club or bar unless the rate charged in the pound drops significantly.
"These increases are on top of potential 1800 per cent increases in fees for licences and other increased costs through new legislation being introduced by the Government."

ENDS
I think I am correct in saying that the level of the new Licensing Act fees will be banded on the premises ratable value.

I cannot see that the effect of all these increases are going to encourage many small pubs to pay musicians to provide live music.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:24 AM

Not apparently a PRS issue either but one for Phonographic Performance Limited [PPL].

Quiet pint returns as pubs ban music.
Exclusive by Brendan Williams
Daily Mirror Friday 3 December 2004.

Hundreds of pubs have banned background music because of a huge rise in licence fees to play the tunes.

Brewers Samuel Smith have ordered landlords to switch off sound systems after it was announced costs could soar by 500 per cent.

Bosses refused to say why the ban was imposed. But it is thought to be in protest at the price rises by Phonographic Performance Limited, the body which makes sure record companies receive royalties.

At the moment a large pub pays £214 a year for a music licence, but that will go up to £1,000 under a new rates system which comes into force in 2006.

Yorkshire-based Samuel Smith, which has around 200 pubs, is believed to be the first brewery to ditch music over the fees. The move has been met with a mixed reception by landlords. Some claim customers will stay away, others believe many drinkers will be glad to have a quiet pint.

One said: "It's a mistake. At this time of year people will be coming in for Christmas lunches and like a bit of festive background music".

But a Samuel Smith regular declared: "Thank God. Its nice to have a quiet pint without music blaring."

Jill Drew of PPL said: "On a weekly basis the cost of playing music in pubs is not that much."

ENDS

The danger here is that the Daily Mirror does not seem to think that there is any other form of music than recorded background music and makes no distinction about exactly what Samuel Smiths ahve 'ditched'.

Many of us may welcome the absence of so-called background recorded music blaring out – but would not welcome the absence of the many forms of live music that struggle to survive in our smaller pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 08:06 AM

It's sadly true, my local nellies in beverley has had to stop, but this also means it will see less of me and my mates, as going out for a pint in an atmosphere of music we like was a key point to are nites out. Now it means will be going to Hull to hear the music we like, this is a sad case as i love nellies but without the music the atmosphere will go and eventually many of its drinkers will also.

To Sam Smiths i hope you see the error of your ways before your profits go to low and you have to start closing your pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

Yes, my mistake, PPL, not PRS. So in fact in this respect live music will be cheaper for pubs. They will still need PRS, but not PPL.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 05:40 PM

Not sure that I follow that this move makes live music any cheaper. It may mean that the total pub running costs will be a little less perhaps, at least for next year for Samuel Smiths and others who may follow their example. However, this fee (apart from perhaps buying the CDs) is all it costs to provide bckground recorded music.

To provide live music, on top of all the other costs to run the pub and the PRS fee - pubs still need to find the money to pay live performers.

This move by Samuel Smiths - not to pay the current fee for a year, looks to be a protest and probably will be an effective one. If others follow this example - PPL will certainly feel the pinch in 2005 and may have to re-think the £1,000 fee proposed for 2006.

It could be that Samuel Smiths may apply for the licence again - if the proposed increase does not happen - then again they may find that the majority of their customers prefer to drink and not to have to shout over background music, I know I do. PPL may prove to have shot themselves in the foot.

My concern is that no distinction is being made between recorded background music and live music in pubs. And that live music may suffer as a result of the general agreement I can foresee - that banning music in pubs is a good idea, or at least not a bad one.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:19 AM

The PPL website

http://www.ppluk.com/

They have a tie-up with EFDSS - details here.
The PPL licence and your club
http://www.efdss.org/ppl.htm

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:31 AM

Now for the good news! You won't even be safe now whilst tucking in to a 'Ruby Murray'.

As PPL and PRS are going to combine for this exercise - perhaps this accounts for the £1,000 cost proposed for 2006 - as this includes the PRS fee? if this is so - there will be a real threat to live music also.....

For decades, anyone wanting to play live or recorded music in public premises in the UK has had to deal separately with PRS for their music licence and PPL for their sound recordings licence. Now, the organisations that represent composers & publishers of music [PRS] and the record companies and performers [PPL] have come together to promote the use of music in public places and give some new music users a one stop shop for their music licences.

