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BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: dianavan Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:27 PM He certainly does not speak for Jewish people. He isn't the only one who has come from an oppressed background. I'm tired of him trying to deny a scrap of dignity to anyone else. Why would anyone want to deny Afro-Americans a holiday of their own? They have created a unique culture in America and should be recognized as a distinct culture. They are every bit as entitled to a special holiday as anyone else. Some will choose it and some will not. Leave it alone. It will develop according to their wishes, not yours, Martin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:35 PM I like Kwanzaa. I don't celebrate it, but I like it because one of the local coffee distributors makes a Kwanzaa blend that's really good and you can only get it for a few weeks each year. As far as I know, coffee has no special significance to the folks who celebrate Kwanzaa so it's probably just another marketing ploy. But the coffee's good and after Kwanzaa's over it gets marked down to half-price. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Don Firth Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:48 PM Missed by a mile, Marty. Have a nice day. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:44 PM Stupid, Don. Kind of like how your life ended up. Butt out and keep trying to wipe your own ass. You asked for it, Don. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Don Firth Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:36 PM Once again, Martin Gibson goes galumphing through the Stygian darkness of his own ignorance, his stumbling way illuminated only by the glow of his acne and the shower of sparks from his knuckles dragging on the concrete. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:22 PM artbrooks, don't doubt my Jewishness. It's there and in your face. It's there for all of your anti-semitic pleasure. I also have no doubt of you being a pig moron for even bringing that up. Typical of a few politically correct mentally ill types like Mcgrath who start claiming racist every time they get culturally offended. Which must be daily in the narrow little rose colored world they live in Yes, dianavan, people can be blamed for not holding on to their culture. If it means something to you, you hold on to it and cherish it. If you have little or no self esteem you do what you can to improve it. Kwanzaa is obviously a "feel good" holiday invented right at the time of the civil rights movement that addresses that issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: GUEST,marks Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:09 PM Better yet is the holiday of Ganja. Very popular in the islands. Once you start celebrating you forget the reason for the ritual, but the trip is a gas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:28 PM Well, I could give a shit less about Kwanzaa, but I would be interested in celebrating the High Holy Days of Ganza. We could tell the story of how a star shone in the sky and the shepherds gathered up their flocks and prepared to follow the star to a place where they would be sacrificed and eaten along with several truckloads of Twinkies. And the Wise Men spouted platitudes that made no sense and refused to ride their camels because they moved too fast. When they all arrived at the 7-11 where the savior had been born, it had taken so long that the baby was now a full grown man and bore an uncanny resemblance to Hunter Thompson.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:21 PM It's never worth arguing with racists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: artbrooks Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:20 PM Personally, I find Martin Gibson to be such a bigot that I wonder about his alleged Jewishness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: dianavan Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM "Personally, I don't think Afro-americans had any holidays stripped from them, they just didn't have any. And if they did, it's their fault that they have not been able to keep their own culture intact over the generations." Isn't that a bit like blaming the victim? |
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Subject: I propose a new holiday From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM In acknoledgement of Martins comtribution to the Mudcat and folk music in general I propose that we have an international WUM day. WUM, of course, standing for 'Wind Up Merchant'. Martin. I tip my hat in your direction. You are the master... Cheers :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:59 PM Am I weird? I don't find a single festival, holiday, holy day or public day off compels me to buy a Hallmark card.... nope, nary a one. It is possible to walk past a Hallmark shop and not go in... it takes willpower, that's all. In the strictest sense of the word, no Kwanzaa isn't a holiday... but it is a special day. Martin Luther King day isn't a holiday, but it is special. Want to start dissing the Pastor? LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:46 PM I think Holidays were made up so that we can all insult each other and call each other stupid hypocrites on Mudcat. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: M.Ted Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:42 PM All together too true, tarheel--I couldn't even begin to count all the gifts, both sent and received, that cost more to ship than they were actually worth-- As for Martin Gibson--why does anyone even bother? Happy Holidays. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:38 PM I suppose Martin's against Talk Like a Pirate Day too. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: tarheel Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:26 PM Lets Face IT!!!holidays are inventions by the POSTAL department and all the other FEDEX, UPS, U-NAME -IT Delivery services, to boost thier profits by years end!!!! my pockets are always empty,by then! how about yours? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:51 PM Ethiopian Art Heritage Project |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:43 PM Martin Gibson, on the subject of culture and scholarship in Africa your idiocy is truly profound. Where did you learn your Old World history, from radio episodes of Amos and Andy? From the old Looney Tunes cartoons? Maybe from Tarzan movies? Just because you know nothing about the subject doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or have vast worth. You're so hot about telling everyone about what they've been missing. Now take off those dense cultural blinders of yours and take a look around. Start with someone who is very accessible: Wole Soyinka. He is very lucid about life and history in Africa. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:32 PM Now Mothers' Day, and even more, Fathers' Day, they really are made-up commercial operations. Mother's Day does have some roots, true enough, but Father's Day! It hasn't ever really taken off here. I don't even know when it is, but the shops do try. I believe in the USA you even have people trying to work up "Grandparents Day", which seems a bit redunadant, since you can't be a Grandparent without being a Mother or a Father. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:17 PM SRS, you are the only one who wastes your own time but apparently you don't take ownership for that and probably many other things in your life. what advanced culture or scholarship in Africa? the Univsristy of Loincloth? give me a break. You are a fool for believing that. In order to have some semblence of culture how about a way to document it? Nope. What culture? Was it really ever there? It is you who fall for the myth that all culture is the same. It isn't. There are cultures still in remote parts of Africa that haven't got a clue of the modern world. Don't blame slavery for what wasn't probably there in the first place. Uncle DaveO., your idea is pure hypothetical and has no fact behind it. same with you bill H. The holidays that mean something through the years meant so not because Hallmark had a card wishing you something. Kwanzaa would be completely unheard of if wasn't a holiday that was strictly a marketed holiday and mentioned by the media. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:45 PM Sounds more like your Thanksgiving - a made-up holiday, to bring people together, and mark the fact that you are in in another country, needing some spefial traditions; and sidestepping the religious differences that are linked with most traditional holidays. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:26 PM Martin Gibson said, in part: Earth Day which is also an invented holiday that is self serving to a special interest group. Ahh, but every holiday (religious OR secular) is intended by the originators or proponents to focus attention on a subject important to them -- thus, "self serving to a special interest group". Now, that special interest group may, over a few or many years, become the majority of a society, and may even have the sponsorship of government, but every such holiday was invented, designed, or modified for what some might call self-congratulatory or public relations purposes. Nothin' wrong with that. Now there is what I consider an unfortunate tendency for what I call "commercial holiday raiding"--which we see so plainly in Christmas, Valentine's Day, and Easter--and now, according to some posts above, Kwanzaa. That, to me, is offensive, even though the religious holidays mentioned mean little or nothing to me. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Tannywheeler Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:52 PM Among the things I've heard about Kwanzaa is: in some of the areas of Africa from whence the slaves emanated there were harvest festivals at that time of year; besides plentiful produce, the social values noted in Stilly River Sage's posting (6 Dec. 3:09 pm) were celebrated also. Sounds like it could be true. Most cultures have done something very similar. Tw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:35 PM However, it's a day about booze and not much more. Martin, you're buying the old bigotted Victorian English spin (see Punch magazine caricatures), adopted by naive Americans, on activity that has little to do with the Irish observation of the day. Here's a book review that can probably shed some light on this for you, since you likely won't take my word for it. Personally, I don't think Afro-americans had any holidays stripped from them, they just didn't have any. And if they did, it's their fault that they have not been able to keep their own culture intact over the generations. I bet you buy into the myth that there was no advanced culture or scholarship on the African continent either, eh? You're a bigger fool than usual today. And as usual, you're wasting people's time. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:34 PM Actually, Christmas only has 12 days if you live in a culture that celebrates that custom. The celebration of 12 days isn't universal. No holiday is, regardless of what religion, nationality, culture, or calendar you are talking about. My objection is to the nearly universal insistence AMONG CHRISTIAN AMERICANS AND CHRISTIAN BRITS that there is a universal custom, date, tradition that means "Christmas" to all Christians. There isn't. Nor is there a universal acceptance of the Christian holiday of Christmas around the world. Most human beings on this planet DO NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS OR EXCHANGE "SEASONAL" CHRISTMAS TYPE GREETINGS!!! God, hegemony is certainly alive and well among this bunch! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM You're absolutely right, Martin. I would not in any way compare Kwanzaa to Jewish Holidays. The point I was making is that you CAN'T compare Kwanzaa to Jewish Holidays. First of all, it is not a religious holiday and doesn't commenorate a particular point in the history of African-Americans. The reason why we both agree that you can't compare the holidays is because you can't compare the people or their history. The Israelites had a powerful single faith and were one people. They had a common history. The Africans that were sold into slavery came from many, many different cultures, spoke different languages and had different spiritual beliefs. They were slaves, not because they had a common heritage or religion. It was just about money. From my point of view it is precisely because Africans sold into slavery had such a radically different history that you can't compare their experience to that of the Jews when they were in slavery. They are as much apples and orangutans as are jews and contemporary Iraquis. It's not illuminating to even compare them. The one common experience that Africans and jews had was that they were sold into slavery. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:18 PM "... it cannot be compared to anything Judaic or Christian." not YET, it cant..