BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM

Could be worse. You could be Republican AND a member of the Bin Ladens or the Saudi Royal Family!!!

Saudi Arabia was one of only 5 political jurisdictions in the entire World outside of the USA to vote in favour of re-electing George Bush on the worldwide internet poll!

The others were the Canadian province of Alberta, Poland, Israel, and some other godforsaken little despotic country that I can't remember at the moment (probably up to their ears in debt to Amerika).

George Bush probably has a lower per capita approval rating in the World at this point than Hitler or Mussolini did back in 1942. And for rather similar reasons...

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:01 PM

Not only that, LH, but we got lots of Halliburton in the province now. To quote BD, "Money doesn't speak, it swears."

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:06 PM

Right!   I think the other country was Uruguay. Think of it as a tiny "coalition of the bribed and corrupted".

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM

As long as the "Ten Suggestions" are a symbol of an official recognition of one or more religions over other religions, it is an unconstitutional practice. It doesn't matter how people re-word things to make it sound neutral. The Ten Commandments are not neutral. To have them posted in courtrooms is unconstitutional because it is a recognition of the Judeo-Christian religions over all other religions. And as long as discrimination results from this recognition in the courts, and I can tell you from my own experiences in family court, having been descriminated against because I am not a Christian, the issue is far from being a minor one. Yes, choose your battles carefully. I choose to fight discrimination. This battle is one I have chosen very carefully.

People keep saying that the "ten suggestions" are universally good principles to live by, and in this way people try to render them neutral. This is simply not the case. Some of the Commandments are just fairly good ideas for living a good life. But some of them are specific to certain religions and have nothing whatever to do with morality or ethical living, or even just being good. Here are the particular commandments that are problematic for people who are not of the Judeo-Christian religions:

1. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
   
2. "You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
   
4. "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:44 PM

I think this is all a load of tripe. Its not what the guy was saying in the first place.

When I was a kid growing up in in England in the 1950's we had Conservative governments - okay they weren't the red in claw and wild in rhetoric chappies that you seem to admire. But they were conservative. they stood for capital over labour. there was a lot of talk about 13 years of conservative misrule.

I remember reading a book about charles dickens around that time. I was twelve. Dickens despised politicians. he said it mattered little who ruled as long as all people - not just politicians - but all of us behave decently towards each other.

I was 12, and I thought Dickens was naive.

then came a period of Labour government. There were changes of emphasis, but they were still in the same morally compromised business of running a country in a world full of completely horrible bastards. The starving kids with arms missing seem to be a constant in this equation.

I've been a socialist all my life. I believe in socialised medicine, a regulated economy, a strong trade union movement and I should prefer a to live in a republic.

But the guy who came and visited me most when my wife became disabled and lifted my spirits was a card carrying conservative.

It really doesn't matter how you think things should be organised. Most systems would work if could just behave ourselves better. All of them would work better.

Your opinion about a set of abstractions like society is not worth insulting or hurting another human being over.

Its that second commandment thats the killer - you must love your fellow man.

Even if he's a republican and a sinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:31 AM

I'm not sorry for who I am or what I believe. I'm proud. If you're not proud of being Republican, you can change that. In real life I get along with most everyone. On Mudcat, I can voice my thoughts and opinions whether others agree or not. So can you.

I do not go to church but feel that I know God and have been guided by the teachings of Jesus. I do not see how you can reconcile your belief in Christ and the actions of George Bush. I will continue to question your beliefs but that doesn't mean I don't like you. I don't even know you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:24 AM

One of my fav. bumper stickers was on a church-lady's car: "When Jesus said "love your enemy" I don't think he meant kill them."

