Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4]


Songs that offend you

Rob Naylor 05 Aug 10 - 04:56 AM
TheSnail 05 Aug 10 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Chaz Brewer 05 Aug 10 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,gramm 05 Aug 10 - 03:35 AM
theleveller 17 Aug 09 - 04:53 AM
Will Fly 17 Aug 09 - 04:49 AM
Joe Offer 16 Aug 09 - 11:57 PM
Ref 16 Aug 09 - 08:30 PM
Acorn4 16 Aug 09 - 05:57 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 09 - 02:49 PM
Stringsinger 16 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM
Rumncoke 16 Aug 09 - 10:22 AM
alanabit 16 Aug 09 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Gid Tanner 16 Aug 09 - 12:26 AM
kendall 01 Feb 05 - 09:34 PM
kendall 01 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 01 Feb 05 - 06:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM
kendall 01 Feb 05 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,Com Seangan 01 Feb 05 - 02:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM
Big Mick 01 Feb 05 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Allison 15 Dec 04 - 07:41 PM
annamill 15 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM
GUEST, Mikefule 15 Dec 04 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Gerry 14 Dec 04 - 10:11 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 04 - 06:22 AM
GUEST, Mikefule 13 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM
vulvabogwadins 13 Dec 04 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Gerry 12 Dec 04 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Bluesmike 11 Dec 04 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,SBC/Toronto 11 Dec 04 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,kareno 11 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM
frogprince 11 Dec 04 - 01:21 PM
Joybell 10 Dec 04 - 06:14 PM
frogprince 10 Dec 04 - 03:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Dec 04 - 12:41 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Dec 04 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Jimmy 10 Dec 04 - 12:00 PM
mkebenn 10 Dec 04 - 07:52 AM
DonMeixner 10 Dec 04 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,Gerry 09 Dec 04 - 09:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 04 - 08:11 PM
Scoville 09 Dec 04 - 07:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 04 - 07:42 PM
Scoville 09 Dec 04 - 07:29 PM
Metchosin 09 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM
Bill D 09 Dec 04 - 06:47 PM
Joybell 09 Dec 04 - 06:45 PM
Metchosin 09 Dec 04 - 06:11 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:56 AM

Guest, Jimmy: What about National Anthems that were written before the current geopolitical makeup.
How about the "British (i.e. English) National Anthem" which, although apparantly derived from a Jacobean tune, originally contained the verse:
"God grant that Marshall Wade
Shall by Thy mighty aid, victory bring.
Let him sedition hush, and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King."


No, not exactly. OK, this post is ancient, but I can't let the inaccuracy pass. This verse was never ORIGINALLY part of the UK National anthem.

The anthem was composed *after* the Act of Union, so was indeed the British National Anthem, rather than being "English". Its first published version consists of the 3 verses that are still current.

The 1745 publication, in the midst of the Jacobite uprising (Jacobite, not Scottish, BTW....there were more Scots in Cumberland's army than there were in Prince Charlie's!) did not contain this verse.

In fact, the first reference to it is in The "Gentleman's Magazine" of 1837, as being "an additional verse, though being of temporary application only, stored in the memory of an old friend". It was used briefly around the '45 rising as an unauthorised 4th verse. The Jacobites also had their own "additional" verse going:

God bless the prince, I pray,
God bless the prince, I pray,
Charlie I mean;
That Scotland we may see
Freed from vile Presbyt'ry,
Both George and his Feckie,
Ever so, Amen.

So basically, some people on both sides added "unauthorised" verses to the anthem reflecting their own particular political/ religious persuasions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:33 AM

"Tie a yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak tree" sung in a folk club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Chaz Brewer
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:00 AM

this one


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,gramm
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:35 AM

rofl @ phil ochs being on this list

conservative much?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 04:53 AM

"Anything that involves killing animals for sport"

Jim, I have a real problem in this area. For a great many years I have been an active campaigner against killing animals for sport (most especially, fox hunting, dog fighting and badger baiting) but there are some hunting songs that I do like: Martin Simpson singing The Granemore Hare, for instance. I try to think of them as an anachronism - part of the past. I remember, many, many years ago, hearing Mike Waterson introducing Dido, Bendigo by saying that they were against hunting but it was a great song.

