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BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian

Dewey 05 Dec 04 - 06:54 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Dec 04 - 07:37 AM
jimmyt 05 Dec 04 - 08:14 AM
RichM 05 Dec 04 - 08:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Dec 04 - 09:24 AM
Bobert 05 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM
Amos 05 Dec 04 - 09:43 AM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 09:51 AM
van lingle 05 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM
mack/misophist 05 Dec 04 - 10:10 AM
Ron Davies 05 Dec 04 - 10:14 AM
artbrooks 05 Dec 04 - 10:17 AM
Amos 05 Dec 04 - 10:24 AM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 04 - 10:33 AM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 10:54 AM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,from Minnesota 05 Dec 04 - 11:54 AM
Ron Davies 05 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM
Ron Davies 05 Dec 04 - 12:07 PM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 12:08 PM
artbrooks 05 Dec 04 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Mudjack 05 Dec 04 - 12:37 PM
Ebbie 05 Dec 04 - 01:31 PM
CarolC 05 Dec 04 - 01:39 PM
Once Famous 05 Dec 04 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 05 Dec 04 - 01:47 PM
Ron Davies 05 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM
YorkshireYankee 05 Dec 04 - 02:42 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 05 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM
Once Famous 05 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Frank 05 Dec 04 - 03:29 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Dec 04 - 04:12 PM
CarolC 05 Dec 04 - 04:19 PM
Amos 05 Dec 04 - 04:55 PM
akenaton 05 Dec 04 - 05:00 PM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM
Once Famous 05 Dec 04 - 06:30 PM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 05 Dec 04 - 06:50 PM
Peace 05 Dec 04 - 06:54 PM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 05 Dec 04 - 06:56 PM
Chief Chaos 05 Dec 04 - 07:01 PM
Peace 05 Dec 04 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 05 Dec 04 - 07:12 PM
Joe Offer 05 Dec 04 - 07:16 PM
GUEST 05 Dec 04 - 07:21 PM
Peace 05 Dec 04 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 05 Dec 04 - 07:22 PM
Peace 05 Dec 04 - 07:24 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM
Peace 05 Dec 04 - 08:01 PM
Little Hawk 05 Dec 04 - 08:06 PM
CarolC 05 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Dec 04 - 10:44 PM
dianavan 06 Dec 04 - 01:31 AM
katlaughing 06 Dec 04 - 03:24 AM
Dewey 06 Dec 04 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 06 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Kendall 06 Dec 04 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 06 Dec 04 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 06 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 06 Dec 04 - 08:40 AM
PoppaGator 06 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM
Once Famous 06 Dec 04 - 12:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Dec 04 - 01:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Dec 04 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Fed up with the whole lot of you! 06 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM
CarolC 06 Dec 04 - 03:08 PM
Peace 06 Dec 04 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,SueB 07 Dec 04 - 02:41 AM
Joe Offer 07 Dec 04 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 07 Dec 04 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Alan Forbes 07 Dec 04 - 06:17 AM
Peace 07 Dec 04 - 12:26 PM
Donuel 07 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Dec 04 - 12:38 PM
Joe Offer 07 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM
Ellenpoly 07 Dec 04 - 01:41 PM
CarolC 07 Dec 04 - 02:56 PM
Stu 08 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 08 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 Dec 04 - 02:37 PM
Joe Offer 09 Dec 04 - 02:52 AM
Wusie 09 Dec 04 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,Cretinous Yahoo 09 Dec 04 - 08:55 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 09 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Larry K 09 Dec 04 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 09 Dec 04 - 11:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 10 Dec 04 - 07:47 AM

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Subject: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Dewey
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:54 AM

I truly enjoy and respect everyone here on the Mudcat despite the many differences of opinion on various topics including Religion and Politics. I sincerely try to respect the religions of other people as well as their political persuasions.

It would be totally awesome, but mostly un-realistic for the people gathered here, to do the same for the Republicans and Christians who post here as well.

One can have an honest and intelligent disagreement with someone without sounding condescending and elitist, and militant.

I don't hate liberal intellectuals or other world religions, so why should Republican and Christians be barred from discussions, and be chastised for even voicing their opinion?

There is after all such a thing as free speech, and one merely should say in a polite tone, "I disgree with you, and for the following reasons, but let's still be friends"

As A Conservative, I have many liberal friends that I DEEPLY admire. Yes, even as a conservative I admire their liberalism. I know a Friend of mine that has done some wondeful work for charities and civil rights, as well as promote justice and health care benefits for the elderly.

It may surprise you that are liberal, but sometimes even we conservatives do great things, like promote decency standards, individual responsibilty, lower taxes, freedom etc.


I generally try to avoid posting on these subjects as they become very, very heated around certain individuals.

Please mudcatters, grow up!

Let's disagree and still get along without trying to change, hate or defeat someone else. Let's see our difference as a strength and keep an open mind to another point of view, even the Dreaded Christian Republican one.

We conservatives don't hate you! So why do you go around intolerant of us, we seldom post our point of view to begin with.

We as conservatives never deny you your point of view, we in fact cherish it, even when we do not always agree.

Dewey (the Monster)

(Who obviously is an un-informed narrowed minded dangerous Mudcat Christian and Republican)LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:37 AM

Oh come on you can't expect to win a crushing victory and win popularity contests. Only Tony Blair does that, and he has to pretend to be a liberal.

If you walk round saying I want to conserve all this nastiness, because its terribly good for you, and furthermore I have the wooden plunger about my person to stuff it up hither, thither and even places where you never dreamed you'd like it - the as PJ Rourke says, you need a damn good haircut to get away with it - Tony's got that, or he used to.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:14 AM

Hey Dewey, shall we hold hands and sing a chorus of You are NOt ALone? I feel precisely the way you do and have tried to express it much the same way many times. Maybe you will be successful with this attempt.,Anyway, buddy, hang in there. There are several here that will agree to disagree and offer their friendship even though you are on opposite poles in terms of political and religious thought.

WHat occurs to me is that we are a lot closer (left and right) than most people think when you really break a subject down and discuss the pure values of it. ANy way please keep coming and help break down the barriers that seem to stereotype us into a non educated, beer swilling, Nascar and wrestling fan redneck who either is too mean or too stupid to change the way we are. Well, I gotta run, time for church and the AUtolight 500 will be on 'safternoon. grin   jimmyt


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: RichM
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:52 AM

Maybe after a little time has passed... Call again in 4 years... ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:24 AM

"We conservatives don't hate you!"

I'm glad if that's true. But the impression I get from pretty well everything I read and see on the box is that, in the USA at any rate, "conservatives" and "liberals" really do hate each other in a rather frightening way.

Maybe it's just that the haters speak out more loudly and persistantly, and get into positions of influence.

A lot of the issues that seem to be taken as definitive are issues that really shouldn't be anything to do with party politics anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM

Well, well, well...

First of all, while not stated, but clearly implied is that Christian and Republican go hand in hand... They don't...

I have made no bones about my Faith in Jesus Christ here in Mudworld and have actaully been accused of interjecting it too often and I am as far to the left of the Repub fraternity as you'll find 'round this joint... And further to the left that most of the Dems as well, I might add.

My problem with the Repub fraternity is that many of it's members aren't Repubs. They are merely radical followers of George Bush, who is no Repub. himself...