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:05 PM Guest, you are in breakdown mode. Seek help. Not everyone thinks like you. Jerry The Jews have hung onto their holidays and traditions even through slavery. Kwanzaa is a holiday about a race for a race. It has nothing to do with any traditions or events. it cannot be compared to anything Judaic or Christian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: PoppaGator Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:04 PM The Feast of the Epiphany is not a season but a single day, January 6, also known as Three Kings Day, Twelfth Night (i.e., final day of the "12 Days of Christmas"), and "Little Christmas." It commemorates the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus, and in some Christian cultures, it has been the preferred day for exchanging gifts (in commemoration of the gifts of the three wise men, of course), with Christmas Day reserved for more solemn religious observance. The Feast of the Epiphany also marks the beginning of Carnival season in cultures where Mardi Gras is observed. This season has no real connection to the Magi; it is a time of year reserved for indugence of the flesh prior to Lent, the season of penitence, when believers are expected to start practicing self-denial. Mardi Gras Day (literally, from the French, "Fat Tuesday") is the final day before Lent begins on Ash Wednesday and the culmination of Carnival season. Back to Kwanzaa. I have been scornful/skeptical about Kwanzaa in the past, but have since become much more tolerant of it. I don't think promotion of this new "holiday" was ever a commercially-inspired "Hallmark" effort, just a well-intentioned academically-inspired effort to boost the identity and self-esteem of the black community. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM I think that in any place that has seasons, people like a midwinter holiday. It's good to know the sun is coming back; it's good to celebrate and give presents. Especially in a dark season. That's all & that's enough. You can commercialize it, or claim it's holy, or complain about the name, or you can just enjoy it. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM MAX< GET THIS SOCIOPATH OFF MUDCAT! I CAN"T STAND IT ANYMORE! DAMMIT< DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIM! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM Christmas has twelve days,as we all surely know from the song. (So "Kwanza" would be the Second to Eighth day of Christmas). The Epiphany on 6th January is the last day of Christmas, in the Western tradition. Or in the Orthodox tradition, the 6th is the first day of Christmas. Or "Old Christmas Day", as it is sometimes called. Noone has ever seriously suggested that Christmas Day is supposed to be Jesus's actual birthday, it's just a day picked to celebrate it, at a time of the year when a celebration is needed, and is generally held in most Northern Hemisphere cultures. (And to match up with it March 25th was picked to celebrate the Annunciation.) I always think it's rough on people in the Southern hemisphere, having Christmas in the middle of summer, and no equivalent feast in the middle of winter, so far as I am aware. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:59 PM Whew! Hey, Martin... you should give a little more thought about the effect of being sold in slavery, as you can certainly identify with it as a jew. The Africans that were sold as slaves weren't one people, like the jews, and didn't even have a common language, let alone a common spiritual heritage. When my wife and I went to Ghana a couple of years ago, it was daunting to find out that there are over 50 different languages, just in Ghana. And do you really believe that a race that could build the pyramids didn't have any holidays? C'mon, Martin... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: tarheel Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:55 PM oh...come on folks...dont go knocking this holiday.,... geeezz, ive already bought kwanza gifts for everyone, putting up a kwanza tree outside on december 26th, joining in and going door to door singing kwanza carols with all my friends, you know man...like you know!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:54 PM Your right about that. St Patrick's day is a day I completely ignore while I watch others get shit-faced drunk in the name of being Irish. Not very intellectual. However, it's been around a while and definately has some folklore about the snakes being driven out and all that. However, it's a day about booze and not much more. do you get shit-faced drunk on St. Patrick's day, Mary? Oh come on, I'm sure you hoist a few. Personally, I don't think Afro-americans had any holidays stripped from them, they just didn't have any. And if they did, it's their fault that they have not been able to keep their own culture intact over the generations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: mg Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:44 PM Why would anyone begruge anyone else a harmless, and in fact, beneficial to society holiday. I have never felt the need to send Kwanza cards made by Hallmark, any more than I send other cards. If I felt the need to send a card, I could print one on my computer or draw one myself. Hallmark has really very little impact on me financially or otherwise. And this is a group of people, in large African Americans although I presume everyone can participate, whose ancestral holidays were stripped from them, and who probably didn't get that much celebration during the "American" holidays. So for heaven's sake. I bet you don't like St. Patrick's day either and it is my very favorite day of the year. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:19 PM SRS, I do like those holidays such as the ones that you mentioned with the exception of Earth Day which is also an invented holiday that is self serving to a special interest group. The other holidays are certified national holidays and observances for all peoples of America, and does not require you to buy a Hallmark card. You are truly comparing apples to oranges and I don't at all buy into it. Kwanzaa is something Hallmark jumped on the bandwagon with. It is of a newly created, self-serving, me-too type of non-observance created for the self-estemm of a special interest group. Who needs a special day to do what is mandated by this so called holiday? Sorry, but recognizing this day for anything other than some politically correct reason is just another sneseless far left liberal cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: alanabit Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:18 PM I shouldn't think any of that would sound too different to one of the original disciples of Jesus! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:09 PM MartinGibson, are you upset that the origins of this observation are visible? So I guess you don't like Earth Day, or the Fourth of July, or Memorial Day, Labor Day, or Veteran's Day?