I suppose the same could be said of other types of songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 04:49 AM

Any song that has the words "the windmills of your mind" in it gets a thumbs down from me. (Parodied, inimitably, by the Bonzo Dogs with the phrase, "the ventricles of your heart".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 11:57 PM

I can think of only one song that has ever really really offended me. We were required to sing it during Basic Training in the U.S. Army, and I mumbled the lyrics because I just couldn't sing them:
    I wanna be an Airborne Ranger,
    I wanna live a life of danger;
    I wanna go to Viet Nam,
    I wanna kill old Charlie Cong.
I knew I was going to Germany when I finished training, but I still hated that song - and I knew if I spoke out against it, I just might be sent to Viet Nam.

To me, that was the most obscene song I have ever heard. That, and what we were required to say when the Drill Sergeant asked,
    What is the purpose of the bayonet?

    Answer: To Kill!!!
Oh, how I hated that.

-Joe Offer, Pacifist-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Ref
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 08:30 PM

I don't know if anyone else here shares being a Unitarian-Universalist with me, but I'd just like to throw in how offensive it is to be told I must like a certain song because of group identity. Yes, I am referring to that "maudlin and drippy" piece of &$%@, "Spirit Of Life!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 05:57 PM

But there are some excellent songs about hunting and I think it quite OK to do these while disapproving of the killing of animals, because they are good songs.

Can we not sing a murder ballad unless we are a psychopath?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 02:49 PM

Anything that involves killing animals for sport - but live and let live I suppose (unless you happen to be a fox, a grouse, a hare, a stag......)
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM

Woody used to say "I hate a song that makes a man feel small, no 'count"
(I'm paraphrasing. Someone can send the right quote.)

In context, I am not offended by any song. Each song holds a point-of-view which
I'm not obliged with which to agree.

I will however not promote any song that I believe is disagreeable to me unless it
is in context with a performance wherein I can express my distaste or disagreement
with it.

I am not easily offended because I have been on the upside of the see-saw.

Langston Hughes said, "Cheap little rhyme to cheap little tune is sometimes
as dangerous as the sliver of a moon. Cheap little tune to cheap little
rhyme will cut a man's throat sometime". (Wisdom, there).

Frank Hamilton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Rumncoke
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 10:22 AM

I never thought the song 'Way down to Lamorna' was offensive until I watched a rather plump middle aged man engage in simulated sex as he sang it.

Bleaugh!!

Anne Croucher


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 08:44 AM

Repulsive as that verse is, I think (hope) that nowadays the effect would be to depict the singer as portraying a demented character.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Gid Tanner
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:26 AM

Some folks say a nigger won't steal
I caught three in my corn field
One had a bushel, one had a peck
One had a rope wrapped around his neck.

Run Nigger Run


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:34 PM

refresh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM

Is this THE Bob Coltman? the man who wrote such gems as, Patrick Spencer, The Minstrel Show and Lonesome Robin?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:02 PM

When I was a kid the only folk singer person I knew (till I met Bill Bonyun) was a friend of my parents, Harrison Taylor. She had no pretensions to being a hotshot folksinger...that concept had really not arisen in those days. As I was growing up, getting loud on the banjo, Harrison tended to circle her wagons and so I didn't learn as much from this gentle, undemonstrative singer as I might have. But her repertoire was mostly Burl Ives...nothing much original, a few New Yorkish items of the time like Cole Porter's "Miss Otis Regrets" and the "Martins and the Coys" made famous by Dorothy Shay the Park Avenue Hillbillie.

That, however, did not mean her songs were not deeply felt. And she taught me something about genuineness. Once I sang a gospel song I had just learned. Didn't mean anything particular by it, I was then and am now unreligious. But Harrison, though she complimented me for my parents' sake, said she would never sing that song. Why? "Because I don't believe in it."

All of which is background for saying: in those days I had no problem singing a song I didn't believe in. Now, when I choose very carefully before doing anything gospelish because I don't want to add fuel to the inflammatory (per)version of Christianity that's getting around these days, I recall Harrison. And I find I steer clear of a lot of gospel because it puts me off now, as it never used to. I regret this, and feel the loss. Such gospel as I like is usually black-originated now, not white, whatever that means.

