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BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday

Once Famous 06 Dec 04 - 12:54 PM
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Subject: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:54 PM

On a talk show that I was listening to this morning I heard an Afro-American caller rip Kwanza as being an invented marketing holiday that was benefitting no one really except merchants and industries that have the Kwanza merchandise market cornered.

It appears this holiday which is not really a holiday (holy day) has no religious principal and was invented in 1966.

I found it interesting that the Afro-American caller criticized it for what it really appears to be, a Hallmark holiday. It was obviously invented to correspond to and capitalize on the already existing holiday season.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:59 PM

Aren't they all?

I mean, they were ALL 'invented' at some time or other...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: MMario
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:00 PM

Yes - that is factual. It doesn't mean that it can't have deep signifigance for people who have either grown up celebrating it or who have adopted it as a holiday for their children. As people frequently like to point out - the major christian denominations "stole" most of their holy days from older religions - as some neo-pagans take commercial Christmas songs and re-work them as "Solstice Carols" or "Yule Carols"

everything was newly invented at some point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:05 PM

Never heard of it. Is it specific to the USA?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:05 PM

Kwanzaa (two "a"s) is indeed a recent celebration. It is clebrated from December 26 to January 1st and does not have any religious significance, as Martin points out. While a little scepticism is always in order, from everything I've read about the creation of Kwanzaa it was not started to be another Hallmark moment. (You can read all about it yourself, rather than guessing, if you type Kwanzaa in Search.) I believe that it was started to honor the heritage of Africans and African Americans. I have no idea how widely it is celebrated in Africa, but in the U.S. I think that it's observed more by younger African American families than the older ones. Because it is not really celebrated in church, it's observance is basically an individual choice, depending on how much meaning the observation has.
We get a couple of Kwanzaa cards a year, so if we're any indication (and we have a large African American side of our family and many African American friends) it hasn't yet become a major celebration in the black community.

It's always best if you don't really know much about something, to read about it on the internet. No sense guessing, when the information is at your fingertips.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM

Christmas is also an invention of marketers, at least as we celebrate it today. Depending upon which Christian country you are from, or your ancestors were from, and whether you/they are celebrants of Eastern Rite, Roman Catholic, or Protestant (not to mention which calendar is used), the date of the winter celebration we in the US and parts of Western Europe refer to as "Christmas" can differ from today (Happy St. Nicholas' Day!) to the end of the Feast of Epiphany on January 6th.

So you see, not even all Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th. The idea that this is a universal Christian holiday is totally erroneous, and a belief usually held by poorly educated Americans, who have a tendency not to see beyond their own noses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:46 PM

Kwanzaa appears to be a holiday created for a special interest group.

mmario, your explanation doesn't justify this piece of politically correct invented holiday drivel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: MMario
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM

Guest - January 6th is the BEGINNING of the Feast of Epiphany.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:07 PM

All holidays are created for a special interest group, Martin...

Or maybe "invented" isn't the right word. Some, like Christmas and Hannakuh are a rememberance of a particular event, as is the 4th of July. Holidays like Veteran's Day and Labor day are an observance of
a "special interest" group, I guess you could say. But it is not a remberance of a particular event.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:09 PM

MartinGibson, are you upset that the origins of this observation are visible? So I guess you don't like Earth Day, or the Fourth of July, or Memorial Day, Labor Day, or Veteran's Day?

    Dr. Maulana Karenga is the creator of the holiday of Kwanzaa; Professor and Chair of the Department of Black Studies, California State University at Long Beach; Chairman of The Organization Us and The National Association of Kawaida Organizations; and author of the African American Holiday of Kwanzaa: A Celebration of Family, Community and Culture, The Million Man March/Day of Absence Mission Statement and co-author of The Million Man March/Day of Absence: A Commemorative Anthology.

    December, 1994

    Kwanzaa is organized around five fundamental activities: 1) ingathering of the people which reaffirms the bonds between them; 2) special reverence for the Creator and creation which recognizes and reaffirms the bond of mutuality between the divine, social and the natural; 3) commemoration of the past which is directed toward honoring and emulating the ancestors and understanding the meaning and obligations of our history; 4) recommitment to our highest cultural values, especially our moral and spiritual ones; and 5) celebration of the Good of life, i.e., life itself, love, sisterhood/brotherhood, family, community, the earth and universe, the human person and human possibilities, our struggle, history and culture.


http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:18 PM

I shouldn't think any of that would sound too different to one of the original disciples of Jesus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:19 PM

SRS, I do like those holidays such as the ones that you mentioned with the exception of Earth Day which is also an invented holiday that is self serving to a special interest group. The other holidays are certified national holidays and observances for all peoples of America, and does not require you to buy a Hallmark card. You are truly comparing apples to oranges and I don't at all buy into it.

Kwanzaa is something Hallmark jumped on the bandwagon with. It is of a newly created, self-serving, me-too type of non-observance created for the self-estemm of a special interest group. Who needs a special day to do what is mandated by this so called holiday?

Sorry, but recognizing this day for anything other than some politically correct reason is just another sneseless far left liberal cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: mg
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:44 PM

Why would anyone begruge anyone else a harmless, and in fact, beneficial to society holiday. I have never felt the need to send Kwanza cards made by Hallmark, any more than I send other cards. If I felt the need to send a card, I could print one on my computer or draw one myself. Hallmark has really very little impact on me financially or otherwise. And this is a group of people, in large African Americans although I presume everyone can participate, whose ancestral holidays were stripped from them, and who probably didn't get that much celebration during the "American" holidays. So for heaven's sake. I bet you don't like St. Patrick's day either and it is my very favorite day of the year. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:54 PM

Your right about that. St Patrick's day is a day I completely ignore while I watch others get shit-faced drunk in the name of being Irish.

Not very intellectual.