Under the banner of "The Power of Music", PPL & PRS will use trade & local advertising combined with direct mail, telemarketing and field marketing to reach new customers from next week. The first marketing campaign is planned for Indian Restaurants and Takeaways. In a first for both collecting societies, the accompanying advertising, mail and telephone campaigns will be multi-lingual, encompassing the two most common languages from the Indian sub-continent as well as English.

Early next year, Power of Music will embark on geographically based campaigns for individual postcode areas and the Top 500 companies in the UK who use music in the workplace.

Said Clive Bishop, PPL director of operations, "We are trying to make it easier for music users to get their PPL and PRS licences and to get all the information they need from one source." PRS performance sales director, Clive Thomas, added, "Music is a powerful business tool that really benefits enterprises of all shapes and sizes. Our aim is to bring that message to thousands of businesses that need our licences, with as little red tape as possible, thus creating a substantially user friendly environment"
Contact: Adrian Crookes, PRS, 020 7 306 4230 or Jill Drew, PPL, 020 7 534 1245

http://www.thepowerofmusic.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:40 AM

Many local artists are not members of organisations like PRS and would gladly allow a pub to play their own CD's as background music. harriWatts band will gladly allow Nellies to play their CD free of charge. By the way the beer is good and excellent value for money compared to most other pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM

Nice sentimemt Handed Pulled, however in theory some of the this money goes to the perfomer and writer who made not have the same generousity of spirit due to the fact they rely on this income, which is the other side of the coins to be considered when we are discussing the merits of this argument

or playing Devil's advocate !

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Steve, The Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:20 AM

Arrived at the pub Tuesday night to watch the results of the champions league football. When I arrived I noticed that the television had GONE!!!
The landlord said he had been ordered by Sam Smiths to remove any entertainment products. The bailiffs duly arrived and took the T.V. and the pubs background music system. Leaving only the bolts in the wall from the T.V. bracket.
The landlord offered to pay the £400 increased fee out of his own pocket but was told that he couldn't.
A crowd of about 20 people duly left the pub to go and watch the T.V. at another pub up the road.
I am sure this measure by the brewery wil cost the pubs a small fortune in lost revenue.
Is it me or have Sam Smiths gone MAD!!!!!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:27 AM

I had a quick break from Xmas shopping yesterday and had a pint in The Rugby on Dock street. All of the old men in there suppin' cheap mild wouldn't have known if a TV or background music was on anywhere. They just wanted to chat.............

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Michael
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:54 AM

The landlady of my local Sam Smith told me yesterday, that was told by the brewery not to play any music from today on. The CD player and TV will be removed. Very sad. Maybe I have to look for a new local.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,andee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

Has the world gone MAD!!!No music in my pub,no darts,no TV.
Sam Smiths do you want customers????

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:08 PM

It shows a total disregard for their customers if you ask me.

There are other ways to protest than to make life miserable for your customers.

So what if it's gone up to £1,000 per annum, it was probably under priced to start with for a professioanl entertainment venue.

With an £800 per year increase (£1,000 per year fee) thats only £20 per week for a licence. A juke box will take that amount in a night.

I spend £50-£60 per week in my local Sam Smith's.

I'm never going back. That's already cost my them 3 x the increased fee even if no-one else leaves my local.

It's about time Sam Smiths came into the 21st Century and realised what customers expect:

Pool Tables
Up-to-date Juke Boxes / Video Juke Boxes
Large Screen Entertainment - ie. Plasma / Projection Screens for sporting events etc.
Sky TV
Decent Outside Seating areas with adequate heating
Decent modern interiors in good repair

Other pub chains provide these, there are 3 other pubs within 5 minutes walk of my Sam Smiths and at least 10 or 11 other pubs within 5 minutes drive.

Yes, Sam may be trying to keep beer prices low.

But everyone I know has said they'd rather pay and extra 5-10p per pint (which would still leave his beer by far the cheapest)and have all these facilities than have no facilities and very slightly cheaper beer.

Al.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:22 PM

I would go quite a long way out of my way to find a pub with no jukebox or television or wallpaper music - for me it's a major advantage - and it would be a bonus if it's OK to play a few tunes now and again. If it's not live, it sucks.
Ray

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:12 AM

All the music and TVs have gone rom the pubs round us and it's still a BIG talking point. Our local has now lost the little Saturday afternoon racing fraternity who enjoyed a pint and a little flutter on the horses.