And my problem with this radical Bush regime is that when we look at its policies they are so much in conflict with the teachings of Jesus. I have a real problem witrh that. I also have a real problem with folks who say they are Christian who somehow never got beyond the Old Testament, which seems to include just about everyone I've met or heard from the Chrisian Right... But these folks will have to settle up with God somewhere down the road so that's their problem... What makes it my problem is when they use their fake-faith to ram anti-human, anti-earth policies down the world's throat... Jesus warns us over and over about these kinds of folks yet their seems to be a lot of folks who are buyin' it...

This Christian ain't...

Peace.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:43 AM

Dear Dewey:

The critical point around which these things hinge is communication. You seem like a good and intelligent feller and Lord knows the world needs more of those. If you are willing to state your views on the issues and stay in communication without resorting to ad hominem and categorical arguments, then I think you should post as much as you want.

You and I both have a weakness in that we have some sort of desire to have our descriptions of the world get across and be accepted, and there have been times when I have gotten assertive about things. And you as well. It's a wide spread human weakness, I guess.   But we can work on it.

JimmyT is a fine feller and he communicates well. Why, he's so friendly you wouldn't know he was a Republican until he said so.:>) And he has found himself a whole mess of friends around here, and no reason you shouldn't do so as well,.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:51 AM

Dewey's from Minnesota. Ring any bells??? He is a lot easier to take than his other incarnations. But if you read his posts, you see he falls out of character every now and then. It's hard to hide your true self.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: van lingle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

Well said McGrath, the Bush campaign kept invoking the L word as if it did stand for something immoral and un-American. I didn't hear the Kerry bunch toss the same type invective at conservatives. Further, Republican leadership in both houses of congress is supressing Democratic participation in the legislative process to a degree that is unprecedented. Even to the point of denying Dems attendance at committee meetings. Consequently when I read posts from mudcatters who think we should be all warm and fuzzy with the opposition I say tell it to the Bushites.
Dewey, anyone, left or right, who ventures an opinion around here has his ass hanging out in the breeze and can expect to get it bitten from time to time. This place, like the outside world, is full of all kinds of people so expect all kinds of behavior. I might good-naturedly and respectfully suggest that you "grow up". vl


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:10 AM

What Amos said. And also Van Lingle. As for what McGrath said; we don't hate the Republicans as much as we fear them and what they're doing to our country. That's much worse than hate.

Traditional conservatives and generous hearted Christians are not an issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:14 AM

I'm a registered Republican but I fought George Bush tooth and nail and I'm still convinced that he won primarily by being a classic demogogue---that is stoking fear of "the other"-- and especially the completely wrong notion that the US is safer under him than under Kerry. I'm convinced he is a disaster for the US, and possibly the world. It's particularly despicable in the name of freedom he is killing many civilians in Iraq, and that, at the behest of some US firms, he has suspended 2 programs to secure nuclear material in Russia. Then he has the nerve to jawbone others about nuclear proliferation, while refusing to something about it at its source.


Also ,a lot of people, including me, have a big problem with the idea that any one religion has a monopoly on "The Truth". To the degree Bush alleges that Christianity does this--and he does this to a large degree--he and his supporters are dead wrong, and need to be told so over and over. I'm not saying this is you Dewey, but if the shoe fits....

Having said that. I also believe there is a lot of rabid anti-religion sentiment on the Left, and that this is very evident on Mudcat. Many people, possibly burned by their own early personal experiences with organized religion, have distorted the intent of the Founding Fathers, clearly stated in the Constitution. While the evident intent was to avoid a state-sponsored religion,--- with such manifestations as the Test Act,--- as the colonists had experienced in the Church of England, it was by no means the goal to expunge religion from public life. From freedom OF religion, the goal of many on the Left has become freedom FROM religion.

It is absurd, and obviously counter-productive for liberals, as demonstrated in the recent disaster for liberals in the US election, to harp on things like removing the 10 Commandments from courthouses. That sort of thing does nothing but inflame religious bigots on the Right. Such threads as "Is Religion A Form of Mental Illness?" show the suicidal tendencies of the Left. Until liberals can look at religion in general more tolerantly, they are doomed to wander in the political wilderness----since the vast majority of (voting) Americans do not share the Left's view on religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:17 AM

As a liberal (and former Christian), I am certainly in favor of decency standards, individual responsibility, lower taxes and freedom. How could anyone think these are not liberal values? I also believe in an individual's rights to make one's own decisions. I do think that a line must be drawn before one person's or group's standards and definitions are imposed upon another person/group. There is a trait in human nature that seems to lean toward imposition; this has been manifested by various totalitarian governments (eg, Fascists, Nazis, Soviet "communists," etc), nationalist groups, and practitioners of assorted fundamentalist religions (certainly not all Christian).

I saw an interesting bumper sticker the other day. It had an American flag on it, and the text read "This is not a religious symbol."


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:24 AM

I just gotta say I love this place. Wide-spectrum, high-band-width, robust, user-friendly, threaded process segregation, what more could you want?!!! LOL


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:33 AM

Christianity and liberalism are not mutually exclusive... :-) (as has already been pointed out above this post)

Jesus was an arch-liberal of his time, in that he proposed new ways of dealing with things and was virulently attacked by the arch-conservatives of his own day (the priestly Jewish hierarchy) and arrested by the conservatives of his day, the Jewish clergy and the Roman authorities. He recommended mercy and forgiveness. He recommended loving one's "enemies". They didn't. They recommended torturing and killing one's enemies.

I mean, really, how liberal can you get? :-) Jesus would not have voted for George Bush or the Iraq war, in my opinion. Not a chance.

Now Dewey and JimmyT are both fine with me, and so is Doug R, and so is Two Bears. I don't agree with them a whole lot on political issues, but I like them as human beings. C'est la vie.

Remember: The chief aim of political parties and politicians is not to serve people, but to divide them! It's divide and conquer all the way. They propagandize kids from the earliest age to divide up along party lines and hate each other. That's the game. The public plays, the politicians win. Too bad.

All this liberal/conservative mythology and the stereotypes that go along with it are just serving to confuse people and set them against each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:54 AM

If Republicans and Christian Republicans are fine with Democrats, why didn't a single Republican, including the current Senate majority leader, show up to wish Tom Daschle all the best recently when he was recognized for his years of service on the floor of the US Senate?

I mean, that in itself is about as petty, mean, and insulting as it gets, is it not?

When the leaders of the Republican party act thus, why should we expect anything different from their followers who vote for them and defend them and their bad behavior vociferously?

One more thing I'd like to straighten out here, along the lines of what Bobert and artbrooks said. And that is, the majority of Republicans DO NOT DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS CHRISTIAN OR AS MORAL VALUES VOTERS. That is but a 25% minority of the 50% of voters who voted for Bush. And only roughly half of all eligible voters actually voted in November.

So Bush no more has a mandate than Clinton did.

That's right folks. When you actually look at the numbers (and the "final" numbers are just now coming out on the election) it is a very small minority indeed who would describe themselves as Christian Republicans or moral values voters.

Which means that the vast majority of Republicans aren't really interested in having religion injected into politics. This administration has quite a few of them to serve as examples of Republican politicians exploiting the religious right in the same way Republican politicians have exploited the racist south. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between fundamentalist Christians and white racists in the south, though very few people will come right out and say. But that is what the Republican Party's Southern Strategy has been all about since Nixon.

The majority of Republicans are no longer just in the South, or are rural voters. The majority of Republicans nowadays are ex-urban whites, fled to the suburbs in their SUVs, to raise their children in wealthier "good" schools away from "those people" in the cities. If they pay organized religion any attention at all, it is merely lip service for protective coloration in their business clubs, like the Rotarians, or to make suburban society connections in their local brand spanking new suburban super churches.