I also agree with the poster above who cited national anthems. About ours... Well, let's just say I'm an avid baseball fan (how about them Sox) but when they play the anthem to Old Gory, I turn the sound off and don't really want to look at the screen. I feel I am a patriot, but they've stolen my flag and are trying to steal my country and right now the flag offends me, which I'm very sorry for.

All of which adds up to: songs of religion and politics, in these times, tend to offend me.

Apart from that, I'm offended by next to nothing except outright cruelty and macho meanness (if that makes me a girly man so be it). So I don't like "Ballad of the Green Berets" / "Give Me Some Men Who Are Stout Hearted Men" type stuff. And I do agree about the patently phony...like "Scarlet Ribbons" (perfect example) though I like equally mawkish stuff such as "I Cannot Call Her Mother."
Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM

51 is young...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:50 PM

"Young" Davey Crockett was 51 at the time.

Anyway, "THE HOUSE NEXT DOOR TO MINE'S BEEN SOLD TO NIGGERS" is about as bad as it gets.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:15 PM

I dunno. Offense is in the mind of the listener.

My own young fella was doing a busking job outside City Hall in Belfast and started his repertoire with The Fields of Athenry. He was politely advised to move on by a well-intentioned local girl passing by. The eejit never associated the tune with Celtic Football team or with Nationalists. Apparently, it assumes blasphemy proportions in parts of the North.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM

I wrote a song ten years ago, about two homeless people, which was intended as an ironic dig at the system which makes petty crime the only way for some people to survive. I sang it for about five years and it was well received everywhere. Then singing it at Sidmouth, I was threatened by a man who said he was homeless, and chose to take the words absolutely literally. He had to be escorted off the premises, and hung about for a couple of hours waiting for me to come out. Then he left. I haven't sung it since.

I felt gutted that what I was trying to say was missed, and that ai had caused such offence.

I guess it's all a matter of perception.

No song offends me, unless I judge it as being sung for that purpose. I suppose he felt that that was my purpose.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:04 PM

I see that some folks haven't made the distinction between dislike and offend.

I am offended by songs that are jingoistic, and glorify war. That is not to say that songs meant to inspire people to act in a cause are wrong. But when the attempt is to glorify the most horrible example of mankind's existence (war and violence), then I am offended mightily.

I also am offended by songs that characterize whole groups of people with a specific message. This would include much of today's rap music which seems to indicate that women are "ho's" meant to be dressed up to please men. As the Father of three daughters, I am offended by songs which lead them to believe their role in the world is to dress scantily and rub their ass against some guys crotch. This would include songs which send these generalized, and incorrect, messages about folks based on gender, race, religion.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Allison
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 07:41 PM

It's interesting how so many things that seem inoffensive to some are positively needling to others. For example, my favorite folk musician, Amy Martin, refered to some pop music as "plastic" and drew a heated response from one fan who objected to the "slam" against the pop genre. At the same time, many of her songs are overtly political and liberal, and yet fans of all kinds of different political backgrounds like them. You can hear her at her website .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: annamill
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM

This is a offensive song thread, right?

BTW, "There were roses" is suppose to be offensive, make you feel sick and generally feel bad. If it made you feel good you'd be a sick, sick person.

One song that riles me and actually makes me run to change the station real fast, is "The Last Farewell"

There's a ship lies rigged and ready in the harbor
Tomorrow for old England she sails
Far away from your land of endless sunshine
To my land full of rainy skies and gales
And I shall be aboard that ship tomorrow
Though my heart is full of tears at this farewell

For you are beautiful, I have loved you dearly
More dearly than the spoken word can tell
For you are beautiful, I have loved you dearly
More dearly than the spoken word can tell

So let's have sex now before I die, OK?



I see this dude running from girl to girl with the same garbage.

Love, Annamill


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 01:27 PM

<>

Er... read the sentence, with particular reference to the word *"Some"*.

Or was it because of the demands of the early Bophuthatswanan Methodists that Pilate gave up and washed his hands of the whole thing, despite finding no reason to convict Jesus?

Of course (in the story) ***some*** Jews actively promoted his death.