Also, don't be too hasty at apologising for your beliefs, etc.:

    The Politics of Victimization

    [Mel Gilles, who has worked for many years as an advocate for victims of domestic abuse, draws some parallels between her work and the reaction of many Democrats to the election.-- Mathew Gross]

    Watch Dan Rather apologize for not getting his facts straight, humiliated before the eyes of America, voluntarily undermining his credibility and career of over thirty years. Observe Donna Brazille squirm as she is ridiculed by Bay Buchanan, and pronounced irrelevant and nearly non-existent. Listen as Donna and Nancy Pelosi and Senator Charles Schumer take to the airwaves saying that they have to go back to the drawing board and learn from their mistakes and try to be better, more likable, more appealing, have a stronger message, speak to morality. Watch them awkwardly quote the bible, trying to speak the new language of America. Surf the blogs, and read the comments of dismayed, discombobulated, confused individuals trying to figure out what they did wrong. Hear the cacophony of voices, crying out, "Why did they beat me?"

    And then ask anyone who has ever worked in a domestic violence shelter if they have heard this before.

    They will tell you, every single day.

    The answer is quite simple. They beat us because they are abusers. We can call it hate. We can call it fear. We can say it is unfair. But we are looped into the cycle of violence, and we need to start calling the dominating side what they are: abusive. And we need to recognize that we are the victims of verbal, mental, and even, in the case of Iraq, physical violence.

    As victims we can't stop asking ourselves what we did wrong. We can't seem to grasp that they will keep hitting us and beating us as long as we keep sticking around and asking ourselves what we are doing to deserve the beating.

    Listen to George Bush say that the will of God excuses his behavior. Listen, as he refuses to take responsibility, or express remorse, or even once, admit a mistake. Watch him strut, and tell us that he will only work with those who agree with him, and that each of us is only allowed one question (soon, it will be none at all; abusers hit hard when questioned; the press corps can tell you that). See him surround himself with only those who pledge oaths of allegiance. Hear him tell us that if we will only listen and do as he says and agree with his every utterance, all will go well for us (it won't; we will never be worthy).

    And watch the Democratic Party leadership walk on eggshells, try to meet him, please him, wash the windows better, get out that spot, distance themselves from gays and civil rights. See them cry for the attention and affection and approval of the President and his followers. Watch us squirm. Watch us descend into a world of crazy-making, where logic does not work and the other side tells us we are nuts when we rely on facts. A world where, worst of all, we begin to believe we are crazy.

    How to break free? Again, the answer is quite simple.

    First, you must admit you are a victim. Then, you must declare the state of affairs unacceptable. Next, you must promise to protect yourself and everyone around you that is being victimized. You don't do this by responding to their demands, or becoming more like them, or engaging in logical conversation, or trying to persuade them that you are right. You also don't do this by going catatonic and resigned, by closing up your ears and eyes and covering your head and submitting to the blows, figuring its over faster and hurts less is you don't resist and fight back. Instead, you walk away. You find other folks like yourself, 56 million of them, who are hurting, broken, and beating themselves up. You tell them what you've learned, and that you aren't going to take it anymore. You stand tall, with 56 million people at your side and behind you, and you look right into the eyes of the abuser and you tell him to go to hell. Then you walk out the door, taking the kids and gays and minorities with you, and you start a new life. The new life is hard. But it's better than the abuse.

    We have a mandate to be as radical and liberal and steadfast as we need to be. The progressive beliefs and social justice we stand for, our core, must not be altered. We are 56 million strong. We are building from the bottom up. We are meeting, on the net, in church basements, at work, in small groups, and right now, we are crying, because we are trying to break free and we don't know how.

    Any battered woman in America, any oppressed person around the globe who has defied her oppressor will tell you this: There is nothing wrong with you. You are in good company. You are safe. You are not alone. You are strong. You must change only one thing: stop responding to the abuser. Don't let him dictate the terms or frame the debate (he'll win, not because he's right, but because force works). Sure, we can build a better grassroots campaign, cultivate and raise up better leaders, reform the election system to make it failproof, stick to our message, learn from the strategy of the other side. But we absolutely must dispense with the notion that we are weak, godless, cowardly, disorganized, crazy, too liberal, naive, amoral, 'loose', irrelevant, outmoded, stupid and soon to be extinct. We have the mandate of the world to back us, and the legacy of oppressed people throughout history.