Christianity isn't a deeply held belief system or moral values system to them. It is a means to their greedy, money slumming, social climbing ends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM

Well said Dewey,

All the best


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,from Minnesota
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:54 AM

Guest 05 Dec 04 - 09:51 AM and 11:33 AM, just what are you going on about?

I've never made any secret of being from Minnesota, but just how is it that you have surmised that Dewey is from Minnesota?

Maybe we should let Dewey speak for himself, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM

Wonderful--perfect example of the "Guest" system--shows how ridiculous it is.

2 diametrically opposed views--each one by "Guest"---within 39 minutes of each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:07 PM

Little Hawk--


Would that it were so---but in fact the liberal-conservative split is not entirely mythology---it is not conservatives who are alleging that religion is a form of mental illness, nor trying (hard) to remove the10 Commandments from courthouses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:08 PM

So Ron, bitch at Max about the system, not the people using it the way it is set up to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:25 PM

Ron Davies: I'd be interested in a valid reference to an alleged liberal (whatever a "liberal" is) who thinks that religion is a form of mental illness. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a person who embodies all of the traits that allegedly define liberals. I think that if you were to list all of the supposedly liberal and conservative characteristics, virtually every person would find things in which he or she believes in both columns.

Personally, I have no problem with the Ten Commandments being placed in courthouses, as long as they are in the context of a history of law and are given no greater (or lesser) precedence than, say, the Code of Hamurrabi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Mudjack
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:37 PM

Born Again leftist Christian might best describe my commitment and love for Jesus Christ, since the recent political air aligns all born again worshipers as right wing radicals. The Republican well greased political machine has done a superb job at convincing the populace that liberalism is a dirty word and has no moral values.
I am ready to give up the label that best describes my love and spiritual commitment to having a personal relation to Christ my Saviour and simply call myself a "friend" AKA Quaker.
Conservatives who think "lower taxes", is a conservative who makes way to much money, lower taxes for the rich and privatise government BUT spend more so Corporate America can profit and watch the National debt skyrocket through the sky. What is conservative about that?
Dewey, I am sad that you have to apologise and say you are sorry for your Christian beliefs, Being Born Again, my serious objections to Pres.Bush is his (admin too) RIGHT and RIGHTIOUS WAR.
As for your political preferences, I can understand you being sorry for that. s-m-i-l-e... but don't change, we leftest pigs need someone to pick on and throw barbs at.
Mudjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 01:31 PM

I fully agree with what Amos said, above: "If you are willing to state your views on the issues", etc.

So far, I have rarely (never?) heard a self-described Republican Christian, Bush-supporting, Iraq-war supporting, deficit-supporting, -in-favor-of-antagonizing-the world person actually explain WHY they are the above.

* What is it that you actually like about Bush? Just saying that "he says it like it is and sticks to it" is not an explanation. Tell me in what way you think his interpretation and his stance are productive and maybe I will understand.

* Tell me WHY you think we are in Iraq and what we have realistic hopes of accomplishing there.

* Tell me WHY we are piling up debt that we have absolutely no hope of diminishing in our lifetimes? Tell me why we are loading it onto our children and our grandchildren? Don't explain it by way of the recession, 9/11, the Iraq war or even Clinton. We started the deficit spending long before any of those. (Remember, we had all that extra money and so we were giving it back to the people via tax cuts? And then, remember, we were in a recession and therefore we needed more tax cuts? Based on that rationale, if we had NO money being paid to our governments we would be getting along swimmingly.

* Tell me WHY we decided we don't need to worry about friends, long time, understanding and supportive as they have proved to be over the years?

That would be a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 01:39 PM

There is nothing "conservative" about lowering taxes when there is a huge budget deficit and a collosal national debt. That sort of behavior is totally the opposite of conservative.

On the subject of the 10 commandments, it is not anti-religion to have them removed. To have them hanging in courthouses gives preference to only the Judaeo-Christian religions, and discriminates against Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Animists, and any number of other religions. So to have the 10 commandments hanging in courthouses does most certainly violate the US Constitution by promoting certain religions over others.

And I must say I certainly disagree with the notion that Republicans and/or people who call themselves "Conservative" are not vilifying Liberals, either here in the Mudcat or in the US media generallly. I do not consider myself either a Liberal or a Conservative, and I have been observing the behavior of both groups. While some "Liberals" certainly have engaged in their share of mud slinging here in the Mudcat and in the US media, when it comes to hateful language and behavior, Republicans and people who call themselves "Conservative" have engaged in the worst bullying and hate-mongering behavior I have ever seen in a political context. Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh being two excellent examples of this. Liberals don't have anyone who even comes close to the level of hate-mongering these two engage in against "Liberals".

Having said all of that, I actually do agree with most of your opening post, Dewey, with the exception of the part about Republicans not engaging in hateful behavior towards "Liberals".


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 01:43 PM

Ebiie, do you also need to be told when to eat and when to go to the bathroom?

Don't you just want to hear what you want to hear?

Listen to nationally syndicated talk show hosts Michael Savage and Dennis Prager.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 01:47 PM

Dewey,

All the best to you---and I mean that---and I am neither of the above! As strident and as offensive as I was politically to some here in this forum, I pull back, and eventually let fly another arrow.

In THIS Democracy, you people won the lection. As much as I hate that, I don't hate you. I will do what little I can to defeat you folks in the next go round. Then, as always, we will see what goes down.

This is what I think Democracy ought to be about. I, personally, have no plans to support ANY insurgents---here or anywhere--inless the ACLU and Amensty International fit that description. Live and let live---.   Is what is----until it isn't.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

1)    Anybody who doesn't like the Ten Commandments posted in a courtroom, is, as far as I know, free to look in another direction. As far as I can tell, we have not yet been asked to recite them while in court.

2)    The larger point is:   liberals should learn to pick their fights. This one is not worth fighting. When you do, you do nothing but energize the Neanderthals, and give their rabble-rousers more ammunition to do what they did this November. Timing is also important---the well known reactionary Barney Frank, for instance, was trying to slow the pressure towards immediate full-scale homosexual marriage this year. He could see what was coming, but was unable to damp the fervor of his own true believers.   We saw the result in November.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:42 PM

Dewey – you're right: there are a lot of arrogant, unreasonable, name-calling, obnoxious, holier-than-thou Liberals, Democrats and non-Christians out there. There are also a lot of arrogant, unreasonable, name-calling, obnoxious, holier-than-thou Republicans, Conservatives and Christians out there.

Although I tend towards the Lib, Dem, Agnostic view(s) of things myself, and have uncharacteristically (for me, at least) violent fantasies regarding Dubya and his cronies, I can see all too clearly that even folks who feel the same way I do can be guilty of arrogance, ... etc and intolerance of other views. Unfortunately, in far too many cases, the milder, "reasonable" folks who dare to express a "disagreeable" opinion find themselves attacked by extremist jerks – of all flavours – who seem to take pleasure in belittling, humiliating and demonising anyone expressing an opinion they don't approve of.

I think the more reasonable, gentler people actually have more in common with each other – no matter what they believe – than they do with the cretins (even those on the "same side") who are so insecure that they feel compelled to verbally assault "the enemy". My theory is that extremists – by their very nature(s) – are more likely to be "vocal" here (or anywhere) than their milder brethren, and may appear to be more representative than they actually are. In other words, you are more likely to get a response from an abusive extremist than from someone in the quieter (as opposed to silent), more reasonable majority.