Perhaps it's an opportunity for the return of the pub pianist? I have suggested to my son that he has a trot round the pubs and see if anyone wants any music over Xmas. Only problem is lugging the upright round with him but it could be quite lucrative! (Visions of every pub with their own Liberace... scary thought)

I have decided to write to Smiths about what they intend to do about live music if/when that comes to a head in the coming year as they are aware that we play each week. I will let you know what the response is if I get a reply.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:26 AM

It might be better to keep our heads down and hope that they (the management)don't notice that we are there.

R

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:29 AM

Perhaps it's an opportunity for the return of the pub pianist?

Under the new Act - a (playable) piano is an entertainment facility and its playing illegal without entertainment permission. But those behind the drafting of the Act were not expecting the piano player to lug their own piano around.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:33 AM

It might be better to keep our heads down and hope that they (the management)don't notice that we are there.

Don't think there was ever really a place for the 'head in sand' approach.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:44 AM

Guest Al, would I be correct to guess you are under 30, The very things you suggest customers want are the things some of us try to avoid like the plague, when I go for a pint (which I do very frequently) I like a decent beer or stout or cider and good company and good conversation.

I do not need plasma screens, sport, juke boxes of any description, sky TV or any TV come to that (if I want to watch TV I'll stay home or tape it and watch it when I get home) If I want a big screen I'll go to the cinema. Modern interiors are fine in modern pubs, personally I like old, well worn, lived-in interiors where you can feel the presence of all the clients of the pub over the years and as for outside seating with heating ........... Australia come to mind.

These are the very things that have ruined pubs, pubs should the heart of a community where people can meet and talk and laugh and cry, share problems, discuss issues,as Hilaire Belloc wrote "when you have lost your pubs, you may drown your empty selves, for you will have lost the heart of England" I couldn't have put it better myself

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:35 AM

It might be better to keep our heads down and hope that they (the management)don't notice that we are there.

The management ARE aware - at least definitely in our case. It's quite difficult to hide on your sales figures too I would guess (ie AREA MANAGER: "Your takings are very good every ???day, what are you doing to attract the business?" PUB MANAGER: "Just a coincidence..." Hmmm!!!)

My interest in writing to them is so that I know before and can make other arrangements rather than have it happen one day and be faced with doing things in a hurry. Potential venues in this part of the world for hosting folk get togethers are limited without having to travel lots and it is not necessarily something to reorganise in seconds.

Sams responded to my previous contacts promptly and politely and I see no reason why they shouldn't do so vis a vis live music.

If it turns out that I was wrong and Sams promptly ban all live music then at least you'll know who is to blame.

I dare say that as a reasonably large pub chain (and with their interests in working mans clubs etc) that they MAY have got the whiff that something is in the offing about PEL and that it won't come as a total surprise. I would guess this is closer to the position than a group of total naifs running Sams.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:13 AM

"outside seating with heating ........... Australia come to mind."

Well, funnily enough - many places in Brisbane and west of here are installing those gas bottle heaters with the big reflector shades on the top - in winter time they can be very handy... in summer time - ice packs would be nmore useful.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

If it turns out that I was wrong and Sams promptly ban all live music then at least you'll know who is to blame.

Folk may attempt to blame you - simply for trying to establish the true position - but the true blame for all this, lies elsewhere.

As there will be no extra cost to the chain for making the application for all its pubs to provide Regulated Entertainment - there should be no real reason for them not to do this, come February 2005. They don't HAVE to actually provide any subsequently but it will enable the sort of small-scale music making that seems to be going on at present (with or without the knowledge of the top management).

There is certainly no harm in asking what their intentions are and if they are deciding not to apply - it will be useful to know this - and the reasons - as soon as possible.

The issue with the PPL/PRS may be a bit more complicated. But the lack of these licences does not come with quite the full weight of law behind them. If they claim that the chain owes them money for the use of any of its material - perhaps the onus should be on PPL/PRS them to prove the level of this claim, especially if it was only for live (folk) music, where it should not be too difficult to arrange payment of a small fee, for this that would be acceptable to all sides? Samuel Smiths obvious reluctance to pay the £1,000 fee for the recorded music - should make this second option easier.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:37 AM

Hi Foolestroup ........ we too have those gas heaters, but I for one don't want to sit outside on a cold night, I much rather sit in a pub with an open fire, quenching my thirst, deep in conversation.