That's a huge part of the story: God promises the Jews a Messiah; Jews on the whole expect said Messiah to be a warrior King; said Messiah turns out to be notable pacifist from a humble background; many Jews disappointed; some regard him as a fake; He's rejected by the Jewish people (as a whole, but not all of 'em); He gets sacrificed, and becomes saviour of anyone, Jew or Gentile, who chooses to believe in him.

Over the next 2000 years, a number of cults grow up, emphasising different aspects of the story, or making up new bits, and some of them then take it in turns to fall out with each other and everyone else.

Meanwhile most people - Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Shintoists, Taoists, Buddhists and even atheists - just want to get on with their lives, treat their philosophical beliefs or superstitions as an important but small part of who they are, and really don't try too hard to take offence where none is intended, and certainly don't confuse "some" with "most", "many" or "all" when a factual statement is made about some members of a given group.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:11 PM

Mikefule wrote,

       Question: If we accept for the moment that there was a "Christ", and that
       "The Christ" was executed, then was He killed by the Jews?

       Answer: Some Jews actively promoted His death; some stood by and silently
       condoned it; some stood by and silently condemned it; many probably didn't
       give a monkeys one way or another - they lived in brutal times; some few
       tried to stop it; and MOST Jews never knew a thing about it.

I'm not sure what makes Mikefule think that some Jews actively promoted the death of
Jesus. In any event, Jesus was killed by the Roman authorities of the day.

weelittledrummer wrote,

       If you are choosing to translate 'the holy people' as the Jewish people, and to
       interpret The Lord of the Dance as an anti-semitic tract - all I can say is that it
       seems like a terrible slander.

I've made the case earlier in this thread for interpreting "holy people" to mean the Jewish
people as a whole, but I've also pointed out that even if it only refers to one Jewish faction
or organization it is still saying that Jesus was crucified by Jews. To say that Jesus was
crucified by Jews is to perpetuate an anti-Jewish lie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:22 AM

I never knew Sydney Carter, but I knew the religion that he chose - Quakerism. I read one of his books. I saw him interviewed. I can only appeal to any of his friends out there to defend him from what is being said about him in this thread.

If you are choosing to translate 'the holy people' as the Jewish people, and to interpret The Lord of the Dance as an anti-semitic tract - all I can say is that it seems like a terrible slander.

It didn't seem to me that he was like that.

It is possible to interpret the Bible itself as an injunction to do murder, insomuch as people have done it. But it takes a fairly malicious nature to do such a thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

There's a similarity here with a recent artificial media brouhaha about Cherie Blair's comments about the Palestinians. If you say that you can understand how someone from a Palestinian background might feel driven to suicide bombing, and you will be instantly castigated for condoning their actions.   I can understand the basic principles of an atom bomb, but it doesn't mean I think they should be used.

But if we don't discuss these things freely, and we don't at least try to understand why "the enemy" hates us, the enmity will persist. We have freedom of speech under law, but the media and many of the general population don't respect it when someone says something controversial.

Question: If we accept for the moment that there was a "Christ", and that "The Christ" was executed, then was He killed by the Jews?

Answer: Some Jews actively promoted His death; some stood by and silently condoned it; some stood by and silently condemned it; many probably didn't give a monkeys one way or another - they lived in brutal times; some few tried to stop it; and MOST Jews never knew a thing about it.

Many anti-Zionist Jews held a vigil outside the hospital as Arafat was dying, partly to show their repugnance for the actions of Israel, the state, despite their allegiance to their understanding of the Jewish religion.

If people can't discuss the circumstances of Jesus's death, 2,000 years after the event, without falling out, then He wasted his time! And I'm writing as an atheist with no particular axe to grind for or against any particular one of the various Christian sects or the various Jewish sects.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: vulvabogwadins
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 01:06 PM

So far I haven't found any song that particularly offends me. I may find some songs politically offensive, such as sixties hippie tunes and other such out of touch nonsense, but if they're put to a good tune I'll sing them anyway.

Far too often is the case that individuals look for things to be offended by and that by far offends me even more than a poorly written song.

One needs only to look for any thread here dealing with the IRA or some Orangemen to notice by the third post someone is up in arms and denouncing the views of the person who started the thread (though often with courtesy), the subject matter of the song, the political ramifications, and may even infer that even singing such a song is just one step down from pulling the trigger or setting the detonator. Silencing those who perform these types of songs and trying to erase them from history does no justice for anyone.