Human nature being what it is, I wouldn't count on Mudcat ever being a totally "safe" place to express one's opinion, whatever it is (more's the pity). But I'm sure I'm not the only one who respects opposing opinions – and all those who express them in a reasonable, non-aggressive way – and there are probably way more of us than it seems – 'cos we simply don't see the point in wasting precious time and energy being nasty to people who don't agree with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM

I don't dislike Republicans, Christians, Democrats, Jews, Libertarians, Atheists, Greens, Buddhists or people of any other faith or creed.

I do not dislike people who have arrived at different conclusions than I have about the same issues, as long as they've actually taken the time to consider them.

I do dislike people who have not taken the effort to even think about the issues, but are willing to blindly accept whatever they are told. The last time I checked, two plus two equalled four, but there are a substantial number of people in the US who are more than willing to believe that two plus two equals five as long as the right person tells them it's so. Was it Spiro Agnew who said, "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."?

I also dislike people who believe that all people who feel a certain way about issue "A" automatically feel a certain way about issue "B". My daughter is very active in the anti-war movement. She is also pro-life. Yet, at every peace rally she attends she's heckled by shouts of "baby killer" by people who assume that anyone who is against the war is, by default, pro-choice. It's particularly ironic since she often has my seven-year-old grand-daughter at the rallies - a child who was born because my daughter chose not to have an abortion when she could have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM

The problem here is that when you do express them in a reasonable, non-aggressive way, you start getting the uptight ones who start posting as guests giving you the third degree and insults.

It's a losing situation for the politically correct liberal lunatics want it their way or no way and think they have some kind of ownership here. So I gave up early on when I saw their agenda.

It's just more fun to give it to them both barrels and watch the squirming begin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:29 PM

Hi Ron Davies,

Have to disagree with you.

1) The issue of the Ten Commandments in the courthouse isn't a religious issue as much as it is a political one. The Theo-gogues of the Taliban Christian community want their way with the amendment separating Church and State. This is the nose under the camel's tent.

2) I think that us Liberals pick our "fights" very well. We are just beginning to articulate our moral values which have to do with compassion in government programs for the poor, elderly, environment, and distaste for pre-emptive wars. These are moral issues that resonate for us. As to the Separation of Church and State, this is a strong moral conviction that one religious view should not be able to dominate others.
Homosexual marriage is a moral value too. Our morality says that two consenting adults who desire to have a monogamous committed relationship should be allowed to do so without government interference regardless of their sexual preference. The issue was hijacked by the taliban-christians who used it for political purposes as well as the cynical Karl Rove. It's time to stick up for our "moral values" in the face of bigotry, prejudice and political cynicism.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:12 PM

all getting a bit convoluted isn't it?

basically he's saying. he's conservative. he's christian. he doesn't feel it stops him being a nice guy.

let's take his word for it.

I suppose we could ask for examples of niceness as a bon fide. but he could lie.

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he turns up on the ten most wanted. I will take a dim view of this chap in future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:19 PM

Anybody who doesn't like the Ten Commandments posted in a courtroom, is, as far as I know, free to look in another direction. As far as I can tell, we have not yet been asked to recite them while in court.

When the 10 Commandments are posted in US courts, it is a defacto recognition of the religious edicts of the Judeao-Christian religions over those of other religions. It is a form of descrimination. And the truth of the matter is that Pagans, for instance, are discriminated against in family court, just for being Pagans. It is unconstitutional. If you believe in and support the US Constitution, you will not press for keeping the 10 Commandments posted in US courtrooms. If you promote the display of the 10 Commandments in US courtrooms, you promoting a violation of the US Constution. That's un-American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:55 PM

Frank:

Bravo. You have neatly articulated what has been at the back of my mind for weeks, not quite able to crystallize into articulate thought.

Moral values? How about tolerance, appreciation of differences, allowing others to mind thier own business, not prying or seeking to control obsessively, refusing to ruin others' lives because of who they are?

How about believing that humans of different stripes can co-exist comfortably, even profitably?

How about...dare I say it..."Do unto others as ye would have others do unto you?

How about even, for a really moral value, "Thou shalt not kill?"

Too much to ask for?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:00 PM

Do you people in America really feel no anger towards those who have taken you to a disasterous war ,and those who have supported their ideas .

I suppose you can rationalise them as dupes or fools, and therefore not complicite, but this wont wash.

How many times have you watched folk on the left try to explain to Doug or Teribus or Jimmyt, why the war is wrong,and how many civilians and children are being killed or injured as a result of that war.
They dont listen,because they dont see those children as real people,they dont see their brothers and sisters beyond the boundaries of their own families.
These are not stupid people ,they choose to hold these beliefs.

Personally ,I am still haunted by the memory of the Iraqi childrens hospital containing dozens of children all minus arms ,legs, or eyes.
And all served with much more than their share of pain.

I hate the people who created this obscenity, and those who apologise for or support them.
Their hurt feelings will be as nothing compared with the pain of the Iraqi children...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM

Hey Martin Gibson, could you bring Dewey back? He is so much more reasonable (except when he blows his cover).


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:30 PM

Dewey went back to practicing law with those other scoundrels in his lawfirm: Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe. I think Richard Bridge might work for them, also.


And Carol C., I almost fell over in my chair, but I agree with you. There is no room for The Ten Commandments in a courtroom. It is and has proven to be unconstituitional.

Take it from one who's people was actually given the Ten Commandments.

Ron Davies blows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:48 PM

Re: 10 Commandments in courtrooms---you can choose to see them, as I believe Woody Allen put it, as the 10 Suggestions. It would do nobody any harm to see them there, and if people started perhaps observing a few that would be progress.

As to the "nose in the tent" theory, it's hard to believe that there aren't enough super-vigilant guardians of religious freedom-- (like about 90% of Mudcatters)-- to make sure it doesn't progress to the next stage of theocracy. This sounds amazingly like yet another conspiracy theory. As I've said before, the Left has them and the Right has them. They don't help carry the discussion forward, and this particular one did some damage to real causes----like minimum wage, Roe vs Wade, the environment, etc., this time around.

As I said earlier, it's important to pick your fights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:50 PM

Hmmmmm.--that last post was from me---don't see how that happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:54 PM

Dewey,

I too am sorry you're Republican and Christian. It gives Christianity a bad name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:55 PM

Martin--

Can't you ever use an organ above your waist?

For instance, haven't you yet realized that I am in favor of the 10 Commandments, which, I suspect, you are also.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 06:56 PM

Lost the $%(*&&^(*) cookie again.

I give up--no more wasting time on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:01 PM

My friend and office partner was a self admitted republican. I have never labeled myself as either republican or democrat. He told me some time ago that he thought that we were on either side of a very thin line, that I was a little more liberal than conservative. That's fine with me as we got along famously and on some issues he was on my side of the fence and sometimes I was on his.

His take on the ten commandments in the courtroom was that if said judge couldn't live with the tenets of any other religeon being in the courtroom next to the ten commandments then the commandmnets shouldn't be there.

My take on abortion is that we should be held responsible for our behavior and that means we shouldn't have abortion. However I also believe that a young single female is pretty much incapable of raising a young baby on her own and that this calls for at least some civic responsibility on our part to ensure that child grows up healthy and well taken care of. You can't just tell a fourteen year old to have the baby and then "You're on your own!". Unfortunately we seem to be dismantling the very programs that would help. Not surprisingly he agreed with me.

I don't hate republicans or the President. I do however feel that some of their views are simplistic (black and white). It's quite a bit more complicated than that.