    Even if you do everything right, they'll hit you anyway. Look at the poor souls who voted for this nonsense. They are working for six dollars an hour if they are working at all, their children are dying overseas and suffering from lack of health care and a depleted environment and a shoddy education. And they don't even know they are being hit.

    Mel Gilles at 07:31 PM on November 07, 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Dewey
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:56 AM

For Clarity:

Though I am Republican and Christian, I do not see myself as a Republican Christian. (i.e. I do not mix my Republicanism with My Christianity) These two are seperate and rightfully so.

Liberal Christian, Catholic Christian, Liberal Jewish. Conservative Jewish.

These are philosophies and voting patterns to me only, many would correctly say these labels divide us.

Also however these individualities can be constructive as well if tolerated. this is the "real" issue.

I do not always disagree with my liberal friends or my "so called" conservative president George Bush (the biggest liberal spender in human history).

Sometimes philosophies intermingle, in the end people vote on what is important to THEM.

For me (and I think the majority of Americans THIS TIME AROUND was the following issues: National Security and Values.

Had it been Peace time and the Democratic Candidate ran on moral traditional family issues and a robust economy with limited spended and no overseas shipping away of our jobs (the last being unlikely regardless on the candidate) I would have chose the Democratic Candidate.

Phisophically I believe in Conservatism, but beliefs can change based upon needs and changes to the country as a whole.

Let's show some tolerance anyway toward others, no matter which way we choose to vote at the polls on election day.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM

I give up on the "cookie" business.

But, as I said before, the larger question should be which fights are worth it, and which result in just energizing the other side.

Mudcatters have to start realizing, and now would not be a minute too soon, that Mudcat sentiment on several issues, specifically on organized religion, is not shared by most of the country.

It appears, for instance, that 40% of the HISPANIC vote went to Bush this time. Hispanics are the fastest growing ethnic group in the US. You do not want to write off 40%, nor, if you are a liberal Democrat, to get them accustomed to voting for Republicans. When people first become citizens, they tend to be proud of the fact, proud to say the Pledge of Allegiance (no problem with "under God"), proud to serve in the armed forces, etc. And a lot of new citizens are conservative in many ways.

Trying to get "under God" removed from coins, the Pledge of Allegiance--(yes, I know "under God" is a recent addition, and that the Pledge itself started, I believe only in the 1930's).----- etc. wins you no points with most Americans. They are perfectly happy to sing Christmas carols at school, to see the 10 Commandments at their courthouse, etc. They don't see the 10 Commandments at the courthouse as the first wedge of Taliban USA.

Parts of Pennsylvania, for instance---- (in fact, large swatches between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh), --- are sometimes called "Alabama, Pennsylvania". Also large parts of Ohio are conservative. Minnesota and Michigan have lots of religious conservatives. Don't write them off.

I'm not even talking about the huge expanse of Red states in the south and west.


I don't consider myself religious. I certainly don't go to church regularly. But I do consider myself politically aware. If I were Hillary's advisor, the first thing I'd tell her is to start going to a church regularly, if she's not already--obviously one that reflected her beliefs.   Actually I think it's too late for her for other reasons--her image is too set in the public mind. Remember how joyful Doug R. was at the prospect of her running.

Remember the only 2 Democrats who have won since 1968? Both Carter and Clinton were seen in the public mind as religious men, (albeit in Clinton's case as more Mary Magdalene than Jesus.) Also both were Southerners.

If you want to win the US presidency, what you probably need is a white male southerner who is seen as religious.

There are lots of good issues for a liberal southern Democratic male to run on--if the true believer liberals don't knock him out in the primaries. The thing to do is make common cause with conservatives, especially new citizens. Run on the minimum wage, on the
environment, on corporate malfeasance, on the fact that this "economic recovery" has lop-sidedly benefited the rich.

Don't let the Neanderthals who now run the Republican party (and, unfortunately, the US now) typecast Democrats as Godless weaklings.

One of Bush's best applause lines was when he would come into virtually into any small town and say "John Kerry says the heart and soul of America is in Hollywood" (where Whoopi Goldberg and some others had obscenely trashed him at a Kerry fundraiser) " But I say the heart and soul of America is right here in (name of town)."