However, it's been around a while and definately has some folklore about the snakes being driven out and all that. However, it's a day about booze and not much more.

do you get shit-faced drunk on St. Patrick's day, Mary? Oh come on, I'm sure you hoist a few.

Personally, I don't think Afro-americans had any holidays stripped from them, they just didn't have any. And if they did, it's their fault that they have not been able to keep their own culture intact over the generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: tarheel
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:55 PM

oh...come on folks...dont go knocking this holiday.,...
geeezz, ive already bought kwanza gifts for everyone, putting up a kwanza tree outside on december 26th, joining in and going door to door singing kwanza carols with all my friends, you know man...like you know!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:59 PM

Whew! Hey, Martin... you should give a little more thought about the effect of being sold in slavery, as you can certainly identify with it as a jew. The Africans that were sold as slaves weren't one people, like the jews, and didn't even have a common language, let alone a common spiritual heritage. When my wife and I went to Ghana a couple of years ago, it was daunting to find out that there are over 50 different languages, just in Ghana.

And do you really believe that a race that could build the pyramids didn't have any holidays?

C'mon, Martin...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM

Christmas has twelve days,as we all surely know from the song. (So "Kwanza" would be the Second to Eighth day of Christmas). The Epiphany on 6th January is the last day of Christmas, in the Western tradition. Or in the Orthodox tradition, the 6th is the first day of Christmas. Or "Old Christmas Day", as it is sometimes called.

Noone has ever seriously suggested that Christmas Day is supposed to be Jesus's actual birthday, it's just a day picked to celebrate it, at a time of the year when a celebration is needed, and is generally held in most Northern Hemisphere cultures. (And to match up with it March 25th was picked to celebrate the Annunciation.)

I always think it's rough on people in the Southern hemisphere, having Christmas in the middle of summer, and no equivalent feast in the middle of winter, so far as I am aware.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM

MAX< GET THIS SOCIOPATH OFF MUDCAT! I CAN"T STAND IT ANYMORE! DAMMIT< DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIM!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM

I think that in any place that has seasons, people like a midwinter holiday. It's good to know the sun is coming back; it's good to celebrate and give presents. Especially in a dark season. That's all & that's enough.

You can commercialize it, or claim it's holy, or complain about the name, or you can just enjoy it.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:04 PM

The Feast of the Epiphany is not a season but a single day, January 6, also known as Three Kings Day, Twelfth Night (i.e., final day of the "12 Days of Christmas"), and "Little Christmas." It commemorates the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus, and in some Christian cultures, it has been the preferred day for exchanging gifts (in commemoration of the gifts of the three wise men, of course), with Christmas Day reserved for more solemn religious observance.

The Feast of the Epiphany also marks the beginning of Carnival season in cultures where Mardi Gras is observed. This season has no real connection to the Magi; it is a time of year reserved for indugence of the flesh prior to Lent, the season of penitence, when believers are expected to start practicing self-denial. Mardi Gras Day (literally, from the French, "Fat Tuesday") is the final day before Lent begins on Ash Wednesday and the culmination of Carnival season.

Back to Kwanzaa.

I have been scornful/skeptical about Kwanzaa in the past, but have since become much more tolerant of it. I don't think promotion of this new "holiday" was ever a commercially-inspired "Hallmark" effort, just a well-intentioned academically-inspired effort to boost the identity and self-esteem of the black community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:05 PM

Guest, you are in breakdown mode. Seek help. Not everyone thinks like you.

Jerry

The Jews have hung onto their holidays and traditions even through slavery. Kwanzaa is a holiday about a race for a race. It has nothing to do with any traditions or events. it cannot be compared to anything Judaic or Christian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:18 PM

"... it cannot be compared to anything Judaic or Christian."

not YET, it cant.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM

You're absolutely right, Martin. I would not in any way compare Kwanzaa to Jewish Holidays. The point I was making is that you CAN'T compare Kwanzaa to Jewish Holidays. First of all, it is not a religious holiday and doesn't commenorate a particular point in the history of African-Americans. The reason why we both agree that you can't compare the holidays is because you can't compare the people or their history. The Israelites had a powerful single faith and were one people. They had a common history. The Africans that were sold into slavery came from many, many different cultures, spoke different languages and had different spiritual beliefs. They were slaves, not because they had a common heritage or religion. It was just about money.

From my point of view it is precisely because Africans sold into slavery had such a radically different history that you can't compare their experience to that of the Jews when they were in slavery. They are as much apples and orangutans as are jews and contemporary Iraquis. It's not illuminating to even compare them. The one common experience that Africans and jews had was that they were sold into slavery.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:34 PM

Actually, Christmas only has 12 days if you live in a culture that celebrates that custom. The celebration of 12 days isn't universal. No holiday is, regardless of what religion, nationality, culture, or calendar you are talking about.

My objection is to the nearly universal insistence AMONG CHRISTIAN AMERICANS AND CHRISTIAN BRITS that there is a universal custom, date, tradition that means "Christmas" to all Christians. There isn't.

Nor is there a universal acceptance of the Christian holiday of Christmas around the world. Most human beings on this planet DO NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS OR EXCHANGE "SEASONAL" CHRISTMAS TYPE GREETINGS!!!

God, hegemony is certainly alive and well among this bunch!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:35 PM

However, it's a day about booze and not much more.

Martin, you're buying the old bigotted Victorian English spin (see Punch magazine caricatures), adopted by naive Americans, on activity that has little to do with the Irish observation of the day. Here's a book review that can probably shed some light on this for you, since you likely won't take my word for it.

Personally, I don't think Afro-americans had any holidays stripped from them, they just didn't have any. And if they did, it's their fault that they have not been able to keep their own culture intact over the generations.

I bet you buy into the myth that there was no advanced culture or scholarship on the African continent either, eh?