That is what I find offensive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:32 PM

DonMeixner wrote,

       Who then killed Christ. My understanding of history makes it a group effort.
       The Romans had no laws that would allow them to excecute so Pilate turned
       him over to the San Hedron. The San Hedron found him guilty of enough stuff
       to allow for his crucifiction.

       I realize this is beyond musicological. But who was it that drove the nails?

I think you have it exactly backwards. The Jewish courts, which hardly ever imposed
capital punishment anyway, had long since lost to the Romans all authority to do so.
The Romans, meanwhile, executed thousands, and crucifixion was a Roman, not a
Jewish, method.

frogprince wrote,

       "The holy people said it was a shame"
       Stop a minute and put the line in context. Jesus lived, and associated, primarily
       with other Jewish people; that was who he was, and where he was; there is no
       denigration of the general populace around him in the song. The song specifically
       contrasts how the "Holy" leaders rejected him, with his acceptance by his disciples
       and followers; the disciples, to a man, were Jews too.

Well, we've been through that, earlier in this thread. "Holy people" is used repeatedly
in Deuteronomy, in translations with which Sydney Carter would have been quite familiar,
to refer to the Jewish people in its entirety. But even on the point of view that the phrase
refers to some Jewish organization or faction of the time, the song accuses those Jews of
much more than just saying it was a shame; it accuses them of hanging Jesus on a cross
to die. That accusation is an anti-Jewish lie, and it offends me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Bluesmike
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 07:42 PM

Someone once said no matter what you say you will always offend someone. I like to think I manage somewhat better odds than that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,SBC/Toronto
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 02:45 PM

The first time that I heard "Lord of the Dance" was about 35 years ago when I was doing some gigs with John Allan Cameron, a Canadian folk singer who, before he became a fulltime performer, had studied for the Catholic priesthood.

In the song are these lines:

"I danced for the scribe & the pharisee
But they would not dance & they wouldn't follow me"

and

"I danced on the Sabbath & I cured the lame
The holy people said it was a shame
They whipped & they stripped & they hung me high
And they left me there on a cross to die."

I was very uncomfortable about performing the song because I certainly interpreted them as meaning the Jews killed Christ and I brought this up with John Allan. Now, I don't know about Sydney Carter, but I certainly had not thought that John Allan was anti-Semitic. His response, and remember he was trained for the Catholic priesthood, was that the song was correct, that the Jews did kill Christ.

When Sydney Carter wrote that song, mainstream Christianity did teach that Jews, as a people, were Christ killers. Carter was reflecting the standard Christian belief of his time. A belief that that many Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic Church, now refute.

The song reflects the anti-Semitic bias of the mainstream Christianity of the time. For McGrath of Harlow to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best.

The fact that Carter had many years of opportunities to revise the song before the onset of Alzheimer's and didn't, speaks volumes about his own values, even if he had, as McGrath points out, a friend who was a rabbi. How many times have we heard the old sayings, "some of my best friends are Jewish," or "some of my best friends are Black," when someone tries justifying anti-Semitism or racism.

Yes, the inherent anti-Semitism of "Lord of the Dance" offends me.

BTW, I finished up that contract and never played with John Allan Cameron again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,kareno
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM

I was suprised to see Old Black Joe in this list (way back). I was one of those little white kids who,along with non white kids, sang this song in grade school and have loved it ever since. Just this week I was picking it out on my fiddle and thinking what a talent Foster had for simple melodies.   I have serious doubts that we meet up with friends and relatives in an afterlife but the portrayal of old age and death in the song touches me deeply. The feelings of loss and the longing to be reunited put so simply: "I'm comin'".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 01:21 PM

Joybell, I was just going to mention "Slap Her Down Again, Pa"; something reminded me of that thing the other day, for the first time in many (but not enough) years. Are there still people "amusing" themselves by singing that? I can remember it actually getting a substantial amount of air time. I can't say it was a childhood favorite of mine, but I guess back then I thought it was kind of funny; sometimes it can really feel good to realize how much you've changed. Maybe the song should be preserved somewhere, though, to bring out when anyone starts ranting about all the moral and sociological ground we've lost since the "good old days".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Joybell
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:14 PM