Worked like a charm.


An interesting letter to the Wall St Journal (12 Nov 2004) encapsulated it: ( Democratic) "party intelligentsia regard patriotism as hopelessly antiquated....they regard devout Catholics, gun owners, Orthodox Jews, and Texans, among others...as strange objects to be examined on a laboratory slide".

Don't do it, if you want to win elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:05 AM

Why is it so hard for many conservatives to understand when I say " I love my country but I hate what my government is doing."? George Bush is NOT America.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:25 AM

Thank God Kendall is right--George Bush is not the US.

But attacking organized religion is not a good idea politically. Don't require your candidates to expunge religion from public life.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM

Me again.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:40 AM

It doesn't matter to many of us if criticizing religion isn't politically popular--it is a necessity in this Dark Age of lies, propaganda, and misinformation.

And BTW, if you want to know how the US feels about religion, I suggest the Pew Trust's information on it, which shows there is a huge disconnect between the polling numbers where people claim to be religious, and actual church attendance.

Church goers are a distinct minority of the US population. When I've time, I'll go look up the numbers again. I've posted them before. Most of this "Americans are deeply religious" crap is media hype, not reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM

A couple of weeks ago, the Sunday morning political TV program "Meet the Press" featured guest clergymen from opposite sides of the political spectrum -- Al Sharpton and two "Christian Right" leaders (one them might have been Jerry Flawell -- memory fails to serve).

Rev. Sharpton -- someone I have *not* always admired or agreed with -- delivered the best line on this topic I've heard in a while. I'll paraphrase, of course:

"I believe in Jesus; I'm saved. But the Jesus I believe in lived his life as an example for the rest of us. He asked people to follow him, but did not coerce them to do so. He did not try to wield the power of the state to force people to act according to his wishes, as you people do."

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:45 PM

I respect anyone who is Conservative and Christian as long as they are not anti-semetic.

I certainly respect them more than an atheist.

And especially an atheist who is a far left liberal.

They are the ones who are destroying this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:06 PM

Its me who's destroying the country, I sneak round at night and break a few bits off when you're not looking........

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:01 PM

"Why did they beat me?" That's rather a sneaky play on words in the piece kat pasted in. There's a big difference between the situation of someone who has been physically assaulted and someone who has been defeated. Using the word "beaten" here seems to me a way of implying more similarity than is really approriate.

Beating and getting beaten is an essential part of electoral politics.   But the other type of beating is not an essential part of anything.

................

As for the Ten Commandments, why not have a compromise and just put in the last seven? I don't think many people would quarrel with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Fed up with the whole lot of you!
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM

Oh GROW UP ALREADY!

I'm so tired of hearing you complain....ALL OF YOU!

When do people stop acting like children and start taking responsibility for who they are and what they say?

You know something? I don't give a flying pig's whistle if you're a Christian or a Republican, or a Pagan, or a Democrat, or anything else...just stop all these pissing contests!

Pull em all out, take a good look, and then get on with being adults.
Or maybe you ARE acting like adults and this is appropriate behavior.

If so, I'm on the wrong thread. I'm going to have to go play with the simians on Mudcat. They only throw their crap at those they don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:08 PM

GUEST,Fed up with the whole lot of you, I recommend hormone treatments. I know you'll feel much, much better after you get your hormones straightened out.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:11 PM

The guest who likes long names to stand behind. Been a bit of that lately. Something in the water, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:41 AM

Hey, weelittledrummer! Are you really one of the ones destroying our country? Me too!!!

I think what Dewey was saying in his original post was he wants all us children to either agree with him or shut up. You know, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Let's stick that up on all the courtroom walls, too! Also, "be nice."