You're a bigger fool than usual today. And as usual, you're wasting people's time.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:52 PM

Among the things I've heard about Kwanzaa is: in some of the areas of Africa from whence the slaves emanated there were harvest festivals at that time of year; besides plentiful produce, the social values noted in Stilly River Sage's posting (6 Dec. 3:09 pm) were celebrated also. Sounds like it could be true. Most cultures have done something very similar.    Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:26 PM

Martin Gibson said, in part:

Earth Day which is also an invented holiday that is self serving to a special interest group.

Ahh, but every holiday (religious OR secular) is intended by the originators or proponents to focus attention on a subject important to them -- thus, "self serving to a special interest group". Now, that special interest group may, over a few or many years, become the majority of a society, and may even have the sponsorship of government, but every such holiday was invented, designed, or modified for what some might call self-congratulatory or public relations purposes. Nothin' wrong with that.

Now there is what I consider an unfortunate tendency for what I call "commercial holiday raiding"--which we see so plainly in Christmas, Valentine's Day, and Easter--and now, according to some posts above, Kwanzaa. That, to me, is offensive, even though the religious holidays mentioned mean little or nothing to me.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:45 PM

Sounds more like your Thanksgiving - a made-up holiday, to bring people together, and mark the fact that you are in in another country, needing some spefial traditions; and sidestepping the religious differences that are linked with most traditional holidays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:17 PM

SRS, you are the only one who wastes your own time but apparently you don't take ownership for that and probably many other things in your life.

what advanced culture or scholarship in Africa? the Univsristy of Loincloth? give me a break. You are a fool for believing that. In order to have some semblence of culture how about a way to document it? Nope. What culture? Was it really ever there? It is you who fall for the myth that all culture is the same. It isn't. There are cultures still in remote parts of Africa that haven't got a clue of the modern world. Don't blame slavery for what wasn't probably there in the first place.

Uncle DaveO., your idea is pure hypothetical and has no fact behind it. same with you bill H. The holidays that mean something through the years meant so not because Hallmark had a card wishing you something. Kwanzaa would be completely unheard of if wasn't a holiday that was strictly a marketed holiday and mentioned by the media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:32 PM

Now Mothers' Day, and even more, Fathers' Day, they really are made-up commercial operations. Mother's Day does have some roots, true enough, but Father's Day! It hasn't ever really taken off here. I don't even know when it is, but the shops do try.

I believe in the USA you even have people trying to work up "Grandparents Day", which seems a bit redunadant, since you can't be a Grandparent without being a Mother or a Father.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:43 PM

Martin Gibson, on the subject of culture and scholarship in Africa your idiocy is truly profound. Where did you learn your Old World history, from radio episodes of Amos and Andy? From the old Looney Tunes cartoons? Maybe from Tarzan movies? Just because you know nothing about the subject doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or have vast worth. You're so hot about telling everyone about what they've been missing. Now take off those dense cultural blinders of yours and take a look around. Start with someone who is very accessible: Wole Soyinka. He is very lucid about life and history in Africa.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:51 PM

Ethiopian Art Heritage Project


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: tarheel
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:26 PM

Lets Face IT!!!holidays are inventions by the POSTAL department and all the other FEDEX, UPS, U-NAME -IT Delivery services, to boost thier profits by years end!!!! my pockets are always empty,by then! how about yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:38 PM

I suppose Martin's against Talk Like a Pirate Day too.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:42 PM

All together too true, tarheel--I couldn't even begin to count all the gifts, both sent and received, that cost more to ship than they were actually worth--

As for Martin Gibson--why does anyone even bother? Happy Holidays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:46 PM

I think Holidays were made up so that we can all insult each other and call each other stupid hypocrites on Mudcat.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM

Am I weird? I don't find a single festival, holiday, holy day or public day off compels me to buy a Hallmark card.... nope, nary a one. It is possible to walk past a Hallmark shop and not go in... it takes willpower, that's all.

In the strictest sense of the word, no Kwanzaa isn't a holiday... but it is a special day. Martin Luther King day isn't a holiday, but it is special. Want to start dissing the Pastor?

LTS


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Subject: I propose a new holiday
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM

In acknoledgement of Martins comtribution to the Mudcat and folk music in general I propose that we have an international WUM day. WUM, of course, standing for 'Wind Up Merchant'.

Martin. I tip my hat in your direction. You are the master...

Cheers

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM

"Personally, I don't think Afro-americans had any holidays stripped from them, they just didn't have any. And if they did, it's their fault that they have not been able to keep their own culture intact over the generations."

Isn't that a bit like blaming the victim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:20 PM

Personally, I find Martin Gibson to be such a bigot that I wonder about his alleged Jewishness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:21 PM

It's never worth arguing with racists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:28 PM

Well, I could give a shit less about Kwanzaa, but I would be interested in celebrating the High Holy Days of Ganza. We could tell the story of how a star shone in the sky and the shepherds gathered up their flocks and prepared to follow the star to a place where they would be sacrificed and eaten along with several truckloads of Twinkies. And the Wise Men spouted platitudes that made no sense and refused to ride their camels because they moved too fast. When they all arrived at the 7-11 where the savior had been born, it had taken so long that the baby was now a full grown man and bore an uncanny resemblance to Hunter Thompson..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:09 PM

Better yet is the holiday of Ganja. Very popular in the islands. Once you start celebrating you forget the reason for the ritual, but the trip is a gas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:22 PM

artbrooks, don't doubt my Jewishness. It's there and in your face. It's there for all of your anti-semitic pleasure. I also have no doubt of you being a pig moron for even bringing that up.

Typical of a few politically correct mentally ill types like Mcgrath who start claiming racist every time they get culturally offended. Which must be daily in the narrow little rose colored world they live in

Yes, dianavan, people can be blamed for not holding on to their culture. If it means something to you, you hold on to it and cherish it. If you have little or no self esteem you do what you can to improve it. Kwanzaa is obviously a "feel good" holiday invented right at the time of the civil rights movement that addresses that issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:36 PM

Once again, Martin Gibson goes galumphing through the Stygian darkness of his own ignorance, his stumbling way illuminated only by the glow of his acne and the shower of sparks from his knuckles dragging on the concrete.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:44 PM

Stupid, Don. Kind of like how your life ended up. Butt out and keep trying to wipe your own ass.