Share with us your views. I for one certainly won't be the one who starts the name calling. I will listen and post back. We may never agree but it should stay civil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:05 PM

That's my motto for nine more days: CIVIL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:12 PM

Dewey, I'm sorry you are too.

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:16 PM

I call myself a "radical moderate." I'm a Christian (Roman Catholic) and I go to church regularly and lead a Bible study), but I'm not one of THOSE Christians (who don't think I'm Christian or Catholic at all).

When I'm with Republicans, I irritate them by opposing capital punishment, and insisting that we have to protect the environment and control urban sprawl and make sure everybody has health coverage, and raise enough taxes to cover the money government spends. I get the Democrats mad at me when I say we can't force business into bankruptcy by shouldering them with unfair obligations, and that we shouldn't be wasting our time trying to purge every vestige and mention of religion from our culture. And I get (so-called) Christians and everybody else mad at me when I say I think gays should be able to get married - but maybe not in church; and that although I think abortion is not a good thing, we shouldn't be trying to force women's choices by legislation.

So, I don't make anybody happy, or at least I don't bring happiness to the people who do all the talking from both sides. I think, though, that most people really are in the middle, and they're sick of being pushed around by the ideologues of both sides with their agendas. Isn't government supposed to serve the people, and not just the loudmouths of the party that happens to be in power?

One other thing: about those ten commandments - I think that if they were posted before 1960, they're historic and should be left where they were posted. If they were posted after 1960, they most likely were posted as part of somebody's political agenda, and they should be taken down. But keep the community Christmas tree (but not the manger scene); and if December 25 is a holiday, call it "Christmas."

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:21 PM

Joe--

The 10 Suggestions are still good ones, no matter when posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:22 PM

Until folks begin to interpret them, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:22 PM

&^%$&()*^---again---I said I wasn't going to continue on this and then I did--and still didn't have a cookie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:24 PM

That wasn't really clear. Sorry. "Well, what He really meant to say with, "Thou shalt not kill" is . . . . Churches and their followers like to do that lots. (Well, He didn't really mean . . . .) IMO of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM

Could be worse. You could be Republican AND a member of the Bin Ladens or the Saudi Royal Family!!!

Saudi Arabia was one of only 5 political jurisdictions in the entire World outside of the USA to vote in favour of re-electing George Bush on the worldwide internet poll!

The others were the Canadian province of Alberta, Poland, Israel, and some other godforsaken little despotic country that I can't remember at the moment (probably up to their ears in debt to Amerika).

George Bush probably has a lower per capita approval rating in the World at this point than Hitler or Mussolini did back in 1942. And for rather similar reasons...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:01 PM

Not only that, LH, but we got lots of Halliburton in the province now. To quote BD, "Money doesn't speak, it swears."


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:06 PM

Right!   I think the other country was Uruguay. Think of it as a tiny "coalition of the bribed and corrupted".


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM

As long as the "Ten Suggestions" are a symbol of an official recognition of one or more religions over other religions, it is an unconstitutional practice. It doesn't matter how people re-word things to make it sound neutral. The Ten Commandments are not neutral. To have them posted in courtrooms is unconstitutional because it is a recognition of the Judeo-Christian religions over all other religions. And as long as discrimination results from this recognition in the courts, and I can tell you from my own experiences in family court, having been descriminated against because I am not a Christian, the issue is far from being a minor one. Yes, choose your battles carefully. I choose to fight discrimination. This battle is one I have chosen very carefully.

People keep saying that the "ten suggestions" are universally good principles to live by, and in this way people try to render them neutral. This is simply not the case. Some of the Commandments are just fairly good ideas for living a good life. But some of them are specific to certain religions and have nothing whatever to do with morality or ethical living, or even just being good. Here are the particular commandments that are problematic for people who are not of the Judeo-Christian religions:

1. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
   
2. "You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
   
4. "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:44 PM

I think this is all a load of tripe. Its not what the guy was saying in the first place.

When I was a kid growing up in in England in the 1950's we had Conservative governments - okay they weren't the red in claw and wild in rhetoric chappies that you seem to admire. But they were conservative. they stood for capital over labour. there was a lot of talk about 13 years of conservative misrule.

I remember reading a book about charles dickens around that time. I was twelve. Dickens despised politicians. he said it mattered little who ruled as long as all people - not just politicians - but all of us behave decently towards each other.

I was 12, and I thought Dickens was naive.

then came a period of Labour government. There were changes of emphasis, but they were still in the same morally compromised business of running a country in a world full of completely horrible bastards. The starving kids with arms missing seem to be a constant in this equation.

I've been a socialist all my life. I believe in socialised medicine, a regulated economy, a strong trade union movement and I should prefer a to live in a republic.

But the guy who came and visited me most when my wife became disabled and lifted my spirits was a card carrying conservative.

It really doesn't matter how you think things should be organised. Most systems would work if could just behave ourselves better. All of them would work better.

Your opinion about a set of abstractions like society is not worth insulting or hurting another human being over.

Its that second commandment thats the killer - you must love your fellow man.

Even if he's a republican and a sinner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:31 AM

I'm not sorry for who I am or what I believe. I'm proud. If you're not proud of being Republican, you can change that. In real life I get along with most everyone. On Mudcat, I can voice my thoughts and opinions whether others agree or not. So can you.

I do not go to church but feel that I know God and have been guided by the teachings of Jesus. I do not see how you can reconcile your belief in Christ and the actions of George Bush. I will continue to question your beliefs but that doesn't mean I don't like you. I don't even know you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:24 AM

One of my fav. bumper stickers was on a church-lady's car: "When Jesus said "love your enemy" I don't think he meant kill them."

Also, don't be too hasty at apologising for your beliefs, etc.:

    The Politics of Victimization

    [Mel Gilles, who has worked for many years as an advocate for victims of domestic abuse, draws some parallels between her work and the reaction of many Democrats to the election.-- Mathew Gross]

    Watch Dan Rather apologize for not getting his facts straight, humiliated before the eyes of America, voluntarily undermining his credibility and career of over thirty years. Observe Donna Brazille squirm as she is ridiculed by Bay Buchanan, and pronounced irrelevant and nearly non-existent. Listen as Donna and Nancy Pelosi and Senator Charles Schumer take to the airwaves saying that they have to go back to the drawing board and learn from their mistakes and try to be better, more likable, more appealing, have a stronger message, speak to morality. Watch them awkwardly quote the bible, trying to speak the new language of America. Surf the blogs, and read the comments of dismayed, discombobulated, confused individuals trying to figure out what they did wrong. Hear the cacophony of voices, crying out, "Why did they beat me?"

    And then ask anyone who has ever worked in a domestic violence shelter if they have heard this before.

    They will tell you, every single day.

    The answer is quite simple. They beat us because they are abusers. We can call it hate. We can call it fear. We can say it is unfair. But we are looped into the cycle of violence, and we need to start calling the dominating side what they are: abusive. And we need to recognize that we are the victims of verbal, mental, and even, in the case of Iraq, physical violence.

    As victims we can't stop asking ourselves what we did wrong. We can't seem to grasp that they will keep hitting us and beating us as long as we keep sticking around and asking ourselves what we are doing to deserve the beating.

    Listen to George Bush say that the will of God excuses his behavior. Listen, as he refuses to take responsibility, or express remorse, or even once, admit a mistake. Watch him strut, and tell us that he will only work with those who agree with him, and that each of us is only allowed one question (soon, it will be none at all; abusers hit hard when questioned; the press corps can tell you that). See him surround himself with only those who pledge oaths of allegiance. Hear him tell us that if we will only listen and do as he says and agree with his every utterance, all will go well for us (it won't; we will never be worthy).