McGrath you're kidding, aren't you, about putting the Ten Commandments Minus Three on courtroom walls? If you're not, then I'd like to propose some other alterations. I have some issues with number five. Actually, I wouldn't mind adding a few, like Thou Shalt Not Own an Autoharp If Thou Wilt Not Tune It, or Thou Shalt Not Allow Your Dog to Kiss You In the Mouth When Other People Can See It.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:25 AM

I have to say I was disappointed with John Kerry when he said something like, "I'm Catholic and go to Mass and was an altar boy and all that, but it won't have any effect on how I serve as President." John F. Kennedy said the same thing, more-or-less.
I wish they had said something like, "I'm Catholic, and that's a major reason why I take social justice issues seriously and why I place a high value on human life. I don't believe in abortion myself, but I don't think the United States can or should legislate an end to abortion. I do think we should help women find alternatives to abortion and better methods of birth control."

I think that if you have religious faith that means something, then it ought to have an effect on your entire life.

Maybe that's not what they thought, though. Maybe they didn't care about life or social justice. Maybe all they cared about was winning an election.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:50 AM

Joe--

Too bad Kerry didn't have you advising him. That sounds like something he would endorse.

I believe that in a debate he did say directly that he believed in preserving Roe vs Wade.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Alan Forbes
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:17 AM

Bottom line, religion sucks. If "god" wanted self-grandisement he would have bought a sex doll.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:26 PM

For some it's dildos and vibrators, for others, dolls. They can all be put away in the closet when you're done with them. That saves having to deal with real people. Sad, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/yr.jpg

Sorry I'm Republican and Christian...

being Christian and Republican are not mutually exclusive but being Republican and apologetic is.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:38 PM

Do you think this could the Dewey that got Lucky Luciano locked up.

Or the librarian

or the foggy Dewey

i dunno about everybody else but I'm getting sorry he's a republican and a Christian. Still on the face of it he should be happy. His bloke won the election and its nearly Christmas.

perhaps we could cheer him up?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

Remember the term "Liberal Republican"? Once upon a time, not so long ago, there were a number of them. They were magnificent people who provided a good balance in Congress. I suppose John Lindsay (mayor of New York) was the best-known among them. I guess it was Ronald Reagan's managers who cleaned most of the liberals out of the Republican party. That was about the same time that the "Conservative Democrats" became Republican. I didn't think much of the "Conservative Democrats" because many of them were old, Southern racists - but maybe they provided a balance that held back some of the polarization that we have now.
I wish politicians would start thinking about the people and the nation (and the world), and pay less attention to the polls and to agendas and ideologies.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:41 PM

Brucie, excuse me, but did you go to the right thread? Sounds like you were aiming for the mudcats singles thread with that last post...then again...maybe not.

SueB, "Thou Shalt Not Allow Your Dog to Kiss You In the Mouth When Other People Can See It. " Has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever read! Thank you!!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:56 PM

I wish they had said something like, "I'm Catholic, and that's a major reason why I take social justice issues seriously and why I place a high value on human life.

He actually did say something very similar to this in one of the debates. Maybe he should have stressed it more than he did though.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Stu
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM

One pof the most interesting aspects of this whole debate is the need for Americans to belong in one camp or the other - the middle ground seems pretty much unoccupied. This obsession with labelling yourself is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to any meaningful dialogue between the two sides (for instance all that bollocks about Democrats being unpatriotic for not supporting the war).

One thing I think many people have learnt here in Blighty since Blair got in amid all the high hopes and cheers is that we cannot trust our politicains. Ask people here whether they're Labour, Tory or Lib-Dem and you'll get replies like "er, I don't see myself as one or the other". There is so little between the parties these days, (with the possible exception of the Lib -Dems), most people have lost interest.

As for religion and politics, that is fine by me as long as you take some responsibility for how you cast your vote (do you think the ten commandments the literal word of God?). If you don't like the idea of personally blowing the limbs off Iraqi children with you cluster bomb, don't vote for someone that is happy to do that for whatever reason - if you do, accept you are partially responsible for their suffering, and at least have the balls to stand up and say it

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM

Joe, possibly Kerry and JFK did care about "life and social justice" and just put these values higher than the rules of any one religion. You seem quite willing to pick and mix for yourself - with, for instance, that quaint compromise that gays should be allowed to marry, but "maybe" not in church. (Would that restriction apply equally to Christian gays, married by gay clergy, or are there no such things?)