When I go to Ireland however those heaters are appreciated cos you have to stand outside to have a cigarette !

Maybe I'm clairvoyant because when I first heard a Jukebox in a pub in the late 60's I knew then that the pub would never be the same again, I was fortunate enough (although underage) to catch the last of the era when an old lady or gent played the piano on a Friday and Saturday night and still consider it to be the best entertainment in the world

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:42 PM

Unless it was Uncle Albert playing! Different pubs for different people. That's what it should be about. Sam Smith's are offering good value on their beers and an environment where you can 'think' as well as talk. They will always have clientel. I sincerely hope live acoustic music is allowed to continue in their pubs as many of them such as Nellies have the atmosphere that goes hand in hand with that style of music. Loud, brash pubs are not my scene unless I was desperate to go and watch a sporting event on a large sceen. Mines a pint of Extra Stout.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:19 PM

... to match the waistline? ;-)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:29 AM

It's all muscle!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: pavane
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:48 AM

Various comments on the above:

1. These days, a keyboard does not have to be a piano. Good portable keyboards are available.

2. The PRS only has control over music which is in copyright

3. The PPL ditto over prerecorded music

THEREFORE
a) A privately recorded CD containing only non-copyright material AND/OR material written and recorded by the vendor
CAN be played in a pub without a PPL licence

b) provided the premises has a licence for entertainment, it can provide live performance of TRADITIONAL and self-penned material without paying the PRS.

Therefore it becomes more economically viable to provide folk, classical and early music than pop, rock or jazz.

The biggest problem is in determining what is in copyright - see many other threads. Even if a song is not in copyright, the tune or arrangement may be.

In particular, you cannot even sing 'Happy Birthday to you', because it is still in copyright.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:20 AM

Well, in Australia, everything is automatically copyright once created - I assume you mean 'copyright not assigned and handled thru PRS'... in which case if the CD label stated that, it would create an interesting legal precedent...

Robin

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:45 AM

Robin:
Everything may be "copyright once created". The point with Traditional music is that it has ceased to be copyright. (Most countries now 70 years after death of author/composer)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:45 PM

Friday night and every things right for the weekend, got a date for half past three at the week end,Rog called Mick and Mick called Sue I made a dash into the loo, a few pints of Sams and every things right for the weekend.    THIS WEEK ANYWAY. NELLIES 1600hrs START.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: pavane
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 05:26 AM

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. It doesn't HAVE to be handled through PRS/PPL, and you could print that on the CD!

Maybe a whole new arena for songwriters, writing and recording specifically for pub use?

You do automaticlly own the copyright of anything you write yourself.

(Perhaps we could adopt the Bob Dylan approach, change a few words and the odd note, and claim the copyright? )

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 06:37 AM

Or maybe get a sence of humor. Or not

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:23 AM

Pupils to get anti-piracy lessons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4055753.stm

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:40 PM

"Coincidentally" a chap from the PRS called at the pub in Farlington on Thursday lunchtime to see what was going on as I think he felt they were owed money, and left a very well produced set of booklets and prices.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

Well, as Nick knows, I play most weeks at the Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington and I write my own stuff and own the copyright to it. But although I can do this legally, it won't be much fun if there is no-one there to listen to it! And equally, I wouldn't have much fun if no-one else can play and sing.

Nick is right - even if we don't like the answer to the question, we have to ask the brewery. And it would be nobody's fault for asking.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 05:49 AM

1. These days, a keyboard does not have to be a piano. Good portable keyboards are available.

Recent case-law has established that MIDI is 'recorded sound'. So the playing of these MIDI keyboards are both live music and recorded music, at the same time.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 06:23 AM

Heard on the BBC radio news this morning that the Bull's Head in Barnes, SW London, home of nightly jazz & blues for many years and Humnphrey Lyttleton's base: he plays there monthly, had been threatened with thousands of pounds of soundproofing by council demand after a neighbour, who's only been there a few months, complained about the noise of even acoustic sessions.
I suppose if she'd moved next to a railway line she'd have written to ask Railtrack to stop the trains. It's like people who complain about cockerels or church bells that were there long before their house...
(Stop ranting , Roger, it's thread creep. OK I'll shut up!)