You asked for it, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:48 PM

Missed by a mile, Marty. Have a nice day.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:35 PM

I like Kwanzaa. I don't celebrate it, but I like it because one of the local coffee distributors makes a Kwanzaa blend that's really good and you can only get it for a few weeks each year. As far as I know, coffee has no special significance to the folks who celebrate Kwanzaa so it's probably just another marketing ploy. But the coffee's good and after Kwanzaa's over it gets marked down to half-price.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:27 PM

He certainly does not speak for Jewish people. He isn't the only one who has come from an oppressed background. I'm tired of him trying to deny a scrap of dignity to anyone else.

Why would anyone want to deny Afro-Americans a holiday of their own?

They have created a unique culture in America and should be recognized as a distinct culture. They are every bit as entitled to a special holiday as anyone else. Some will choose it and some will not. Leave it alone. It will develop according to their wishes, not yours, Martin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:39 AM

"If it means something to you, you hold on to it and cherish it."

Cherish does not mean 'ram down others throat until they choke on it'....

If you want to start a tradition you just do something often enough. To paraphrase something I found in an Ian Fleming book:~ Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, third time, it's TRADITION!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:41 AM

Ah Martin--

Your own patented tact, tolerance, and wide-eyed childlike curiosity about the world around you. It's heartwarming.

Just who is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy Kwanzaa cards? Tell them I said you didn't need to.

So the idea of the holiday was invented in California in 1966?   Your point?

Which of the principles do you have a problem with? Self-reliance? Community?

I would think you might be in favor of an idea that encourages black kids to stay in school, not to join gangs, to try to help their community, to have a consciousness about humans' place in the web of life, etc.

It is true that in the services I particiated in, they lit candles, in something like a menorah, for each of the principles. But if you were in a charitable mood----which you always are, of course----you could consider that imitation is the sincerest expression of flattery.


I have sung in several Kwanzaa services in a Unitarian church where one of my groups was singing. We did a mix of stuff, including some madrigals--- and Siyahamba, a great, hypnotic song.

Looking forward to more of your delightful comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:45 AM

Knowing Martin's concern for absolute accuracy in all things: " participated"


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:01 AM

Where is it written that Jews can't be bigots and racists? Are they supposedly somehow exempt as a group??


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Bones
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:18 AM

Hannakuh is a self-serving special intrest group holiday invented by manorah and candle salesmen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:36 AM

Wrong Bones.

It is a holiday commemorating an event. You are full of shit and a liar. Menorahs and candles have been easily available for centuries at hardly any cost.

Greg F., where is it not said that that you are not a fuckface asshole? It's said here that you are. Jews can be bigots and racists, but since they only make up about 2.5% of America, I would say there are much less of them to dodge then the Jew hating Christians out there. Much less.

And finally ron DAVIES, I don't care if you sing in praise of the made up holiday Kwanzaa. If you don't get my "point" you are a bigger fool than most here already know you for. Pathetic that the good principals you mentioned have to be marketed don't you think? Pathetic that you need a made up and invented holiday to remind people of them. It's not a question of race, you have fallen victim to the usual invented, feel good, don't offend political correctness that you need as a crutch in your life.

You're a weak person, ron. very weak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:47 AM

The all-knowing MG saith:

Kwanzaa is obviously a "feel good" holiday invented right at the time of the civil rights movement that addresses that issue.

True. And so????

And I can't forbear to point out that MG's comment "is hypothetical, not based on any hard facts." He knows about that kind of thing.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:51 AM

I'd suggest that we make up a Holiday For Hate, but I think someone already beat me to it.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM

Uncle Dave   

"And so?"

let's have a feel good holiday for orgasms also.

Or a feel good holiday for taking a dump.

don't you agree these thing feel better than Kwanzaa?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:55 PM

Feel better than? I donno... I've never Kwanzaa'd... But what the hell... I'll try anything once...

But if were gonna have days for orgasms and dumps, can we have those on separate days? Not everyone likes a Cleveland Steamer as much as you do MG...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:32 PM

An invented feastday. But has that ever stopped Americans liking "Thanksgiving"? Apart from the odd grouch, no doubt. But you always find them, moaning about every celebration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:34 PM

I usually find myself moaning AFTER every celebration... mostly as a result of overindulgence!

:-P


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:36 PM

A Cleveland Steamer?

How about a NY Sub?

Agreed, separate days, a few times a year at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:41 PM

Oh come on MG... a crude 'ignor-anus' like you... You GOTTA know what a Cleveland Steamer is... I'll bet yer mom gives ya one every year for your Birthday...

Try google...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM

I never heard of this. At first I thought it was a turd. Then perhaps an enema.

I found this:

"The Cleveland Steamer is an independent newsletter based in Cleveland Ohio, focused on politics, current events, pop culture, and all the other crap"

Cleveland sucks. It's a city I would take a dump in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:55 PM

Martin Gibson, I will promise not to think of you as we say our brucha tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:02 PM

Keep looking MG...

I'm sure you'll recognise it when you find it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:12 PM

artbrooks

I will be saying a barucha tonight for Hanukah and hope that you turn into a human being from someone who is so plastic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:13 PM

clinton, there was a bunch of other crap. Which one do YOU identify with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:25 PM

It's more what I identify my perception of YOU with MG

*Big Grin... ya no... really*


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM

What ever it is, Cinton I don't relate to it.