    And watch the Democratic Party leadership walk on eggshells, try to meet him, please him, wash the windows better, get out that spot, distance themselves from gays and civil rights. See them cry for the attention and affection and approval of the President and his followers. Watch us squirm. Watch us descend into a world of crazy-making, where logic does not work and the other side tells us we are nuts when we rely on facts. A world where, worst of all, we begin to believe we are crazy.

    How to break free? Again, the answer is quite simple.

    First, you must admit you are a victim. Then, you must declare the state of affairs unacceptable. Next, you must promise to protect yourself and everyone around you that is being victimized. You don't do this by responding to their demands, or becoming more like them, or engaging in logical conversation, or trying to persuade them that you are right. You also don't do this by going catatonic and resigned, by closing up your ears and eyes and covering your head and submitting to the blows, figuring its over faster and hurts less is you don't resist and fight back. Instead, you walk away. You find other folks like yourself, 56 million of them, who are hurting, broken, and beating themselves up. You tell them what you've learned, and that you aren't going to take it anymore. You stand tall, with 56 million people at your side and behind you, and you look right into the eyes of the abuser and you tell him to go to hell. Then you walk out the door, taking the kids and gays and minorities with you, and you start a new life. The new life is hard. But it's better than the abuse.

    We have a mandate to be as radical and liberal and steadfast as we need to be. The progressive beliefs and social justice we stand for, our core, must not be altered. We are 56 million strong. We are building from the bottom up. We are meeting, on the net, in church basements, at work, in small groups, and right now, we are crying, because we are trying to break free and we don't know how.

    Any battered woman in America, any oppressed person around the globe who has defied her oppressor will tell you this: There is nothing wrong with you. You are in good company. You are safe. You are not alone. You are strong. You must change only one thing: stop responding to the abuser. Don't let him dictate the terms or frame the debate (he'll win, not because he's right, but because force works). Sure, we can build a better grassroots campaign, cultivate and raise up better leaders, reform the election system to make it failproof, stick to our message, learn from the strategy of the other side. But we absolutely must dispense with the notion that we are weak, godless, cowardly, disorganized, crazy, too liberal, naive, amoral, 'loose', irrelevant, outmoded, stupid and soon to be extinct. We have the mandate of the world to back us, and the legacy of oppressed people throughout history.

    Even if you do everything right, they'll hit you anyway. Look at the poor souls who voted for this nonsense. They are working for six dollars an hour if they are working at all, their children are dying overseas and suffering from lack of health care and a depleted environment and a shoddy education. And they don't even know they are being hit.

    Mel Gilles at 07:31 PM on November 07, 2004


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Dewey
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:56 AM

For Clarity:

Though I am Republican and Christian, I do not see myself as a Republican Christian. (i.e. I do not mix my Republicanism with My Christianity) These two are seperate and rightfully so.

Liberal Christian, Catholic Christian, Liberal Jewish. Conservative Jewish.

These are philosophies and voting patterns to me only, many would correctly say these labels divide us.

Also however these individualities can be constructive as well if tolerated. this is the "real" issue.

I do not always disagree with my liberal friends or my "so called" conservative president George Bush (the biggest liberal spender in human history).

Sometimes philosophies intermingle, in the end people vote on what is important to THEM.

For me (and I think the majority of Americans THIS TIME AROUND was the following issues: National Security and Values.

Had it been Peace time and the Democratic Candidate ran on moral traditional family issues and a robust economy with limited spended and no overseas shipping away of our jobs (the last being unlikely regardless on the candidate) I would have chose the Democratic Candidate.

Phisophically I believe in Conservatism, but beliefs can change based upon needs and changes to the country as a whole.

Let's show some tolerance anyway toward others, no matter which way we choose to vote at the polls on election day.

Dewey


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM

I give up on the "cookie" business.

But, as I said before, the larger question should be which fights are worth it, and which result in just energizing the other side.

Mudcatters have to start realizing, and now would not be a minute too soon, that Mudcat sentiment on several issues, specifically on organized religion, is not shared by most of the country.

It appears, for instance, that 40% of the HISPANIC vote went to Bush this time. Hispanics are the fastest growing ethnic group in the US. You do not want to write off 40%, nor, if you are a liberal Democrat, to get them accustomed to voting for Republicans. When people first become citizens, they tend to be proud of the fact, proud to say the Pledge of Allegiance (no problem with "under God"), proud to serve in the armed forces, etc. And a lot of new citizens are conservative in many ways.

Trying to get "under God" removed from coins, the Pledge of Allegiance--(yes, I know "under God" is a recent addition, and that the Pledge itself started, I believe only in the 1930's).----- etc. wins you no points with most Americans. They are perfectly happy to sing Christmas carols at school, to see the 10 Commandments at their courthouse, etc. They don't see the 10 Commandments at the courthouse as the first wedge of Taliban USA.

Parts of Pennsylvania, for instance---- (in fact, large swatches between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh), --- are sometimes called "Alabama, Pennsylvania". Also large parts of Ohio are conservative. Minnesota and Michigan have lots of religious conservatives. Don't write them off.

I'm not even talking about the huge expanse of Red states in the south and west.


I don't consider myself religious. I certainly don't go to church regularly. But I do consider myself politically aware. If I were Hillary's advisor, the first thing I'd tell her is to start going to a church regularly, if she's not already--obviously one that reflected her beliefs.   Actually I think it's too late for her for other reasons--her image is too set in the public mind. Remember how joyful Doug R. was at the prospect of her running.

Remember the only 2 Democrats who have won since 1968? Both Carter and Clinton were seen in the public mind as religious men, (albeit in Clinton's case as more Mary Magdalene than Jesus.) Also both were Southerners.

If you want to win the US presidency, what you probably need is a white male southerner who is seen as religious.

There are lots of good issues for a liberal southern Democratic male to run on--if the true believer liberals don't knock him out in the primaries. The thing to do is make common cause with conservatives, especially new citizens. Run on the minimum wage, on the
environment, on corporate malfeasance, on the fact that this "economic recovery" has lop-sidedly benefited the rich.

Don't let the Neanderthals who now run the Republican party (and, unfortunately, the US now) typecast Democrats as Godless weaklings.

One of Bush's best applause lines was when he would come into virtually into any small town and say "John Kerry says the heart and soul of America is in Hollywood" (where Whoopi Goldberg and some others had obscenely trashed him at a Kerry fundraiser) " But I say the heart and soul of America is right here in (name of town)."

Worked like a charm.


An interesting letter to the Wall St Journal (12 Nov 2004) encapsulated it: ( Democratic) "party intelligentsia regard patriotism as hopelessly antiquated....they regard devout Catholics, gun owners, Orthodox Jews, and Texans, among others...as strange objects to be examined on a laboratory slide".

Don't do it, if you want to win elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:05 AM

Why is it so hard for many conservatives to understand when I say " I love my country but I hate what my government is doing."? George Bush is NOT America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:25 AM

Thank God Kendall is right--George Bush is not the US.

But attacking organized religion is not a good idea politically. Don't require your candidates to expunge religion from public life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM

Me again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:40 AM

It doesn't matter to many of us if criticizing religion isn't politically popular--it is a necessity in this Dark Age of lies, propaganda, and misinformation.

And BTW, if you want to know how the US feels about religion, I suggest the Pew Trust's information on it, which shows there is a huge disconnect between the polling numbers where people claim to be religious, and actual church attendance.