RtS
(At least Jagz only has the railway to contend with!)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 06:55 AM

the Black Horse in Whitby has the same problems, (alledgely ! )

QUESTION why move next door to a pub if you don't want the noise associated with them ?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: pavane
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 08:19 AM

Shambles

I understand how MIDI FILES could be regarded as recorded music, even though they are more related technically to programs - they are lists of instructions to a sound module. I don't suppose the lawyers are competent to understand such things.

But did the case also cover MIDI Instruments? I fail to understand how a MIDI keyboard would produce recorded music whereas an identical instrument WITHOUT the MIDI OUT facility would not?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 09:03 AM

This has now been finalised by the appeal court in a case Toye-v-London Borough of Southwark after a failed request by the appellant for the matter to go before the House of Lords.

A precedent has now been set.The consequences of this precedent are:1)
The Kwizoke plus machine does provide pre-recorded sound. Therefore premises granted a Justices' On Licence cannot lawfully permit a person to sing songs or otherwise perform whilst accompanied by the Kwizoke plus machine (e.g. Karaoke sessions or live artist)2)

"Two live performers" - The exemption regarding the two live performers means that there must not be more than two live performers throughout the whole of the entertainment period and not as suggested by the appellant, "no more than two at any one time" HenceIf throughout the course of entertainment, three different soloists perform music, or a duo perform followed by a soloist, this will be classed as three live entertainers therefore a Public Entertainments Licence is required.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 07:20 AM

The Bulls Head in Barnes is also slap bang next to a railway bridge!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Baz
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:06 AM

As a regular at the Blacksmiths Arms pub at Spring Gardens near West Auckland (County Durham), I was amazed when, a couple of weeks ago, the TV and the sound system suddenly vanished. To be perfectly honest, the lack of TV doesn't bother me, I can watch that at home, but no music at all in the pub is a bit much, especially with Christmas and the New Year celebrations just around the corner. I fully agree with the comment that it's about time Samual Smiths pubs were dragged, albeit kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. Taking a stand against what the management considers to be an excessive increase in music licence fees is one thing, but surely the loyal customers without whom there would be no pub at all count for something. All they seem to be achieving is making the customer suffer. I also agree that even with a fee of £1000 per year, it is still pretty cheap at the price, little more than £20 a week. And incidentally, the comfort, cleanliness and general decor leave much to be desired too. I am very disillusioned with what is taking place at the moment, and will certainly be taking my custom elsewhere until the management come to their senses.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:12 AM

I looked at a forum for pub landlords/licensees recently [sorry i don't know waht its called, and i forgot to save it], and it mentioned on there that pubs pay £400 per month for Sky Sports TV, so the £20 a week music fee thing does not seem much compared to that.

I might have got the £400 a bit wrong, they might be proposing to increase it to £400, I'll try to find out.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:47 AM

Baz, hope this doesn't sound condescending but if there is no music you will soon learn what pubs used to be about, a few pints and conversation, I learnt tremendous amounts in pubs when I could hear others speak and some of the conversation/debates/arguments and out and out slanging matches I wouldn't have missed for the world. Sadly the introduction of piped music/juke boxes/TV/satellite/big screens has seen an end to this for the most parts. We would argue or discuss anything and everything e.g who is more important a Doctor or a Dustbinman ........... a doctor who cures you of disease or the dustbinman who take away your rubbish and prevents you getting one in the first place. I remember a furious debate about this in my local when I was about 19 and have never forgotton it.

Try it, it can be great fun

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:54 AM

Totally agreed oh hairy one! Who decided on my behalf that I really can't live without piped pop shite blaring at me wherever I go.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 11:57 AM

Would you object to piped Flamenco music Ted? The barmaid shaking her marracas.......................

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 12:29 PM

Which pubs that then?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: MuddleC
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:49 PM

-sorry, she can't even shake her marraccas', with or without music, its rhythmic moving...aaaiiieee -dancing! call the PEL Police

-stop that sinful dancing min

- I can't Henry, it's those Morris Dancers, their bells are driving me to distraction........ ohhhh those mighty sticks.....

-Min , Min stop it Min -eeuooooghhhhhh!