It's come up before. We all got quite heated over it, but here goes. I wouldn't sing, or listen to (if I could help it)
"Slap her Down Again Pa!"
Might have thought it was funny when I was younger, but I doubt it.
Cheers, Joy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:19 PM

"The holy people said it was a shame"
Stop a minute and put the line in context. Jesus lived, and associated, primarily with other Jewish people; that was who he was, and where he was; there is no denigration of the general populace around him in the song. The song specifically contrasts how the "Holy" leaders rejected him, with his acceptance by his disciples and followers; the disciples, to a man, were Jews too. "Holy people" in the song refers to the kind of people who stand entrenched in their authoritive rules and customs to the detriment of their compassion and common decency. It's essentally timeless; it's about Jerry Falwell, and about the Tallaban, among others.
                               Dean


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:41 PM

The actual line was as I remember:-

I danced on the sabbath and I cured the lame -
The holy people said it was a shame.
I have always understood this to refer to the fact that various religious authorities interpreted the bible to say that on the sabbath you should do no work. Curing the lame was work. They took objection.

Nothing to do with crucifixion. Then as now, it seems good works cannot go without castigation. Not even writing great hymns.

(then fresh sentence with unspecified subject))
They whipped and stripped me and hung me high
left me there on a cross to die.

Officially of course the Roman soldiers did all that. But I think when a great voice is stilled, all decent men feel some collective guilt.

PS Sorry I called you a twit


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:32 PM

The actual line was as I remember:-

I danced on the sabbath and I cured the lame -
The holy people said it was a shame.
I have always understood this to refer to the fact that various religious authorities interpreted the bible to say that on the sabbath you should do no work. Curing the lame was work. They took objection.

Nothing to do with crucifixion. Then as now, it seems good works cannot go without castigation. Not even writing great hymns.

(then fresh sentence with unspecified subject))
They whipped and stripped me and hung me high
left me there on a cross to die.

Officially of course the Roman soldiers did all that. But I think when a great voice is stilled, all decent men feel some collective guilt.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:00 PM

Getting back to songs that offend. I'd have to say that MOST "National Anthems" fall into this category.
To what point is the "National Anthem" played at domestic sports events? International events, maybe.
What about National Anthems that were written before the current geopolitical makeup.
How about the "British (i.e. English) National Anthem" which, although apparantly derived from a Jacobean tune, originally contained the verse:
"God grant that Marshall Wade
Shall by Thy mighty aid, victory bring.
Let him sedition hush, and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King."
Not exactly
The Establishment says that they only play three verses these days. If it is an instrumental - which verses apply and which don't


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: mkebenn
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:52 AM

I change a line in Prine's "Sam Stone" 'cause it bothers me, and I don't point it out. Wrong? Mike


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:31 AM

Gerry,

Who then killed Christ. My understanding of history makes it a group effort. The Romans had no laws that would allow them to excecute so Pilate turned him over to the San Hedron. The San Hedron found him guilty of enough stuff to allow for his crucifiction.

I realize this is beyond musicological. But who was it that drove the nails?

Don


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:24 PM

McGrath of Harlow wrote,

       And if anyone would sooner sing the line from the Lord of the Dance

       "The Men of God, they said it was a shame"

       to avoid any possible misunderstanding, I doubt very much if Sydney Carter
       would have had any objection.

I have an objection to any song that ascribes the crucifixion to any Jew or Jewish group.

weelittledrummer wrote,
      
       The twit who came up with this nonsense has never in his life created
       someothing [sic] as exquisite as Lord of the Dance.

Evidently a few people have come up, independently, with the notion that there's a
problem with a song that accuses the Jews of killing Jesus. Whether any of these
people has ever created anything particularly exquisite - I'm sorry, I don't see how
this relates to the discussion.

       The Lord of the Dance is a marvellous creation, and I have seen it give relief and
       comfort to the bereaved, and as a teacher I saw children from tough backgrounds
       have their spirits raised by this song.

Good. Does that mean it's forbidden to offer any criticism of it?

       The suggestion that Carter himself was in any way anti semitic is utterly disgraceful.