Carol, one or two of the commandments could offend Christians too. The one prohibiting "graven images" presents an obvious difficulty for the orthodox and Roman churches (necessitating some wondrous exercises in semantic gymnastics down the ages). How they are set out and numbered is largely a subjective exercise - ten being achieved usually by compositing either a couple at the beginning or the last two.

Among them is one in which God allegedly proclaims himself "a jealous god" (I love the indefinite article!), who doesn't want any other gods being worshipped. I don't see how anyone can abide by these commandments and still respect the followers of other religions. The message is clear: only the god of the Jews - with or without the two add-ons that make up the Christian triumvirate - is acceptable. Anyone who believes this is surely obliged to spread the word to those who believe anything else, so that they have a chance to convert and be saved.

Quite why Pagans, Sikhs etc would be offended only by post-1960 courtroom displays of the decalogue is something Joe didn't explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:37 PM

Well yes a jealous God, but one with a house that has many mansions. I'm sure he'll fit you in somewhere.

I think faith is a little bit like what Hemingway said about grace under pressure and courage in battle. Sometimes it is in our natures to grant it God, sometimes it is withheld - is there a single army that never ran away in the face of the enemy, whose courage didn't waver. Faith in God is literally believing the impossible - anybody who says their faith never wavers is a big fibber.

If faith is something that you think happens if you thump your chest, and I say I've got it - I think you rather miss the point of the miracle of faith.

Still thats what make the sermon on the Mount such an impossible set of injunctions. Judge not lest ye be judged, and here I am sitting in judgement on all those evangelicals - telling them they miss the point .....

If you are bought up a Christian, you know this. there is a God who loves you ...Democrat, Republican, agnostic, atheist, no matter.

Its a confusing business, and you'd have to be God to know all the ins and outs. You're not, so relax.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:52 AM

Hi, Peter - I have no regrets about having voted for Kerry. I think he's a good man; and I really like his balance and common sense, and his thoughtful, non-ideological way of presenting his ideas. However, I thought his answers on the religion issue were not quite as satisfying as his other answers. In general, I thought his way of speaking was refreshingly frank and clear. I got the feeling that he may have had a bit too much pressure on the religion issue and may have been too cautious. I'd like to hear what he really thinks on the religion stuff, and I don't think he had the opportunity to express that.

Remember, Peter, that I don't look on religious faith as a code of rules and doctrines that a person has to swallow hook, line, and sinker. I see faith as a way of thinking and living in relationship with God and with God's creation. I think the churches and society in general have to do some serious thinking and redevelop their theology of sexuality - both heterosexual and homosexual. I think the conservatives are too rigid, and too eager to stick their noses into other people's bedrooms. I think the liberals are too suavely politically correct to see that there are real issues that must be explored if we are to preserve the idea of sex and marriage as something sacred.

I think that if two people of opposite sexes or the same sex are willing to commit themselves to each other in a lifelong relationship, the state should recognize that as marriage. I also think that those churches that are ready to accept gay marriage, should perform and bless gay marriage ceremonies. I would gladly attend such a ceremony if I had gay friends getting married.

Most of the churches just aren't at the point of accepting gay marriage. Too many of their members just wouldn't understand, and performing gay weddings would tear those churches apart. In a wedding, a church blesses a marriage in the name of God and of its members. If a large minority of members of a church are not ready to bless such a marriage, then it isn't time yet to perform such marriages in that particular church. This fits my thinking that religious faith is not imposed on people. When the people are ready (with a little nudging, perhaps), then will be the proper time - but the people will never be ready until the churches develop and teach a solid and sensible theology of sexuality that addresses the realities of life in the 21st century.

And yes, I suppose your stuff on the graven images makes sense - IF you as a nonbeliever insist that a fundamentalist interpretation is the only valid interpretation of scripture. I think that's imposing an inflexibility upon scripture that was never intended by the authors. I can't understand why so many nonbelievers look on the Bible through fundamentalist eyes.