(enter Bluebottle, Captain of the East Finchley Morris) wh)

-Dance you devils, dance till your jingles fall off...

(enter PC Bloodnok)
-Hello, hello ,hello...... hello Bottle, you can't do this sort of thing you know , your men haven't got the right number of bells on their legs and they're not in the key of A, , now all of you show me your ID cards.............

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM

Here now, take this nice blue pill and bend down so I can hit you over the head with my night stick..

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 03:10 AM

"night stick" I've never heard it called THAT before!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 11:59 AM

You've led a sheltered life Ted.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: MuddleC
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 08:34 PM

yes, the friendly Bobbie's truncheon has being replaced twice now, first with the P24 side-handled baton, and because it didn't seem offensive enough when drawing it, the spring loaded telescopic ASP is now used .. coming soon, Tasers and Glock 9mm.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:49 PM

Nice Christmas present this...

Area manager came into Blacksmiths Arms, Farlington on Thursday and informed the manager that folk music was no longer allowed. I believe his reaction was "well you can tell them yourself because I'm not going to". So this wednesday looks like our last meeting there.

The word "fuck" comes to mind.

Still, on the plus side there are two other local pubs who are happy to have us. Being prepared is a good place to be.

Hopefully it is only our pub that is affected and others are not.

Seems weird business to me. They will lose £000's on this as not only will they lose their solid weekly wednesday trade but I dare say most of the regular business from those of us who used it as their main pub.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Wotcha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:54 AM

My God ... it looks like the UK is turning into Henrietta, Oklahoma.   Welcome to the Bible Belt, ya'll ...

Cheers,

Brian

Happy to FROM Oklahoma

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:34 AM

Well I for one would welcome the removal of televisions from pubs... the whole point of going to the pub for me, is to talk to my friends, not shout at them over the noise of whatever sporting event is happening on the big screen TV placed where the stage used to be.

And I welcome the 100th post!

I've worked in several pubs over the years, the most relaxing ones were those that had no juke box (or at least, no disco/heavy metal/rap or funk on it), no piped music other than 'classical ' (although there is now a 'Classical' Bar in London, which has a DJ, who plays 'classical hits' all evening -it's pretty good actually!), and those which had no TV in the main bar. As posted somewhere above, if I want to watch a TV, I'll do it at home.

LTS

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:38 AM

Nick

I am sorry to hear this. However, it was not unexpected and it it is vital that the exact reasons and extent of this are recorded. It is still unclear what the reasons are and what the chain's approach to the new Licensing Act is going to be.

As this legislation is being sold to us on the basic that it will encourage live music (in small premises) and folk session will not have to keep moving venues - it does not appear to be working.................

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:23 AM

Why didn't they just tax it like they do everything else?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:24 AM

Don't give the buggers any idea's !!!!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: MuddleC
Date: 30 Dec 04 - 10:59 PM

PLEASE BE AWARE THAT ALL MUSIC AND DANCING THIS NEW YEAR'S EVE IS BANNED.

THIS IS TO ENSURE PUBLIC SAFETY, TO SAVE THE RED SQUIRREL, COMBAT WORLD TERRORISM, CURE WARTS, COMBAT PLAGUES OF LOCUSTS, ENSURE THE JOBS OF SMALL FURRY PUBLIC SERVANTS CALLED HUMPHREY AND TO GENERALLY PISS PEOPLE OFF..

GOVT OF THE PEOPLE, NOT BY THE PEOPLE

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 31 Dec 04 - 03:48 AM

Another bit of thread creep. A local pub (Bracknell) has been told it can have it's juke box but if people dance to it they'll need an extra licence! (This is according to the Ascot News which isn't always accurate!)
A review of London music pub the Troubadour in paper over Xmas described the regular audience as "musos". I suppose I qualify as they are defined as grey-haired,overweight, middleaged men in faded T-shirts!

RtS

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,bill.b
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:26 PM

PRS/PPL want their cut Ok .But why take all tv's (normal tv's )not sky out.this licence has already been paid for or by the tenant/manager and will cost no extra.Or is this just another cost cutting exercise.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Rawmarsh Progressive (Titanic)
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 04:08 AM

Ballroom,sequence,linedancing nights have all been cancelled & moved to other venues ( not Sam smiths)Weekly live artistes will no longer find work here. The bookings for all weddings,dico`s private parties have been cancelled. Suicide or what!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Pistachio
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:18 AM

What indeed!