My position is that the belief that the Jews killed Jesus is an antisemitic belief. If you
reject this position of mine then you can accept that Carter expressed this belief in
the song without seeing it as implying that Carter was in any way antisemitic. Carter
expressed in the song a belief that I find offensive - that's why I posted to this thread
("Songs that offend you") to begin with.

Rapaire wrote,

       I first heard and sang "Lord of the Dance" back in the 1970s. I never then, and
       do not now, think that it was ever intended to be or was anti-Semitic (or more
       strictly, anti-Jewish).

I agree that it was never intended to be anti-Jewish. Unfortunately, it turned out to be
anti-Jewish. It says the Jews killed Jesus. That's anti-Jewish, whatever the intentions
were.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:11 PM

It always seems strange to me that people set so much significance on things like whether, for example a word is spelt "them" or "dem" or "these" or "dese". Better to use standard spelling, partly because that way people use their natural pronunciation (which often enough, ironically enough, is going to be "dem" and "dese").   

The same goes this side of the Atlantic for Rudyard Kipling trying to indicate cockney, or even William Barnes with Dorset dialect. The "funnt spelling" gets in the way of the poetry, and even messes up people's ability to get the accent right, if they are doing it that way.

But I can't really see why this kind of thing has much to do with racism either way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 07:53 PM

Oh, retch. Sorry, I thought I was getting over this flu bug but the Cat Carol has definitely set me back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 07:42 PM

It'd take real courage to sing that Cat Carol.   A Christmas Truce between Cat and Mouse, that's fair enough, and in the tradition of tye Lion and the Lamb, and dying out in the snow is not unusual in songs, sentimental and otherwise - but Santa and the weeping reindeer, that's what really puts it over the edge. (If it had even been The Christmas Angel it might have saved it...)

I'd love to hear a version of this by Hank Wangford...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 07:29 PM

One assumes that your friend consulted with Townes prior to his death and obtained permission to change the words to his song, since if he didn't, he's doing something at least mildly illegal, unethical, and to be condemmed by all right-thinking people. And why is lust in a woman so evil? Are only men allowed lust?

Midchuck, I didn't say anywhere that I thought lust in a woman was evil. My friend performs only among friends and has no intention of ever recording anything, and she made a point of telling us that she changed the words. Townes had already passed when she learned the song. What offends her is not the idea of lust in a woman but the idea that lust is the root of prostitution. She's a social worker who has known a lot of hard-luck women, none of whom became prostitutes out of lust. She loves Townes and she loves the song, she's just damned tired of the popular idea that prostitutes do what they do because they like sex.

And no, I don't think it's unethical as long as she is honest about what she did to the song.

And yes, I have listened to the words of "Kingdom Coming". No, they are not as offensive when you "de-minstrelize" them but I still wouldn't sing them in public, at least not without a thorough explanation to my audience, because of the attitudes of the time and because in this part of the country (I live in Texas) you unfortunately can't always be sure people don't sort-of mean it when they sing something like that. Sad but true.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

With some, I guess, all their taste is in their mouth.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:47 PM

but...a Google search on the title will take you to many, many places where reviews and discussions are posted with sincere folk absolutely gushing about how beautiful and 'moving' it is! .....It moves ME, alright...right toward the door before it moves my innards to bring up lunch..*grin*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:45 PM

Come to think of it - we may have witnessed this very same miracle, Metchosin.
Except that it was a rat instead of a mouse, it was the middle of Summer, no snow around, a Tom cat, wasn't Christmas, the rat died and it was the cat who lived,.... still and all....

Our cat,"Feelings" had a bed in an old guitar body - top off, with sheepskin bedding. One day we removed the sheepskin and LO! There was a mummified RAT. Do you think we saw the very same story re-enacted before us? Feelings got some of the details wrong, I'll grant you. ALSO we'd have taken note sooner if a raindeer had come and told us where to look!
Wonder if Feelings had heard the song? Or wrote it, even? Maybe it's in feline oral tradition. They do have sing-a-rounds, I've heard them. Cheers Joy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Songs that offend you
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:11 PM

I think you have to hear it sung just to appreciate how truly bad it is. My advice is to immediately run at the first note and just take my word for it. By comparison, Shooby Taylor, the human horn, is sublime.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 5 December 5:41 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.