But that turd and enema is perhaps something I relate to you as.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:54 PM

I think I'll go get a colonoscopy on Kwanzaa in honor of MG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:08 PM

I didn't know Martin Gibson was this naive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM

That's a good idea, Guest. they might just find out that you really are a rotton asshole when the test results come back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

On the subject of weakness:

Well now, let's see here.

On one hand we have somebody who always posts giving his own name, who stands behind every word he's ever written on Mudcat, and who believes that any movement which supports good principles should be applauded, not attacked.

On the other hand we have an equal-opportunity bigot who attacks virtually everybody on Mudcat, but who runs whining to higher authority when he thinks he is being impersonated (as if anybody would want to).

When they have encounters --(can't call them debates, since the second person 1) has no concept of debate and 2) can't seem to get out of the bathroom--his continuing obsession),--- the first one routinely and effortlessly slashes the second to ribbons, usually using sarcasm, which works like a charm.

The second person has also never once had the guts to sign his name to any of the pathetic drivel he constantly spouts.

I wonder which of them is the weaker. Sure is a tough choice.

But I'll have to go with Person #2--he wins the prize.

Congratulations, courageous "Martin".


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 07:30 PM

Ron Davies you are such a big man in your own mind because you sign your name.

You are the FAKE Ron Davies.

The Ron Davies I know is smart and is not the bluthering idiot who posts here not sure if he is full of himself or full of shit. He is a real man who does not offend like a big baby and he is tough.

No. You are not the real Ron Davies know matter if you say you are.

And what difference does it make? Maybe I have given my real name to some on the PM side. I won't give it to you Ron Davies, because either way, you are a complete idiot who takes himself too seriously and I won't give you the satisfaction of it.

Time to pick out some naval fuzz, Ron. You got a good crop growing there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:21 PM

"Hot Carl"!

LOL!!!!!!!!!

I'll bet MG is into that too! (Or it might be more accurate to say it's into him...)

Too funny!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: tarheel
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:31 PM

well, as Lucy once told Charlie Brown,in the cartoon tv classic,(explaining what Christmas was all about))"it's all run by a big eastern syndicate,you know!" .....food for thought!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:08 AM

Hey. This is pretty good !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:50 AM

Martin Gibson,

Why all the rancor? I don't understand your reasoning. If I were to declare Emperor Norton a saint - which he was, more so than Mother Teresa - and celebrate his birthday, you might consider me a lunatic. In fact, I am. But where do you find all this wrongeous indignation over things that have little or no bearing on your daily life? This kind of thing takes more energy than it's worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:41 AM

Martin---

I note with interest your latest (rather short) screed.

Tell you what.

Hanukkah has started.

As Joni Mitchell says "It's coming on Christmas"---amazingly fast.

I wish you--in all seriousness--this is not meant sarcastically--a great Hanukkah. I hope it makes you less angry at the world.

Although I know it entertains Little Hawk (and possibly others)---as Rod Stewart says "I know I keep you amused/ But I fear I'm being used"----I think we should have a truce--consider it our version of the medieval Truce of God. I don't intend to attack you at least for the month of December, no matter what you say. If you want, we can resume in January.

I'm sorry you don't think Kwanzaa deserves to exist. But to paraphrase--was it Patrick Henry?---if this be weakness, make the most of it.

At any rate, as I said, the duel can recommence in January, if you want.   It's not necessary even then.

I do have better things to do now--like for instance get out of Mudcat membership limbo--still having problems with my "cookie",-- get ready for my caroling party, family stuff, Christmas concerts, continue my search for a reliable contractor, get back to reading more, etc.


So--Happy Hanukkah


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:39 AM

OK, Ron Davies

Actually I don't consider it a feud at all. You post. I respond.

You offend easily. I don't.

I have a suggestion. If what I say bothers you, let it go. When I make a comment or observation such as the nonsense of criticizing a non-holiday like Kwanzaa which was started by a former convicted gang member who reaps many royalties from the sale of candles and products that he has a copyrighted interest in, please don't accuse me of being a racist when I tell it like it is. This political correctness thing about not being able to criticize someone or something is what many are finally waking up to as being total bullshit.

Otherwise, sure why not. Have a fine Holiday season.

Little Hawk, we'll see what else happens, OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

Glad you enjoyed that, Clinton. I still don't think Martin Gibson gets it. Done it, probably, but gets it? I doubt it. He's slow that way.

By the way Martin, when you say "You offend easily. I don't," I have to disagree. You offend very easily. In fact you have a marvelous natural talent for offending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:35 PM

I don't think Martin ever looks anything up, Hot Carl--


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:27 PM

why does anyone even reply to this racist prick?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:57 PM

I could give a shit what a Hot Carl is. It sounds like some fag expression that Guest would most be familiar with.

Yeah, a Hot Carl is your own dick, Guest, soaked in rum and put in your butt buddies ass.

this is what it really is, Guest and I could give a shit what you say it is and I don't care. You are a Jew hater and represent everything that is wrong with Mudcat.

You should completely eat shit, die, and rot with your "Hot Carl" left sticking in your butt buddies ass, completely impregnated in it, and completely there for all eternity, so help me God, but no thank you Jesus.

Fuck you in the nose, Guest

and MTed, you are the butt buddy who can't get that Hot Carl out of his ass, so it just sitds there causing you to be more full of shit than Hot Carl himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Tiny Tim Cratchit
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:03 PM

God bless us, every one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:36 PM

MG, I agree with you that Kwanzaa is an invented holiday. As you say: If you have little or no self esteem you do what you can to improve it. Kwanzaa is obviously a "feel good" holiday invented right at the time of the civil rights movement that addresses that issue.

So what is so wrong with this? Why object to what people who have been oppressed do to increase their self-esteem?

The only thing I have ever objected to about Kwanzaa is when its presented either as an ancient African holiday, as it sometimes is, or when people display egregious ignorance in talking about it. I once looked at a book in Borders Book Shop that said "Kwanzaa is based on a holiday from Kenya, a country in West Africa." I thought: if this bozo can't even get out a map to check out where Kenya is, why should I believe anything she says about Kwanzaa?