'Silence'



?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 08:43 AM

How does it effect a musical ring-tone should a mobile phone go off in a Sam Smith's pub? And, if you go outside to take the call does the ban extend to the beer garden. I know people hate mobile phones in public but they are now a fact of life. Are wind-up musical toys for muppets also banned in beer gardens if that is the case or would people prefer screaming kids spoiling their Sunday afternoons out in summer because they can't be soothed by their favourite toy? Pity the poor landlord trying to enforce the rule by wresling a young mother to the ground to confiscate the toy. The poor woman embarrassed by showing her draws in public. That chairman's got a lot to answer for!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:45 AM

We've lost our jukebox too, and we're gutted. It's an estate pub in Sheffield and the music wasn't so loud you couldn't have a chat, it just added to the atmosphere. It's a bit wierd without it. I'm from Beverley originally and can't imagine Nellies without the live music either.

For anyone who wants to write to the brewery to make their feelings known, the address seems to be:

Humphrey Smith
Sam Smiths Brewery
Tadcaster
North Yorks
LS24 9SB

I realise they've made this policy on economic grounds, and fair enough. However, if enough people choose to go elsewhere as a result, it won't work - so it might be worth pointing that out.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:04 PM

Oliver Cromwell would be pleased to know that he finally won.

Or is our Humphreythe reincarnation of Ollie?

SCARY!!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:45 PM

Has anyone actually spoken to anyone from Sams on this or had feedback from them or tried to move the thing onwards?

PM me if you have anything other than hearsay as it would be good to move things on.

I have a really simple view on this that I would like THE POSSIBILITY OF ONE DAY PLAYING MUSIC IN A SAM SMITHS PUB WITH EVERYONE BEING HAPPY with it

ie Sam Smiths/PRS/local council/local landlord-manager/ THE CUSTOMERS (lest we forget...)


Whoops forgot us - the players! We'll always survive. It would be a nice option of doing it in a Sams pub

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ossonflags
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:54 AM

Well judging from my experiance at one of the oldest of smiths outlets on saturday night, I think the chances of playing music in ANY of his pubs are pretty remote.

It would be in no ones intrest to enter into slanging matches with individuals,so I will tell you the unembellished story;

Our band "Punch the Horse" were due to play "Nellies" in Beverley that night.This was a long standing private booking in the upstairs room.The people who booked us were given no indication that the gig would be cancelled as they were of the understanding - as we all were - that smiths would honour all private functions up to the 31st of January.

On arrival at the pub I tackled the relief manager about the problem and after a heated debate I was informed by him ;"I am only acting on instructions from the top, I do not work for smiths it is more than my job is worth to let you play, I am very sorry,,but no comment" he then went on to say that if he allowed us to play it would upset the Folk Club and the Jazz club.I do find this very strange as both organisations had been given ther marching orders a few days before !

What happened next? well dear friends the show must go on.We left in a marked manner taking with us fifty,yes fifty, other people and found some one who welcomed us with open arms, so us and the fifty other people had a splendid night playing music and drinking vast amounts of bear.

Will smiths ever allow music to be played in any of his pubs? I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ET
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:56 AM

I wrote some time ago to Humphrey - reply - a deafening silence - rather like his pubs. I wonder what will happen when profits sink to the floor? Is this a brewery with shareholders or a private fiefdom?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:18 AM

I think a private fiefdom, apparently he also owns most of Tadcaster and has some unusual views of who can rent his property (alledgely)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ossonflags
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:56 AM

Hello, Raggy,,will you be at our gig at the Whitters?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:09 AM

Who let Ian Hislop in? Allegedly.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:33 AM

Sorry folks, thread drift ...... what date Michael

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: El Dano
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:21 PM

According to the Beverley Guardian theres a comedy turn on at Nellies this week Is this happening elsewhere on planet Humphrey

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

I rang Mr Smith at home last night (well it seemed like a sensible thing with press, radio etc phoning me) and spoke to his wife and he rang me back this morning about 7.40am

We had a brief conversation that went pretty much like this -

"Mr B?"
"Yes"
"It's Humphrey Smith. We really must stop discussing
this music thing. There is nothing more to be said,
the decision has been made. People will just need to
live with it"

And that was it.