December, 1994 Kwanzaa is organized around five fundamental activities: 1) ingathering of the people which reaffirms the bonds between them; 2) special reverence for the Creator and creation which recognizes and reaffirms the bond of mutuality between the divine, social and the natural; 3) commemoration of the past which is directed toward honoring and emulating the ancestors and understanding the meaning and obligations of our history; 4) recommitment to our highest cultural values, especially our moral and spiritual ones; and 5) celebration of the Good of life, i.e., life itself, love, sisterhood/brotherhood, family, community, the earth and universe, the human person and human possibilities, our struggle, history and culture. http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:07 PM All holidays are created for a special interest group, Martin... Or maybe "invented" isn't the right word. Some, like Christmas and Hannakuh are a rememberance of a particular event, as is the 4th of July. Holidays like Veteran's Day and Labor day are an observance of a "special interest" group, I guess you could say. But it is not a remberance of a particular event. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: MMario Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:53 PM Guest - January 6th is the BEGINNING of the Feast of Epiphany. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:46 PM Kwanzaa appears to be a holiday created for a special interest group. mmario, your explanation doesn't justify this piece of politically correct invented holiday drivel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: GUEST Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM Christmas is also an invention of marketers, at least as we celebrate it today. Depending upon which Christian country you are from, or your ancestors were from, and whether you/they are celebrants of Eastern Rite, Roman Catholic, or Protestant (not to mention which calendar is used), the date of the winter celebration we in the US and parts of Western Europe refer to as "Christmas" can differ from today (Happy St. Nicholas' Day!) to the end of the Feast of Epiphany on January 6th. So you see, not even all Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th. The idea that this is a universal Christian holiday is totally erroneous, and a belief usually held by poorly educated Americans, who have a tendency not to see beyond their own noses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:05 PM Kwanzaa (two "a"s) is indeed a recent celebration. It is clebrated from December 26 to January 1st and does not have any religious significance, as Martin points out. While a little scepticism is always in order, from everything I've read about the creation of Kwanzaa it was not started to be another Hallmark moment. (You can read all about it yourself, rather than guessing, if you type Kwanzaa in Search.) I believe that it was started to honor the heritage of Africans and African Americans. I have no idea how widely it is celebrated in Africa, but in the U.S. I think that it's observed more by younger African American families than the older ones. Because it is not really celebrated in church, it's observance is basically an individual choice, depending on how much meaning the observation has. We get a couple of Kwanzaa cards a year, so if we're any indication (and we have a large African American side of our family and many African American friends) it hasn't yet become a major celebration in the black community. It's always best if you don't really know much about something, to read about it on the internet. No sense guessing, when the information is at your fingertips. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:05 PM Never heard of it. Is it specific to the USA? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: MMario Date: 06 Dec 04 - 01:00 PM Yes - that is factual. It doesn't mean that it can't have deep signifigance for people who have either grown up celebrating it or who have adopted it as a holiday for their children. As people frequently like to point out - the major christian denominations "stole" most of their holy days from older religions - as some neo-pagans take commercial Christmas songs and re-work them as "Solstice Carols" or "Yule Carols" everything was newly invented at some point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Clinton Hammond Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:59 PM Aren't they all? I mean, they were ALL 'invented' at some time or other... |
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Subject: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday From: Once Famous Date: 06 Dec 04 - 12:54 PM On a talk show that I was listening to this morning I heard an Afro-American caller rip Kwanza as being an invented marketing holiday that was benefitting no one really except merchants and industries that have the Kwanza merchandise market cornered. It appears this holiday which is not really a holiday (holy day) has no religious principal and was invented in 1966. I found it interesting that the Afro-American caller criticized it for what it really appears to be, a Hallmark holiday. It was obviously invented to correspond to and capitalize on the already existing holiday season. |