As for displays of the ten commandments before and after 1960, I'd say 1960 is an approximate date - and perhaps the dividing line should be a little later. Through the 1950's, Judeo-Christian practices were an integral part of our culture and history - for better or worse. Many of those practices are still present as a natural part of our language and culture. I think it's wrong to cleanse those things from our culture, to sanitize life so no one need be offended by religion. That failure to recognize and respect the religious aspect of our culture is just as intolerant as a failure to recognize the racial and cultural identities of others. Tolerance demands a respect and perhaps even a celebration of all aspects of our diversity.

However, sometime between 1960 and 1980, extremist Christians began to use their religious practices as weapons, and attempted to impose their views on all of society. There's a perfect example of it on the front of the courthouse near Mudcat Central in West Chester, Pennsylvania - a rather new metal Ten Commandments sign on the front wall of the courthouse. It looks like a "No Parking" sign, but with the Ten Coomandments on it instead. It doesn't fit the history or the architecture of the building at all - it was posted by some Christians trying to use their beliefs as a weapon. Same with the Ten Commandments memorial that was erected in the Supreme Court of Alabama. If it had been there a hundred years, it would be a shame to remove it because it would have become part of our history and culture - like statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan that the Taliban destroyed.

What about the names of cities all over the United States? Do we have to rename St. Louis and Santa Monica and San Francisco and Santa Cruz? Should we ban Christian Brothers brandy from liquor stores? Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. I don't like it.

I think it's wrong to take offense at somebody wishing you "Merry Christmas," too - unless they're doing it to proves some sort of Christmas superiority.

Happy holidays, Peter.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Wusie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:58 AM

Hmmmm.....I tried being a Christian once, but found it totally impossible in this world to follow the teachings...might have been easier if i'd found even ONE person whose example I could follow.
As for being Republican , I realise this all relates to AMERICA (doesn't just everything these days) but I'd just like to say it's hard being a Republican in a country where the Monarchists word the referendum so that half the Republicans back off and vote to stay in subjegation. Also very scared that our Prime Miniature has us so tied to Dubya. Who says only "Third World" countries have rigged elections? Our lot just cover up the rigging better. Oh, alright, maybe Oz IS a 3rd World country. Sometimes I wish the weather was nicer in New Zealand.
Why does America think America's Way is the Only True Way and condemn all who are not with America...."if you are not with me, you are against me?...now where did I read that before?????

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Cretinous Yahoo
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:55 AM

I've never learned anything from someone with whom I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

weelittledrummer said: "Faith in God is literally believing the impossible" and that of course means it is impossible rationally to argue against it. Neat. But I've often wondered about the disciple Thomas: would he be classed as a believer, or non-believer? He did believe the impossible, but only after seeing the physical proof of it (allegedly).

Joe, I understand your point about 1960. I suppose it's analagous with the unease I feel about a campaign in the UK to pardon 300 or so soldiers executed (without any proper hearings) for supposed cowardice during WW1. Descendents deserve to have the stygma lifted, but the standards of the day were applied, however criminally wrong they were. Maybe it is enough to learn from the past without having to rewrite it.

Your position on gay marriage makes sense, up to a point. But it embraces the knowing perpetuation of an injustice, just to avoid a church tearing itself apart. I can't buy that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:20 AM

Ebbie- Ron Olesko started a thread a few months back on serious reasons why conservatives supported Bush.   The thread was treated with respect and well written comments without the mean spirited diatribe and venom usually included in most threads.

Go back and read the thread if you are truly interested in a serious echange of ideas.   There have been numerous conservative responses to the questions you posed in a number of mudcat threads.   If you have not seen them you have not been looking- or more likely- your mind may be too partisan to accept any differing opionions.

For the record I am a folkie, conservative, environmentalist, Jewish, Bush supporting republican (except on his overspending and border policies)   I wonder how many of those profiles does Zogby or Gallup have in their flies.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:05 AM

Do you support his invasion of the wrong country?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM

I should leave God to judge the exact status of Thomas, and everybody else come to that.

Judging thats his problem... We got enough of our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:47 AM

"Thats his problem" Self-inflicted, for some reason known only to himself.