Church goers are a distinct minority of the US population. When I've time, I'll go look up the numbers again. I've posted them before. Most of this "Americans are deeply religious" crap is media hype, not reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM

A couple of weeks ago, the Sunday morning political TV program "Meet the Press" featured guest clergymen from opposite sides of the political spectrum -- Al Sharpton and two "Christian Right" leaders (one them might have been Jerry Flawell -- memory fails to serve).

Rev. Sharpton -- someone I have *not* always admired or agreed with -- delivered the best line on this topic I've heard in a while. I'll paraphrase, of course:

"I believe in Jesus; I'm saved. But the Jesus I believe in lived his life as an example for the rest of us. He asked people to follow him, but did not coerce them to do so. He did not try to wield the power of the state to force people to act according to his wishes, as you people do."


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:45 PM

I respect anyone who is Conservative and Christian as long as they are not anti-semetic.

I certainly respect them more than an atheist.

And especially an atheist who is a far left liberal.

They are the ones who are destroying this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:06 PM

Its me who's destroying the country, I sneak round at night and break a few bits off when you're not looking........


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:01 PM

"Why did they beat me?" That's rather a sneaky play on words in the piece kat pasted in. There's a big difference between the situation of someone who has been physically assaulted and someone who has been defeated. Using the word "beaten" here seems to me a way of implying more similarity than is really approriate.

Beating and getting beaten is an essential part of electoral politics.   But the other type of beating is not an essential part of anything.

................

As for the Ten Commandments, why not have a compromise and just put in the last seven? I don't think many people would quarrel with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Fed up with the whole lot of you!
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM

Oh GROW UP ALREADY!

I'm so tired of hearing you complain....ALL OF YOU!

When do people stop acting like children and start taking responsibility for who they are and what they say?

You know something? I don't give a flying pig's whistle if you're a Christian or a Republican, or a Pagan, or a Democrat, or anything else...just stop all these pissing contests!

Pull em all out, take a good look, and then get on with being adults.
Or maybe you ARE acting like adults and this is appropriate behavior.

If so, I'm on the wrong thread. I'm going to have to go play with the simians on Mudcat. They only throw their crap at those they don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:08 PM

GUEST,Fed up with the whole lot of you, I recommend hormone treatments. I know you'll feel much, much better after you get your hormones straightened out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:11 PM

The guest who likes long names to stand behind. Been a bit of that lately. Something in the water, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:41 AM

Hey, weelittledrummer! Are you really one of the ones destroying our country? Me too!!!

I think what Dewey was saying in his original post was he wants all us children to either agree with him or shut up. You know, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Let's stick that up on all the courtroom walls, too! Also, "be nice."

McGrath you're kidding, aren't you, about putting the Ten Commandments Minus Three on courtroom walls? If you're not, then I'd like to propose some other alterations. I have some issues with number five. Actually, I wouldn't mind adding a few, like Thou Shalt Not Own an Autoharp If Thou Wilt Not Tune It, or Thou Shalt Not Allow Your Dog to Kiss You In the Mouth When Other People Can See It.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:25 AM

I have to say I was disappointed with John Kerry when he said something like, "I'm Catholic and go to Mass and was an altar boy and all that, but it won't have any effect on how I serve as President." John F. Kennedy said the same thing, more-or-less.
I wish they had said something like, "I'm Catholic, and that's a major reason why I take social justice issues seriously and why I place a high value on human life. I don't believe in abortion myself, but I don't think the United States can or should legislate an end to abortion. I do think we should help women find alternatives to abortion and better methods of birth control."

I think that if you have religious faith that means something, then it ought to have an effect on your entire life.

Maybe that's not what they thought, though. Maybe they didn't care about life or social justice. Maybe all they cared about was winning an election.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:50 AM

Joe--

Too bad Kerry didn't have you advising him. That sounds like something he would endorse.

I believe that in a debate he did say directly that he believed in preserving Roe vs Wade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Alan Forbes
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:17 AM

Bottom line, religion sucks. If "god" wanted self-grandisement he would have bought a sex doll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peace
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:26 PM

For some it's dildos and vibrators, for others, dolls. They can all be put away in the closet when you're done with them. That saves having to deal with real people. Sad, really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/yr.jpg

Sorry I'm Republican and Christian...

being Christian and Republican are not mutually exclusive but being Republican and apologetic is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:38 PM

Do you think this could the Dewey that got Lucky Luciano locked up.

Or the librarian

or the foggy Dewey

i dunno about everybody else but I'm getting sorry he's a republican and a Christian. Still on the face of it he should be happy. His bloke won the election and its nearly Christmas.

perhaps we could cheer him up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:16 PM

Remember the term "Liberal Republican"? Once upon a time, not so long ago, there were a number of them. They were magnificent people who provided a good balance in Congress. I suppose John Lindsay (mayor of New York) was the best-known among them. I guess it was Ronald Reagan's managers who cleaned most of the liberals out of the Republican party. That was about the same time that the "Conservative Democrats" became Republican. I didn't think much of the "Conservative Democrats" because many of them were old, Southern racists - but maybe they provided a balance that held back some of the polarization that we have now.
I wish politicians would start thinking about the people and the nation (and the world), and pay less attention to the polls and to agendas and ideologies.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:41 PM

Brucie, excuse me, but did you go to the right thread? Sounds like you were aiming for the mudcats singles thread with that last post...then again...maybe not.

SueB, "Thou Shalt Not Allow Your Dog to Kiss You In the Mouth When Other People Can See It. " Has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever read! Thank you!!

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:56 PM

I wish they had said something like, "I'm Catholic, and that's a major reason why I take social justice issues seriously and why I place a high value on human life.

He actually did say something very similar to this in one of the debates. Maybe he should have stressed it more than he did though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Stu
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:02 AM

One pof the most interesting aspects of this whole debate is the need for Americans to belong in one camp or the other - the middle ground seems pretty much unoccupied. This obsession with labelling yourself is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to any meaningful dialogue between the two sides (for instance all that bollocks about Democrats being unpatriotic for not supporting the war).

One thing I think many people have learnt here in Blighty since Blair got in amid all the high hopes and cheers is that we cannot trust our politicains. Ask people here whether they're Labour, Tory or Lib-Dem and you'll get replies like "er, I don't see myself as one or the other". There is so little between the parties these days, (with the possible exception of the Lib -Dems), most people have lost interest.

As for religion and politics, that is fine by me as long as you take some responsibility for how you cast your vote (do you think the ten commandments the literal word of God?). If you don't like the idea of personally blowing the limbs off Iraqi children with you cluster bomb, don't vote for someone that is happy to do that for whatever reason - if you do, accept you are partially responsible for their suffering, and at least have the balls to stand up and say it


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:50 PM

Joe, possibly Kerry and JFK did care about "life and social justice" and just put these values higher than the rules of any one religion. You seem quite willing to pick and mix for yourself - with, for instance, that quaint compromise that gays should be allowed to marry, but "maybe" not in church. (Would that restriction apply equally to Christian gays, married by gay clergy, or are there no such things?)

Carol, one or two of the commandments could offend Christians too. The one prohibiting "graven images" presents an obvious difficulty for the orthodox and Roman churches (necessitating some wondrous exercises in semantic gymnastics down the ages). How they are set out and numbered is largely a subjective exercise - ten being achieved usually by compositing either a couple at the beginning or the last two.