Another thing that bothers some of my Jewish friends about Kwanzaa is the fact that it uses a ritual candleholder called a Kinara. The word is usually pronounced by the teachers and celebrants I know as "kenora," to rhyme with "Menorah." A lot of Jews feel this was ripped off directly from Hanukkah. I suspect they're right, but I don't begrudge African-Americans the use of the symbol, so it doesn't bother me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:06 PM

Well, I take it all back! Looking at his last message, it looks like Martin Gibson knows a lot about Cleveland steamers and such like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:09 PM

Let them ban rap music first as the poison to the minds of black youth that it is and maybe I'll change my mind.

i do not think there should be "holidays" based on race, especially ones invented by entrepreneurs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:15 PM

Guest,Hot Carl I can assure you that I never heard of those fag expressions that you gleefully particpate in before you and Clinton "The Organ" Hammond seem to know so much about.

Hat to smell your dick, buddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:35 PM

You really are in need of a good slap MG... I was wondering how long it would be before you ignorance came blazing forth in a stream of childish language and hate... only you managed to run it up the flag pole with your homophobia and bigotry as well... congratulations...

I would, in some instances even defend you to others... no longer...

Someone ban this twit please...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,winterbright
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:45 PM

I'm skipping the last 2/3 of this thread because I have better things to do with my time. Just want to say that I think Kwanzaa is a great holiday. If everybody practised the 7 principles that Kwanzaa espouses, we'd all be a lot saner, friendlier, and better off.
I lead a Kwanzaa-related service at my church every year on the Sunday after Christmas. We light the candle appropriate to that day and I talk about the principle ("unity" this year), then we drum and sing and have a good time. The world needs more holidays!
I'm a white, female Unitarian Universalist.
Happy Hannusolstichriszaa!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:57 PM

Martin, if you've never heard of them, how do you know they're fag expressions?

Care for a chocolate popsicle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:02 PM

Fuck off clinton, you are far from popular here yourself.

My pleasure to offend you. You can dish it out but you can't take it because you are a total loser. You started this Cleveland Steamer and Hot Carl thing and then when it's not funny to you any longer you start whining because it came back to bite you, not me.

Criticizing something doesn't make one a bigot.

Guest, winterbright i'm glad I don't go to your church.

don't you think your Christian followers can be shown the light without using a Hallmark holiday invented by a convicted ex-gang member as part of your agenda. Or is that too politically correct for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:35 PM

once again i query the mudcatters, why does anyone respond to this foul-mouthed, racist prick?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:37 PM

Not funny? No, you're very funny, Martin. Latents who come on as fag haters are always funny. Not funny "haha," but funny peculiar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:53 PM

Uh,, excuse me Hot Carl, but 11 states just shot down gay marriage. Now that's funny.

It's not a question of hating fags, Hot Carl.

it's just that I have no use for them and their perversions, that's all. they can do as they want as long as they don't do it in front of me and I don't have to do anything that appeases them. too bad if you are offended. that's your problem, not mine.

You know why they respond, guest? because the truth just sometimes hurts.

I would suggest that you stop reading my posts if you are so uncomfortable with them which you obviously are. Too bad for you. Deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:13 PM

"then when it's not funny to you any longer"
Oh but it is funny... watching you flap you stupid face without a single clue what it is you're talking about... again... still...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:30 PM

Martin--

I'm surprised you don't see our little clashes as a feud, especially since they've been on many threads since, I think, about May.

I can assure you that most of the "spectators" do think it's a feud, with reactions ranging from enthusastic--"Thanks for the show"--- to tolerant amusement---to disgust--"That's not what Mudcat is for".

As I said, Happy Hanukkah. Take care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:46 PM

Happy Hanukkah


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 07:23 PM

"it's just that I have no use for them and their perversions, that's all. they can do as they want as long as they don't do it in front of me..."

They did it in front of you?!?!

Where were you hangin' out buddy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:08 PM

Read, idiot Guest. No one said they did anything in front of me you stupid moron.

Clinton, I just love to yank your smarmy faced chain. You are a fool. And you think anyone else knows what you babble about? Hardly. Except maybe one of your butt buddies. Go stick your Hot Carl up your ass far enough until it's in your mouth.

Martian, Happy Mars attacks day. Ack. Ack.

BTW, Ron, I still say it's not been a feud. It's just been one 6 month long yank of your politically correct fat ass, that's all. Happy Holiday to you, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:19 PM

Martin---

Most Mudcatters disagree with you on the "feud" business.   And I think most are probably tired of it, likely also bored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:22 PM

Who cares?

I don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:25 PM

The more things change . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:31 AM

Yes it is an invented holiday. Yes it is recent. They all were at some point. They could only be celebrated for centuries if they started somewhere.

Kwanza was started by a people who became one on the basis of discrimination. The thing that caused the discrimination, slavery, beatings, murder, and destruction of the varied native cultures that they came from, was the same thing that brought these peoples together. It was their skin color. It was the common bond. As they went through their trials, eventually a common desire to tie to the various cultures that spawned them emerged. And so these peoples created a holiday. They created it to share the beauty of these ancient civilizations and their values, but more importantly it was created to reclaim the pride in where they came from. That is not a bad thing, nor is it deserving of the vitriol with which this person spits out the predicate of this thread.

Martin Gibson points out a sad fact. He points out that intellect and decency have nothing to do with each other. Often the sadist, or the perverse person, is intelligent, in fact above average. Martin takes delight in seeing you all dance. I wish he could see the sickness involved, but he cannot. He is a lost cause and if I had my way, I would ban him indeed. But the rest of you can help yourselves. You can cease playing the game that he wants you to play. He says this stuff so you will react. That is how he derives what passes for pleasure in his sick world. But then again, maybe this is how many of you manage to get some pleasure too.


Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:53 AM

MG is indeed beyond redemption, he is a sick sad old bastard who does not care for the well being and feelings of others. You are correct he is to sick in the head himself to see the sickness involved for others. He will reply he does not care about others, which is again proof of his sick moron traits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:18 AM

I'm with Big Mick on this one.

Whether you think Kwanzaa should exist or not (I do; one more holiday is no bad thing in this increasingly hectic world), it is here to stay. Kinda like Bush Jr. in the White House for the next 4 years. Deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:04 PM

If MG isn't a latent closet queen, then why does react the way he does?

Classic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:37 PM

Big Mick and others.

It's actually all of you who are having the hard time dealing with it.

In you politically correct worlds it is I who perceive many of you as sick. You really can't deal with much criticism of something so you lash out and accuse.

I guarantee you a clean bill of health here and functioning quite normally with normal people. Is a Guest who calls himself Hot Carl normal?

You know what some of your problems are? when people express their true feelings on something your undies start to crawl up your crack. and Big Mick, from what I understand you have one big crack.

I think Kwanzaa is a stupid holiday self serving to a race that thinks it's entitled to no criticism. it makes you the sick one when you try to suppress the feelings of others.

Cluin, so what if Kwanzaa is here to stay? If it's here to stay, you had better get used to criticism of it and anything else that is about bullshit. So, you deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:42 PM

No problem with criticism of anything at all, Martin. But you've had your say. We've heard your opinion on the subject already.
You've got nothing new to add, so now you're just trying to jerk people around (which I admit isn't too hard around here unfortunately) because you're bored or something. And I've got better things to do that deal with that, but I won't begrudge you your fun. A very merry un-Christmas to ya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:16 PM

Christmas is not my holiday, so I don't care.

Most definately, neither is Kwanzaa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:19 PM

Everybody's wrong, everybody's crazy, and everybody's a pervert but Martin. He's the only person on earth who's normal.

Total psycho.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:20 PM

Christmas is everyones holiday


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: number 6
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:26 PM

I'll have another Moosehead .... lager


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:34 PM

Happy Kwankaa


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:53 PM

Kwanzaa is no more an invention than any other holiday. All holidays were "invented" for some reason or other. Actually, Kwanzaa is an attempt to celebrate African-American traditions. No one in their right mind would insist that there are no African-American traditions. It can't be compared to religious holidays because it has more of a cultural base than a religious one. But even Christmas is more of a pagan holiday than it is a Christian one. Christ was certainly not born on December 25th according to the most reputable scholars of biblical history. The Christmas tree, the yule log and the giving of presents have more to do with pagan traditions. Thanksgiving was an arbitrary holiday declared by past presidents. Chanukkah, a festival of lights and taken for the eight days of oil that sustained Jews has it's origins in antiquity and is probably more ancient than many of the other holidays we celebrate but it was originated as a holiday by someone and is honored as a religious and a cultural holiday.

Kwanzaa is for the purpose of honoring the African-American cultural life which; I support whole-heartedly and think of it as much deeper than a Hallmark card.
It isn't for the purpose of commercialization (that is nonsense) but for the solidarity of a specific cultural group and in the same way that Christians and Jews band together culturally for Passover or Easter. To denigrate it is to also denigrate any other accepted holiday in America.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:46 PM

Who says it's accepted Frank.

Most Afro Americans don't have much to do with it from what I have heard.

And you are quite wrong when you don't think people are making money off of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:49 PM

I have to admit that I have been walking funny since Clinton boned me. But there's not much there to hurt that much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:13 PM

And by the way, Martin, it is African American, not Afro American. An Afro is a hairstyle. Have fun with that bit of political correctness.

There is something wrong with a person who uses crude terminology at the drop of a hat criticizing someone for using the name Hot Carl. The fact that you can't see that it is you that has the problem is why I say you are beyond help. A shame really, but a fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:49 AM

"...stupid holiday self serving to a race that thinks it's entitled to no criticism."

MG is a racist prick. i hear he's also very fat, over 350 pounds and has a dick so small that he can't find it inside all the folds. he really envies those darkies with the 10 inchers. i've heard he'll crawl on his knees for a half a mile for a chance to suck on one of those. (hey, how'm i doin' MG? when i grow up i wanna be as much of a foul-mouthed , racist, knuckle-dragging prick as you. tho nobody can ever be as good at it as you, you hot, hot , hot, hunk of flaming poopoo!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:45 AM

Oh, Guest you are just full of crap.

Not even clever. I just love to make you squirm. You are weak and are just so easy to offend.

Big Mick, do you wear your pubic hair in an Afro? Can you even see "it" without looking in a mirror?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:20 PM

Martin is his own worst enemy--I must admit that sometimes it is funny to see how, no matter how hard he tries to be serious, within a few posts, he falls into the toilet--it gets a little tiresome to see it happen so often, though, and I suspect that, though there is fair amount of real outrage at the things he says, there are a few who bait him deliberately--remember the spirit of the season, everybody!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:31 PM

You don't get it Mted. I just don't take it seriously at all.

It's me who's got guys like you squirming. I could give a damn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,The Real Hot Carl
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:39 PM

And there, fellow unregistered GUESTs is one of the hazards of deciding to stay unregistered. Any sick-o, like, say, Martin Gibson, can log out, come back on as "GUEST,whoever," and post anything they want under that GUEST's tag.

The last "GUEST,Hot Carl", at 09 Dec 04 - 06:19 PM is not the real me. I've never even met Clinton. In fact, we're many hundred miles apart. Too bad. Although a bit surly at times, he seems to be a gentleman of clear perception (which may account for his sometimes being surly). I would happily buy him a beer, but that would be the extent of the relationship.

The prime suspect, since he is obviously warped enough, and since he is incapable of winning a battle of wits with me, or anyone, because he is totally witless and therefore has to resort to cheesy tactics like this is obviously Martin Gibson.