Article in the York Evening Press coming soon.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:58 PM

'God' has spoken!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:31 PM

Well since nothing hangs in the balance and nothing we can do will change his mind-we really must keep up the pressure jut for the sheer hell of it!!!!! I did write on the message board at the tadcaster site but mysteriously it has disappeared!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:32 PM

Linda -

The fact that the policy has changed means it can change again.

You're right that people should keep the pressure up- but for the reason that this change has not happened in a second and it won't get change in a second.

The question is always whether it's worth fighting for.

If it's REALLY worth fighting for then time isn't an issue.

If the beer had been £1.85-£2.00 would it be an issue?

I can only speak from my end of things. If the Blacksmiths Arms + Ben & Sharon + all the fun we had was still there then it would have been regardless of prices and everything and I'd be battling harder than I am at the moment.

Empty pubs mighty quickly lose their interest and become buildings without people however lovely they are. Usually get sold, flattened and developed.

Who cares?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:29 PM

Can you just buy some six packs and meet in the hall of your local Catholic church? That's what we Americans would do.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 04:07 AM

Leeneia

As Hilaire Belloc, a French 19th Century writer (educated in Birmingham and Oxfor, the original one's in England) said about English hostelries "when you have lost your pubs, you may drown your empty selves, for you will have lost the heart of England"
The few American's I know who have spent time over here truly love the English pub, come over and see for yourself, if you already haven't, a village hall is not an alternative

Cheers

Raggy

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Carol
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 04:57 AM

Hi
I've written to Mr Humphrey but no reply so far and my reaction at present is that I won't go into a Sam smith's pub until they change their policy. This will probably mean that Idon't go into a Sam Smith's pub again - have you found an alternative venue to the Blacksmith's yet Nick? Happy New Year by the way.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:52 AM

Happy New Year Carol hope you had a good break. STILL haven't sent you your tape back as I have now mislaid your address - perhaps you could PM it to me.

We have moved to the Highwayman at Sheriff Hutton (about 30 yards from where I live!) and meet there at 8.15+ every Wednesday. So far so good.

Starting to think about organising something for when the weather gets better for another weekend either there or another pub close to here. More of that anon

Hope your other half is keeping well

Regards

Nick

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: El Dano
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:59 AM

Raggytash
I think that you are too dismissive of village halls, lets be honest just how good are pubs these days. Theres certainly a few gems and they are worth having
( Up to a month ago both White Horse Hengate and the Blacksmiths in Farlington would have been on my "gem" list)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:39 AM

Andy,
    It's all right for you, you've got three bloody great sheds kitted out with beer pumps, heating and even fridges! Raggy actually lives in a B & Q 10'x8' deluxe shiplap "Monarch" shed. He likes to go to pubs to stretch his legs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:08 AM

10 x 8 ! Luxury ........... mine's smaller than a dog kennel, and when I say dog kennel, it was only a little dog

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: BB
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:12 PM

In a way, it's a good job that this whole thing with Sam Smith's happened now, rather than after the new Licensing Act comes into operation. I don't know how many people realise it, but when the entertainment part of the licence is applied for, it has to be stated what entertainment and when it's going to take place - that means if it's not already in a schedule, it will cost to get that schedule changed. What happens when a club or session gets summarily dismissed from a regular venue? Where are they going to find another one - at short or even long notice?

Also, as regards Sam Smiths, according to a 'Restoration' programme on BBC4 the other night, they own a very old building in Bath, and another in Bristol which they have just let run to rack and ruin. Since they bought them, they have done nothing to them. I think the local government in Bristol has brought in a Compulsory Purchase Order on that one, rather than let it deteriorate further, especially in an area that they're trying to improve.

I thought this guy was supposed to be running a business. He seems to have a very short-sighted way of doing it!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:47 PM

Barbara

You're either a big fish or a small fish.

I'm a small fish. Mr Smith is a big one.

I have no idea how Mr Smith runs his businesses but he is not an idiot.

I have an enormously short sighted view of the world.

I want Sam Smiths to re-welcome music to their pubs.

And there has to be a way to do that that suits everyone.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:50 PM

Scroll up the thread and work out how seriously he should take us?