Among them is one in which God allegedly proclaims himself "a jealous god" (I love the indefinite article!), who doesn't want any other gods being worshipped. I don't see how anyone can abide by these commandments and still respect the followers of other religions. The message is clear: only the god of the Jews - with or without the two add-ons that make up the Christian triumvirate - is acceptable. Anyone who believes this is surely obliged to spread the word to those who believe anything else, so that they have a chance to convert and be saved.

Quite why Pagans, Sikhs etc would be offended only by post-1960 courtroom displays of the decalogue is something Joe didn't explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:37 PM

Well yes a jealous God, but one with a house that has many mansions. I'm sure he'll fit you in somewhere.

I think faith is a little bit like what Hemingway said about grace under pressure and courage in battle. Sometimes it is in our natures to grant it God, sometimes it is withheld - is there a single army that never ran away in the face of the enemy, whose courage didn't waver. Faith in God is literally believing the impossible - anybody who says their faith never wavers is a big fibber.

If faith is something that you think happens if you thump your chest, and I say I've got it - I think you rather miss the point of the miracle of faith.

Still thats what make the sermon on the Mount such an impossible set of injunctions. Judge not lest ye be judged, and here I am sitting in judgement on all those evangelicals - telling them they miss the point .....

If you are bought up a Christian, you know this. there is a God who loves you ...Democrat, Republican, agnostic, atheist, no matter.

Its a confusing business, and you'd have to be God to know all the ins and outs. You're not, so relax.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:52 AM

Hi, Peter - I have no regrets about having voted for Kerry. I think he's a good man; and I really like his balance and common sense, and his thoughtful, non-ideological way of presenting his ideas. However, I thought his answers on the religion issue were not quite as satisfying as his other answers. In general, I thought his way of speaking was refreshingly frank and clear. I got the feeling that he may have had a bit too much pressure on the religion issue and may have been too cautious. I'd like to hear what he really thinks on the religion stuff, and I don't think he had the opportunity to express that.

Remember, Peter, that I don't look on religious faith as a code of rules and doctrines that a person has to swallow hook, line, and sinker. I see faith as a way of thinking and living in relationship with God and with God's creation. I think the churches and society in general have to do some serious thinking and redevelop their theology of sexuality - both heterosexual and homosexual. I think the conservatives are too rigid, and too eager to stick their noses into other people's bedrooms. I think the liberals are too suavely politically correct to see that there are real issues that must be explored if we are to preserve the idea of sex and marriage as something sacred.

I think that if two people of opposite sexes or the same sex are willing to commit themselves to each other in a lifelong relationship, the state should recognize that as marriage. I also think that those churches that are ready to accept gay marriage, should perform and bless gay marriage ceremonies. I would gladly attend such a ceremony if I had gay friends getting married.

Most of the churches just aren't at the point of accepting gay marriage. Too many of their members just wouldn't understand, and performing gay weddings would tear those churches apart. In a wedding, a church blesses a marriage in the name of God and of its members. If a large minority of members of a church are not ready to bless such a marriage, then it isn't time yet to perform such marriages in that particular church. This fits my thinking that religious faith is not imposed on people. When the people are ready (with a little nudging, perhaps), then will be the proper time - but the people will never be ready until the churches develop and teach a solid and sensible theology of sexuality that addresses the realities of life in the 21st century.

And yes, I suppose your stuff on the graven images makes sense - IF you as a nonbeliever insist that a fundamentalist interpretation is the only valid interpretation of scripture. I think that's imposing an inflexibility upon scripture that was never intended by the authors. I can't understand why so many nonbelievers look on the Bible through fundamentalist eyes.

As for displays of the ten commandments before and after 1960, I'd say 1960 is an approximate date - and perhaps the dividing line should be a little later. Through the 1950's, Judeo-Christian practices were an integral part of our culture and history - for better or worse. Many of those practices are still present as a natural part of our language and culture. I think it's wrong to cleanse those things from our culture, to sanitize life so no one need be offended by religion. That failure to recognize and respect the religious aspect of our culture is just as intolerant as a failure to recognize the racial and cultural identities of others. Tolerance demands a respect and perhaps even a celebration of all aspects of our diversity.

However, sometime between 1960 and 1980, extremist Christians began to use their religious practices as weapons, and attempted to impose their views on all of society. There's a perfect example of it on the front of the courthouse near Mudcat Central in West Chester, Pennsylvania - a rather new metal Ten Commandments sign on the front wall of the courthouse. It looks like a "No Parking" sign, but with the Ten Coomandments on it instead. It doesn't fit the history or the architecture of the building at all - it was posted by some Christians trying to use their beliefs as a weapon. Same with the Ten Commandments memorial that was erected in the Supreme Court of Alabama. If it had been there a hundred years, it would be a shame to remove it because it would have become part of our history and culture - like statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan that the Taliban destroyed.

What about the names of cities all over the United States? Do we have to rename St. Louis and Santa Monica and San Francisco and Santa Cruz? Should we ban Christian Brothers brandy from liquor stores? Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. I don't like it.

I think it's wrong to take offense at somebody wishing you "Merry Christmas," too - unless they're doing it to proves some sort of Christmas superiority.

Happy holidays, Peter.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Wusie
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:58 AM

Hmmmm.....I tried being a Christian once, but found it totally impossible in this world to follow the teachings...might have been easier if i'd found even ONE person whose example I could follow.
As for being Republican , I realise this all relates to AMERICA (doesn't just everything these days) but I'd just like to say it's hard being a Republican in a country where the Monarchists word the referendum so that half the Republicans back off and vote to stay in subjegation. Also very scared that our Prime Miniature has us so tied to Dubya. Who says only "Third World" countries have rigged elections? Our lot just cover up the rigging better. Oh, alright, maybe Oz IS a 3rd World country. Sometimes I wish the weather was nicer in New Zealand.
Why does America think America's Way is the Only True Way and condemn all who are not with America...."if you are not with me, you are against me?...now where did I read that before?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Cretinous Yahoo
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:55 AM

I've never learned anything from someone with whom I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

weelittledrummer said: "Faith in God is literally believing the impossible" and that of course means it is impossible rationally to argue against it. Neat. But I've often wondered about the disciple Thomas: would he be classed as a believer, or non-believer? He did believe the impossible, but only after seeing the physical proof of it (allegedly).

Joe, I understand your point about 1960. I suppose it's analagous with the unease I feel about a campaign in the UK to pardon 300 or so soldiers executed (without any proper hearings) for supposed cowardice during WW1. Descendents deserve to have the stygma lifted, but the standards of the day were applied, however criminally wrong they were. Maybe it is enough to learn from the past without having to rewrite it.

Your position on gay marriage makes sense, up to a point. But it embraces the knowing perpetuation of an injustice, just to avoid a church tearing itself apart. I can't buy that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:20 AM

Ebbie- Ron Olesko started a thread a few months back on serious reasons why conservatives supported Bush.   The thread was treated with respect and well written comments without the mean spirited diatribe and venom usually included in most threads.

Go back and read the thread if you are truly interested in a serious echange of ideas.   There have been numerous conservative responses to the questions you posed in a number of mudcat threads.   If you have not seen them you have not been looking- or more likely- your mind may be too partisan to accept any differing opionions.

For the record I am a folkie, conservative, environmentalist, Jewish, Bush supporting republican (except on his overspending and border policies)   I wonder how many of those profiles does Zogby or Gallup have in their flies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:05 AM

Do you support his invasion of the wrong country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:59 PM

I should leave God to judge the exact status of Thomas, and everybody else come to that.

Judging thats his problem... We got enough of our own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sorry I'm Republican and Christian
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:47 AM

"Thats his problem" Self-inflicted, for some reason known only to himself.


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