How sad is THAT?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:58 PM

Martin, I have a news flash for you. Everyone here is not stupid or reactionary. Your comment about pubic hair, designed to bait me, failed miserably. It only demonstrates the point I make. You do these things to make folks dance, so you can take some perverse pleasure in it. Do you do this to make up for other inadequacies? I am just curious. You really do come off as an ignorant person of low self esteem. I don't live that far away, and I am sure we could hook you up with some counseling.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:47 PM

I'm not squirming, Martin--

If you could give a damn, then why bother to do the same thing, over and over? It looks a lot like you need a lot of attention, and you say any outrageous thing you can to get it--the only thing is that you can't hold it together once you've got the attention--What would your family say if they saw string of posts you've left? Your rabbi? Your doctor?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

Nom Hot Carl or Hot fece or whatever you call yourself. it was someone else, not me. I only post under Martin gibson. If you are so worried about people stealing your pathetic identity please register as Hot Carl and see how seriously anyone takes you then, you moron.

big Mick, but you were baited because you responded exactly how I thought you would. Thanks for wasting your time dwelling on it.

MTed, funny, I've been told I have a big ego. You say I have low self esteem. I say, you've nothing better to do than read my posts and respond to them. Please get a life. Or at least try to have some fun here like I do. what would your family say if they knew you date other men?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:00 PM

Is it odd
the God Fraud Squad
of Falwell Robertson and Graham
hate the Kwanza extravaganza.

No

I think they holler
about the dollar
and loss of 20%
missed for white Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:16 PM

I just said you need a lot of attention--you're the one that brought up low self esteem--


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:27 PM

Actually Big Dick I mean Big Mick brought it up Mted. I wasn't responding exclusively to just your ridiculous and untrue accusations.

Do you know Hot Carl? I think he would want to meet you. I wouldn't want to meet him. He's a walking case of HIV positive disease from his encounters with his boyfriends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:57 PM

Getting sadder all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:02 PM

Getting sadder for you Hot Carl or whatever your real posting name is.

You are toast. Burnt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:03 PM

Mr. Ted

I have medium self esteem. Something you seldom read about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:04 PM

When MG started this thread it had some content-- not much, but some. Now that it's only peevish name calling on several sides, I'm outa here.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:24 PM

That's because of the easily offended radical lefties who gasp and show how intolerant they really are when someone criticizes something in their narrow little politically correct world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:43 PM

It was Martin's thread, and, typically, he's the one that trashed it, though there are many who encouraged him to do it--


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

I only trashed morons like you, Mted. I squite successfully got my point across in this thread and had a few like you squirming over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 02:03 PM

And what point was that, numb-nuts? You seem to be the only one who's squirming. You were gone all day yesterday and we all thought you'd given it up, but here you are, back again for more.

I'm sure that among the black community, opinions like yours carry a lot of weight.

Pathetic.

(Now you're going to come back and tell me how you don't give a shit about what the black community thinks and then tell me how pathetic I am. There. I've done all your work for you. Take the rest of the day off.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 05:46 PM

And you did a fine job of it, Hot Carl with the exception of me telling you that I was too busy yesterday with family and friends while you had a lead pipe up your scabby asshole waiting for me to respond.

It's you who is pathetic. You will be out of here soon, I guarantee it, Hot Carl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:44 PM

Hilarious! His compulsion to have the last word is like a permanently attached tether. All I have to do is post a line or two and this weenie comes back like a paddle-ball.

How does it feel to keep banging your head like this? Oh, that's right. You've been dropped on your head so many times you don't even notice it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,bflat
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:29 AM

If it is important to one, two or more people to celebrate than who am I to judge? But, for a chuckle, listen to John Forester's song The All Purpose Carol, I think that is the title, for a melody that does not exclude any holiday found about this time of year.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM

Guest, it's you who has their weenie head in your own mouth while I laugh at your sad Guest-ass.

You are pathetic. Fuck you and die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:40 AM

"You are pathetic. Fuck you and die."

Come come now MG what would the Rabbi say if he knew you were saying thinks like this. He would probably sow your foreskin back on and maybe not were it came from originally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 01:24 PM

Hot Carl, Martin never posts to Mudcat between Friday and Sunday because there is a prohibition against telling people "fuck you and die" on Shabbas--


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:25 PM

What would your priest do MTed if he knew you were competing with him and Hot Carl on the young boy sex market?

In other words, leave my rabbi and my religion out of it. You don't know him and he probably would not want to know you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM

MG you seem to miss the point, your rabbi would not wish to know YOU if he new YOU acted in such a dispicable way as you do on here. I bet your botton dollar you would not dare speak to him in the disgusting way you do to others on this forum - hence you are a very foney individual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: annamill
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:06 PM

I feel that ANY day set aside to celebrate and enjoy any reason or life is totally worthwhile!

Let's have some more non-religious, non-traditional holidays!!

What is it the White Rabbit sang .. It's a very, merry UNbirthday..?

Love, Annamill

PS: Martin, you need help and a hug, Baby..


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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 04:33 PM

I'm all for celebrating Kwanzaa, or any occasion that encourages pride of accomplishment, respect for heritage and traditions and a desire to live a more moral life. Kwanzaa is not basically a materialistic celebration to sell cards (and certainly not gifts, as none are exchanged.) We don't send out Kwanzaa cards and only receive a couple a year, so this isn't a Mother Lode for Hallmark. And, most of the Kwanzaa cards I see are produced by small, black-owned card companies.

As half of my family are African-American, some only two generations removed from slavery, I see the good in the observation. Do I need it? No, I don't need it.

But then, I sure don't need the ugly, profane interchanges of this thread.

How about bringing a little peace to the Cat and deep-sixing this thread?

Jerry


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 28 February 7:45 PM EST

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